Haute Talk with Not Buying It | Unpacking the Magazine Exposing Fashion’s Spin

What if a glossy early-2000s magazine could teach you how to spot the fashion industry’s biggest lies?

This week on The Lexy Show, Lexy talks with Mel Watt and Yalda Keshavarzi, the co-editors of Not Buying It. Designed like the magazines many of us grew up reading, Not Buying It uses quizzes, horoscopes, advice columns, pop culture references, and humor to make fashion justice and greenwashing easier to understand.

Mel and Yalda explain why traditional activism does not connect with everyone and how meeting people where they are can bring more people into the sustainable fashion movement. They break down greenwashing, including misleading environmental claims, questionable certifications, luxury brands hiding behind higher prices, and marketing that distracts shoppers from the workers making their clothes.

The conversation also explores dupe culture, overconsumption, and the way social media has changed how people define value. Mel and Yalda challenge the idea that everyone is entitled to a cheap copy of every trend, especially when those products are often created by stealing designs and relying on hidden, exploitative supply chains. They also discuss why sustainability is something people practice, not something they can simply purchase.

Rather than expecting perfection, Not Buying It encourages readers to question brands, support garment worker campaigns, spend less time online, repair what they own, and find community through clothing swaps, workshops, and local activism.

Listen to the full episode, subscribe to The Lexy Show, and follow Not Buying It for a sharper, funnier look at fashion, culture, and the marketing claims we should stop believing.

Social Media

Not Buying It Instagram: @notbuyingitmag
Website: not-buying-it.co.uk

If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe to The Lexy Show, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who's ready to make more mindful choices for themselves and the planet. For more information visit https://lexysilverstein.com/

Transcript

NotBuyingIt_LEX

lexy: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Lexi Show Fashion that gives a damn. This week I am joined by the co-editors of not buying it. Please show me in extending a warm welcome to Mel Wa and y Desh. So let's start at the beginning. Um, how did not buying it come about and what was the initial goal and kind of like how did people take it? 

p2: So not buying it is essentially a guide to fashion greenwashing that's very much disguised as an early two thousands mag the.

Kind of goal of it really is to engage more huns into the fashion justice community. We know there are people out there that really care, but for whatever reason, maybe they're disengaged, they're really paralyzed by perfectionism. They don't really know where to begin, which are all really valid feelings.

I remember feeling at the start of my sustainable fashion journey. Um, a lot of my kind of [00:01:00] campaigning work for organizations like Clean Clothes Campaign looks like very traditional activism, you know, protests, uh, petitions, in store actions, which have a place and have really helped us win some pivotal campaigns.

But the kind of language and aesthetics of activism is not for everybody. And so it's not about how do we do one over the other. It's about how do we complement each other's efforts to kind of broaden that net. So new wanted to create this guide, and there was kind of two sources of inspiration for it.

The first being Men in Public Day. That was an annual Wednesday I helped co-create at Fashion Revolution. The idea was pretty simple. You'd get out into your local community in public and you would stitch sort of in rebellion against disposable fashion. And the idea was to create this collective action that could happen across the globe for 24 hours.

That worked in lots of different political contexts. And that meant, there was a really small part of me, I'm really ashamed to [00:02:00] say that was like, is this, is this too fluffy? Like does this have a big enough ask? And I was really humbly proven wrong. I think that day I learned so much. I spoke to more elderly men and young girls than I could ever reach online.

And so I really learned a valuable lesson that. You need to meet people where they are in their journey and speak their language, which was a really fun, because it meant we got to do like lots of Britney references, which is my ultimate F. And then I was also sort of inspired by conversations going on in climate comm space.

That challenge of how do you communicate climate change, how do you make it mainstream? And so we definitely consciously bought lessons of that into the mag itself. So tapping into the emotional spectrum, I think a lot of people shy away from anger. I think it's really valid emotion for getting people to act, but too much and you burn out at the same time.

If you're really hopeful, not optimistic all the time, your actions can lack urgency. So kind of tapping into all of those emotions and nostalgia being another really important one, making it super relatable. So we really rooted it [00:03:00] in pop culture, not just from the early two thousands, but from the modern day.

Like really blended the two and then rooting it in action. So it was really important that if the first half was. Essentially sagging off the fashion industry and, and exposing all of its shady practices that the second part was very much, what can we do about it? And so I knew I wanted to create this guide, and I was speaking to Yalda and we were kind of talking about what would that look like?

And Yalda said, oh, I'm really seeing this, the way you describe it, I'm seeing this as a, a, you know, a mag from the nineties or the two thousands, the, the ones that we grew up with. And I had just went, oh my God, yeah, that's it. Let's do that. And so we had the best time kind of running with that theme, you know, agony ants, horoscopes, shady Xs, smoking, cotton affairs, quizzes, like everything you could expect.

We took a really familiar, nostalgic format to talk about more complex and, and less familiar things. And I think it was a really good point. To put it out because we are seeing a real reaction against AI and social media. So there's a rise of sort of physical media [00:04:00] and offline events and there's also a Y 2K kind of nostalgic revival going on online, aesthetically and trends.

And so we really wanted to tap into that too. And then kind of in terms of reception, it's been really, really great. And actually it's been such a nice change to see so many of those reactions in person. Um, rather than, you know, having these digital campaigns, it's really humanized it. Um, at least for me and being able to speak to exactly the right people has been amazing.

And to hear them say, oh, you know, I'd never quite thought about it that way, or, oh yeah, you are so right about, I was having this conversation scale about how it's really convenient for brands when we police each other's actions so that we don't end up looking at them. Um, and so we, you know, we, we talk about all of these different things, capitalism, but not necessarily in that, in that language.

And so to, to see kind of people have their light bulb moment in front of you, um, but also it, to be like this really joyful thing and not something that inspires panic has been, has been really brilliant. [00:05:00] 

lexy: That is so amazing. 

p1: Yeah. You touched on so many. I, I think Mel has like summed it up really well and also I obviously came into the magazine like when Mel kind of wanted to bring it, I guess to life or make it into something physical.

