(6.03) Leading through Consciousness: Seeing Things 'As They Are'.

If you are a 'dyed-in-the-wool' rationalist, you may not enjoy this episode. However, if every now and again you find yourself asking, "I wonder if there is truth and knowledge beyond what I see and hear - maybe even outside the 'accepted' boundaries I was taught?" then continue!

KG and Paul  are enthralled by a most unexpected conversation with Marti Spiegelman, a teacher and practitioner of 'Indigenous Technologies' or, as she herself sometimes refers to them, 'Original Wisdom'. 

Join us for the conversation where Marti takes our intrepid hosts through a journey of deep insight and roguish assertions. Is it possible to be in the world - in relationships, in leadership - in ways that are totally counter to those we have been exercised all our life?  

And thank goodness for Annandale Cellars! In fact, we aren't sure if Paul would've made it through the episode without the generosity of our great friends at Annandale Cellars. On this occasion we crack open a 2025 Mada Wines Blanc, from the Australian Canberra region.  It is a fresh, bright blend of Pinot Gris, Riesling and Gewurztraminer. Tropical notes on the nose and zesty freshness on the tongue. A wonderfully refreshing wine.

Get at least half a dozen of these (or half a dozen of any of Annadale Cellars' amazing wines) and get a 20% discount by using our code at checkout: DECANTED

Sláinte friends! Great to see you again!!

Useful resources from this episode:

1. The Foundations of Precision Consciousness
2. Shaman's Light

As always, we're keen to hear what you thought of this conversation. Please let us know through either of the options below.

Please reach out on askus@leadershipdecanted.com or visit us at www.leadershipdecanted.com

Or leave us a text/voice message via the link at the top of these show notes!

Disagree or agree with anything we've said? How wrong are we?!? Are there any leadership topics you'd like us to discuss (or perhaps other books or podcasts that might set us straight!)? Maybe you'd like to recommend a favourite wine!

Whatever tickles your fancy, we'd love to hear from you!!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

That experience of membership is what most people are missing.

SPEAKER_03 0:03

We don't think about all those details, but they're all true. She hooked me with a science.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

She blended me with science. Is it the song? Welcome to Leadership Decandid, where we engage with the latest thinking on all things leadership, and we keep the conversation going over a nice bottle of wine. KG.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Oh, what is happening, man?

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Oh, here I am. Here I am. After some time traveling. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

And for those not time traveling, but some time traveling, yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

No, actually, no, no. Yes, there is some time travelling. Because there is the crossing of the international thing.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Ah, as we have to be.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

So technically speaking, I time traveled into the past. And I'll tell you what, it was just like the future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Same chaos. No change. But welcome back. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

And if anyone who's listened to our cheeky halves, they would have, I guess, caught up or followed some of the interesting adventures that they had. But we won't go back into that. We'll just we'll just refer people to our cheeky halves.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Go listen. It was a great adventure, uh great topic for Cheeky Half. But now we continue forward with some are continuing. Amazing, amazing things. A great guest. Great guest. International guest, I will say. I know every now and again, and we've said this before, haven't we?

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Every now and then, the the universe just gives us someone just unexpectedly.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

And on this occasion, it's a wonderful international guest who has made time for us, even though they're here just fleetingly. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

So we just capture them. Here we are.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

And I'm very excited. Yes, very excited. And and along with a fantastic guest, we have a surprise one as well as. Well, I'm a surprise wine. You know, I always say it's going to be a wonderful one because you know, it it always is good. They do such great work at Annandale Cellars.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Yeah, you know that saying that past performance is no indicator of future success.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Well, I think Anandale Sellers and Chris himself has really swung against that current.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

This is good. This is good. I wish my financial advisor would do the same or the stocks that I yeah, I think the stakes are different right there, KG.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

The stakes are different. But in the case of the wine, I agree. I think I have no idea what this wine is. Chris and Annandale Sellers have kindly provided it to us.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Yes, curated.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Curated, beautiful word, beautiful word. And hanging out to see what it is.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Cannot wait. Shall we? Yeah. Already? I mean, we usually do a lot of here and there, and but let's just go right into it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Okay. All right. Well, look, what we have today is an Australian wine. Okay. There was a choice of Australian and non-Australian wine, but because our guest is an international guest, I thought, let's let's try. Yeah, yeah. Let's give them an Australian wine.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

The oi, oi, oi, Aussie version. That's the one. Isn't it Aussie, Aussie, Aussie? I'm American. I don't get these things right still.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

Don't play that card with me. I know. Now, we have a white wine today. A white wine. Today's been a kind of a nice mild to warm day. I think this would be a really nice, refreshing wine. It is a Mada White Wine, 2025 blend. Okay. Pinot Gris, Gerwitz Tremana, and Riesling.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Wow. Another blend. Another blend.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

It's an interesting one. You know, a Gerwitz Tremoner Riesling. And so it's an aromatic. So it often has this kind of really nice notes on the nose. Gerwitz Tremana, often slightly more on the residually sweeter side, but not necessarily. It is often quite floral, jasmine, that type of on the nose. Okay. Very tasty.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

I'll be looking for those. I'll be looking for every one of them.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

Is in the blend, I have to admit. But Pinot Gris, Bit Minerally, Gerwitz Tremona, that sort of floral, maybe even a little bit more body. And then the Riesling. So maybe a bit more citrus, a bit more acid. So it might be a really good, really good blend. It is handcrafted from small parcels. Okay. And I know that because that's what the label says.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

But I also know that your own research, but we believe them.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

I also know that this Mada one, it's M A D A, founded in 2016 in the Canberra region of New South Wales, around Ginderby and Tumbarumba, that area. So it's a cold climate. The parcels of grapes themselves are not necessarily from there. They might be from hilltops.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

So uh also New South Wales. But what I would expect, what do I expect from this wine? I expect just refreshing acidity, minerality, slightly bigger on the nose because of the GERTs.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

I don't know. Oh well, we'll we'll give it a try. Shall we? See if it meets all of your expectations.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

Which, you know, it'll meet my expectations. It just may not meet meet my tasting notes. Okay, let's see. All right, so it's a still or screw cap. Yes. Which does help with the performance anxiety of pulling a cork out.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

You don't have to worry.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Still sounds nice. Very nice.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

Still sounds good?

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Yeah, yeah. All right. Especially for a white, kind of a summary that that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

So I mean it's never, it's never the wrong time. I mean, people say white wine summer, you know, red wine winter, but really, it's just what you feel like at any point in time. Yes. One for you, two for me. All right, here we go. Let me just pass this around.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

So they have a bit of a sniff, as they say, in the industry. I'm not sure they say industry. I'm not saying it right now.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Which industry exactly?

