Be a Joan: Discussion with Loki Mulholland

Interview with Emmy-winning filmmaker, author, and activist Loki Mulholland, son of civil rights activist Joan Trumpauer Mulholland, discussing his films (including The Uncomfortable Truth) and books She Stood for Freedom and Get Back to the Counter. Loki explains his unusual name and how his mother named her sons after people who overcame adversity, then describes how he learned key details of his mother’s activism largely through photos, textbooks, and later anniversaries rather than family storytelling. He reflects on his mother’s fraught relationship with her segregationist mother and argues people must engage family and communities to end racism, using empathy and “intellectual nonviolence” to challenge beliefs. Loki describes how Joan carried activism into daily life and education without centering herself.

Links:

Get Back to the Counter

She Stood for Freedom

The Joan Trumpauer Mulholland Foundation

The Uncomfortable Truth

Donate

Transcript

Katy 0:00

Okay, I think we're here.

Mandy 0:03

Yeah, we are.

Katy 0:05

special guest day. It feels, I know, I feel like when I was a classroom teacher and we would have a guest speaker or a field trip or something, it just feels exciting. Not that I don't love to see just Mandy old hat at this point.

Mandy 0:19

Yeah.

Katy 0:20

we are super, super lucky to have with us today, I almost said in studio as if we're that fancy, to have an actual studio at our respective homes via Zoom. We are here with Loki Mulholland, an Emmy award-winning filmmaker, author, activist which we have a lot of questions about all of those things. But how we even connected and thought to reach out to Loki is that he is the son of Joan Trump Hour, Mulholland incredible activists and iconic white women. I was saying to Loki before we started, there are just so depressingly few. White women in history who I think we can look to people who have been listening to our podcast know that we will every once in a while have Kate shots on to teach us about a white woman who wasn't upholding white supremacy. And we're just thrilled to have Loki with us today to talk about his own activism and work. But also his mom. He has done a lot of films on race and social justice. I just watched The Uncomfortable Truth on Amazon, which was fantastic. There's other films available on Showtime, PBS. Amazon will link to that documentary in the show notes. And then he's written a children's book that I actually knew about before we even started doing. These episodes. The book she stood for Freedom is a fantastic book and then Get Back to the Counter is a book that, we were able to order copies of through the Joan Trump Hour, Mulholland Foundation. And it's a book we'll talk a lot about today. Also, a fantastic read and one of the best books I've read in a long time that has reflection questions built into it that are legit good, like really provocative thought, just they were not there just to be there at the end of a section. They were just really powerful questions, so cannot wait to get into that with you. Loki, welcome. Hello.

Loki 2:22

So well, thank you.

Katy 2:24

Yay. Anything that I miss that you would want people to know about or any corrections.

Loki 2:31

No, no corrections. I was just, I was literally thinking, and it's actually in the book, but I was thinking about, you used having you mentioned my mother, It's always

Katy 2:38

Oh,

Loki 2:38

my mom, and it's all said and done. I get that. That's my life. But I remember going to a school, going through a, it's, it snowed today here in Virginia, but this was back in Utah and I had to drive through the snow to get to the school, this, assembly. And, it's because you were mentioning about, having guest speakers at your school and stuff when you were, in education, it was like, yeah, no, I was the rock star, right? Because have there, the kids are coming in oh wow, this is cool. And my mom calls in the middle of the assembly it was like. They were like, they had this question and I was like, oh, my mom's calling. Why won't we, why don't we just ask her? So I put her on the phone, speaker phone, and she talked to the kids

Katy 3:14

oh my gosh.

Loki 3:14

it was like, yeah the rock star was eclipsed by the superstar. It was just like, yeah. It was like, oh Yeah, that's

Katy 3:20

okay. Now, was that a planned phone call? Is that a That is, oh my gosh. I love it.

Loki 3:26

in my pocket, 'cause my phone rang. It was like, why don't even have this on during this assembly? But so

Katy 3:32

There she is.

Loki 3:33

it's mom, it's always Mom.

Katy 3:35

I love that. We really are. I'm struggling with where to start, whether, especially just having watched this film that you produced and wanting to ask you about your own career, in your own activism and how it's

Loki 3:47

That's always comes up, let, is,

Katy 3:49

Oh, great. Okay.

Loki 3:50

Yeah. So Lo Loki is my real name.

Mandy 3:55

Okay.

Loki 3:55

My, my brothers are Bino, Django, Jomo, and Geronimo. So she had five boys.

Katy 4:00

Love it. God bless your mom. By the way, I have two kids and a no. Just, I can't even wrap up my mind around that, honestly

Loki 4:08

row and hunted down by the clan, five boys is nothing. I guess

Mandy 4:11

was prepared.

Loki 4:12

she was

Katy 4:13

was perfect.

Loki 4:13

Yes. But

Katy 4:14

My God.

Loki 4:15

She,

Katy 4:16

I,

Loki 4:16

story she tells I don't know if it's true or not, but the story she tells is that she won the name us after, people that that we could, that, that overcame something. Now, Bino was the exception After that it was like, that's name. So Binos real name was Daniel after our father. Bino was a nickname for And She he originated in Italy then when he was born in the US and and the doctor, was this Italian guy. He said, oh, the Bambinos here. So ba

Mandy 4:42

I don't care,

Katy 4:42

Oh.

Loki 4:43

after that, so my brother Jengo is named after Jengo Reinhardt, who's the

Katy 4:48

Oh my gosh.

Loki 4:49

who had to, had, I guess in a fire, had his hand was damaged. He had to learn how to play guitar with, this basically one hand, one and a half, maybe. Ju

Katy 4:58

Unbelievable musician. Yeah.

Loki 5:00

president of Kenya, took on the British Army oftentimes from jail. And Loki, the Norris got a mischief. It's actually today just someone had his as, it's is that Marvel? I'm like, yeah that's fine. If that's your reference point.

Katy 5:13

Something came before Marvel.

Loki 5:14

Thousands of years before. And then and then Geronimo, the Apache Warrior, who they took on US Army, and I took a quarter of the US Army to bring him in. She thought We could live up to. She

Katy 5:24

When? I think as a parent, as a mom, that the act of naming your children is such a massive responsibility. And I when we named our kids, we also imbued it with a lot of meaning, and my name is just a name my parents liked, so I had nothing to live up to with my own name. I'm curious how that felt for you growing up, or how that, how your relationship with your name has changed over time.

