The Space Between Our Two Realities

Sometimes it is hard to believe we are on the same planet, witnessing the same things as our partner but ending up with very different perspectives. Kristy and Jerry consider the "space between" and consider how best to handle differences about "Reality" when it comes to life in the here-and-now with a partner. 

Transcript

Jerry (00:00)
Hi, you're listening to LoveWorks Skills for a Relational Life. I'm Jerry Sander. Hi, Kristy. This is Kristy Gaisford. We're enduring a cold winter out here. How about you?

Kristy (00:06)
Hi, Jerry.

I mean, it feels cold, but it hasn't been very snowy at all.

Jerry (00:20)
Yeah.

I woke up, it was 18 degrees and I was going up to 25. I had clients in Maine who told me it was like seven or eight up there, you know. How does my venting for the day? You have a great topic you suggested and it really affects kind of, it's there in almost every couples therapy session I do. And I guess that you do too. Why don't you explain it?

Kristy (00:23)
that is cold.

that's brittle.

Yeah, the title is The Space Between Our Two Realities. And I've just been noticing that I'm just really convinced that almost none, almost nobody ever sees themselves really clearly. Like we are all blocked by our own ego and our own defense mechanisms and defensiveness and everything gets filtered through.

those lenses. And so as a therapist, I have this view of being neutral and at least, you know, mostly and I'm watching somebody say something and then it kind of gets twisted and into the other person receives it and they're like, no, no, that's not what happened. No, that's not how I, that's not what I said. No, that's not what you did. And it's, and then vice versa, right? And

I'm just sitting there watching it happen thinking there is no objective reality here and there's nothing you could do to convict for one of them to convince the other that they're wrong because that is their reality. And I think what we need to do is accept the fact that we all have blind spots and the really like the bigger our ego defenses, the bigger our blind spots.

Jerry (02:16)
You

Kristy (02:17)
So

the more we get into like, no, that's not what happened. You don't get it. I mean, that could be true. But also what's also true is we're not seeing our stuff either.

Jerry (02:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about reality for a second. You know, I think one of the frustrations of young therapists have when they're starting couples therapy or starting to do couples therapy instead of individual therapy is can we just agree on what really happened? Can we agree on reality? Something happened that shop right at two 30 last Thursday and you're both reporting really different events.

Could we just get it straight and get reality going? And what you're saying and I found is the answer is no. We're not going to get reality with a capital R. You're going to get two separate reports based on that person's entire seven layer cake, I call it, you know, of their past, their previous relationships, their mood, their fine.

Kristy (03:19)
Yes.

their personality.

Jerry (03:27)
their personality, their finances, you know, and they're going to report it with authenticity. This is what happened. That's how they're going to report it. This is what happened. They don't usually say this is what I feel happened. This is what happened.

Kristy (03:45)
And to them, that is what happened. And so I also think it's not helpful to say, to tell someone they're lying, or you're gaslighting me. That's not what happened. You're gaslighting me. I don't know if you've been hearing that lately, but I have. But it's not gaslighting either, because that's really what they believe happened. That's their experience.

Jerry (03:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you're

talking about someone speaking their truth and why wouldn't they? And this is therapy, aren't I supposed to speak my truth? And then they get sort of dismayed, like, I can't believe that person there will not acknowledge the truth. I've just spoken the truth. That is what happened. Why can't you acknowledge it? And then it's their turn to speak and they come in with a totally different story.

Kristy (04:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yep. And this is very hard to do because our egos are there to protect us. They've protected us our whole lives, but they cause a lot of problems. And unless we can really get our ego out of the way. And I mean, I almost think you have to take yourself completely out of the picture as if you weren't there and say to your partner, say to your partner, OK, like

Jerry (05:03)
that's interesting. more about that.

Kristy (05:08)
I'm going to take Christy and I'm going to put her in a different room. This is what I'm thinking. And now I'm going to be just a random friend or observer. And I'm going to say like, with open curiosity, tell me what's going on with you. What happened? What are you feeling? Like something didn't go well back there. What was your experience of that?