SPEAKER_04 6:16

That smells like white wine.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Oh, yes. Now you're given descriptions like I do. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

What I mean by that, you stole my line. There's no tannin, yeah, doesn't have that woody texture. No, no. I think these are all very much steel vats, so there's no oak or no wood.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

No, you're getting all that just from smelling. Wow. Yeah. I'm amazed.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Well, I think I may, maybe, maybe it was on the label too. I can't remember. Just skip that. But I'm guessing that, you know, that kind of blend. It's very unusual to have all of that blend, particularly the goats in wood.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

In wood. It would be in a big bat.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

But I'm getting a little bit of that floral note and everything. A bit of tropical. Yeah, it's in there. It's in there.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Maybe a bit of um, I would say uh guava. It sounds weird, I know. Yeah, yeah. But I'm getting that.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

Yeah. Our guest also agrees. Guava. Wow. Uh guest, what else are you getting on the nose?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

I'm trying to I'm trying to not just keep laughing here. But being a California person, the whole The guava was a very good catch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 7:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

So you know your wand.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

It's beautiful, and you can tell it's uh steel vats and not oak. Which is a relief. We get tired of overly oaked chardonnays. Yes. So this is quite a pleasure. Yeah. Excellent. All right. Well, yeah. It feels like spring. It's very light and open. It's really nice. I know.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

I love it when people know they're wandering. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Oh, I'm faking it like you guys are.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

That's the story of my age.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

It would be cool. I know. Look like you know what you're doing. Cheers. Cheers. It's very nice.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Nice body. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Yes, I'm really liking this.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

Yeah, because I know that you don't like sweet. And I could see your face freaking out when I said Gerwards is usually a little bit on the sweet. I was like, oh, this is a good thing. I think the Riesling's really pulling that back. Yeah. It's giving us a little bit more structure. And I can feel kind of it's it's kind of a bit linear when we say that. You can feel it all the way through through the palate. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

It's keeping me satisfied for a longer period of time.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

It's a nice blend. Pin agree, Gilwood Streminer, and what was the other one? Riesling.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Riesling, yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

2025, Matterwines. Mata, Mata. M-A-D-A. Thanks to Yes, Annandale Sellers. Oh, we love you, Annandale Sellers.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

And for those who may not know this, because I know we've got some new listeners every once in a while.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

We do.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

If you go to me any once in a while. All the time. Yes, I know.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

We're huge now.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Joe Rogan, we're coming for you.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Especially after this one. Exactly.

unknown 9:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

This is going to be the tipping point. This is it. Well, uh, for those of you who do not know, if you go to Annandale Sellers website and order wine and use our discount code, which is decanted. D-E-C-A-N-T-E-D. That's right. You get 20% off. I know. I know 20%. Can you believe that? I know. It's amazing. It's amazing. So please go to the website, make your order, but use the discount code. That's right. Enjoy the 20%. Get an extra wine or so. Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

Amazing wines. Amazing curation of wines. I've made it a bit of a habit just to go to their website and just look and dream. Yeah, yeah. And dream. Yeah, I try. Because every now and again, I've got too much wine already. Yeah, yeah. Which I've mostly bought from them.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

But now you do some window shopping as well. I try to do some window shopping.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

So, listeners, please. Anondal sellers, that's A-C-E-L-L-A-RS.com.au. And if you do want to use the discount code, you do have to buy a minimum of six. Yeah. But six is, I mean, it's half a dozen. Really? Come on.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yes. You'll want at least six. There's no way to take them one last.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

This is great. I love this wine. Matter wines 2025 blend of Pinegris, Gilbert's Tremor, and Riesling.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

And Riesling. Okay. Yes. Got them now. Slauncher.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Slauncher. Now, KG.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yes, Paul. This is what we've been waiting for. All the preliminaries. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

This is what it does.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

This is what happens when you go away.

unknown 10:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Come back. You know, I'm not match fit.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Yeah, I know. You haven't, you know, had enough wine. Now you're getting back into the I had to tell you, I had a lot of tequila, though. Did you? I did, but that's a different conversation. It is a different conversation. And for those of you who have not listened to the Cheeky Hap, you may guess.

SPEAKER_04 11:10

Please go.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Where that's right.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

Where did I go? Where did I go to drink tequila? Just maybe. Now, mind you, that's not all I did. Oh, okay. But it's still another conversation.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

We will keep that going.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

But today's conversation, I'm really excited. I want to introduce you and our listeners. Yes. To Marty Spiegelman.

unknown 11:32

Marty. Marty. Marty.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

Welcome, Marty. Thank you. Welcome so much. And I know that your schedule is really tight. Yes. We only just met maybe a week ago.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Yeah. Online. But thank you so much for making the time to be with us and have this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

My pleasure. My pleasure. I will always sit and meet and talk with people who are interested in the world and who drink beautiful wine and who have good senses of humor. We've got a lot to say. Oh. Excellent. Excellent.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

I have to shout out to our uh mutual friend Josie Gibson for connecting us.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

Thank you, Josie, for doing so. Um, it just felt right from the beginning, really. At least that was my experience.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

I'm not going to push you on yours.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Well, there was silence. There was silence. Yes. When Josie says connect, we say yes, both. Exactly. And she's always right.

SPEAKER_04 12:25

She has been, absolutely. Talk about batting a thousand. Yeah. Absolutely. But look, rather than me trying to explain what you do and who you are and how you spend your days, tell us what is the Marty Spiegelman story? And feel free to start wherever you'd like to start. Yes. Childhood is born. No.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Well, it it turns out that it's relevant, but it depends on how long we're going to talk here. Well, let me start with what I do now, which is kind of I could never have dreamt this up. I have turned out to be an expert in human consciousness. And I'm initiated in indigenous cultures by the elders on three different, four different continents. I lose count. So it's authentic. It's not woo-woo. It's not westernized. I am being asked by the elders who have initiated me to bring original human wisdom. I don't like the word indigenous. I'll come back to that sidebar. My job is to bring original human wisdom about consciousness. I'm putting that in quotes, about uh collectivity, about living together well, about thriving, about getting along, about remembering that complementarities are supposed to come together. You know, we live in this world where everything's separate and and I don't like you because you're not like me. And I always tell people, I want you to imagine what would the universe be like if there were only plus charges, no negative charges, just plus charges.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yeah. All the same. How do I do that?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I mean, you you can't even bring two magnets together, the the light poles of two magnets. This we're this is what the world has ended up like is like you're not like me, so go away. I just want people like me. And so we're increasing the division and we're decreasing our capacity to thrive, literally.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

And we don't even know what it is to connect and care for one another. I mean, it's we're in a really sorry state. And so so my story, I think I I feel like I got plunked onto the planet at some point, and I signed an agreement in the heavens somewhere that said, okay, I'll go, I'll come and do this job. I was born into a very short but illustrious scientific lineage.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

And so I grew up with science, and um, I have a degree in biochemistry from Harvard, not using well, I am using it, but not the way they intended. Okay. I mean, I just I went into science because I didn't know anything else. But my dad was very, very famous, so I found out what it was like to carry a famous name, is not pleasant. So I did a 180, and from Harvard I went to Yale Design School for my graduate work. So I became a graphic designer.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

And that's a switch.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

It was a big switch. It all comes together in the end, and I had a glorious 20-year career as a designer in San Francisco, helped to bring the Macintosh onto the market as a design tool. I did mackerel magazine. I was doing all these really cool things. And then there was a point after 20 years where the economy was uh tanking a bit in the States, and it was very hard to be a designer because we're supposed to use these primitive computers that didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

