Empowering Practical Knowledge Translation with Katie Caspero, MS, OTR/L of OT Graphically

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https://beacon.by/evolved-living/occupational-science-101-guide-podcast
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Katie Caspero, MS, OTR/L is the founder of OT Graphically where she uses infographics to help researchers share their work, supports occupational therapists with staying up to date on evidence, and empowers clients to be more engaged in their care. Katie describes herself as an entrepreneur, pediatric occupational therapist (OT), research assistant, and knowledge translator.

Katie has completed an Advanced Practice Certificate in Implementation of Evidence in Clinical Practice at The University of Pittsburgh. She has been a research assistant for over 10 years and a clinical OT for 8 years. Katie's work focuses on taking complex topics and synthesizing them down into easy-to-understand visuals, especially of research articles through her membership community called The OT Graphically Library

This coming fall you can join me along with  Katie  who is partnering with Randi W. Aas, PhD, OT of Sense of Science to offer an interactive online two hours international digital workshop for Occupational Therapists, Occupational Scientists, Students, Teachers, OT academics, and Retired OTPs supports in how to turn their practice and academic wisdom into knowledge translation business to empower awareness of our power field and science base! Here is some info for their upcoming event! I hope to see you there! 

Learn more and sign up here: https://www.senseofscience.no/become-ot-infopreneur-2023

"We need more OT voices out there

Currently, there are more than 633,000 occupational therapists worldwide. Many of them are going beyond to share their powerful and evidence-based message with the world on how activity and participation are crucial for health and living a meaningful life.However, there is a need for more such voices, that can solve the threat of occupational disruption and deprivation, along with the competence to secure occupational justice for more people worldwide. 

Are you ready for a career boost?

This event will be a motivational and an encouraging boost to think outside the box for your future career. In this workshop we will give you 15 examples of new ways to share your knowledge, and we are sure you will be suprised when learning to know these oportunities that you can apply yourself. You will be inspired to learn how many OTs already are spreading their crucial OT competence in new ways, worldwide. We look forward to share stories about OTs that will inspire your future career."

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Free Occupational Science 101 Guidebook
https://swiy.co/OS101GuidePodcast
OS Empowered OT Facebook Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1569824073462362/
Link to Full Podcast Disclaimer
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13DI0RVawzWrsY-Gmj7qOLk5A6tH-V9150xETzAdd6MQ/edit

Transcript

Josie: 0:00

hello everybody. Welcome to the Engaging Occupational Science Podcast. I am so lucky I got to reach out to Katie Spiro, am I saying your name right? Is. You can say your last name, it's accurate. Okay, fantastic. So Katie is somebody that has inspired me passively on the sidelines. Probably her and Sarah Lyon are two of the trailblazers that really got me thinking and really interested in what OTPs could do as clinicians to aid in knowledge translation efforts. I really wanna honor both of their work by showing in what's possible, by putting work out there to create conversations that could impact crack practice even after we've graduated, after we've exited academia, those conversations don't have to end. And if it really wasn't for their trailblazing and their work and really. Katie, Spiro, what I'm excited to share with you, and she'll speak more about the projects that she's been working on. She looks at how can we represent the insights of occupational therapy, the developments in our science through formats other than the print word, the written word is an amazing venue. It's an amazing way to access information. And at the same time, it's not the way that everyone accesses information. And sometimes we have to think about how we're communicate, where audiences can access, what we're trying to communicate in some cases a little bit more quickly. Some people are visual, some people are audio learners, and we don't always. Take the steps to adapt our work to represent it in a way that it could be consumed visually. And Katie is a leader in this when it comes to representing the insights of occupational therapy, utilizing the power of graphic design and visual representation. Katie is partnering with other scientific educators and communicators. I believe that she might also help introduce one of the colleagues that she's working on a project with later this year, coming up in the fall, to empower more of us as OTPs and OT students to think about how we could use some creative skill sets to help create more conversation and awareness about the developments of occupational therapy. And having her on today, I'm hoping will also inspire some occupational scientists to consider. About visual representation of their work. We're doing a lot of visual representation of more of the biomedical sciences with figures and formals and tables and humanities can also represent their work using some of those tools and skillset sets. I think that Katie likely, she's been doing this for years, so she knows of tools that I haven't even thought of yet. So I think that will be part of our conversation today. Katie, do you mind if I start by just asking a little bit about what is it that inspired you to get involved in knowledge translation efforts and how were you connected to the occupation of graphic design? Like how did this sort of unfold in your life?

Katie: 3:02

Yeah, it's definitely, as anything, a journey. And it started when I was in OT school as a research assistant. I knew that research in some form was gonna be my end goal. But I felt like a lot of the research I was looking at was really wasn't really impacting or it would focus on a very specific population, or it wasn't always generalizable to what I was seeing in my field work or in my practice. And I wanted to learn more about the clinical experience first to see, okay, what's important, what are the gaps? And then come back around to my idea about how I would get involved in research. So during my time as an ot pediatric O outpatient ot, that was mainly what I did for. Five years before I, I ca found out that there was a big gap between what I was seeing in the clinic and what I was reading, or even just did not have time to read and knew it was out there, but just didn't know anything more than the title and the stack of papers that was on my desk. I knew that there was a disconnect and I was lucky to work at a place that was very innovative, very we challenged each other a lot, so I really had to be. And the families I worked with were amazing and they were challenging me a lot to really ask me what's the evidence? And I would often have to say, I don't know, because I didn't have the time to, to stay up to date. Just through that process I learned, it, I didn't want my OT career to be a trial and error. I wanted to get some information as to what worked to help families be able to empower them quicker in order to. Be able to correctly, allocate our resources and just really do evidence-based practice. It was important to me once I realized that was a problem, I thought there's gotta be something out there that can, really help me in in our. My colleagues be able to stay up to date. I'm a very visual person, so I often would draw my notes in college. I, that's how I would study. So I started doing that with research articles to help me better understand them and process the information. And then I realized just doing that o over and over again, that was maybe something I could share with the world. I love design, I love photography. I felt like I could make something that was visually pleasing as well as give the facts to both the OTs and OT practitioners, but also the families. So empower them with the information that they needed to be more invested in their care. So that's how OT Graphically was born. It was a combination of I saw a problem Thought about my own unique skills and tried to apply that in a way that would at least maybe s solve the first part, which is access, not necessarily the whole implementation process, but really that translating of the knowledge into into someone's brain in a way that's EAs