Loki 5:51

My first name was actually Jeremiah and that was, I like to, people like,

Katy 5:54

I,

Loki 5:54

oh, man's very biblical, right? It's no. I was born in 1972. Three Dog Night. Jeremiah was a Bullfrog was the hit song the year before. I like to say it.

Mandy 6:03

more.

Loki 6:03

Yeah, so I,

Katy 6:05

yeah.

Loki 6:05

didn't even know it was my first name. I, because I was told I was named after this song, but I was never called Jeremiah. I was always called Loki. So I didn't know how they got Jeremiah out of that song. And then in junior high you know my, I have an identical twin that's Geronimo we were we went to Junior high school, and then they put us in separate teams in like separate rooms even it was the Green Gold team. And so he wasn't in the same room, so they kept calling for Jeremiah Mulhall and Jeremiah Mulhall. And I'm like looking around oh, who's got the same last name? 'cause night Geronimo Germo is not, and they're not mispronouncing Geronimo. And suddenly it was like, wait, Jeremiah three? I was like I raised my hand 'cause I wasn't here on Loki. And then

Katy 6:42

Oh man.

Loki 6:43

and I said, mom,

Katy 6:44

I'm sure some teachers,

Loki 6:45

yeah,

Katy 6:47

oh, I'm sure some teachers were just writing a little note next to the attendance list, like kid doesn't know his own name. Keep an eye on this one.

Loki 6:53

I went home, I said, mom, my name's Jeremiah. She said, yeah. And that was it. Because, when you go to elementary school, what's your name? Let's Lokey.

Katy 6:59

Yeah.

Loki 7:00

But we,

Katy 7:01

Yeah.

Loki 7:02

yeah. I'm sorry. I was just say, because you

Katy 7:03

I remember.

Loki 7:04

sort of burden, it hasn't changed over time. Yeah. There were times where we didn't use, Geronimo went by Mo DJ went by his first name, which is by his Name, which is Frank. There were different times that happened. I didn't have anything to go So it was just Loki and now, but, of course now, I got the g when I got the high school, it's no it's Loki. Then today, of course, the burden became when, Marvel was so huge and, you go into a place, they take your name down and then they would announce your name, Outback or something. And everyone would look around for Loki they felt like Loki had walked into the room. It was like, it got so annoying. I'll just give, make up names. I'm just like, it doesn't matter. So it's not there. Their story of the names got outta the way.

Katy 7:48

Love it.

Mandy 7:48

You said your

Katy 7:49

You said your mom.

Mandy 7:50

those names

Katy 7:51

Use those things because she wanted to iue this

Mandy 7:53

overcoming Or

Katy 7:54

overcoming something or,

Mandy 7:55

I know

Katy 7:56

but you also, I know mentioned in your book that you

Mandy 7:58

a

Katy 7:59

hadn't heard a lot about her activism

Mandy 8:01

you didn't hear the

Katy 8:02

growing. You didn't hear the story of the

Mandy 8:04

I think

Katy 8:05

sit-in and tell you where, I think 39 was the first time she told it

Loki 8:08

and we say in the beginning of

Katy 8:09

or

Loki 8:09

an

Katy 8:10

Wow.

Loki 8:10

It's my mother never told us the stories. All we knew were the pictures So the pictures were there and we, it As a kid you don't really know what you're looking, it's like you just don't know. And. We'd have the civil rights people come to the house and stuff, but these were just Friends from, college days who wants to hear their parents talk about their college days when you're 10 years old.

Katy 8:28

Yeah.

Loki 8:28

This is old people talking at this point. But we knew the, The Jackson sit-in photo has the famous one where they're pouring the stuff on her head and she likes to say I'm not sweet enough already 'cause it's sugar. We knew that was an important photo. There was a, a photo of her and Dr. King and so forth. But beyond that, all the other stuff, it was just like, that was just mom. And we really didn't know the stories behind it all. And it wasn't until then the freedom rise that the mugshots were re were released 'cause they were, kept on lock and key for so many years. And then we released those photos and then it became the 50th anniversary that somebody's oh, what's a freedom I really didn't know. And I, growing up into all this. I don't really know all the details. There's, there's more that I knew than most people, but,

Katy 9:09

Yeah.

Loki 9:09

forgotten about the Freedom Rides that point. The real significance came the first time was Were in high school

Katy 9:15

yeah.

Loki 9:16

and we got the new history books, and there was the photo of my mom. It's like, why is the, the sit-in. It's like, why is mom in a history book? And then college a summer semester at University of North Dakota and with Professor John Salter. Now Professor Salter was my Professor at Tougaloo, and he was the one sitting at the lunch counter with her and Ann Moody. so he introduced me to, I was sitting in the class and he introduced me The son of, the civil And I was like, oh, weird. That was the first time that ever happened.

Katy 9:48

We, we were just reading a book by a historian named Elizabeth Gillespie McRay. It's called Mothers of Massive Resistance, and it's basically about like the women of the South who are the

Loki 10:01

Oh

Katy 10:01

who were deeply invested in activism and organizing to build Jim Crow and sustain Jim Crow. And just how it's a great read. It's really enlightening. And basically one of her arguments is how sexist history often has ignored these women, but they actually were the engines of a lot of how white supremacy got constructed and maintained and still happens today. But there's a moment towards the later chapters where she's talking about this young woman who's about your mom's age in this photograph, who she has a picture of this, probably 18-year-old. White woman from the south and that she won an essay contest explaining why Jim Crow was so great, basically. And of course, Mandy and I can be petty when we're doing the history. Mandy, especially, I will give her flowers here. And so

Loki 10:55

yeah.

Katy 10:56

we both went on to social media to see if this woman was still alive, and she still is. And she has Facebook and she has kids and grandkids, and we don't know if she knows that her picture's in this book. We actually asked Elizabeth when we interviewed her, and she said that she's thought about this too. Yeah, I don't know. And we've thought, what would it be like to be a student in a class in college? And you open it up and you see your grandma's picture as an example of white supremacy. So just hearing you talk about how the inverse is true for you, you open a textbook and see. A picture of your mom as like central to a social movement that is dedicated to justice. And I just wonder of what was that like to be able to have that?

Loki 11:39

recall. it was just like, oh, what do you know?

