When You're Both Avoidant

So what happens when BOTH of you have patterns of avoiding conflict and want to keep the peace at all costs, even if it means staying with an unhappy status quo? Jerry & Kristy consider this (a listener-suggested topic) in light of the rewards that can come from decidedly "rocking the boat."

Transcript

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Jerry (00:00)
Hey, you're listening to LoveWorks, Skills for a Relational Life. I'm Jerry Sander here with my co-host, Kristy Gaysford. Hi, Kristy Hey, good to see you. Today's topic, thank you. Today's topic, you know, I had a reaction when it was suggested. How are we gonna talk about that? So I think it came from one of our listeners.

Kristy (00:07)
Hi, Jerry.

You too.

Mmm.

Jerry (00:27)
And it was suggested the person wrote, and we welcome topics by the way. So we welcome your suggestions. The person wrote how to start, how do you start doing things differently when you both tend to avoid and thought about that a lot. And we sort of reframe that together to be

Kristy (00:33)
Yes.

Jerry (00:55)
What if you both are like avoidant types? And I wonder what your reaction was when you considered that topic, Kristy. I'll tell you mine after.

Kristy (01:08)
well, I just thought about what a difficult situation that is because when both people are are walled off and avoidant, it's, very difficult to move the relationship because it's a safe place to be individually in the sense that you're not, you're kind of both just safe behind your wall, but it's pretty miserable safety. It's like that stable misery we talk about and

No one's very happy, but they feel safe enough that neither of them is going to rock the boat. And it's kind of a sad couple because they're not enjoying each other. They're not enjoying the relationship, but they're just kind of staying there.

Jerry (01:38)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I would agree that there's a sadness there and also that there's a stability to it oftentimes that I keep thinking that Billy Joel song that they're sharing a drink called loneliness, but it's better than drinking alone.

Kristy (02:21)
Yeah, that's a great

lyrics to describe that.

Jerry (02:27)
Yeah, that it's just some kind of relationship. So it's better than having no relationship. And it seems to center around this belief that you will not get more even if you spoke up, but you're not going to break up or divorce. To me, that's what being avoidant suggests. And my reaction when I heard the topic is,

Kristy (02:47)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (02:55)
That's it's been, it's so the, so much the opposite of me these days that, know, when I see problems or challenges in my relationship, I want to like dig in and make it better. want to, I don't want to leave it. I don't want to avoid like I've avoided in the past and there weren't good results. And that was before I learned how to do it this other way, you know, both, you know, you and I both.

Kristy (03:10)
Yeah.

Jerry (03:24)
recorded a podcast about our divorces from other people and for me avoidance was part of that stuff that didn't work. So I do understand for people in stable misery, they may feel it works to some degree.

I wrote down some reasons that people are avoidant, but it occurred to me as like dialogue. heard, I heard these things. I'll read, read you. do? All right. Let's trade. Let's trade them. I'll give the first one, right? Well, the other person has so much on their plate right now.

Kristy (04:00)
I have some too. Yeah, I'd like to hear them.

Okay.

Mmm. Okay. Mine is a fear of rejection. I don't want to put myself out there because I'm afraid I'll be rejected again and hurt.

Jerry (04:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Again.

And does that mean again by this person or again by anyone on this planet since I was born?

Kristy (04:35)
I think by specifically

by this person because I assume they've tried before several times and if they're at this point of not trying.

Jerry (04:39)
OK.

Okay. Mine was like yours. I don't want to make anything worse.

Kristy (04:54)
Okay, my next is apathy. Like I don't really believe that it can get better or I don't know how and so I'm just not gonna try. It's kind of just checking out.

Jerry (05:11)
I have down this hasn't gone well in the past when we tried to talk about it.

Kristy (05:19)
Yeah. I have lack of trust. So I don't trust that my partner will handle this well, that it will go well, that I'll feel heard or seen. And so I'm not going to put myself out there.

Jerry (05:41)
Other people have it worse than us.

Kristy (05:46)
interesting.

Jerry (05:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (05:51)
yeah, I just have past hurt, but I feel like we kind of already said that in other ways, but I've been hurt too much before. I don't want to risk being hurt again.

Jerry (06:03)
Mm-hmm. It's very adaptive, isn't it? How about, it's all I can do to function at this level. I can't be asked to do more.

Kristy (06:06)
Mm-hmm.

Okay I have another one. I don't know how to do it differently. I know you want something more from me but I don't know how to give it to you. I don't even know what it looks like or how to get there.

Jerry (06:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (06:34)
I've never seen it modeled for me.