Josie: 5:56

digestible. What I love about what you've just shared and what I've found for so many different OTPs one of the themes of this podcast and many of the other ones that I'm sharing to, just to helps share more context about where occupational science comes from in part was. Due to historic legacy in the west of women being excluded from academia. So we've had many, social justice, occupational justice patterns that have, played out over the last several centuries. And one of the legacies that continues to impact occupational therapy practice is how stunted we have been able to develop our science base as a profession. And some of the really foundational work around our constructs, the focus of our work got stalled by decades and decades of not allowing women to have full access to the possibilities that academia had to offer from the beginning of the late 19th century in particular, and going into the 19 hundreds. And so what I'm finding is now. Those of us that are inheritors of the OT legacy I imagine both you and I are probably millennials have this techy asset and things we have access to opportunities that our OT ancestors didn't have access to, and we have to make up for some lost ground. Because a lot of. Marginalized communities continue to not have very equitable access to academia. We have many really significant racial disparities, economic disparities, and who gets the opportunity to be common occupational therapy practitioner and who can access the wisdom and insights of our science. So what you just explored here, Katie, it actually represents some of what occupational science is encouraging us to do in our communities as a form of community-based ocu responding to occupational deprivation and occupational justice issues. What you expressed to me is that you noticed that there was an access disparity in your community and that you had practice pattern life demands that made it difficult to engage in the occupation of staying up to speed on academic literature. In many cases, OTPs don't have AC access to almost any literature that's not publicly available and open resource and a majority of OT academic journals. Still tend to put a majority of the financial burden on the academic researcher in order to provide open source articles that OTPs can access. And this is the joint problem. And I think you you identified an occupational justice issues reflected about your own experience and you almost did some task analysis in thinking about how could I access this information? What would fit what could be an occupational adaptation that would be efficient, that can close this gap and help me meet the needs in my community? So you fall likely into the same batch as me. I don't wanna project things onto you, but I'm guessing that occupational science wasn't heavily featured in your OT education. Is that fair to say? Possibly.

Katie: 8:54

I think it was probably maybe more so than other programs, but yeah I, we had a very strong community. Community focus and we would do lots of needs assessments. So maybe, but maybe it wasn't like marketed that

Josie: 9:08

way, and it can be classified in all sorts of directions. But one of my goals is for OTPs to know that even if you don't know the technical academic terms of a specific fancy, like occupational science, occupational justice model, many of us are naturally doing these things, but we just don't know and we're not empowered with a terminology of how to classify it. So it maybe you're totally conscious and aware in your mind and thought process, but if for mine it's cool, like you might be doing this great occupational justice work that's totally in alignment with some of what occupational science is wanting to do, even if you're not fully aware of it. I want Mo OTPs out there to know that a lot of the work that you're doing in the community right now, Is still in keeping with where the field is wanting us to go. But we're not talking a mu as much about the words of how you can classify it. Like sometimes people don't know oh that's occupational analysis that I just did. We almost give it a more generic term, which is fine and good and helpful to communicate things, but so many people feel insecure that they're not doing the best practices, that they're behind the times. And sometimes it's just getting comfortable enough and learning about these worlds to realize no, you're actually doing really good work all along. And this isn't saying you're doing something wrong or you need to do something different. It's that how can we support the work you're already doing and how do we reflect and enhance it as you go along? And what you just offered is a beautiful response about how we can start thinking about our work as OTPs in a broader way. And know that we're part of how we're helping to translate knowledge into the field. So you took advantage of one of your strengths and your talents with graphic design. Ha. Have you grown up with that interest throughout your life? How did you get involved with graphic design?

Katie: 10:55

Yeah, it's definitely was a hobby. I didn't really have any formal training. Training and I definitely tell the graphic designers out there, it's definitely not. The best graphic design in the world. But really my goal was, how do I explain this information clearly? It doesn't have to be pretty, it just has to be clear. So that was always my mindset. And I think that allowed me to get over that analysis paralysis of starting a business and in that identity crisis of, I'm not really a graphic designer, but I can at least get there, get to the, that goal. So I just started and, had that minimal viable product that we talk about in business of, you just gotta get that out there to get that feedback and it evolved over time. Yeah, definitely. I was very much though I do I had taken a lot of classes in art in photography and then did take additional courses and design. So I just, I think I do see the world a little differently than others. Just the way I have grown up and how I've I think I just process things differently. So that has allowed me to which is beautiful and also struggle a struggle at the same time. It's, the creative side of me is something that I didn't really get to express as much. It definitely would a little bit, but this has allowed me to explore that side of myself that I wasn't really utilizing necessarily every

Josie: 12:13

single day. Do you think that there's almost, there's something that's been really helpful for me in how I've had to ot some of my own life and trying to find occupational balances. I find if I can relate something to ot, I'll be more invested in doing it. Like I have a whole craft room and I can't get myself to do crafts on my own volition, but oh, if I'm making like a sensory armband for a client, or if I'm like setting up an activity that can somehow help me in post-acute care, I get enough, like buy-in, that'll actually show up for it. And I can see myself in some ways being in a pediatric thing of oh, I gotta make, I gotta make time for research. How am I gonna do this? I also don't have a lot of occupational balance in my own life. I like, I, it is therapeutic. I enjoyed graphic designing. What if I can find like, oh, a couple can I hate? Saying kill two birds with one stone. It's like an aggressive saying, but you almost can find this nice overlap. And also it is something that can become a way, a basis of building a community, having a business, being able to share. It's this thing that you've been able to meet one need in your life that now maybe has grown in unexpected ways. I'm curious about how it's impacted your occupational balance. What gifts have come since you've started this effort? And maybe you could add some context too to the project, like how it started and where it's grown into with OT graphically.

Katie: 13:37

Yeah. I always feel like it's that balance of being in the tension between two, like between researchers and therapists. So that's an area that I felt. There was needed to be more communication. And that was also, a big pull why I felt like I should blend them together the art and science of that. But yeah the projects that have been evolved, I started just being a graphic designer for individual businesses and it had grown into now I have a membership for OT practitioners who want to access all the articles or all the, I'm sorry, all the infographics that I create and then now it's evolved, which I really love. And I think it's like the best version of itself. Some of my membership, I invite authors to come and speak about their topic, their research, and then in turn I give them, an infographic that they can then share. So it's very much a collaborative process. And it's allows, I think it's just. Allows to bring humanness to a researcher and be able to ask them directly. And then also for the researcher to get feedback directly from ot. So again that bridging of that gap. So it's been cool that to have that piece. And then one of the bigger projects they've been working on is to help other people be able to understand how they can use information and create some kind of income that way. I think OTs are natural entrepreneurs. Like you said, we do task analysis. We, that's what business plans are, or strategic plans. You have these goals and then you break down the tasks and you go to meet the goals and you track your KPIs. That is all. We do.

