The FinTech Report

The FinTech Report Podcast: Episode 65: Perpetual Corporate Trust: Investing in domestic & global fixed income

• Glen

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Award winning Perpetual SaaS platform offers direct investment in domestic and global bonds 

 

Perpetual Corporate Trust or PCT won “BEST INVESTMENT PLATFORM/APP” at the recent 10th Annual FinTech & Banking Awards 2025. 

In this episode, we explore what makes their service so unique, and how they have used technology to deliver an end-to-end service from price discovery, trading, settlement and fund administration.

Perpetual Corporate Trust (PCT) is a leading fiduciary, custody and digital business operating in Australia and Singapore with five business divisions offering a unique range of products and services. PCT is part of the ASX-listed Perpetual Group (ASX:PPT). 

Their platform is Australia’s first end-to-end SaaS platform designed specifically to simplify fixed income investing. They enable wealth managers to access global bonds via Euroclear (a market work over $100 Trillion) in parcels as low as $10,000. They integrate research, portfolio construction, execution, settlement, custody, and reporting in one platform – their service is now used by NAB Private Wealth and JBWere.

Since launching 2 years ago they have facilitated over $6 billion in transactions and onboarded 5,300+ investors.

Our podcast guests are: Emily Boden and Heather Gale. Emily is Head of Institutional Sales at Perpetual Digital. Heather is Head of Operations, Procurement & Cash Management.

 

Key Points:

The platform allows private wealth clients to directly invest in bonds – both domestic and global

Clients don’t have to invest in ETF’s or multi-asset funds to get fixed income exposure to their portfolios

It is a digital solution wrapping up all components needed to invest in fixed income; 

·       from price discovery on liquid bonds

·       trade order and execution

·       settlement

·       custody

·       registry 

·       all middle office administration

·       Trades are executed and settled via Euroclear

 

Key benefits: allows for parcel sizes to be much smaller then traditional $500k clips. Clients can move into positions, and out of positions if they require in parcel sizes as small as $10k. Smaller parcel sizes allow clients can have a more divers & less risky portfolio. The entire workflow of the solution sits within the same organisation; 

 

Customers: Institutional business who have high Net wealth clients that would like to invest in fixed income directly 

Institutional Private Wealth  divisions 

·       NAB private wealth and 

·       JBWere Shaw 

·       Advisories firms

·       Shaw & Partners

·       Boutique funds

·       Gramacey

·       Clime Investment

 

Please contact Glen Frost on glen "at" famfi.com.au for podcast queries

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Hello and welcome to the FinTech Report podcast. My name's Glen Frost. I'm your host, and today I am delighted to welcome Perpetual Corporate Trust as our guests. Perpetual Corporate Trust is a leading fiduciary custody and digital business operating in Australia and Singapore, with five business divisions offering a unique range of products and services. PCT is part of the A SX listed. Perpetual group Digital and perpetual CT markets is the innovation arm of PCT and where the fixed income intelligence SaaS solution sets. This division is a professional service business delivering SaaS products and data services. Its mission is to enable client success through the next generation software and service excellence. My guests today are Emily Boden and Heather Gale. Emily is head of institutional sales at Perpetual Digital. She's worked on the sell side within fixed income global markets for over 20 years, including primary and secondary bond and credit issuance, derivatives, and cash products. Heather is head of markets and operations, has over 20 years experience leading strategic funding capital and investment activities as CFO, treasurer and head of products positions. Heather and Emily, welcome. Thank you very much for being our guest.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Thank you for having us.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Thank you.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Okay, let's really start off with some. Some real basics. We're gonna be talking a few acronyms, I think in the podcast for the next 30 minutes. I mentioned their fixed income. I mentioned that you're running a SaaS platform. Let's start off with, for those perhaps outside of fixed income, explain what those products are.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Okay, so fixed income is generally bonds. You can have a mix of bonds, you can have government bonds and semi-government bonds. They're all rated. You have a mix of corporate bonds, corporate bonds can be, rated and unrated. So we classify them as the ones that aren't rated junk bonds. And then we also do. Cash products. So with the cash products, you've got your NCDs, and your certificates Yes. and then term deposits. And everyone's aware of what term deposits are. So they're the two products that we deal with at perpetual markets.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Excellent. And when we talk about SaaS, what do we mean by that?