Jerry (06:39)
Yeah. I mean, how can you do what you've never seen? You know, you just can't. That's a plug for the boot camps right there because we spend two days showing you what you haven't seen and taking apart your old ways that were proven to not work for you. The last thing I have is

Kristy (06:44)
Yeah.

Yes.

Jerry (07:09)
anything I gain wouldn't be worth what this conversation might cost me.

Kristy (07:14)
yeah.

It's sort of the short-sightedness, know, like it might, it does sometimes get worse before it gets better. And so it can be reinforced that, well, yeah, I mean, patterns take a long time to break. They can, and sometimes you get a bad reaction a few times before you start, your partner maybe starts to wake up and realize,

Jerry (07:28)
Yes, talk about that. That's a hard sell.

Kristy (07:45)
what you're asking of them and that you're really unhappy with the way things are. And so you have to be willing to be a little bit sturdy and be willing to risk it getting a little worse before it gets better. But if you react to their first bad reaction, then you might just say, see it, I knew it, and back up again, back off.

Jerry (08:10)
So maybe the commonality in so many of these points of view or fears is that you're going to be called out or blasted or attacked for doing something wrong, right? You're just going to get criticized.

Kristy (08:31)
Or rejected,

just like they aren't going to meet your request, no.

Jerry (08:34)
or reject it.

So yeah, so I think it's becoming clearer that if you are avoidant

you're in hiding to some degree because you feel like if I am seen for my full self kind of nakedly I will be rejected or attacked.

Kristy (08:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, I think so.

Jerry (09:08)
And I'm also thinking at the same time, like what percentage of people really feel like they're doing relationships fantastically, like they are knocking it out of the ballpark. They're just so good at relationships. Aside from a few influencers who like, you on social media, most ever. No, I don't. I think they look like they can.

Kristy (09:30)
You think they really are though?

Jerry (09:37)
Convince people they are but no, I don't think they are so I think most people are walking around thinking I don't really know how to do this. I don't really know how to Make my partner happy and not give myself away and not be Mean or selfish or I don't really know what I'm doing I'm just trying to stay out of the line of fire and not get yelled at and not be seen as someone who doesn't know what they're doing

I'm insecure. Plus, on a bad day, I'm not sure I even like myself. Right?

Kristy (10:12)
Yeah, and it's pretty,

it is pretty tricky to figure out the space between really standing up for who you are and giving to your partner. And what is the balance there? It takes a lot of negotiating and wrestling with each other to figure that out. It's not some easy answer.

Jerry (10:33)
Yeah. I know so many couples right now we're going through hard times because of the economy and because of changes and because, you know, someone works for a federal agency or something like that. And it's so hard for them to actually be upset with their partner about almost anything right now. Because they. Yeah, because they have empathy and they feel like if there was ever a time

Kristy (10:54)
Can I have empathy?

Jerry (11:02)
to tilt the balance between being nice or talking about something difficult. Maybe now's the time to be nice, but it leaves them kind of bereft feeling like, about me? And when do we get to talk about the hard stuff? You know? I'm just thinking of that balance you're talking about, the balance between being nice and understanding versus standing up for yourself.

Kristy (11:17)
Mm, right.

Yeah,

that's the constant negotiation, I think.

Jerry (11:36)
And I don't know if men as a group experience it that same way.

Kristy (11:44)
Mm.

Jerry (11:45)
You know, I don't know if most men worry a lot about whether their ratio of being nice is enough. I think men per... Go ahead. Yeah.

Kristy (11:57)
I, well, I do have some male clients

that feel like their wife's asking things of them and they also feel confused. Like, well, am I supposed to give up my hobbies or my passions to be with her as much as she wants me to be with her? And then what if I resent her because I gave up this hobby that I love and I really want both because the hobby makes me happy.

and they want to be there for my wife, but if I just am with my wife, I'm not going to be a very good version of myself because I'm going to be resentful. So I think maybe in different ways they feel the juggle too.

Jerry (12:41)
That is so interesting you mentioned hobbies, because hobbies can be something that really make you feel good about yourself, or they can be a way of being avoidant.

Kristy (12:53)
yeah, that's a great point.

Jerry (12:56)
Yeah. Like, you know, it's Tuesday night, you know, I have the Lions club. Bye bye. You

Kristy (13:02)
Yeah, I basketball,

I've golf again. I think, well, I was just going to say, I think that that's where it takes being very honest with yourself. Like, am I being selfish? Am I being avoidant? Have I had a good balance here? Do I pick myself over my family more often? And is it time to give more or

Jerry (13:07)
On the other, yeah, go ahead.