Um, so it's really interesting hearing the back story to that actually, because I don't think we fully discussed it. Um, but I think Mel made a really good point when you were talking about kind of the language and like the audience, because the main part. Spots that were really speaking to me was targeting people that were new to the sector and doing it in a really accessible way, which is where the idea of the kind of naughties nineties style mag came about.

Um, like bringing people in that are at the start of their journey in a way that doesn't oversimplify and allows them to feel real agency. When faced with an industry like this that feels so complex, it felt like something that was really needed and something that I wanted to help bring to [00:06:00] life. Um, and the doing it in an accessible way was the really important part.

So using language that feels fun and simple and maybe silly from the outside without diluting it, um, or speaking down to the reader. Like, I think we have a real issue right now where. Everyone has a platform. Um, and we correlate using more complex language with what is true and factual. And we use that as a marker of quote unquote who's smarter.

And so we then in turn give that our attention. But there's no power in alienating people. And the way you write something is critical to whether someone listens to you or whether they're really hearing you. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's a way to kind of deliver substance without using really dense language.

Like I think there's that, um, there's that, I dunno if it's a famous saying or if it's something I heard in like an English class, [00:07:00] but it says, if. You can't write something in really simple terms, then you don't understand it fully. And then if you don't understand it fully, you can't bring someone on board.

So I thought that was a really good marker for us as to whether we were reaching our goal. 

lexy: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean you both touched on so many, you both touched on some things where it's like, I mean, the whole meeting people where it's where they're at. I, I really think too, like what you were saying about like, I mean essentially not dumbing it down, but just making it really easy to understand.

It's like I'm in this field. I'm someone who's already in this field who reads the articles every single day. And like sometimes when we use those really big scientific terms, I'm like. I don't know what I'm reading and this is something that I know about. So how is this going to bring someone else that is not involved in this, you know, into it?

How are they going to learn about this when me, as someone who researches this every single day, is not understanding what I'm [00:08:00] picking up? Um, and I think so much of like meeting people where they're at is so important. 'cause I do think with my sustainable journey, something that I've talked a lot about on PO past podcasts or just when I'm talking about sustainability with people and trying to get them involved is like, I've definitely made my fair share of mistakes.

And I think that, um. You mentioned it at some point, but like this thought of having to be perfect with it is very paralyzing. Um, and when I look back at like how I used to tell the story of sustainability, I really don't think I was doing much to like, turn people onto it. I think I was being like, Hmm, you shouldn't shop from that company.

And like kind of um, just coming about it a little too negatively when I should have been more like encouraging to people where it's like, oh, that's awesome that you did that. Um, you know, I got this shirt from a thrift store and that's really cool and like, maybe we can go thrifting sometime. Or like, just turning that like negative statement that I originally wanted to say into something more positive.

Um, and [00:09:00] I went to this thing. A few months ago, and it was so great. It was like a musical about sustainability and I was like, wow. Like I am a musical theater kid and I'm a sustainability advocate. Like this is my world's colliding, but I left it and I It's 

p1: cool about sustainability. That's sounds cool.

lexy: Yeah. A 

p1: musical about sustainability. Did that land? 

lexy: It's called, um, it, so that was what I was like, I left and I brought my boyfriend and we were both like, that was really cool. I will say the only thing though is that like, this was very, obviously for people that are already in the space. Mm-hmm. I don't think it would've appealed to people that like, are kind of haters because, um.

What was it called? It was so great. I was really obsessed with it. 'cause I was like, sustainability music, like this is my best, best life ever. Like, could it have gone to something more me if I tried? Um, but I left and I was like, we need to find a way of keeping this message. [00:10:00] But kind of, I mean like movies so much, so many movies that are out nowadays, like kind of really do that.

Where like, I know Avatar is an example where like, um, a lot of the like underlying messaging, especially with the last one, the way of water was like talking about caring for our animals and like caring for water and our oceans and things like that. And so it's like finding a way of keeping that story while like subconsciously getting in everyone's head about sustainability.

Where the musical was a little bit more like, it's called Deer Everything 

p2: Up. 

lexy: Yeah, you should, because I loved it as someone already in the space. I was like, I left and I was like, I wanna sing about the planet. Like that was so fun. Um, but yeah, I think that what you guys are doing and so many things that the like points you, you pointed out are just so important where it's like finding a way of meeting people where they're at and, and, and explaining it in a fun way that's like, oh, but also did you know that this is sustainable?

It's [00:11:00] like subconsciously getting that messaging across. Um, so what inspired the name not buying it? Was it about strictly sustainability or media skepticism or a little bit of both? 

p2: Well, I think as we've been saying, the framing is really important and so we considered the magazine cover as kind of the shot window.

And so we were really careful to not use super obvious on the nose language, but. Kind of thematically allude to what the magazine is going to be about. And so not buying it was a really conscious choice to tap into some of the de influencing and under consumption core zeitgeists that we've been seeing particularly this year.

But to broaden that definition to not just things we're not physically buying, you know, the lab booboo that we don't add to our basket, but also the bigger ideas and the myths that we refuse to buy into. [00:12:00] Things like greenwashing, the, the media glazing brands, you know, individualism, neoliberalism, waste, colonialism.

We kind of get into all of that. Um, and we, and we've touched on it a lot, but it's about kind of, we are not diluting the message or leaving parts out. We're just simply kind of changing how we. How we package that up. Um, and it definitely is a little bit about, you know, it's very much saying to brands and to the media that, you know, we're not, we're not buying it.

We're not falling for the things you say you are doing and you're not, we're not falling for the ways you're trying to appear independent editorially. Like, you know, we're not buying into so many things. And it's exciting that people are starting to, you know, we've got these whole wave of de influences of people just starting to see power there.