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah, look what we mean by that is, us providing the infrastructure for businesses to be able to, perform and service their clients. So we are in the business of providing, solutions, providing the technology, in a way that's easy for businesses to access and maintain. Gone are the days of on-premises, systems and maintenance and, dealing with the upgrades. Really, we're here to make it easy. It's how do you log on, service your clients and access the markets you need to get into.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Excellent. So what we're talking about is a sort of cloud-based platform where your customers can, anywhere, anytime by. Your products. Yeah. So let's talk about, who your customers are. What would be a typical client for you guys?

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah, look, I think our clients, perpetual Corporate Trust is, basically a business to business sort of business. We're here to provide infrastructure to the market. Largely our clients are, wealth firms. They are advisor groups and things of that nature. So we're not generally direct to client. So we are here to help those sort of groups writing advice to their clients to get access to a market. They've traditionally, struggled to get direct access

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

That's a very interesting point because I think part of the value proposition, if you like, of SaaS businesses, digital businesses, and FinTech blended with financial services, institutions that have got storied histories and access to very large deal sizes and product sizes is that you can. Bring down the cost of entry. You can fractionalize things, right? Can you talk us through exactly what it is that is the unique proposition?

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah, absolutely. So look, Australia generally, if you look. Globally has been underweight in fixed income and there's some structural property challenges to that. One of those is how, under the Corporations Act, minimum sizes of wholesale investors being 500,000. And, to accommodate that, things like Ostra Clear have had minimum sizes of that amount to ensure that was met.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

And when we are talking minimum size, we're talking per

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Per So you're looking at 500,000 and even if you are a very, high net worth. Individual or investor, that can be a hurdle. It's a large position to take in any one bond. Where we've found the difference has been is that we've, partnered with Euroclear, for this clearing and settlement services you have access to pretty much 99% of bonds that are issued in Australia. However, Ulee don't impose those large minimum values. And in fact, they'll let you invest down to the minimum in the transaction documents, which for many bonds can be as little as$10,000. In Australia you still need to be a wholesaler sophisticated investor to buy that sort of product. But the barrier to entry in terms of the product value is greatly reduced. And we found huge uptick in demand because of that.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

And so what that does is that, that actually for the individual, they can invest in more names. More, industries. So the risk of their portfolio reduces significantly? because they can have exposure to many more bonds rather than just the one or the two bonds.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

So what we're talking about here is perhaps sector specific risks. Are we talking foreign exchange risks? Currency

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

risks? Yes, because we do multicurrency. We see us, GDP Euro, we got asked to do Portugal this week. Basically we can do whatever Euroclear trade in, and we looked at that. That was well over a hundred currencies. Yep. And we can absolutely facilitate that. So with that, again, so you've got currency industries names specific. And instead of going, okay, I've got a million dollars and I can only buy two lines, I've got a million dollars and you can buy. 20 lines.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Got it. Heather, you mentioned it might be high net worth or ultra net worth, and that is a big category of investor, in this country. But it might also be, a local state government. It might be federal government, it might be, SX corporations, it might be private sector corporations. What kind of, blend of organizations are the end user. So behind the, some of the big names that you might have. Trading as your customers, who are the end user customer.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah. Look, certainly all the ones that you've mentioned there. But also there's a lot of family trusts, self-managed super, so larger family trusts, self-managed super, to be classified as a sophisticated investor. The barriers to that aren't terribly high. If you've got a. A self-managed super of a reasonable value could well qualify. So we certainly see a lot of that sort of in that space. Family trust, self-managed super, and access to that diversity is important, in that sector. So that's certainly what we're seeing. This product is really specifically caters for some of the larger ones. some of the larger councils or institutional investors already have access'cause they're buying big lines of stock, so this isn't so much of a barrier for them. But it's when you take that next level down that people aren't looking for options other than investing in a fund. And this does give them this direct access.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Cool. Let's look at, the genesis of where all this started. What made Perpetual corporate trust move into software? The service and in particular, into bonds.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah perpetual Corporate Trust, acquired a business called Laminar Capital in, 2021, I think it was about three or four years ago now. Laminar Capital was a specialist sort of middle market, fixed income, advisory and brokering firm, and also had some proprietary software that they'd developed, to manage those portfolios, both for their own business and for their clients. Perpetual Corporate Trust acquired that business with a view to it was a good fit to their traditional custodian business. PCT is where. not, probably is the largest custodian of real assets in Australia. And really has a goal to be the leading, custodian of unlisted assets in Australia. So the acquisition of that business and the ability to partner that technology with the custody business was a big game changer. And there's people out there doing either, either a SaaS or a custody product. But to pull the two together to have that end to end, was a key differentiator. So that was the genesis of it about three or four years ago now, and it's, gone extremely well.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Yes. Well, tell us, you've been going for a couple of years. Tell us what kind of volumes are going through the platform and what your ramp up of customer numbers has been.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

