Cheeky Half Episode (42): Can you be a good leader AND a bad person, at the same time?

KG  recently noticed some conflicting attitudes toward a leader: some people seem to be willing to defend them to the death, and others wouldn't follow them into a fire drill. Same person, same behaviour and two completely different verdicts, which suggests the disagreement may not really be a verdict on the leader at all. Maybe it's about where each of us privately draws the line around a moral or ethical position, and how wildly that line shifts between one person to the next, for reasons most of us have never actually examined.

Paul suggests a similar question shows up whenever a talented, difficult or controversial artist gets discussed. Can the work stand on its own once you know what the person behind it was actually like? Somehow that question feels easier to answer when it's Picasso than when it's your own manager, mostly because your manager is unlikely to have an entire art gallery named after them.

And maybe the harder question isn't about any specific leader at all. It's about whether we actually agree, any of us, on what crossing a line even looks like, or whether we've just been blindly nodding along this whole time.

Join Paul & KG  as they get into this Cheeky Half episode on whether a good leader can also be a bad person. Spoiler alert, we're not sure they know either.

Sláinte friends! 

If you are interested in a written reflection of this discussion and its themes, you can find our brief article here. 

Please feel free to send us your thoughts, comments and suggestions any time by leaving us a text/voice message via the link at the top of these show notes!

Or talk to us through either of the options below.

Email: askus@leadershipdecanted.com 

Website episode comments: www.leadershipdecanted.com

Disagree or agree with anything we've said? How wrong are we?!? Are there any leadership topics you'd like us to discuss, or people you'd like us to talk to? Maybe you'd like to recommend a favourite wine!

Whatever tickles your fancy, we'd love to hear from you!!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Should I still look at that person in the same way?

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I don't remember that PDD. Welcome to the Leadership Decandidate, a cheeky half edition, where we dare to share unfinished thoughts and ideas around some potentially thorny leadership questions. And even though KG and Mike can't always be in the same room, we still do this over a glass of our favorite beverage.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

What is going on, man?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Oh, it's good to see you. Look, we are recording this in a winter time in Sydney. It's been cold, it's been windy, but you know, it's been okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a good time of year. You can you can dress warm, you can kind of, you know, I've got the heater on in the uh uh in the back of me right now. If you can't hear it, it's there, you know. So it's it's a good time. It's a good time. Although my favorite time is uh summer in Sydney, but um you know right now it's all right.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, it's cold, man. Just just it's when you have to walk out the door and you're no longer in your cozy warm house. It's just cold, but anyway, I'm not complaining. I might sound like I'm complaining, I'm not complaining. It's not complaining, just observation. Observation, and I'm looking forward to doing this cheeky half because I don't have anything, but you know, you might. So I'm you know, I'm just hoping that something comes off this episode.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Let's see, let's see. This is not a you know, I would say a great story or anything that is too extraordinary, but it may be something that people experience, and you know, it's come up recently in my world. So let's let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

So before you kick it off, though, let me just remind in case anyone just joining us for the first time, what are we doing right here? Well, folks, fellow decanters, you know what this is about. This is about us just riffing for a few minutes in between main episodes, just to see what happens. If you're just joining us for the first time, that's right. If you're just joining us for the first time, that's exactly what we're doing. We're just getting things like that. Which is not our main episode, but it's very much part of the fabric of leadership decanted. We like to do one main episode a month, invite some amazing people, and then you and I can still get things off our chest in these little cheeky halves.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, yeah. Just kind of things that are in our world right now or in the world of people we know and uh trust and love. So it is fun.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Unfiltered, uncensored, and barely thought about, or certainly not processed.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yes, yes. And what happened if you are new to this, you'll get used to it. Don't worry, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

If you're looking for the answer, yeah, no, we won't have the answer, but we may have a question for you. Yeah, yeah. No answers, plenty of questions. Yes. Uh stay with us. You might you might be fine. But look, uh, sorry to interrupt, KG. You said you had you were thinking of something or something was in my world.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yes, it's in my world right now. And I've uh and you know, I'll have to kind of broaden it even, you know. If you think about politics of the day and you think about politicians of the world, me personally, I have a situation at one of my client sites, I'll say it that way, where there's a person who is polarizing, right? Because they are, in some people's eyes, a really good leader, and in other people's eyes, a really bad person. And I I know that's uh an odd combination, but I guess that's that's really kind of the uh topic for me is can you be a great leader and not be such a great person? Is is that possible? Is or do they go hand in hand? What what what do you think, Paul?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Oh, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

