40. Clayton Law - Adult ADHD and Avoidance: Why Important Tasks Feel Impossible

Adult ADHD and procrastination can look a lot like laziness from the outside. But for a lot of high-achievers, entrepreneurs, parents, veterans, and first responders, it’s usually more complicated than that.

In this episode, I sit down with my friend and former mentor Clayton Law to talk through his recent ADHD journey, and why so much of it hit uncomfortably close to home for me.

We get into the stuff most people don’t want to admit: avoiding the work that would actually move you forward, relying on deadline panic, scrolling instead of executing, wondering if it’s a character flaw, and feeling shame because you “know what to do” but still can’t make yourself do it.

Clayton breaks down what changed for him after getting support, experimenting with medication, working with an ADHD coach, and building a routine around how his brain actually works.

This is not medical advice. It’s an honest conversation about attention, avoidance, business, family, and learning to stop fighting your own brain.

What we cover:

•  Why high-achievers can miss ADHD for years 
•  Procrastination as an adrenaline strategy 
•  Why open schedules can wreck productivity 
•  Phone addiction, shame, and avoidance loops 
•  Medication, coaching, and routine without the magic-pill fantasy 
•  Why exercise, lunch, and sleep matter more than we want to admit 
•  How to make hard tasks smaller, clearer, and less scary 
•  Adult ADHD and procrastination in business, parenting, and real life 

The big takeaway: you might not need another strategy. You might need a better system for actually doing the thing.

Connect with Clayton:

instagram.com/clayton.moves

Make Moves Podcast

Make Moves Coaching

The contents of this episode are for educational & entertainment purposes only and are not medical, legal, or mental-health advice. Consult a qualified healthcare professional before making changes.

Thanks again for listening!

Enrollment is open right now for our Mindful Microdosing Program, which has helped 250+ veterans, first responders, and trauma survivors overcome anxiety, depression, and PTSD.

Visit https://www.becomingom.org/coaching for all the info and to get in touch with us.

Or DM us the word INTERESTED on Instagram.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to the Plant Medicine for PTSD podcast. This episode a little bit different, talking to somebody not uh about plant medicine and somebody who doesn't have PTSD. But I'm joined today by my friend slash former mentor of mine, Clayton. I guess current mentor. I was basically here just asking him questions. I say former mentor because Clayton's actually a marketing and business coach that Cordy and I worked with way back in the day when I was still doing my physical therapy for jujitsu athletes uh business. So that's how I knew Clayton, just you know, through through the internet and then through his coaching program. And um he's always been somebody that I've kind of look up looked up to, as I'll I'll talk about in this episode. You know, he's a little bit further along than I am just in life and running a business and having children, and seems like a rad dude and somebody who really has a shit together. And so that's why when a couple weeks ago I saw that he had put out a podcast episode about getting diagnosed with ADHD. I knew that that was something that I wanted to hear more about. And I listened to that episode and it was just like a checklist of my life, like everything that he said I resonated with so deeply. And so, to be completely honest, this podcast episode you're about to listen to, it was a deeply selfish endeavor. I really just wanted to text Clayton and say, Hey, can I just ask you questions about ADHD for an hour? But instead, I said, Hey man, how about you come on my podcast and we talk about this because a lot of our clients and people who listen to this show also have ADHD and executive dysfunction and things like that. So basically, this is an hour of therapy for me dressed up as a podcast episode for you. So I guess thanks for listening to this to give me an excuse to just pick Clayton's brain about this. Um, but I do think that it'll probably be somewhat valuable for those of you with actual ADHD and uh executive dysfunction and things like that, and also just give you a little look behind the curtain at the things that I still struggle with. We try to be pretty transparent about that with our clients, not pretending like I have everything figured out or that I have all the answers. So uh yeah, this episode will give you a little peek inside my brain and inside the shit that I still struggle with. So thank you for being a witness to that. And obviously, thanks to Clayton for taking some time to talk with me about all of this stuff. So let's get into it. So, Clayton, you are, I mean, my podcast, Plant Medicine for PTSD Podcast. It's all about veterans and first responders. You're not a veteran or a first responder, you don't have PTSD. I think you do appreciate mushrooms from time to time, allegedly. Um Allegedly, yes. Allegedly. Yeah, you're a respectable family man. Um, you wouldn't do any of that stuff. But no, man, I wanted to talk to you about your recent fucking ADHD journey, which is like the most millennial thing to call it. It is.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

