Self-Soothing

In this conversation, Jerry and Kristy discuss the importance of self-soothing in relationships. They define self-soothing as the ability to observe oneself and step in to soothe oneself before reacting negatively. They explore different techniques for self-soothing, such as deep breathing, listening to soothing music, spending time with pets, writing, taking baths, and going for walks. They also discuss the need for self-awareness and the importance of not reacting impulsively in triggering situations. They highlight the significance of finding a balance between self-soothing and nurturing the relationship as a couple.

Transcript

Jerry (00:01.624)
Hi, you're listening to Love Work Skills for a Relational Life. I'm your co -host, Jerry Sander, and our co -host in Salt Lake City is Kristy Gaisford. Hi, Kristy. Heya. Good to see you. Great topic today, self -soothing. A popular phrase. What do we mean by it, and how does it affect couples and individuals? Your thoughts?

Kristy (00:09.608)
Hi, Jerry. Good to see you.

Kristy (00:28.038)
Yeah, I think self -soothing is one of the most important skills that you can have in a relationship. I think that self -soothing is being able to soothe yourself in the moment. So it's like when I start to feel myself getting upset or triggered or yeah, hot, can I observe myself, which is kind of the first step.

Can I observe it as it's happening? And can I step in to soothe myself before I go off the rails or make something worse?

Jerry (01:08.098)
Wow, that is a skill. So those are actually two skills. One is to observe yourself being triggered and starting to go off. And then the second skill is to be able to offer something nicer to yourself, right?

Kristy (01:14.267)
Mm -hmm, they are.

Kristy (01:29.626)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, and I think there's two ways to look at this. I think we can talk about what are some things you can do in the moment to help you with soothing yourself. And then I think there's things that you can do not in the moment that will help you with those moments. So for example, like...

Jerry (01:51.628)
Hmm. Hmm. that's interesting. Yeah.

Kristy (01:55.33)
things that you can do over time that help you. For example, if you become, if you meditate often, you can get better at recognizing your own cues and your body and learn how to control your thoughts. So that's something that you would do. Or like trauma therapy. If you know that you have a lot of wounds and things that are easily triggered, if you do EMDR or other types of therapy, it can help.

get out of that fight or flight as quickly. And there's, I'm sure you have lots of examples too,

Jerry (02:29.539)
No, I'm agreeing with you. Go ahead.

Kristy (02:31.88)
I have clients that have done ketamine therapy that helps them a lot with their nervous system or hypnotherapy that really can help you get change your belief system so that you're not as easily reactive. Yoga, breath work, all these things that increase mindfulness and give you, help you calm your nervous system will help you over time to be less reactive.

Jerry (03:01.024)
Agreed. And I think all the body based therapy approaches or the body based soothing approaches, so the body based awarenesses are hugely important. I have a certification in bioenergetics analysis, which is an older form of body psychotherapy. And the premise, even back in the late fifties, early sixties, seventies was you are functionally

One, you can't say my mind does this and my body does that. There is one of you that functions with anxiety or depression or triggered or something like that. So the good news of that is that if you are triggered by something emotionally or that's happened to you in your mind, you can use your body to calm down.

Kristy (03:56.86)
Mm -hmm.

Jerry (03:59.106)
the unit of you -ness that is now upset because it doesn't just remain in your mind when you're triggered. It's all through you. It's coursing all through you. And that's why breathing works and yoga works and anything that calms you. Yeah.

Kristy (04:18.46)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. And it's easier to say, I mean, it's not easier. Those things are all really good. And then the true test comes in the moment when the trigger comes.

Jerry (04:23.16)
So what?

Jerry (04:33.016)
Yeah.

Yeah, now that's where you can fashion yourself as to be a very in touch, self aware, fully realized spiritual being and fly off the handle just like anybody else when someone mentions, know, weren't you fired from your second job or something like that? You know, there's the moment, there's what happens in the moment and that is a unique skill.

Kristy (04:56.029)
Mm -hmm.

Jerry (05:05.57)
to acknowledge, well, first comes self -awareness. Before we talk about the second step, how do you even develop self -awareness? know, like, it's hard to explain. It's one of those things that's like trying to explain oxygen or water or something, you know, self -awareness. It's been a minute.