Josie: 15:17

That's, and then the treatment plan for yourself and for your community. And it maybe is something that could creatively serve you outside of the for-profit healthcare system model, right? Where you're not you're doing a work that maybe feels your heart, your purpose or meet some of your own needs. And you don't have to worry about the insurance reimbursement and the C P T codes and those sort of things. It's sometimes. If you give yourself permission to have a little bit of a side project in your life that's outside of your role like your explicitly clinical role that's what I did in going back to school is I had some things I still wanted to learn about, wanted to explore, wanted to work through, and I guess to possibly overshare on this podcast. I'm currently in active ongoing recovery of like workaholism. I have a really hard time turning down clinical shifts. I love being a therapist so much too much that I don't have occupational balance. So one of the things I did is I went back to school with the online post-professional degree so that I had, boundaried space where I couldn't think about. My clients, I had to think about interesting questions and explore the research and process through my worldview. It was so wonderful that I gave myself that gift. And what I hear from Katie and what really inspired me to reach out to her about these projects and opportunities she's creating for other OTPs is I would love to help inspire you to consider too in as an O T P that might also be struggling with occupational balance. A lot of us are living with burnout. Sometimes it always feels oh, what I need to do is just take everything off my plate. However, a lot of the research around burnout shows that sometimes we have to add more meaningful activities, more purposeful activities, more outlets where you have more agency and more power where you're not being as controlled by your work setting. Maybe you're not gonna go all in and like quick your. Five day a week and you're nine to five. But you can start with just a little side project. I have this podcast and Katie's helping me with that beta testing, imperfect action. I'm an amateur infopreneur and I'm following like her and Sarah's examples and inspiration. And I what I love is that Katie's giving you permission and us permission. We're not competitors, we're allies, we're collaborators. We're helping to amplify each other's work. You might consider joining us in this effort. If you have something you're passionate about or you're frustrated that people in your community don't know about that OT can do a certain thing. Maybe you're hearing overtime. OT can't do that. OT can't do that, but you're like, no, I've seen the research. I have this impact. You just might be the spokesperson. We need to champion what OT can do. And you can get support from that. Support from people like Katie. I'm gonna be a champion of. Highlighting almost any OT sharing information I'm all about just translated, we gotta get work out there. So Katie, it sounds like doing this work and on the side has I'm curious if you could speak to some of the benefits that you've experienced in your own life for having something outside of clinical practice, or did it grow at the time? Were you like a practitioner and now maybe you're not a practitioner? What has that been like?

Katie: 18:28

Yeah, I think and I think you can do this with like within your current roles too. It doesn't necessarily have to be a side thing. It can be just looking at your current position and being like, where's the problem and how can I solve it too? So I think just, yeah, the innovation piece I think is just it gets you excited and re-energized for sure. But for me, yeah, I was doing on the side as a clinician full-time clinician, and then Covid really cut my caseload in half. So I got the time to, that really is what pushed it over the, to the to becoming bigger than it I anticipated and quicker, more quickly than I anticipated. Wow. And then now I see a couple clients virtually, but otherwise this is my main job. Wow. And it's incredible. Yeah. It's been, it's a journey. You'll learn a lot about yourself in this process. You have to, and I think in the OT world, it's just such a blessing to be able to so many people really just helped me get started, so I'm always happy to share that back to others. And I think. I always do feel though, and I don't know if this is it is valid, but I don't know, if this is the best way to think of it, but I feel I do have a duty to continue seeing clients. And that, especially as I hear stories of lack of access to care and lack of just staff I do feel like at some, in some way, shape or form, I should always be a clinician, for that purpose. But then also it informs everything I do as a business owner and I feel like it keeps me grounded. So that's not, for everyone, but that's something important

Josie: 20:07

to me. One of the things I love about the 2020 update to the occupational therapy practice framework for the addition is that it challenges us as OTPs to reflect on our role as an occupational therapy provider, in our own community is not necessarily always in a clinical role, in a professional role, but we often are still showing up in our daily lives as OTs thinking of adaptive solutions in our communities. And we're now enabled through the O T P F board to look at our work through the lens of more of a social model of disability and looking at groups and populations and looking at the virtual space as one of the contexts in which we implement interventions that are not always addressing a medical pathology. Sometimes they're addressing a social pathology and an inequity pathology that are in our social systems. And so even if you're pivoting in your role or showing up in your role in a different way, I think it is good to honor and acknowledge that whoever you are, just as an occupational being and as an O T P, you're part of this journey and you're part of the process of evolving our profession and we're showing up for clients sometimes in different ways than as usual. And I think that's important because our world keeps changing and our context keeps changing. And so us adapting and thinking more creatively about how service delivery can work is still an important part about how we're serving not just our current clients, but our future clients. It helps us understand what future opportunities might be coming about. Like when I think about telehealth, I think about how millennials and Gen X is gonna engage age in the decades to come and how, many of the traditional post-acute care service delivery options might not be. Good of a fit for the typical, there's gonna be a lot more technological literacy among digital natives as they age, and how might they wanna be most served by an occupational therapy provider and what would they be most interested in transforming in their occupational life. So I appreciate you bringing up that context too, and just wanna encourage everybody to think like you're still showing up as an ot. And one of the things I wanted to hear from you too, that's maybe in a different direction is that I know you're gonna have a workshop in the fall that is to help. Support people to see themselves as an infopreneur or somebody that can be part of, sharing information about OT in their daily lives. And you also included researchers as part of the group that you might be interested in working with. And you mentioned that you were also interested in research that you saw yourself in that role. And we've talked quite a bit about OTs and how they can start to see themselves in the role of being like an info sharer. But I'm curious, like what are some of the things that you think researchers can be aware of and what they can think about in seeing their role as an infopreneur as well, and as a conduit to impact practice too? I know a lot of research feel that same tension that you're expressing about. Focusing on being a researcher, not as much in clinical care, but we can almost be a little creative in how we're connecting people so that we're getting the best of what everyone's strengths has to offer. Sometimes I don't think we think about the researchers and how to include them in these innovations as well.

