38. Zappy Zapolin - The Future Of Psychedelic Integration

In this episode I sit down with Zappy Zapolin for a conversation on psychedelic integration, ayahuasca, ketamine, surrender, ego, and what happens when someone builds the career, makes the money, checks all the boxes, and still ends up feeling empty.

Zappy is one of the bigger names in this space, and honestly, we went into this one a little skeptical.

That didn’t last long.

We talk about his path from Wall Street and internet entrepreneurship into the psychedelic world, the spiritual crisis that pushed him inward, and the ayahuasca experience that changed how he sees control, identity, and life itself.

We also get into ketamine, mushrooms, present-moment awareness, and why insight by itself doesn’t mean much if you never actually integrate it. We talk about the future of psychedelic therapy, the rise in demand for real training, and why there are too many people right now trying to guide others with no business doing it.

What we cover:

•  Zappy Zapolin’s path from finance to psychedelics 
•  Ayahuasca, ketamine, and psychedelic integration 
•  Ego, surrender, and present-moment awareness 
•  Why success can still leave you empty 
•  The need for real training in psychedelic therapy and integration 
•  Psychedelic Concierge and the future of this space

👉 Zappy on Instagram

👉 The Psychedelic Concierge & Certification

👉 The Reality Of Truth Documentary

Thanks again for listening!

Enrollment is open right now for our Mindful Microdosing Program, which has helped 250+ veterans, first responders, and trauma survivors overcome anxiety, depression, and PTSD.

Visit https://www.becomingom.org/coaching for all the info and to get in touch with us.

Or DM us the word INTERESTED on Instagram.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

What's up guys? David here with the Plant Medicine for PTSD podcast. And this episode you're about to hear, I think, is really, really cool. I'm joined today by a dude named Zappy Zapelin, which is a unique name that you're not gonna forget. Um Zapi's an interesting dude. So he's somebody who like made a ridiculous amount of money in like the dot-com era, uh, as he he was like, you know, vice president at this investment bank thing. Uh so doing his you know corporate job, making a ton of money, and then has what he calls a spiritual midlife crisis, which I really loved. And all of that ultimately leads to him doing ayahuasca and being the person that he is. He ends up making a documentary about ayahuasca called The Reality of Truth. He goes on to become, um, I feel like he probably just invented this title, but it's a pretty cool one. He calls himself the psychedelic concierge, and you can go to psychedelicconcierge.com. If you have no idea how to spell that, just do your best and Google will figure it out. But it also might think that you're trying to spell conference, because that happened to me. But psychedelic concierge, and now he actually has this uh training program, the certification program to become a psychedelic guide, psychedelic sitter, psychedelic therapist. I actually don't know what term he would prefer I use. I probably should have Googled that first. Sorry, Zappy. But what's very cool about his program is that it actually is accredited. It like literally will give you CEUs or continuing education units, continuing education credits. I don't know. But you know, doctors and therapists and such, they have to keep up their licensure by taking these continuing education courses. And the fact that Zappi has created one that is actually accredited is really, really cool. Cordy and I have been kicking around the idea of training therapists how to do what we do because we get nonstop interest every day from therapists who maybe have taken some sort of certification program and they don't really know how to still work with people. They don't really know how to translate those skills into an actual business. They don't know how to really support people through the integration. You know, maybe they can design a safe uh ceremony space, but working with somebody for six months for psychedelic integration is a whole different ball of yarn. So I think what Zappy's doing is really, really cool. I think his heart is really in the right place, which I'll be honest, I definitely had some preconceived notions about him. Um, coming from this like investment banking background, working with celebrities and high-profile people. Usually that kind of stuff kind of rubs me the wrong way because there's a lot of ego that gets wrapped up in these like high profile individuals. Um, even his his look and his persona, it's clearly like curated, right? And so I really wasn't sure about him when we first met, but having now spoken to him for an hour and a half, uh, there's no doubt in my mind that his heart is in the right place. And I think he's doing great work in the world. And um, I really hope that he and I can continue to be friends and do some more podcasts and maybe work together in some capacity. Because I certainly think that he is doing what is needed in the world right now. And he's got some very interesting stuff coming down the pipeline with a new movie coming out all about frequency and how the future of healing lies in sound waves. Not even sound waves, perhaps, but like digital frequencies. Very interesting stuff, and uh, I'm really looking forward to seeing more about Zappy, to seeing that movie, and I'm looking forward to you listening to this episode. So I'll stop yapping. Go ahead and enjoy this one with me and my new friend Zappy, and I'll see you on the other side. What's going on with your shirt today, man? Were you painting before this?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Uh no, this is my psychedelic tripping wear, I call this. Oh yeah. Okay. And so this is just uh some tripping wear is like something that you would wear. My friend made this, it's like a really cool uh shirt, but it's basically uh super comfortable when you're tripping, and then when your friends look at you or you see yourself in the mirror, you're it it enhances your journey.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah, man. We got we got active wear, we got lounge wear, we got tripping wear. I like it. That's yes. We'll we'll stick, we'll stick with the topic of your look for a second. Talk to me about these glasses, dude. Because like this, I feel like this is your trademark vibe with the glasses and like the beard.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, yeah, no, it is. You know, I found these glasses several years ago. I had, you know, these glasses, and I just kept finding and acquiring them as I got went along the road. And I tell people that the real legit story on these glasses is that I what I love about them is they're very futuristic, but they're also sort of like, I don't know, uh Art Deco or something like that. So they cross over. And I say that I really wear these because when I put them on and then I look in the mirror, I don't take myself seriously. And I believe that to be the number one mistake that humans are making in this physical reality incarnation, is that they're taking this to something seriously that is not meant to be taken seriously.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Well, it's interesting that you say that because I'm kind of asking about this, because you know, like I'm I'm doing some research before the episode, and so you Google your name, which is a unique thing by itself, and I want to ask where Zappy came from, but like it it almost and I say this with so much love, it's almost like a character, or like like you like you are a character, like oh, that's Zappy. That's the con that's the psychedelic concierge. He's got those weird glasses that look super cool. So I I I don't know. I wanted to ask you about this because it almost seems like um how can I put this? Not that there's ego involved, but like the whole reality of truth. You talk about the ego, and psychedelics people talk about killing your ego and subjugating your ego, and here you are almost cultivating this persona and this appearance in a certain way. I don't, I'm not doing a good podcast host job because there's no question there. These are just ramblings from a sleep-deprived parent, but I'm totally with you.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I mean, you know, for me, I worked on Wall Street when I got out of school, and there you gotta wear a tie and jacket and all this stuff. And the day I left Wall Street, I like ripped that tie off, and I'm like, I'm never wearing one of those again. I don't care if it's like the president's like dinner, I'm not doing it. I'll just not go. I'll just wear a blazer and yeah, and so um, you know, as I started to have my own deeper and deeper experiences with psychedelics and peeling back the onion, and I realized, you know, the the whole secret of life, like that song says, James Taylor, it's just enjoying the passage of time, being in the present moment. And if you can, you know, be in when you're in the present moment, if you can, you know, not take things too seriously, know that you don't have a lot of control over what's happening. And that's you know, I can go into that a little bit, but in my ayahuasca experience when I met God, that was like what God said to me, and this is like 2011, something like that. And God said, like basically during my ayahuasca, said, you know, do you know how you're breathing right now? Do you know how you're digesting your food, how you're growing your hair? Like, do you know how you're doing that? You're doing it, but do you know how? And I was like, no, I don't, I don't even know how I'm breathing right now. And then God literally said to me, then what makes you think I need your help? And I was like, oh, wow, you're right. Like, if how am I gonna get so upset because these people aren't listening to me over here when I don't even know how I'm breathing right now? And if I don't do that for two minutes, I die. And God just said, just enjoy it, it's perfect. And I came back and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna enjoy it because I'm finding myself to be in a miracle, and I think that's the power of psychedelics is that they bring you back to the fact that you're living in a miracle where you know the sun is 93 million miles away, so we can have an atmosphere, and I'm talking on the phone in real time to China and all this stuff. And it's so miraculous, but the illusion is so good that you get jaded and you forget, and the illuminate the Maya illusion is great and you forget. And then you do psychedelics, brings you back to, hey, you know what? I'm not in charge of this whole thing going on. I don't even know what I'm doing here. I'm just gonna be in gratitude and I'm not gonna take it seriously. And these glasses and this shirt that you and I talked about, this is called tripping wear. And it's a new category of clothing because tripping wear is all about, you know, being comfortable, the reality that you're gonna go inside your mind potentially at any point because it's available to you in the right set and setting. And then if you're wearing something that's cool that you can look at and trip a little better on, or your friends can look at you and be like, wow, your shirts and me, that that's my definition of a tripping wear, but also B, don't take it seriously because you're in a miracle. You don't know why you're here, you don't know what comes next. But if you can remain grateful to be here in this unknown circumstance, I really think that might be how you're judged by God, not on your good deeds, because we all do those for different reasons.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Well, dude, uh, podcast over. Great conversation. Just said everything that's worth saying.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