Kristy (05:09.852)
Yeah, okay.

Kristy (05:21.298)
Well, like I think it helps even in boot camp when we have people ask themselves, are you a fighter, fleer or fixer? It helps you to develop self -awareness if you can look past in your past and say, yeah, what do I do when I'm in a fight or when I'm confronted? Do I hurry and leave or shut down? Do I try to make it better so that I'm not nervous about it? Or do I fight back and defend myself?

And if you can start to see what your pattern is, then when that situation comes again, you're, I'm gonna do that, I'm about to fight. I can feel that, I can feel me wanting to fight. What am I gonna do instead? And then you can even break it down to, I can feel my heart rates going up, I'm breathing faster, I can tell I'm getting agitated. I better walk out of the room before I say something.

Jerry (06:18.795)
I'm just thinking.

thinking of a client who gets triggered by any reference to status because he did really poorly in high school and then really poorly in college and then tried to just cruise on through his first few jobs and got fired. he's gotten a real, and now he's doing very well, but he's got a real sore spot when it comes to being triggered around.

Kristy (06:40.412)
Jerry (06:50.702)
feeling worthy enough or something like that. So I'm thinking that the level of awareness should be about knowing what tends to get to you. know, like if you really know from your family of origin or something that you do not like to be told what to do.

Kristy (07:05.114)
Mm -hmm, yes.

Kristy (07:15.494)
Yes.

Jerry (07:16.214)
and someone's doing it and they're pointing their finger at you and they're telling you what to do. You just know that's likely to trigger me and it is in fact triggering me. And there is a moment there where you can say, what? Now what? So I'm being triggered. And can you explain how that now what moment can go well or not well?

Kristy (07:27.912)
Mm -hmm.

Kristy (07:46.024)
Yeah, when you said that was thinking, one of my triggers is when I'm driving and I'm in a hurry and there's somebody in front of me that's going well under the speed limit, so they're really holding me up. And I've tried to say to myself, okay, practice this as a time to not be triggered. Practice fighting that feeling and just letting it go. And I guess that's a good example because

What I could do is fly off the handle and yell in my car about what an idiot this person is and why are they so slow. Or I could take a deep breath and say, I'm just going to take a moment to breathe deeply and look out the window and be grateful that I'm in a car and that things, don't, I can be a little late. It's not the end of the world.

Jerry (08:40.012)
And are you aware of both of those choices as you're saying it now?

Kristy (08:45.33)
Well, it depends. If I'm taking the time to be mindful, then I'm aware of it. If I fly off the handle first, then I didn't take the time to be aware of it.

Jerry (08:57.944)
So if you take that, yeah, go ahead.

Kristy (08:59.666)
But, well, for an example, if I know I'm working on it, then I'm going to be mindful of it before I ever get in the car. And then when I'm in the car and it happens, I'm like, yeah, this is what I've been preparing for. I'm working on not letting myself get upset in this situation. How well am I going to do? But this is...

Jerry (09:21.838)
Well, in that sense, it's a learning opportunity. It's like a growth edge kind of thing. Here's your growth right here. Boom, I'm triggered. Okay, want to grow from it here right now or do you want to just do your usual thing? Yeah, yeah.

Kristy (09:27.067)
Yep.

Kristy (09:35.952)
Yes. And that's why I think it's not just about you can't just all of sudden do it better. That's it takes daily practice. Like, okay, my partner is going to come in and question me about money. And I know that's a trigger for me and I'm going to feel controlled and maybe I'll feel belittled. So next time he asked me about money, I'm going to be very mindful of breathing and trying to really stay centered.

and listen to his perspective and not get reactive. And it's probably gonna take every muscle in my body to do that.

Jerry (10:15.412)
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned not being reactive. I want to hear more about that.

Kristy (10:21.288)
about how not to be reactive.

Jerry (10:24.631)
Yeah, like people think, well, therapists tell people to say what you're feeling, just say what you're feeling, say what you're feeling. And you're talking about not being reactive.