And I mean one day I I literally got fed up and I quit. That's like one day I went into work. I had no idea I was gonna do this. But there were so many stupid problems that I was facing. I thought, nope, I'm done.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

That was by five o'clock, I was done. Just like just like that. Yeah. And and I divvied up. It took me a three months to close the business, but I gave my staff, I said, you take this client, you take that client, you take that client. And you know, in California, you're you're an American, you know. In California, when you have a midlife crisis, I gave up my corporation. When you have a midlife crisis, you go off and get energy healing in California, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Don't you? In Texas cage. Not energy healing. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Go out to the shooting range in Texas, you know. It's like I I had a friend who was encouraging me to learn how to shoot. I I didn't. I went for energy healing. Okay. And so and so I thought I was just sort of healing myself and and you know, recovering from corporate life and all that. Turns out this a fellow that I went to, he kept saying to me, You should study with me. And I'm going, uh, I'm a designer. So he kept at me, and I finally took a course with him. And somehow I already knew how to do the work that he was teaching. Wow. And so I trained with him, I taught for him, I developed my own program. And uh during this time, I was also really interested in in anthropology and archaeology. So I was studying a whole bunch of stuff. And during this time I got in my regular mailbox, you know, printed on paper, remember that? Um, I got invitations to study with indigenous elders on three different continents.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

Was this a coincidence?

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Total unsolicited. It was we might call it a coincidence, but I think there's larger powers in the universe that dragging me around, do this, do this, do this. Quit, wait.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

All right. So I have so many questions already, Mari. You've only just started.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

But I I'm only halfway through. You might if I interrupt for a moment. Oh, please.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

Energy healing. Can you explain what that is and what it involves?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yes, that's a great question because we bandy that term about all the time, and and really most people don't know what it is. But if we go back in human history, let's go back to the um time of the Egyptians. That's one of the earliest recordings, I think, of this uh capacity that we have as humans. If you injure yourself, let's say you're a slave building a pyramid and a big boulder falls on your forearm and cracks you, cracks your arm into. The healers would come. And first the thing the healer does is to tune into the energy of the earth. You know, earth has a pulse. Yeah. And then there's uh another pulse in the literally in the atmosphere that is resonant with the earth. And there are other pulses, but first and foremost, you tune into that earth energy and to the atmosphere energy. And then if I'm your healer and you've got this busted arm, I'll put my hands on one side of the brake and on the other side of the brake. And through my hands, I will start to feel the earth energy going through your body. That energy wave expresses in the body. And it's a different uh frequency and amplitude in the body, but I have to pick that up because I have to not only heal your arm, I have to weave you back into the earth. And so you can literally feel these energy waves in the body and the bone setters, that was what they were called, they would gently move each part of the of the break, those two parts of bone together until that energy wave was unified again. And then they then they'd split you. Must have been really painful because you're they're going crunch, crunch, crunch until the until they get the energy wave right. But basically, energy healing is tending to the energy that we are. You know, matter, even this table we're sitting at is just energy.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Very dense. But but when we tune into the energy that we are, we tune into the state that we're in as a connected, interconnected part of the whole conscious universe. Okay. If we only look at form, we get separated. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

I'm going to need your guidance through this conversation. Because I can already feel that whether it's my Australianness coming out, you know, the the sense of Australians are not known for embracing these terms. And I'm speaking in huge generalizations, of course.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yes, because I know dozens of exceptions.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

But the exception proves the rule. Yes. In that you said very early on, this is not woo-woo. Right. How do you explain what you've just said to someone who feels it might be woo-woo who might be a bit skeptical? Because I wanna I wanna really kind of embrace what you're saying because it feels like it's a new way of being, a new way of knowing. And we'll I think we'll get to other sort of uh original wisdom conversation. I think that's a really interesting placeholder. But to begin with, so that maybe you don't lose me or our audience, some of us who might be a bit more skeptical. How would you explain your position that this is not woo-woo, this is this is real?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I would try to avoid explaining.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Okay, great. Tell us.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Because when we explain and define, if I'm talking to somebody, I'm trying to explain and define, I'm gonna end up having to prove what I'm saying. Yes, at every step. And yes, that's the scientific method, then. Yeah, God help us. And then what I'm doing is I'm pushing the other person into their prefrontal cortex where they are going to be dependent upon uh seeking a line of reasoning, yeah. Uh seeking a if this then that, if that then not this. In other words, I would be driving their awareness into a two dimensional perceptual state.

unknown 21:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

And I would be disallowing them the possibility that they could experience what I'm saying. So if somebody says, I don't know about the What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna talk to them about experience. Okay. And I would do what the elders do, which is I would suggest, well, maybe you don't understand what I'm saying, but have you ever sat down in a sunbeam and found yourself feeling really, really great? Have you ever sat down someplace in nature or listened to the wind, even if you're inside or uh got mesmerized by the sound of rain on your roof, and all of a sudden you're in a different state and you're not worried about yourself, you're not thinking, am I hearing this correctly? Uh is it actually rain? Is it something else on my roof? You're just relaxed and you feel great, and there's a sense of connection. Your awareness is off of your own ego structure and in the world. Has that ever happened to you?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

I see. So what you're looking to do is help them connect with experiential states that aren't necessarily preconditioned as our prefrontal cortex is, yeah, with all the structures and all the biases and all the so it's a different way of knowing the world and being in the world.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Exactly. Exactly right. And it's the way we are designed to know the world. So if I have somebody who's really, really want to know, I want to know what you do, Marty. Tell me, tell me, tell me, and they're really not understanding, I'll start giving them a little neurophysiology, because that was my secondary studies at Harvard.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

So I pull out a little science.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

And I start to explain as a biological organism, we have this massively beautiful nervous system, and we are literally receiving sensory data from the world around us 24-7.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

You can't stop it.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

No, it's just coming in, no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, you can't stop it. And it's all received. It is recognized by your nervous system, it's tagged, it's stored, it's retrieved, it's cross-referenced. Uh, this is what the our so-called imagination is: is that um our brains are constantly mixing and matching our experiential data. We're constantly creating uh ideas and images of potentiality, and you know, there's so much going on inside us that most people are not aware of. But it is true that we know first by energy that incoming data, it's energy and information. And if you pick it up with your ear, it's auditory. If you pick it up with your nose, it's uh olfactory. If you pick it up with the touch, it's kinesthetic. And we're we're taking it in all the time. That's how we're designed. And so what I say to them is uh, you know, what is all this energy stuff? It's capacity to sense the world energetically. This is how we know the world, and this is what it is to be conscious, to know where your awareness is working, to be able to focus your awareness so you pull in the data that you need to be creative, that you need to support yourself, and you know what supports you in life.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Yeah, got here. So you're trying to, if I understand what you're saying correctly, you're encouraging people to be much more deliberative or or conscious about their consciousness.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Yeah, yeah. To know more about who they are in the world, right? And exactly. And what I love about how you just explained that is I could imagine having a conversation with a friend of mine. And the the fact that you were able to give not only the um the side of what you know, which you know, um you have the experience to know about energy, but you were able to just drop in enough of that uh scientific side that just makes people have to think twice. Because that we don't we don't think about all those details, but they're all true.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yes. But we just don't think about it.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Well, my experience in listening to Marty just now was she hooked me with a science. Yes. Well, what's the song? She blinded me with science. Is that the song? Okay, because but that's the way in for me, but what I need to do feels already, even early on in this conversation as an individual, is not rely on that as my only gateway to being in the world.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah, yeah. And you know, what we call science has been known by humans for tens of thousands of years. We just call it science. Sure. They called it being conscious.