It really is.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

But um, I was listening to your episode and it just really felt like it was just a checklist of my entire life, and I have an appointment next week with a psychiatrist to get evaluated to hopefully honestly. I was thinking about it like if we'll just run this like a scientific experiment hypothesis, I am a piece of shit and my business is failing because of ADHD. So let's test out some riddle and yeah. Honestly, man, I've gone back and forth in my head so much of just like is this just you know a character flaw, if you will, or this is just like my work, my shadow work, my stuff to that that I need to work through, or is it just an objectively like something's wrong with my brain that we can just medicate? I don't know, man. Especially because I preach so much that uh people don't need to be on SSRIs, for instance, because we can heal from these things and work through them and plant medicine helps and this and that. So I don't feel like it's you know admitting defeat or something to try this, but it has been weird for me to wrap my head around that. But I'm also just at a point where like my business and family are suffering because of it, so I kind of need to try something.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So it's um yeah, you know, like I think like anything in life, it's it's it's a combination and it's a blend, it's it's nuanced, so it's not like okay, is it just like is it just ADHD and I take this pill and everything's grand now? Or is it also just like I have some bad habits or environmental, you know, things, or you know, just like a general phone addiction um paired with that. Um so for me, it's definitely been a combination and it's kind of been like a I don't know, man, like you look back and and things start to make sense. You know what I mean? I look back at like you know things in in high school, um, or I I've kind of a piss poor memory. So like, you know, I don't remember, you know, a ton of stuff, but um there are things there I look back where I struggled, I'm like, oh, that that makes sense. That like that that was ADHD. It wasn't like, you know, just me procrastinating, you know what I mean? And I would, I I was I got like pretty much straight A's, I crushed college, I you know, like I did things really well. And so then you kind of like fly under the radar with like kind of like you know, you're not dyslexic or you're not like have other things that are a little bit more easily identifiable. Um, you know, for people it's like, okay, like you have difficulty reading or you have difficulty with this, so let's address it. Um, but because I was like checking the boxes and doing well, it just kind of, you know, keep going, dude. But I was like stressed out, like because I would just wait to do something until like the last possible moment, and then I would just like pump out a pure adrenaline-fueled, uh, you know, genius, brilliant paper, or crush the exam, or whatever it was. But man, I it really was burning me out for sure. And like now, with um, you know, having kids, like you understand with having kids and running a business, um, actually it's been about with timelines, but I think a year and a half now, it's almost two years uh to the date of when I got laid off from my health coaching job. So that was a corporate gig, you know, shirt and tie, going in the office, wearing a headset, you know, helping people with weight loss, quitting smoking, nutrition, that kind of stuff. But uh I was still working part-time for them. And when I got laid off with a thousand other people that got laid off from that company, just no notice, just like boom, you're done, kind of thing. I realized that um I didn't have any bookends in my schedule, right? And I, you know, because like for that, I was working for them Tuesday and Thursday. I'd put on the corporate Clayton hat Tuesday, work 10 hours, and then make moves coaching was Monday, Wednesday, and then put on corporate Clayton again for Thursday for 10 hours, and then Friday was make moves coaching, right? And I realized now that that was gone, I had a full freaking calendar just open, right? So many possibilities, so much room for activities, right? So many things I could do, right? And like for that first week and a half, I think it was just anxiety-fueled adrenaline, being like, well, it's game time, it's go time, right? So for the first week and a half, two weeks, I was prolific. I think I landed like seven new clients, created three new trainings and lead magnets. I like booked so many sales calls. I'm like, I'm I had no idea that how capped I was. Like I was, I was I was stifling myself. I now I'm now I'm just gonna unleash this fury and grow my business to like unbelievable, you know, heights, right? But once that kind of wore off and I had like more bigger gaps in my calendar, right? You know, maybe uh a day where I only had one client call or you know, something like that, I I started to just spin and I couldn't I couldn't execute on certain things. And I was kind of like flailing with certain things, and I would put certain things off, like certain work tasks, or like things for clients, or like things that I just felt like I don't know how to start that, and I'll just kept putting it off, right? And what ended up happening was just the the shame and the guilt and being like, I gotta, like, I gotta I gotta do this, like I gotta like gotta make money, I gotta like, you know, like provide and pay our mortgage and you know all this like adulting shit. And uh I was no amount of like strategy, like I knew I needed help, but I didn't need like uh you know a business coach or or I didn't need more strategy. I just need like I knew what I needed to do, I just need to do it, right? Yeah, and uh and that's when um I'll I'll shout her out uh Kelly Balms. Um she's uh she puts out great ADHD content. And so I started getting more ADHD uh from the from the almighty algorithm gods uh sending it my way. And I'm assuming more of it. Yeah, and so and right now my algorithm's a mix of ADHD and biking, um, which I'm not mad at, but um a little bit of base in there as well. But um essentially that's my my algorithm. But um it it started making more sense, and then I was just like, is this just like a confirmation bias? Is it just me wanting to want this and like needing an outlet and like needing a reason on why I'm kind of like screwing up in my eyes? Um, and uh, but then as I I started like Kelly in particular, like she had a way with talking about content that wasn't like fear-mongering, it wasn't like you like this, you know, like be be more anxious, be more this, like you need this. Like the content was very inviting and wholesome, and and it started to click in a lot of ways. And I was just like, wow, like and I looked at her things, she offered one-on-one coaching and group coaching. I was like, you know, I've done group coaching before, like, I just want to work with Kelly, right? And so then I I kind of made the decision to do it, and she was actually going on maternity leave, and uh, so I was actually working with one of her um other coaches who's fantastic. I'll shout her out, Heidi, has just been the goat. I've worked with her for three months now and like helps me help myself so much, like it's just so good. And I identify the things where I fumble, where my brain spins in circles and spirals, and like how to creatively experiment with solutions, right? Because like, you know, ADHD and really kind of any kind of neuro spicy stuff is always a spectrum, right? So if someone like has ADHD, like they could struggle with this or this or this, where I struggle more with that, or more intensely with this or that. Um, but for for um for the work that I'm doing with her, it's been profoundly helpful. And I've actually been able to like move forward a lot of projects and a lot of things that I've been really struggling with and have kept them the back burner for quite a while.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

So I I definitely um identify with what you shared of like all your life you would procrastinate to the last minute, but then you almost learned that that was an effective strategy because you got straight A's. Yeah. So I will be able to do that. Great paper. Good job. Yeah. I was valedictorian of high school, and every single assignment got done the night before it was due or the morning of. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Oh, it's giving me like goosebumps and anxiety at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

And I I also I definitely feel what you're saying of when the time structure wasn't there, everything fell apart. Do you feel like that's why we kind of got by for so long? Because like there were there was something else to show up for. Super cheapers that you could yeah, but like why how come how come when we start our own business, I can't show up for work on time for myself? Is it because like I can't get fired from myself? Like, is that the only thing that kept us showing up at work on time and getting our client work done? What like back when I was working as a physical therapist in the in the clinic, I was crushing it. Like, and now, yeah, I need to write an email for seven days, and it's like it takes four seconds to do it.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, it's like you bring up such an interesting point. Um, a lot of us are, you know, like we also kind of operate like out of like people-pleasing, you know what I mean. So if you have a boss who's like, you know, saying, like, hey, these are what you need to do, or you have expectations where you have to answer to someone else, that's uh, you know, that's uh can be a big motivator. But when I look back to um like high school and college, like I played soccer and swam, and like there were some days where I'd wake up early morning swim practice before school, go to school, have soccer practice for two hours, and then go strength train and swim for another hour, and somehow like find time to do homework and shit. Like I was so like just dialed in with like activities that were like mentally challenging, physically challenging, and you know, I and then you just kind of like thrive in that. But when that's pulled out for me, like when you're in college, you're no longer a college athlete, you're no longer doing this, like now you just have like this ambiguous blob of time and opportunity. And that's the thing that I think like becoming a parent, I realized too, is that uh I actually have this one lead that I've been talking to for probably about like two or three months in the DMs, and he's expecting his first kid. He's like, How is that gonna change my ability to do work with you? And and I just gave him a very honest answer. I was like, you know, I have 22-year-olds with like no kids, no like, you know, mortgage, and you know, they can they can be successful and put you know a lot of work out. Um, but uh a lot of times those those types of clients can flounder as well because they just don't have like the time constraints or the the demands or you know needing to perform. And when I became a parent, I realized that like my my time is uh l like you have less time, right? Because even that, like, okay, the baby's gonna go down for a two-hour nap, yeah, in theory, but like that's never really, you know what I mean? Like, you can't bank on that, right? And so, like, okay, I either have 20 minutes or two hours, and I gotta just get this shit done. Um, and so I found that like those time constraints can can help you to um to be more productive. But getting back to your question with like, you know, why can't you make yourself do certain things? Um, there's this like urgency, like this is urgency or this is important. And it's hard for us to kind of like for me at least to kind of distinguish, right? Because if I look at my like, and I've tried lots of different like to-do lists, habit trackers, different things, and I've I finally found like a thing that's been working for a couple months now. But um, I used to put like, here's what I'm gonna do today, and that list was like 17 things long, right? Just like I'm so like over ambitious of what I think I can get done. Um, and then it'll take me like two hours to actually get into like a task or something. And so when you have that, uh it's it it it's you become frustrated, and then you become mad or ashamed or you feel like you can't do anything, and your confidence starts to plummet, right? And it's that self-efficacy, it's your belief in your ability to get shit done starts to go down, and that shit bleeds into the next day and the next week and the next month and the next quarter and the next year, right? And so I realized like I didn't need new fancy, like, you know, I don't even like business strategy or whatever. Like, I knew what I needed to do. Like, I've already learned this stuff and I've already practiced it and it already works. I just need to figure out how to take less off my plate and how to move forward like the biggest money-making activities, make those non-negotiable and make it work for my schedule and make it work for my brain. And for those harder tasks that are important, um, you know, you you gotta just figure out a way to kind of like make it work. And like that's like having a coach in my corner with that has been so helpful to just soundboard ideas. And again, too, she's brilliant. Heidi's awesome, but like I I end up like solving a lot of my problems just like talking and thinking out loud.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

So um I mean, I feel like that's effective coaching. Like that's kind of what I tell our clients. Like, I have almost no answers for you. I can teach you a couple of objective things, but other than that, I'm helping you ask better questions and you figure it out. So, to that point, what what do you feel like Kelly and uh Heidi are actually doing for you? And like what do you attribute to the medit to the medication? What do you attribute to them?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, I mean the medication definitely definitely helps um for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