Katy 11:43

I,

Loki 11:44

That's not the only time. I still get those moments today. And particularly when people come up to us and, and thank my mom, people who are in tears. And this is not just people from that time. And there, there's, there are those, but there's younger generations who were just, that she was willing to do something. And quite frankly, I hear this quite a bit. It's it's just nice to know that there's some decent white people out there, in the face of everything that is going on today. it means a lot. And that's something that she symbolizes. And there's a lot of meaning going on with my mom right now, And which is understandable. Yeah.

Mandy 12:16

I thought that so much while

Katy 12:17

I thought that so much while I was reading. To

Mandy 12:19

the Counter, I was

Katy 12:19

get back to the counter, Parallels,

Mandy 12:21

clearly came

Katy 12:22

because this clearly came out before

Mandy 12:25

administration

Katy 12:26

administration and everything that's going on now, and

Loki 12:29

From

Katy 12:29

there's just so many similarities in it that

Loki 12:32

These women,

Katy 12:33

very instructive I think.

Loki 12:35

stuff, we have to remember that, it's the United Doors of the Confederacy that the wands that, put everything on supercharged it, with that led to all the lynchings and so forth. So

Katy 12:44

Yes.

Loki 12:44

is the statutes, this is rewriting the history books, the Lost Cause narrative and stuff. And it's, it's an interesting play because

Katy 12:52

Yep. Yes.

Loki 12:53

to assume it's because of how much they benefited under

Katy 12:56

I.

Loki 12:57

And the protections that were afforded them the way that they were lifted up. Even if their husbands were probably scumbags and beating 'em, let's just be frank about these guys. 'Cause these Klans people weren't great people and begin with. And so Were able to

Katy 13:09

Yes. Yeah. There's power. If you have power over someone, even if there's, you're still lower on the ladder. You are it's scary to think you would lose what little power you have.

Loki 13:21

And you think about Emmett Till and Judge Tom Brady and his Black Monday book, Which he was, and this is a judge, Talk about institutional. Is a judge going around talking about, the Integration, the school integration stuff and Black Monday is referencing Brown versus board we're gonna emphasize nation and we're gonna lose the white race. Great replacement theory, things we hear today and that we must protect Women. And it's the duty of every Anglo, white Anglo-Saxon man

Katy 13:46

Yeah.

Loki 13:47

If you get fed that enough times,

Katy 13:48

Yes.

Loki 13:49

What does that do to you?

Katy 13:50

It, it's just such a poison, like a poisonous cult.

Loki 13:54

That's the

Katy 13:55

you mentioned your grandmother who comes up and is such a central part of the, one of your films, the Uncomfortable Truth. And then she also makes appearances in the book Get Back to the Counter. And I was really fascinated by the relationship and I like Mandy, I couldn't stop thinking about today when I was reading the book and. Just how many people have cut ties with family members over politics and this kind of wave of people drawing these lines in the sand and saying you're out. I'm not going to have you as part of our life anymore. And I, there were just enough pieces from what you shared in the book that it, it sounds like it was a very fraught relationship that your mother and grandmother had, but also that it, it existed and that she had a relationship with her grandkids and, she was reaching out to your mom in her later years. And I just wondered if you could talk a little bit about how you make sense of that relationship.

Loki 14:55

I think a big part of that was, was my mom just, she was daddy's girl and just loved her father tremendously. And who he did not, agreed with the, with the goals of the movement. He didn't agree with their tactics, but he also didn't want his darted little To get killed. But they him and my grandmother just agreed

Katy 15:14

Interesting.

Loki 15:15

when it came to things about race and so forth. And

Katy 15:17

Yeah.

Loki 15:18

it

Katy 15:18

Yeah.

Loki 15:18

My mom likes to say, the woman ruled the roost. This is my house. They had a guess. She's Home, was it that's that movie. Guess she's coming home to dinner, whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah. Cindy Pointier, I think it was. They had a moment like that. My grandmother father worked for the State

Katy 15:30

Oh, GU, he's coming to dinner.

Loki 15:32

Africa, dignitary or something came over for dinner and my mother, my grandmother would not leave the kitchen. It's I can't believe you brought someone like that into our house. It's he didn't do it again, for years. But that was my, that was just Way. My grandmother was raised and I said in the uncomfortable truth, She was a great grandmother for us. She was, we went to McDonald's once a week. It was wonderful. She was a wonderful grandmother. The, my mom she didn't even recognize my mom got a degree from Tougaloo College 'cause that was a black school. And the things came at this sort of, We'll there's a thaw in the relationship of sorts in regard once the kid grandkids came. But it was never, my, and my grandmother, my mother would've to remind my grandmother about, can't use those type of words in front of the kids and so forth. But dying breath, she was a segregationist. But it's, It's interesting. So what do you do when you have family members like that? A lot of people we have this sort of,

Katy 16:26

Wow.

Loki 16:27

All the bridges sort of mentality these days cutting people out and And I've said this before, if you really wanna end racism, then you have to actually work with the races. Let's be fair Otherwise, you're not ending anything, right? Because those people are still gonna be around, they're still gonna teach their kids just like that. You wonder about that lady that was in the book, right? And she's got these grandkids and stuff. Those things are still gonna take place. But you have to meet people where they're at. And I use the term intellectual

Katy 16:52

Yep.

Loki 16:54

Meet people with that and bring them along. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them. Doesn't mean you have to keep 'em in, keep 'em in your circles all the time. But if you're just gonna go to guns on Not really about ending racism. You're about, likes on social media and whatever else. Easy thing for me to say as a white person, right? But racism is a white disease. We ask everyone else to cure. And so it really should be upon me. Once had, my mother and I were speaking at this law firm. And this is in 2020 it was all

Katy 17:24

Yeah.

Loki 17:24

and stuff, international law firm. And soon at the

Katy 17:26

I,

Loki 17:27

it, asked this question, says, do you think you're taken away from Black Voices by speaking? And I said let's just be honest. If you were listening to Black Voices, we wouldn't be here talking to you. Let's have that discussion, Let's be fair. And the fact is that white people don't want to hear black people talk about it,

Mandy 17:44

Nice.