look, it is a, as somewhat of a slow burn in terms of customer numbers. It is a step change for a lot of businesses around, do they invest directly in fixed income versus in a fund. So it's taken some time to Work with advisor firms and, get out there and spread the word around what this can look like.'cause it is different to the current method of investing. So that's, taken a little while. We do have some large, cornerstone customers in the service. And certainly the performance and flows they've seen from their underlying customers has far outstripped their expectations. So probably our largest customer is growing at. In the region of month, on month at 5% a month, which, and that's over probably two or three years now, which is, exponentially huger than they expected. And what we expected, and I think it's just a testament to, the attractiveness in particular of the different names in the portfolio. I think a lot of the underlying customers like the idea of. Investing directly in a Commonwealth Bank or in a Microsoft or Adele in terms of a bond. So it's really changed the landscape in terms of that access and obviously interest rate environment is useful in that regard.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Yes. Excellent. do you have rough numbers on, how many people you've got On the platform in total? what's your kind of, whether there's assets under management, whether sales if

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

you

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Yeah. So we have a mix of the institutional private wealth divisions and they're like the nabs and the JB Wars. And then we have the advisory firms. They're the larger advisory firms like likes of shores. And then, we're also talking to a few. Boutique firms like the likes of Climb. And Heather said, it's growing exponentially. But I do think it's also the background of fixed income in Australia, like generally. Previously we are the first in market that actually has the entire workflow under one roof. We can. Invest directly into a bond to get fixed, income exposure into your portfolio. Whereas five years ago, you had to go via an ETF or a multi-asset fund. Or you had to invest in the 500 K clicks, which is not realistic. look, the flows that we are seeing through the platform now, the team, they're managing, around$10 billion, in transaction flow with about two and a half thousand transactions per week going through the platform. And like Heather said, we're two years in, I think two and a half years. we're still setting it up, engaging with the clients. We are right at the forefront of it doing releases, product releases, and still building the platform and listening to the clients and getting told, what should we do? How can we build this better and make it more efficient? basically how it works is, the clients or the advise'cause it's a B2B. Yes. So it's, yeah. So it's the advisor. the underlying client or the holder of the bond. They're not the ones that are actually engaging with us. We're engaging with the advisors and they'll have a list of the liquid bonds they might have an approved product list that their institution has said, look, we're comfortable with you going out and selling these If their client says, yeah, okay, I would like to buy X amount of this, they'll just pop it into the platform. And that's what they'll see. we take care of the rest of it so we can do the execution. Then we do the pairing and the settlements of the trade. We do all the trade confirmations, the coupons, we do all the valuations, and all of this is sent out to the underlying holders. Of the bond, the advisors can get hold of these as well. And then, your team does all the Coupon payments. They do any corporate actions on the bonds.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah, and I think that's one of the benefits of being within, PCT as well. As corporate trust managers, pretty much. 95% of all r and BS in Australia. we have a large payments team, for instance, that deals with tens of thousands of payments a day for multiple billion dollars. So we've got, about 40 or so onshore staff that deal with payments. We've got operations teams on shore, so it's one the key differentiators as well This is a extension to what we do as corporate trust. But we are well versed in this space with those relationships in place. So it's certainly not starting from nothing in regard to that. I think that combined with the technology has provided that backbone to the service and the feedback we have been getting as well is, certainly a differentiator around service. The element of, diligence from the middle office team is certainly, a differentiator, especially as compared to some of the global custodians. And it's not to knock the global custodians out there, largely they're equities houses. Our focus within corporate trust is not equities. It's pretty much unlisted. How do you deal with OTC? What does that look like? It's not just the churn of it all comes in, it rolls through as an inequities house. So we think that's a big differentiator