And you you you could you could poll a hundred different people and ha people have a hundred different opinions and you can read Reddit threads and you know I've I've from doing some of that, I've seen people just be like, Yeah, I took Ritalin and then I just really intensely scrolled Instagram for eight hours.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Exactly. Yeah, I built an AI chat bot that I don't need, kind of shit. Like, yeah. Um it's uh it's interesting, right? So we we seek like novel experience or things we're passionate about, or like things that like it's just so interesting. And and you you you kind of like for me with the medication, I the let me just lay out a typical day. So we wake up, I wake up around like I don't know, 6:45 and get the kids ready around like seven-ish, and kids are, you know, we get them in the morning routine, and then I don't really kind of sit down for work until like 9 15-ish. Um, and then I take my medicine right at like 7 a.m. essentially. So it starts to kick in. And I'll know it's kicking in when I'm starting to like organize my thoughts in like my my brain dump for uh my to-do list for that day. So things start becoming a little bit more clear because otherwise I'm ping-ponging between ideas and never really finishing a thought and just going to another thought and like, oh, I should do this and do this and do this. And before I know it, I put 20 things on my plane for that day, and then I'm gonna be overwhelmed and not be able to do anything. So I it starts becoming more clear on like what is the actual next step I need to do. So I'll start to like just brain dump that and then I can kind of categorize it. And so then um, when I sit down um at 9:30, that's when I actually reach out to all my leads, right? So you kind of have to identify like what are the big money-making activities, what are the big needles that are gonna move your business forward, right? And so for me, uh, if I have it here, it's a grid post, right? So that could be a real or a carousel, like just posting on Instagram, um, selling in my Instagram stories, um, following up with leads, conversation with leads. Um, I have a new follower DM automation with many chat, but sometimes I also like to go above and beyond and like reach out to those potential kind of dream client caliber people. Um, and so I'll do that as well. Um, exercise and lunch are like I found to be extreme non-negotiables for me. Um, like anytime I'm not moving my body, it could be a kettlebell workout, it could be biking, it could be just going on a hike or a walk, um, going on a run. Like, if I don't do that, like I get super just like in my head. And I I don't, I'm not able to um like actually get things done. So I need to move my body in order for my brain to calm down enough in order to like do what it needs to do. Um, and then lunch is a big one too. Um, so when I'm like working, a lot of times I would forget to eat lunch, and my lunch would be uh like five or six sour gummies and like the leftover mac and cheese my kid didn't eat, and like that was my lunch, and or or I would just not eat it at all, and I'm just like and I can't operate on that. Like I'm a grown-ass man, and I like I need this fuel for my brain and for my body and stuff. So when you pair like skipping exercise, skipping lunch, and not getting great sleep and on like a dysregulated nervous system if you're not addressing your stress and and doing things you need to do, like it it's just a perfect storm for dysregulation and and not being productive with ADHD. So for me, like I I have those things um that I hit every single day, and I have to hit those because those are the things that move the needle forward for my business, and then anything on top of that is just kind of a bonus. Um, and again, it's not sexy, it's not this crazy strategy, it's just something I do consistently every single day.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

What do you Clayton? What do you attribute the avoidance to like prior to sorting all this out, right? You you would have uh these leads to reach out to, and you're like, objectively, this is what will make me money, which will solve my stress. Like pretty much sales solves almost every issue that you have, like pressingly at least. And if you you know pre-figuring this out, you're like me, like that is the thing that you probably avoided doing the most, right? That's what I that's what I currently am avoiding. I should probably be doing that right now instead of scheduling this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

You can do it right after this podcast. Um, that's a fantastic freaking question. Um, the main thing, well, there's a couple of things. One is that like you feel like it's gonna take way longer than it will take. Um, you know, and a lot of times too, like so vagueness is my enemy, right? So like just vague, not specific, right? So if I just say like reach out to leads and I put that I put a 30-minute window or an hour window on my calendar, like that it like I think that's specific, but apparently for my brain, it's just too vague and it feels like it's too big of a thing. So I'm just not gonna do it, right? And the longer you kind of put something off to, the bigger and scarier the monster in the closet becomes, right? And you're just like oh shit, I haven't done this forever. Like you look at a habit track and you don't have that for all month, you're like, oh man, it's gonna be so so much effort. But like there's this one girl, I don't I don't remember her handle, but she's just like, Welcome to today's episode of like, how long does it take? Today, I'm gonna be cleaning my drunk drawer. And she's like, How long does it take? Let's find out. And then she hyperlapses it, right? And then it's just like 17 minutes. And how long did I put this off for? Eight months, you know. So, like, and it's it's funny because it's true, right? And so, like, for me, I struggle with like anything doctor appointment related. It could be the dentist, it could be eye exam, it could be like getting a new PCP, it could be car registration, um, taxes, anything like that, where I'm just like, well, it's gonna be a big old adulting thing. Like, man, like I avoided like the plague, right? And I still need to get a new PCP, right? Um, but it's one of those things where like the longer it stays in my to do list, the more guilt and shame I have about it, and then the bigger I feel like it's gonna take. Whereas like when you actually walk through that door, you're like, Oh, that wasn't that bad. Um, so the one thing that uh we kind of landed on is that I need specificity, I need smaller chunks, and I need to experiment with like just just start it, right? You know, so like if it's a if it's a Client task, like hey, build out four automations for David, right? With many chat, I could be like, okay, I gotta build out four automations. That's gonna that's gonna be a lot of effort, right? But if I could just say like start the first automation, right? Just open many chat, just start it, right? Like, oh yeah, I just started. Oh, well, I'm just gonna do this. And before I know it, I'm like, I'm in it, right? I'm like, well, that was easy, I'm gonna tackle the next three, right? But if I say, okay, an hour block time, and I just put like take care of clients on it, or two hour block time, take care of clients. It's that law of um there's a law of something where it's just like the amount of time you give to something, like it'll, you know, you'll take that much time to work. The work expands to fill the time that's exactly like a goldfish in a bigger tank, or you know, you when you start a new tube of toothpaste, you're just gonna squeeze that thing on there. But when you get near the end, you're like, man, you're just like a ninja at rationing and and getting every little bit amount out there. I could do that with like my hair wax and stuff, you know. So um so yeah, we we'll we're just gonna use them at our time point. Or extremely specific. Extremely specific and smaller bouts. Like you can still block off a two-hour thing, but like in that two-hour thing, block off like a very specific task for that very specific thing. For like, for example, launching this, relaunching my podcast, how am I to do this for like so long, like two years? And just kept putting it off because it just felt like such this big lift. But when I honestly looked at them, like, what are every single step that I need to do to get this off the ground? Right? Okay, I need this, and like, and I got like micro steps, and it was this huge checklist, but I could start chipping away at it. Um, and it was just like a lot more doable. So if you have these bigger projects and tasks, like just chipping away at it. Um, getting back to your original question though, like, for example, like reaching out to leads, if that's gonna make you money and grow your business, why do we avoid it? Right, so that's one thing. It can feel like a big thing. The second thing, and there this is more kind of like you know, if you're talking about like shadow work or something, it's like maybe you don't feel like you're good enough to take on new clients, right? Maybe you don't feel like you're effective, or like maybe there's doubt on something else. Or um, I I've had this epiphany too, where I have some clients that um it's like pulling teeth, you know, and I'm just like, hey, let's do this, let's do that, and then you know, they just don't, you know, execute. And it can be frustrating for them, it can be frustrating for me, um, or it takes a lot of time, they got a lot on their plate, maybe a death of a loved one, or they're expecting their first kid, or whatever it is, right? Um, but I sometimes could self-sabotage, right? Because it's just like, well, if I take on a couple new clients, what if they're all like super needy, you know, need a lot of hand holding and a lot more effort from me, right? But what if they're rock star clients? Like I've got like seven clients right now. I'm looking at my clients list that like they just like crush it, you know. I'm like, hey, let's do this. And they're like, cool, done. Awesome. All right, start plugging that. I just like did it. That's and I'm like, that's oh my god, that's my I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