There's uh I interviewed another gentleman named Chachi, and he was like, Yeah, I just try to control the controllables and let go of the let goables. I was like, wow, no one ever has to say any more words. That's it. Mics drop. Yeah. I I was laughing before just the way that you said it, just how nonchalant, like, oh, I'm finding myself to be experiencing a miracle right now. Let me just, you know, enjoy that for a minute. Um, you said that that God told you, like, hey, why do you think I need your help? Uh, what what were you trying to help with in terms of just controlling things and forcing outcomes and things like that?

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, for I'd say forcing outcomes or, you know, trying to get people to do this or that because I believe that that was better for them and I have to get this message out, you know, and all that. And in that moment, I realized that uh, you know, I realized that I was in a miracle, but fast forward now, a few years later, I was out, you know, showing my reality of truth movie all around the country. And somebody came up to me after one of the screenings and they're like, hey, I'm friends with Lamar Odom, the basketball player, Kardashian. He's not in a good place. Would you be okay to talk to him about plant medicine? And I was like, wow, that's amazing. You know, I love it. And I started to work with him. And as I started to work with him, some of the things that were happening as I surrendered the outcome, I actually things were happening, but they were happening more miraculously than I had envisioned what was going to happen. And I was like, oh my God, like I think I'm holding myself back because my vision is so limited by linear time and space and what I think can happen in a certain amount of time. And here's the universe showing me that this is so interconnected and so dynamic that it doesn't have to be linear. It can go from zero to a hundred in a second and another miracle that leads to this crazy miracle situation. And so I, in that moment during the pandemic, making that movie, I said, I'm gonna step out of my own way because I know now that my imagination is limited, and I'm now the only thing getting in the way of progress.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

How do you see like what you are doing right now then? Like what role do you play? Like, what is it that you actually do if you're talking about getting out of your own way?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, so you know, I I feel like in my I've had to come to a place where I say to myself, you know, I want to be whatever value I can be to the awareness of psychedelic medicine and plants coming out into society. It doesn't have to be my idea, though. It doesn't have to go any way you want. Some guy shows up tomorrow and he's got a really dynamic thing to add, like by all means, like Brian Johnson, for example, the biohacker, live forever. He recently did five MeO DMT on a live stream, and he had done two five gram mushroom journeys on a live stream before that. And my phone is blowing up from biohackers because he came out of that and said, I've that was one, that was the most single important experience in my life, and all my biomarkers are better than they've ever been. And he goes, I'm looking at it now, and I realize that sleep affects it a little bit, and diet affects it a little bit, and all these things, but the psychedelic medicine increases it by some factor beyond all those other things. He's like, So this is an incredible moment for me to realize this is all about longevity. And so for me, it's like when I see somebody like that stepping forward and affecting all those people, I'm like, I'm just a hog in the wheel of the word coming out. And I always, you know, kind of hit my pillow at night going, hey, you know what? If one person gets access to these medicines one day earlier because we made all this noise and we insisted that people, you know, look at the science, then it was we won. You know, I don't have to get a trophy and I don't have to have some position within there because we all appeal to different people. You appeal to a certain, you know, person and you know, you might be very valuable if they're going through a certain thing, if a veteran might be more effective than you with other people, a mom with kids might be for something. So we each have our person or our people to try to share this with. And I think, you know, I've been ranting about this for if you ask my friends, 35 years. I've been ranting about psychedelics, you know, and mushrooms and how everybody's got to do them. And so then as the science kind of caught up and people post-pandemic were like, okay, shit, we can't go back to talk therapy and antidepressants. Like, what do we got? Um, that this is showing itself to be the most important element of mental health and addiction treatment and stuff coming up. And so I think we're just kind of in that moment where we just have to each play our role and be as transparent as we can and try to use our knowledge to support people. And I'll lastly say that for 35 years and even the last 10, as I was out there, you know, really ranting about psychedelics and the science that was had been done or was being done, um, people weren't still weren't ready for it until very, very recently with AI coming on board and World War III possibly happening, all this stuff. And now they're literally calling me. You know what I mean? It's like they're like, and my message is like, hey, Zappy, it's so-and-so. Uh, I know I've fought you on this thing for a long time, but uh, I'm ready. Okay, I'm not gonna fight you anymore. And uh, you know, those kind of phone calls are really rewarding, but not for my ego necessarily, but like, wow, like do you this is this can't be stopped ever now? Yeah, that's gonna change everything.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

This is it is the future, that's undeniable. Um, so I thought that your start with this stuff was the ayahuasca journey, but you said you've been into psychedelics for like 30 plus years. So yeah, talk to me. What was like because I I've I want to rewind and hear about your like corporate career as well. But what what was the introduction to psychedelics for you? What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So the introduction was when it when I was a teenager, I hung around with some older kids. I worked at this restaurant, and the old they were just like cooks and you know, bus people, and they were just older kids, and I was exposed to that in my teens. And I had my an awakening psychedelic experience when I was a little teen, where that changed everything from my life in one way, which was that, you know, in this psychedelic experience, I looked at my hand and it was like trillions of atoms, and they were vibrating at this certain frequency. I was, and I was like, oh wow. And then I looked at my friend and he was the same atoms, but he was like a slightly different frequency than me. And I looked at the table, it was like this really intense, you know, one. And I was like, oh my God, everything's frequency. The air in between us was alive. And I thought, I can never unsee this. Obviously, my five senses are limiting what I'm actually seeing, and there's a lot more going on. And then fast forward um all the way to 2011, where I had this kind of spiritual midlife crisis where I did everything that society told me to do to be totally fulfilled. You know, go to school, make money, have a family, be a philanthropist, you'll be totally fulfilled. And I did it. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh my God, like I'm not fulfilled. I'm having some nice experience, but I don't even know what I'm doing here. I don't even know if life is worth living, uh, if this is all it is. So um I decided, you know, thought back to that time when I was younger and thought, well, maybe I got to go back inside of myself for some answers. I it's obviously not out there. So let me go back. And I had heard at the time about people doing ayahuasca with shamans in the jungle. And I thought, you know, that could very well be a path that I need to take. And I convinced myself to do it. I was ready. And even though when I got ready, I wanted to have a really traditional experience with a shaman. And I kept getting invited. I was in Los Angeles area, and I'd get invited to these full moon ayahuasca ceremonies in Topanga. And I was just like, I would make up an excuse all the time and be like, oh my God, I hurt my arm, you know, or something like that. Because I just didn't want to do it in that way yet. And so I wound up um having the opportunity to go down to Peru and do it with some folks that own a bunch of lodges down there who are gonna chaperone the group. And uh through my uh cinematographer at the time, uh, he knew Michelle Rodriguez, the actress from Fast and Furious. And she had expressed interest in him in coming with us and went over to her house in Venice back then and gave her the rap on what we were doing, where we were going. And she was like, I'm in, you know, and I was like, Oh, wow, shit. Okay. Uh, and then I was leaving her house. This is how organic life is, but I'm leaving her house and she goes back into her bedroom, comes back, and hands me her passport and goes, Okay, like I'm in. Here's my passport, take it, you know. And I was like, holy shit, like this is on, you know. And so we went down to Peru. We had wound up staying there for close to two weeks. We had a um San Pedro, which is a cactus ceremony at the top of a mountain at 15,000 feet. That was life-changing for a bunch of us, including Michelle. And then a couple of days later, we hiked down into the jungle and did ayahuasca with a shaman in the jungle. And then in the movie The Reality of Truth, I just followed her and I in our lives. And, you know, we wound up doing some other psychedelic journeys together uh after that. Uh, and I just sort of tried to, you know, let people be a fly on the wall in our experience and see how we were integrating it.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