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

and the team sits together as well. We're all on the same time zone, like we're all highly specialized. It's a small team, but very experienced.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Lovely. Given the complexity involved in putting the product together, both from a. Sort of logistics, point of view, payments, custodian custodianship. How did you put together your business model and I guess look, and as you say, it's early days it's you're two years in. Can you give us a rough idea of how you charge customers for the service? And look, I understand there's commercial in confidence. but if you could just go through your thinking or the model that you have, that would be great.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

So we charge, our customers a fee based, on funds under management. So it'd be a basis point fee based on funds under management. And there's also direct pass of costs. We don't make any margin on that, but any bank costs and. Bank fees, that is a direct pass through. So it's a margin on funds under management. However, what we find most of our clients do is that we are able to assist them in passing through custody fees to their clients. We might charge, say, 12, 15 basis points on funds under management in terms of the fee. It's up to our client to decide whether they would like to charge their underlying client a custody

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Got it.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

So they might say I'm gonna charge that client 20 basis points, as a custody fee, and we'll facilitate that as part of our service offering to, deduct that fee from the client's coupon payment. Report that all to them, provide them statements disclosures and remit that to our business clients. So we find for a lot of clients, there's not much free in the world, but it should be a recoupable fee depending on their fee arrangement with their client. if we are charging 15 basis points, they might charge their client 20. So in fact, they might come out. Ahead in that scenario.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Yeah. No, I like that. It gives your customers huge amount of flexibility to set pricing structures for their customers, correct. The sort of end holder of the product. Yeah. Now that's really interesting. Let's talk about, the team size. You mentioned there was certain number of people in payments, and you're all based Australia. Tell us how big this entity is.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah, absolutely. So the payments team themselves has about 50 people in the cash management team, all based in Australia. that's the pure payments part. The middle office team, has about, 10 people and that's, more of a, A mix of client facing and administration, so you're more complex dealing with corporate actions and things of that nature. We then have our development team of perpetual digital. I'm not

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

So yeah, we've got that team.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

that team.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

So we've got a head of product and then there are four people underneath him. We've got an execution team for, if you want to utilize that. There's six people part of that team. And then a sales team. we are, all spread out across, victoria, Sydney and Queensland, I should say New South Wales, not Sydney. Yeah. But then it, there's a broader team in PCT that support us as well. So we've got a digital team, which looks after the infrastructure.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

a hundred or so people in that team.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Yeah. We've got legal marketing, compliance and risk that all lean in. So it's I think in total there's 350 people that work within PCT. And then that's across sort of three or four different arms. And we are one of those arms, but then you've got the service teams that support us as well.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Lovely. I'm keen to pick up on something you mentioned earlier that, I think you spoke about this idea that there might be an appetite from customers for, let's say a Microsoft Bond or an Apple bond or something else. And obviously those big tech stocks have done very well, but there's been a growing, usage of corporate bonds, and particularly I think as some have. And certainly in the past year been using bonds to raise money to invest in AI and do all those sorts of amazing things that are gonna change, FinTech and finance in, in ways we don't even understand at the moment. I was just wondering whether you have a view on. Whether, there are, there's a sort of surge amongst, Australian investors for the American Tech bonds. Or whether there is, like you also mentioned there was, you had conversations about whether you would bring on, Portuguese bonds. So what's your thinking about who, where, when, and why around the