That's something I've been playing with of like as I'm messaging new people on Instagram, imagining that they are going to become my new favorite person and like my new best friend client, and just like have so much fun working with them, and like I just don't know it yet. And I'll even think of a current client that I love and be like, they were once a random person on Instagram, and now I love them and I love working with them.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

So I and so like it's a dude, I love that as well. Cause I mean, you're just you're just envisioning that, you're planning for that, you're expecting that, you're opening that up. And the other thing too is like um, you know, like it we we we put roadblocks a lot on the time, and then also just like rejection too. Um what if they're like, oh, not right now, or like, oh I'm I went with another coach, or like, ah, I'm just you know, and so like uh there's and I don't I it could be a combination of like people pleasing, rejection, kind of sensitivity. I don't lean too far into that because like you know, it it is what it is, and the older I get, I kind of you know make peace with that. But you gotta go through a lot of no's or a lot of not right nows um until you get to that. And also, too, I just found the art of the follow-up, like just pinging people, like and and having a CRM that I actually use and and knowing who I want to touch base with and at what timeline, and just being human and just like one of my past clients was like, dude, like I I just love the way that you like talk with me in the DMs. It's not like there's no pressure, there's no whatever, and like I appreciate that. And they I remember that. It's that whole adage of like they're not gonna remember what you say, but they're gonna remember how you make them feel, right? Um, and it's so true. And there was another post that one of my old clients sent me. He's like, This made me think of you. And it was this dude who is a real estate agent, and he was talking about like one of the goaded real estate agents, like of you know, you know, the of the millennia, right? So it's like maybe back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, whatever. He's like an old head, right? And he goes, his whole marketing strategy for being the number one real estate agent like in the nation with like sales and and closing and percentages and stuff like that, his whole strategy was writing um every single client of his a handwritten card every month. Like every month without and like so, and this guy's had hundreds and maybe thousands of clients, just did it, right? Handwritten card, hey, how's you know, this kid, that kid, this, right? No, no motive, like, hey, if you know anyone looking to buy or sell, let me know. Just just a touch point, right? And the overwhelming amount of just like, holy shit, like whatever this guy's name was, like, Jeff is just like such a good dude, right? And and then you're just like continually top of mind, right? And when the like, I always tell my clients, like, you're not in the art of twisting people's arms, right? Like, I'm never gonna be like, it's now or never, or like, you know, read out your credit card number. Like, that shit drives me crazy. Like, I can't believe people like do that stuff, right? It's where you show up consistently and the opportunity meets that right time in their life where uh it's the decisional balance of I call it the I'm done moment. I'm done. Like, I'm done trying to just figure out man's. I'm done trying to like push this PTSD like down and stuff. I'm ready to face it. Like I'm I'm done trying to like, you know, figure this out on my own or tinker with this or you know, listen to podcasts or binge like you know, all these self-help books. Like I I want to face it, I want to solve it. Or for me, it's like I'm done trying to like piece this strategy together and try and do this person's content strategy and that person. Like, I just want someone to tell me what to do and I'm I'm ready to do it, right? So when you show up consistently enough and you message your leads enough and you are just like a genuine human being on the internet, uh, you know, the right time will happen for them. And when it does, you're ready. And so I just thought that was brilliant with like the handwritten cards. And again, like I can't really do that because like I don't want to, you know, I respect my client's privacy. I'm not gonna ask for everyone's address, you know. But what is the digital equivalent of that? And it's just a voice memo, right? Yo, dude, been thinking about you. How's life? How's the kids? Like, are you still are you still doing this? Like, like, let me know, right? And again, there's no like and people's spidey senses might be kind of up, right? They might be like, oh God, Clayton's gonna pitch me and try and get me on a call or ask me about my business, and I'm not. Like, I'm I'm really not. And but if you take the conversation that way, sure, I'll talk to you about that. Yeah, how's it going? What are you working on? Oh, do you need some help with that? I got a lead map for that. Boom, here you go. And they're like, uh, thanks, right? And so you just become this person in their mind that when they're ready, they're going to you. Um, and there'll be some weeks where like I don't get any inquiries on my like selling in my Instagram stories, you know, like two weeks, right? But because I keep showing up and people keep seeing that, and maybe, you know, they in their mind they're like, I'm gonna reach out to Clayton in the spring, I'm gonna reach out to Clayton in June, I'm gonna reach out to Clayton in July. And then they have that I'm done moment, right? And maybe it was like a very powerful storytelling post I did. Maybe it was a very specific client one that they resonated or connected with. Um, and so yeah, dude, like um it's once you kind of do that that thing you're avoiding and you consistently do it, like right now on my on my habit tracker, um, I'm probably about I don't know, 15 days into like consistently following up with leads every day. Um, and it's been it's not scary anymore. And I told my coach, I was like, I want this to not be scary or intimidating anymore. That's a goal of mine, right? Because if it's just easy, like now posting every day, you know, for since October 1st, so whatever the math is on that, like hundreds of days, um, it it's just a part of what I do now. It doesn't feel like effort. So if you could take the really hard thing or the intimidating thing and make it just second nature and and easy, then like that's now your business is is running really well. Um so now you don't have to be like turn your biggest weakness into your biggest strength. Like, I'm not talking about shit like that, but just like the things that you know you need to do. Like, if you can do those five days a week and not have to like drag yourself out of bed to do it and you just do it, then like think of how much easier it's gonna be. So, like that that's a big thing for me. And and last thing I'll say on that, unless you have a follow-up question, is the the the leads follow-up. Um, I I have a this or that, right? So reach out to five leads or reach out to leads for 30 minutes, whichever comes first. And once I hit that five lead mark, it just kind of turns into a fun game. I was like, oh, I'll see how many I can actually do, right? Um, and so then you kind of like um give yourself a little dopamine with like the gamification of it. Um, but you have to figure out what is gonna work best for you, right? Whether it's specificity in time or specificity in numbers, right? Like I'm gonna reach out to five leads, or I'm gonna finish two lead magnet whatever, or I'm gonna do whatever you know the task is that you're avoiding. So um, yeah. Did that answer your question?