I'm imagining the uh the actual experience of like having a film crew as I'm trying to go do psychedelics, but also appreciating that's very different for someone who comes from the film industry where that's just another day in the life for her. I guess. Yeah. That would be so weird for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

No, it is funny because I always I say to her and I say to Lamar Odom, who are the sort of protagonists' leads in my two movies, that I'm like, wow, you guys are so brave. I'm going, I like, I would never let anybody film my first psychedelic experience. But you know, for Michelle, it wasn't her first, but even that ayahuasca. But, you know, we we had a high conscious crew, and we told everybody, you know, we're not gonna like be in your face, you know, we're not gonna shoot the inside of the ceremony and you what you're going through. You might hear noises, you might, you know, you see us drink the medicine and come back, but we're not gonna do that. There's too much energy that you feel in the room that if somebody's walking around with a camera, it's like it's gonna affect your experience.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

So it can be hard enough to be like fully tripping and be around somebody who's sober who doesn't fully understand, like you can feel so judged just from that. So then you had to have a camera in your face, not what you need. Um, so this I love the the term that you used that you had a spiritual midlife crisis when you realized I did all the things society told me to do, and I kind of hate my life, and there's no meaning here. Was there any catalyst for that specifically that you can put your finger on? Was it just a sort of general accumulation? Over time, or was there a come to Jesus moment where you realized your life wasn't what you thought it would be?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Um, oh, that's a good question. I mean, uh there wasn't a one moment, but there were a few things that happened in business. And I'll just describe my trajectory there where you know I grew up in Boston and I always liked finance, you know, financial Wall Street and live in New York. That was like a lot of people's dream. And so when I got to do that, I moved to New York. I had this experience, incredible experience of working on Wall Street and achieving, you know, enough to be a vice president in a major investment bank and to do all that stuff. And what happened was I wanted to be more entrepreneurial. And so I didn't find myself to be able to be entrepreneurial enough on Wall Street. I was busy telling people about the stocks that we as a company owned. And I really like like some other ones, but I was limited by what I could do. And so I decided to leave there. And uh I, you know, have a some kind of a gift of being able to kind of um extrapolate out what the future kind of looks like based on where people are at in that time. And I saw that the infomercial industry was burgeoning. You could make your own TV show and buy airtime in the late 80s, early 90s. And so I wound up with a friend leaving the brokerage industry and we made uh some television shows that were like corporate profiles about our clients who were like Genzyme and Dunkin' Donuts and pretty cool companies. And so we started doing that. I wound up getting on the Today show with Katie Kirk to talk about infomercials because it was pretty early in the trajectory. And at the end of the segment, uh, she didn't really like infomercials at all. She was kind of trying to beat us up. And mine was a non-traditional one, so she couldn't really get me. And so at the end of the segment, she said, All right, well, thanks for being here. And I said, Oh, by the way, Katie, if anybody wants to get in touch with us, our phone number is 1-800. And she was like, Oh my God, it's like an infomercial here. And then they cut the camera and she like lit into me. She's like, You'll never be back on this show. You turn this into an infomercial. I was like, I don't know what to tell you, you know? And uh, but meanwhile, back at my office, like hundreds of phone calls were coming in. And then every time zone that the show would air, hundreds more calls. And from that, I called a whole business of, you know, Diana Ross, the uh the artist, wanted to sell some of her stuff direct. Um, time Warner was doing new infomercial type things to promote pay-per-view inside of their uh boxes and stuff. So it turned into like kind of a traditional career. And then when I saw the internet coming in the late 90s, I was like, oh wow, that is like uh the marketing person's dream. You can track where people go and where they come from and all that. So I went into it and thought, where do I get, how do I enter this space? And I came up with the concept that if I owned a category generic domain name like beer.com, diamond.com, computer.com, I would have credibility. And as more people came onto the internet, I would rise with the tide. And so famously I bought beer.com back in 1998 and I redeveloped it a little bit as a beer portal. And two months after I had bought it for$80,000, I sold it to this interview, a beer company up in Canada for$7 million. So I was like, ooh, this is like a pretty good business model. And I went back and I bought Diamond.com and did a deal with that and computer uh credit cards.com and computer.com and these things, and wound up having a Super Bowl ad and the 2000 Super Bowl for the computer.com. And I'm leading what the story is leading to is that in after the internet bubble burst, I went back and acquired computer.com with a few partners. We developed that thing over the course of a couple of years. And when it was time, uh, my partners who didn't have some of the exits that I had earlier, they wanted to sell uh credit cards.com and um for a few million dollars and diversify into a bunch of domain names. And I wasn't able to, you know, uh stand up against that. I didn't have a majority, so we wound up selling it. And two years to the month that we sold it for 3 million and change, that same person sold the business, no different, the whole thing for 133 million. And so I was to your point, like, what was the tipping point where I was sitting there going universe? Like, why would you keep me from, you know, 40 million dollars? I feel like I could have done of my share. Like, I feel like I could have really done some cool stuff and I would have, you know, shared all this, but um, I just had like a chip on my shoulder where I was really agitated, like when I'd have to see commercials on CNBC for my brand, you know? And so I tried to let that go. Anyways, I wind up doing plant medicine. I came back from all that and I was telling everybody, oh my God, you have to do plant medicine. It's amazing. And um, my friends that really needed it, maybe they had an addiction or they were really in trouble, they were saying to me, Oh, Zappy, I cannot do this. Like if I tell my family I'm gonna go sit with a shaman in the jungle, like they're gonna baker act me. It's not, it's not gonna be good. Um, I can't do it. And so I was like, Oh, I need a Western medicine approach for people that they can get in here and have this experience and start out. And somebody told me about the research on ketamine in 2015. And I was like, wow, that could be interesting. I convinced a doctor in Florida to give me the Yale protocol of the IV ketamine. And as soon as it hit me five minutes in, I was like, oh, this is it. Okay, I'm gonna have to dedicate my life right now to this because it's FDA approved. You go super deep, you don't have to diet before, you don't have to do the same amount of integration. This is where people are gonna start. And so I dove into that and opened a clinic with a doctor in 2015 and just went after that uh awareness, just creating awareness for the real science from Yale that said it was 72% effective against treatment-resistant depression that nothing else works for. And so in that moment, I was even able to clear my PTSD over this credit cards.com situation that happened to me, where I felt this, you know, agitation, unrest within me. Uh, and in that ketamine experience, it showed me what my life would have been like if I had taken the money and yeah, and been sitting on the back of a boat smoking a cigar, not really providing much value to society. And then it showed me here's the reality of truth. And you know, 20 million people have seen it, and a million people have had a psychedelic experience because of this movie. Like, which which one would you have chosen if you had this? And I was like, shit.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

It's like like the movie It's a Wonderful Life, right? Where the angel like shows them what would have happened.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah, that's that's uh I'll tell you a crazy story. One of the uh I have a couple of I have a bunch of people that I do the ketamine group sessions around the country with. I've got one coming up at Harvard on April 23rd for a group of about 20 Harvard students, all the different uh from all the different psychedelic clubs and societies at Harvard. It's gonna be amazing. But one of the girls that I do it with, um a few months back, she was new to the ketamine. Um, and so she went in there and we did our little group, and she went in and in her first experience, she's a realtor in uh Delray Beach, Florida. And in that first session, she said she saw herself in a boardroom talking to a group of investors, and she's like, and the ketamine downloaded the exact speech that I'm to give these investors, and then she told us what the speech was, and we were like, Oh my god, that's amazing! You know, two days later, she says the speech to them, and they give her a$10 million listing in Del Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Let's go. Yeah, what what percentage does the ketamine get?