Kristy (10:34.834)
Yeah, because if we say what we're feeling from a reactive state, we're really saying what our immature teenage bratty self would say. We're not saying what a mature adult self would say that would make a situation better or would have a productive conversation. So if I get triggered and I start to react from that state, I might say something like,

You can't control me. I don't know who you think you are. You're the one that bought a new car. Now you're trying to control the decorations I bought. Like, it's not fair and I'm sick of this. Whatever. Whatever my reactive teenage self would say to protect me is very different than a calm, wise adult saying, I hear that you're concerned about money. Can you help me understand where you're coming from? And, and

talking about it from a place where there's actually progress made and understanding. And it's so that's why it's very different if you speak from a reactive place or.

Jerry (11:39.394)
The progress and understanding made is your own individual work though, I'm guessing you're saying.

Kristy (11:46.62)
Well, okay, I'll say this. The progress can be made if I stay in my wise adult and my partner responds well. I can't guarantee there's going to be progress if he stays reactive, but if I stay very calm and in a wise adult place, it's more likely the conversation will go well. If I react from my reactive state, there's no chance it's going to go well because I just threw lighter on the fire.

Jerry (11:55.746)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry (12:17.966)
Yeah. I think people are sometimes surprised when I say that mantra like don't speak until you can improve upon silence, which I take very seriously because when you're triggered, the odds are the first thing you want to say. It'd be better to be silent. You know, is it really meant to reach for a solution? What you're about to say is it?

Kristy (12:41.447)
Mm -hmm.

Jerry (12:47.867)
Is it generous? Is it searching for connection? No. It's just, yeah.

Kristy (12:55.078)
I mean, I tend to agree with you, but I think silence can be provocative also.

Jerry (13:00.65)
I know, so it's up to you to come up with something better to say. So, you know, don't speak until you can improve upon silence. Well now improve on it now. Say something.

Kristy (13:06.084)
Yeah, like, I'm

Kristy (13:12.178)
But even if you say that, even if you say, I'm not speaking because I don't know what to say and I don't want to make it worse. Yeah.

Jerry (13:16.62)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've said that. Yep. And I think it helps. It helps even if you can say, you know, I feel triggered right now and I don't want to make things worse. I want to reach for connection and understandings here. But I'm struggling. I'm overwhelmed right now.

Kristy (13:42.248)
Mm

Jerry (13:43.936)
I think that's, and we can illustrate this in a fight later, but I think.

That shows the next step involves some form of self -soothing. Because you can't go from being really, really angry to, all right, let's fix this thing. It doesn't work like that. It's like going from second gear to fifth gear in a car. need to, you need, yeah. And remind yourself that you are a good person dealing with a partner who's a good person. There's no bad guys in the room. These

Kristy (13:56.358)
Yes, yes.

Kristy (14:03.954)
Mm -hmm.

Kristy (14:09.286)
have a little time out.

Jerry (14:19.69)
Arguments go off the rails routinely and they end up in the same dumb place. And I want to do better. I want to reach for something better, even though I was just triggered.

Kristy (14:30.717)
Yeah.

Jerry (14:32.684)
Yeah, now that's a skill that can be cultivated, but lots of people don't know how to self soothe without intoxicants or, you know, addictive substances or something. I'm I.

Kristy (14:49.18)
And I don't even think that self -soothing, think that's numbing. I don't think it's the same thing.

Jerry (14:53.752)
Mm

Jerry (14:56.952)
So let's be more specific about what self -soothing, well, let's give some examples of what.

Kristy (15:02.416)
Mm -hmm. Well, I think the number one that you'll probably hear over and over is breathing because it really does work. It helps your parasympathetic nervous system. It really helps you to calm down, to focus on your breath. It does make all that fight or flight. It calms it down when you have to breathe slowly all the way into your diaphragm and deep into your lungs. So I think, and you can do it anywhere and at any time.

So that's probably the number one go -to is deep focused breathing.

Jerry (15:39.202)
like it.

Kristy (15:40.36)
Other things are music can calm you down. Soothing music. Pets really help people. It's hard to, I mean, if you can go hug your dog or whatever you have, pet your dog, can really help. Massage can help. Writing your feelings down can help you just kind of release them and make sense of them. Taking a long bath or a shower.

