Ep. 40 | The Intersection of Faith and Firefighting: A Conversation with Battalion Chief Andy Starnes

In this episode, host Chris interviews Battalion Chief Andy Starnes, a renowned firefighter and educator, about the intersection of faith and firefighting. Andy shares his journey in the fire service and how his spirituality has guided him through the challenges of the profession. They discuss the importance of faith in maintaining resilience, seeking help, and building strong relationships. The conversation also touches on the struggles of financial management and the need for firefighters to be financially prepared. Overall, the episode emphasizes the significance of spirituality and personal growth in the fire service. In this conversation, Chris and Andy Starnes discuss the importance of confession, accountability, and faith in personal and professional growth. They share personal experiences and insights on how faith has guided them in their lives as firefighters and husbands. Andy emphasizes the need for accountability and the impact of faith on serving others selflessly. They also discuss the importance of seeking guidance, reading, and prayer in the journey of faith.

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Takeaways

• Faith is critical in life, whether you're a believer or not. It provides a foundation of hope and resilience.
• As firefighters, it's important to seek help and support from others, both in the fire service and in personal life.
• Financial management is a significant challenge for many firefighters, and it's crucial to prioritize financial education and planning.
• Building strong relationships and valuing family are essential for personal and professional growth in the fire service. Confession is the first step in healing and personal growth.
• Accountability is crucial in maintaining healthy relationships and making positive changes.
• Faith provides guidance, peace, and a moral anchor in life.
• Living a life of service and putting others first is a reflection of one's faith.
• Seeking guidance, reading, and prayer are important in the journey of faith.

firefighting, faith, spirituality, resilience, seeking help, relationships, financial management, personal growth, confession, accountability, faith, personal growth, professional growth, firefighters, husbands, serving others, guidance, reading, prayer

Transcript

Chris (00:02.1)
Priority Traffic podcast. I'm your host Chris, a husband and firefighter. In today's episode, we dive into a world where knowledge, dedication, and spirituality converge in the realm of family and firefighting. It's my honor to introduce Battalion Chief Andy Starnes, a name synonymous with passion, innovation, relentless service in the fire industry. Andy's journey began in 1992 as a volunteer and later in 98 transitioning to a career in full -time

Throughout his career, Andy has not only combated flames, but ignited the spark of learning and leadership through his extensive work in thermal imaging, fire behavior, and an advisor to both peers and communities alike. Andy's role extends beyond the firehouse. As a significant contributor to fire service literature and educator at fire service conferences globally, Andy's commitment to the advancement of firefighting techniques and safety protocols knows no bounds. His work with Insight Training LLC has provo

propelled the use of thermal imaging training across the United States and beyond, making significant strides in firefighter safety and efficiency. Today, we dare to peel back the layers of this multifaceted firefighting journey, exploring how Andy balances the high stakes of his profession with his spiritual wellness. This conversation promises to offer insight into maintaining inner strength amid the chaos, highlighting the critical role of spirituality in nurturing resilience.

teamwork, and leadership at home and in the fire service. Join us in this compelling dialogue with Andy Stearns as we dig into the heart of firefighting, a profession that commands unwavering courage and a profound sense of purpose guided by the light of service and faith. Andy Stearns, welcome to Party Traffic Podcast.

Andy Starnes (01:51.6)
Wow, thank you, Chris. That's quite a lot. I didn't expect all that. Thank you. I'm just a nobody from nowhere, Monroe, North Carolina, who's fortunate to have had a great journey so far and hope it's not over yet.

Chris (01:57.608)
Absolutely.

Chris (02:07.41)
Yeah, so far so good. You've had quite the journey and I know I touched on a little bit of it. But I really had a profound experience when I was looking at your thermal imaging training online and I started to read about you as the person and I had never, until the TIC training started coming up in my department, have I heard of you, which only says about me that I haven't done a ton of research because you are well known and you are out there.

but I discovered you in one of your bios or in one of the offshoots of what you are doing, bringing back the brotherhood and the ministry into the fire service. And that is what caught my attention. Not to mention I've watched several hours minimum of your tick training. So I wanted to bring you on and just have a candid conversation about your experience with faith, how

serves you in your time of need and is kind of the foundation for your principles and your priorities in home life and at the fire station.

Andy Starnes (03:20.782)
That's a big one. We may have to do several parts of this thing.

Andy Starnes (03:26.996)
Faith is critical in life whether you're a believer or not. We all have faith. You have faith that your car is going to crank. You have faith that you ever took care of major food, didn't put poison in it. You have faith that when you go to bed at night that you your house is going to hold up and the roof is not going to leak. You have you know what I call temporal or earthly faith and then you have people like myself who have faith outside of circumstances.

And that's the most difficult faith to have is to believe in things that the world doesn't necessarily believe in. Ridicules, mocks, makes fun of for whatever reason. And my purpose today is not to mock or ridicule anyone who doesn't believe or believes different than me. But as for me in my house, I believe in God and Jesus Christ and that's my journey. And I hope to point others to them. I don't judge, I don't condemn. I just point to them.

they have a problem with what I believe, asked them to take it up with the author and read the book and read it from cover to cover. And I'm not, I'm not the one who has the answers. I'm just a broken instrument that God's used. And I know as Paul says, I'm chief of centers. I have no right to point at anyone. I have no right to look down on anyone unless I'm there to help them up. Cause this guy right here is full of flaws. Just ask my wife. So I know as I grow older,

One of the things I learned more is to become more compassionate and less cynical. A lot of people become more cynical as they age and I'm becoming more aware of my own flaws and inadequacies. And especially when you separate yourself from the job, that's a big one too. You realize, I'm not the guy going down the hallway anymore. I'm not the one standing out front yard commanding the incident. I'm not, I'm not that one that has that title, you know, so you have to be at home with who you're called to be.

And what your purpose in life is, my friend from Crew First Culture, his little band I wear all the time now says, you are perfectly made for an extraordinary purpose. What is that purpose? And that's up to each individual to decide. But for me, I know that decision was made already and I had to realize what that was. And hopefully we'll talk about that today of how we can encourage others like yourself and other firefighters on the journey. Cause my motto is I work in the dark.

Andy Starnes (05:52.271)
I work in infrared or I work in between the heart and the head, which someone once said that 14 inches is the longest journey of any human life. Getting this and this to agree with each other. Quite difficult. So that's where God's placed me right now. And I can't say that's forever, but for now I know that's my purpose. That's where I'm to work and I teach both of those things. Kind of they marry together and talk about the things.

how we can see the things in each other. We don't need a camera to see something's wrong with someone. And my goal is to point them to help. And whether they choose to believe as I do is up to them and to God. But my goal is to get them to help, is to feed them, to help them, provide some type of healing, some type of hope, some type of counseling. And then hopefully, you know, this broken instrument can point them to the guy who's really leading the whole orchestra.

Chris (06:49.948)
Absolutely, I think this is gonna be a very enlightening conversation for myself and hopefully for everyone listening and I plan to use myself as the example and probably more uncomfortable scenarios in this conversation than I would like to, but that is part of my journey and I've felt this nagging and we talked previously about this pull to step towards God and faith and you

were that, that initial beacon for me. just, the synchronicity of me finding you and, and making that phone call to invite you on today, is proof that I know that something's happening. I'm searching for more and I know that I can't move into this next phase the same. have to change. And that's something I'm embracing educationally.

tactically in the fire realm and at home as an individual. So I'm really excited to have this conversation, brother.