SPEAKER_00 30:27

She's giving it almost all the credit. Yeah, uh, and then a couple weeks later, she wound up. We did another session for a different group. She wound up going in there and just said, you know, oh, by the way, ketamine, um, what should I say to get that three million dollar listing on the beach? And it like kind of like broke down how hers was she's about sustainability and stewarding properties to the right people. So she was gonna do that for the people who had these houses that were like in their family, got the three million dollar listing. And it's like, so in regular, you know, three-dimensional reality, um, it seems like you have to do everything linear, but what you realize in this miracle machine with the things like these compounds that can take the filters off that really you're working with something much more dynamic.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

I I agree entirely. And just on the ketamine topic, this shirt is from a company called Mental Joe Apparel. And my friend Chad is a veteran, also, and he was um in a ketamine session, and the medicine straight up told him to start an apparel company. And he was like, Okay. And he's an awesome story.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

He's he's doing great stuff, and it's such a cool story, too, because he and his wife have just been in like drowning in credit card debt, getting this company off the ground, and he's just trusted the process. And I don't know if I'm at liberty to actually say too much about this, but things are changing for him right now. So it's very exciting that like he trusted the medicine to like great personal discomfort and uh is now having a huge effect. So I always wear his shirts when I do podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

That's awesome. I would I'll tell you, I'll tell you another story, non-ketamine, but mushroom, good friend of mine down here in Florida. Uh, we worked together on some projects, and after we did, he went into a business where it was like a five-year entrepreneurial venture that didn't really work out, and he was really bummed out, and his marriage fell apart and wasn't earning money and all that stuff. And so, in a in a moment of kind of despair, he was he wound up at our friend's uh Halloween party, and uh he on the on the table, our mutual friend had a giant bowl of mushrooms, and my friend was like, Oh, you know what? Like, life sucks, I don't care, anyways. And he's like, grabbed a big bunch of mushrooms, threw them in his mouth. I don't recommend more, took some more, and he said he had this like transformative experience over the next 24 hours. And he's like, and then it became so clear to him exactly what he needed to do in his business. And two days later, he launched his company, and he's now, you know, quite literally making a million dollars a month. And uh he's like, I wouldn't have done it in that time. I couldn't see how I was supposed to go and where the value was until I separated from my ego of, oh, I have to stick with this because of this and that and that. No, just go to where you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

You know, with what we're talking here, like some people might call this like the quantum field or what have you, where you're saying this, you know, three-dimensional time and space as we normally operate within those boundaries don't really exist in the way that we tend to think they do. Do you have any sort of like framework for understanding this? Any sort of like I don't know, system behind it, if you will. Like a lot of different people have. They they try to apply some religious views to the psychedelic space. Um, I'm not sure if you're familiar. I'm a big fan of the Bhagavad Gita. I think that that actually explains quite a bit of what we experience. Got my copyright here. But um I'm just wondering if you have anything that you personally subscribe to on that front.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

I do. I believe that, you know, for whatever reason, we we wanted to manifest ourselves into this physical reality, into this field of plasma. And for some reason we wanted to. Uh, it seems like we took an amnesia pill uh to be here because I think if you if you knew what came next and you knew it was gonna happen, it wouldn't be worth doing. It would be boring. You wouldn't even do it. So you have to have that amnesia, but at the same time, you are operating with your five senses. And as we now know, your five senses can be tricked pretty easily. And they're only sharing a small amount of the actual information that's in the field. And so what I my theory is that we as humans, you know, we're always we have these scanning mechanisms, they're always scanning for danger, danger. Somebody comes over here, we're like, oh yeah, nope, they're kind of like me. Okay, up danger, danger. And then when you take a plant medicine, let's say marijuana for a second, that all of a sudden like 10 filters come off. And you like look around, you're like, oh my God, the music sounds so good. And the lights and wow, this is amazing, you know. So that's that. Mushrooms, thousand filters off. Now you're like, oh wow, there is so much dynamic stuff going on. And then maybe ibogaine or ketamine, you know, all filters off. You're sitting in the present moment. And for me, getting to present moment awareness through plant medicine, through psychedelic medicine, meditation, breathing, these things, it the whole point of life is to get yourself into this present moment awareness reality where time slows down and you get to be more in the flow of nature. And so I think, like as a human, I really appreciate opportunities to transcend my human filters. Because for me, that's what's really happening here. And, you know, obviously, whether you believe in religion or not, we are in some kind of an absolute miracle. It can't, I mean, it can't be that like a couple of carbon atoms bumped into an oxygen, a hydrogen, and blah, blah, blah. And now you have a human eye, and we can like take a rocket to Mars, and we have it's just it's just not sensible.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

I dude, I you're speaking my language, man. There's a comedian Pete Holmes who has a new special out right now, kind of talking about this. He's like, which is less realistic? That there's a god or that nothing just created all of this in the Big Bang. Like, get the fuck out of here with that.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Um, have you ever heard of a book called The Legend of Bagger Vance by Steven Pressfield?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Uh, is that the golf movie?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

It is the golf movie. So it's uh I I don't know if you know this, it's literally a retelling of the Bhagavad Gita applied to golf, which if you don't know that, is just a really fucking weird movie about golf. But if you do know that, you can see all of the same principles applied. But I just bring this up because it talks about the field and the knower of the field, and I think it's exactly to me what you're describing with removing the filters and you just see all of the potentials and you can almost select the one that you want instead of bumbling our way through this life wearing our normal human meat suit that we typically do. So uh I'm really curious, Zappy. Um because it it almost sounds like you applied your infomercial brain to evangelizing for psychedelics because you saw how much this can help people. Um were there threads of that, or like could could you see the seeds of that in your childhood? Or like as you look back now on your like investment banking career? Can how did we get here? It seems like such a left turn.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

I it's so funny. I tell people that I really believe that my origin story is I was born October 3rd, 1966. And on October 4th, 1966 is the day that LSD became illegal in California and caused all of the psychedelics to then be prohibited from there. And so I I say to people, half joking, that I only had one day of true freedom on this earth here in this life. And I believe I might have been put here to write to help right that wrong, uh, because I think this prohibition will be looked back at as like the biggest detriment to society that's ever happened. Um, and so, you know, for me, uh I'm you know anchored in uh, you know, as I look back, I think I didn't have all the data back then that we have now, where you know, a lot of things have come, you know, been brought out into the light. And you can see that there was sort of a perfect storm that took place in the late 50s, early 60s, where um, you know, of course, Vietnam broke out, and the government, after doing testing with psychedelics, realized that people were not going to go kill people if they had psychedelics. So they were like, we got to stomp this out. You had the uh medical establishment that had just brought out their SSRI antidepressants and had big plans for those to be a multi-billion dollar, trillion dollar industry, and they didn't need people getting cleaned up by some plant that they couldn't patent. So they were very heavily against it. And then third, and I say probably most sinister, is the alcohol companies who knew that a day like today was gonna come in 2026 where people were gonna prefer uh cannabis and mushrooms over alcohol and that the younger generation was not gonna be a drinking it, kind of like the cigarette companies had to go find other audiences. They were like, well, let's put that off as long as possible. We'll just spend tens of millions of dollars a year telling people that psychedelics are dangerous, you're gonna jump out of building, your brain's gonna rot. And they did such a good job and they sustained it for so long that I'm I don't even when I hear people go, oh, I can't do that, blah, blah, blah. That I go, it's not their fault. They have been expertly propagandized to be afraid. And so it's I'm more relying on this younger generation, and now you've got all these moms in the Midwest, like moms for microdosing, that are taking the microdose, having a great experience, and then turning on their neighbor, their PTA group. And it's like ripping through the country, even without us trying to push these agendas. It's already happening because there's no other solution. It's like you can't go back to talk therapy and antidepressants. So what do we have? Well, we got some overwhelming data that there's medical benefit right here.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Well yeah, you talk about God not needing your help, like the the mushrooms are gonna figure it out, right? We're just aiding things along a little bit. Uh if that somehow answered my question, I missed it, dude. So, how do we get from being like a kid dreaming about working on Wall Street to doing this? And I I mean this to say, like, I'll talk about my life for a second. So I'm a doctor of physical therapy by training and then left that, and now I do the psychedelic integration, which is sort of like physical therapy for your soul. Like being a surgeon would almost be like being the shaman administering the ayahuasca, but then they come see me for six months afterwards. So it's almost like the same thing was there, just applied to a different way. Yeah. Do you see any of that in your life with what you were trying to do in the investment banking world to what you're doing now?