It just gives you some time away to soothe and just be quiet and still. I think going on walks for me is huge. As soon as I get outside, it gives me a bigger perspective on the world and the universe. And I'm not just consumed with my own little life in my own little house. I'm like, okay, I can breathe out here and get a different perspective. What do you think? What would you like to?

Jerry (16:34.85)
I've got about the same list. I had time with yourself, including your body as yourself, either alone or eventually with people you have no issues with. Like if you're breathing, great, meditation, great, anything by yourself, or you want to go to a yoga class and you have no issues or problem with anyone in the yoga class, just remove from anyone who's going to be a problem for you. I wrote music.

Kristy (16:47.144)
Hmm.

Kristy (16:56.754)
That's good.

Jerry (17:04.054)
And by the way, music with excellent headphones, if you haven't experienced that, you're depriving yourself. It's another universe of relaxation. Anything creative arts, you mentioned writing, drawing, clay, anything weaving, know, anything is just creating something that wasn't there before. Walking, walking, I had walking down also, either by yourself or with your dog. Bath, I'm a big fan of baths.

Kristy (17:11.941)
Mm

Kristy (17:24.642)
yeah.

Jerry (17:33.57)
Finally, I wrote down something that's quirky enjoyment, unique to you. You know that like if you tell people they go, what? That's not soothing at all. Well, might be to you. Really.

Kristy (17:47.418)
Yeah, I actually forgot I wrote that too. Like I put cook cooking a puzzle, playing an instrument, reading. I don't know what other Kirk quirky thing you have working in the garden. Yeah, what's yours?

Jerry (17:57.292)
Yeah, well, I will watch seven seasons of The Sopranos every episode in I think it's seven seasons, six, seven in order. You know, it'll take a long time to get through, but every now and then in my life, I'll say that was excellent.

Kristy (18:10.079)
Seven.

Jerry (18:23.468)
I'm gonna just do that for me. And I know no one else wants to see it with me other than me. And that's pretty quirky. You're gonna relax by watching that? It's like, -huh. And the reason is because I'm not helping anyone. I'm not cleaning up the environment. I'm not doing tasks. I'm not worried about teaching something. I'm just, it's totally self -indulgent, weird, quirky thing.

Kristy (18:36.05)
You

Kristy (18:48.476)
Relaxing.

Jerry (18:52.792)
But if you said to other people, hey, doesn't that sound really self -soothing? They'd go, no. No, it doesn't. But you've got everyone listening has something. It doesn't matter anyone else's judgment about it. If alphabetizing the spice rack works for you and you feel more relaxed and centered afterwards, yay, go for it. That's what I think.

Kristy (19:12.732)
That's true, a lot of people like cleaning. I like poetry. It helps me kind of calm down.

Jerry (19:19.82)
No, that's nice. That's really nice. Now how to come, go ahead.

Kristy (19:22.726)
I also think, sorry, I was just gonna say, if you can't find it within yourself, it can really help to listen to a podcast or a book that helps you get, you a better perspective of somebody who is in their wise, mature adult self, and you can kind of borrow their wisdom.

Jerry (19:40.524)
Now that's a great, that's, you can borrow their calm. You can just like, I'm not calm, but they are. So I'm gonna borrow some of that.

Kristy (19:45.393)
Yes.

Kristy (19:50.3)
Yes.

Totally. And we need that when we're really upset.

Jerry (19:58.444)
Yeah, I mean, I actually it sounds hilarious, but when I get extreme about something, I will conjure up the memory of Fred Rogers and ask myself, well, how would Mr. Rogers handle this? You know, and I've seen interviews with his wife and his son saying, he wasn't an angel. You know, he had challenges in his life. He got upset and stuff. But yeah, finding someone who, you know, has some.

Kristy (20:08.854)
yeah.

Jerry (20:26.392)
greater degree of calm than you and sort of borrowing some of that. Obviously, some people do that religiously or spiritually to or through some sort of teacher. OK, whatever it takes so that the next words out of your mouth after you're triggered are not something that's going to make it worse. And this has implications for a couple, because I wrote here people get angry that their partner doesn't sue them. You know,

Kristy (20:45.082)
Yes.