Loki 17:45

'cause they're just complaining. Can't you

Katy 17:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Loki 17:47

over it? Those internal things come to play, within majority of white people, People like, oh my gosh, we gotta hear about this again. Come January, we'll get a ton of phone calls about people wanting us to come speak in February, because they just realized that Black History Month is happening again. But the messenger is just as important as the message. And so if it's It from me and to see my mom's story, to see my, see yourself in the story. That's the power of my mom, by the way is they can people, white people can see themselves as part of the narrative and a positive part of the narrative. 'cause there are positive parts in that respects that, okay, then Something too. If that helps get it down easier, then great. That's oftentimes why we are asked to speak because it's like, yeah I know why we're here.

Mandy 18:34

And I think

Katy 18:34

Think that brings out a couple of points

Mandy 18:37

book where

Katy 18:37

from the book where it talks about

Mandy 18:39

the two points I was

Katy 18:41

the two points I was thinking about. One is the humility.

Mandy 18:43

Knowing your limits and where you're needed, and asking what people would like for you to do, where they would like you to be active, where you would be

Katy 18:53

Where you would be most helpful.

Mandy 18:54

And I think your comment about, supremacy is a white disease and we need to address that and be the ones who are fighting that, rather than asking everyone else to cure it.

Katy 19:04

Right.

Mandy 19:05

also the part that comes up later in the book about empathy, And being able to sit with people and listen to them and

Loki 19:12

Yeah.

Mandy 19:13

perspective, which as you said, does not mean that you're giving To it or saying that it's

Loki 19:17

Yeah. It's challenging say the least. Yeah, I had an individual who came to me once who was a coworker a Middle aged, white guy. He said, he To my room and, office and closed the door and was like, Hey, do you know, do you really believe that the confederate flag is racist? Now, instinctively my mind is going, what? Are you an idiot? But I knew why he was asking this question because this, they were started lowering, removing the flags from the state capitol buildings after Dylan Roof had, shot everyone in the church in South Carolina. I knew where he was coming from. I said what does it represent again, that was using this Intellectual non-violence? Ask a question, get people thinking,

Katy 19:53

Yes.

Loki 19:53

right? So it was like don't know. Wow. He had never thought about it. His frame of reference asked him this, but I was a hundred percent sure of reference to the Confederate flag was Dukes of Hazard. The generally was painted on top of the car. Just some good old boys never make no harm. Yeah. Then I said, okay,

Katy 20:11

Oh yeah.

Loki 20:12

The states that's seceded from the union. The Civil War and all that. He goes yeah. I said why did they SEC succeed? He said state rights. So I said, okay, the right to do what? Again, a question. I wasn't gonna sit

Katy 20:22

Mandy's favorite phrase by the way. It like triggers her so hard. Yeah.

Loki 20:26

They got their soundbites and that's it. So I said the right to do what? He says own people like slavery, that's the term we can use that. It's okay. I said slavery racist? He goes yeah, of course. I said, okay racist, and the confederate flag must be, he goes, yeah, I just never thought of it that way. I said and the reason you This is because of, you know what I explained before about the, lowering the flags? I said, now, do you know why those flags were put on there in the first place, the state capitals? He goes, no. I said, okay. They were put up during Jim Crow, segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. It was saying that the federal Cannot tell us what to do, state rights. were on to integrate schools and so forth, right? So they were taking their stand. Now is segregation and Jim Crow racist? Yeah. Okay. So if

Katy 21:08

Yep.

Loki 21:08

then that's the Confederate flag must be racist. He goes, okay, great. Yeah, I never thought of it that way. Now I know this guy voted for Trump every single time. I'm a hundred percent positive. gonna go to join some Black Lives Matter rally or anything like that. But If I had blown 'em up, If I went to guns on them, What would I have done? And like to the point of Sitting down and talking with people, and you might not agree anything, but at least they know a little bit more and have some perspective. And those, they feel there's a place they can come to, a person they can come to and speak to about some of these things. And that's a start. There's that gentleman was an African American gentleman who's helped like a bunch of clansmen, I think over a hundred. Turn in their robes, right? Leave the clan. Just by having conversations with him. Now he could do that. Not a lot of black people can do that. He feels comfortable doing that. I don't know the whole story behind how he does that. I think it's a lot through music and stuff, but that's not for everybody, but that's for him, that's his gift, He can do. But if you're not willing to do the work, then you're not really about the work. And my mom and that Element in particular was, didn't, center herself. I know how to do all this. Maybe She was a veteran when she would come into a lot of these situations. But it's like the people there know how to do this. I'm just there to show up however you need me.

Katy 22:32

yes. That really struck me so much because Mandy and I wrestle with this a lot too, like how to explore these histories, learn about these people without recentering whiteness. Or one reason we, one reason we don't learn about a lot of white people fighting racism is because there just literally have not been that many, so that's one. But I, what I loved about the book was that. It resists the temptation to put your mom on a pedestal. And that's not the point of the book, and that's not the point of sharing her story. It's to say what are the lessons that she learned? Sometimes the hard way that we, the readers, especially as white women who are also mothers, like what can we take away to do in our lives? So it's not about saying oh, don't hashtag not all white people, because sometimes I think that is the reason white people are looking for, it's we I'll say this story. So we interviewed, this has been a few years has some Kwame who's a professor of history and just an amazing historian and he said, I tell my students like who here thinks they would've been part of the Underground Railroad, as white people. And everyone raises their hand. He is no I'm gonna tell you statistically, that's just not true. Also, take a look at what you're doing right now. That's what you would've been doing then. And I think there's this temptation sometimes for white people to so desperately want to hold on to someone to say, see, we're not that bad. Or it's not that bad. And I love how you share your mom's story because it never comes across that there's no room for that in the way you share these stories. It's about, it's an invitation to learn from your mom's work and legacy and to apply it to our lives. And there's no getting Out, there's no like escape patch. I guess. Like you even talk about this in the film that we watched, that you talk about family history being so powerful and. That, that you, it shapes who you are, but it doesn't define who you are. And mentioned, I think in the book about your mom not ever feeling shame at the history she came from, but feeling doubly responsible.

Loki 24:47

sometimes when I'm speaking is okay, lemme just say none of this is your fault. 'cause it isn't, I'm not blaming you for slavery. You never, you didn't, none of us owned anybody here today, hopefully. But people Don't you feel guilty for what your did? I'm like

Katy 25:00

Yeah. Hopefully

Loki 25:00

no.

Katy 25:01

who knows anymore, but yes.

Loki 25:02

Have any control over that. Do I feel a responsibility going forward? yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah.