Kristy (13:32)
Is it the opposite? Is this seem very reasonable to me and my partner's expectations actually feel stifling? And how can we negotiate the difference in that? But really being honest with yourself, because sometimes we have to compromise and give and sometimes we have to really hold space for ourselves so we don't resent our family or our partner. So it's not an easy answer.

Jerry (13:59)
Yeah.

No, I would ask oneself, what do I really get out of being avoidant? What's the reward? Is it just protection from imagined attack or imagined intimacy? know, am I really happy with the next five years remaining the same 10 years, 15 years, 20 years? Is it truly good enough?

Kristy (14:33)
Yes, and who

are you hurting by being avoidant?

Jerry (14:37)
Yeah, I

Kristy (14:40)
you're probably hurting yourself too.

Jerry (14:44)
Right. So the first part of the healing for the couple is for the individual to embrace themselves around whatever they were avoiding, talking about, or asking for. This actually is important. I'm thinking of a roommate I had in college who had up on our, he had a saying up on our wall.

some things have to be put off time and time again until they're finally forgotten.

And he didn't do too well in college.

Kristy (15:25)
That's funny.

Jerry (15:28)
He dropped out. never saw him again. And I just think, no, you can't put off these things time and time again and expect the relationship to thrive. Because I've seen relationships like this where they're both avoidant and hanging in there. And then one person says, I met someone and they really connect with me and they really listen.

Kristy (15:46)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (15:56)
and we really talk about our lives. Now that can be an emotional affair or it can be a physical affair or sexual affair, but it's like, wait, you have a party that wants to talk about these intimate things? I didn't know that. Weren't that way with me?

Kristy (16:11)
Right.

Yep. And why, okay, if your partner is very avoidant, you can ask yourself, why am I willing to be with someone who isn't cherishing me? But if you're both avoidant, then it's on you too. Like, what have I done to cherish my partner? And am I okay with this?

Jerry (16:38)
So there's an awkwardness, like if you have someone that's awkward and shy, in a sense it is sort of a who's gonna go first thing, assuming you both really care for each other and love each other.

Kristy (16:44)
Mm-hmm.

Awkward, shy, or just really hurt?

When you're both hurt? Well, when both, I see this a lot. mean, both people are so hurt by each other that neither of them want to go first because they both feel like they shouldn't have to, you know, because we're all in our own story, right? So.

Jerry (16:53)
You say more about that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So what's the solution to that? How can that get better?

Kristy (17:13)
You have to be sturdy

enough to do it for you because you don't want to be stuck in a relationship that's uncherishing and unfulfilling. And so you have to be willing to try for yourself, not because your partner deserves it necessarily, but you want to do it because that's what you want. And you want to see if it gets better for you. And if it doesn't get better, even when you're trying and trying, then maybe it isn't worth it. But you'll never know if you don't try.

And you deserve it.

Jerry (17:50)
So I was just thinking of, I was thinking of an example and then you're going to laugh about this. So, so let's say, by the way, you may need to get support for yourself from a third party. You may really need to go to a therapist and say, I don't know how to talk to him about. He only wears the same clothes every day, every single day, every day. And, like all winter.

You know, and it's sort of grossing me out and sort of disgusting. I'm laughing because I thought I have these flannel pants, Christie, from of all places, Duluth Mountain Trading Place. And remember that that you remember my stories about that place. I actually have these favorite flannel lined pants from them that I won't take off pretty much all winter, you know, because I'm

Kristy (18:27)
Yeah

Oh, yeah, yes, I do. Yes, I do.

Jerry (18:48)
cold and they're warm, you know, but I'm just thinking like you may need support from someone to figure out how to ask or how to bring it up if you're a naturally avoidant type. And I think we can give you some hints because someone does need to go first. If things are if things just remain the same, they're just going to remain the same.

Kristy (18:49)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (19:17)
Someone needs to take a risk. Yeah, you could get smacked down. You could get smacked down just like Falling in love fall in love with someone and they say you're not my type Okay, that could happen But it didn't happen. I don't think if you're married, right? I Don't think it happened. So my advice would be and I'm curious what yours sounds like

Speak to make things better with your partner and tell your partner that you're doing so like Hey partner, I want to make things better Not worse. I know you have a lot on your plate right now. I love you I don't want to make things even stronger between us. That's why I wanted to talk So it doesn't mean like criticisms are coming. It means I want

to make things better. feel like something I want to talk about that we haven't talked about. I'm not trying to criticize you. I care for you.

Kristy (20:20)
Yeah, you could also

say, I miss you. I miss when we were closer.