Jerry (20:56.128)
And it's called self -soothing for a reason. Like, I don't think it's fair to be angry at your partner for your irritated state.

Kristy (21:09.19)
Yeah, I agree. And I will say, think if you are, if you do self soothe, then it is a really advanced skill that if you're calm, it does calm your partner. That's like one of those consequences, added benefits of it is it is pretty calming to a partner if you can self soothe.

Jerry (21:30.889)
That's a radical idea. We transformed it from, you're not making me soothed to I'm going to be soothed. And where do you see what that feels like?

So how do couples get caught up in arguing about self -soothing? Because couples can argue about everything, right? They do.

Kristy (21:55.608)
they say stuff like, you need to calm down when they're not calm themselves, yeah.

Jerry (22:01.198)
that's a good one. Okay, that's a good one. I think we can do a good fight here. Yeah.

Kristy (22:06.522)
Okay, I do too. Yeah.

Jerry (22:11.138)
Hmm.

Jerry (22:17.144)
How about I'm gonna go off to my writers group and you're really not calm and triggered and upset about something. we'll, I don't know. I don't know. You choose what to be upset about, you know? But, and then we'll do it. We'll correct it, but we'll show how it goes wrong typically. Okay, Christie, so I'm off to writers group.

Kristy (22:28.946)
Okay, not about that. About something... Okay.

Jerry (22:46.22)
Now I'm working on that new little novella of mine and I'll be back in like two and a half hours. Okay.

Kristy (22:55.13)
Okay, of course you are.

Jerry (22:58.318)
What do mean, of course I am?

Kristy (23:00.358)
Of course, I mean nothing. Nothing. Yeah, nothing. Forget it.

Jerry (23:02.996)
Nothing? do you... Why am I feeling like it is something?

Kristy (23:08.006)
I just feel like... nevermind. I don't even want to talk about it.

Jerry (23:11.242)
No, what do mean never mind? That's so, you don't want to talk about it. You just want to like allude to it and then say go have a nice writers group.

Kristy (23:19.696)
I just feel like everything, you always have something that you're off to and there's never any time for me and everything's more important than me. I'm off, but on my motorcycle ride, my riders group, my massage, my taking my kids to the play, they're all good things, Jerry, but where's the time for me?

Jerry (23:28.247)
I told you to

Jerry (23:34.786)
Was it bet? What?

I don't know, where's the time for you? You're asking me where's the time for you to give time to you?

Kristy (23:46.33)
No, no, where's the time for you to give time to me? Where's the time for you to prioritize our relationship? I can't take it without you. You're always gone.

Jerry (23:51.054)
Take it, just take the time. You can't self -soothe.

Kristy (23:58.466)
What do you mean self -soothe? I'm upset because you're never here.

Jerry (24:00.301)
What is it?

You just need to relax. You just need to relax. You were so tense, you don't even read, you don't even know how tense you were.

Kristy (24:06.704)
I just need to relax.

You're not even hearing what I'm saying.

Jerry (24:13.25)
I'm hearing it. I'm hearing a hard time about me going to do something that in my own interest because you don't have anything like that. And it's like this pity party or something like you want an award for, you know, not for being tense, most tense person.

Kristy (24:30.28)
You're my god, you're ignoring why I'm tense. I'm tense because you leave me every night.

Kristy (24:43.644)
Yeah.

Jerry (24:44.937)
Gosh, that didn't take much risk. That was easy. See how easy this is, folks, to take a simple thing and go to hell. Yeah. OK. So we're going to.

Kristy (24:54.008)
And it could go on and on. You see how it could just go on and on.

Jerry (24:59.872)
Yeah. So how on earth would this be corrected so that both people end up better and as a couple too?

Kristy (25:14.792)
So we're both supposed to self -soothe or am I supposed to be better?

Jerry (25:20.524)
oath.

Jerry (25:23.862)
All right, Kristy, so I'm headed off to the writers group. About two and a half hours, I'm working on that novella. I'm trying to think of a title for it. Something creative, you know? I don't know.

