Overcome Obstacles, Stop Overthinking & Why SMART Goals Aren't that Smart

Welcome to Anxiety at Work --> We hope the time you spend with us will help remove the stigma of anxiety and mental health in the workplace and your personal life.

In this episode, you will learn:

1. Why SMART goals aren’t that smart
2. How you can stop your internal advice monster
3. The three questions you should ask yourself every day

With us today is our dear friend Michael Bungay Stanier. MBS is the Founder of Box of Crayons, which helps organizations transform from advice-driven to curiousity-led. He is the author of the best-selling book “The Coaching Habit.” He was a Rhodes Scholar and has been named the #1 thought leader in coaching. Before founding Box of Crayons, Michael held senior positions in the corporate, consultancy and agency worlds He has lived and worked in Australia, the UK, the US and Canada. Michael has an Master’s degree from Oxford and a law degree from the Australian National University.
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Transcript

have you ever wondered what should I do now? 

today on anxiety at work podcast we talk about getting started on whatever you want to accomplish in life. I'm Chester Elton with me is my dear friend and co-author Adrian Gostick 

well thank you Ches, we all want to make a difference, don't we? maybe we want to get up and get moving or do some work, but things always get in the way. Well, our guest today is a superstar executive coach who can teach us how to be a force for change and good.

and with us today is our dear friend Michael Bungay Stanier. He is the founder of box of crayons which helps organizations transform from advice driven to curiosity led. he is the author of the best-selling book “The Coaching Habit” I actually have two copies of that book for some reason. He was a Rhodes scholar and has been named the number one thought leader in coaching. Before founding box of crayons Michael led senior positions or held senior positions in the corporate consultancy and agency worlds. He has lived and worked in Australia, the UK, the US, and now resigns in beautiful Toronto, Canada. Michael has a master's degree from Oxford. A law degree from the Australian National University. He is our dear friend we are delighted to have him on our podcast today welcome Michael Bungay Stanier

MBS. before you hit record, we were talking about- you're like, remind me again how you pronounce your massively over complicated name? And I literally thought you were going to start, not- have you ever wondered how to do something that matters? But have you ever wondered how to pronounce Michael Bungay Stanier’s name? and I'm like, you're not alone. when I got married my wife and I combined our surname, so I used to be Michael Stanier and she used to be Marcella Bungay and now we’re Bungay Stanier. I get all sorts of interesting interpretations including my favorite Michael Banging Spaniel, which is a high point and a low point at the same time. 

Yeah, and Adrian you said this wasn't going to be any fun. No, I said I said I'm not coming and then look what happens when I finally do. Yeah 

Hey well thanks for joining us today. I think you know Chester's not alone. We've all got a copy of “The Coaching Habit” on our shelf, and uh many of us have gone through it many times. It's lots of good wisdom. now you've got a new book out called “How to Begin” and one of the things that I really liked in the book you say smart goals they're not that smart. so talk us through what you learned researching and writing this latest work.

yeah, well if you ask any crowd of people, you know when you what's the one word you associate with goal setting 98 of the people are going to say smart goals because it's just that acronym that has caught on. and everyone's like yes smart goals and I'm like who knows what smart stands for and it was like huh kind of I can guess and I'm like we can all guess but the truth is that even though smart is such a useful acronym we can't quite remember what all five of the words stand for it's like is it meaningful or is it measurable is it timely or is it tempestuous who knows but actually um Adrian my real beef with smart goals is this. they don't really bring forth your ambition. smart goal is when I looked at them and I looked at what all those acronyms stand for they're mostly about keeping them neat to keep them tidy keeping them measurable keeping them doable and all of that has its place but when I started writing a book and it ended up being a book about how do you set ambitious goals for yourself and the world how do you bring out your best do work that actually has an impact I was like smart goals do not serve me here I need something else to find my way to claim my greatness and to make a difference so for me I'm putting smart goals aside and I'm claiming thrilling and important and daunting there's the three key attributes for setting what I would call a worthy goal.