SPEAKER_04 26:41

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

If you go back into indigenous cultures and look at the original wisdoms, why I call it original human wisdom, uh, they already knew all this stuff. They already knew biochemistry and neurophysiology and they knew astronomy and astrophysics, because that's what consciousness is. And they would take this is common throughout many, many cultures, uh, when a young person is uh they they tend to let their babies be babies and their little kids be little kids, but when it's time to start learning and maturing, they take their little kids out into the forest, out into the landscape, and they teach them how to know the world through their senses. Yeah. And that's actually the original meaning of the word perception. And our consciousness is based on number one, our capacity to perceive, and our secondly, our capacity to be aware of what we're perceiving because we're perceiving knowing the world through the senses 24-7. You cannot stop it. Even if your heart stops for a while, you're still taking data in.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Are you aware of it? And Western culture has developed in such a way that we've withdrawn awareness from nature, we've put our awareness into ourselves, I mean mine. And what happens in your brain is your ego structure, uh, it needs to be connected to the world in order to be relaxed. So if you withdraw your awareness from the world, the ego structure and the limbic system start to shift and they start to be afraid of larger powers that they don't know. And the limbic fear circuit starts to trigger and that condenses you, it pulls you in further. So we've got a world of people who are seriously, I call it self-referential. You know, it's not quite egotistical, it's that everything is in reference to the self.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

It's highly atomized.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah, because they don't know how to put awareness out into the world again. And if your awareness is so inwardly directed that you can't know the world with your awareness, that is seriously limited consciousness. It changes how you solve problems, it changes how you relate. Sometimes you cannot relate because if you get sufficiently drawn in, your awareness is sitting in a part of your brain that's designed to choose either or. You know, sometimes we process a lot of information and then we got to get from the house to the store and back again. Your brain is constantly making maps, and it sends these maps from the big part of your brain to a small linear part, and you go, yes, boss, and hopefully you get from your door to the store and back again without getting distracted or run over or something like that. But if your awareness is stuck in that linear part, that's all you've got. So you spend your life trying to get from here to there. You worry, okay, I went from A to B. Is B correct, or is it B prime? And that part of the brain doesn't process two things at once, it processes one thing at once. Now think about the world. It's either or.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

It's you or me, and I excuse me, it's me, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, me. Yeah, exactly. And and we can't bring cultures together because of this. You know, every every culture, these principles that I teach people, they are the same everywhere in every human culture, in every system, in the universe. Consciousness works exactly the same way at all scales simultaneously. And so, as a human, as a modern human, if you're willing to learn a little bit about your awareness and you're willing to learn a few principles and embody them, you've got the world at your fingertips.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

Okay. Wow. Wow. That's a that's a big call. Yeah. That's a big call.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

Which I guess segues into a question that I have is that clearly you hold this knowledge, but you don't hold it for the sake of holding it.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:34

What do you do with it? How are you channeling it? How are you working with this knowledge with yourself, with others?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Well, in order to do the work that I do, I have to live this knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Because what I do, I'm I mean, look at me. I I wander around the world and say, hey, you want to wake up? Come work with me.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

How many heads do you find in your travels? How many sleepy heads do you find in your travels?

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Oh, most people are sleepy heads. Most people on the planet today will not wake up into full consciousness. But I don't care about that because it doesn't take many of us. What I find is when I train somebody and their consciousness starts to flower, their ripple effect is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

It's phenomenal. It's not just your close friends and family. Um, you know, I've trained people who I have an educator in California who's been training with me for a long time. And she just because her consciousness changed, she affected the a whole system of school systems in Central California. They all started to change because her consciousness was different. And it's not because she sat people down and said, No, you have to do it my way and not the other way. It's just she began to relate to people consciously. She was using the principles of consciousness to make decisions. Um, and it just it woke up the entire interrelated set of schools. And this is a huge district. And uh they changed.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

So what I'm hearing is that if you can wake yourself up somehow or wake up with someone's help, there are systemic repercussions.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, yeah. The things that we're looking for are dependent. We we can achieve them if we realize that everything depends on how we use awareness. Everything. And it has to be trained. It's like, you know, when you're born, you don't know how to breathe. Did you know that? You have you don't know how to breathe. Yep. Uh that's part of it. But also ideally, if you're really lucky as a little baby, you get to sleep on the chest of a parent who can breathe properly, and your body copies breathing rhythms. Okay. And your heart rate is not set when you're born. And the best way to have your heart rate and your heart rate variability set is that you receive mother's milk at the right temperature or the right intervals. How many people got that in sight? Whoops! And so now we have apps on our iPhone, uh, you know, our Apple watches and stuff. But we're born as really blank slates. And yes, we're learning very fast, but we need input, is is the issue. And to grow consciousness, we need input. We need to be taught how to relate to the world. That's why the elders used to take the children out into nature. We're gonna teach you how to be awake in the world. We're gonna teach you about the larger powers that create the world. And now you think about the world we live in now. We have all the powers of nature, but we've created other forces in the world. Who's teaching our children about those other forces? We don't even know about them.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

But to Do you have any forces in mind when you mention other forces? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Well, think about cultural forces. You know, I mean, there's more humans on the planet than there have ever been, right? And originally humans shaped their culture. They were shaped by the geography they lived on. But we don't live in that world anymore. There's too many people, very few people get to grow up and mature on the lands where they were born.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

And people move around. And there are many people on the planet who have no way of getting into nature. I think of India. You know, there are places where you're lucky if you see the weed growing in the in a dirt road. So we are setting up forces that shape culture, they shape identity. If we knew how to use awareness, we could still be okay, even though as humans we're being shaped very differently now. It's easy for me to say, oh yeah, just go out in the nature, but not everybody can do that.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

It's not available to everyone.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

It's not available. Even in a city, cities like Melbourne and Sydney, there are a lot of trees in the city. So that's a little bit. It's it's not the same as being in the wilderness, which I I love to do. But still, that doesn't mean we can't be conscious.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

So we have to understand the forces that are shaping culture now and the forces that are shaping our economies, which in turn shape our emotional responses to life in general, and the forces that shape our government. This is all about consciousness.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

And when you talked about your beginning, you mentioned that when you started being taught, some of it you already knew. You you kind of I guess it was natural too.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Is that normal? Is does that happen very often? Are there others like you?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

There are many people like me, and most of them don't know it. The two of you, because of what you do, you're like me.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Oh, we need a camera.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

It feels like quite a compliment. I'm not sure I meant it yet. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