Kristy (25:36.338)
All right, I wonder if, have a good time. I'm wondering if when you get back we can talk about something that's been on my mind.

Jerry (25:42.872)
Thank you.

Jerry (25:47.66)
Yeah, well, actually, I could talk about it now because I'm a little worried. Like I have all these things that I'm doing deliberately. I'm putting them in my life deliberately because it helped me relax and I can get pretty tense, but I'm aware that I don't think you have as many of those things. I don't know. I don't know. Is that what you wanted to talk about?

Kristy (26:16.358)
Yeah, I wanted to talk about it, now I kind of, I don't know, feel like maybe you just, what I make up that you just said is that my life's not as full and interesting as yours, so.

Jerry (26:35.774)
I want to hear.

what it is in your words, not my words.

Kristy (26:44.924)
Well, I just, I feel like it's great that you have all these interests, but I don't feel like there's, you prioritize time for us to be together and do things as a couple. feel like all your interests are, are solo interests. And I don't want to take those away from you, but I don't, I also feel left a lot. Like when is, when is, when is our time together to be a couple?

Jerry (27:13.838)
Well, we need, I mean, okay. Actually think that's a legitimate question. think it's, I've been feeling that too, but I'm having a hard time balancing being tense and stressed out, not being tense and stressed out because I'm trying to self soothe by doing things that I know that will work for me and also have time for us. And it's, I'm not sure I'm getting the ratio right at all.

And it's just all an experiment and a work in progress for me. I do need, I welcome feedback about that, but I don't think we want different things.

Kristy (27:54.056)
How, if you're tense and stressed out, can you help me understand how adding more and more to your plate helps with that?

Jerry (27:58.541)
Yeah.

Jerry (28:04.332)
Yeah, because it's different stuff. It's more managed. It's somehow okay to think about what happens in a short story I'm writing, where it's not me worrying, is this country going to hell and going to end on November 6th or something like that? I get very out there with tension. I don't always talk about it.

Kristy (28:30.536)
Hmm.

Jerry (28:31.168)
And so having something small that I could manage, it's almost like breathing. I just sort of breathe into my characters and I write them or something.

Kristy (28:40.304)
Is that what's stressing you out? Big world issues?

Jerry (28:43.512)
That's one of the things that's stressing me out. I've got like nine things, you know? I don't generally run around saying here's nine things that are stressing me out, but I take it seriously that it's sort of up to me to put these things in my life to help me relax. But I hear that you're saying I do that to the extent of taking time away from working in a relationship.

Kristy (29:07.302)
I mean, I'll be honest with you, I guess I feel hurt that I'm not one of the things that soothes you.

that instead of turning to me, turn to all these other things. And the other things are fine. don't want to take those away from you, but I guess I would hope that I would hold a place for that.

Jerry (29:29.336)
Well, yeah, I mean, but not all the time, always seven days a week. It means like, like you, you know, you're a therapist and sometimes hearing about anything about that work. I know it's I think it's good for you to share it, but not always the same for me as if it was a long bath or something. You know, it's like I think it's a balancing act.

Kristy (29:32.86)
No.

Kristy (29:58.845)
Yeah.

Jerry (29:59.116)
Like how, you know what, what actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the, the F word fun, you know, like there needs to be more fun. It needs to be more fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be fun. And, it's almost like, like, I guess self soothing can be a trap if it's all self soothing. Cause I think what you're introducing is there self soothing and then there's.

Kristy (30:10.094)
I agree. Maybe we could talk about things, how to have more fun.

Kristy (30:24.594)
Yeah.

Jerry (30:29.248)
a partnership self -soothing, like the us so self -soothing. Is that what you're meaning kind of?

Kristy (30:40.422)
Yeah, like if you're really stressed that I would hope I would be like a soft space for you to come and feel less stressed by hanging out with me.

Jerry (30:48.504)
But what about you? What about when you're really stressed? I do you have, if I'm not available, what do you have for you?

Kristy (30:55.612)
Yeah, I go in the long run and... No, I... Yeah, I go for a walk or a long run and it does help. I'm not suggesting I should be it. I just hope there's a place for us together and it's not all alone.