Katy 25:10

I think people have a hard time holding those two things.

Mandy 25:13

Just

Katy 25:13

Just like the ability to listen to someone and

Mandy 25:16

and understand them

Katy 25:17

them without agreeing.

Mandy 25:18

them, or the ability to feel that responsibility without feeling the guilt. Like people just can't seem to reconcile that in their minds. And I think

Loki 25:28

yeah.

Mandy 25:29

these, his writing your mom's history the way that you did, and I'm sure that's also a reflection of her and how she

Katy 25:36

She

Mandy 25:36

it in her

Katy 25:37

lived it in her life. I think it's really helpful and instructive.

Loki 25:40

I think important to also understand is how view racism. white people,

Katy 25:46

It is. Yeah.

Loki 25:47

and this is how, like I'm not, why I'm not a racist, because we view racism in the sense of black and white photographs of the civil rights movement. The lynchings and so forth. The clan. I'm not a, I'm not wearing clan robes and I'm not, the person in the mob attacking my mom, so thus I'm not a racist. That's racist. I can point to that. That's obvious. I'm not doing that. So thus I'm not, so don't tell me that's what I am.

Katy 26:08

Right.

Loki 26:09

African Americans, they see racism, more broadly in the context of institutional, And then the microaggressions, everything else that plays into all these things. So there's a broader element to understand that. And while you might not be The Who's denying someone alone from in redlining and things like that, we all do play a role in that. And as my mother once said I can't do everything, but I could do something because doing nothing's not an option. And we have to do that something. That's what she chose to do. And we get people. Yeah. people would've been abolitionists? I get people, I'm like, oh, I would've been right there with your mom at the lunch counter. I'm like, great, but what are you doing today? To your point that, that would put you in the room to even have that conversation, that they would trust you with your life, with their very That you wouldn't cut bait and run when you got pulled away from that counter, Know, would you go back, would you even enter the room to begin with once you saw what was happening? So I, yeah, I understand that completely. What The counter. I have no idea. don't A special kind of crazy they had my mom and John and others. I would like to think I would, but again, to my mom's point we, we don't have to do that, but we have to do something.

Katy 27:23

I, to that point, there was some, I, there's so much I appreciated about reading your book at this exact moment of. Our political time, but also my personal life. Mandy and I both have kids. Mandy's kids are just a step older than mine are. Mine are elementary school. And I think a lot about even when you you showed a picture in the film of your elementary class and I thought, oh my gosh, this is very similar where, we intentionally chose where we're sending our kids to school in the neighborhood. It's the neighborhood school. It's super diverse and it's a beautiful school. I love it so much, but our actual, like the street we live on and the surrounding blocks are very white, and it's very similar to what you described about your own childhood, like your own upbringing. And I think a lot about how explicit. It's never a choice of whether these are the values, these are our values as a family, but it's the decision for like how explicit to be, whether I take the kids to a demonstration or just tell them about it later, or wait for them to ask me or, all of those questions. And I really appreciate it. In the book where you mentioned that once your mom especially has five kids and then is a single mom on top of that, that there's seasons of activism in different ways that she was involved. So could you talk a little bit about. The degree to which you feel comfortable, as your mom is just so deeply embedded and like the forced Gump of the Civil Rights Movement, just in all these places and moments. And then from, the research that I could do, it's, there's a jump that, and then she, got married, had five kids, and, I'm curious about that, the transition from that intense season to a different season. What do you feel comfortable sharing about that?

Loki 29:12

It's essentially, 'cause there are those in the movement who didn't know how to leave, who

Katy 29:16

Okay.

Loki 29:17

kept on they were still in their college days in the fight and stuff. There was there's moments for everything and your rolls in the, my mother saw herself as a student in the student movement. So once she graduated, it's oh, I'm no longer a student, so it doesn't make sense for me to hang around. So she, got on with the next phase of her life Wasn't so involved, 'cause obviously I shouldn't say obviously, but she graduated in 64. The Selma of Montgomery. March was 65, so she was part of that. And then, the Meredith March against Fear was 66, I think. So she was, went back down Tougaloo for part of that. So she was constantly, definitely involved in different movements as well. That she was in, participated in the anti-war movements and things as well. And then later on, anti-apartheid and whatever, half movement will It's interesting 'cause that ex, that explicit As we as thinking about, I didn't think about this until you mentioned it, it's why did my mom still live in that white neighborhood? Why does she live in that white neighborhood with those kids? We had this diverse school, but why was she in a white neighborhood? My dad lived a block and a half away. That's where they lived. We were in school. Didn't want us to be, didn't wanna be next to my dad clearly, she wanted us close enough to our dad just to have a relationship. And she didn't wanna move us out of our school, so that's why that house became available. So she stayed in the neighborhood because that's one of our friends were, and our lives But,

Katy 30:32

Yeah.

Loki 30:33

She found other ways to the movement within us.

Katy 30:37

Yep.

Loki 30:38

we didn't sit down and have conversations about the civil rights movement. Yes, her friends would come over and when they talked about the movement, we were obligated to sit there for a good 10, 15 minutes to be polite children, to listen, and then we could go and play. So we did grow up on it. In that regards, there's, my brother's name is Jomo, right? Kenyata. Only I'm safe to say the only personally autographed Of Jumbo Kenyata, probably on the eastern seaboard, right? At the very least. Definitely Virginia. I'll go out my way and say, the Eastern seaboard, right? to my grandfather worked in the State Department. Someone and they got it signed, 'cause for my brother that hangs on the wall that's hung, hung on the walls I remember. We don't have a traditional Walmart home. I don't, we never had any family photos on, we had photos of, we had, of Native Americans and and Southeast Asians and, and like jumbo kenyata and so forth. Particularly Native Americans 'cause, my brother's name's drawing all so on one wall is jumbo kenyata. When you go through that doorway, archway into the dining room from the living room. On the other side of that wall in the dining room is Geronimo the Apache That was our home and all the civil rights books and everything else. Desmond Tutu was coming to town, Hey, let's go listen to him speak and, oh, there's an anniversary March, let's go do that. To, she went to Tougaloo College in HBCU, so we would go to the the summer barbecues and stuff. And that's when I really became aware that was something different. When the only white person in the space, it's like, what what school did she go to? It just never dawned on me until I was probably like nine years old. It was like, wait a second. Was never anything, just, yeah. It was just became, it was just part of life of how and how she lived. A lot of Southeast Asians, from Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos and stuff that came after the Right? so a lot of our friends, were from there because that's where we went to school. And so te New Year and those sort of things, right? So we would, participate in a lot of the folk festivals and things that, right? Was just natural thing to support our friends. my mom saw that as an opportunity for us to broaden our horizons, right? So that's how she lived, continues to live to this day as an So she was a teacher's aide. She'd become a teacher because she said I'm not getting paid that much more and I have more responsibility, so why bother? but she became, she was a teacher's aide and the classes that she had, she would, bring those life lessons into it and talk about,

Katy 33:03

Yeah

Loki 33:03

the

Katy 33:03

it's true.