You know it's interesting you are a coach of coaches. which is wonderful in fact you know one of the reasons Adrian and I have your book is because it's been a great resource for us as executive coaches. And you talk about ask good questions so walk us through you know how you've learned and the research in writing around you know asking these good questions so we can really take care of those in our care and specifically when you talk about that. You know obviously our podcast is anxiety at work, and what I love about your philosophy of asking questions is you know as you're as you're coaching an executive there's an inherent anxiety there, right? because they want to get better and they're worried about how is this whole coaching thing going to work especially at the beginning right? yeah those good questions at the beginning really I have found it anyway and I love your take on this it kind of lowers the anxiety of the whole coaching experience if you ask the right question so how did you get to those questions and walk us through those questions I know there was a long question so uh go for it

well, when you say a long question it's like 17 questions packed into a long sentence Oh look, I'll do my best to untangle some of this. first of all, I think you're absolutely right that if you're in a coaching conversation whether you're an executive coach or whether you're a busy manager and a leader just trying to be more coach-like. coaching brings anxiety on both sides of the conversation. you know if you're the person who's asking the questions you're anxious about am I helping am I having value are we going down the right path do I know what's happening and if you're on the other side you're like do I know what's happening do I know where it's going what's it like to be trying to figure this stuff out by myself so part of what's so brilliant about the name of the podcast and your books is that it acknowledges that anxiety is a real thing that can just derail Us in terms of from showing up at our best so how do you manage that anxiety well I do think questions can really help with that because questions are you know somebody once said questions are a portal to discovery so if you're the person asking the questions one of the things that it does is it removes the anxiety of you having to know everything and you having to save everybody and you having to stay in control of everything it actually gives you permission to say let me ask the good question and invite the other person in to answer that question in terms of managing anxiety on the other side of the conversation the person who might be answering the questions well part of what a question does is it creates space to allow you to figure some stuff out. and what your what we most commonly experience is a whole bunch of people rushing in to give us ideas and opinions and suggestions and thoughts and have you know have you considered this have you decided that and obviously there's a place for advice giving but so often we rush in and try and give advice a little too early on before we know what's happening before we know what ideas I've already had before we know what they care about so part of a way of reducing anxiety is just to give the other person the space and your support to help them figure this stuff out by themselves I think that's what a great question can do. 

if you only came up with a term, Michael, for that advice giving if there was only something that you could coin? I know I'm just exactly 

yeah you're setting me up because um you know I wrote the coaching habit and as you said it's sold I think it's sold like a million and a half copies now so a lot um and there's no doubt a lot of people who've read it and gone this has really helped and I'm using the questions and I've just added it to the way I showed up already. but it's also true that a bunch of people went look I know the seven questions that you lay out in the book and I'm still finding it really hard not to give advice what's going on here. so, the advice trap which is the kind of the sister book to the coaching habit really tackles how do you tame your advice monster. so Adrian you set me up as a soft question. it's like it's like there are three advice monsters tame it uh tell it save it and control it so tell it is all like I've got to have the answer I must have all the answers to all the problems and if I don't have all the answers to all the problems I'm going to fail save it is I have to I have to protect everybody from all the things and if I'm not saving everybody from themselves in the world all the time and failing and control it it's like I've got to keep my hands on the wheel if I if I if I let go it's going to go to chaos immediately. I'm gonna maintain control all the time. and those are the three ego States I guess that drive us to want to jump in and give answers. so knowing questions is one thing that your technical solution, but learning how to tame your advice monster starts getting more into what people might call your adaptive change. the big issue. 

so when you're coaching an executive how do you get them to pull back on this it's human nature especially you have 20 years of experience as a leader you want to fix things so how do you help leaders pull back 

well the first thing I do is just talk to them how I define coaching and I say this it's simple and it's difficult the goal is can you stay curious a little bit longer. can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly. so, it's not saying never give advice because that's stupid. it's saying can you just slow down. can you just start noticing how quickly you jump in with the solution. and can you just slow down the rush to give advice. and then we start talking about the price that's being paid by them and by others for them rushing in to give advice. and you know the executive themselves is paying a price you know she is exhausted and overwhelmed and a bottleneck and carries the responsibility of you know I need to have all the answers to all the things for all my people. it's too much. not to mention the fact that if she's spending her whole time providing the answers and solutions to other people and she doesn't have time to do her own work because she's got plenty to be getting on with and B It's actually an act of disempowerment to the others and that's the price other people pay which is like if somebody is saying you know come to me and I'll give you the answer every time you're never going to step into what you're potentially able to do so at its heart if you have giving advices your default response you're basically saying I'm better than you I'm smarter faster cleverer or wiser younger more experienced than you. I know more than you and it's just a fundamental this disempowerment that that happens there. again, there's a place for advice but just not quite as quickly as you think 

really interesting just slow down yeah, we're always eager and often too eager. hey tell us where people can find more about your work where would you send them 

well look if you have a vast corporate training budget and you're not looking to spend it with Chester and Adrian you're like giving them all the money that they need and deserve then box of crayons.com is the website where we offer kind of organizational and corporate solutions to training. if you're more about how do I build my own coaching capacity how do I work better with others or how do I find my next big thing you know the how to begin book then the website is mbs.works.