Andy Starnes (07:57.552)
Well, good news is you've already got the skills to do what you need to do. If you're trained as a firefighter, we, I use the parables of looking at what we already know and I apply it to our faith and say, all right, we've got to size up our situation. And then we got to develop an incident action plan. You got to conditions, actions, needs report, and then we're going to apply these strategies and tactics. And then we're going to report into the IC every so often. We're not going to freelance, right?

Chris (08:22.792)
Yeah, it's amazing that, I've not to that extent, but I have made references for wellness to a fire scene or a fire ground, a home basically. If you got a fire in your home, you're going to put it out and each little room is essentially a portion of wellness. Like if there's a fire in your safe, you're going to put that fire out. And that's definitely the concept of the fire service is very, very,

expansive when it comes to examples of principle.

Andy Starnes (08:55.44)
Well, Exodus chapter 18 has the first example of incident command system in the Bible. Moses is leading all these people through the wilderness and his father -in -law shows up and his good parents do. They offer a little wisdom and he sees Moses sitting there and all these million, two million people lining up to talk to him. And I'm paraphrasing, Starnes paraphrased, so forgive me because what are you doing? You know, what you're doing is not good. It's going to wear you out. Why are you doing? Well, they come to me and then

Inquire to God on their behalf and then I give them solutions. He goes no, no, no, no, no, need to point valuable Good men a good character over tens fifties hundreds and thousands and then let them decide those smaller cases and bring the bigger cases to you So think about a big fire you got the IC Then you got to divisions and you got to groups and then see how this works So yeah, so that was mentioned a long time ago, whether it got the full credit or not. I don't

but I thought it was rather interesting. Historically, you could find examples of things that already existed.

Chris (10:02.056)
Yeah. And I believe you, I think I can quote your, it's the same problem, just new people. I think you have said that in the past and that that resonated with me. It's like, these aren't new problems. These, I'm not the first one to experience any of these issues. And it just, it boggles my mind why we, we hide and we feel this shame and guilt about these experiences that we do struggle with all the while. You're not the first person

Andy Starnes (10:10.256)
Yeah.

Chris (10:32.038)
I'm not the first person to ever have these setbacks or struggles that I'm having. And we just, we think we are and we think we're alone. And that's one thing I want people to understand is we're not, and there's no shame in reaching your hand out for help if you are in a position that you need

Andy Starnes (10:53.114)
There's two kinds of pride that you have to watch out for one that the fire service talks about pride in the job, pride in that. But there's a sneaky one that comes in there and it can actually hurt us because when we get to that point where we don't want to ask for help or we feel like we've been wronged or we're hopeless and we blame God, that's a personal pride. Like you did this to me. I'm not going to ask for help because I don't want nobody to know. It's an eye problem.

And I is the center letter of that word sin. Nobody likes that word. But in general, the majority of our problems, can point back myself. There's an old saying that says, if I point at you like this, if I flip it over, there's three fingers pointing back at me. So I have to be very careful what I point out because in general, we don't like to be the one asking for help. We're the servant. We like to provide.

We don't like to receive in that respect. And there's a servant song that says, me have the grace to let you be my servant too. And the hypocritical nature of the fire service is quite interesting that you and I would not have had a job or you have a job without someone calling for help. Yet when we need help, we refuse to. who you said that a little bit ago that you talk about me being a beacon. Who are we denying?

their God given calling to help us by simply sitting and suffering in silence because of our personal pride. Cause we won't ask for help. This person that God may have made or appointed or went through a specific circumstance that could, you know, divinely appointed to talk to you may never get to talk to you and I because of our personal pride. It's like, I call it the prison we create. We're sitting in a cell with an open door and we refuse.

step out that door and and he'll provide the answer but the thing I've learned about him is he will not force himself on you he will not make you do anything he will set circumstances in your life but you have to physically choose to be on his team to move his way to walk with him because he's not going to force you he loves you that much you know and that's the thing is our pride really

Andy Starnes (13:16.802)
as human beings in general gets in the way of us receiving help, helping others, so many things, it actually makes us feel hopeless because the key thing there is we're relying on ourself. And if I've learned anything at this part of life is just like that, everything I have could be taken from me, my health, my finances, everything. And I could be completely utterly destitute. But I know right now Chris, that if I would humble myself,

seek his face and ask for help. I have enough friends that he's put in my life that I would never have to worry about a meal. I would never have to worry about a roof over my head. I would not live a comfortable life, but my family would be cared for until we could find a way. That's a, that's a pretty big comfort to know that if everything I had was taken from me, that there are people who care about us that much that would give me a place to stay, provide for my wife and daughter until we figure things

And I think that's what people have to realize is I have to get, I, me, I got to get me out of the way. You know, I really do. And that's, I'm not myself. I'm not going to preach it anybody else. But when you talk about that, asking for help or seeking out that guidance, you got to seek it. You got to, mean, as a young firefighter, you probably wanted a mentor to guide you,

Chris (14:35.072)
And that is something I've considered and I've met plenty of people through the podcast and it's like definitely something I want and need and it's not always available in the capacity that I'm, me personally, that I'm looking for. And there's not a lot of people talking about the stuff that we're talking about so it's hard to find that.

Andy Starnes (14:57.154)
I can help you with that as we progress in there's a couple questions you asked about

Chris (15:01.428)
I have a feeling. have a feeling. So real quick, before we get too far forward into, into all of this, did you have a big influence with faith in God when you were young as a child? Because I'm, I'm 48 or I'm sorry, 38 and I didn't have a lot of that influence and I'm, I've learned a lot about myself in the last 10 years, basically since joining the fire service. And I find myself maybe not vacant in that area, but yearning for something.

that I didn't

Andy Starnes (15:33.468)
That's a clean slate. That's a great place to be to know that you don't have any preconceived notions. A lot of people don't want to go that way because they've had a bad experience, right? They grew up in a bad environment or they had a church experience that was horrible. And I don't wish that on anybody. But for me, I grew up in a community where you could throw a rock and hit a church. You know, we were a farm community and there was churches on every corner. That's why they call it the Bible Belt, right? You know, they're everywhere.

doesn't mean they were good church, but there was churches and where my house sat was like my grandmother's house, my house, the preacher's house. And you could see the church looking out my bedroom window. Like you want to talk about not wanting to get in trouble. The pastor's next door, the church is over there and the cemetery is on the hill if you get in trouble, right? So,

And I grew up in a, it was a small Methodist church that my great, great, great, great, whatever grandfather Valentine's star and gave to them in the 1700s as it was a, like a tent meaning campground type church to start with. And, you know, obviously over 200 something years old, you can go out there and see tombstone out in the woods that are, you know, from the civil war. but you know, I went there on Sundays, went to Sunday school as a kid and

accepted Christ at age 14. But I didn't, I had a religion. I went to church, you're told to be good. This is why, da da da, end of story. We prayed over meals, but there was no Bible study in the house. There was no, Hey, this is what this means. No Bible says that. That's it. I'm like, that really didn't sit well with me. You know, cause what are you, what are you young people do? We question everything. They think millennials started that. No, all kids.

Chris (17:05.378)
Okay.

Andy Starnes (17:20.196)
You have little kids. I'll ask you why why why you know so when I got into youth group that helped some I had a really good youth group had an amazing Family that the belt family that that took care of us Patsy and them were just amazing But but I didn't I don't think my heart was open to it. I still think you know being a teenager and wrong desires and easily distracted that kind of thing and

Chris (17:22.002)
Why?