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Uh actually, no. This was all marketing gold, and I took a lot of notes, and it was extremely helpful.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

That's just where my brain goes. So, yeah, ask the question.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

The question very specifically was like, why do you think we avoid this thing that is the most important thing to do? And you touched on it of maybe there's the fear of rejection, which I don't think either of us really feel. I think part of maybe what I've struggled with is the not being good enough, not necessarily just that I can help these people. I know that we can, but the capacity thing, yeah, like back when I was doing physical therapy, back when I worked with you, I only ever had seven clients at a time. And my family would give me so much shit, they'd be like, How many clients you got? No matter what when they asked me, it was seven. And I I think deep down I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to keep up with things with more people. And we're we're well past seven now, but still I I think that might be in the back of my head, but it's a little bit frustrating because I don't feel like I've ever really put my finger on like what it is that I have been avoiding. Yeah. And so I I maybe this is where like, hey, it's not actually shadow work stuff, it's just you have fucking ADHD and you need this medication. Like maybe that actually is the answer. Yeah. But I I I want to run a theory by you and maybe it'll help to like boil this down. I I think that every addiction, like the addiction itself, is not really the problem. So someone who has a drinking problem, they don't have a drinking problem, they have a drinking solution to their pain, to their anxiety problem, or their self-worth or whatever it is. Yeah, and in that sense, I I think you know, the phone is certainly an addiction. Um, honestly, in the past, like porn has been that. Yeah, it's been replaced with scrolling, which is better, still not great, yeah, but objectively, probably less of a mortal sin. Totally. Uh so I don't know still what problem that solves exactly. And maybe I need to give up looking for it and just take the riddle and or work with Heidi. Or maybe putting my finger on that would help. So what what do you think that has been for you?

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Yeah, I I think if if we're speaking about this generally too, um it's it's kind of like you, if you look at that nervous system regulation, homeostasis, right? Like you you become familiar with a certain level of being. Um and I I saw this a lot too when working with people who you know um are struggling with chronic pain, like if they've had back pain for two years, it becomes a big part of your identity, right? Same if you're dealing with the addiction or if you have some chronic illness that you you're diagnosed with, like you start to like it shapes you. And so then, like, even if you want to change your life, right? Even if you're like broke or down and out, like you want to change your life. Yes, I want a better life, but like you you're you can sabotage yourself to keep you there because like it's familiar, right? And you're there, right? And so it was um, you know, like that being at seven clients, right? That's a that's a great example because like you know, for so long, like my business was straight up, and I'll I promise I won't take this to marketing business too too much, but like I was stuck at 25k a year for four years, right? And it was just like trying to share it. I always said I wanted more money, I wanted more clients, but I wasn't like willing to get uncomfortable to do the work that I needed to do to get to six figures and beyond. And so um I think a lot of it is like you have to kind of shed layers of this held belief of who you are in order to become the newer version of you that can have that life, that that does have 25 clients and is fine with it. Um, you know, so I think that's a that's a big thing. It's scary, it's uncomfortable, and like you start playing the what if game. Well, what if like whether on a conscious or subconscious level, you're like, well, what if I can't handle that? What if like people like have a bad experience and ask for refunds? What if this? What if I, you know, break down from all the stress, like so many things, but like you're never gonna really know. And so I found that actually walking through the door will give you the confidence to believe that you can become the the newer version of yourself. Um, let me give you another example, it's not business related. So um I had to really change the inner narrative of myself with my back. Um, and like you saw too, like and you like you're like, I don't want to see that shit, man. You're like, well, I had that video where I'm like limping with two canes, and it's like it was hard to see myself like that. But the reality was like I was overweight, I was drinking a ton, uh, my back was hurting. I it like you know, I ended up getting back surgery. It was like, it was a whole mess. Um, and this inner health narrative is that like um also like I I could never uh be an endurance athlete. Um, you know, not that I want to be an athlete, like you're we're all athletes, right? But like I don't need to compete. Um, but like I wanted to feel like I had the ability to to like run really far or like bike for a long time. And so like biking has been uh quite a gift for me because it's been actually it's way more fun than running, in my opinion. But object is easier on the body and you can actually cover a lot more ground, and it's really, really fun. Um, and so uh, but I I biked a hundred miles in one day. Um, this was like you know, last summer, it was a couple months ago, but um, and uh it it unlocks something in my brain where I was like, holy shit, I can do hard things. Like, wow, I can I'm I'm able to do this. And it started with like, okay, I'm gonna go on a bike ride over you know, lunch. I was like, oh, I got three miles in. Oh, cool, you know, I'm like, I got this in, like, oh wow, I hit seven miles. My first 10 mile ride, like, wow, and like, oh, I can ride my bike from my front door down to the point, right, in Pittsburgh, like where the three rivers meet, and back. Oh, that was 25 miles. I did that in like X amount of time, amazing. And so as I kept doing more things related to that thing, I started to slowly believe that I can be this kind of person, that I can do this kind of stuff. And so I think that you know, it you just kind of have to do the smaller building block steps in order to build the body of work and the proof that you have the capacity to change. And before you know it, like you know, like I went on a ride yesterday and it was like 20 miles, and I just like had an hour, and I was like, I'm gonna just like sprint and just see how many miles I can get. And I was just like, that's incredible. Like, and I it's I I think that's the big thing is like don't try and like wrap your mind around like how can I achieve this outcome. You're like, okay, that's the outcome. Here are the steps I think I needed to take, or you talk to a coach and they say these are the steps you need to take. And you're like, great, I'm gonna just just do these things so consistently that I start to believe that like I can do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:16

So that's a I you still haven't actually answered my question, Clayton. But I am going to extract and extrapolate an answer, which is I think it's all boils down to self-efficacy. Everything that you've described, whether it was with your back and with biking, whether it was with breaking down the task to be so small that you're like, well, of course I could I could message five people today. Of course I can do that. But it's when we don't believe that we are capable of doing the thing that we'll find all the reasons not to do it, and now we have proof of like, ah see, like I I couldn't, I I knew I couldn't do that. And I think that's where a lot of the self-sabotage comes from, too, is like protecting us from the the failure that would come from that. So I I've I kind of laugh when people talk about like a fear of failure. It's like I know exactly how to fail, I'm not afraid of that. I've been I've been doing that for decades, right? Yeah, it's the being successful thing that I'm not so sure about.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, and it's um it's it's kind of like the the uncharted waters uh of it. Um and there's also the the idea too, it's like what is your true capacity, you know, and like you might have this predetermined, like I probably can't take 10 clients, but I I found too that um if you can take on more, um what whether it's more miles, more clients, more whatever, like you can actually find your actual true ceiling um before you like you know when we don't want people to burn out or have a panic attack or just take on way too much, but you know, you you can't find the leaks in the boat until you put people in it and put it in the water and like, oh, there's a leak, right? Let's fix that. And so I found that like right now I've got 18 clients, and like I've with having that caseload before, because I was much like you, I sometimes look and I'm like, oh, I got three clients. Okay, you know, and would be that way for a while. And um you start to figure out like how to make things more efficient, um, how to make your deliverables more efficient, how to do onboarding more efficiently, how to you know create templates and stuff for your clients and all this other stuff. But yeah, I I think that's a big thing is like you have to you have to believe, but it's hard to believe when you don't have any action or proof. And I think our brains really crave that forward momentum, especially with ADHD. Like you you need to feel progress because uh a lot of times too, we we struggle with um open loops, right? So we'll we'll start something and then not finish it, and then like we start to feel like crap because of that, and then we start something else. Like, oh squirrel, let me do this, and then we move that forward, move that. And then when you you look, I was so busy today, I was working so hard, and you got nothing to show for it because nothing was fully done. And and that's so frustrating. And so when you can take more off of your plate and just have like three things in front of you, you're like, All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna crush these three things, right? And then you all right, now I'm gonna put more on the plate, more on the plate. But you can you have to finish things. Um that that's the biggest thing is like unfinished projects will will crush your soul.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Do you have people, Clayton, that you uh look up to that you're friends with, not coaches that you hire, just like a personal circle of people around you that you feel like are making you do better?