Katie: 23:30

Yeah. We'll, just to speak a little bit to, the workshop or the event we're doing. So it'll be an international event, which I think is gonna be probably my favorite part about it, to learn from OTs or OTPs around the world about what they have done innovatively. And just to get inspired really is the main goal and how you can take information and be able to create a business out of that. And also one thing that I I find is that we as OTs will do something and we don't realize how. We used our OT brain, kinda like we were talking about before, and how that's so valuable to someone if we just are thinking something up, thinking of something a little bit differently or adapting something that is just huge for someone else. And to not undervalue that. I think that's the main goal, to put some value to that. And know that, and I think that can, when we value it, other people will value it and then we, I think it will allow our name to get out there more. No. Yeah, so that's that's gonna be the, we were gonna call it the in infopreneur conference, but we assumed people don't know what that means, so it's just gonna be called the OT Journey event. So definitely keep an eye out for that. Really excited about that. Working with Randy from Norway and I together. So it'll be a lot of people from all over the world. If you're just don't know where to start or just wanna learn, I think it's always great to learn from people outside of the US because it gets a little, you get a little bit more uniqueness. And then, yeah, definitely researchers. That's been my main hope and passion is to support researchers being able to more easily share their work. So whether that's commercializing what you have studied, which feels weird, but it is. Can happen and it has happened. And it's definitely a great way to get your research into the world, if that makes sense, based on what you're studying. But yeah, how can you, throughout the research process, make it easier for that information to be translated? It starts before you even design the study. It starts with talking to stakeholders throughout the whole process. It starts with thinking about what's the end goal at the beginning and who's gonna be the audience and how do they learn and how do they receive information well because we're all, we're probably looking at adult learners and adult learning is very different than what we school-based learning that we all grew up with, which I think in general, learning in general is changing, which is cool, I think. But yeah, so some things, some tangible things you can do as researchers is to really think about your audience. At the end or at the beginning and think about what the end goal is and then think about how they learn best. And then yeah, things like to be able to translate it. Being able to think about which journals are open to knowledge, translation tools knowledge translation opportunities how you can share if you can use a Creative Commons license or if you can create a podcast, asking those questions ahead of time and picking journals based on that. And then even post publication, I know it's one more thing to do after you just did this.

Josie: 26:40

And I say too, from my knowledge and following this, I I think like academia, it wires most of us involved in it. It, there's a chain of command, right? In academia, we have certain sequence of things on when you can launch things and when you can go live. And there's lots of, everything's subject to so many different states of approval. And I want to, one of my intentions of this podcast is at times to, if not just start some conversation but maybe offer some myth busting. But I've done some, analysis of different journal stuff and some of the agreements that you can get in with a journal publisher, they don't necessarily have And infinite say over those ideas and how they're shaped and how they're formed in that. My knowledge of copyright, and again, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a copyright lawyer, I've just, been trying to understand this and with doing my doctoral work as well of figuring out like how can I just put stuff on the internet legally? This is scary to do that and especially sharing other people's work. I do have a lot of anxiety about that. So I have done a lot of research, but from what I can tell with copyright law is often what's protected is the form in which that information, that format that it's been brought up. And often when things like, and I'm speaking I guess to the occupational scientists in the audience, a part of the occupational science, if you are coming from that more Western aim where this is part of contributing to a body of knowledge and a basic science, what are something of basic science there's not a lot of copyright protections around things that are part of the general. Commons of public knowledge, things that are basic science, like two plus two equals four. The weight of a carbon atom is this. We're allowed to share general information and factual information about human beings and stuff. That's part of the good thing about the contribution of your work as a scholar is the scientific process. It's important that we share this information, we talk about this information, and we build off of it so that our science can be as highly qualified as possible. So it's important to know that once you contribute something to a scientific body, it's allowed to be shared and talked about. And there's not a lot of. Personal copyright protections of that journal and of that in limiting how that work gets adapted for fair use. So if you have an article in a published journal in that specific format that went through your reviewers, and that's where it lives, you're often meeting your contractual obligations with that journal letting that be as it is. But you can take a yes and approach. You can have your article there, and you can do a podcast without the publisher's permission, and you can do a blog post analysis of some of the key points citing your article. Without that journal publisher's permission you have your own copyright that you use in all sorts of venues that you can engage with as an empowered human being and a free market system here in the United States. You don't necessarily have to get seven layers of permission before you can bring up your study anywhere in the world. You're not like, Muzzled, you don't have an NDA that as soon as you publish you're not allowed to talk about it. There are ways that I think you can take a yes and approach. Yes, I'm gonna publish in this high status journal and I'm gonna find ways to graphically represent my work or also talk about it in my online membership or also talk about it here. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. We have all sorts of different ways we can engage with sharing information outside of that one format. Cause that can just be the beginning of that study. It can also continue to evolve and have discussion about it. I think journal clubs are one of the coolest ways that you can highlight your work that's already traditionally published, but also let it adapt and grow in new formats and new context and new understanding.

Katie: 30:30

Yeah. That's why I love the journal clubs we do, cuz it gives that feed like immediate. To the author, they can start the next project. Not that they need another project, but

Josie: 30:40

if you've been building relationships with researchers, I'm curious, like how have you found ways to connect with that community? Cause I think sometimes clinicians don't understand that, and I don't, and sometimes academics might not know how to like, make relationships with OTs. Do you have any advice or wisdom there? Yeah, and

Katie: 30:57

I think this answers what you were saying before too. It's just always goes directly to this ask the source. It's better to ask and they're not gonna, no one's gonna be upset if you ask the question about, Hey, can I do this? That's how I've how I've been able to navigate that process

Josie: 31:13

of Do you go to a lot of in person. Conferences or do you find people online? What's been your way of connecting with people?