That was priceless.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

This is why we don't do video.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah, I don't do video on my podcast either. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:12

Um sorry, how do you feel we like you?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Look at what you're doing. You're doing something different. You are starting conversations that come from the heart. You're not planning it out and doing feasibility studies, and you don't have a rigid outline, and we have to do this and we can't do the other thing. You're being natural humans and you're coming from the heart and you're feeling your way through conversations and you're attuned to your world. Oh, wow. Yeah. And you bring people to wine. I mean, our relationship with the plant spirits is really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And if we understand that wine, how old is wine? Thousands as a food. It's thousands and thousands and thousands of years old. And there are many, many foods like this. And then these foods and drinks were developed because people were connected to the spirit of the plant. I don't know if you know this, but in in the Andes in in Peru and the high regions of the Andes, where there's lots of terracing and stuff, most of the foods of the world that we eat now were developed in the Andes. And every one of those terraces has a microclimate. And the people who were in charge of the agriculture, they built the terraces to create those microclimates. And they knew how to work with water so everything was properly irrigated, and they developed seeds. They developed 4,000 varieties of potato, and I don't know how many varieties of all the other things that we eat, the beans and the tomatoes and everything, came from there. But what are they doing? They are propagating potentiality. They're not just making food. I mean, in the West we'd say, oh yeah, we're making food. We're going to have some corn, yada yada. They understand that every seed is a chunk of consciousness from the universe. And they understand the physical seeds that we plant in the ground come from, in most cultures, they'll they'll say it comes from the Pleiades. The Pleiades are seen as the celestial, celestial seed storehouse. Say that fast ten times. It might be the wine. Yeah. So so the propagation of seeds, there is, from the Western lens, we say, oh yeah, it's spiritual. But they're just being conscious and thriving. If I have a seed, here's a metaphor that I love. Consider a corn kernel. If you plant a corn kernel, it doesn't just replicate itself. You don't get one corn kernel, right? It replicates its essence. And every seed that's planted is replicating its essence. From one kernel, you get an entire stalk.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

And you get many ears of corn with many new kernels. And each of those kernels, if you were to plant them, would replicate their essence. Multiplicities of benefit. So if I'm creating seeds and new varieties, that's the vision in my mind. I want multiplicities of benefit for unending thriving in the world. That's consciousness.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

And you can only do that if you understand that you are the speech of the planet, that the planet is the speech of the universe, that there's an even greater intelligence that's speaking the universe. The whole thing is energy. It's on the move. And if you step into that flow, it will teach you your essence. It will teach you your role. It will feed you and support you so you can feed and support those around you. This is consciousness on the move. And Western people, they'll hear, oh, yeah, that's a little indigenous story. And uh, it's consciousness. Originally, humans understood the physics of the universe, the physics of thriving, they understood how to work in the system, and uh we broke it. Sorry, but we we broke it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

How did we break it?

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Oh, this well, this is my theory. My theory is that we used to live, humans used to live in relationship to nature before we built big cities. And and we we were nomads, we wandered the planet, we settled everywhere, but we were living in relationship to nature. And nature taught us when to plant, it taught us where to hunt, taught us how to stay safe. It's always this exchange with nature. And if we took care of nature, nature took care of us. So that's how we used to live, right? Awareness out in the world. Now, in if we go to a little bit of physics, there's something called the physics of flow. And in the physics of flow, there's a little principle called the bifurcation point. So if you've got something flowing, imagine a tree root just growing like it does in the earth. At some point, there will be a bifurcation point. At some point, that root will send off a little shoot and the shoot goes in a different direction.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

You can't predict it, but it happens. Okay. So there's humans trundling along, and we're living in relationship to nature, and we're doing fairly well. And all of a sudden, somebody says, Oh, all this nature stuff, that's okay. But what about what's inside us? The bifurcation point was we drew our awareness away from nature and went inside to investigate the ego structure, the sense of I, the sense of individuality, our capacity to speak and dream and write poems and sing. Of course, we were going to get interested in the inside. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why not? But the mistake we made was we kept going in and kept going in and kept going in until Heraclites in in Greece says, it is dangerous to think in sunlight. In other words, we withdrew our awareness so severely at a cultural level, we came into ourselves, and awareness will end up in the ego structure. It's like a big electromagnet. And if you don't balance your awareness of self with experience of the world around you, you end up being seriously self-referential. And if you look at the development of Western culture, what do we start doing? We were building interesting structures, but we started to pave over the earth. And instead of those beautiful early Greek and Roman temples with oculis so the sun could come in, we made bigger stone buildings. And it was reflected in the culture. We started to control things. And we put all the power at the top of societies and all the weakness at the bottom. And we knew less and less about nature. So we started to control it. And those bigger powers, remember, we were talking about how we're taking in data from the world 24-7?

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

You could bring all your awareness inside you and just like sit on top of your ego structure like some little crazy devil. But your nervous system is still taking in all that information of much bigger powers. And if you don't know those powers, your limbic fear circuit's gonna say, danger, danger, Will Robinson, down periscope, dive, dive, right? Go somewhere. Yeah, and so we get afraid, and our knee-jerk response is to control. So we start to control nature, we start to cut it down, we start to, and that comes into society, we start to control society, we start to put power into hierarchies, and on and on it goes. We also, bringing awareness inside, got stuck in our prefrontal cortex, which took some very hard work and a few millennia to grow. Remember the Neanderthals or their slanty foreheads? It's just because we hadn't grown the frontal lobes. But we started thinking, thinking, thinking, and figuring, and the prefrontal cortex is where we do complex problem solving. And so we got stuck thinking. We got stuck in language, we got stuck in an egocentric state. And what's connected directly to your prefrontal cortex is the limbic fear circuit.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

So it's like the most primitive part of us is attached by a super highway to the most sophisticated part of us. And we're kind of trapped in in these extremes. And most people are trapped inside themselves.

SPEAKER_04 44:06

Isn't that the inevitable journey of human progress?

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Well, I don't know if it's inevitable, but I do know this is very interesting. If you look at the creation stories of indigenous cultures, almost everyone, everyone I've looked at, there's some expression of creator, you know, God creator, whatever. And and he makes the, so he's a he. I have to object to that, but that's another talk, right? That's another podcast. How much talk do we have? Oh man, we got lots. So so creator makes earth and and makes all the forests and the rivers and you know all it's just beautiful. And he puts the all the animals in and all the insects, and it's just gorgeous. Then he has a go at making bipeds. You put some humans in. And in nearly every creation story, the first iteration of humans is declared to be uncivilized.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

Clawed in some way.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Just like these creatures, these bipeds, they don't do anything, they don't contribute anything, they're ruining everything, and humans are wiped out, and creator does a second iteration. So we're very, very special in the big scheme of things. We humans, we're very delicate. It's really easy. If you have a baby, it's really easy to wreck that baby's life. Yeah. We are so delicate, and yet we are so powerful and we're so special. We have creative skills, we have this voice. We once asked the elders in South America why humans have language. Why do we learn to speak? And the response was so you can share your dreams.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Wow. That yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Isn't that special? Isn't that special? And and we can sing. Yeah, it's really we're very, very special. And, you know, I once asked in South America, they're training me, they continue to initiate me and my students, and I, you know, they're always saying, Well, okay, you Western people, you're really different, but you really have to absorb the wisdom and carry it forward. We cannot let this die. And I asked recently, yeah, we're different, Western people, we have a very different world. We've made a lot of mistakes, but there are those of us sitting here with you, elders, and we're even more different. It's like you were just asking. And I said, Yeah, you're different like me, and you're going, whoa. And I said, Well, what about us? We're even more different. And the response was quite remarkable. They said that there is an original lineage of humans who agreed, who knew that our consciousness is really important to the bigger scheme of things. And we agreed to always be in conversation with what people call spirit, to always be in conversation, I'm gonna put it differently, with energy becoming matter, to never get lost in only the solid world, to never get lost in either or, but to be the conduits for things emerging into this world. And that's our agreement. And people like you and me, we are descendants of that lineage. It's not biological, it's protoplasmic.