And instead of filtering everything they say through, that's not what happened. No, that's not right. That's not what I said. No, I can't believe you're saying that. instead of like you're not in the room anymore. You put yourself out in the hall and then you're just absorbing their their experience and you're going, wow, this is what they think happened. Or this is their experience of what happened. It might be crazy to me from my perspective.

But I better understand it if they're my partner and I want to connect with them. And if I can do that and say, my gosh, and the thing is you have to have the humility that you're not right either. That as off as they sound to you, you sound to them. Like you really do.

Jerry (06:21)
Well, I mean, the problem

is when you're convinced you are totally right, you know you're right, you know, that conviction, particularly if someone feels that what happened wronged them, that, you you were flat out wrong, you stomped on my feelings, you owe me an apology. Don't try and, you know, twist it or gaslight me or something like that. Don't try and soften it.

I know what happened, I'm entitled to an apology. So it's very hard to remove yourself from the room then when you're feeling kind of injured and self-righteous, right?

Kristy (06:58)
Well, I mean,

I think this is hard to do anytime. is like, it's, what we're talking about is very difficult to do. However, yeah, however, it's the, it's the best way to, come back to each other. If you can honestly, with sincerity and humility, listen to your partner and really want to understand where they're coming from.

Jerry (07:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's definitely advanced class,

Well, that's key, isn't it? You want to understand.

Kristy (07:29)
But you really do, you really do

have to kill your ego because your ego is like really wants to be right. Really, really, really wants to be right and prove themselves right and defend yourself. And so that's why it's so difficult. The ego is very strong.

Jerry (07:50)
I would suggest people take a breath and look at their partner and ask themselves, am I really interested in understanding what they're feeling about what happened back there? Am I really interested in it or am I just wanting to vent and assert my own version? Because you can't do both at the same time. You can't aggressively assert and vent.

and also be interested in your partner's version, not at the same moment.

Kristy (08:23)
No, or pout,

or pout and withdraw. There's a lot of withdrawing too.

Jerry (08:28)
Yeah, fine. Let's not talk about it. Let's just be resentful for three days, you know? So something has to happen that acknowledges something happened back there. And there has to be a love of the couple, a love of us strong enough to want to figure out how we went off the road there. What was it that happened?

to us or with us.

Kristy (08:59)
Is that what would motivate you? The love of the couple?

Jerry (09:03)
Yeah, that I don't like it when it's like this. You know, I felt hurt. Maybe you felt hurt. I don't know what you felt, but I felt wronged. I don't like it when the relationship is like this. In other words, this is definitely not the best version of us. And I want the best version of us.

Kristy (09:24)
I like that

a lot. It wouldn't work as well for me because I have to first contend with my own ego before I care about the relationship. I have to, for me, I have to say you see how everybody that you work with is blind to themselves and you are too because you're a human. So what are you missing?

Jerry (09:37)
yeah. How do you do that? Yeah.

Kristy (09:54)
how can you try to hear what your partner's experience of you is? Because you're gonna hear some things that aren't easy to hear. You're gonna get feedback that is hard to hear. But if you can get there, there's gonna be real healing. And also, if your partner feels heard, they're gonna then be able to hear you.

Jerry (10:15)
like them.

Kristy (10:20)
but if not, you're both just gonna be defending your own position and get further and further apart.

Jerry (10:27)
So there needs to be a mechanism, a way of doing that. I'm just thinking though, that as I'm listening to you, it's beautiful what you just said. And it's very difficult for anyone who has a history of any kind of grandiosity at all. If you've ever been enabled in that direction towards grandiosity, it's very hard because in those moments of hurt, the grandiosity gets triggered. Like a residue of like how to...

How dare you do this to me? Even if you've been working on that for years in your therapy and you're not generally a grandiose person anymore, it's hard to let the ego melt in those instances. That's why I think the way I have to find into it is thinking about caring for the relationship. But I guess still,

Kristy (11:20)
That's good.