Andy Starnes (17:48.394)
And another thing was that I was a scrawny kid, didn't get attention. Like you're talking about, didn't get attention in that. didn't get attention from anybody. It was not popular. It academic and artistic and academic, not the baseball player my dad wanted as a son. So my outlet was when, you know, to go to the fire department and to try to prove myself that way. And I saw faith in that. I saw good people doing things, but there's also the dark side of the fire.

But not until I got married and my wife and I both grew up in church did I think our journey really began. Because we were we had we had the title of Christian. We didn't have any depth. It's like being a thousand miles wide and two inches deep. You know, I read a quote this morning. I wrote one of my devotionals is from DL Moody said, if I want to know a man, if a man's a Christian, I'm not going to ask his minister. I'm going to ask his wife.

Cause if you can't treat his wife right, then he's definitely not walking in the faith. So for me, when my wife and I got married, we moved here to Shelby, which is way from where I started. And that's where God put certain things in our life. call them divine appointments. People call them coincidences. And that's where our journey began. That's where I started learning about relationship over religion, rule -based groups versus

Hey, God wants to have relationship with you. And this is what this is about. Doesn't mean you have to be perfect. He sent his perfect son. That's, that's it. You have to do your part and you have to answer that call you were talking about and move forward with that. And you have to do it every day. and I wish I could say it's an easy road. It's not. If you read the Bible, you'll learn it's not, it's not a prosperity gospel like people think, but that was, that was my beginning. And then I got married in my late twenties.

And probably at age 31 was when my wife and I rededicated our lives. There's two trees planted right outside my window for that purpose for Sarah and I. We did that then. And they're quite tall now.

Chris (19:56.001)
nice.

Chris (20:00.692)
So when you got into the fire service, you already had a little bit of an established, what we'd call faith from growing up. What would you say as far as getting in the fire service at 22, that's young, as far as most people go, what were the demands, like in your impression, how prepared were you for the job physically and mentally? I know nowadays we talk about resilience and there's a lot of buzzwords floating around, but we see the demands and the toll it actually takes on us.

And it was likely similar in your experience, but how prepared were you physically, mentally, and then spiritually for what your experience kind of unfolded to

Andy Starnes (20:43.024)
I was very one sided because I grew up in a small town. I was just a scrawny kid. Wasn't in shape. So I got beat up in school. So in high school, I decided no more of that. So I worked out all seventh, eighth grade in the high school, got into power lifting. All that. So that kind of helped me a lot because when I first got on the hose line at 13 years old, it looked like the cartoon. It flew me around like nothing. I didn't have enough butt to hold it down.

Chris (20:54.322)
Right.

Chris (21:09.135)
I bet.

Andy Starnes (21:12.208)
When I met Aaron Fields years ago, I said, where you been my whole life? I've been fighting hose instead of fighting fire. He taught me the art of moving the hose line. You know, had 10 or 12 years into the job when I met him. Like, where have you been? You know? but then I got into the fitness side of it because of, don't know if you'd call it a healthy coping mechanism. It was more of a self esteem thing and, trying to get even with people who would hurt me, which was not a good motivation because I'm not a violent person. And,

Chris (21:24.23)
Yeah, for

Andy Starnes (21:40.944)
But I did use that, unfortunately, in school. It did not pay off well to my benefit, by the way. But I did use that. And then when I finally got the option to start participating, I realized that physical fitness was a big deal for me. when I got the process after age 18, when I graduated high school, I started applying. So I was working at gyms and different places to keep myself accountable. And right before I got hired,

I was a trainer at the YMCA. So I used that to my advantage to get myself ready. But then I realized really quickly, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how much I can bench press. It doesn't matter how much I can squat. I got to run and then throw that ladder. You know, so it was a stamina thing. I'm like, this is not good. I'm done in 12 minutes and they're still going, you know, so, and I got to do this for 26 weeks. So I got ready that way. So when I came into recruit school, I was physically ready, but not mentally, emotionally.

spiritually ready. You know, I moved out, got my own apartment, you know, small town. I'm living in a city. I work, you know, I'm going to work Monday through Friday doing recruit school. And then when I got out, I go to my first station and that was major culture shock because a I'm used to volunteer fire department and I'm at a engine ladder house in a slower area to start with, but still busier. You got to consider where I grew up. ran maybe 200 calls a year.

And this was a slow company running 1500 calls a year. So I'm like, okay, this is different. You know, the, the ICS was different, having four people on an engine or ladder. I'm used to having nobody, you know, the whole structure, you know, who does what and being the rookie, keeping your mouth shut and all that. And relearning what I'd already learned as a volunteer in a career department was quite a transition, but it took me about a year.

But initially when I got hired, talking about your faith was not a bad thing in 1998. It wasn't looked down upon. It wasn't like today where you're politically personally persecuted. If you go online as you've got a fire department shirt on and you go on and say, I love Jesus, whatever. Good luck. You know, they're going to come after you hard. Whereas back then it wasn't really that big of a deal. But I know I got to live through the transition where we went from that to

Andy Starnes (24:05.232)
more politically correct world, but I was not ready A for the city life B learning the tactics and how all these trucks respond and all that stuff. I wasn't ready for that. And it took me a good year of just listening, learning, working. I worked a lot of overtime shifts, shift trays, trying to just saturate myself cause I'm 22, 23 years old. I don't know anything by the way.

Chris (24:28.03)
Right? Yeah.

Andy Starnes (24:30.64)
My first house at that age too. I had no blinds in the windows, a grill in the yard. My TV was on a box and I had a mattress in the floor. That's how wealthy I was. I was making $24 ,000 a year starting salary. so let's say I worked a lot. but that was, mean, I wasn't prepared for that. I don't think anybody was. I think my parents had prepared me for life skills, like paying bills, taking care of myself. I could change the tire, cut grass, do all that stuff.

Chris (24:40.114)
Right, you're doing

Andy Starnes (24:59.14)
that lot of people can't do today, but I was not ready for people. I was not ready for somebody challenging my faith. None of that. I mean, I was not. And that's where I say that you can say this however you want. But I live by a three word phrase, broken, crushed, qualified. You can't be that third one unless you've been through the first two. And the only reason I can sit before you and talk about things with

you know, good confidence about it is faith and been through a lot. and not to say I know that, but I just say, have been through that and I can tell you what I experienced, what didn't work and what I, what if I look back, do it differently, what I would do differently, but to help prepare people for that. And I'm glad to see fire departments are doing things differently in recruit school. For example, they're doing marriage and family stuff. They're doing things like,

What's his name? The financial guy, financial peace university, Dave Ramsey's thing. You're seeing that a lot of fire academies because guys and gals are getting in over their head financially because they don't make a whole lot of money. So they're giving them biblical principles, if you will. And they're taking out the secular side of it, whether they like it or not. Your Maltese cross is a biblical symbol, but they just want to talk about that. But, you know, as long as those guys and gals are getting those skills that you were talking about that I didn't have, because I was,

Chris (25:59.944)
Ramsey, yep.

Chris (26:08.347)
Mm -hmm. Sure.