Jerry (30:57.42)
I'm not saying that like combatively, I really want to know, I care.

Jerry (31:12.93)
Yeah, and this year feels more difficult than last year in terms of finding that time and space. So I think we're going to have to just adjust on the fly and actually figure out how to do that together so that I don't lose some of the things I'm interested in. You don't lose things that work for you, but there's also a together thing.

Kristy (31:34.012)
Yeah, that works. I think that that's great. I think we could maybe look at the calendar together and just make sure we have time that we set aside for our relationship.

Jerry (31:43.34)
Yeah.

Honestly, I want to ask you still feel okay about me going to the writers group tonight because if not, I will not go. It's not like life or death for me.

Kristy (31:56.314)
No, I honestly feel fine about it. Thanks for talking about it. I do. I'm okay.

Jerry (32:02.104)
Okay. All right, good. Good. More later, huh? Okay.

Jerry (32:13.166)
So where was the turning point in all that?

Kristy (32:16.36)
The first one I noticed is when you said something about that my concern was legitimate, that you could see why I would feel that way. I felt like immediately calm because you validated instead of arguing. And so I felt like I didn't have to argue my point anymore because you acknowledged it.

What about you?

Jerry (32:43.394)
Well, it threw me because I thought you were gonna talk. I expected you to say, like, I have things I wanna do for self -soothing too and I never get to do it because you know I'm doing X, Y, Z. And instead you started talking about the us. And that threw me, like, what? But, actually, in real life, honestly, I started thinking about my father who was never home.

Kristy (32:57.223)
Jerry (33:09.614)
And he was always home doing things that presumably were self -soothing and What you were talking about was exactly that situation But I'm thinking like there reaches a point which so much, know quote self soothing unquote Can just look like the person doesn't want to be around the other person

Kristy (33:21.405)
Mmm.

Kristy (33:33.628)
Yeah. Yep.

Jerry (33:36.152)
And I think that issue of what do you do to nurture the couple with self -soothing? It's not self -soothing anymore, couple -soothing. Maybe we need to do a whole podcast about couple -soothing. Because people tend to think, you mean sex? It's like, no, sex may or may not be one way, but bowling may or may not be one way, too. There's lots of different ways of being together.

And I think everyone needs, I think everyone needs some time alone and everyone needs time together. And the ratio varies as we know, like people who are boundaryless and super needy. it's almost like terrifying for them to be totally alone. That's like, need a hundred percent time together and other people are walled off. like, they do a hundred percent time alone.

Kristy (34:11.858)
Yeah.

Kristy (34:27.89)
Yes.

Jerry (34:37.688)
Yeah. Fascinating.

Kristy (34:41.434)
It is. That was good though. Good, very different conversations.

Jerry (34:44.514)
Yeah, good, good talk. Hey, we should mention we're doing boot camps in, let's see, by the time, yeah, September 28th and 29th in New York City. New York City, which is awesome, in autumn, it's a cool place to be, I can't explain why even, it's still noisy, it's something in the air. Yeah, just listen to any recording of autumn in New York.

Kristy (34:51.899)
yeah.

Kristy (34:56.774)
Yes, the big apple.

Kristy (35:03.421)
There's something in the air. I love it. I love the fall in New York

Jerry (35:11.839)
And then October, Western Massachusetts, which should be all leafy and beautiful there.

Kristy (35:17.69)
October 26th and 27th.

Jerry (35:20.546)
Yeah, on the grounds of Smith College, which is a beautiful, beautiful school and the town of Northampton. There's like five, five sister schools, seven sister schools around there. It's an amazing community. You've never seen the Pioneer Valley of Massachusetts. So come out and work on yourself. This stuff is work. I don't want to lie. It's not just like come hang out with us and eat pettifors or something.

It's like work and we know how to help you do it.

Kristy (35:53.97)
Yeah, and it's constructive work. It makes life better. It's work that's worth it. Yeah.

Jerry (35:59.132)
my gosh, the rewards. Well, I'll see you next time, Kristy. Thank you. See ya. Bye.

Kristy (36:04.42)
Okay, take care, Jerry. Thanks. Bye.

Jerry (36:10.09)
Stop.