And they're like, okay, but now let's go one step further. What if we also didn't buy into all of these things? Or what did all of these things having common, you know, like the root cause around racial capitalism. Okay. You know, once you start tugging at the thread. And so I think that's a really great way of kind of starting with something that speaks to different people and might [00:13:00] mean different things.

It can be read in lots of different ways. And then being able to explore all of those nuances. And I liked what you said about. Kind of the guilt and you making mistakes. I think something that we definitely did in the mag is like, I used to think this way, but now I think this way. And we have a whole page called I Felt for Greenwashing, and all I got was this blank.

And it's different stories of us and the team that was involved, but also we have, um, a fashion influencer, a sustainable fashion influencer. We have, uh, Claire Press, the first folks Australia's first ever sustainability editor. So very much different points of views that, and roles we play in the industry.

But the kind of thing is that we've all made mistakes. We've all fallen for an element of fashion that we thought was good, only to realize it quickly wasn't. Um, and so we, we really wanna make space that, you know, we've bought into the things before. Um, but now we're, now we're a little bit further down the journey.

We're choosing not to buy them and we wanna encourage other people to kind of join us in on that too.[00:14:00] 

p1: Yeah. Yeah. I think what you said at the end, Mel, especially like showing people and acknowledging the fact that there are different stages to this journey. I think from the outside you probably just see, oh, you know, everyone's suddenly being super sustainable or you know, whatever, however they view that word.

And you don't really see all the different stages that it takes to get there, or the different nuances or the different ways people view what that term might be mean. And so I think that page was especially important for us. Um, I also think the name is, yeah, it's, it, it's kind of like a call to action, like you said about neoliberalism and yeah, I think that like fixation on self, like the idea that developing a moral position on something in your head is the same thing as taking real action.

And I think. That speaks to individuals, but it also speaks to brands and companies [00:15:00] and the way they engage in kind of greenwashing tactics and displaying what would be deemed as, um, something moral on their website when it doesn't change. The material circumstances isn't good enough. And we know that reshaping cultures of violence, like those that are in the fashion industry, requires brands to do something different.

And when they don't, it's up to us to interrupt and tell them that we're not buying it. 

lexy: Mm-hmm. 

p1: In many ways that we point out in the magazine. 

lexy: Yeah. I mean, I love that. I think it, it's a really clever name in my opinion. I'm just like, I think that it, it makes, we're not, we're not buying it. We're not, we're not purchasing, we're not, or we're not purchasing from companies that are bad, but we're not buying it.

We're not believing it. And I think that, I mean, we've talked about. Greenwashing a good amount, but I think that you guys talk a bit about the bs, who refuse to buy into. Um, and so what are some of the biggest, kind of like fashion myths or marketing tactics similar to [00:16:00] greenwashing? And maybe explain what Greenwashing is.

If, if someone may be, you know, listening, um, isn't aware, um, but marking tactics that you think that people are still falling for. 

p1: I think greenwashing basically, in the most simple term is a company making themselves sound better, more environ, environmental, more socially aware than they actually are as a ploy to make you engage with their brand and buy from them.

And I think there is so many out there like, it, it, it's hard to, it's hard to pick a view. I will. Start with the one. I think that frustrates me the most, and it's this myth that a higher price means higher, say

both

because you see it so often. And I also think it's one of the ones that [00:17:00] kind of got me for the longest. So I feel like extra rage towards that. But this lie that luxury brands have been able to build of separating themselves from fast fashion and from continuously using fast fashion as a scape scapegoat to hide the harmful practices that they share.

And this is brought about the myth that, yeah, a higher price tag automatically means that they have, um, better standards. Um, and as a blanket statement, that just isn't true. Like if you are buying something new, like new, new, your best bet is buying from an individual or a super small company. Anyone that makes their own clothes, anyone that has a small supply chain, that is where you will find the most transparency, a better chance at good quality materials, a real living wage for anyone working there.

If we use an example of a company like LVMH who owns [00:18:00] multiple luxury brands, I wanna say maybe close to 80, um, they've been exposed for having factories that run like sweat shops. They don't pay their workers, they steal from indigenous communities, they have huge emissions. It's just a lie. And yeah, it needs to be debunked, which again, we, we make reference to in the magazine and there's so much more we could go into on that topic.

But yeah, that's one of the ones that really frustrates me. 

p2: Yeah, and I think we made a really conscious decision. On the kind of the first page of what is greenwashing to say, you know, we're not just talking about fast fashion, we're talking about luxury, we're talking about sportswear and performance wear brands.

We're gonna name drop brands that you probably thought were safe, but aren't brands like Patagonia. Um, and use that term big fashion. And we are really conscious for every kind of facet of greenwashing to bring in a luxury example to show how widespread and systemic it is. And then we, we [00:19:00] used an analogy for greenwashing that I quite like, and that is greenwashing is essentially the eco version of catfishing.

You know, you are on Tinder, you see a brand, you swipe right, they say. I'm six foot, I'm feminist now. I love the planet. And then you meet up and you realize they've got this hugely ugly supply chain and history of exploitation and pollution and waste. And it's nothing like the Tinder profile you were sold.

Um, and if there are any drag race fans listening, it's like when Jada Essence Hall keeps pointing over there, like, look over there because it's a distraction tactic, right? That is what greenwashing is. Um, and I was just saying now that when I was thinking about this question, I wanted to talk about kind of like bigger myths rather than like all of the, the elements of greenwashing.

We do get into that in the mag if you are interested. But another one for me is we wanted to talk about greenwashing and why it's bad, not just from a planetary perspective, which so much of sustainable fashion discourse is, but specifically from a worker perspective, you know. Greenwashing works [00:20:00] to distract us from the human side of fashion.