Katie: 31:22

Yeah, I think a lot of times I make sure to read the article and then reach out to the authors. A lot of times it's LinkedIn has authors. I feel like I spend a lot of time on there. So Twitter is definitely where authors spend the most time, which I think I find fascinating because it's not where any OTs are. It seems at least not in

Josie: 31:41

the, yeah, academics definitely in Twitter,

Katie: 31:43

but not in the us because they're more auto vi not visual text, and a lot of times academia, you're more, you're not less visual, more you can be sometimes, but that's an overgeneralization. But yeah, that's, I have noticed that's where those audiences kind of land. And again, thinking about that for your, how you, where do you pub, if you publish on Twitter, it's might not be hitting your target audience. I think just, yeah, always saying, always taking the opportunity to connect. If it, if somebody reaches out or if somebody wants to meet. And I've always find, especially now as much as you can get in front of somebody's face if you can, but virtually and on a meeting and in, in a room versus kind of an email has been just so helpful to really be able to build that network. And I think yeah, just support one another and you never know, who you talk to a year ago, how that's gonna, one, one of you is gonna support the other in the next year,

Josie: 32:40

Yeah, it seems I think in a lot of OTPs we often are in situations where it feels like some of our work can be not just invisible in some ways, but sometimes it's thinkless people don't really fully understand what you're doing. It can be like a lot of those. Like little boulders that can add up in your Kawa River and really reduce the flow. It can be really huge, right? If you get a random compliment from a parent about how, something that you did really transformed something at home like an occupation that a client was working on, just hearing those things can really uplift you and can really help get some more flow back in your Cabo River. And I think it's the same for academics are often under so much time pressure and it can probably also fuel futile that you're investing so much in these papers that matter so much to your life. And what I find, like you're saying, Katie, is when I have connected to researchers and I have demonstrated that like I've read about their work, I care about it. It's like a beautiful experience to be able to offer that to someone to acknowledge Hey, your work matters. It changed my practice in some way, and thank you for investing in our science space. I think sometimes we have this tension because we're so divided between clinicians and academics. There's so much space between us. But when we, reach out and take that chance, I've had that experience that you're mentioning too, Katie, where maybe I'm a little intimidated to reach out to a scholar or say something, or sometimes you're like fangirling a little bit about some of these people. But they, it ends up being very warm and receptive and people appreciate feeling valued or noticing that there were can have an impact. And I think that's why no matter what, even if you're an o t student right now, you have an important role in fueling our science. Even just being an appreciator of it, being a consumer of it and saying that you want it, like saying, telling A O t A, that we want this work to be accessible. We want it to be translatable. That's important to create the change that we need. We're all a part of it, this ecosystem. One of the things I was inspired to think about with what you were sharing, Katie, is just occupationally. Academics are often very well trained in how to. Align their words to specific audiences. But in the academic world, it's interesting because that skillset is almost to really hone your work over time to being really precise for a very exclusive audience. Whereas when we're going into more informal media and social media and marketing in different. In my mind, it's the same skillset. You still have to think about what are the requirements, what's the venue, what's the publishing thing, who's the audience? But I guess I just want cha, I wanna challenge

Katie: 35:39

academics to think,

Josie: 35:41

Hey, you have these skillsets. You've been doing this for decades likely, and we're almost wanting to challenge you to think and pivot to a different context. So just like you would learn how to publish in science or nature, it's almost thinking through, how do I publish optimally on Facebook? How do I publish optimally on Twitter? You can learn these systems in the similar way. And maybe Katie, can you speak a little bit about what it's like when you're developing something for dissemination on these other platforms? What are some of the things that kind of go through your mind about how to adapt for maximal publication and more of a social, cuz in my mind, like SEO is the same as what do you call it? Impact factor and citation index. It's s the Google Index, it's similar. You just gotta think about it a little differently. Yeah,

Katie: 36:31

it's definitely going back to your goals. I used to always. I swung one way on, on impact factor and being like, this isn't important, and now I'm I'm a little more balanced on my view of that. But I think or I was curious why that was the always the main goal because I think when you are able to break it down, so I guess I'm not answering your question correctly. Let me back up. Okay. No, go whatever

Josie: 36:55

direction you feel. No.

Katie: 36:57

I was probably gonna go down in a soap box that I didn't need to go down, but okay. The, when I'm thinking about, what is important to the person who's reading this, I think how much time are they gonna spend on it? Because that immediately, if it's 10 seconds, you're gonna use a lot of images in probably 10 to 15 words. How do you sum up a research paper? And the goal is not that they're gonna understand your entire thesis, it's that they're engaged and they're intrigued by it and maybe get like. Oh, I was, I, they see a child, they see a client and there's get that spark of I remember that there, it was, it's a memory thing. It's, I remember that there was a article about this. Let me go back to it for this specific client and let me look at their methods section now. It's really just that's translation and implementation happening. So if your goal, you don't have to, you don't have to translate the whole thing. You actually probably can't. But how can you get the main points across so that when that person really needs the information, they can access it pretty easily. So I think that does take the pressure off of people a little bit. I always think about, research posters, how quick are you walking around? What's something someone can see from far distance, how do you make it big? Can you make it bold? And just making things Clear. The biggest thing I always try to do is say, how much space do I have between everything? If there's so much text and there's no space, it can't breathe and it can't really be processed by the brain it's the text is telling the brain everything is important. And then that's not true. It doesn't give the brain time to, to figure out what's important and where to focus first. So even how you set up your image or your whatever dissemination material. If it's like a physical or a graphic start at the top left and go over and how can you guide someone's eyes to where you wanna go? Those are the things I think about. And again, if your audience is more of a podcast listener, this might not be important. So really thinking about where it's going or where you know they are going to get their information is really gonna guide your dissemination