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Yeah, I I think so. I mean, I was always, you know, trying to find cool things and then share them with people. And now I, you know, because of my being around cameras and things so much over my career, um, when times have come where I could film something, um, I did that. You know, it wasn't like an organic, like, I'm gonna make a documentary film. It was very, very organic. It was just like, let me shoot this because maybe I can share some of it. I don't know how or when or what. But so as I uh, you know, had this realization that uh, you know, in my own life that the people around me really needed these compounds. They needed my confidence to get them to be okay to do it. Um, that I was like, that's a really that'd be a great pursuit for me. You know, if I can just, you know, I'm gonna wake up and do my thing anyways. Why don't I do my thing in a way that can really uh move the meter on people? And uh I joke around and I say the only two things that I've ever seen that work as advertised are psychedelic medicine and visine. Everything else is bullshit, you know, uh vitamins. But and I'm joking.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

I'm so worried you were gonna say Viagra.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

No, I probably I don't know if that works as as uh said, but for sure we have something very, very special. And like you said, why would God have put these things here on earth and given you receptors in your brain if you weren't supposed to have them? That wouldn't make any sense. And so I'm telling people hey, if you go through your whole life and you don't experience this thing of turning your brain on or shutting off some of your filters and these things, you might have wasted your entire life. And I wouldn't want to die and be sitting in front of God and I'm saying, okay, God, uh, God's like, why are you here? And I'm like, well, because I died of this disease or whatever. And God's like, Well, why didn't you take some of those natural things that I put there to heal you and tap you back into spirituality? And if my answer is, well, because this guy in a white coat told me not to, God's gonna be like, guess what? You didn't, you're not thinking for yourself, you're about to go back for another hundred lifetimes. Congratulations, you know. And I don't want to have that. And so I believe that um nature is very intelligent and it knows that people are becoming deeply, deeply stressed, and we have all kinds of ways to annihilate each other. And so it's bringing these things out. And the ayahuasca told me in no uncertain terms when I was in uh Peru, and you know, be it God or Pachamama, Mother Nature, that I sat there and I spoke with, said, I need to come out in the United States, in Los Angeles, in New York. It's people can't just all come down here for two weeks to Peru and have a vacation like you. So you're gonna have to tell the story that makes people know that it's okay to do this, you know, meet them where they are. And so anytime somebody, you know, gets on a stump and starts telling me, like, who do you think you are to use these indigenous medicines? And I'm like, God literally told me, the spirit of ayahuasca told me it needs to come out and I should do whatever I need to do to do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

So yeah, and I mean, even a lot of the indigenous folks, obviously I won't speak for all of them, but our maestros, uh, Shipibo healers who've lived in Pucallpa, Peru their whole life, they're excited that there's more and more opportunity, and they know that not everybody has access to it. So they're happy that at least again, these two people that I know are happy that there is more and more access because the world needs it. And even even if you ask them 100 years ago, nobody like in their communities, right? Nobody was public about using ayahuasca as like almost a closely guarded family secret. And if somebody came for healing, the shaman would drink the ayahuasca, not the person receiving the healing.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

And they've explained to me how that has shifted over time because people need it more and they need the access to it. So again, n equals two of like my two maestros explaining this to me, but uh I'm with you on that front, man.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Um hey, how does Ramdas factor into this? I I was taking a peek through the uh the reality of truth, and a big smile cracked out on my face when I saw Ramdas come up. What was your experience with him?

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Yeah, uh, it was an awesome experience. A friend of mine, their family was close to Ramdas, and uh I got invited to come and meet him in Hawaii and film with him, and I was like, I love Ramdas. My my mom's maiden name is Alpert, same as Richard Alpert Ramdas, and they're both from Bangor, Maine. Uh, their families came through Bangor, Maine. There's a book called The Alperts and Coens of Bangor, Maine. And so I know somewhere in my lineage it crosses there with the Alperts. Um, but I just always like thought Ramdas was like such a cool guy, and I loved having my Be Here Now book that I could flip the, you know, open up a page and get some kind of inspiration or enlightenment, you know, throughout my life. And I always respected what him and Timothy Leary did at Harvard and then going to India. He was on like a kind of a journey that I wanted to be on in my life. And so when I got the chance to meet him and spend a day with him, uh, it was amazing. And he, as you see in the reality of truth, it's like my favorite part in that movie where I'm like, I gotta hear from Ram Das that I should do this. And then I go, Ram Das, should I do it? And he goes, and he actually says, like, he goes, Yes, yes, yes, like that. And then I go, okay, so a seeker should find a shaman and do it. And he goes, sure, sure, sure. And I was like, oh shit, like if I just got to go from Ram Das, like nothing can stop me right now. Um, on this. And so it was it was beautiful to, you know, be in his presence and um, you know, just see somebody that had had a stroke and all these different experiences, but he was like big smile on his face, and he was like so engaged and you know, so much fun to be around. So it was really one of the crowning moments of that movie for me personally, was sitting with Ram Das. And then, you know, we've got some great cool people in that movie from Marianne Williamson and uh Joel Osteen, the preacher, and um very young uh Aubrey Marcus. Young Aubrey Marcus that was incredible. Um, there's a there's a Joe Rogan story tied into the shooting of that um of the Aubrey Marcus, where uh I was you know hoping, you know, I went to lunch with Aubrey and and uh and Joe Rogan, and I we left the cameras all set up in the hotel room, like so confident we were getting Joe. And we went down there, we had lunch, and I told him about the movie. And he personally did not like uh Deepak Chopra, who was a component of the movie, and told me, you know, he wasn't gonna be in the movie for that reason. And I tried to, you know, go at him like, hey, this is about plant medicine, it's not about any one person, you know. But he was like, not doing it, you know, you can take your pick, you know. And I was so I was, you know, disappointed, but at the same time, you know, every time Aubrey uh people watch that movie and they see Aubrey and his uh just his confidence that you should do this and it will be positive no matter what, uh, even if you don't get the answer that you want to get. Um, you know, people a lot of times they get really moved by him and then Michelle Rodriguez, and then you know, at the end of the movie, the movie cuts to black, and people like, you know what? I think I'm doing ayahuasca. Uh, and so that was the goal of that movie was to get people confident enough to go do it because we did it.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

With what you just shared about Aubrey being like, no matter what, you should go do this, it's gonna be positive. Do you do you believe that, or do you have some hesitations or reservations about making a statement like that?

SPEAKER_00 50:48

I think pre-pandemic, I would have said, I don't think everybody needs this. It's not really for everybody, but like if you've gone through that pandemic, you have PTSD. If you're living in this world where Putin might blow us up and the air is poison and this and that, I mean, like, if you don't have some PTSD, you're probably a sociopath or a psychopath, you know. So we all have some stuff that we could release from uh all this technology and information and stuff that's overloading us. And so I believe now if you're in the right set and setting that this would be of benefit to absolutely everyone of every age.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Okay, sure. That can be a big if for a lot of people, the the right mindset, the right setting. But yeah, I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, but that's you know, and that's why I launched this uh psychedelic concierge training program, because I was like, you know what? We need so many guides. There's about to be millions of people who take psychedelic medicine that are gonna need guiding and preparation, guiding, and integration. And they just don't exist because uh maps, the organization that was working on getting uh MDMA legal, uh, they predicted that if they got approval, they were gonna need 30,000 guides just for uh MDMA. So you extrapolate that against all the meds. We need like a million guides, half a million guides in this country because you've got 39 million people who've said they're psychedelic curious, and 70% of those people said they would like to be guided, ideally. And so I'm like, wow, we better get going on training people who are have the right integrity, they have the knowledge, they understand how to hold space, how to integrate people. Like, we better get training them because it's just it's gonna be an absolute um, you know, it's gonna be bedlam when all these people do it. And I've been saying it's even more compelling right now because uh you probably saw that the DEA asked Health and Human Services uh if they to make a recommendation on rescheduling psilocybin off of schedule one. And as soon as they do that, which I believe they're gonna do any day now, because marijuana is being rescheduled to schedule three, and now they're just admitting that psilocybin has medical benefits, so it shouldn't be on schedule one, which means no medical benefit. So when they reschedule that, because psilocybin mushrooms have had a phase one clinical trial already, they are gonna be available to people under the Right to Try Act, which is what Trump put in place in his first term for cancer drugs and things. And it said, if something went through a phase one clinical trial, even if there's no other data, you have the right to try it if you think it could save your life. And that's your right. And so because psilocybin has had that, I'm predicting that possibly another 10 or 20 million people do mushrooms in the next 18 months or so. And your phone's gonna blow up like holy shit, I just did a five gram trip. And I'm like, I need somebody to help me to integrate this now. And your phone's just gonna be like ding ding ding ding. Um, which is gonna be a good thing because at the end of the day, as I said, you have receptors for this in your brain. People have been doing this for millions of years as they foraged on the ground and found mushrooms and places and interact with with yeah, we we evolved alongside it.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