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

the world? Look, I just think generally Australians, moms and dads are hugely under invested in fixed income directly, like everywhere else in the world like we spoke about. They do that rule. 40 property, like Yeah. Yeah. 40 equities split of your portfolio. 40 fixed income and 10% cash. Yeah. Australian that it is getting bigger. I think it's between five and 8%. So there's a growth there to change that. So I just think generally it's where it's liquidity's. The problem for bond in Australia, it's ev, all these issuances, they come out the primary issuances and you wanna get your hands on it, and they're like three. like the names that you were talking about earlier, five times Oversubscribed. Yeah. So it's more, I just think it's when people are issuing it that you just get your hands on whatever you can. That if it's rated, and the advisors are talking to you about it and it's a reputable. Advisor, they've got a list behind that they're allowed to talk to you about. that's what I think driving it is. It's the names is the liquidity and it's just, there's cash out there.'cause we're seeing it like in, and then I guess as well, we've got in Australia, the roll off of the hybrids, there's, 40 plus billion dollars out there that is going to roll off and is. Going and a majority of it's mom and dad's money. And it's going to be looking for a home. And I would say a bulk of that is going to go into fixed income. And you could go direct or you go into a fund or an ETF, and even if you get 20% of that into, direct, which I think you'll probably get more. That's, where are we getting the liquidity from?

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

That's the 8 billion if you say there's 40. that's a nice little revenue stream.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Yeah.

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

And I think to an extent the appetite for is somewhat untested because of the various APLs that advisor groups have in place. It tends to be the approved product lists, not entirely, but often are quite, Conservative, in terms of what they're showing their customers. So I think it's as to what the appetite would be with a broader list. It's somewhat harder to know, I think to an extent, at the moment we're seeing, people may be considering some of these bonds as a substitute for term deposits. If you're buying a CBA term deposit versus a CBA bond. There's a high degree of familiarity with the name and what that looks like. Australia has a massive love affair with equity. And I think that the move from a mix of a Microsoft Equity and a Microsoft Bond, I think the market's still moving to that. I definitely think opportunity there and especially when those sort of minimums are more accessible, I think we'll see it come into more and more of the conversations from the advisors and their clients. Whereas previously it wouldn't have been a conversation, Let alone the minimum. So now if you've got options around, you've got Euroclear, lower minimums, access to international markets, the opportunities to invest in those names will become accessible when that's, I think, has the ability to change things.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

That's interesting. So when we talk about your future vision of Perpetual Corporate Trust, A significant pillar of that has to be ongoing education. Getting out there and really working with, your corporate partners, advisors on what the products are, why. How and how to sell them onto their customers. Yeah. And what kind of things do you do? Do you, is that events, is it face-to-face activity? What's your sort of action plan there?

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah. Look, it's a bit of a combination. We started to be more involved in industry groups, conferences, getting out there, talking to people, managed funds well, funds generally are easy, ETFs are easy. And this is different. So it's about us getting out there and talking about it, how it might work, and really just that the conversations wherever we can.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Yeah. the product is simple. Like we keep it simple. there's a list of bonds that are liquid today that you can talk to your client about. And if you're ready to execute, you just, yep. This is the volume that we want in it. We go out to market, we get it, we settle it in the client's name and we do all the administrative. In the back of it.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

And when you talk about liquidity, that's obviously buy and sell.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

Yeah. So with bonds, it's not an exchange platform where you can go on and you can see what you can buy on the day,

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

market price

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

sure. We can say there's Microsoft Bond out there, there's Dell, but there may be no one, there might be. No bonds out there to buy. Yes. And there might not be for months on end, right? So you don't wanna talk to clients about buying something that's not there. So what we do is we scrape rate sheets from price makers, from the banks that have the bonds available on the day. And so that that you're talking to. Your client about what is actually out there and these are the real prices. Got it. And we give you the pricing that we are seeing from the trading floor as well, so the prices are more accurate.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

would you also be a quote market maker

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

No. No.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

So you are not trading?