Josie: 39:04

choice. And Katie, I think too, this is also highlighting the benefits of partnering with a network of specialists and utilizing different tools even if something isn't, I'm a very auditory learner, so yes, podcast isn't gonna be my go-to cause this is how I consume information. However as an ot and part of why I wanna inspire conversations like this and partner with folks like you that are doing this work is, I think it's so important for OT and even just how we're marketing ot because if we are truly. The ambassadors of accessibility, of inclusion, of diverse representation. Often I used to do school-based practice here in the United States and adapting material learning materials so that it could be consumed for, a variety of different disability experiences or limited client factors was a huge part of my bread and butter work as a school-based ot. And sometimes I cringe a little bit about. Some of like how, what we say and how we represent our marketing as OTPs and then our infrastructures are still legacies of these really exclusive social systems and ways that are very fixed and rigid and don't make space for the learning to be inclusive, to be equitable to U. Unfortunately, I think OT and OS is in a little bit more of a conundrum with knowledge translation than other researchers in other allied health professional fields because not only do we need to make our work accessible to, field clinicians and connect with other researchers and stakeholders, we have an additional social justice burden where we're trying to be leaders for other organizations and saying, Hey, you need to adapt your, your employment material so they're accessible with somebody with autism and somebody with a low vision impairment. We lose some of our credibility in academia and our academic institutions and our association efforts if we're not intentionally making our structures accessible to our potential clients. And we're not making our knowledge accessible and translator to people with diverse abilities and backgrounds. And as you mentioned earlier, the international community, right? We wanna be building allies. Our science is stronger the more international it is because we are serving clients all over the world in diverse cultural contexts. And many of our research is only available in the English language or isn't financially accessible to international stakeholders. And I don't, I know this is very overwhelming. It's a big weighty problem, and I'm not expecting any of us to solve it like overnight. But when we start with awareness, And just this notion of how do we make the research available to clinician? That's just the start of the conversation. We are very fortunate in the modern era. There are so many tools we can use. Like I'm not a graphic designer, but hey, now I'm connected to Katie. She could probably refer me to someone I can work with, or I could hire Katie or I could use software tools that are now like AI generating images and summarizing things. You don't have to like do the thing that makes you feel like you're in your zone of genius. If you wanna go on a podcast or if you wanna write a blog, or if you wanna do that, do that zone of gen genius, but maybe consider. Hiring or offering permissions to others who use their ZO genius to make your work available in a format that might need visual representation. Like I think if academics, I'm sorry, I'm like taking the soapbox at the moment, but I feel like when academics and researchers think this way, many of you are also teaching. You're involved in education at some level and if you're writing a textbook chapter like I'm doing right now and then also doing a podcast interview that can be included. The students that read the chapter are likely getting their learning and education needs met. But I might have a student that's more auditory and they get to supplement their reading with a podcast that helps them ground their learning a little bit better. And maybe I also can link to images of the conversation that are available on a website somewhere so that somebody who's more of a visual learner can also get access to the information. I think it behooves OTPs, OT educators, OT and OS academics to be engaging in these conversations, these questions, because we have the potential to be strong leaders to other allied health professions about how they could also adapt their work to be accessible to wider diversity. Occupational beings. So like Katie, I'm always gonna be a huge supporter of your work. Cause I think this is important for OTs to be consistent with what we state as our values, our claims, and that's gonna help our marketing. Cause you got, you need, what was it called? Learn. No and trust. We can build people that are enthusiastic supporters of ot. If they get to know us, they like us and they trust us, but we lose trust if we're not making our information accessible. It looks like we're being hypocritical. That's been my experience.

Katie: 44:12

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's all about access and I would also put in the phrase healthcare literacy too, or health literacy is an important piece too. But yeah, I think that's something that I is personally a passion of mine and I am trying to advocate for that, whether it's. The practitioners get access to databases throughout their careers, how can we break down some of those barriers, that's not the full solution, but just some little steps to break down some of the walls of of access. That's why I call my membership the OT graphically library because I feel like libraries are a wonderful place and they allow us to, to grow and access information in a way where we can all help each other. I think it's important to really be translating information in a way that is accessible to all and, and supporting one another. Not to be too vague, but if we can, and I know it takes time. I know that it's oh, one more thing to do. But sometimes if you start thinking about it early, it does help

Josie: 45:14

On the label sometimes. Sometimes it might take more like our, sometimes I think they say public speaking, right? Is. The highest fear that people report of being deeply terrified of and putting yourself out there. Putting something out there to be shared and have to get feedback on it is really, is a tough thing. I know that it's taken me years to get ready to do this podcast cuz I'm so intimidated. Like I'll be like a turtle that'll go out and I'll go back and I'll go out and then I'll go back and I wonder too how much, sometimes there's like maybe a self-sabotage thing or maybe academics, could be afraid of their work being more known in some ways. I'm curious, have you ever had that feeling of like imposter syndrome or I think we almost have to be a little bit brave in putting things out there. It sometimes feels like we're breaking the rules to be talking about things out of turn or like making spaces. But I think it's so important, like rooting into that why, of knowing why. Like to me it is similar to you saying this is a passion. I believe in accessibility. I believe in universal design, I believe in wanting to, create education systems that all students write can access and grow in. And so when I connect to that, it helps me feel the fear and do it anyway. Cuz there's like a broader purpose behind this. I wonder, thinking about infopreneurs, have you had to navigate any of those challenging emotions about putting yourself out there? Or what advice would you have to people that are feeling nervous maybe I don't know that thing well enough, but sometimes when you put things out there, Before they're perfect. That's where the best learning comes from. And you almost can't learn until you put something out there and then inspire a reaction. That kind of, that's almost the basis of how science evolves, I think, in some ways. But yeah. Yeah, it's scary.

Katie: 47:05

I think I just always go back to what are my goals and what are, what's my why? And that helps get me through. I was I was a very shy person. I, public speaking, I took the class. It was hard for me to sign up for the class. I remember shaking, but once I did it, it's just, you just take that first step and get the support around you. And really talk to a, just keep talking to people. I think that's what helped me the most was I just kept talking to people, even, especially outside of the OT world, about what I was doing. Because you need that, like business support. You need that, unique data and that analyst support. You're not gonna know everything. So you really do you quickly learn your strengths and weaknesses as an infopreneur or as an entrepreneur. Whether, that's, it's quick professional growth. So yes, it's pretty messy, but it does it, it produces a lot of

Josie: 47:58

fruit too. And you don't have to do it alone. I love that you shared that this is part of a community process. And that's probably good for me to recognize too, because sometimes IOF early on, being very inspired by your work and Sarah Lyon's work, and it can feel a little intimidating sometimes. But to know, oh, you were, you did that as part of a community too. Like things become much more possible when we can connect and support each other. You don't have to have all of the crayons in the color box. I am never gonna be a graphic design person. But I am open to partnering with. And learning from one of the collaborators in this textbook chapter is a good friend of mine, Dr. Matthew Swartz. I'm so insecure that I'm saying last names wrong because I mostly read people on social media and what I say in my brain might not be exactly how they. Say it in real life. But he actually, I'm proud of him too. I don't think he'll mind me sharing. He was about to get a master in fine arts in order to continue the graphic design translation and social work literature. I'm hoping I can connect you to at some point if you're open to that, cuz he is going also in a graphic design, research translation end and is a huge collaborator in terms of helping to look at the lens of disability and how we translate research to be accessible to people with disabilities. It's not just OTs that we can partner with. We can also partner with other fields, other disciplines that have shared causes and we're better together than competing. That's what I love about it. But he decided that he doesn't need to get a Master's of Fine Arts anymore. And I agree in some ways there's so many tools, you don't necessarily have to go back to school as much as you need to find the bravery to participate with the current tools that are out there. It might not go perfectly, but we'll learn along the way. And I think that makes the work even seem more accessible and more human right. Nobody wants to be perfect all the time or around people that are perfect all the time. I think that's something for academics to be aware of too. Sometimes the high precision, precise wording of academic publications turns people off. It makes it feel more alien and distant. And when we have things like informal podcast discussions or. A video that has practical examples. It doesn't take anything away from the formally published work, but it just adds this other dimension that makes it seem more human, more connectable. And I think that ends up being more appealing to apply in a practice setting if it's more approachable sometimes. I'm curious what are some of your, like favorite ways that you've found to creatively share information? Have you noticed anything beyond, like graphic design tools too, that you've had fun playing around with? Or what are some of the tools you would encourage OTs interested in? Knowledge translation or academics, like checkout online as like maybe initial starting points to play around with a different medium of sharing your work.