Loki 33:04

and stuff. black History Month come around, or, king's Day and stuff. of the teachers knew who she was Hey, can you come and talk about this? And so she drag stuff out And do that. For the most part, no one knew she. Lived her life. Matter of fact, when we were doing an ordinary hero, I asked her, That we grew up with across the street and I said what was it like to live across the street from an ex-con who was on death row? They're like, who are you talking about? I was like mom, of course. They're like, what? We never knew that. Just people just didn't know. That didn't make it into the film. and lemme just say it if I can real quick. 'cause I think it's important. 'cause my mom says this. She just, we make it a big deal. My mom does not make it a big deal. This is what she did, right? It was an important part of her life. And she understands that and she recognizes it more now why it's important to other people. But that was just what you did. That was what her and her friends did. And it was this thing about sncc, the student non audit coordinating committee, with John Such that you didn't talk about yourself, you didn't put yourself in front of the movement. And you did it because it was the right thing to do and that was part of her life.

Katy 34:12

That comes through so clearly. No, I think that makes a lot of sense in that it, it just astounded me. All the episodes that you share from this era of your mom's life that are incredibly scary and near death and very easily could have ended in her death multiple times and just how at peace she seemed to have been even in the moment and matter of fact about it. What else, what should I be doing like this? This is almost like, it wasn't even a choice, like it's just what you do. The story you tell about her as a little girl where she. Some, was racing and a another kid fell and got hurt and she refused to keep competing to help the kid. And even though the adults were saying, get up, keep going, that she just has some like internal compass that just does not compute that

Mandy 35:03

yeah, I think that part of the book I really

Katy 35:05

Really appreciate

Mandy 35:06

talk

Loki 35:06

Yeah.

Katy 35:07

when you talk about focus. And I think that really clear that she did have this unwavering focus

Mandy 35:13

on

Katy 35:14

on an end goal of equality and, treating people the right way. And it didn't matter what

Mandy 35:22

in the

Katy 35:22

In the way of that, it never threw her off for focus.

Mandy 35:25

make

Katy 35:25

And you've making a comment in there about how that requires

Loki 35:28

Yeah.

Mandy 35:29

clear

Katy 35:29

very clear about who you are Yes.

Mandy 35:31

and where

Katy 35:32

And where your values lie. And I think that's a reflection point that you brought up in the book that I think is very valuable as a starting place for.

Mandy 35:40

to figure out where they can work in any sort of movement

Katy 35:44

of movement. It's just getting

Loki 35:46

The answer

Katy 35:47

clarity and that focus.

Loki 35:48

always amuses me. 'cause it's the same You can read the crowd when she says it because it's just oh darn it. Why'd she have to say that? 'Cause her answer is that's what I was taught in Sunday school. Those bible verses love thy neighbor as thyself and do unto others. You happen, do un unto you when you dump the least of these I breth and you're done. To me. She says, I just happen to believe it. So what does that mean about the rest of us?

Katy 36:07

Yep.

Loki 36:08

had to memorized when she was in, I think, high school the Declaration of Independence. So she believed in that idea

Katy 36:15

That's it.

Loki 36:16

all created equal. And we, we took that I took it and extended it one day. Now I It, but nonetheless. But

Katy 36:23

Yep.

Loki 36:23

I asked people, because it just

Katy 36:24

I.

Loki 36:24

Dawned on me, I said, how many people here have ever done the Pledge of Allegiance? We did that at Junior High School, as a matter of fact, of course, everyone, yeah. So you guys did it this morning, right? Yeah. I'm like, okay, so what did we say we're gonna do? and Justice for who? They said all. I'm like, what? What is that? All, all out. I'm like, okay, So either of our people of our word or we're not.

Katy 36:43

It is so powerful to think that built into these, like whether it's Christianity or American government, that, that have long histories of violence and oppression, but with within them are also these seeds of something radically different, that when we believe that it takes us some more. Totally. It gives us courage and sustenance to oppose those abuses. I loved your mom not really having any time for the northern white girls who were godless, communist heathens,

Mandy 37:13

when.

Katy 37:14

my, my sister just sent me a text. It's I don't know where this church is, but it's the nativity scene and they've taken out Mary Joseph and Baby Jesus and put a sign that says ICE was here. And I think that is speaking to this exact point, which is wake up. This is not the, in, in how are the, what's the disconnect between the lessons in this tradition and what its key tenets are, or even thinking about the way that some popular pastors are questioning they, they're saying that empathy and compassion are not good. It's it's just so shocking.

Loki 37:52

There was a back, this is back when they used to do international day and this sort of stuff and whatever. In elementary school, this, now this is the early seventies, Arlington, Virginia. Arlington's, this liberal bastion now, but gosh, it wasn't. No. But Used to have clam posters up and stuff, but music teacher asked her, about this, what can we do? And she said how We do lift every voice and sing? She's what's that? She goes,

Katy 38:13

o.