There's no doubt about that. Um, and maybe when we're off air, I can talk to you about business ideas of scale. Because right now, man, I only have so much bandwidth and too many people need help. Um and so to that point, your current, I don't want to call it a venture, but your current mission really is this training program. So how how is this born? Uh, first of all, because you don't have, you know, the background as a you're not a clinician, whatever, you just you're psychonaut. So yeah, uh what's the what's the origin story of this and what what exactly is it? So I can stop referring to it as your program. Like what is it exactly?

SPEAKER_00 54:57

Okay. So it is the first and only CPD accredited psychedelic training program. And CPD stands for continuing professional development and in medical and therapy, you have to maintain, you have to take a certain number of courses each year to maintain your license and get these continuing education units. And so you can get those units from being in the psychedelic concierge course. And the reason for it is that we follow the very strict standards where you have to um, you know, pass each test with at least 80% proficiency before you move to the next module, of which there's 125 modules in the course. Um, you have to uh have a certain number, ours is like 20 practicum hours of real-world experience in the field. And then you have to do a capstone project, which basically shows us what you're gonna, where you're gonna take your knowledge and what it is that you're planning to do with with that in your career. And so we fit into that because, you know, my experience is that uh for the last, you know, maybe um dozen years, I've been very actively sitting with people on all kinds of different psychedelics at different doses. I've sat with hundreds of ketamine people, I've done integration groups and things like that. And so as I came together with a few other practitioners, my um my um, you know, the program manager, woman named Lois, my partner Sean, and psychedelic concierge. We we thought to ourselves, okay, let's take our combined knowledge here of all what you have to do and put it together into a course. And now, you know, it would take you probably, you know, 12 weeks or so. You could get through the program if you were really moving fast, and then you got to do your practicing. So it's gonna take you six months of real training. And the other programs I've seen out there, some are eight hours, some are one weekend. It is so concerning. It's like crazy, you know. You're talking about trauma-informed guiding and groups versus one person. It's like you've got to be trained. This knowledge exists, it's amazing, and you can know it and and really help people if you know how to guide them and prep them and integrate them. And so I did this kind of selfishly because I was like, oh my God, I'm already overwhelmed with these inbound leads that are coming to me of people saying, Hey, can you guide me? What do you recommend? And I was like, I need to have people all over the country where I could say, Oh, you're in California, you need somebody that does MDMA for couples. No problem, got them. Okay, oh, you're in um, you know, Miami and you're trying to find a microdose person. Ah, no problem, gotcha. It wouldn't fall on me that I would trust these people who are fully trained. And once you really get trained, you realize that each medicine has its own benefit to it, its own frequency vibration. Uh, and so a lot of times I think why it's so important right now that we have this psychedelic concierge group is that if you go online right now and you're like, I want to do psychedelics, I heard it's amazing. What do I do? And you go online, you're gonna get like five ayahuasca places and a couple of mushroom places in Jamaica. And you're like, well, I guess I got to do ayahuasca, and then you go and do it. And when in reality, if you had talked to a psychedelic concierge like me and I had found out what your intention was for doing it, what traumas you're trying to overcome, I might have said, Oh, you should definitely do San Pedro. It sounds like you're just disconnected from nature, or you should just microdose because you want a little bit more joy and focus, or oh, you need a hug from your grandmother. So ayahuasca would be great for you, you know, or you have an addiction profile. I think you need to do iboga or ibogaine. So they each have, you know, by having that broader knowledge, you can really help people. And then I feel like we're doing harm reduction really, because people are going to go out, they're gonna go inside their minds, they're gonna take substances. And if we could add a layer in there to help them to do the right one in the right setting with the right people, get their mindset straight first, they will have a good experience and they will be on this journey for a long time, like all of us, where you keep peeling back these amazing, you know, layers on the onion. So I think it's just required right now because you have so many people that are just diving in or about to dive in, and they have no idea where to start, and the internet is not a great representation of where you should No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

It it very much is like the wild west of like finding somebody to help you. And to your point before, there's never been more interest in it. And there's like an abundance of information, but most of it's bullshit and it's very difficult to figure out who to trust. Um, and even the the the gatekeepers, if you will, of the information, right? Like maps, you can't go wrong following something they put out. But okay, well, I'm a dude in Ohio who just went through a divorce. Like, what do I do? Like, who am I supposed to actually talk to? Like, how do I actually get help? Like it's yeah, it's not clear how to navigate that at all. And so if I'm hearing you correctly, you were almost like, I have too many people asking me for help. I don't have great trusted recommendations to point them to. Let me just train my own people so I know what they're providing, and then I'll feel good pointing them to that direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Exactly. And you know, I'll tell you, let me name off a couple of insane, amazing inbounds that you know. I get inbounds, I got one where it was like, can you do 25 people at the Lanai four seasons for our son's 21st birthday? That's strange. Yeah, and I'm like, uh shit, yeah, I think I could do that. Like, go to yeah, I can go to the four seasons, but you know, I need to bring three or four other people with me who have our trained, they're gonna hold space properly, they're gonna be empathetic, they could be, you know, help people with integration because I can't, you know, after 20 people, it's like they can't all call me and be like, so here's what's going on, here's what's great, here's what I need to. So it's really wasn't born out of necessity, but I met when I met my partner, this guy, Sean Gray in Psychedelic Concierge, he had had a life-changing experience. He watched the reality of truth, like truth almost nine years ago. It totally changed his life. He wound up helping rhythmia in the beginning that's in the movie, the ayahuasca place. And he came, you know, when we came together a year and a little bit ago to formalize this, uh, you know, just the fact that we had that uh spiritual connection in the field uh together, it felt like, wow, you know, if I'm gonna ever trust anybody to do this with me and roll this thing out and make sure people are well trained and the right people there. Uh, I needed to be guided again by plant medicine, not my own, you know, trying to shove it into this box that I know or that presents itself. But when it's fully aligned and the frequency, it's like you just kind of know and you're like, oh, this is great. Thank you, universe. And uh so I'm doing a bit of that, you know, surrender experiment. I don't know if you know that Michael Singer book called The Surrender Experiment. He's got another one called The Untethered Soul. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. He um he talks about this, how he realized that you know he he was kind of doing a social experiment with himself where he was just going to surrender outcomes. And the more and more he surrendered, the bigger his business came became until it was like a billion-dollar thing that he sold off. And you know, now he's up here in North Florida. He's you know, twice a week, he's doing his lectures, and there's a cool town called Alakshwa, where there's a thousand families of Howard Christians.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Alaxhwa is a huge bhakti community, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Yeah. And it's also uh there's an Ayurvedic uh clinic there that a lot of people go to. And um, you know, I I have I have I'm luck, really lucky. Somebody taught me how to meditate about uh 35 years ago around this uh same time. And as I learned to meditate and I was able to get deeper, when I really had my big psychedelic experiences, that's when I realized after that I could just like close my eyes and instead of doing my mantra over and over till I kind of transcended the surface level, I could just dip in really deep after my psychedelic experience. And I was like, oh, that's the benefit of psychedelics. It's not like a replacement for meditation, it's just going to enhance your meditation. And you know, some people meditate for 30 years and they still are not in the right frequency vibration.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