I really fundamentally believe that it, you know, whether it's, whether it's, um, hang on one sec. Let me, whether it's, you know, Courtney Kardashian and she was boohoo sustainability ambassador. It gets us buying into like these other peoples, these celebs, these ambassadors, the creative directors, the CEOs, the people who are, you know, just the face of the brand.

They're not the, the labor and the skill and the love that actually goes into our archives. And so again, we were really conscious to weave different examples of how. Climate and social justice are different sides of the same coin. So when we are talking about decarbonization, you know, brands being less polluting, it only works if they're consulting with suppliers and their factories.

Who will be the people that have to reduce the footprint? Are brands gonna be financing that? Because how do already underpaid suppliers possibly afford that? When we're talking [00:21:00] about circularity, if we really are going to move to a model of de growth, how do we make sure we don't leave workers behind?

And they're re-skilled and they're brought along for that, for that journey. And I think. There's this really big myth that, you know, sustainability is just the environmental, but also it's just this like distant future doomsday fret when for millions of workers it is the present day reality. And so we talk about what, you know, when we're advocating for living wages, that doesn't just lift workers out of poverty, enable them to afford healthcare and childcare and nutritious food and housing.

You know, like all of the basic necessities we take for granted. It also affords them better climate resilience and, um, protections. In the same way, if brands paid living wages, they would have to absorb the true, uh, sort of cost of labor, which would incentivize them to slow down. And that's an example of how something that is a social justice win is also very much an environmental win.

Um, if workers have. Union rights, they can demand better climate [00:22:00] protections. There's a lot of emphasis on health and safety, but if we add heat stress to that, you know, there's so many layers to it that we really wanted to, to get into because greenwashing as a kind of a label doesn't seem like it covers the social, but for me, if you are a brand and you are making bold environmental claims, but you are not sustaining the livelihoods of the people who make your clothes, you are greenwashing people might call it whitewashing ethics washing, purpose washing.

We love another example of how we just love to add all these like different labels to make things way more complicated. Um, I guess it's deceptive marketing at its essence, but I, yeah, I just really wanted to make sure, we really wanted to make sure that that social story was interwoven and not seen as something completely separate.

And I think that's something greenwashing has worked very well to achieve. 

lexy: Mm-hmm. Well, I think, I mean, that's something I'll always say is like, I think, um. You brought up a good point. Both of you wouldn't, at some point someone said, um, something about like, whatever the term sustainability means to you.

And I'm like, that's something that I'll talk a a lot [00:23:00] about. 'cause I think that this term sustainability has been like defined a trillion different ways. And I'm like, I don't, and I don't even know what that means anymore. I'm, I'm lost. I, I, I have people that I know that, like, they'll like to use the term regenerative fashion instead.

Um, but I think that either way, whatever word you choose to use, or word you choose, you can't have, you can't have sustainable fashion. Sustainable fashion, ethical fashion. Um, and I think that, um, YDA you brought up such a good point about like the high-end designers and pricing and how things are expensive doesn't necessarily mean that they're, um, good quality or, or ethical or anything like that.

Um, I know I worked in. Florence, Italy for three months, and I worked in this, the area, they have like a whole bunch of factories and stuff called Scani. Um, and a lot of the factories I got the chance to go. I was working for like a, they, they have the only, uh, like rescued [00:24:00] leather hub essentially in Italy where since they work in this area where they work by all these suppliers and manufacturers, there's a lot of leather that gets thrown out and wasted.

And so they'll like get it donated to them instead, or they'll like go dumpster diving and find leather and stuff and they'll turn them into like these great artisan made handbags. Um, but in going to some of these, uh, factories and looking at this fabric, that was something that I saw where it was like a lot of the factories that they make, like.

Louis Vuitton bags. They're also like making some of these fast fashion brand bags. And it's like, it all comes from essentially the, some the same place, or not all of it, but a lot of it comes from the same place. And they're just kind of put in a, a label on there. And I've, I know that there've been like instances I'm a much 

p1: higher profit margin.

lexy: What? Sorry? 

p1: I'm making a much higher profit margin. 

lexy: Oh yeah. They fricking put their name on there and then it's like, [00:25:00] ah, here's an a thousand dollars bag that we made in the same factory as that $100 bag that you bought. And so it's like truly ridiculous. And I know that there have been circumstances where brands that are supposed to be higher end will have, will end up getting like a sheen tag or something on their stuff.

Um, or where Sheen stuff will end up having like, like. Syringes and stuff in their, in their packages. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. But that's literally proof right there that it's like happening in the same factory. Like, what, what, what more do you need to see that? It's like you're, you're falling for this, this marketing and this.

I remember that was always something that I went to school for marketing and I remember they were saying that like there's some stat that I can never remember stats. I'm not very good with numbers, but something about like technically I think Androids or whatever are the better phone, but Apple has like completely take over, taken over [00:26:00] the industry so that like we all are just believing this kind of like marketing that Apple's the better phone.

Um. I really think it's like there's so much marketing, there's so much greenwashing. One of the greenwashing that always pisses me off is like, I'll watch TV and it'll be a commercial for like a sustainable razor. This is like a very specific example, but it'll be like a sustainable razor where the razor's made from like recycled plastics or whatever, or I don't know, something sustainable.

So supposedly, and then at the very end it'll show the razor in like full plastic packaging. And I'm like, what was the point? Like, wow, you made the razor somewhat, maybe slightly sustainable, but the whole packaging it comes in is all plastic. Like what do you mean? 

p1: Also, sometimes you'll then see the the percentage and it'll be like.

1% is recycled. Yeah. Plastic or something like that. It's, it, yeah. It's a complete con. And also, I mean, we talk about it in the [00:27:00] magazine, but we have a kind of spread around certifications because that is another like very simple marketing or visually simple marketing tactic that brands use. And um, when you talked about like, what does the term sustainable mean or you know, how, how can we define that?