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Yeah, yeah. It's uh, you know, and I I it's it it's cool because like I don't I don't like idolize people as much as I used to earlier on. Like I used to really put people on pedestals, but like now it's like I'm just slowly becoming more proud of the person that I've become. Um and I think it's kinda never really thought of that, but it's kind of huge for me. Like I don't really like idolize or fanboy over people that much, like in the in the space or like look to like heroes or something like that. Um and even in my personal life too, like I and this could just be getting older, like having kids, and your um ability to do other things just kind of shrinks. But like I used to look at certain people, like one of my best friends, he's uh they're they're actually our kids' godparents. Um, they live in an airstream. Uh shout out Paul and Shannon. Um they're awesome, I love them. Uh, but you know, they live in an airstream and travel all over the United States national parks and make YouTube videos, and they have like other business ventures they do, but like they're like living a really awesome life. And like old me, maybe like you know, back in like 2019 or something like that, would look at that and be like, oh man, like the FOMO and like the like man, I really want that, and I want that experience. I want to get out there and like climb and you know, do all that stuff. But now I'm just like I've made peace with like you know the the here and now and like what my day actually looks like. Like I work from home, I go on bike rides, I hang out with my kids at 4 p.m. and put them to bed, and it's just groundhog day. But like, you know, it's uh I love it. I love the life I'm creating, and so like I've just kind of like really put on a lot of the blinders. And I think in terms of like ADHD and also in terms of like the age of information where there's just literally infinite possibilities on things you could learn, things you could implement, things you could get busy with doing. Like, there's like so much information, so many possibilities, so many things you could should be doing, right? That's a that's kind of a shitty feeling, right? Um, when you take a lot of that off your plate, you can just focus on the things that actually bring you pure joy or grow your business, and you can like get more done with doing less, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

All right. Last thing I want to actually ask you about, uh, because this has mostly just been a therapy session for me, disguised as a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

I'm um lots of you ask really great questions, dude. I'm sorry if I always never answer.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

No, no, man, it's great. Dude, I told I told Cordy the other day that I was doing this and I was like, Yeah, I really just wanted to talk to Clayton.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

I was like, we could do another one and just talk.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

I d dude, there's very few people. This is why I just asked that question, man. There's very few people that I actually like look up to. Not idolizing, but it's like you're, you know, a little bit older than me, further along in the business, have the two kids already. I got, you know, one one on the way. And uh there's like you and my buddy Rob, who's like a 40-year-old dude who lives in Pennsylvania, also that I haven't seen in three years. He's like my best friend. I haven't talked to him in like two years. Call him today. Call him today. Anyway, I I will. Um I was texting him the other day. My actual question related to ADHD, talk to me about the experience with the medication. So have you, did you was there a process of dialing in the dosage? How did you guys determine what was right for you? And you don't take it every day, right? So it's just like performance-enhancing drug on the days where you need to focus. Is that kind of how you use it?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Yeah, yeah. I take it Monday through Friday. Um, because like my I really struggle with like because like the the day-to-day life, like um, like I enjoy doing dishes, I enjoy doing like some housework, I enjoy like playing with the kids, and I love doing certain things. And so like I don't need to like take medication in order to like get that daily task stuff done. Like I just it's just part of what I do, but like work stuff that feels like intimidating or stressful. So, like that, yeah, like I it's purely just like I need to get work done that I maybe found intimidating or a little bit boring or a little bit like whatever. Um, and so yeah, I just take it Monday through Friday, and and that's kind of nice too, because like you know, you you kind of like the the tolerance component, right? Like with any drug or whatever. Um, and so yeah, I take it Monday through Friday, and it is like I looked at it and I think most people are like this. Like I took like Adderall and you know, Vivance in college to like you know crush papers, you know, or stuff like pull an all-nighter for like finals exams. Like you like, I knew so many people in college that did that. So like I was familiar with like my experience with it, but also when it comes down to like okay, what's the the set setting and intention, you know, kind of thing. So yeah, for sure. You know, before it's just like, well, I was also like binge drinking Thursday through Saturday, and also like just didn't have my prefrontal cortex fully developed and just like had different values and things that I were important to me. So it's it's much different now, like you know, at my age and where I'm at in life, like I can now like respect it and appreciate it and like you know structure my day so I get the most out of it. So that being said, when I he looked at me and said, Okay, you know, I you know, you've tried this, you try this. I think like maybe an extended release would be good. And he talked to me about like, okay, what's your day? Where do you struggle with? Um, you know, what's your experience with this? Um, what's your experience with that? Like, you know, what's your do you drink a ton of coffee? So just kind of getting a little bit of an experience. Um, and then the interesting thing about medication, um, and I I had no idea about this, is that you know, it is a stimulant, but it um basically, if you have ADHD, you're not able to like produce enough dopamine to like actually just get your brain to like be interested in doing a lot of things. Um, and so it it gives you that dopamine, but um for some people, like the only side effects you're gonna really get is like anxiety or like difficulty sleeping. So you like if you have any of or like racing heart, so like just like the obvious stuff, you're like, wow, I'm super anxious, or well, my heart is pounding, or I uh, you know, I can't sleep, you know, I'm I'm completely wired, then like okay, then you can just like tether the dose down, right? But like if you're not feeling that, then you're fine. Um, and again, I'm not not a doctor, right? But like, you know, as you're working through this process, and uh so then it it becomes like okay, how much is enough to feel like your brain is is more linear linearly thinking and you're able to like get into task and you're you're thinking more clearly and you're you you you feel that lift off. Um, so that's definitely a component of it. Like, um, but uh yeah, so for me, we just kind of like I think nailed the dose on the first time. Like maybe I could do a higher dose, but I really don't feel like I need it. Um, so I'm on 20 milligrams of extended release uh at all. And it basically I take it seven, and then I feel the effects kind of wear off around like 2 p.m. ish, um, which is again like you know, that's fine for me because like that's like when I get the bulk of my work done. Um and I never had any of those bad side effects, and I feel like I I got enough of a you know kind of a a boost that I could I think of it like a um almost like a catalyst for like a chemical reaction and chemistry, right? So if you got like it takes this much of an amplitude or whatever to like have the reaction, the catalyst just like lowers that amplitude, lowers that bar so that you can just like hop over it easier. So like that's kind of the imagery that comes into my head. Um, but the other thing is too, is like uh don't when when the medication kicks in, like don't be like cleaning your house or like you know, doing laundry or doing like just like try and be in the setting where you can get work done. Your environment is huge, right? Like changing my office and making like reminders and and making it clean and making like the things that are accessible and removing the distractions and removing the things that I struggle with. Um also helps, you know, to just like have the medication have a direct.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

That sounds that sounds exactly like what we teach people for microdosing mushrooms. Exactly. Same same stuff applies. And dude, with having the environment clean, I'm looking around at my desk. My desk is a shit show. And I literally told Cordy yesterday, I was like, Can you please help me clean my desk? Because somehow I clean it every couple days, and somehow it's disgusting again. And I've just accepted that I can't actually do it, apparently. I'm a 31-year-old man, I can't keep my desk tidy somehow. I was like, maybe I need a woman's touch in here. Yeah. She's like, she's like, no problem, that's why I'm your wife. And I was like, that's the best answer possible. Totally. So sorry that I am this way.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

No, and and again, too, like um what you talk about, it's just a little micro accountability, too, right? Like, um when and and and the ADHD world, they call it like body doubling, right? So there's I've heard that term.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

What's that? What is this? What I've heard that term. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 49:56

So it's like, let's say, what's a task that you've been avoiding work-wise?