I think that is the true value of psychedelics, is to show you what's possible so that you know that's there and you can try to work your way back to it just through the meditation or the breath work or jujitsu or yoga or what have you. Yeah. Um, it's to convince you perhaps that that state is possible. We've got a veteran we're working with right now. For the first time in 30 years, he felt peace when he was at our retreat. And now he's struggling being back home because he's like, What the fuck is I hate everything here? Right. He's enrolled in our program now. I'm like, dude, we're gonna work on this. Like, this is the integration part. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

And now I was gonna say, you know, people always go, Well, yeah, I don't think you need psychedelics, you could just do breath work or you know, breathing or uh meditating. And I'm like, well, you know what? I go, maybe you know, a thousand years ago, that is true. However, when you're talking about right now, the amount of information and technology that people are being confronted with, it they're frozen. They just get in this frozen state. And there's even a um, and and I I don't think that they could get out a pattern interruption from that. A lot of people are trapped in these patterns like nobody's gonna love me, everything's a failure, blah, blah, blah. Um, and so as information comes in, it hits those very rigid patterns, they just spin through that. But when you get a pattern interruption like psychedelic medicine, and now all of a sudden you're like have a little bit of fresh powder in your brain, you're more neuroplastic. When something bad does happen, which it always does in life, things happen, it comes in, it doesn't hit this rigid pattern. It hits this like, oh, well, let's see where this goes. Maybe it's not all bad. Maybe there's a silver lining here. Let me see what happens. And so for me, that's like uh that neuroplastic state is what we need to achieve, especially in this reality where you know people are trying to calcify our. Pineal gland and they're trying to terrorize you into fight or flight, you know. Um, if you're neuroplastic yourself, you're microdosing, you've had some experiences, you get to evaluate things based on your own frequency and how it's hitting you in your frequency. And I'll that's a kind of a good plug for me to tell you that I do have a movie coming out uh around this summer uh called Frequency, the secret of everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

Well, I I was gonna tie this back to your first psychedelic experience because that was new information for me where you're staring at your hand, noticing that it's vibrating at this frequency. And you're you're what, 16 years old, 18 years old and a half? Yeah, 18. And now here we are decades later, you literally have a movie called Frequency coming out, which is about what exactly?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

So this movie is about how frequency is about to be the future of a lot of industries and how we handle uh different things, mental health, physical health. And it turns out that just like when we see old, you know, medical equipment or old dental equipment from the old wild west, you're like, oh my God, what barbarians they were like ripping the tooth. And that is what surgery and cutting people with knives and things is about to be. Uh, because you could you can use frequency to resolve things with the body. Uh, and there are many other applications, even beyond health, in this movie. We cover agriculture, uh, energy creation, all kinds of opportunities. And so it there was a guy in the early 1950s, this guy Royal Reif, who had a who came up with a frequency catalog where he said every disease and every virus has a certain frequency. And if you hit that frequency with the exact opposite frequency, it'll cancel it out and negate it. So, of course, the next day they threw him in a mental institution, destroyed his lab, and tried to suppress it for 60 years. But now those right frequencies are coming out in devices because now our technology is also amplified to where you know you can be holding a powerful device, frequency device in your hand. And so there's a lot of opportunity to take these frequency devices, put the let's I'm gonna give you an example like the like what a healthy liver uh frequency is supposed to be. You put the frequency of a healthy liver cell into this water, these drops, and you drop it in your body, goes in, and it's all the as it goes into your liver and that frequency, all the other liver cells go, oh, this is like a better frequency for us. Let's up level. And they just like all up level. It wasn't that you had to like get in there and move anything. So that's number one, amazing. You can do now, they found out you can do this remote frequency healing through scalar waves. These are waves that are always here. This is how like quantum entanglement works, where they have one you know molecule over here. Uh, they separate it, then they put one in New York and one in you know, Australia, and they heat up this one over in New York, and at the same exact moment in Australia, this other one responds. So it's like, oh, it's connected through the field. Maybe I'm part of the field. Maybe this is like, wow, holy shit, what if? And there's a great uh application for agriculture that's a mind blower where they are doing this now on some big like Archer Daniel Midland fields now because of the success of it. But what they do is they are they are having the uh farmers, when they water their field, they put the water through this frequency structuring device. And what they wind up doing is they spray the field with the structured water and they don't use any fertilizer and and nor any pesticides, and they're getting higher yields with just giving it the frequency. So the example is that you know, if you give a frequency of nitrogen to the plant, it doesn't really know the difference whether it was like a where the nitrogen came from. It just sets off this chemical reaction that you want to have happen. And so we can deliver all of these different uh elements and uh supports by through the field. And there's an example with agriculture where if you're growing corn, let's say, and the caterpillars are eating your corn, but the birds, the crows, eat the caterpillars, then what you do is when you spray the field, you put the frequency of crows into the water and you spray the field, and all the bugs just stay away. They go right around the field because it has this frequency of crows. And so this is really something that's gonna, you know, change everything. It's sort of like a macro leap in how we understand, how we treat the body, the mind, you know, uh, even how we do it at a distance. And so it's a lot of fun. We just, you know, over a few years, thankfully, Dr. Joe Dispenses in the movie, Bruce Lipton, Greg Braden, uh Sim Harriman, Eileen McCusick, uh, all these really cool people. And they break down, you know, the fact that just like you said in the beginning, we're in this field, this you know, quantum field of, you know, and they say that the fourth state of water is actually called plasma. So there's like a solid, a liquid, and a gas, and there's plasma. And plasma is the state that things are in before they kind of manifest, they could manifest in anything. And so we're in this field, and we get to operate, and for some reason we decided we wanted to show up in this plasma field for some reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:58

Zappy, feel free to give like a PC media trained answer on this. But do you go down like conspiracy theory rabbit holes of like okay, dude? Have you ever seen the stuff about like how they destroyed all of the bells in the churches and like how churches used to gather energy from the ether and things like this? Because as you're as you're describing this stuff, man, with like structuring the water, I'm just I'm imagining the lay person out there who hasn't drank ayahuasca listening to this, and they're like, What the fuck are these hippies talking about? But me having done psychedelics, I'm like, sure, dude, you put raven energy into the water and the caterpillars stay away. Why not? Why why wouldn't it work like that? Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:45

Why why do you think everybody's walked everybody's walked into a room and felt some kind of energy and like shit, what's going on here? You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:54

When people try telling me that like this stuff is real or isn't real, I'm like, do you believe in Wi-Fi, dude? Like, there's there's radio waves here. I don't have the equipment to see or interface with it, but I build technology that can. I think DMT is a technology that allows us to interface with the reality of reality. So where I'm going with this, question-wise, uh, you mentioned this Royal Rife gentleman. I've never heard of this guy, but there's there's a lot of stuff like this where it's like people were experimenting with stuff way back in the day and like electro agriculture. I know a little bit about that. Why is this now like groundbreaking revolutionary technology that gets looked at askance by the normal person?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

Um, you know, in in in like your example with the Wi-Fi. If I had told you 40 years ago that there's this Wi-Fi spectrum that you can send information on, you'd be like, dude, like go smoke another joint. Like, you know, you don't, you're whacked, you know. But we keep learning uh about all of these, you know, hidden forces of nature. And um, you know, some of these, like, you know, the way that they just found that soldier over in Iran that crashed, you know, people they're like, oh, they listened for his heart murmur. And I'm like, nah, they did, but every art has a signature frequency.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

Imagine they had some CIA people doing remote viewing and they found him.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

Yeah, exactly. And so this is like using the field, using technology that, you know, again, AI is only accelerating this, and our ability to hold these tools in our hand, you know, is making the difference. Royal Rife, you know, his machine was like, you know, half the size of a room, but the science held up, you know, it's like, yes, we know now that everything has a frequency signature. So if you hit it with an exact opposite frequency signature, science says it has to, you know, change and morph into something different and go away.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:01