Jerry (11:24)
what needs to happen is some mechanism wherein you listen to your partner, not just to hear what they think happened, but hear how it affected them emotionally.

Kristy (11:40)
Yeah, hear what the story that they made up and the feelings they had about it and the way that they saw you and interpreted your actions. Actually, I had a session last night. It was a perfect example of this. was like, they both shared their point of view, one and then the other. And they both made up these pretty elaborate stories.

and there was no communication between them. So they were both reacting to stories they'd made up in their own mind about what was happening. And neither of them had actually talked about it. And so the stories grew until there was like an eruption. But it's just such a good example that we all are living our own story and we are the hero in our own story or the victim. Like, I can't believe

Jerry (12:30)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristy (12:38)
He still didn't clean the bathroom when he told me he was going to. And he's like, can't believe she didn't see that I did all the dishes. And everybody thinks they did the right thing.

Jerry (12:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, you've heard me speak about failure to be me syndrome. There, there's a lot of that here. Like, I can't believe you're seeing it so differently than me. I can't believe it. What is wrong with you? You know, I mean, that's the subject. What is wrong with you that you are seeing this so differently than me? And the hard part for couples to accept is that you're wearing two different color sunglasses.

Kristy (13:09)
Yeah.

Jerry (13:23)
And his dark brown sunglasses, yours is green sunglasses, looks different. And who's

Kristy (13:30)
Yeah, that's why

I love the Enneagram because it explains all nine lenses and why you're never going to see things the same way. Because your personality structure is so different. You can't see it the same way. Even if you tried, you just wouldn't. So it kind of gives some forgiveness and understanding of like, okay, let's just hear what it is instead of

Jerry (13:39)
Ha

And they actually use the word lenses. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kristy (14:00)
trying to think it should be a certain lens.

Jerry (14:05)
So your personality, you don't have to agree about Enneagrams to appreciate this, your personality predisposes you to interpret actual experience in a certain light. And that's different from your partner who has their own Enneagram number or personality. And both people feel that to be their reality. So it's not

Kristy (14:18)
Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry (14:33)
Reality capital R that's one thing people can agree on it's more like this is what it seems like to me and

Kristy (14:41)
Exactly. And

that's why if you can have curiosity, there's room for both of your realities instead of this tug of war of who's right, who's wrong, who's lying, who's gaslighting, who's remembering incorrectly. It's just like, okay, I can see how you got that out of it.

Jerry (14:56)
Yeah,

these this is hard stuff to correct right because

Kristy (15:01)
it's very hard.

Yeah.

Jerry (15:05)
Often someone's triggered your partner's true, but your partner whom you love is triggered in a way that's authentic to their experience. When you feel you were doing nothing wrong at all. so the conflict becomes, I can't believe you did that versus what are you talking about? What drugs are you on? I did nothing wrong at all. And that's the makings of a fight.

Kristy (15:17)
Yes.

I'm kind of glad you brought that up because I hear that a lot too. Like, well, I didn't do anything wrong. So what am I supposed to apologize for? They're getting upset for nothing. And I just again to highlight, it doesn't matter if you did anything wrong or not, your partners hurt. And so that's what matters. Your partner's feelings doesn't matter if you think you did something wrong. You can still say, are you, it looks like you're hurt. Did I hurt your feelings?

ask them. Then they say, well, I don't want to ask them because I don't want to hear what they have to say. I don't want them to get mad at me, but they're already mad. So the only way.

Jerry (16:11)
They're mad

and you are not like a little child who's getting a failing grade on a report card or being disciplined by a teacher. You're a fellow adult in the relationship who should be caring about how your partner feels. Now that's not to mean you have to sign on to, officially agree to see it the way she sees it.

Kristy (16:35)
Yes, right. But you're right. I like that you said that. Like I'm an adult. can take feedback. I mean, it sounds so simple and yet it's hard in practice.

Jerry (16:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we've seen this, that a half of a couple puts themselves in a role where they're interacting with their spouse as if it's their opposite sex parent and that they're being disapproved of or, you know, what kind of daughter behaves that way or something like that, instead of two adults who have different sunglasses on and different experiences. And so I think you're doing well if you can listen to your partner.