Andy Starnes (26:25.2)
I'd been on the job. I got hired in 98, 2000. lost my brand new truck got repossessed because I was working three jobs and I broke my leg in a moving company. And when you break your leg and your part -time job, your full -time job puts you on an eight to five at a desk with my leg propped up. So my bills weren't getting paid and I had to decide lose my house or lose my truck. So I watched my F -150 get pulled out of the driveway, you know, by the repo

Chris (26:54.014)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Starnes (26:56.016)
You know, those are the, he talked about pride. I didn't ask nobody for help. You know, I had to start over and I wasn't ready for any of that stuff. didn't I, know, so yeah, I was, young and, definitely physically was in the best shape of my life back then. But, know, I did, I didn't know the challenges I was going to face and being in a career department. Yeah. Back then we had close to 600 people, about 500 and something

Chris (27:23.313)
wow.

Andy Starnes (27:24.08)
Now the department's pushing 1100. You know, they're trying to hire 100 people this year. So grew a lot in that timeframe. yeah, to summarize, I was not ready and I learned the hard way as they say.

Chris (27:39.87)
That you mentioned getting beat up in middle school. I had the same exact experience. I got transferred to a new school. I didn't have any friends. My parents moved us to a different county basically. And like first couple days, no friends. I got beat up. Like this kid, I was just devastated. Took it home. It doesn't haunt me anymore, but it haunted me for a long time. And that was the beginning of what I didn't know was this unconscious

self doubt, I just started to not believe in myself. And then I made it to the gym like you did. And I put on my armor.

Andy Starnes (28:16.368)
Yeah, that's tough. Well, that's a tough thing though, because your esteem is determined by someone else. And I had a kid beat me up every day for a year and drove me in

And I went home after getting out of that dark place and we had those concrete weights. see DP weights they used to sell. And I was downstairs in the basement with the rowing machine and the weights listening to Bon Jovi. And all I could think about was punching that kid's face in for all summer. And I went back to school and this kid got held back on how many times he never even graduated high school sadly.

Chris (28:39.09)
Yeah,

Andy Starnes (28:58.148)
He saw me first day of my eighth grade year and followed me to the bathroom. And I'm standing at the urinal and he comes up beside me and grabs my head and does that. And I beat him mercilessly, mercilessly, mercilessly in that bathroom until he ran down the hallway with me chasing him. Keep in mind, he beat me up for a year. We got in trouble. I beat him up one time and I got suspended.

Chris (29:19.294)
Yeah,

Andy Starnes (29:26.17)
And I learned that day, you know, I'm like, look, I sat here and drank this cup full of anger, revenge, all that, that whole year. Didn't talk to anybody, didn't ask for help. And all I could think about was how I could get even. And when I got even, it did not make me feel any better at all. Matter of fact, I wanted to do it again. So you realize that hole that was created that you're talking about?

You can't fill it with that. I became the bully. It's not good to become what you hate. You're talking about being there and having that dark place. That is not a good place to be. So I learned that, you know, and I actually led me down the road to anchor management later in life. You know, all the things that kind of stay there and then creep out later in life. It's not a good place to be. And the kids, kids today are meaner, way meaner than what you and I have dealt with.

Chris (30:17.864)
Mm -mm.

Andy Starnes (30:22.096)
because now they can persecute them through the phone 24 seven and create all kind of scarring to them. for me, yeah, I'm very similar. And I learned that my self -esteem cannot be based on how much muscle I carry, how much I could bench, how far I could run or who I could beat up, which was very few had to be that he valued me first and that my family loved me. And that's my value comes from that.

My dad said values determine relationship. What do you value? Right. And I was value. I was value in the wrong thing. And I, you know, 13, 14 year old kid, what do you know at that age? You just know what you feel. And without parental support, I don't know about you, but I was more of a latchkey kid. My parents, you know, Parents working, gone and not, you know, not God bless them. They provide everything I ever needed.

Chris (30:54.868)
Absolutely.

Chris (31:07.634)
I was too, that's, yep. Yeah, yep.

Andy Starnes (31:16.398)
But dad was gone and then mom was home most of our young years and then she started working and she was gone. So come home to empty house. My grandmother's next door, but up till I was right at that age she passed away. So you you by yourself figuring out on your own, which is not good.

Chris (31:33.78)
Yeah, not always good. Yeah, my father, he was a full -time fireman. And then my mom was a career woman. worked as far as I know. And we were the first ones dropped off at Latchki and the last ones picked up most of the time, just waiting. you know, it's, those things do weigh on you. that's something I've learned that now I've started talking to a therapist. I'm later in my career, 10 years, 12 years into the fire service total, but

Maybe not 12, 10, 10, 11. Anyways, there was a lot of stuff from then that has crippled me and kept me not valuing the right things. And you mentioned he values you first, God, and then the family values you for who you are. And that's something that took me a long time to realize that I am enough, just the way I am. And that's something I'm just kind of putting my hands on

and believing. And so I completely relate to your experience with getting beat up and losing that sense of value and trying to value other things. I had a bad relationship with a barbell. Like I was doing it for the wrong reasons and it caught up with me. Yeah. Yeah. I, so I might not have had bar problems, but financially I was not prepared for life

Andy Starnes (32:46.746)
Hey, at it wasn't the bar. It was the bar bell.

Chris (33:01.404)
underlying causes. I'm taking responsibility, but I put myself in a bad position financially multiple times where I had to file bankruptcy. I had a truck repossessed. I was young. I was dumb. I had a job that paid and I had money, but I just wasn't making the right decisions. And then getting married, getting a good career, like a firefighter job, just I didn't know what I was doing financially. I had a credit card and that

Probably the biggest mistake I ever made. Well, that and lying to my wife about it, which was the ultimate sin for me.

Andy Starnes (33:39.498)
suffered from that my dad and mom ultimately divorced over money they were basically things from each other and that that did not really go well without getting details of their business just know that when you are married if you hide things from each other you're already divorced you can't have divorced bank accounts you can't divorce issues you got to be open and like you said if i lied to my wife about something our whole marriage is established based on trust if there is no trust

Chris (33:43.454)
Yeah.

Chris (33:48.638)
No.

Andy Starnes (34:08.688)
there's no marriage. And I think you hit on a very important topic that the majority of firefighters out there today do not know how to manage money. And if they start off already behind, they, who knows how long they had to work to get that job and they're working all these extra jobs and they're in debt. Like most of us are when we start, whether it's college debt, whether it's life debt or just making bad decisions debt. Now you're playing catch up and then you get married and you have kids or you already have kids.

You're playing, as they say, we're doing just enough to stay behind. Not getting foreclosed on the house, but darn close. We said, what did Dave Ramsey say? There's too much month at the end of my money. I don't have enough to get there. And I lived that way for a long time. It's very stressful. My wife and I had to come together and won a court on that.

Chris (34:53.16)
Yeah, yes.

Andy Starnes (35:04.044)
And not until we did, honestly, we struggled until we came together and like, this is our money, our family, our everything. Like my retirement, her retirement, everything. When we did that, it was like two people working on the same problem instead of me working on it, you working on it. And that didn't work out well. I can just tell you that there was days I couldn't stop at McDonald's and get my daughter, my daughter, something off the dollar menu. And I'm working two jobs and I can't stop.

because paycheck to paycheck, credit card to credit card, that's no way to live. And you look like you're living fine. You've got house to cars and everything. internally, you're falling apart.

that causes a lot of undue stress in my house. So I definitely relate to you on that. Cause I think there are more firefighters. When I talk about my program, the ultimate house fire, we talk about finances and that the majority of firefighters are in financial trouble or have been in financial trouble.