excellent you know it's kind of funny we've known Michael for a long time now and he has a wonderful habit of just randomly calling you out of the blue and it's always this much fun and I always when your name shows up on my phone I just immediately break out into this big smile 

so, we're gonna say you break out into a sweat because you're like I don't know how to pronounce his name.

what am I gonna say stand your spaniel what is this um I'll tell you what's really interesting and I know we're all really busy and so treat yourself to the audiobook of the coaching habit because I'll go in these walks in the morning and sometimes I will just pull up your audiobook because I get to hear your lovely voice it's just a really a nice way to stay connected uh so listen so back to the matter at hand here uh you know often we're called on to be this bigger bolder version of ourselves right? and uh it takes courage you know to address those scary moments how do you get to that courage when you're just so stressed you're anxious and you're overwhelmed what are some of your tips 

you know I've got an answer for this because I should guess but I'm curious because you're a great champion of this as well and I see you and Adrian as kind of people who embody some of this courage to go after stuff how do you, Chester how do you reconnect to the courage when you feel like you've lost that connection 

so he's asking me a question very penetrating which is your brand you know I I actually love this question because it wasn't too long ago when I was having to do a virtual presentation to a group and we'd had all our meetings and I had it all locked down and I actually everything was in place and for whatever reason I was really anxious about it and it wasn't something I hadn't done a hundred times before so I stepped back and I said okay you're irrationally nervous and anxious about this what are you going to do about it and so what I did is I texted like a dozen of my close friends and I said the Apostle of Appreciation is anxious about this presentation will you text me something reassuring and positive about myself and uh you know it's like 10 of the 12 responded within you know a minute. that's so nice. and it was it was it was very affirming in fact when it was over a good friend actually called me and he said Hey I texted and everything but I just wanted to make sure like you're okay right. and it was it was very affirming because I think we forget sometimes that we've got this wonderful support group around us and in fact one of them said what a great example of asking for help as a leader I never ask for help. that's right and I need to do it more often so how do you like that answer? 

I think that's a wonderful answer because it yeah we talk about this all the time but you barely hear examples of it which is a you know vulnerability is strength number I guess yes vulnerability is strength but I'm but not for me but right I mean I think other people should be vulnerable all the time but I'm like I've built up my little armor so this willingness to say hey help me out here um it is such a gift to allow other people to offer you help people. love that how about you Adrian I mean how do you reconnect to courage when you feel like you might have lost that connection. 

yeah it's a good question because I've never well not never but I don't think about this as much because but I do tend to yeah drag my feet when I'm when I'm face this is a question for me because um I do tend to well let me think about it and you know and Chester sometimes calls me Dr No because you know it's yeah that's I don't want to go there it sounds like a lot of work it sounds like scary and so we do we tend to drag our feet and sometimes we just have to LEAP but I'm I typically I'm have to be very thoughtful before I take on something new 

yeah, that's such an interesting to get a glimpse into your dynamic because you've been such successful Partners working together for so long you know my wife and I have a yes no Dynamic I'm very much a yes which is like it's an adventure look at the very worst I'm going to have an awesome story about how disastrous this was. so, let's go for it whereas my son was like she's more wired to the no. which is like why would I do the this unknown thing when there's a bunch of known things that would work and it'd be great why wouldn't we do that and today is literally the 30th anniversary of our first date. so, it's taken us 30 years and we've figured out that we both have this dynamic and how to manage around it how to manage my incessant let's go for it and that's sometimes annoying and how to manage her immediate reject response which is let's definitely not do that which is also annoying. um and so I think a finding the right people in your in your in your posse so you're like how do I find people who I know have my back but also know that they're what they believe in and their answers aren't necessarily the truth they're just another opinion. and you don't have to do what they say you need to do you just need to feel their love for you. 