Kristy (16:59)
Yes.

Jerry (17:17)
understand with empathy, make a statement of, I could see how you'd feel that way, even though you didn't experience it anything like that.

Kristy (17:32)
Yeah, and you can say that you can say, you can say, wow, okay, now that I hear the way that you saw that or experienced that, I can see why that was really upsetting to you. And then you could even say, I had a different experience, would you be open to me sharing my experience with you?

Jerry (17:33)
That's the hard part.

Yeah.

I love

that. I think that's important. I think that's important. I have a good example for a fight we can do in a minute, you know, but I think that's important because the space between us, you know, is kind of the theme here. And this can quickly grow into feelings of being massively misunderstood or...

Kristy (17:58)
Okay.

Yes.

Jerry (18:16)
maligned or something, or like you're always accusing me of this. can go into the laundry list of, you know, ways that we argue, or it can be a healing.

Kristy (18:34)
Yes.

Jerry (18:34)
Wait, you want to try a fight here? Yeah. Okay. So here's the situation that comes to mind. A client told me about this. he had been sort of, I'm exaggerating. This is my clients. If you're listening, I know this is not the exact situation. I'm extrapolating on it. He had been sort of told that he ignores his wife with some regularity, just ignores her and worked

Kristy (18:37)
Yeah, let's do it.

Jerry (19:04)
to reverse that by asking how things were going for her.

unbeknownst to him, he did that as he was walking out of the room. So she felt like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that was a good example of seeing things differently. And I thought we could role play that going negatively and then a good repair instead.

Kristy (19:17)
got it. As for functor, you don't really care because you're walking out of the room.

Okay, so how do you want the fight to start?

Jerry (19:45)
Maybe you reiterating how Ayah's partner never checks in with her, seems to care, cares about everything else more.

Kristy (19:54)
Okay.

Okay. It just doesn't seem like you still never check in with me. Like I don't even remember the last time you really asked me how I was doing.

Jerry (20:08)
I absolutely checked in with you. I checked in with you yesterday. Right after lunch, I asked how things were going.

Kristy (20:17)
Exactly. You might say like, how does that going or how was your day? But you never say like, how are you doing? Like, how am I doing on the inside?

Jerry (20:22)
Yeah.

now I gotta say

those words. How are you doing on the inside?

Kristy (20:30)
No, it's not that

you have to say those words, it's that it shows that you don't care. You're acting all put out because I'm asking you to care how I feel. Oh, okay. No, I said you're acting put out because I'm telling you how I feel right now.

Jerry (20:36)
Well, wait, wait, you're telling me how I feel? You're telling me how I feel that I don't care?

Well now I'm getting triggered. So wait, so if I don't ask about how you're doing, I'm ignoring you, when I do ask about how you're doing, I don't really care? I sound terrible.

Kristy (20:58)
No, you're not, you... I said, you might say, how did that thing go? But you don't say, like, how are you?

Jerry (21:13)
did ask, how are you doing?

Kristy (21:17)
Are you talking about yesterday when you said it as you were walking out of the door? You're like, how are you? And then you left the room.

Jerry (21:24)
Well, I wasn't expecting a long conversation. I was checking in.

Kristy (21:33)
Okay, well, I don't feel like you care if you're walking out the door as you're asking me. That means it's like, I want to check. Well, you might as well have, because you didn't stay to hear my answer.

Jerry (21:40)
could have just walked out the door.

Alright, I will from now on.

Kristy (21:53)
Alright.

Jerry (21:57)
Okay, that didn't get too worked out, did it?

Kristy (22:00)
No.

Jerry (22:01)
Sorry.

All right, let's see how this could be repaired.

Kristy (22:10)
Okay, should I start it the same way? Okay, I just don't feel like, I still don't feel like you check in with me. Like I don't know the last time you actually asked me how I was doing. And all through the holidays, I was like taking care of everything and you never asked me like, how are you?