This this is the the basis of the name of our company, becoming Ohm. Ohm being the primordial sound of the universe. And um, you gave this example with the liver cell and introducing that to the other cells. I think about a frog sitting in a pond. I don't know if you've ever seen this when they croak and it sends out the ripples. But I like to think that as you as you heal yourself, you become that frog sending out the ripples that other people can get entrained to your frequency because there's so many negative frequencies from social media and the news. So I try to be the um in the room that other people can kind of elevate to. Um, Zappy, I'm gonna let you go in a minute because I know that you got stuff to do. Uh, I have one two burning questions that I I want to ask you before we end up. Quick one why Zappy? What does that mean? Where does that come from?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:50

Because yeah, like so. Basically, what happened? This happened on Wall Street, this transition. My last name is Zappa Lynn, like a violin. And so people have been calling me Zap or Zappy since I'm a kid, you know, teachers, everybody's like, Zap, come over here. Kids love saying Zap, you know, like all that kind of stuff. So my first name is Michael. And when I got to Wall Street, there were so many mics and Michaels. And now, even today, I get on these phone calls with like three mics in me. And I'm like, well, this is why I'm zappy, because I've got to avoid confusion. And this is helping me to, you know, avoid confusion, but number one. But number two, you know, I just like when I say it to somebody like, you know, and they're like about to shake my hand, real serious, and they're like, hi, I'm John Poindexter. And I'm like, I'm zappy, you know, and they're like, What? Like it immediately just like disorients them. You know, I just yeah, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:51

Yeah on contracts, and like you roll into a board meeting with these glasses on, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

100% always do. And it's also very convenient, nobody can see like where you're looking. Um if your eyes are bloodshot, if you haven't slept in a couple of days, they're just like, oh, he looks really fresh, you know. And I'm like, All right, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:12

The the other thing I wanted to ask about, and maybe the answer just is the frequency stuff, but you know, you you mentioned you've always kind of had this gift to uh of of prescience, like uh foreseeing where things are going, the emerging patterns and trends with the dot-com stuff, the infomercial things, the internet. We we can see how that was applied to the marketing brain and to the money-making brain through investment banking. Obviously, the answer is also just the emerging field of psychedelics and the psychedelic concierge service, the guiding people. Um what else is like the next thing coming that you see? Because not not that we're too late on this, obviously. This is a rising tide, but like the the wave has broken, so to speak, right? Like the psychedelics are coming. There's no avoiding that. Um what do you think is like the next frontier, if you will, or what what what predictions do you have for the future of this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:04

Yeah, I, you know, I'm really excited because you know, in the 1960s when psychedelic medicine hit, uh it changed everything: business models, art, music, culture, fashion, like it all changed. And then they were able to suppress it and put this prohibition on us. But now you see the my this microdose sulcibin coming out and all these things. Um they can't suppress it this time. We've got the internet, we've got basic science that people really got comfy with, you know, during the pandemic. And people are thinking about their own mental health, their own wellness, not just going to the doctor and assuming they know what's going on. And so we've got this situation where this perfect storm has led to uh people being ready. But I think probably, you know, like you said, it's it's in the frequency because all of these psychedelics have their own frequency. And I've I've done patches. There's a patch that they have that's a psilocybin patch, you stick it on your skin. It's got the frequency of psilocybin mushrooms embedded in the crystal in the patch, and you wear it and you're like, damn, I'm so calm. Like, there's no way. And then they have another one that's like melatonin frequency, and you put it on literally when you wake up in the morning, you have to like pull it off, or like you can't get out of bed. You're just like so tired and sleepy, you have to take the patch off. And then I've had the headphones, you know, some of these places where you're getting this uh frequency delivered in different psychedelics. And I've even, you know, had experiences with, you know, waves of energy coming at me that are changing my consciousness. And so the future of psychedelics is definitely going to be digital. It's definitely going to be frequency. And I love that because if you're in Alaska and it's frozen tundra and there's no uh mushrooms around or anything, you can still go inside your own mind using the right frequencies to tell your brain because you know, it would basically think about it like this. If you eat an orange, you want vitamin C, you know? So you eat an orange, the it goes into your bloodstream, and it signals in the brain an electrical signal from that chemical reaction, an electrical signal saying, release these, you know, components and so forth. Uh, the same thing happens. If somebody gives you the frequency of vitamin C already, your brain's gonna go, aha, vitamin C, release the uh these nodes and so I think it's just gonna become, you know, as they say, uh less and less physical. We're going into this more light frequency, like Tesla said. If you want to understand, you know, the future, it's frequency and vibration. Einstein said the future of medicine is going to be in frequency. And so we can see that everything's a frequency. I'm a frequency right now. And if I take a mushroom, it's just like this frequency that grew out of the ground. I put it in my frequency, and now I have to synthesize that within my own frequency. And so we've got this amazing opportunity to alter our frequencies using plants or using technology that uh I think uh you know, we have the receptors for. There's no reason we shouldn't use these amazingly safe, beneficial things.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:33

So awesome, man. This all right, this opens the lid on a whole other conversation about like the artificial versus natural and digital versus analog thing that we do not have time for uh and gets scary with like transhumanist things going on, but also how do we reach people at scale? And to your point, of like someone's in Alaska. I mean, I run an online microdosing program. I I get it, not just trying to be a Luddite. We do not have time for that whole conversation. Nice zappy. I was gonna say to wrap this up, man, where do people go? It's literally psychedelicconcierge.com or Google that if you can't spell it and you'll get close enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:09

Yeah, exactly. And uh I, you know, I'm zappy zappalin, uh Z-A-P-P-Y, and then Zappalin like a violin Z-A-P-O-L-A-N. So if you go to my social media, you can click on there and find psychedelic concierge. You can find on zappyzappalin.com, you can find the my movies and um resources and things that could help you. So just get plugged in. I mean, a lot of this is just, you know, I'm fine, I'm sharing what I'm learning and what I'm finding. It's not, I don't have all the answers. I'm just like learning and going as I can and partnering up with other people that have unique knowledge sets. And, you know, I would love to, you know, have another conversation. I'd love to have you on my podcast to talk about microdosing protocols, integration. Like these are the important things. You know, it's not like whether this psychedelic renaissance is going to happen and if these things are effective. It's like, no, are you gonna be ready or are you gonna get left behind?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

Beautiful, man. Thank you so much for your time, buddy. I really appreciate it. Thank you for being you and doing the bidding of the plants.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:20

Yeah, they don't have a voice for themselves, they need us to advocate for them. So thanks for doing what you're doing too. I, you know, I dug into what you were up to and your friend base, like you know, mental Joe and all these cool people. I know you guys are really moving the meter too. And it's like it's not on any one of us, it's really a collaborative effort. And who do you resonate who resonates with you because that's who you can affect in your world.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:48

I I appreciate that very much, man. I I take credit for almost nothing. But yeah, the the people who seem to respect me, that means a lot to me because they're very cool people that I've somehow stumbled into being peers and friends with, and it's it's pretty awesome. And uh I hope that I can count you among that circle now, Zappi. Thank you very much, buddy. Really appreciate it. Appreciate you. Peace. All right, but all right, folks, that's it for this episode of the Play on Medicine for PTSD podcast. I, as as you could tell at the end there, I probably had like a thousand more questions that I wanted to ask him, but we had to get Zappy out of here to go uh, you know, go about his business. So we only had about an hour and a half to to record this one. So I'm definitely looking forward to doing another with him in the future. And I would definitely encourage you guys to suspend your disbelief about you know putting the frequency of ravens into the water or whatever birds, putting frequencies into the water to grow the plants better. This shit is fascinating. And as we talked about at the end there, like if we can accept that there are radio waves all around us that we can't see, but we can build technology to interact with, is it that crazy to think that we can imbue water with some frequency to have some effect that is not immediately obvious to us with the naked eye? I don't think so. So maybe we just sounded like crazy hippies, but maybe you took something really powerful away from this episode. I certainly hope so. So as always, thank you very much for listening. Until next time, peace out. God bless you.