So can you be a good, not just a good leader, a great leader? You know, uh you don't have to shoot for the sky. Maybe a good leader, maybe just good.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I don't know. Can you be a good leader and a bad person? Or can you be a bad isn't interesting? If we change the order of that, can you be a bad person and a good leader? Can you be a good leader and a bad person? Uh kind of the same.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Uh you know, but it was good to flip it up, see, see if it made a difference.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly, you've got to play around with the words. Uh oh, well, where would I start? Oh, I guess I would start where I would usually be starting with which is definitions. Yeah. Definitions. What do we mean when we say good leader? Yeah. And what do we mean when we say bad person?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah. And I think that's what is interesting about it because it's all in the eye of the beholder, right? It's it's what people's perceptions are. And I think that's why well, you know, that's that's what I'm thinking. So this is listen, listen to this. So, you know, even if you think about political figures today, um, and um, you can talk about our side of the world, or you can talk about other parts of the world, there are some polarizing leaders out there. Some will argue that they're actually pretty darn good leaders, but they don't like them. And some people will say they're bad leaders because they don't like them. But, you know, I wondered, can they go together? Are they opposites in the fact that to be a great leader or a good leader, let's just say good leader, you need to be a certain type of, I'll call it, you know, have a um assignment. Yeah, that has a moral compass that aligns to, you know, the people you're leading, or I don't know how to describe it, but yeah, it it does that have to go together, or can they really be polar opposites? And someone can be a fantastic leader, but you don't like them.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

I think you're conflating two things though. Yeah, I think you're conflating being liked is very different to being good, and or being not liked is very different to being bad. I think they can crisscross. You can be good and not and not be liked, or you can be bad and be like and be liked. So I think the first thing I would do is put a wedge through that and say, look, it's not about being liked. What you're saying is there's a certain moral position or ethical position that might be a crossing of the line for some or not for others. If they cross the line, say if they cross the line for me, which means I would regard them as either amoral or immoral or unethical, can I still accept that they might be a good leader?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yes, and have great. Is that what you're asking? That's it. That's it. So, so that's that's the hardest part for me, is because you're right, I can inflate them, but because I think of them, and you're right, it's really a good person, you know. I like the way you put it where you talk about their moral values, compass if the if it's different than mine. Maybe that's how you see it. But for me, that kind of is almost personal as well, because there are some things that people do that cross a moral boundary for some people, and that does not cross the same boundary for other people. Same action, same outcome, but some people see it as, yeah, that was all right, or that was just or justified, even. And other people will see that as that crossed the line for me. I do not understand that person. I cannot stand behind that person. So they may change how they view that person as far as who they are and whether or not they could follow them as a leader or you know, see them as a leader. Man, it's just it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

It's just such a slippery slope. Why don't you put it into it? Um, because I mean, you know what I think this is very similar to for me? The question around the compromised artist and their art. Yep. Yep. So, you know, I'm thinking whether it's P. Diddy, you know, and their music, yes, or Michael Jackson and his legacy, or uh Woody Allen and his films, people who may or may not have crossed the line. Yeah. And for some people, yes, for some people, no. And that constant conversation of can we still enjoy their art, knowing that maybe they weren't a good person.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Ooh, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

It kind of feels similar. Yeah, yeah. Maybe not, maybe I mean, but it's different. I'll tell you why it's I think it's different. I think Michael Jackson was a good artist. He may have been a good or bad person, I don't know. But he was a good artist. Woody Allen was a good artist. I don't know about P. Diddy. But it's different, it's different to saying somebody is a good leader.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah. I feel it feels like it's different. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's not, because I I think there are some people out there who would question both of those fantastic artists and and and say that, you know, their stuff wasn't that great anyway. And then now they've crossed the line over here and now I've just blacklisted them forever.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

And yeah, yeah, and that's it where the slipperiness lives for me too, is that are there certain universal things that that where anybody and everybody can agree that is the red line? Yeah. Because everything else is subjective, and there is always that danger, that risk of being accused of being just relativistic, and therefore there's no good, there's no bad, there's no right, there's no wrong, and therefore you live in this weird, slippery moral ground. I have to admit, my moral landscape tends to be very broad. But but there are certain things that for me are an absolute red line. I'm just wondering if you ask to say is somebody a bad person, what's that line that might be common or shared or agreed by most people, if not all people? For me, that's the first, the biggest, the biggest obstacle or challenge or hurdle is to just to agree on that. What makes a person bad? That's even before going into someone's psychology, someone's makeup, someone's history. Yeah, yeah. And then if you can even get to that, then of course, then you've got the conundrum. But what is a good leader? Is it an effective leader, a productive leader, a leader who can rally the troops? Are they a great motivator, inspirational person?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Can they be all that and still be a bad person? Yeah. Actually, interestingly, here's another analogy, it's a pretty old one. But the guy from uh Jonestown back in the was it late 70s or early 80s, yeah, took took his cult to uh, I don't know, South America, the jungle somewhere, and they all drank the Kool-Aid, but it was laced, right? With cyanide. So could it be said that he was a good leader in that he managed to persuade or influence people to do the most horrific things around just taking their own life, really? For a confusing cause. I have I've never really quite understood why you would do that, but they did. Was he a good person or was he a bad person? Well, it feels to me if you're gonna lead people to their deaths, that at least for me, crosses a certain moral line. But could we say that he was a good leader because he was because people followed him? If people say a leader needs followers, it's often an equation that that is made. Yeah, a leader needs followers. If you don't have followers, you're not a leader. Well, this guy had followers, but look at the outcome. What does that say about his leadership? Oh my god, what am I what am I saying? What am I saying?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