Like we use the example of the fashion brand, princess Poly, which very recently got B Corp certification, and that is an ultra fast fashion brand. And that model, like the model and the bus, like the business model itself cannot be. Sustainable. And so what we then do on that page is we talk about different certifications, but then we also highlight the fact that it's important to remember that certification bodies are there to expand their membership, to expand their revenue.

And um, like I've seen, I've seen items that have like three pounds on Princess Polly. 

lexy: Mm-hmm. 

p1: Like, it, it's just a clear example of a marketing tactic, um, that's used to [00:28:00] greenwash. 

lexy: Yeah. I did a whole video and a whole blog post on Princess Poly and the, one of the first brands that ever got B Corp certified left the certification because they were like, it's become way too lenient.

I know that B Corp said something about like redefining their process, I think in like 2026. So we'll see what happens. Um, but yeah, that was like the biggest red flag to me. I was like, certifications. I'll tell people when, you know, like if you're at a store and you wanna check or like you're, you're just starting to get into sustainability.

I'm like, certifications are something that you can maybe look at to like, make the, the research process a little easier. Like, OCO text is one that, um, I've like, met with them before and spoken with them and like they, they [00:29:00] will kind of like make sure, I think it's that the, the fabric and the product has been, um, cleared of like this, this list that they have of how many chemicals and things like that and dyes and whatever.

And I'm like, that's like, it's definitely a good. First step, you know, like if you're getting into sustainability and you don't know where to start, and you see something that says like otx, it's like, okay, you have your foot in the door. Like, yes. But just because the certification is there doesn't mean like it's sustainable, it's ethical.

All the research is done. It's like it, okay, we see that. Now what can we, what research can we do to kind of like deep deepen our understanding of this product, of this brand to make sure we're not just falling for the greenwashing? 

p2: Yeah. We kind of make the same point, but for brands that certifications are their first step, it's not an end goal.

Um, and we, we don't completely write off certifications completely. Like we talk about the fact that there are [00:30:00] very, there's a lot, there are a lot of high scoring, really brilliant brands. On B Corp. Um, and that they have been tightening up some of their certification criteria. So it feels a bit insane to say this, but now if you have a vested interest in weapons and fossil fuels, you can't be certified.

I dunno why that wasn't standard. Um, and you know, brands who have to recertify every, every three years, but it's about it kind of anything. We, you know, these are very, we have to take a holistic approach to brands and there's no certification that can encapture every single thing that we, that they do.

And so sometimes it can be a good indication, but we don't treat it as the, the be all and end all. 

lexy: Exactly. Yeah, completely. Um, well you mentioned earlier, uh, the beloved lab booboos that are around nowadays. Um, and I think that we're seeing so much of this, so much of this push of like. These random things that are trending.

Um, and then on top of that, we're seeing a lot of like [00:31:00] dupe culture on TikTok and social media, um, which is like, you know, the obsession with cheap lookalikes. Um, so how does that kind of play into over consumption?

p1: I will preface this answer by saying I downloaded TikTok this year. I dunno if that's relevant or if that's just showing my age, but, um, but for me, I think there, I think there's two parts to this. So I think one is about individuals and I think one about corporations. And I think when we talk about. Any type of consumerism.

We are by extension, talking about social media and our relationship to the digital world. And we were talking about luxury fashion just there. And we know that Gen Z in particular, despite their huge spending [00:32:00] power, are the generation that luxury fashion hasn't been able to tap into because that generation doesn't see value in it.

And, um, I'm not defending luxury fashion. I just think it gives a really good insight into how Duke culture has arisen from this change in what value is defined as. So before it might have been, um, a label and now it's what does it look like for a video or a trend? What, how am I able to be part of this culture and movement and how does this item allow me to be?

Part of this wider online world right now. And then that becomes so much more important than who's made the item. How was it made where it's going to end up the speed of expecting to buy the item? The never ending trend cycle and the [00:33:00] expectation for instant gratification are all part of overconsumption.

The second part is that the Duke industry is built off stealing designs. So corporations are creating this environment where they're drooping these items and directly feeding into devaluing small businesses and independent designers. And then the irony is that. These brands rip off the designs and they actively play into the downfall of small businesses.

And then these designs are no longer there to be created. Like it, it doesn't make any sense. They're, these are the designs that people want to buy, and then these brands are completely wiping them out. I've also seen this being said a few times on online, but I think it's really important that there is a difference between [00:34:00] an alternative and a stoop.

And if we are looking for something in our price bracket that is a similar style that will exist in a variety of secondhand spaces.

p2: Yeah, I, I completely agree. I think defenses of Jupe culture. Read like defense is a fast fashion, this idea that it's democratizing, but it then very quickly becomes a slippery slope into entitlement and the right to overconsume. And so often we live leave out the most underprivileged from the equation.

And so it's, you know, I should be able to, it's, it's not the procurement rights of clothes exist, but that's not how it's being framed. It's, I have the right to buy a cheap item of clothing whenever I have the whim. Um, and we're not extending that to [00:35:00] garment workers who can't even afford the clove that we want to keep over over consuming.

And I think it's interesting because, you know, there's been a huge backlash against generative ai, of which I'm very much. On board with fuck ai. Um, I hope I can swear, but if I can swear and I've only had to swear once, then it will be fuck ai. Um, and that that's, you know, people are uproar that it's stealing artists' work, it's replicating, you know, it's ripping off musicians and artists and writers.

And I think we need to apply that same level of criticism and shame at Duke culture in a way. And I do think it's important to make that distinction between alternatives. Um, you know, there is definitely that argument that there is only so many kind of trends and designs you can, you can ever create.

But I was watching a YouTube video the other day. There's this, um, currently in my deep dive writing about, um, the intersection of AI and fashion. And there's this, um, brand who call themselves like an AI driven fashion house. They're called fines. And [00:36:00] what they do is they scrape social media for trends and what celebrities are wearing and then kind of like recreate it and then market it using AI generated images.