I I think that's a beautiful answer yes it is yeah and Adrian it didn't take us 30 years to figure it out no after about 15 or 20. yeah and I just keep telling Ches, I'm right you're you know it's like when are you gonna figure that out.

 yeah, exactly I appreciate your wrong headers yeah and if you just come back to my answer with someone I have very similar conversation 

hey uh we're of course big fans of gratitude um leading with gratitude that's one of our books and you talk about the role of gratitude in in the in the process of coaching and overcoming what's keeping you back so help us understand gratitude for us and those in our care and how that works in the coaching process.

yeah I think it comes in the heart of it for me and the power of coaching comes down to two things the first is more tactical and it's simply time to think you know it's just like you're creating in this busy life we rarely have time to stop and reflect and have that space held where we can kind of meander and dig into things a little more deeply so it's just a great I mean honestly sometimes you schedule a coaching session and even if the coach doesn't show up if you take it as a coaching session you're like I've had an hour to think and it's powerful for that alone but here's the deeper thing that I think is an offering and this comes uh this is the model from the philosopher Martin Bubar and he says look there are two types of relationships in the world there are I it relationships and they are I vow relationships and I it relationships are more transactional there are you stop seeing the fullness of the other person and it's more like what can I give what can I get what can I take how are you know part of the machinery that I'm trying to get out of this world I'm trying to put to play in this world um I thou relationships see seek deeper and it's when you have a more fulsome sense of who that other person is a more holistic sense of all of them and they have the same for you so it is that moment where you're able to see them for all their glory and all their mess and all their humanness and all their divineness. I'm an atheist but you know that that word still works for me in this conversation. I do think that part of what gratitude does is it is a practice to connect to the eye thou relationship when you name what you appreciate or grateful for or love in another person you actually take a moment to go beyond the transaction to say this is the quality they bring in the wall and I am seeing it and I'm naming it myself or to them. and I think you know in coaching but just in I mean gratitude is you know goes beyond coaching obviously it's an act you know I love Chester's daily expressions of gratitude that I see on social media. it's a way of kind of connecting to the connecting to the glory I'm using all this kind of religious these religious terms um you know the glory and the grace of the world and the other person.

awkward pause 

I feel like I should have more demonstratively walked off stage. 

by the way for anybody listening both of us had our heads down taking notes 

So yeah this is really, really deep oh wait a minute it's my turn my turn uh you know it is it is interesting that you're saying gratitude does connect in in a in a spiritual and emotional way I mean I I couldn't agree more you know it is that time to just step back and say and for the three of us especially uh on this podcast I mean to realize that 99 of the world would trade places with us in a nanosecond that we are so privileged and so blessed and so you know in such a um a wonderful way of being just because of where we were born and who our parents were and that that stroke of fate and luck. let's go on to some self-care here you know we're always interested because successful people we have found are almost always the most anxious people that you know they put inordinate amount of pressure on themselves and they're constantly looking to you know exceed what they last did I mean you've got a book that sold a million and five copies the next book has to sell two million copies and so on so walk us through some of the practices that you've found to keep your mental health and to help yourself and keep yourself thriving in the midst of this wonderful mess that you just described.

well, I um I don't feel the burden of the next big thing. like I am never going to have another book that sells a million and a half copies unless I do. if something gets lucky. but you know there was um there was a vast amount of fairy dust they got sprinkled over the coaching habit and I worked hard to write a really good book and then I I was on a visiting podcast and marketing it for a long time so I did all I could to make that book a success and its success has gone way beyond anything I did. no, it's just I got lucky and then it became popular and then began word of mouth and all that sort of stuff so I try to here's how I think about my own worthy goals. you know how to begin it's like set a worthy goal something that's really important first of all I really try and figure out what's thrilling important means to me in this moment. and then I take my best guess at the next best project to work on and you know sometimes these projects work and sometimes they don't work in terms of you know external measures of success but the secret for me is like taking my best guess that's the work. all I can do is in the moment take my best guess and then go for it and trying to commit fully to the making of it the best thing I can so you know I'm I've just handed in the manuscript for the next book which will come out in June next year. and uh and I like it. I think I've written the best book I can. I've you know it's taken you know six or seven drafts and I shared it with a bunch of early readers they're like the third draft and I was like I think I've nailed it this third draft is special. and I've got there's all this feedback going this is terrible. it's like somebody left a message on LinkedIn which I'm I am grateful she was like you know I didn't mark up the manuscript because it looks like it was like rough notes for a speech and I'm like have you heard of Patrick Lencioni maybe you should write a book like him. or even like hbr where they use data I'm like oh man you did not like my book and that was great because I then went through I then blew it up basically and rewrote it so now I've got a book it comes out in June it's the best book I can I'm now going to try and create the best marketing campaign I can one that brings me some joy and has some fun and hopefully has some success but you know how many copies will the book sell you know I'd be disappointed if it sells less than 50 copies because 