It's a hard one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Very interesting, very yeah. And for some people, I can imagine how for some people it would be very black and white. Yeah, you know, and it would be very clear for them. And it's not so much for me. I do know I do have my own personal red lines, but I guess the question is if we're going to share an opinion or a position about the moral rectitude of somebody, then you and I have to have a shared moral space.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah, we have to have that common understanding that this is it and this is the position we sit in. And I'll tell you what happened uh for me at in in the corporate world. No, no, it's it's it's it's the same. But what what happened was we were in a discussion. We were, you know, there's a few of us um around the table, and we were talking about a particular leader, not necessarily because of anything particular other than they happened to be one of the people leaders of this. They happen to be the people leader for one of the people in this group. And we were all talking about different aspects of just uh leadership and you know, some people we like, some traits we like about a leader. And then the conversation came up about a particular person, and that they could not see them as a good leader because of these things and rattled off a whole bunch of things that made that person just a bad person and could not see that person ever as a good, effective, positive leader. And I thought, oh, wow, that's an interesting one because I hadn't seen that person in the same light. Now, given all the information I had, I still had trouble with it because I still saw this person as for me, not being the led by that person directly, as you know, uh I I kind of looked to that person as uh a positive leader for me in the some of the things that I would see and aspire to do. And then that just made it really hard because I thought, oh, knowing what I just heard, is is that should I still look at that person in the same way? Are they still could they still be effective in their other leadership qualities and capabilities? I don't know. So that's what made me think about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

That's a good yeah. I mean, that's a good analogy. Uh well, that's a good story in that, and my analogy, I and I go back to the whole art artist thing, uh, where you know there are a number of artists, and you know, it could be they could also be kind of in the conventional sense, artists in the conventional sense, where there's a couple of artists that I admire that I know. For example, Picasso, right? I love Picasso's art, but he was misogynistic and a terrible, terrible person to the women are in his life. Now, I didn't always know that, to your point, but then when that was revealed to me, yeah, there was all of a sudden a conflict about you know the things that I really liked about his work and his art, all of a sudden came into collision with this new information.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

And so I'm always torn about that. And maybe that's what you're also hinting at here is what is has become commonly known as kind of the cancel culture around us, where do we totally cancel somebody? And in this case, do we cancel a leader? Yeah, you know, being a particular type of person, yes, yes. Um clearly, there are some cultures out there in the geopolitical space that aren't doing that right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah, you know, and they can do anything, never get cancelled, and you think, how is that yeah, but but is that good leadership?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

You know, dude. This this is a conundrum. Yeah, yeah. I'm not even going to try to um close this one up with a with you know with a neat bow. No, no, but I'm just gonna leave it dangling. I don't know. I think it's an interesting what I'd love is people's response to this conversation. Yeah, yeah. Let us know. Let us know. Yeah, what what is your position around, you know, can a bad person be a good leader? Whatever you tell us, give us your logic, give us your your maybe your definitions. What is it that you mean by good leader? What is it that you mean by bad person? That would give us an opportunity to at least engage with some real life examples or maybe the positions of our leader, of our listeners to that reality. Because yeah, I have no idea. And yeah, thanks for making my brain explode. Anytime, sorry, anytime.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

I I I I love seeing it just, you know, I see the steam right now. It's great, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah, it's a good one. It's a good one. And what can I tell you? Thank you. And listeners, it's up to you. You tell us, what do you reckon? Love it, love it. And with that, we'll say slang. That is our cheeky half episode. Please let us know what you think, whether you'd like us to expand on any of these topics in our main episodes, or any other comment you might have. You can reach us on ask us at leadershipcanton.com. That's as K U S at Leadershipcanton.com. You can also leave your comments for each of our episodes on the website at leadershipcanton.com. Thanks for listening.