So the images aren't even of the actual product. And then they arrive and they look nothing like what it was sold as. And I think from that perspective, you know, es so often I, I wanna, you know, are much worse quality and they, you know, are ent sense of entitlement for a Jupe straightaway is, is is creating a one-way ticket to landfill.

And I'll also say is that these kind of Duke houses, these fashion brands have a much murkier supply chain than your average fashion brand. Um, we definitely know a lot less around who is actually making these Dees. Um, and I think in that instance it makes it a perfect environment for exploitation. And so I, I think completely resonate with the.

Want to participate in trends and there are sustainable ways to do [00:37:00] that. But yeah, I think ju are something that definitely deserves more criticism without instantly being like, you hate poor people, and it's not, we want to make sure that all poor people are within that equation and conversation. 

lexy: Yeah.

Well, I think, I mean, 

I mean, 

just bringing up so many, 

bringing up so many great things. 

It's like back in the day for me, back in the day, I'm like 22 years old. I'm like, ugh. Back in the day. But for me and how I've always done my life and spending is like, um, like if I wanted something, I would save up and I would work all year round and like I would, you know, have my little like.

God, what is it called? Like a little piggy bank. Um, and I would save and I would like work at my lifeguarding job and like babysit and get paid to do whatever I could get paid do to save up for something that I really, really [00:38:00] wanted. And I think Yda, you brought up a great point of like Gen ZI don't feel like is doing that quite as much or maybe like, not even just Gen Z, but like us as human beings.

Ever since, ever since I really feel like I, I mean obviously it was happening a more and more, um, but in 2020 when we were all in lockdown and we were all on our phones, it just like really picked up the pace of like, marketing, getting so many things thrown your way. And then now we have like TikTok shop and like all of these apps that we can just, like, I was just having this conversation with my brother.

Because he was like, I think there's like this epidemic of like loneliness where like ever since the pandemic, there's been so many easy ways, there's been so many creations of like easy ways to just do things from your phone and like not have to leave your house. And like, it's kind of crazy that like you're, I don't know, burrito can like get a very nice like drive with a driver to just be [00:39:00] delivered to your house.

And like, like it's crazy that we're able to just like very easily do these things and have them delivered to your house in a second for like super cheaply too. And we've really stopped. Valuing our things and valuing going outside and having in-person interactions with people and going to the store and going to the thrift shop and like whatever.

And like everything is just like, how can we make this more convenient? And I'm like, yeah, like convenience is great, but why does it need to be that convenient? Like I was even having this conversation just about myself and my phones, and I was like. There's this actor so stupid, but there's this actor, uh, Woody Harrelson who said a quote once that I was like, this is how I wanna live my life.

Where he was like, I never want to be too easily accessible to anybody in my life at any given point in time. And I was like, that's kinda how I feel like with our phones nowadays. [00:40:00] We're just like expected to constantly be responding back and like, we need to always be texting people. And I was like, if I'm always texting people, I'm never going to be off of my phone.

Like, I'm literally going to be constantly having, like, if I'm expected to respond immediately, then they're expected to respond immediately. And then we're gonna be having no face-to-face time. I'm gonna see this person tomorrow in person and we're gonna have nothing to speak about. And I'm gonna go on Amazon and order this thing and have it arrive to my house tomorrow, or I'm gonna.

Go on Uber Eats and buy something, and it's gonna be at my house in 20 minutes. And my burrito got a very nice ride, like in a, in a fricking Tesla or something to come to me. And it's like, this is ridiculous. Like, how have we made it like this convenient? Like, I'm like, we've lost, I, we've really lost the plot.

Um, and I think like there's literally like Black Mirror episodes about some of the things that are going on in our life nowadays that we're [00:41:00] just like not even batting an eye at. Um, and I'm, I'm like, like how do we not see, like there are tons of movies about like robots taking over and like AI getting out of control or our connection with our phones being like, ridiculous.

And yet we're still doing this and we're like actively participating in. Our demise, basically. Um, I have to laugh or I'll cry. And so it's, 

p1: and I just say on that black mirror thing that you were saying, the most recent, uh, like video that I saw was, it was in London and someone was videoing someone and it was a billboard ad and there was a real person inside the billboard.

So they were like basically being paid to be an advert. And that was like. It, it, you couldn't, like, you just can't write it anymore. Like I think that's why Black Mirror also isn't even that like interesting or shocking anymore because we are just living every single thing that the writers can think of though.

That one's wild. 

p2: [00:42:00] Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah. And also he was like not into, he was like not supposed to interact with the public either. He was just supposed to like go on with his life. Like he's like on this lounger reading a book. Can I also say one more thing that just came to me? You know why I also don't like ju the word?

Um, we've been talking so much about how language is important. I think about secondhand. Secondhand for me is still associated with that very stigmatized version of Hand Me Down clothing and, and charity shops. And it has honestly given me whiplash. It mostly a positive way to see like how popularized like thrifting, which is such a, we use that in the uk, which is such a strange, it's like a American export because we don't really have thrift shops.

We have charity shops. Um, and so that's now been repackaged as pre loved, which I don't hate as a term 'cause I love the idea of it carrying stories, but it's been interesting that it's required that why are we saying Jes? Which first of all is like a cute [00:43:00] little, uh, abbreviation. Is abbreviation the word a short and then of, um, duplicate whatever happened to counterfeit or ripoff or knockoff?

Because if we called things, what that I just, I just, it's a small point, but I just think about jupe like, oh, cute Jupe and how that is like helping normalize and glamorize the culture. 

lexy: No, it completely is. 

p2: Yeah, completely. 

lexy: I mean, you've, you've turned. Literally the term duplicate into like a cute little, like, oh, shop the Es so cute, just 

p2: bad things.

lexy: How cheap duplicate. And it's like, oh, you found a cheaper duplicate. And that was ripped off from, sorry, ripped from the like, let's make like, if we're gonna make everything acute, where like, let's just keep those good vibes going. Um, and it's like, no, it's so true. It's, and we're all, I mean, a lot of us are falling for it.