Jerry (22:12)
Yeah, yeah.

But I checked.

But I checked in with you yesterday. I asked you how were things going?

Kristy (22:33)
when

Yeah, you said how did that interview go, but you don't say how are you. There's a difference.

Jerry (22:45)
I don't... how?

Okay, I didn't use those words. I was trying to respond to the feedback you'd give me in the couples therapy session that I don't make you a high enough priority to ask and even inquire. So I did try. I feel like I'm getting blasted for trying because I didn't use the right words.

Are you taking this as like a negative? What I guess, let me try and regroup here.

I don't understand really where you're coming from or what you're feeling. I don't like this when we get like this. I would really like to understand better. Maybe I can just listen to you can explain and then you listen and I'll explain what it feels like, you know?

Kristy (23:46)
Okay, I'm telling you, I don't feel like you check in with me and ask how I'm doing. And if you say, how did that interview go? I see that you're showing some interest in like checking in on my life, which is, I guess that's a step in the right direction. But it's different than you wanting to know how I'm doing as a human being. Like, how am I doing?

How am I feeling? How am I holding up under the pressure of the holidays and everything I've had on my plate? It's just like, yeah, how did that thing go? And then you're like walking out the door as you ask me. So it doesn't, it's not conducive to me actually opening up to you as a friend and telling you how I'm doing. It's like, hey, I'm walking out to the trash. How did that interview go? And I'm like, good, thanks. And then you walk out and then it's like you want a gold star for checking in on me, but I don't feel any closer to you.

I didn't, where was I supposed to open up to you in that moment?

Jerry (24:49)
Hmm. How does that leave you feeling?

Kristy (24:55)
Like you don't really care. You're just throwing the question out there because Jerry told you to and you're not and I, and that's great that you did something Jerry told you to, but it doesn't make me feel seen or heard.

Jerry (25:01)
Yeah.

So what would have made it better?

Kristy (25:17)
If you asked me, how are you doing? I know this has been a stressful time. And then you stayed there and looked in my eyes and waited for me to answer.

Jerry (25:30)
So if I didn't have enough time for that then I shouldn't have done that then.

Kristy (25:34)
Right.

Jerry (25:36)
but maybe asked if we could talk later on.

Yeah, I can see how that would be.

upsetting, like actually angering and maybe even worse than if I'd not said anything. I didn't think of it that way, but hearing you explain it, if I were you, I can understand that. I wasn't really aware that I was walking out the door. Then I think about it now, I probably was, I had something I had to do at one o'clock.

Yeah, I can get it. Can you hear what you're welcome? Can you hear what it was like for me? It was like, I was just thinking of five things that I was supposed to be doing. And then I remembered, you know, Jerry saying, make your wife a higher priority than the other things that you're doing. And I stopped and I thought, yeah, all right, let me do that right now.

Kristy (26:17)
Thank you.

Jerry (26:44)
Let me ask her how things are going.

thought it was a good thing and progress anyway.

I don't know, like I just can't completely change overnight my whole way I am. I guess I, I don't know. So it felt like a little defeat for me to hear that it was a problem, you know?

Kristy (27:18)
Yeah, I can understand your perspective that you stopped and made an effort and then you were criticized for it.

Jerry (27:27)
Yeah.

Well, I think we do okay when we talk like this, you know? I like this, that could be onward and upward and it's better when we have a regular time to talk or to really talk and I will try to. You know, you've seen that I'm working on this as an issue in my life, just being mindful of where I am, not doing five things at once, giving one...

my full attention. This is an ongoing growth edge for me. And I'm sorry it impacted you. Impacted us. Impacted us.

Kristy (28:14)
No, I get it. think it's just, I need to work. I'm being patient because it's been so many years. It's hard for me to just.

Jerry (28:23)
It's gotta be hard to just let go of it, you know, or I guess just you can tell like when I'm really asking and when I'm

I guess also guys sometimes talk differently. Like we talk like, how you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. All good. All good here, you know? And that's, I know.