you've got to know more than 50 people.

yeah exactly, exactly. I'm thinking even I'm hoping my mum buys at least 10 copies to give to her friends so um uh but I can't I can't any number I put on that is just a made-up number so I'm like commit to the process and um understand the understand what's at risk understand the downside you know what's the risk is I lose money and I lose time and I lose reputation turns out that the time has already sung because that's my best guess so I'm happy about the time I know how much a marketing campaign costs and how much it costs me to hybrid publish my books and I'm like I can lose all of that money that's that can be spent it turns out that I don't really have a reputation anyway. it's like I was like there's not a whole lot at stake nobody even knows who I am for the most part can't pronounce your last name exactly it's a mystery actually so there's not that much at risk so I'm like I can feel the freedom of that. so that is a big part of my self-care for the work I do which is to um commit to a process rather than an outcome. 

you know I I I I really appreciate that answer I'm always curious though do you have any kind of daily rituals uh that that you might share uh you know I'm a big fan of symbols and rituals and the other thing that I want to point out is one of the things that you do so well to bring stress levels down and make people feel comfortable is you have a ridiculously good sense of humor. I mean you really do find the humor in everything. now that's not a daily ritual I think it's a gift you have so do you have any daily rituals that you can share with us? 

I do you know um almost every morning I will first of all make an espresso. I love espresso we have a half decent espresso machine downstairs so if my wife's awake, I'll make her a coffee and I'll make me an espresso then I'll come up into my little my little office here and I've got two desks here at this desk here which is my working desk so I do my podcast and I write emails and I write newsletters and stuff here. and then I have another desk that looks out a window over there which is a thinking desk where I look out the window and I try and figure stuff out and I open up my little journal and I answer three questions. um question number one is what do I notice? because I'm kind of a heady person and often spend my time drifting around in in the future. I'm trying to be more present to what's going on. so I'm noticing externalities and I'm trying to notice what's going on in me. how am I feeling? what am I thinking about? what am I worrying about? what am I excited about? so that's the first thing I make notes on which is like what do I notice second is what am I grateful for? and I nobody here needs to be explained why that little gratitude act because it is all the research says if there's a silver bullet for happiness it's expressing gratitude on a regular basis so I get to be grateful and then the third thing I write down is what's the one thing I need to do today. to make this a good day um because I have a you know I have a to-do list that's backed up and embarrassing you behind on a bunch of stuff and um I and I'm and I am perpetually over committed in the work I do it's uh one of the less useful and unmute not useful wirings that I have is to over commit um so I'm like what's the one thing that I really need to get done today. like today the one thing I must get done today is I need to write a number of newsletters so that my team can get them prepared and then we're going to close the company down from the 13th of December through to the 10th of January, so I need to have all of that stuff ready for them and not become a bottleneck for them. so, answer those three questions in the morning and then at um 5:24 Monday through Thursday and at 3:47 on Friday the alarm goes on my phone and I've reprogrammed it so it says stop working and celebrate the day and I will write down or if I'm not near a book and pen and paper in my head name one thing that I've made progress on today. so you know Teresa or Marble's book the progress principle I think it's called she's like look people get people find meaning out of making small daily progress on stuff. and I'm not that good at noticing what I've done during the day so this forces me to name a thing that I can celebrate, and I made progress on.

love that hey this has been just such a great discussion Michael we're always thrilled to learn from your um now if we had to summarize if you had to summarize a couple of takeaways you'd want our listeners to take away today what would you say 

well first and most obvious and in fact if you're going to just take one thing away from this entire podcast series not just my interview, I think the takeaway is this you pronounce my surname Bungay Stanier. that's the main thing to take away but if you if you want more than that um, I would say I mean really I want to ask you this question but I'll behave and I'll ask myself at which is um process over outcome. and look to build ‘I thou’ relationships.