SPEAKER_04 47:26

That's quite a word. Protoplasmic.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Protoplasmic. Your protoplasm is the most amazing thing. Protoplasm is a liquid crystal, right? Okay, yeah, and crystalline things have the properties of focusing energy. They have other properties, but the most uh astounding thing is they organize and focus energy. And when we're collecting data from the universe around us, we have to learn how to focus. We have to learn which data we converge in order to create. But humans have this, we have a special role. And if we fall out of that role, which we've done gradually over the last 2,026 years, the consciousness of our world starts to crumble.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

When we step back into that role, things are much better. And it doesn't mean that you put on a poncho and shake a rattle and light incense. That is not what it means. What it means is you learn what consciousness is and you grow your own authentically. That's what it means.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Yeah. You you impact the people around you in many different ways. And exactly. That's the goal, right? That's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Yeah. And in impacting people, you learn, these are principles of consciousness. You learn what it is to be present, you learn what it is to know everything as it is without any agenda. So you can see where you go to work, you can see what is relevant to you and what is not relevant to you. You learn how to invest in relationship in order to create those multiplicities of benefit so everyone is thriving. You learn what collectivity, what community actually is, and how to maintain it. You model and live in membership in the whole living universe. That experience of membership is what most people are missing. That's why we have wars. Yeah. So you you embody the principles. And by your embodying those principles, you teach others to embody them too. And that's what being fully conscious is. That's the the cure, if you will. That's the medicine that the world needs.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

You did say earlier, Marty, that it doesn't take many of us. Which, apart from sounding quite sinister, I'm sure that's not the intention.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

It will not take many of us.

SPEAKER_04 49:45

We shall return. Yes.

unknown 49:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Join us. Join us. One of us. One of us. It doesn't take many of us, which suggests to me that there is a purpose at play. Yeah. Doesn't take many of us to do what? What is the oh I don't know how to put it, not quite an endgame, but what what is the nature of this change that that you feel not many of us could achieve or are working toward?

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Yeah. Well, I think it's what we're talking about. We've been talking about what's happened to Western consciousness. Yes. Yes. And how we pulled in so far we became linear, we became either or oriented, very binary, uh controlling, we can't connect anymore. This is a cycle of human development. And everything moves in cycles. Everything. There's a beginning, there's a growth, there's power and wisdom created. And as cycles come to an end, if it's a healthy cycle, there are two momentums at the ending of a cycle. And one of those momentums brings the cycle to a close. And the other momentum has been developed by the cycle. That other momentum, it's new energy, it's all the wisdom that's been created in that cycle. And that second momentum starts the next cycle.

SPEAKER_04 51:08

It generates the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

It generates the next cycle. But you have to allow things to come to a close. And what are we doing? I mean, just look at the states. We are clinging. Some most people are clinging to the old way. We even, I shouldn't say this, we brought him back.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

You know, right?

unknown 51:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah. So they're going to come, they'll be waiting on my doorstep when I go home.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Should we see yourself? Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yes. Yeah. But, you know, think about this. When when things come to an end, Western people are not good at endings.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

You have to let the thing end because that's when you get all the beauty of the new thing. And this ending and beginning, you know, the ending and the beginning or one, if it's an old prayer, it's technical. It's physics.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

And you get the full beauty of what you've created and the momentum for more if you allow that full completion. If you hang on, I'm, you know, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Yeah, it's like the old saying that where one door closes, another one opens. It's true. They're happening at the same time, which is hard to reconcile, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:18

That it's creating the closure, but it's also creating the beginning of the next cycle, which is it's hard to reconcile if your awareness is in that linear part of your brain, because in the linear part, first one thing and then another thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

And that's how you're processing information. But if you even a little bit learn to let your awareness flow into the world, get your awareness off of yourself and flow into the world, you'll have days where you realize, oh, I'm not doing that if this then that thing. It's an instant change. And it's not because you did one thing and then you feel different. It's just use your awareness differently and you realize, oh my God, everything I'm looking for is happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:58

So you experience simultaneity somehow.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

Yes. That's how it works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

It's mind-blown. That's right. This is not good for an audio podcast to have too much silence. But I need the silence to process what's going on. I do have some questions. Of course I do. I love questions. You talked about how the way that Western culture has developed, it has taken us down kind of a binary path, either or yes or no. But I am struck by the fact though that you have been comparing Western culture to non-Western or to whatever is other, which is kind of a binary structure. It's either Western or not Western. How do you reconcile that process of explanation?

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Yeah, I guess it's a comparison, but what I'm attempting to do is to illustrate to people these for now I'll say two, two different states of being.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

But it's instructive if I can get across to people what it's like to be trapped in that linear processing aspect that we have. We we need to have it. It has it has a purpose, but it's not supposed to be the only place that we live. And if you're processing the world only through that either-or A to B, you're in real trouble.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

Yeah. So that's the simultaneity again. If you can experience that where that exists, but other things exist at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Exactly. It's not an either-or world. It's everything at once. And it's like living in flatland. It's like you have only length and width, but you've got no depth, or you can't see the height of things. The world is more than three-dimensional. And you know, we talk about in the trainings, we talk about worldview. What's your worldview? What's your cosmology? For most Western people, their worldview is literally A to B to C. Are we there yet? What are the milestones? What's my what's my deadline? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:05

Interesting when you think about that term.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Yeah, yeah. And then we have to measure, because this is also the world of measurement. So we have to do a feasibility study. We have to have measures. Uh they say if you can measure it, you can manage it. And that's really holding business back. I mean, yes, we need some measures, but if that's my only way, I have to measure how far A to B to C are, I'm really limited. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

Okay. That's an interesting segue into the broader, I guess, leadership landscape. Yeah. KG?

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

How would you encourage people who might be leading teams, leading departments, leading organizations, or maybe even leading governments? How is this form of knowledge or form of being in the world? I don't want to use the word knowledge because it feels too cognitive, but this way of being in the world, how would that transform the way that these practices happen?