Katie: 50:58

Yeah. Dare you. Looking for like actual. Would that be

Josie: 51:01

helpful? Sure, yeah. Or just since you've enjoyed playing with open thing. I know Canva comes to mind, right? That maybe a lot of people don't realize that canva's, like this free graphic design imaging platform that can, you can play with text and audio and image and things like that. So I imagine that might be one of your recommendations, but you might know about other things that

Katie: 51:22

Yeah. I do think, not from a different from separate from design. I do think podcasts are just such a great way too. But in the design world I really enjoy oh, I'm not gonna be able to think of all the actual ones, but there are really great softwares for finding icons. So there's lots of great like subscriptions you can get that allow you to get a lot of icons that can be easily inserted into your graphic designs, which I feel like are really easily accessible and are often are the images that I use as well as photos. So I use things like Unsplash a lot for free photos cuz I feel like that conveys a lot of words and emotions in one picture. So I just try to doing more. I feel like I've done more pictures or photographs lately. Even I to be, for me, I feel like even just having something in print is so much more meaningful now. Whether that's. A printed out book or something. I think people hold onto that more than they used to. Yeah. Maybe that's just me. But

Josie: 52:23

Even with that though, there's so many self-publishing options, right? There's there's some great courses that you can take. You can set up an ebook in a Canva template and have Amazon print it for you. Yeah. And market it with really low overhead. So if you even my pipe dream for occupational science is man, we have nothing that I've seen. And I, forgive me if I'm omitting some occupational scientists that's done this, but I feel like other fields they write general self-help books. They write, we've had this for sensory. We have a lot of great like commercial public publishing for the sensational brain and like things like that. I wish we had more. Academics in the OT world and the OS world that we're writing, like Amazon bestsellers or something, like something that you could just pick up at Amazon that's meant from an entry level audience to read about. And maybe you're a faculty member that's just gone into retirement and you've had all these things stewing underneath or this synthesis, or you've had all these lectures you've given, you have this wisdom and you don't have to put in all the legwork of going through and finding a publisher through, I don't know, like Penguin or something like that. You can just get some of the software that can help you format and put a book that could be for a general mainstream audience and it can be up like within a couple months or weeks, almost like after writing it. There's just so many different options for publishing now.

Katie: 53:50

Yeah, I think my favorite thing to recommend to researchers is to have your own website. Have your own lab page. Because as a clinician I go to the article and I look up the intervention if it's an intervention study and then I Google it. So being able to be searchable on Google as a website is so helpful for me to be able, cuz then you have all your, if it, you have to get trained for the i whatever intervention it is that, list your trainings if you need, if you have your, graphics on there, put those on there so it really helps and then it humanizes it cuz you can share more about yourself. So I think that's my favorite thing to work

Josie: 54:27

on for sure. If you think of having like your own little collage of kind of like your highlights and moments and things like that, and that's actually combining. This might be something over time, if you're interested in collaborating on some of these efforts too. One of our groups that, one of the products of this group is we're creating a potential dissemination platform for. OTPs academics, allied state holders that we have a beta launch of it now. It's called a community dot, evolv living network.com. We're trialing it right now with one of the groups here, and it's like a social network. It looks a lot like Facebook basically, but every member that signs up when you have it, you can have your own blog on it. So if you don't wanna go through figuring out how. Program WordPress to get Squarespace and you just want a space where you could publish a blog with your name and you could put YouTube video, you could do this. And there's a space for comments below. I'm gonna be experimenting with making this platform available. If people just need a space and they don't wanna put it on their own social media, you just need a space to post some things that could then be searchable. That's one of the things that I wanna experiment with this group, is I think we have to take some imperfect action and just make space for things to go out there. And I know Katie, you were mentioning like how much, like as a designer, you think about how the information can be received the most concisely. I'm a little bit opposite. I'm a very verbose person and some of us that you know are academics. I think sometimes, even if it's not perfect, if it's not succinct, if you just put it out there, there might be somebody else that helps in making it. Succinct, like you don't have to be the perfect one. And even if you don't change anything about your academic career and you just have your body of work mostly in formal journals, if you create a blog that just has like promotional post to that thing and you're not even sharing that much about it, man, your impact factor can go up so much. Even if you have work that's mostly for sale and you don't wanna share your things for free, consider just having some promotional content for free. Just having some like small things that link and refer to your content so that it actually feeds up and serves your ultimate goal. I'm curious, how do you balance out, do you have advice, like how do you, doesn't it seem like to have an online business? There's almost like you almost have to have a suite of some paid products and some things that are more openly accessible in some way. What, do you have any advice for folks that do want to build a business out of their knowledge and their information? How do you strike that balance? Cuz some of it, you might have to share some of it for free to make money off of it. That's what I found so far. But I'm curious your perspective, Katie.

Katie: 57:20

Yeah, that's always a balance and I think it's a strategy, a business strategy that you have to think through and really round the numbers on cuz all, everything you do Every, it costs money to run a business. So you have to be realistic too. So I think a lot of times I try to be transparent as much as possible, and I feel like that's helped me feel better about that process. I write blogs, I do a podcast. Those are probably my main free things give out. Even just like this, like having free, meeting up with someone for free just to say Hey, I'll help you out with your business. Again, that face-to-face contact is so great. So it can be, it doesn't have to be, Information all the time. It can be sharing your expertise with someone who's also trying to do something or has a specific question, or it doesn't have to be, published to the whole world. Yeah, I think I'm still learning about how to do that. I tend to give things away for free too much and don't charge enough, but that's story of every OTs life. So that's kinda this