You know, the cost of living doesn't, getting cheaper. Childcare is more than a mortgage. It's insane what things cost. And then the average firefighter does not make enough money. If you start in a certain department in Texas, you can apply for food stamps the next day. And a very large one at that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're below the poverty line.

Chris (36:28.093)
I did not know that.

Andy Starnes (36:31.824)
And you've got a career profession job with benefits and making less than $40 ,000 a year in a town that requires you to make 60 to 80 ,000 to pay your rent. You know, that's what people don't understand about firefighters, police officers in the town I live in right now. You can go work at the grocery store and make more than a police officer starting. That's insane. Yeah. Why I'm going to back groceries. I'm going to get shot at, you know,

Chris (36:55.12)
That's insane.

Andy Starnes (36:59.866)
You got to want to be a cop. You got to want to be a firefighter because you sure ain't doing it for money. And like you said, though, it's you can end up in really bad place really quickly. The part of the stuff I did with the peer support team, I learned the hard way as a company officer, I would have to sign something called payroll every week and I would put everybody's paychecks in their boxes, whether it was a copy of the receipt, the direct deposit or the real paycheck. And I can't tell you how many paychecks I slid in people's boxes that said zero.

Yeah. Between alimony and loans, they were zeroed out every week. They're not, they weren't living off their career job. They were working somewhere else to survive. And that happens everywhere. Yeah. So I, I feel for that. Cause I've been there like you have, and it is a dark place to be.

Chris (37:52.776)
Yeah, it's definitely not fun. And we are working on rebuilding that relationship and rebuilding trust. and I, in the darkness of having no one and discussing this with my wife and showing all my cards and not having lies or secrets or anything in the fog, it has become very obvious to me that I needed and need that financial understanding. And she's been able to help me and we've, we've got a plan and I'm doing much better. I've got

money in the bank, can live off multiple checks now. I don't have to worry about when the next one comes. But the stress that lying was causing me internally, and I didn't want to lie, but it was so far gone that I didn't, I just kept moving through it. But once the pressure of that happened, there was a lot of crying, a lot of tears, and a lot of guilt.

we're still working through, but that lifted, that lie, that secret, that keeping that from my wife, that changed internally. I felt like something was clenching my heart and it let go. Obviously still working up a mountain of journey, but that was the best step I could have made.

Andy Starnes (39:16.858)
First step in healing comes with confession. the most difficult thing anybody does. Confessing something that is dark or people don't know about you or you don't feel comfortable telling. And we've been on both sides of that in my marriage where I've had to confess my sins. so she, like I told you about my parents divorced pretty much over money. There was other things, but we ran into the same problems here and we had some of that too.

Chris (39:38.046)
Yeah, sure.

Andy Starnes (39:45.368)
I found some things and wasn't happy about it. And we, we talked about it, but not until we came together and said, this is our money. Like I, you'll laugh at this. Our original agreement was I was going to pay the bills for five years. The first five years are marriage and then she was going to pay the bills. So seven years in her marriage, I'm still paying the bills. And I'm, I'm like the tightwad, the guy doesn't want to suspend money and

We're living, we're stressed, right? And she said, well, you said we'd do it for five years, been seven months, you let me do it. I was like, you know what? You're right. So I gave her full access to everything. And for the first year, the first thing she did every week was write the check to the church, paid every bill on time.

never had an issue in it for a year. thought, man, I am just horrible at managing money because we're doing fine. And guess it was just me, you know, I'm, I'm taking this on a chin. This is, this is my, I'm, I'm the bad money management guy. And then the next year we had one of those life years, the water heater blew up, the cars needed tires, the roof started leaking all simultaneously. That's why I do laugh about one thing Dave Ramsey used to teach was you need a thousand dollar emergency emergency fund to start. I'm like, you can't even buy tires for a thousand dollars.

Chris (40:36.648)
Right.

Chris (40:59.092)
Right? Getting by two tires for $1

Andy Starnes (41:01.134)
No, So so she comes to me in tears and says I understand And I said what she's I understand why you were so stressed Because we didn't really have a an agreement or a budget or even how we were gonna do it It's I don't know how long it's been now, but she has complete control of the money and when we started the business I made

We had the talk when she came home from working. I told her I wanted her to work with me. She said she wouldn't work for me, work with me. You know that I told her would put the money that she was making teaching back in the bank account and she has access to everything. Every financial statement, all my social media accounts. She has access to see it all. Nothing, nothing I can hide from her. It's done that for a reason. It's accountability purposes.

You know, the only thing I don't have access to is the Amazon prime account. I don't know why, but everything else she says it so she can buy things without, you know, surprised me. But, but we had to do that together and that took a lot of work. Like you said, that didn't happen overnight. We had to climb up and we had to borrow money out of 401k pay a debt off. Then had to pay that off. Then I did it again and had to pay it off again.

which was not fun. By the way, you can only borrow your 401k twice. Just FYI. You're done. Just a little life lesson. Because you want to go back and hit that bank account again, they tell you no. And when you retire, if you O on it, they make you pay it off. Just so you know. yeah, went through that too. So you're not the only one who's made mistakes and struggles. Because like I said, I would wager if you went through the list of

Chris (42:24.308)
Just so y 'all know, yeah.

Chris (42:31.412)
Okay, good to

Chris (42:37.63)
Right. Jeez.

Andy Starnes (42:48.91)
problems that all firefighters face, every one of them would say money was one of them. Guaranteed. Yeah, it's a stress that this world that you're guaranteed to have unless you just are a wizard with money and had money to begin with.

Chris (43:05.564)
Right. So you mentioned one thing that really caught my ears. Accountability. And when I think of accountability, I've had conversations with people and my recommendation is giving up personal accountability. Like we do not need to hold ourselves accountable. We need to allow someone else to hold ourselves accountable because we kind of find that we're, we're not super good at it. At least I wasn't holding myself accountable. So I try to give up accountability.

And talking about accountability and faith, how do you go about that with your God, your faith? What does that accountability look like for you within the confines of your life, your marriage, fire service, but between you and your God and God?

Andy Starnes (43:54.552)
I'm really with God is is is probably the most difficult thing that nobody wants to talk about because Whether you admit it or not. He knows what you did He knows what you thought and what you hid from others. He knows it What I hide in the dark he knows about So if I don't go to him with it, it just sits there and then that inhibits me as a man. It's my faith It hinders my prayer life if I have something that I'm not going to him about and I'm keeping it

As my dad says, God won't answer a prayer that you won't give to him. Right? So when it comes to accountability, few, everybody wants Jesus as savior. A few people want him as Lord. Think about that statement. People don't want a boss. People don't want people to say, these are the things that you should follow to do to live a life that honors me. A life of gratitude, not regulation.

not the 10 commandments, the rules that keep you in offense, that keep you from having fun. I'm talking about, there are certain things that he set up to basically save us and to keep us from hurting ourselves. Kind like the love of money for one, right? know, nothing wrong with having money. There is something wrong with loving it and seeking it above all else. But accountability with God, whether you like it or not, we're all accountable. I always tell people all day long between an atheist and a Christian, one of us is right.

Chris (45:06.632)
Mm -hmm,

Andy Starnes (45:23.246)
we get there I would rather find out there wasn't a God I live my life good then to get there and go there is a God and now I got an answer so your choice you can go down the rabbit hole of accountability when it comes to all that but for me what I've learned is this and nobody likes to hear this so bear with me nobody's worthy brother think of it this

Chris (45:46.973)
Understood.

Andy Starnes (45:53.06)
You ever attended a firefighter's funeral of one who died in line of duty?