SPEAKER_00 56:00

It transforms everything. I'm going to preface this by saying that mostly I work with individual professional renegades.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Explain that. I want rogues.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

I want rogues. I want people who are so good at what they do and so brilliant and they know it can be done differently, and nobody understands what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

But I do. When I hear them talk about their ideas, I say, yeah, that's conscious. I want people who are seeing the world already in multiple dimensions, seeing potentiality, seeing what could be manifested, but it cannot be manifested in a linearized world. It can't be manifested by reason. It can only be manifested by consciousness. So imagine somebody like this, and they come to me. Instead of letting them think of, okay, here I am and I want to get there, I'm saying, no, it doesn't work that way. You are the conduit through which the universe moves, and whatever you're going to create is going to come through you, literally through you, right where you are. This is how it happens anyway. How do your podcasts happen? How is this happening? Right here where we are. You can't plan what we're doing. And what we're doing is magnificent because we don't put it in two dimensions first. Yeah. So first you need a person, one person, who is willing to say, Oh yeah, that dimensional thing, I don't know what you're talking about, but it feels right. You can't flatten it out and get it done. You have to blossom. The age-old human metaphor is the blossoming or the germination and blossoming of a seed, right where the seed is from the inside out, and the blossoming happens. And energy moves from the earth through the seed, through the roots, through the stem to the flowers. It's this thing. Yep. Yeah. The tree of life is one of the metaphors of this process. And so you need somebody first and foremost who is willing, who feels in their bones or their protoplasm, we mentioned protoplasm, who just feels that. Yeah, that's right. And they don't have to understand it. That's what you need first. Now, if you have somebody in the middle of a big organization who's like that, it's a little more difficult because the organization is a set framework. And everything that happens within that framework, the framework says you have to match me, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Or you're pushing against it the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

And you're pushing against it because you've got something that isn't the framework.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

The company needs it, but it isn't the framework. So in nature, how does a framework happen? A tree doesn't exist first. What happens is there's this magical stuff of sunlight becoming carbon, becoming wood. There's a fluidity, there's a flow of something, and that flow finds places to connect here in the physical world and build itself up. And then from fluidity connectivity, you get a framework. The tree is initially light. And the physical tree, once it's formed, that's the framework. And so a really great business starts with the seed. The founder, the initial team, they have a seed, they just start doing stuff. This is going to change venture capital. You just start doing stuff and you see what works and you make connections as you build every stage of your business, fluidity, connectivity. And all of a sudden you realize the framework that will support what you're doing and allow you to evolve it. You cannot see that framework first.

SPEAKER_03 59:33

Yeah. You cannot pre-plan it the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Yeah, you can't. And so everything that we're doing is limited. If somebody says, okay, I want your plan, I want your framework, I want your yada yada yada. I think the earliest definition of a business in Western terms is find out what they want, go and get it and give it to them. So finding out what they want, that's the vision. And a good entrepreneur, a good leader has a vision. Where's the vision come? The universe. All that data coming into the unique human. And the unique human, we each of us we've got a way of processing information, of imagining what's possible. And like look at the three of us. We're like that, right? And everything we do. We call them downloads, insights. It doesn't come from your ego, it comes from the universe.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

Yeah. All this connection, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

The whole thing. And if you get that, you've got to keep letting that flow through you, you'll start creating. You can't see the endpoint. It's ridiculous to believe you can see the endpoint. So you create and you see even more of what's possible, and then you create what you couldn't see yesterday. But it's there's a continual base, there's a continuity because it's the essence of you and your original vision manifesting, manifesting, evolving as it manifests. And that's how we get frameworks that can support human life back in the big system of the living universe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:53

So for me, it sounds like what you're saying is that it's both iterative and incremental. Yes, yes. All that it just keeps moving. Yeah. But it also sounds to me like what you're describing is how a productive way of navigating complexity, as we understand, as I understand it. Where you just you can't predict complexity because that's not that's counter, that's counter-definitional. But by doing this incremental iterative thing, you find a path that might be fruitful or generative.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

Yes, it's given to you if you focus on your vision. It's given to you if you pay attention to what is actually occurring and quit trying to look ahead and decide what the future's gonna be. Yeah. And this business of complexity, the whole universe is complexity. Yeah. In the Andes, the elders say that wisdom is encoded in beauty. And go out into nature or go to your flower shop if you don't have any nature, find a flower that just mesmerizes you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

And look at how beautiful that is and start to feel the wisdom encoded in that flower. The colors, the shapes of the petals, the way the blossom opens, the lifespan it has. Everything is wisdom of that plant so it can propagate and evolve. That's what it's for. And so we are designed to know that we have a capacity to take in so much information they can't put a number on it. Mathematicians and physicists have tried, and uh they get to these like ridiculous sounding gazillion, trzillion, something or others, and that's a few multi-billion of another thing. They can't measure how much information that we can process. But if your awareness is trapped in that linear part, that linear part of your brain processes about 120 bits of information per second as opposed to hundreds of millions, which we're designed to. So complexity is not a problem, it's the state of the universe. Yeah. And we are designed to work at those levels.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:57

Yeah, which is interesting because if back to your earlier point, if what we're doing is limiting our experience of the world through our prefrontal cortex, then we miss complexity. We reduce it really, don't we? And then we become afraid of it because we don't understand, we can't process the information. No, no, so shut it down.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Well, exactly. And you know, if your awareness is trapped in that linear part, you're not even in your prefrontal cortex at that point. That linear part of your brain that can process only a few little bits of information, it's not wired through your senses to the world around you, and it doesn't have the kind of neurons, let alone the number of neurons that you need to process the complexities of the world. So if you're trapped in there, that's where overwhelm happens. It doesn't mean that you're incapacitated, it just means your awareness is not in the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

Yeah, you haven't expanded that awareness. Exactly right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:49

Can I just switch back for a little bit to the to the rogue element that you mentioned? Yeah, rogue that we're looking for, yes. So yeah. Let's say I was saying I'm asking for a friend. Yes, let's say there is a person in a large organization and they're vibing differently to the whole structure of the organization. They are dissonant.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

But this rogue person has to pay their bills and their mortgage and the food and the family and take the kids through.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

How does someone whose energy, whose vibration, whose way of sensing the world might be so different to the structure of the organization? What is your conversation with them like? Because whether we like it or not, bigger constraints, bigger systems that are forcing us into particular ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Exactly. That's the world we live in. It's a mess. It works against us. We we we did it, here we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're kind of stuck in it. Yeah. Exactly. You made your bid, right? Right on. I'm at it. Yeah. So this is where I get actually really excited because all I need is that person. They don't have to change jobs. I want that person, and I want to train their consciousness. And even in the beginning of training consciousness, what does that mean? We start by training awareness. And we start by learning to embody two of the principles of consciousness. And so that person gets more skillful. Two things happen with that person. These are the first stages. One is that person gains extraordinary confidence in their own essential genius. You know who you are, and nothing can knock you off it. You can have the stupidest boss in the world, and you still know who you are, and you don't have to fight your boss. You don't need validation. You are totally you. And you develop the capacity to see everything as it is. So that person would see and begin to understand, because this is consciousness, you'd begin to understand the fact. Physics of that larger framework of the business, you understand in terms of physics, not emotions, why that big structure, how that big structure constrains the company and constrains your ideas. And if you're gonna keep the job, you accept those constraints. You don't fight it. There's I mean it's silly to get upset about it. You understand it. And then you also understand the personalities and the dynamics of the people you have to work with in the company. So you actually turn into the person who can see it might be a little coordinate here or a little coordinate there. You can see places where you can move in and do something different without scaring everybody half to death.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