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

We don't have a trading book. so how the market works in bonds is that you've got your traders who make the prices and they're the sellers. And then you've got the buyers on the other side. the traders are always the ones that make the price on the day. it's about, how easy is the stock to get what the rating is. How often you can actually buy the stock. So Gove's, like they're often trading, but a, a Microsoft or a Dell or something like that, a lot harder to get. So you would think that the margins on that are a little bit wider. And also it's on what the return is, the coupon payments as well. They vary between the different ratings. So the AEs are less risky, so obviously not going to get as high a return on that, whereas the Triple Bs are slightly, a little bit more risky. With a lot more attractive margin.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Now look, I segued into talking about, what the future is, and you mentioned. Part of it was working with people to sell the idea of investing in bonds, whether they're corporate government or whatever. Is that how you see the platform? Is it more people investing more of their portfolios more often in more bonds from more countries in more currencies around the world?

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah, Absolutely. I think there's huge growth opportunity there and it's an under service market. So it's absolutely where we see it being, our goal, to the point earlier around trading is, we are here. Our primary goal is to be custodian. We wanna be here, we wanna provide this infrastructure and customer service to the market. And we think that the entire market benefits from a healthy market. So the more people we can have here, the more people that are trading, the more, this is an asset class. People are looking to buy. We think everyone wins. And that's really what we are here to do is how do we make this a market wins in

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

an accessible market to the moms and dads.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

And is there any sort of bond that you won't touch?

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

We've got some loan products, don't we?

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Anything that's listed, Oncle or Ucle we will deal with. That's not to say that there's absolutely different risk profiles of those and there's, all sorts of, especially when you go offshore, all sorts of things. We are not here to provide advice on the risk or otherwise of those bonds. But there certainly is risk that needs to be taken into account. if you're an advisor, just because it's on there doesn't mean everything's created equally. But we can facilitate it. What's probably next for us as well as a business is looking at how we can service the alt space more and alternative assets. Some of them are quite fixed income, like in terms of private loans and things of that nature. And that's where we see the natural extension being an unlisted custodian.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

That's interesting

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

Yeah. And it is under service.'cause to my earlier point around the global custodians loving equity. So they love anything that goes through a sausage factory of where it looks the same, albeit with corporate actions that might be different, but it generally behaves in a similar way. So alts aren't, not their strong point and probably not where they wanna play. And we think there's an absolute opportunity for us to explore that in partnership with the Australian market, to see where we can be of service, and of use, and that's early thinking for us. But we are absolutely keen to engage and go where, what do people need in the old space? Where could corporate trust play a role and how could some of the things that we have done really well in the fixed income space translate into there? So I think that's another key area where we don't, I think it's early days, but absolutely a strategy and growth area for.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

That's very interesting. Look, that's a kind of great thing to say, let's come back in another

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

see where we're at.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

are at

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

at.

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

let's just get the platform

ZOOM0093_Tr3:

We were talking about it from a strategy point the other day, and it is so complex'cause it's from a private loan down to a racehorse how do you facilitate that? How do you administer it? What does it look like? There's obviously. Great appetite for the Australian market in terms of investing in alternative asset classes. And it needs to be supported.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

True. And I think, digital and FinTech, is something that is now enables this to be done. Whereas I think previously it was you needed certain volumes, you just, because it was the process was often so manual. So I think that the digital world allows people to take these Fascinating to hear this story. Look as a sort of final question, do you want to shout out, how people can get in touch with you, whether it's LinkedIn, the website, or whatever as a, whether they, whether you've got, have you got any jobs

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

But have a website. You can reach out to us. I'm head of sales, so you can reach out directly to myself, to Emily. All my details are on the perpetual, corporate trust, but it's just Emily. Dot Boden, B-O-D-E-N, at perpetual.com. Lovely au.

ZOOM0093_Tr2:

Excellent. thank you very much, for taking the time to talk to us and congratulations again. You guys won best investment platform, at the recent, FinTech and banking awards, 2025. And, that's where we met. it was great to see you guys, showcasing your innovation and being prepared to stand up and enter into the award. firstly, thank you very much for your time. And secondly, congratulations on

ZOOM0093_Tr1:

being award. Thank you. Thanks. It's great to be recognized, isn't it?

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Glen Frost

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