I mean that's, that's so much of what we're seeing nowadays. And it's like, what? Like, let's go back, I've said this so many times, but like, oh, it's great that we live in [00:44:00] 2025, almost 2026. Oh God. That's crazy. Um, it's, it's amazing that we like, you know, have so many great technologies and that there's things that can make.

Sustainable fashion, like more accessible and, um, it's great. But a lot of sustainability is just kind of going back to the basics and like going back to the way that we used to do things and, you know, appreciating artisan made things and handcrafted and things that are Yes, maybe more expensive because everyone on that supply chain has been paid correctly.

And you know, it's made from good fabrics that it, and it's, it took time to make it so when you wash it or whatever, it's not gonna literally derate after one wash and then release a trillion microplastics into our ocean. Um, and, you know, yes, there's that, but also just, you know, reusing things, keeping things crafting.

I mean, I, I, I've been talking a lot about like how my family does thrift miss, um, and like how I'll do thrift miss with my friends. I've [00:45:00] been. You know, kind of getting together all my Christmas gifts for the end of the year, um, for anyone in my life. And I'm like, I literally have a whole box of things that I've just thrifted throughout the year, um, or things that I bought for myself and I love them and they're great quality, but I'm just not wearing them.

They're not really my style anymore, but they're still really nice that I know, like my one friend will like, because it's so much more her style than it is mine. And it's like, these are all sustainable things. Or literally just like taking your fricking shoes to a shoe repair place. Or I have a whole bag of clothes.

And that was something that I asked for this year with my parents. I was like, they're like, Lexi, what do you want? And I was like, honestly, there's like two things that I want, two big things that I want, that I've been looking at all year. And I'm like, I. Those are the two things that I want. And then other than that, just give me some budget to take this like bag of things that I want, that I have to the tailor because they're great [00:46:00] pieces.

Um, but I'm just not wearing them because you know, they have a hole in them or they, I want them to be low wasted or they're just a little too big or a little too small. And so it's like we used to take these things. We used to like care about our clothes. Like let's, we lost the plot guys. 

p2: I think when we were writing it and with the hope of sort of inspiring people.

It became apparent that didn't kind of wanna abandon them after they had read that. Like, if you've got all this inspiration and energy, like where do you put that? Um, and so really wanted to create a kind of community platform, which looks like lots of things like our Instagram and, and substack where we can delve deeper and, you know, have more back and forth conversations, but also to do a lot of in-person events that, again, the framing might not seem like we're talking about bigger things or those deeper changes we've done, um, bad charms made out of secondhand, uh, beads and materials.

We've [00:47:00] done, um, DIY zines and we've got lots of like fun activities planned for, for the new year. Um, and it's. Really a springboard, for example, mend in public day. You know, the takeaway really was that, um, our clothes are broken, they need mending. But it was this springboard, this conversation on actually the whole fashion industry is broken by design and, and how do we fix that?

And so I don't think I'm going to change the world overnight with these events, but I think it's about just creating a safe space where people can show up as they are and have this sense of community. We all feel really lonely. I feel especially lonely. I don't live anywhere where there are young people, literally young people around me.

Um, and so wanting to create a space where you can come as you are, um, and it's that kind of the joyfulness and the connections that help you kind of. Uh, cringe, but step into your power and, and see how you can make a difference. And I think gotta do the work, first of all, [00:48:00] of creating that safe space for people to join.

Um, and, you know, we're still sharing actions and, and how they can support campaigns and longer term collaborating with like NGOs and translating their messages to this audience. But yeah, I think part of it is fun. Part of it's selfishness of me getting to like, make new friends and meet up with people.

And then there is this kind of like wider mission of kind of recruiting more people to the calls without kind of spoonfeeding or, or forcing them in any way. Making people want to show up, I suppose, is the goal. 

p1: Yeah, I think, I think that, I mean, Mel's, Mel's doing these events, but I think like what she's saying right now.

Really ties into what we were just talking about, about like the pace of everything being permanently online and like being, uh, completely accessible to everyone. Like in, in the current climate of having more, more, more, and being able to access everything. I think [00:49:00] we, it seems like we all feel a huge sense of loss and the simplicity and like a sense of wonder.

I think we can call it like when we look back lives in community and the very nature of the events that Mel's running, like these sorts of meetups and also kind of grassroots campaign spaces in general is built out of community. Like I've met some of the most amazing people and coexisted in these sorts of.

Spaces that have the power to make you feel really present and like spending less time online helps us slow down and slowing down helps us to consume consciously. So it's a, it's all just deeply interlinked. So I, I do think you're changing the world. 

lexy: I agree. Thank you. Trying, [00:50:00] I think, I mean, I think that's so much of, again, like the sustainability space is like this climate anxiety we're all feeling and it's like, oh God, I love this example because I'm like, this is genuinely like what working in sustainability and the planet is like, um, I was on like a really unfortunate, like 40 minute flight and I was like, I'm already feeling really bad about this.

Like, not feeling great. It's like 40 minutes, we're gonna get up in the air. Then two seconds later we're gonna get down and land. And I was like, this feels horrible. And then on top of that, so I had my headphones in, my carry-on, my carry-on ended up not fitting underneath like the chair, whatever. So I ended up putting it overhead and I was like, Ugh, I could go get my headphones, but it's like literally a 40 minute flight.

Like, might as well just sit here and like, I don't know, try to take a nap or something. And I ended up sitting there and I was, and they, in this 40 minute flight, they start handing out [00:51:00] these water bottles and I, it literally sent me into a spiral. 'cause I was like, I'm on a 40 minute flight. There's like, I don't even know how many people an airplane fits, but a lot of people on this flight and then they're handing out water bottles.