such great advice listen we could talk to you all day and laugh through the whole thing and learn through the whole thing and I can't tell you how much we appreciate your just your Genius the help that you give to coaches and people literally all over the world and more than that for your friendship. you know one of the things you need to know about Michael is that he does he reaches out. he's a true and good friend and if there's you know on my Tombstone if that's what they put in my Tombstone I'll I will have lived a a good life right and uh and you're a perfect example of being a good and true friend so thank you for your time. 

thanks Adrian you bet it's been a pleasure.

Author recap:

Well Ches, just such important and interesting you know and challenging information whenever we talk to MBS I mean I love this idea of how many times have we heard smart goals and he says okay so what does the m stand for yeah well it's measurable no somebody argues no it's yeah and so what he says is when you think about goals that are thrilling important but also daunting I mean what an interesting way of thinking about something that we've talked about a thousand times.

yeah that next phase you know we often talk about that and it doesn't matter what stage you're in of your life or your career you always think well what's the next thing you know and uh thrilling is is rarely a part of the equation you know I was just talking to a young guy that I kind of Mentor a little bit and he's thinking about making a job and I think he you know he says like I want to make the change because I want to make a change he said yeah I think you think this change is going to solve all your problems and it's not you know is it going to be fun is it going to be thrilling he just has a way of putting things uh in in perspective um I I loved when he talked about the advice trap and that idea of slow down. be a little more pensive be a little more thoughtful don't and just that pause that says I'm considering this instead of jumping in and solving all the problems and doing it so quickly that the message and this was what I really took away is I'm really smart and you're not. yeah, I have all the answers and you don't 

yeah and I love the cause of the he coined the term the advice monster right that comes out really quickly and he says but when we ask questions it actually removes anxiety of of having to know everything uh and we're all looking to produce our anxiety so he says yeah just stay curious a little longer and just notice how quickly you do rush to advice and another I might I think probably the most important question was what's the price you pay when your advice monster comes out too fast are you disempowering people are you having to be the person who solves everything in your organization 

yeah the questions you know he's a master at asking questions and I love that he asked us questions we should have been better prepared because he always does it um that questions are the portal to discovery and I thought you know when you think about it that way and you think about you know what you just mentioned about being curious and opening that portal and asking questions and then listening and pausing and slowing down. it just you know just in describing it calms me down and gives me confidence that we can be you know better coaches and better advisors.

and I think again the last thing for me was the I it relationships and you see this with people unfortunately we see it too much with maybe politicians and others where you kind of go you know they're really only in this what can I get or give you know what can I give to people what can I get versus the I thou relationship which unfortunately in this world we don't value as much anymore. but uh publicly maybe but personally I think we really do is those people who deeply love us and are so appreciative of us and how do we reconnect and get to that level in our lives. 

yeah my last take away and I really loved the three questions you know what do I notice externally and internally? what am I grateful for? and what's the one thing I need to do today? and then the wrap up is at the end of the day and is this phone literally has an alarm that says stop working celebrate something that you accomplished today yeah this is great such a wonderful routine and a wonderful way to start and end the day 

okay well what a great learning what great takeaways coming up next on the podcast is Eliza Knox who's has a book called out don't quit your day job and her book talks about the Mind shifts that we need to make to rise and thrive at work so that's going to be really important as we dive into that. we want to thank you for listening today thanks to our producer Brent Klein to Christy Lawrence who helps us find amazing guests and all of you who listened in 

yeah, and if you like the podcast, please share it share it with friends and family we'd love you to download it and give us five stars. uh we'd love you to visit the cultureworks.com for some more free resources for you and your team and ways for you can thrive and reduce your anxiety and we love to speak to audiences around the world whether in person or virtually so if you're looking for a really fun and engaging speaker that can talk to you about culture teamwork resilience anxiety and workplace please give us a call we'd love to speak at your event and please buy our books leading with gratitude anxiety at work the their wonderful reads and well worth your investment of time

that's right and you get to listen to us on the audiobooks so hey thanks everybody for joining us today and until next time we wish you the best of mental health.