Loki 38:13

that was, you know what we, we call the black national anthem now. But it was like, oh, that's a great So every kid in the school learned at least the first verse of Lift every voice and sing to sing during this, international day type of thing at school banquet type of stuff. People would bring food from different countries and, but we learned, we all learned was the first time my mom said it was probably the first time ever in Arlington, probably Virginia, that a previously all School sang Lift Every Voice and Sing. But that's my mom purpose and knowing, coming back to that who she is and what she's about and seeing That are there. Not, do you mean you don't know that song? What are you a moron? Or blowing up the teacher, it's coming back. Thoughtful, constructive This comes back to that lunch counter and the appointment that you were saying about empathy that. She John Salter was the same as that. She said she empathized with those who were attacking him. Not that she agreed with them, but Empathized with them because he was their way of life, that they were, blowing up, if you will, by sitting at that lunch counter and that she could understand How they might feel. Again not, not agreeing with them, but going, okay, Am, if I'm in a place where I can understand how someone thinks and feels about something, I can have that conversation to start deconstructing. 'cause if you say in the uncomfortable truth, we like to put those walls up, those barriers if we like, we love, where we're at, right? And we protect that at all costs, particularly when we feel that it's under attack. But by having that constructive way of looking at it, someone had once said to me in my shoes. This was. Speaking of some engagement, I was like, sometimes you get those Just get upset. You don't walk in my shoes. And I said, you're right. I don't walk in your shoes, I know what it's like to wear shoes. We

Katy 40:00

Yeah.

Loki 40:00

Go have experiences, right? It might not be the exact same But they're pretty much universal, right? We've all felt certain ways isolated, only whatever we wanna say, all these sort of things. we just had to be able to recognize that for others, their experiences and going, oh, okay. Yeah. I remember when I was not picked, right? I wasn't picked because I was the worst player on the team, on the field. Not because I Right? But I know what it felt like. Gee, it was a horrible feeling. I never wanted to go through that again. Yeah. And then I willingness to be able to speak out. This is, I'm gonna drop some, I'm dropping pearls now here for a moment, but, This has happened. This happened just recently. Literally this happened, last week. And not the story I was gonna tell, I've had this happen a couple times. The civil rights activists prepared themselves when they would go out and do something the sooner at the lunch counters, right? The Freedom Rides. You had to know how you're gonna respond when you were attacked, particularly because you had to be condition yourself not to fight back. If we're about the work, and we wanna be someone that is Willing to stand up and stand out and not stand back,

Katy 41:03

Right.

Loki 41:04

we have to practice with ourselves. How are we gonna respond in situations when someone says or does something racist, right? Or sexist or homophobic, whatever the is and is how, we have to know how we're gonna respond. We were coming back from this reward trip at work and this person, work at this company more, but this person executive sitting next to me, And this was in the airport, we're waiting for the next plane, for our plane. And there was this, we were able to bring our, significant others. And there was this gay couple there with their phones and the airbus, listening, watching a video. Nothing abnormal. And the guy next to me goes, I think that's great. I was like, what? What's that? He goes, that they can, they feel comfortable doing that in front of us now. And I'm going, what the hell does that mean? But I had no idea how to respond to that because I had never been, I, no one had ever said anything like that to me before. And so I said nothing. And on the flight home, it ate at me. I said, nothing. The drive home, At me. I said, nothing. I called him up. I said, Hey, I there's something you said. That really bothered me. Oh my gosh. What'd I say? I'm sorry. I'm like, yeah. I want you to know that my silence wasn't acceptance. I just didn't know how to respond in the moment. But, and I explained what he said, and of course his first response was, oh, I have friends who are gay. Of course. I said how do you think they would feel Like that? And he said, I never thought of that. And I gave him pause and I said, now look, this was about coworkers, right? I said, I'm not To hr. 'cause I think we're all adults here and you can, recognize this is wrong. I said, however, if I ever hear that you've said this again, or you ever say it in front of me, or if I hear about it, it's definitely going to HR and we're all gonna have a problem with it. But preparing yourselves to, to be in those Is critical, just like the activists did. We need to arm ourselves with And. Particularly empathy and understanding, because a lot of people right now who just, In a lot of fear because that's what they've been fed they just don't know.

Katy 42:57

It's such a, it's such a mutually reinforcing cycle, like learning more about the world. I was a social studies teacher and that's my area of research, and so I, I'm a passionate believer that social studies and history in particular are just incredibly powerful ways to learn how to care for other people and to know yourself better. One of the pieces, and we'll, again, we'll link to the film and we'll link to the book, but something that I think you're speaking to this need to, build empathy and really appreciate the intentional ignorance that has been cultivated in entire communities of people. Because that's one of the best ways to uphold a system of oppression is that enough people don't even know that it exists. That's, that benefits people in power. So when I look at the K 12 social studies curriculum, I am not remotely surprised by the homophobia we have, the racism, we have the xenophobia, we have the sexism, we have the stories that we're telling kids from the moment they under school and what's left out and what's not. Like it doesn't, it should not surprise us. Something that I really loved about the film especially was. That you took your family's history, like your own personal story, your family's history, and you nested it in this context. And you were clearly just so open and curious about the, how the bigger context is shaping things and being able to almost like the nesting dolls, understand all of that in relationship to each other, which I think is what helps lead you to a place of not just empathy, but that sense of obligation and responsibility, all of those things. And it, it's no surprise to me that efforts to do that are seen as a threat. And it's why we have book bands and it's why we have, do you know all people it it's, do not tell me a different story. Do not, I don't want any other information to come in and it, what something that's fascinating to me is it's the ways that even. Even stories about the civil rights movement have been co-opted by the right to, quote, when you hear like Megan Kelly quoting Martin Luther King, it's just like your brain explodes. So I'm curious if you've seen any of that with your mom's stories?

Loki 45:17

Haven't we all co-opted King's and watered down? I have a dream as if that's the, we don't wanna talk about what he said before that, by the way. But we don't wanna talk about, letters from Birmingham Or we don't Talk about what he said after, At at the summer of Montgomery march. It's safe to say I have a dream. The, I've never, the only time I've ever seen my mom co-opted is, or used as a tool in that regards is her mugshot, is clickbait. Quite frankly, that's it. It's It's, it's a sexy picture and, oh, learn this amazing history. And it's oh no, it's just clickbait. Yeah, I've seen that. I was like, congratulations, mom. You're I

Katy 45:54

wow. Yeah.