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Oh dude, I'm like two years behind on my taxes.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Okay, yeah. So taxes, right? Like, um, and that's that's a big one, right? So like you you could say with Cordy, right, like, hey, tomorrow from like 9 to 10 30, I want to just like gather all the paperwork. Right, so so again, that you're not putting like on your counter. Get taxes.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Do taxes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

You're saying, like, okay, like what are all the steps I need to do? Okay, all right. So maybe like from that hour and a half, you say, like, find every piece of paperwork or digital document or like download your Stripe, you know, CSV file or whatever. Yeah, yeah, break it down into the like just like gather all the documents, and so I'm gonna do that from 9 to 10:30. Can you do me a favor? Can you just sit next to me while I do that? You don't have to do any of the work. Like, I'll do it, but like I just need you like there next to me so that I'm not gonna scroll on my phone, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Bro, that's so real. Because there's been so many times where like I'll hear someone coming up the stairs, whether it's like her or something I'm working. Yeah, dude. And that's been that way my entire life, ever since I was a little kid.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Or as a little kid too, it was like, I'm not eating, I'm not eating snacks in the kitchen right now. 100%, not me. Um, all right, that makes sense. Last actual, actual last question, because I know you gotta be respectful of your time. Um, how has this stuff affected your relationship with your wife? And maybe with your kids too.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

So she's actually found out that she's uh also a little bit neurospicy there with that. So um she's uh yeah, we we learned a lot about both of ourselves. Um and it's uh it's some cool. She hasn't started medication, but um, you know, she's gonna explore looking into it and stuff like that. But um just more acceptance on like who we are. Um, like she's she is my absolute best friend, and like we we communicate well, we're we it's just it's the easiest person I've ever like had as a friend. Um, and it's just it's so cool like that we get to like raise these little kids together too. But um I mean that's that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

But like when you were struggling with stuff, was it like weighing on your guys' relationship? Was it like causing stress or it never really touched that very much?

SPEAKER_00 52:10

No, never really, like on our relationship, it was more in internal, just beating the shit out of myself, um, essentially. Um, like uh, but like never any pressure from her, never any like just just support. And and you know, it's like she might like kind of say, like, hey, like maybe like you know, maybe you should talk to someone, maybe you should like find a like because anytime I would like struggle with my business, like when I actually hired a coach, like things just got better. And so she's like, Well, is there some coach you had your eye on, or is there someone like and I was just like, I don't think I need a coach, but like I I honestly think I just need to like you know see if I have ADHD, like take medication, see if that helps, and then like maybe maybe hire this, I don't know, whatever her name is. Is it Kelly? Like, let me maybe I'll hire Kelly, right? Um, and just kind of slowly putting those pieces together, but um, just like like very subtle prompts like that. Um, you know, so it was more of like me being hard on myself than than anyone else. Um, but like I I recognize the pressure, right? Because you see, like, okay, this this money is going away now that I lost my job, there was that clear thing we had to displace. And then, you know, kids can get expensive with with different things, and so um, yeah, it's just uh and and and not talking about things um out loud, uh it keeps all of these inner thoughts just pounding against your own brain, and then you just slowly tear yourself down. And so, like, just like again, like just talking with a coach, you know, like over the over Zoom, like and and like for for her, like we do like bi-weekly calls. Um, and so it's just been so helpful to know that like I'm not like broken, um, I just have to find creative ways to work around my brain um and make it work for me. So that like yeah, it it's big. So, like again, like talking with your partner is is is a big part of it. Um, and just like you know, being like, hey, I I don't know how to fix this, but I know I need some help, um, kind of thing, can just ease the tension a lot.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

We're yeah, I mean, Cordy was super stoked that I listened to your podcast. She's the one who found this doctor that I'm going to see next week.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

But I maybe for us it's unique too because we run the business together. And there's been multiple times where Cordy was like, if you weren't my husband, I would have fired you by now. Because like you're just not doing the things that need to get done. Like, yeah, that's the problem. All right. Uh Kelly Kelly, maybe you could send me her Instagram profile. I'll s I'll send you her page, dude. Yeah, it's fantastic. There's another dude. Uh, Ezra DeWolf is an ADHD coach. They must spend so much money on their retargeting ads. Oh, I've seen his stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, dude. The the ads are very effective. I've like clicked the links in his emails and started filling out the form like eight times and then I stopped.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that funny? Yeah. I think I I looked at one of his, uh I think I watched his webinar and then looked at his stuff.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

But yeah, it's um it's it's you know what's funny too is I wonder why people click the links in my email and then stop short of setting up the call. Meanwhile, I'm doing the same fucking thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

It's it's I feel like a lot of it, it's just like we we we shy away from discomfort. Um, and like there's obvious discomfort, right? Like, you know, like really hard conversations, or like I don't know, doing like an ultra marathon across the Sahara Desert. Like that's obvious hard shit, but like the smaller day-to-day hard stuff. And I think that we just like we avoid that and we choose cheap dopamine and we just like keep doing that. Um, and then it's just like when's the last time you did something hard, you know, and we we lose that ability to to jump into hard stuff, and I think that like when you can conquer those little tiny demons of things you've been putting off and like actually move it forward, like they start to loosen their grip on it, and then you look at your big maybe bigger to-do list on things you want to tackle, and like they start to become less, less intimidating. And also, like, I I know I said this in my podcast, but like you also have to find the ways that you procrastinate. Like, there's obvious ones like you know, phone addiction or like you know, social media or porn or like gambling or you know, like whatever it is, right? But like for me, like it's like weird stuff too. Like, I will like you, you know, you can see like I've got uh well glucose monitor there, but like I've got like little like scabs and cuts because like I'll literally just like if I gotta do something hard or stressful, I'll just like scan my arm for these little like white heads or ingrown hairs and just like pop pimples on my arm. Like just like I'll lose track of time and I've maybe done that for like 15 minutes. And I know it sounds like super weird, but it's just like just something where it's like this is stressful. I don't know what to do. Oh, I got like 20 minutes. Uh do I do this or this? Uh just pop some pimples, or like I'll go in the mirror and just like pop some blackheads on my nose or go grab a snack or do whatever. Like, and so it's like you have to find the ways in which you creatively procrastinate or avoid hard work and then make that a harder choice. You have to add friction to that. So, like I have this like flannel up here, and it's like even in the summer when it's like a little bit hotter on like our third floor office, I will legit have long sleeves on, so that isn't an option. Yeah, yeah. Like and it's so weird, and I'll reflexively go to do that. I'm like, got long sleeves on, can't, you know, and so you just have to figure out like what's in your environment, how do you procrastinate, how can you add friction there, and how can you add like less resistance to things you actually want to do?

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Um, dude, since since listening to that podcast, I've always used this app Opal on my phone that blocks other apps, and then I got one on my laptop too. I think it's literally called Focus. Yeah, I'm on like a seven-day free trial. I'm gonna buy it. It's spectacular, it's just like so easy to use it. Yeah, I don't pick my arms. It's funny that like your thing was I you have to force yourself to eat lunch. Like cooking is procrastination for me. So I'm like, oh, I gotta do this. Like, how about I go prep pizza dough instead?