It's a tough experience. No matter how they died is a tough experience. And to think that somebody gave their life for someone else that didn't meet, didn't know, may not even like them. Who knows? And they died to either save someone's life or try to save some of their property. That very example was set by somebody that I believe in. And he died for people who spit on him, who beat him. Right.

didn't believe in him and his last words were father forgive him they know not what they do besides it is finished so he forgave people while they were killing him now I want to ask you this think of the person that you have had the most difficult experience within your life that you can't be in the same room with that you mentioned her name it draws your blood pressure up whether it's a person you know or just a person in life now imagine that person dying

Chris (46:28.521)
Mm -hmm.

Andy Starnes (47:01.544)
How do we square ourselves with that? Now I'm the bad guy no matter what, because people don't like say, I'm well, I can live a good life. Yes, you can. You can have an altruistic nature and be good enough in your opinion. But in the end, it's not about opinion. It's about the fact that all human beings are inherently sinful from day one. Baby cries because baby wants wants what it wants. You know, my daughter was two when she had chocolate all over her face. I said, you eat that chocolate chip cookie. And she goes, no.

I did not teach that child to lie. She did it on her own. It's a concept of original sin. You can argue it all you want. Human beings want what they want, and they will do bad things if not given good guidance. And some will still do bad things, right? And if you don't have a transcendent moral anchor, something outside of yourself to guide you, to hold you accountable, to pull you back, if it's just a politician, a group,

Chris (47:33.842)
Right.

Andy Starnes (47:59.854)
or person you look to, how often will those disappoint you? As you said, I can't hold myself accountable. I tell myself to eat right and work out all the time. Do I hit that goal every day? No, I do a lot better now I'm retired, but accountability comes with a mindset where the proverb says in a multitude of counselors, there is safety. In other words, if I have several people who know what I'm trying to achieve,

and they see me not doing that, what do think they can do for me? Hey, come back over here. No, you're not getting away with eight reps. You've got to do 12 like the rest of us. You know, you know, I, I need that. I need my spouse to call me out and hold me accountable. I need my daughter to go, daddy, didn't you say not to do that? Right? You know, I need to end. And when you talk about God, that's the highest accountability there is. And you and I can't live a good enough life.

Chris (48:32.446)
Yeah. Wake

Chris (48:38.74)
Sure, for

Chris (48:45.15)
Me too.

Andy Starnes (48:56.186)
please him. That's why Jesus was sent. If you study the entire system of how they used to do things, they had to make constant sacrifices for everything they did. And you know what's funny about that? We do that now. We try to make amends for everything we do. I'm sorry, flowers, cards, gifts. Those are sacrifices to make amends for something that we did.

greatest sacrifice he desires is a broken and contrite heart. Cause if you said it best until I came to her and confessed it, that's when your healing began. Right? I can send you a card. I can say I'm sorry, but if I don't mean it and there's no change, there's a firefighter who died, back in 2020, his name was Richard shelter. And I quote him. He used to say, don't be sorry, just improve.

What's the sorry, if there is no change, right? If I tell you, I'm sorry for hurting you and then I do it again tomorrow, that's no, there's no change in that. It's like, we talked with our daughter. You said you're going to do that. You didn't do it. I'm sorry. Well, sorry. I'm cut it. If we've asked you 20 times this week and you're still not doing it, accountability is huge. And my friend, John Dixon says it best. You'll love this. I'll close with this. Everybody wants accountability until it's their turn to be accountable. Right. And

If you want to practice accountability, you said it best. is not a singular thing. can't rely on myself to hold myself accountable, do all the things that I need a group and I need to rely on him. I need my wife involved in it. It needs to be a lifestyle of accountability, whether it's your morals, your values, your disciplines, because without it, we're going to cheat. I promise you, we will. We'll find a loophole. We'll do something to get around it and still say, act like we did it.

That's not

Chris (50:58.484)
the lifestyle. I am, I came to you, I'm new to God and to faith and I've read books on Buddhism and Taoism and things of that nature and the universe. Where does somebody like me who is looking to start learning and understanding and feels this pull, where do I turn? What do I do next?

I'm here speaking to you. This has been a big step for

Andy Starnes (51:29.124)
Well, spiritually seeking is a good thing. You know, and I encourage people to read and look at things. But then I also challenge you to lay all those faiths out before you and ask which one of them, which one of those faiths out of all those people died for their people and then rose again. And in the, in his word says he lives the day.

and says that if you believe in him, you shall not perish and have eternal life. None of them. There's reincarnation. There's lots of good things in all of them. If you look at the good parts, but you can find the bad parts in all of them. If you want to focus on that and I'm not discouraging it's someone who believes in a different faith or a different philosophy. What I do discourage is people picking and choosing.

parts of different faiths and claiming to be spiritual. No, that's what we call buffet spirituality. I like a lot of grace. I like a lot of forgiveness. I don't like any of accountability stuff. And I don't like being told I can't live this way. And you will find the majority of people choose a faith or a belief system that justifies their life first instead of having him who justified it. If you're seeking peace and fulfillment, then

then you, would see Christ. If you're seeking worldly fulfillment and wisdom, can choose whatever you want to choose. Cause in the end, what I've learned is that peace doesn't mean absence of conflict. Peace doesn't mean your bank account full. Peace doesn't mean your health is always good and you're in your absence of problems. Peace is the feeling, the experience and the comfort you get from him when all hell's breaking loose.

And you just like that cool, competent incident commander pulls up on the worst fire you could ever imagine. It picks up the microphone and gives a beautifully calm size up, gives assignments, starts making decisions and move smoothly through that entire process. And you never know inside their hearts. Like that's peace. You know, peace is, is that feeling that he gives you the Prince of peace. It basically tells you

Andy Starnes (53:48.282)
that in this world you will have tribulation, but take comfort because I have overcome the world. I know that tomorrow I could have who knows what happened. Right. And I've had a lot happen to know that. But for someone who's seeking, I need you to understand. Why do you think you're seeking in the first place? Who put that feeling in your heart to begin with?

Chris (54:09.81)
Right? No, I fully understand. I can only imagine that looking back, again, my experiences have been something that I haven't really openly spoke about, when I was very young, I was a victim of sexual abuse as a five -year -old. And I believe that that knocked me off course, but

where I am today, trying to right that ship and get back to a place where I feel that I am worthy. And so far talking with you, I believe I've built up this, I am enough the way I am. But I am seeking, like you said, and I do believe it is within the realm of Jesus Christ and God.

I just don't know what that step looks like. I don't have a lot of it around me. Does that make sense?

Andy Starnes (55:14.916)
It does. And does. And I'm so sorry that that happened to you because that's something I'm very familiar with. I can tell you that the people that hurt us the most are often the ones closest to us because we never see that coming. That is a hard pill to swallow. I don't want to invalidate anybody's pain. It's been through

And I think it's a horrible thing to think of someone taking advantage and harming a child and then the scarring that happens later in life from that. But I can tell you that my belief is the reason why God's called Father, because you seldom hear of mothers abandoning their children. But absent fathers are probably one of the biggest problems in America. And His word says, will never leave you nor forsake you. And a lot of people think that God has left.

when in reality was us who walked away. And I think in the darkness, when things are really bad, our pain screams out so loud that we can't hear that whisper of him talking to us. my opinion. And that is very difficult to, to tell someone that he never left you when your mom or your dad or your uncle or whoever it was.