Kristy (28:44)
Yeah, but that's... I get it, but that's

not how I want to be with my partner.

Jerry (28:49)
Yeah, I get it. I get it. All right, thank you.

Kristy (28:55)
Yeah, thank you. We appreciate it.

Jerry (28:59)
Okay, so where did that go well? How did that turn around?

Kristy (29:04)
when you slowed down and stopped being defensive and got curious.

Jerry (29:11)
Yep. Yep. In a sense, it was a realization there's no winning a fight like this. You know, you will always see it and experience it as you did and me as I did. So it's like asking whose sunglasses were correct. It's got to be like a way out of it.

Kristy (29:21)
Right.

Jerry (29:38)
And I think that's the responsibility of each individual is in this kind of caught conflict is each have to reach for a way out of it.

Kristy (29:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you listening to me allowed me to calm down and then hear your perspective, but if you had tried sooner, I would have not wanted to hear it. I would have just heard it as defensiveness.

Jerry (30:05)
Yeah. And things that would have made this worse that I didn't go in the direction of is a list of the things I had to do after one o'clock is times when you said something to me as you were walking out the door. You know what I mean? No, but these are real. It's like no one here is an angel, you know, and no one's completely the devil and flawed. These are flawed human beings hurting each other. And I think that's what we have to get.

Kristy (30:17)
Yeah, none of those would have helped.

Jerry (30:34)
Like when your partner's been hurt, may not be evident that they're hurt. It may seem like they're just pissed off or disapprove of you or grading you harshly, you know?

Kristy (30:48)
Yeah.

Jerry (30:50)
But if you scratch the surface, it's usually hurt, yeah.

Kristy (30:50)
And

Right, that's why everything we said, it's like, if you can address the hurt and leave the rest of the story and the ego out of it, you can repair. It's just about going to their feelings. I'm sorry you're hurt.

Jerry (31:08)
Yeah.

Yeah. If you think about it, like, like when you're dead and gone on your tombstone, do you want like that person was a wonderful partner or do you want, they were right about what happened in the doorway back in, you know, 2025. Yeah. This person was right 90 % of the time.

Kristy (31:24)
Or this person always insisted on being right. This person never, yeah,

they never apologized ever.

Jerry (31:36)
wow. Yeah, we can think of famous figures who never apologize, but we'll have more of that coming. So boot camps, we have these boot camps coming up and they are cool because it's many people in a room working on the same stuff and bringing their honesty and all the challenges of relationships into one room as we walk through this model of how to do it together.

Kristy (31:40)
You

Yes.

Jerry (32:03)
I've got one coming up February 1st and 2nd in Northampton, Massachusetts. And you.

Kristy (32:10)
Yeah, March 1st and 2nd in Salt Lake City.

Jerry (32:13)
And then we're both doing it together in East Lansing, right? Michigan.

Kristy (32:19)
Yeah, in Michigan,

you have April 5th and 6th and then the end of April in New York City.

Jerry (32:26)
in

New York City. Yeah. So if you can bring yourself to one of these, either as an individual or as a couple, you will not.

Kristy (32:35)
Or

if you've been to one and you can tell a friend about them, if you think somebody would benefit.

Jerry (32:40)
Yeah, most definitely.

And it's not, you know, a therapy intensive where you're to sit in the middle of a circle and, you know, talk about the most intimate details of your life with other people watching. It is not that it is more like educationally instructive of how do we get beyond the way we were raised and what we saw growing up, which none of us were taught. Yeah.

Kristy (33:01)
Yeah, and it

is really healing to realize you're normal. You're just a human like everybody else.

Jerry (33:07)
Yeah.

Kind of nice you can exhale, you know, because there's always that moment in the boot camps where people look around the room going, I'm not the most messed up one here. Right? There's that person. But that person is thinking it too. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So good. Thank you, Chrissy. We will see you in a couple of weeks.

Kristy (33:12)
Yeah.

Or we all have our own version of messed up. Yeah.

Yeah, take care. Thanks. Okay. Bye.

Jerry (33:36)
Thank you.