SPEAKER_00 57:52

And it's like it's right, you're doing something for your health, it's creative and feeding my pregnant wife, bro.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

That's necessary. Yeah, dude. All right, man. This was this was really helpful. I don't know if this is gonna be helpful at all as a podcast for our listeners, but this was a purely selfish endeavor, just masqueraded as a podcast, because maybe I didn't think that you valued me enough, and I figured that your time was too valuable to just talk to me. So I always love you, man. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

Yeah, I love you too, man. This is this is great. And fun fact, the only time I cried on a podcast was when we did a podcast together.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

All right, well, maybe we'll do uh part three, which will be less selfish and actually ask you questions and maybe make you cry again.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yeah, that's fine. I'm down for that part.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

I'm dude, I'm sure I'll have so many more questions once I have my kid actually is here. It's weird, maybe this is a male thing, but um, I felt this way with Sita too, like zero connection really to the baby in Cordy's stomach. And then Sita was born and I held her, and I was like, oh, this is the most important thing I'll ever do with my life. Just like immediate. So like we had our ultrasound yesterday or two days ago, and you know, Cordy's like sobbing, and I'm just like, oh, that's cool. Like, there's there's the baby, yeah, it's healthy, sweet. But I was like holding Sita and I was just like taking care of her because I was like, this is here. And it's funny, until Sita was born, I was also like, if anything ever happens, and like I could only save Cordy or the baby, like I'll save Cordy, because she can make more babies. Right. But now that Sita's here, I'm like, sorry, babe. Like 100% I'm saving her. So I'm sure it'll be the same thing once baby number two actually gets here. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Yeah, I I definitely think there's probably some like primordial like something baked into, you know, because like even like um like I remember when Rory was uh was a um young baby and I was like struggling to to connect um because it was just like man, like the the crying and all that, and I was just like you know, but once he once he's like actually started to smile, and I was like, oh hey, hey, hey little guy, like we make him laugh and smile, like that just that just cracked me wide open. I mean, like I like the first time I held him and like when I witnessed the birth, like I was just crying. I was like a mess. It was beautiful and incredible. Um, but yeah, like once once that started happening, and so like again, you think about like all the the the the physical bonding and connection like the mom has with the baby, like that's yeah, you know, it's kind of baked in then there's like these feedback like hormones that like you know facilitate that with the baby and with the mom, but like you know, we you know we don't we don't really get that, and so like and when they start to become a little bit more of like a personality or a little like I I can like yeah, you you feel this like overwhelming sense of like connection and stuff, and that just releases all the you know the the feel-good stuff, and yeah, like the connection, the connection thing is actually something I'm worried about potentially with having a boy, and I it's tied into all this.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

Like, I'm currently I'm not doing a good enough job in my entire life right now, just objectively. And to be fair, this is how I felt when we were pregnant with Cita too. I was like, the man that I am right now is not good enough to be the father that I need to be, and so I did a lot of stuff when we were pregnant the first time around to level up in life, and I feel like I did. So right now I I know this is just the next leveling up of that. Um but I worry that it'll be harder for me to connect with the boy because it'll just highlight all of my shortcomings as a man. Whereas for Sita, all I have to do is just be like a safe place for her to connect to, and like that's easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Like it's the same thing for a boy, you know. It's um, you know, we uh yeah, uh it's I mean, like when uh like I always say like he's very squirmy wormy, like he he wasn't the kind of baby where it's like, oh like I'll just chill and lay on you, like and the dude's just like wiggling and squirming, like couldn't really hold on. It's like you know, it's just like oh, I just want to accept my love, I want to squeeze you, I want to. Oh, and like so he was not like a like off the bat, a very affectionate person, but like I'm extremely affectionate and touchy, and and so I was just like showering this baby boy with like kisses and hugs and all that stuff, and like he's now like the most affectionate, touchy, just like you know, craves that kind of stuff and also just like craves that kind of somatic, like you know, high pressure, like we'll wrestle and we'll like you know, like do lots of hard challenging things and like bike really fast up hills and stuff, and like do all that kind of stuff, but like they need that affection and that love and you know, just as much as a girl does, and so you know, I I I feel like it it's it's so important. And you know, the other thing too is like dude, like you are enough, like you're like the the dad you are right now, like you're you're prepared for this next kid, like you don't need to really change anything about you. Like the only thing kids really need is just like to feel safe, to to feel loved, and to feel heard, and like so like you can do that right now, like you know, and so the there's there's really no no one you have to become or anything you have to do or have like optimized for your business or whatever. Like, like it's there's all this stuff we feel like we should be doing, and like I feel like parents a lot of times feel like we're we're dropping the ball on something, like you know, like I want to do this and I should be doing that, and like I could be better at that, but like one of the bet like the best content creators I follow on, like parenting and stuff like it's just like you know, like if you if you lose your shit or if you like you know get irritated and you raise your voice or you do something that you wish you wouldn't have done or like you know you could have done better, you just repair it, you know what I mean? And it's like the the stuff that where like um you know I were like, oh, do I have this tendency of like yelling like my dad used to yell at me and like oh like I don't want to become like this? And it's like the self-awareness of it is one, but then just like admitting when you're wrong and like no strings attached, like hey buddy, sorry I yelled, but you were really doing this and this and that, and it's like no, like just be like yo, hey buddy, yeah, I'm sorry I yelled. That wasn't cool. I'll try and do better. No, like and because you did this, this, and this, right? And when you do that and you reconnect, right? And and like that that like we're all just human, you know what I mean? And so like you're never gonna be perfect, you're never gonna be like the like you the hit these 10 check boxes before the baby's born, and then you're great. Like, it's just do you just do your best? And like people can tell when you do your best and when you're when you're half-assing it. That's that's kids are smart.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

That is factual. Alright, man. Thank you for all this all this wisdom. I appreciate you, buddy. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah, man, this is fun. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

So now you know a little bit of uh the kind of shit that I struggle with on a daily basis, and a little bit of how that's affecting me. Um, if you're someone in our program, you basically know this process. Like you followed us on Instagram, and I talked to you, and you got on a call with me and probably cried or bared your soul to a complete stranger for an hour and then signed up, and now hopefully your life has improved dramatically. And yet uh for a variety of reasons that is the thing that I struggle to do the most, even though as I told Clayton, I think once we were once we'd already hit stop, um I literally pray every day for God to use us as an instrument of his will here on earth to touch the lives of other people. And I'm grateful to be in a position to be empowered to help other people on that path, and so I know that uh me avoiding that is literally an affront to God, and it's like asking God for rain if you're a farmer and God sends rain and then you're sitting there not tilling your soil. So I know I've been fucking up in a few ways on that front. So if you're waiting to hear back from me on Instagram, this is why, and I apologize, and I am trying to do better. So hope you enjoy this little sneak peek into the chaos inside my own fucking brain, and hopefully you learned a little bit about ADHD, and maybe it helps you. Um hearing Clayton's episode on on his podcast was the catalyst for me to reach out to a psychiatrist and pursue potentially being diagnosed with ADHD and potentially being medicated for it and testing this out. So maybe this does something similar to you, and uh, I guess I'll report back with the results after that actually happens. So, as always, thank you very much for being here. I appreciate each and every one of you that listens to this. Uh, I'll see you on the next episode for more actual conversations about PTSD and plant medicine. So until next time, thank you very much. Peace out. God bless you.