That's why people have problems with God is because they blame God for the horrific, terrible nature of humanity. And I can't square that. I can't tell you why. I can't tell you why Stephen Curtis Chapman song, I'll dance with Cinderella says I will dance with Cinderella because I don't know when this song is going to end. And he talks about his son driving in the driveway and run over his three year old daughter and kill her right in front.

and he gets in a car with his daughter in his arms and his son screaming. And he says, I love you son. What kind of father can look at his son after that and have the courage to say that? You know why I've seen this? Because people with the utmost faith can exercise love in the face of hate, in the face of tragedy. I watched a family after

Andy Starnes (57:39.504)
zipping their son up in a morgue go and hug every firefighter that tried to save him that night and tell them they love him who does that? people who have faith but I don't want to invalidate anyone who's had been through that going through that or how that hurt in her heart I will say that counseling is an amazing gift and I've been through counseling myself I did 14 years of counseling

Chris (58:03.238)
Absolutely.

Andy Starnes (58:07.35)
and still have a what I call a virtual accountability group. We call it the firehouse kitchen table. That is my version of counseling now, but I do seek it out and I do recommend it. And I don't think that those types of wounds should be just talked about among peers and just pastoral counseling alone. There's that book I mentioned to you when we talked earlier called Caring for People God's Way talks about that a lot. And I think the holes that are ripped in the fabric of the

A human soul cannot be healed by medication. I may mask it, but unless you talk to someone and then get guidance and then seek out the one who created you and then do like David did in the Psalms, David asks us, David asked some pretty tough questions, screaming at how long Lord, why will you let this happen? You know, he lost his child. There's, there's things in there that when you look at it, you're like, Ooh, and he's calling God out.

And you know, but you got to read that to see that that people in the Bible went through horrific stuff. They were not protected from every calamity or circumstance or evil thing that would happen. But I'm telling you for me, the presence of evil tells me straight up that there would not be a dark unless there is a light. Okay. Cause the darkness is merely

absence of light. That's what it is. And without God, there is just darkness. And people want to argue that. They want to talk about evolution and that you're from goo to you from

You know, everything happens by chance. I don't want to have that kind of mentality. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, atheist, as Lee Strobel says, but you seeking out the fact that there's something on your heart calling that I would encourage you to pray about it. I would encourage you to seek guidance. I would encourage you to look at some of the books that I've sent you in that list. And I would encourage you as a young person, while you still feel that on your heart, do not ignore it because the world.

Chris (01:00:09.395)
Yes, sir.

Andy Starnes (01:00:18.424)
and the noise and the pain can be so loud that that's all we listen to. And I've had some really good friends who are Christians who are more devout and dedicated than I am completely isolate and shut themselves off from the world because they've lost hope. And I can tell you there's one tactic there. It's called isolation. And if you look at people who spend time in prison, their worst fear

is the whole because they say why is that so bad because you take away hope it's total darkness when you isolate someone who is depressed they continue to get worse you isolate someone who has deep dark thoughts and problems they get worse we are wired to be next to each other if you've ever heard the story of the ember that's separated from the fire it goes out

You take that same cold lifeless ember and push it back to the fire. It reignites. We are wired. We are made to be next to people, to encourage us, to give us hope. And that is what I believe God created us for is to encourage others and give them hope and point them to Him. And you and I don't have the question or the answers to those questions of why someone would do that to you. And I dare not try to answer such a question because I think it invalidates people. I think it's terrible statements like

You know, it's God's will or it's you're not hurting anymore. Or Renee, Renee Brown says rarely does a comforting statement begin with the following words. At least, at least they're not doing this. At least you're not. No, don't do that. So I would tell you to seek and you shall find, which is what the, what God's work tells you to do, but don't let anybody else get in the way of that. Don't, don't listen to the media. Listen to your heart and get good guidance.

and read and seek and pray about it and you will know. You will know. I look at Lee Strobel's book. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. He was an atheist. His wife became a Christian and he put two charts up because he got so tired of hearing her talk about it. And he said, this is the case for Christ. This is a case against Christ. He said, I'm a journalist. I'm evidence -based. He said, I'm going to prove. Does he exist? Does he not exist? And he said, at the end, there was more evidence for Christ than there was against.

Andy Starnes (01:02:44.346)
And he became an evangelist. Now this was an atheist who didn't believe and he did his own investigation. He didn't, he wasn't tainted by anybody. So that's what I encourage people do is you have to do this, that part on your own. can encourage you. can point you to the right resources. But in the end, that relationship is between you and God. Right. They say in peer support, our role is to walk with that person to get them the care they need. I'm not the answer.

And that's the same relationship as a Christian. I'm trying to walk you towards him, to point you towards him so that you can have your own relationship. Don't have my relationship. My relationship needs work. You know, you want your own relationship, but that's what I, I'm sorry for the long winded, but what you told, what you told me touched my heart. And I just, I feel for people will go through that more than

Chris (01:03:23.944)
Right. Yeah.

Chris (01:03:36.798)
Well, I appreciate you saying that and that amongst all of the other challenges that we all face in life has put me in the position where I am today. Basically, sitting down with people like you, experts in the field, just trying to let other people know that I'm a firefighter, you're a firefighter, we're just doing this service -based profession to help other people and we're just humans.

and I'm no better or worse than anybody else. And I have gone through a lot of struggles too, just like we all have. And you don't have to be alone or feel alone, because you're not. You're sitting right next to somebody who's probably got just as much on their plate that they're not telling you as you. And I think in the fire service, if we can break those walls down and we can open up and start, just like you said,

asking for help and being there and sitting in silence with those people. I think that's a great thing. But speaking to professional counselors and therapists is the move that I made within the last 45 days. I think I'm almost at like two month mark with a therapist and I've learned a lot about myself, experienced a lot of healing, plenty to go. But one real interesting thing is I'm 38 and I got diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder.

And a lot of looking backwards on top of trauma and poor financial decisions and disorganization and lacking structure. I've been struggling. I've made it this far, but now I feel like I'm honing in the process for myself. And the faith piece is the piece that for me is the next evolution to my, not culmination, but

my next version of me. And I really appreciate you coming on to help me discuss that. And I hope the people listening can just take a shred of understanding or appreciation and look into themselves and look at themselves and their wives and ask them what kind of man or woman they want to be and start making it happen. And for all you guys out there listening, guys and gals, it doesn't get talked about enough, but the faith aspect.

Chris (01:06:03.654)
in this career and in life, but this career is really, really important. And if you don't mind closing us out with just your experience and the benefit that you have with your faith and how it's really structured. And I use the word structure because I need structure in my life and principles and guiding principles. How has it made you a better firefighter and then a better husband? Because I believe that's where this ends.

that's just evolving.

Andy Starnes (01:06:35.898)
said a long time ago, my faith in Andy is based on his faith in God. As long as I see that faith in him, then my faith remains strong in him. You hear your wife say that?

Chris (01:06:53.46)
That's powerful.

Andy Starnes (01:06:53.946)
Talk about accountability.

Andy Starnes (01:06:58.736)
we were moving here in 2006. I was walking with her and we used to walk a lot and one of my friends got caught cheating on his wife and it shocked me and I was telling her about it and she said all men do it and you will do it eventually do it to me. You want to know why she said that because I behaved like one guy at work and a completely different guy.

said how faith has guided me. Faith told me that I couldn't be two people. I couldn't be, you know, this individual at work that I wasn't proud of, even though I fit in with the guys, which I've cost out or about don't try to fit in with the world, right? Be you be who he's called you. And some of the people I've respected the most in my career, the ones that got up and walked out of the room when something came out on TV or a conversation went a different way or said,

Chris (01:07:45.812)
That's huge.