And I was like, oh God. Like there are so many flights throughout every single day. Across the entire world. And in every single one of them, they're handing out water bottles or like plastic cups. And I was like, God, like what is it that I'm doing? Like how am I supposed to, what, what can I do? Like how it literally sent me into a spiral and I got off the flight and all my friends, we were all sited in different, seated in different pla places on the flight.

And I was telling them about my spiral and they were like, Lexi, I was like listening to music. Like how did you have like a full blown, like I'm, I need to change the world. I need to get in contact with like every airline to ever exist to make sure they're not doing [00:52:00] plastic water bottles. Like you really got motivated by that 40 minute flight when all I did was sleep and I was like, yeah, this is what working in the environment is.

And I was like, that was like such a prime example to me of like climate anxiety where I was like, I left that flight and I was like, I literally don't know what I'm doing. Um. Or if that anything I'm doing is having any impact. But then I'll go to events, like a beach cleanup. I I, there's this amazing organization here in Los Angeles called Heal the Bay, and they like work on cleaning our beaches.

And after the fires that happened here in California at the beginning of the year, they really did a lot of research and a lot of like action on getting our beaches, you know, cleaned again, getting our oceans clean again, and they'll have beach cleanups. And that's something that I'm like, you know, a lot of people question beach cleanups, like, what's really the impact?

Like, you're picking up some plastic on a beach, that's huge. And I'm like, okay. For me, like I leave beach cleanup and I feel like I can change the world. Like I feel motivated or I leave that musical about. [00:53:00] And I feel like I can change the world, and it, it gives, it, it clears, you know, away a little bit of my climate anxiety.

It gets me directly involved and out in nature and touching grass and whatever. And it gets me surrounded by people who are also interested in this so that it makes me feel a little less alone. And I'm like, and it keeps me motivated to keep going and then heal The Bay is amazing. And they'll like use the research and the stats for like, how many plastic pieces were picked up and they'll take it to legislation.

And it's directly changed a lot of, um, things actually in Los Angeles. So it makes me feel a lot better about beach cleanups. But like truly, it, it, going to these like in-person things for sustainability makes me feel so empowered and makes me feel like I can keep going. And so I, I do think that that has.

You know, plays a role in, in changing the world. And so I do think charity shop crawl is in any in-person thing that you can do. Like, while [00:54:00] maybe it seems like it's not changing the world is motivating people and connecting people. And that's like, again, one of those like first big pushes into the sustainability space where it's like, how do I get involved, meet other people that are like this and do research and start talking about it.

And the more you talk about it, talk about it, the more other people are gonna get involved. So that gives you any peace of mind. Um, but, 

p2: oh, listen back to this, whenever I've doubted myself. 

lexy: Yeah, there you go. Um, so I always like to end my podcast on what are some top tips for someone you would give to someone who's just starting their journey to a more sustainable lifestyle?

p2: Um, for me it would be to shed the label that your consumer. I think it's, we talk about this a lot in the mag. I think it can be like super reductive both to you, the individual and your sense of self, but also to your, your power and your capacity for change. I definitely think [00:55:00] we've all felt it. Right? Ya literally writes this in the mag, like, you know, you, you, the alarm bell's ringing.

Oh, the industry I loved is actually really shit. I need to purge all my associations with it, get rid of all my bad clothes and start again, start new. I need to shop the same, but from like, good brands and it is really easy to get to like lose the essence of sustainable fashion and, and get pressured by it.

But I really think that it's something that you do and not something that you buy. Buying is a very small, insignificant part of it, and I don't think it's completely where or. Our power lies. Um, especially the garment workers, you know, collaborate with the Clean Clothes campaign. They say, actually the best thing you can do is speak up and lend your support to our campaigns.

They, they really don't care how you are shopping or where you're shopping. They just wanna know, they can rely on you to support them. Um, so your wardrobe is okay, is you are okay as you are. You are so much more as a consumer. You are an individual human being. Um, and so don't [00:56:00] try not to get swept up in the tide.

Um, meet up with your local, so fashion group, find your people. Um, and small steps matter. So take one at a time.

p1: Oh yeah. Yeah. I echo like everything Mel just said. I think she put it really, really nicely. Um, I think there's this tendency, or I often hear a lot of binary thinking of. If I buy this or if I do this, then I'm sustainable. If I do X, Y, Z, then I'm not, and I think that is the trap of this industry. Like you can gain so much power, you can gain so much by remembering your power and also by giving yourself grace like there is so much power.

Remembering how you spend your money is who you're choosing to support. There is so much power in remembering that nothing is cheaper than not buying [00:57:00] anything. Just using whatever you already have, there is nothing that brings more peace and freedom into your life than not feeling the whole of consumption and working towards that feeling.

At the same time, give yourself grace because you are mentally up against. Millions, billions of pounds of marketing budgets. Mm-hmm. To keep you engaged, to hide the truth and influence your spending habits, et cetera, et cetera. I'll say this again, spend less time on digital spaces and fall into community.

Like I really think that is at the heart of it. 

lexy: Completely. Completely. Well, thank you both so, so, so much. This has been a great conversation. Um, and I, for anyone listening, where can they find you on social media or get involved? 

p2: So you can find the mag itself if you're based [00:58:00] in the uk we have physical copies, otherwise we've got a completely free digital version.

So if you go to, not. Buying it it.co uk you'll find our substack and our mag there. And we also have an Instagram account, not buying it mag. And then you can also find me in underscore malt on Instagram. Yeah. And 

p1: you can find me, uh, at ya kesh on Instagram. I, uh, write for a magazine. I co-write scripts and you can find all my writing through there.

lexy: Amazing. 

While you're at it, you can follow me on my socials. My Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube are all my name at Lexi Silverstein. That's LEY silver like the color, STIN. And remember to live a good life and look fucking good doing it.