Yeah, yeah. You you figure out how to navigate.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

You navigate and you create. Consciousness is always on the move, and it just needs a tiny little crack to move through. It doesn't care if it's a big system that's gone mostly dark, if there's a little crack, the light gets in. That lovely metaphor. And if you work in a large organization and you're willing to really do the work to flower your own consciousness to get these technologies in you, then you can do amazing things in the big system. It's like the person I was mentioning, the educator. Uh, the school systems in the US are very, very rigid. And she changed all like all of Central California is like, yeah, okay, there we go. Yeah. Fluid, conscious, everybody's even happier. Some of their schools were named the happiest schools in the state all of a sudden where there had been misery. So it's possible, but you have to really accept things as they are and quit fighting them. See, if I'm in that either-or chunk of my brain, I'm always fighting something.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

And that's a waste of energy. That's not consciousness.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:58

Yeah, it reminds me of you know how we typically would go through the process of learning about everyone in the organization, you know, how they think, why they think this way, getting all of their ratings. And it's for that same reason, right? To learn how to flow with everyone around you, to understand them enough so that you can work with them, you can understand where to push and where not to to get to a better outcome, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:34

Once again, I'm asking for a friend.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

They might feel that they're banging their heads against a very, very solid wall. Yeah. And it's hurting. Yeah. But what I think this is doing here is it's saying, well, look, this wall, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:53

Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be there.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

And these people, they are who they are. It's not up to me to change them. It's not up to me to directly change the system. Right. What I'm going to try and do is understand my own consciousness, evolve that, grow that. Right. And then see what happens. Yeah. So you can see what's going on. Because if I if I can change what's happening here, I hypothesize I'm going to relate differently or something's going to change. Or whether it's the energy between people or my approach to something, or maybe I'll see something that was so close to my my eyes, but because I was bagging my head, I couldn't see it. Yeah. Yeah. So it could be all sorts of things, but it starts with me making a decision to do something.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And you don't know if you're that person in that big rigid framework, you don't know what you're going to be able to do. You may not be able to navigate. And it's important to learn through full consciousness is this navigable or not?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:52

Yes. Yeah. Because that's the difference between choosing to leave or getting just spat out.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

Well, yeah. Yeah. And it's the difference between the modern efforts to, oh, let's make everybody work together. You can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

It takes a lot of courage and a lot of skill to realize, okay, those two people should never be in the same room together. Not for emotional reasons, but because of physics. Not everything in the universe is designed to go together.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

Yeah, it just doesn't work sometimes, right? It's not, it's it's the magnets that you were talking about. It's the magnets.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

It's it's not even does it work, does it not work? It's what is the nature of the thing, right? And we've lost all of this ability to see what works, what doesn't work, where people should be working, what their genius is. We're so attuned to and so dependent on large frameworks. Tell me what to do, give me the 10 steps to nirvana. And none of it's working.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Because consciousness doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

I would like 10 steps, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

Well, yeah, secretly, we all want that secret.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

That's secret. Don't say it's just give me the steps. I have to learn.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

We can't let that cat out of the bag.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:09

I can't believe the time already. Oh, yes. I'd like to hope this is just part one of a larger conversation. Yes, because um I'm experiencing some, may I say it? I'm experiencing some weird shit right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:23

Um good. And yeah, thank you. So in a way, I hear the words you're saying, yeah, but they're not all connecting. Yeah. Right. But there's something that feels whole. Yeah. But I have no idea what it is. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

Perfect. That is experiential wisdom. Language, you guys need to know this. Language is an outcome, it's not a resource. To make a word in your head, sensory data is taken through four distinct processes in the part of your brain that does not use language. Most of your brain doesn't use language, it creates it. Most of your brain doesn't need logic, it creates it, doesn't need it. Right? And so when you're having this experience of, oh yeah, it's really reaching me, and your prefrontal cortex can't make sense of it, that's a breakthrough. Okay. That's a total breakthrough. We know experientially first. Language is way after the fact.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:22

Okay, so that leaves me with some hope that I'm on the verge of some breakthrough.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

You've already had it. You've already had it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

You can't describe it. And you you can always describe it. So this is this different.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:34

I used to think that was my super strength, but clearly, clearly, uh, there is something beyond that. Um but thank you so much. Um walking away from this conversation with more questions. In fact, I'll walk away from this conversation thinking that my initial questions weren't even worth asking. I have a whole set of questions.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

Oh, no, don't don't do that to yourself because every step in into this territory, every step is a step of mastery.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

Every question asked opens the door that otherwise wouldn't be open. Yeah. Yeah. And since we're dealing with consciousness, every step takes us to something you can't see without taking the step.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:17

Gotcha. Fair. That's the simultaneity thing. Yeah. Just do it, see what happens, and keep doing it. Yeah, exactly. Don't try to know exactly what's going to happen. Yeah. So if people who are listening, Marty, have, like me, a whole ton of questions, confusions, all the above observations. Yeah. How might they reach you?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

Well, people can email me very easily at Marty Spiegelman at Mac.com. We'll put that in the show notes. But a really great thing to do, I have an audio course. It's easy listening, is what I call it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

And it's just audio, so you can take it in your car everywhere you go. And you can find it at PC, P is in Peter, C is and whatever. Consciousness, PC dot Martyspiegelman.org. Okay. And do that. Do the audio course. It's it's 11 hours of me talking about this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:09

I cannot watch it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

And an extra and a PDF and you know stuff. Okay. Um and you work through it at your own pace, and there there are exercises to train your awareness. It's the best thing to do. It's the opening. Do it at your own pace. Email me, tell me what it did for you, what it didn't do for you. That's the best way to start. And yes, people can email me, absolutely, or find me on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:32

Yeah. Right. That's a good way of starting this process, I think, or continuing this process for some of us. Yeah. To check it out. Down below. So we'll put all that in the show notes. Once again, Marty, it's been an absolute pleasure to spend time with you. Thank you so much. So good. So good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

What a great episode to come back to. Yes. Yes, yes. It's been lovely.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:58

Yeah, I'm feeling good.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:00

We both flew across the Pacific. To be here at this moment. At this moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:07

Well, thank you again. Yes, Katie.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

Pleasure. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

To you. And Slauncher. Slauncher. Slaunter. That's it for our show today. If you liked what you heard, if you liked our conversation, if you want to hear more, please rate us, review us, subscribe. Tell your friends, your family, your enemies, everyone you know. As always, we'd like to hear your feedback about any particular leadership topic you'd like to hear about or want us to explore. Please let us know by reaching out to us at askus at leadershipdocanted.com. That's ASKUS at leadershipdocanton.com. You can also leave your comments and suggestions at our website at leadership tocanton.com. We really appreciate your time and comments. Thanks for listening and come back next time.