Andy Starnes (01:07:56.204)
I'm glad you talk. I know you talk about him like that. So I know when I walk out of the room, you talk about me that way. Some of those people I respect far greater than the one that sat there and could spread gossip and slander and talk bad about people and talk about the horrible things they do, you know, to their family and brag about it. My faith has guided me to prevent a tradition in the fire service. Divorce number one.

Chris (01:08:14.664)
Right. Yeah.

Andy Starnes (01:08:24.176)
alcoholism I believe number two you know and I believe the other thing it's guided me on is that you spend your whole life working some job average is 90 ,000 hours in a lifetime did you spend that collecting a paycheck or do you spend that making a difference and people will argue

Chris (01:08:37.748)
Yeah, wow.

Andy Starnes (01:08:45.444)
That just being a firefighter makes a difference. And I don't disagree with that one bit. You don't have to have my faith to make a difference. However, I can tell you that I watched more firefighters throw a pair of shoes out of the window without a second thought before they realized that four year old was in the front yard shivering. And that was her only pair of shoes. Cause they hadn't been homeless and they are focused too much on being into the job and then ended the people they serve.

I hear it all the time. It's for them. It's for them. Let me tell you something. It's always been for them, but the reason it was for them is because it started with him. He loved you first and then he gave you a life with people around you to care for. And if you don't respect that and you're not grateful for that, then you're selfish and you should go work at Walmart or wherever, not at the, not at the fire department.

Because the fire department means you've got to put yourself last. Faith means you've got to put yourself last. When you say I do, it means I don't do all these other things. It means I am second or last. I wrote a leadership prayer and it says, Lord, let me get up first and let me go to bed last. And I don't always do that. But if you don't put your spouse, your children, people in general above your own personal needs,

Chris (01:09:45.213)
Right.

Andy Starnes (01:10:05.082)
then you don't know what it is to follow him. Because he came here not to be served. The king of kings, God's son, did not come down here and say, bow down to me. He came down here and washed people's feet, touched the nastiest people in the world, hung out with prostitutes, tax collectors, and healed them. He didn't hang out with them and affirm them. He changed their very existence by simply being with them.

Chris (01:10:16.542)
Right?

Andy Starnes (01:10:29.114)
how your faith changes you, your faith changes you when you pick up the homeless man for the 50th time that year and instead of cussing him out, you as the company officer, wipe him off and get him something to eat and say, hey Joe, I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. Cause you know his name, you know his family, you treat the lowest of the low with the same respect from the crack house to the country club, from the high rises to

Worst places in your neighborhoods that you have to respond to, you treat them all with dignity and respect, not because you are a firefighter, because he lives in your heart. And you know in the depths of your soul that if you didn't have him, just like in the Bible, you lay in on the side of the road and the religious people walked around the hurt man and left him there. But the Samaritan, the people they looked down for stopped.

gave, aided him, bandaged his wounds, and took him to a place and paid for him to be cared for. A complete stranger that the world looked down and took time to do that because the Samaritan cared. That's, I think the difference is, a friend of mine calls it the curse of caring. As you have a burden on your heart, a calling that you've already talked about, it cannot be placed there by worldly desires or media or any of this garbage that we're all infected with today. We're too busy trying to divide each other.

and talk about why each group is wrong instead of pointing them to the person who made us all right. And that's where we need to start is realize if you want to serve more than anyone else and you want to, saw this on a dry erase board picture before you and I came on the show. It said serving it's like faith. You go into it blind and expect nothing in return. When you helped that person get up off the floor, you did CPR on that dead woman that you knew you weren't going to get back.

When you brought that dead body out of the house, but you know they weren't going to make it, but you did it. So they gave them closure. When you stopped and helped that man with a problem that you shouldn't have to do because it's not part of your job. You cut his grass after his medical call. You went by and checked on his wife after they went to the hospital. All that means you went above and beyond what everybody screams about, which is the minimum standard. And the minimum standard is being executed in our life today. And it's called the new world order of we're just going to be nice to each other.

Andy Starnes (01:12:51.832)
Nice is minimum. Servant hood is stepping above that line and going that extra mile and doing that for your wife, for your neighborhood, for your family and for those you serve. when they say, why did Chris do that? I don't understand Chris. He didn't have to do that. Why did he do that? Then you have an opportunity Chris, at that point to tell them why you did it. Because you're living a life like I am right now. I'm a nobody from nowhere. Okay. I grew up in a farm community.

with nothing. And I've been around the world and spoken to thousands of people. I train 10 ,000 people a year, train some of the major manufacturers. I have opportunities that I don't deserve, Chris. I have a wife who loves me. I have a daughter who loves me, who has the same problem you just mentioned, by the way. And they all love me despite what I know about myself.

Chris (01:13:46.078)
Yeah, that's amazing.

Andy Starnes (01:13:48.836)
Can people not look past themselves and past their own personal pride and realize, I don't deserve what I have. And I am so grateful I don't get what I deserve. That's where we need to begin, Begin your life each day realizing today could be my last. I'm gonna live my life gratefully. I'm gonna hug my wife until she says, let go of me. I'm gonna pester my daughter until she says, stop.

And I'm going to live my life happily because not because I got everything figured out, because I know right now you and I have a moment to do that. And there's nothing that forbids us from being kind to one another. Serve boldly and with love and with a way that doesn't make sense to the world. And you will attract people to you in ways you cannot even imagine. And it's without ego. It's without recognition.

It's without reward. It's because you already got a reward. And you're going to find it if you keep seeking. That's what I have for you.

Chris (01:14:56.528)
Well, that very moving. it leaves me speechless. And I am so grateful that you've made time to come on today and share your experience and journey through the fire service and with the details of your personal relationship and your faith. And I appreciate that very much. I have a lot of homework to do regarding

my path forward in the faith realm. And I plan to grab some books and I'm going to put those books that you've sent me in my show notes so everybody else can see those. And I just, I want to recap today's experience today.

Andy Starnes (01:15:44.4)
That's a good one for you and your wife right there. Good friends of mine. Corley and Amanda Moore. Awesome. And the book I mentioned to you we talked about. There's the cover if you were when we talked about teaching and helping others. I ain't it well about Chuck Swindoll. I went and dug him up before the podcast.

Chris (01:15:47.676)
Okay, you, me, and our broken tools. All right. yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a lot of good stuff.

Chris (01:16:05.396)
Perfect. excellent. I appreciate that. And it's, it's just an experience that I haven't had. I am super, super motivated and expect to learn a lot. And I just, from the bottom of my heart, I'm very grateful for your time and your wisdom on all of this. And this conversation could probably continue for a couple more hours. We could have talked about purpose and principles and priorities

And maybe we'll get to do that in the future. Absolutely. Everybody, this is a priority traffic podcast. You were listening to Chief Andy Starrs, Starnes, and hopefully you guys have something to take away from this and a little motivation and a little bit of maybe peace and maybe a little bit of heaviness in your heart to get up and make a difference and serve boldly. Sir, I appreciate your time.

Andy Starnes (01:16:36.442)
to be continued.

Andy Starnes (01:17:04.208)
Thank brother, appreciate you. Good luck. Take care.

Chris (01:17:06.078)
All right, sir. Have a great