Loki 45:56

That sense of, we get a lot of people who are like, Some from her generation even who Pretend that, yeah, I was, I really wanna be a part of the movement, but I was too young, my parent, it's just Okay, what are you doing today? And how do you avoid that? My biggest worry about doing an ordinary hero, the film was is this gonna look like Saviorism? And the No, this is her story. Not centering, of course I'm centering my mom. People are like you're sending your mom the book. Yeah, because the book's about I'm not gonna write a book about my mom and go, Through the vantage point of John Lewis. No, this is my mom's story right And, you're like, I wanna tell you the story about Dr. King and then start telling the story about my mom. One day she met Dr. King. No, lemme tell you, it's wait a second. That's not About Dr. King. That's the story about your mom, that's that center. we are, I don't mind putting my mom in a pedestal She earned it. And the worry I only have in regards of we too often create gods that are unattainable. Forget that Dr. King was a human being. Right? And it's fascinating to see people respond when they see my mom. One, one of the big responses is How short she is because think she's a giant, right? They see those photos, particularly the mugshot. And somehow her stature becomes so much bigger. She had to be like this. Epic proportions or something. I don't know. She's five one. And that's the only fear I have, is that people, she becomes too detached from That you don't see her. For her. She is, and that's why I say an ordinary hero. It's but she did extraordinary things. Yes, she did. But she's just take, What she said herself was, I'm as ordinary as they come. just saw something was wrong Something about it. takes all of us to make a We just have to make the choice. She's, she is ordinary. And I think in that we should be able to see ourselves in those stories. And that's, that, that Of what I tried to do with my mom is to, it's yeah she's normal.

Mandy 47:48

for what it's worth, I

Katy 47:49

What it's worth, I think that comes across

Mandy 47:51

well

Katy 47:52

well.

Mandy 47:52

your book. I

Katy 47:53

In your book

Mandy 47:54

both through her own

Katy 47:55

through her own voice and your representation of it.

Mandy 47:58

give

Katy 47:58

It does give people just such a good pathway for

Mandy 48:02

how they can

Katy 48:03

how they can take her stories from her example, but

Mandy 48:05

that in their

Katy 48:06

that in their own life and see

Mandy 48:08

can go

Katy 48:09

they can

Mandy 48:09

And I

Katy 48:09

go with it. And I think that's really to your credit and Your mom.

Mandy 48:12

across so well. I.

Loki 48:14

And she's a remarkable person who just Convictions. And if we could all do that. and coming back to that point that you made earlier about, I guess it's, that's in the book, I should say. Yes, it is in the book. Sometimes you forget what's in the book but you need to know who you are first. And for the most part, there's a handful of people that aren't, but inherently good and we wanna do what's right. We just have to have the courage to do now, if I

Katy 48:38

Yeah.

Loki 48:39

talked about the book, get back to counter,

Katy 48:40

Yes.

Loki 48:41

Go get it. Did you guys get the sign? Did you order the signed

Katy 48:44

no.

Mandy 48:44

Actually, Katie,

Katy 48:45

I have

Mandy 48:45

but Katie doesn't know.

Loki 48:46

Oh,

Mandy 48:47

a signed copy for her. 'cause I ordered two signed So

Loki 48:50

Oh, real good.

Mandy 48:51

Send her

Katy 48:51

Oh,

Mandy 48:52

copy,

Katy 48:52

thank you so much.

Loki 48:54

So we have signed copies.

Katy 48:55

at

Loki 48:56

you, you can get signed copies

Katy 48:57

oh,

Loki 48:58

She, they're not person, she does not personalize. But also there's an opportunity on our website for people to, participate as donors, right? For the work that we're doing with the micro scholarships and the education material that we do and the documentaries and stuff. And we are launching in February a community that calling the Unity Collective And that, the recurring donors and such, and that be a dollar or a hundred dollars a month, whatever you wanna do,

Mandy 49:21

Great

Loki 49:21

That you can be a part of that. And you can see actively the, the results of the efforts that we're putting

Katy 49:27

Oh, that's awesome.

Loki 49:28

right there, because people wanna be a part of something and

Katy 49:31

Yes,

Loki 49:32

and we're doing that something so you can be a part of

Katy 49:34

this is great. We will link to the website, but will you say it out loud right now and maybe people Siri will hear it or they can write it down?

Loki 49:41

yeah. So the short easy one is be a joan.org,

Katy 49:44

Oh

Loki 49:44

B-E-A-J-O-A-N. So don't be a Karen, be a joan.org.

Mandy 49:50

it.

Loki 49:50

That's the short and easy one.

Katy 49:52

That's awesome. We will do whatever we can to point people that direction and encourage them to support you and your mom and the work that you're doing and your books and your films and all of that, which are just inspirational and instructive and definitely not. Like I know you put your mom on a pedestal, which is great, and the mom and me was like, maybe someday my kids will put me on a pedestal. Wouldn't that be nice?

Loki 50:14

my, my, my mom said I've wor I've ruined a perfectly good retirement. That's what she said.

Katy 50:19

But it's just such a beautiful way into how, like another way to be in this world that is not either to write everybody off and live in self-righteous theory. And it's also not to give into these systems and just be part of it. It's you're mom and you are charting a path that's very different and I just appreciate that so much.

Mandy 50:42

Thank

Loki 50:42

Thank

Katy 50:42

you so much. Yeah.

Mandy 50:44

All

Loki 50:45

Yeah,

Mandy 50:45

in touch and let us know if there's ever anything that we can

Katy 50:48

Promote

Mandy 50:48

future shows or anything that you

Katy 50:50

anything that you have coming up, we'd love to

Mandy 50:52

keep that out there and

Katy 50:53

there.

Mandy 50:54

name out there as well.

Loki 50:56

for sure. Thank you so much.

Mandy 50:57

right.

Katy 50:58

it's really nice to meet you and I can't believe you got an autograph copy from me, man. That's really nice. I that's a good friend.

Loki 51:04

Yeah.

Katy 51:05

at that.

Loki 51:07

gosh. She's trying to keep

Katy 51:07

Oh man.

Loki 51:08

she's trying to keep you quiet from something you did in junior high school, apparently.

Katy 51:11

Oh man. Congrats on just all the work that you're doing. Thank you so much for it. And really, do stay in touch.

Mandy 51:16

you too.

Katy 51:17

Oh. Please

Loki 51:18

Thank you,

Mandy 51:18

we really, were really so excited to learn all about her and thank you for everything that she will continue to influence on

Loki 51:25

thank you.

Mandy 51:26

lives. So

Loki 51:27

I

Katy 51:27

be a Joan,

Mandy 51:28

All

Loki 51:28

Yeah.

Katy 51:29

Whether you're a mom or not, be a Joan.

Loki 51:31

a Joan.

Katy 51:31

Love it. Take care, Loki. Thank you.

Loki 51:33

you.

Mandy 51:33

you.

Loki 51:34

All right.

Mandy 51:34

so much.