Josie: 58:24

page that I have to accept that I'm in right now. I'm just not, I'm personally, I'm not comfortable earning money yet. And that's okay. Like I, I, at least for me right now, that's okay. And I think too, that I wanna just say, and I will know that we're getting at a point where I'm sure Katie wants to transition off. But we like, I guess what I wanna say is there's also an op opportunity cost to not investing in some of this work, right? Because I think that OT in the United States. OT profession. Our clients need us to communicate a little bit more about what we're capable of offering in our traditional systems, in our emerging practice systems. And there's a cost to not being known about as a profession if we're not known about, we're not gonna be, brought into the table when they're gonna increase mental health funding in the schools. We're not gonna be asked to the table when they're investing in community-based mental health support services. There's a cost in not being able to have sustainable referrals if you don't have a lead generation mechanism for your business. And marketing is expensive. So sometimes when we do these things for free, we're not realizing how much we're investing in our future selves by taking action that. I guess I, I just, we have to frame sometimes there's cost to not doing things and I feel like it's an unending story. We talk endlessly in the OT community about how no one knows what we do, and honestly, little tough loves to my o OTP peeps and researchers. Whose fault is that? Whose fault is it? If they don't know what we do, whose job is it to tell people what we do? It just might be our job. And think about how much time and space and quality of life your mental health you've spent. Trying to defend our science base or trying to wiggle around and explain something you don't understand. And part of that is because we haven't invested in marketing our field, we haven't invested in communicating about our science base. We haven't taught people what occupation means in a scientifically aligned way. I'm saying this with compassion. I'm calling myself out as I'm calling us in. I am gonna be an enthusiastic supporter of Katie's work, of Sarah Lyon's, work of every O t p all over the world. That's staring to take on the challenge of sharing what we do, what we can do, and how we can support each other because we might actually gain more from it on a business sense from doing this work as we do on a spiritual sense, as we do in building community. When people know what we do, we just might get referrals. We just might grow as a social enterprise here in the United States. Sometimes if you have that barrier of, oh, if I give this away from free, I'll lose my copywriter or something, you might actually just gain something from doing that too. That might be something that's possible. And you might find some pushback. You might find out people disagree with what you say, but you might find out that people do agree and do support you. But we don't, we don't find that all until we try. Katie I wanna end this in thinking about do, I'm curious how you see the role of OTPs in the knowledge translation process and what some of your wishes are for these researchers, these OTPs that are going through the year. If any of them find courage or they're interested in starting getting involved in graphic research, what advice and what things would you like to offer them? And what are some of your wishes for us as a profession as we go into the next stages throughout this year? These next few months? Yeah. I

Katie: 1:02:29

think the role that we play is really adapting things to be accessible. And then evaluating whether they work. So I think being able to really. Tap into our clients and empathize well which is what a skill we already have will help this process. Being able to know how they learn and how they where they spend their time, where they spend their days, and then being able to adapt information to them is really the key to translating that knowledge. And then implementation kicks in. And that's like a whole nother can of worms. But, you gotta walk before you can run so.

Josie: 1:03:09

And I just wanna ask too, are you open to occupational science scholars being involved in. In this upcoming event about infopreneur preneur work or have you ever considered partnering with any OS researchers in your membership and things like that might be a nice thing to know as I meet interesting occupational scientists and stuff, I can say, Hey, maybe do you wanna learn how to translate your work? Maybe check out this group. And I'd also be curious to know about your partner in Norway, cuz I know she does some scientific education. I would love to link to her platform as well. And the show notes will be linking to Katie's membership body of Work. And if you think of any other tools or things I'm happy to share that in the show notes too. For other aspiring OT Infopreneurs would love them to feel that they're welcome to reach out to Katie and her partner in translating their own work. Yes,

Katie: 1:04:05

absolutely. Anytime we'd be happy to support you and whatever that looks like. Again, so many people helped me in the beginning. I'm happy

Josie: 1:04:13

to help you. Oh, wonderful, Katie. I wanna thank you so much for taking the time to just build relationships so that we can support each other and getting this work out there. I believe in the core of my being, I think we're in a OT renaissance as we go into the, and, unfolding post pandemic landscape that we're inhabiting. We have so much occupational disruptions roles. Think OT I think is needed now more than I've seen in my lifetime. And if we find the bravery and show up, I think that we'll see our field evolve, adapt, and grow. And that will include our science space. And that way we'll have the power to impact not just our clients and our current settings, but also how under other disciplines understand human beings and what our needs are. Occupationally. I think that all of us are an important part of this con continuum. It's always my goal that you can feel more empowered, more inspired, and break some of those rules a little bit, get a little bit creative, get a little bit of messy, put some things out there and see just how the world just might change around you in a positive way. You get to be a part of treating yourself as an OT in the same way as your clients. And if you get take on some of these creative objects, it can be really amazing how much it can change your life and help you find hope, even if you're feeling burnt out. So if any of this calls to you, I strongly recommend that you connect with Katie and her partner and see what other OTs are out there doing what they're capable of and give, get inspired by that. Most of us, we, I feel like I've been in some OT communities where it feels like there's always space for people to do things differently, but I think if you find things, you'll find a supportive community that do wanna think about what unique brilliance you have to offer. I think if you keep searching around, you'll find the, and then Katie, do you mind your partner too, do you mind your partner that works in Norway? I was just curious, I wonder if we might shout out a little bit her body of work as well.

Katie: 1:06:12

Yeah. So Randy. Is working at a company called Sense of Science. So she's a researcher through Norway as well as an occupational therapist. She's done a lot of work in the healthcare or I'm sorry, like public po public health in implementing her research work into public health as well as, really helping OTs be able to adapt science to their practice. So she's, we are doing very similar things, so it's been fun to be able to collaborate and share. And she is just such a wonderful person and has so much experience in the online business world. She's been doing it for about 13 years, so I'm excited to, continue to learn from her and And we've both brought a unique network of people to, to this event. Doing every, everything under the sun. It's been really inspiring to, to hear

Josie: 1:07:03

the stories. Amazing. So I'm gonna be, I've already signed up for their event that's gonna be happening later on this fall. They're working on doing some publishing. So Katie, keep me in the loop whenever your article comes together. I would love to know where it gets published, so then how we can demonstrate adapting it for wider dissemination. And I'm really looking forward to participating in this workshop that they'll help a way that we can find and network and support each other and get some tools about how you get started if you're feeling nervous. These events are a great way to find mentorship and invest in your future self and the future for our field. Thank you so much for taking the time and supporting these efforts. I look forward to supporting you in the years to come and I'm so excited to see what we do by making OT and OS work more accessible globally. It's happening. It's so cool. I hope you have a great rest of your day and I hope all of you continue to join in this conversation and check out her membership and our group. It's currently

Katie: 1:08:07

available. Thank you so much. Perfect.