Jerry (20:27)
I miss you.

That's a great

one. I miss when we were closer. And those pants that you wear like all winter, could I help you wash them or could you wash them or something every now and then? know, at least once a month or something, you know? It would just...

Kristy (20:52)
Those are great pants.

I'm so glad you found them and that you're comfortable all winter. I'm wondering if we could wash them more often.

Jerry (21:03)
Yeah, of course. I love that. You used the we word and you complimented and it was true. They are great pants. I mean, you spoke the truth in a loving way. And this is the message. If you're an avoidant type, you don't have to be flat. You don't have to be tuned out. You can be authentic. You can be in touch with your heart and tell the truth.

Kristy (21:29)
Yeah.

Jerry (21:31)
Like I want to make things better by talking. You know, I, I think that goes a long way. You, you actually taught me that, but listening to you, that you often started rough conversations by saying, I love you and this, you know, this is your advice to people. I love you. And, and then it's true. It's not manipulative. It's, it's the truth. And it makes it easier to hear what's about to follow.

Kristy (21:57)
Especially if you

say, and I want to be close to you because people people get really defensive if they feel that the relationship is threatened. But if you start out with the relationship isn't threatened because I love you and I want to be with you. Okay, that now I feel secure and this would help me feel better.

Jerry (22:24)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a type of reaching for your partner and reaching for the best in you, you know, like the status quo, the way you've been in avoidant land. I don't think that's what you wanted when you were younger and you said someday I'm going to grow up and marry someone who I can avoid. You know, that's just absurd. It's, it was more like, I want to marry someone who really

Kristy (22:47)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (22:53)
gets me in whom I love being with and have fun with. And we forget those things. And we just go into wait, how do you be an adult? How am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to say? And so many people, yeah.

Kristy (23:06)
Well, I don't even think people

think about that. I think they just act like so many times it's amazing how people will say, I hated how my dad gave me the silent treatment. I couldn't stand it. He wouldn't talk to us for four days. And then lo and behold, they give their partner the silent treatment for four days and don't even make the connection. Like people, people just react without actually looking at themselves.

What am I doing and how am I acting like my parents who hurt me? You know, like we all do things and we can't change unless we acknowledge that. None of us is immune to doing something that hurts our partner sometimes, even when we don't mean to. So let's be less fragile and a little bit more sturdy and look at what those things are.

Jerry (23:50)
Mm-hmm.

That means taking some risks. I mean,

Kristy (24:08)
Yeah, and you can handle it, right? You can handle the risk.

Jerry (24:15)
You can, I if you want a risk-free life, don't, yeah, definitely be alone with sofa pillows all around you and, you know, just don't go out of your house because you might get struck by lightning, you know? But that's pretty silly. So if you are in a relationship, it's not that everyone has to be in a relationship. You know, we don't often...

Kristy (24:18)
Be alone.

Jerry (24:41)
talk about that, that some people choose not to be in relationships and that needs to be respected. That really needs to be respected. But if you are in a relationship and you're not talking, you're not speaking the truth, what is it you are always saying about when the truth dies, Christy?

Kristy (25:00)
When you stop speaking the truth,

intimacy dies. And it's true.

Jerry (25:08)
Why are so many people willing to see intimacy die? It seems like they are.

Kristy (25:13)
because they're

afraid. They're afraid of being vulnerable and putting themselves out there. So they'd rather withdraw than risk being hurt. But they're being hurt anyway by not being intimate.

Jerry (25:25)
But, but

yeah, and they're still willing to have sex and then they complain about that. so there's no link then between their feelings, their self-esteem, they're having sex, they're sharing money, they're sharing a home. It's just all disengaged then. It was like, no, they're saying I'm married. What more do you want?

Kristy (25:48)
They're not sharing their hearts.

Jerry (25:54)
for me, you know? Yeah. I always find that sort of shocking. I want to throw something into the mix that will stir that up and I'll work with whomever shows the most inclination towards wanting more, but it's not always successful. I took a class once, a sociology class where they

It was a terrible study. They had done a study of love letters from prison that women inmates had written and they must have intercepted these letters and I don't know. It was all, yeah, was sick sociology stuff. But the point of it was that in any relationship, the advantage in power goes to the person who seems to care the least. Yeah.

Kristy (26:34)
Weird.

Less. Yeah.

Yep.

Jerry (26:53)
Yeah. So the fear is if I say I want some real intimacy, real intimacy, not just doing taxes and putting the kids to sleep. I want real intimacy and I'm not just talking about sex. Then it's not going to be matched. Person is going to say you're out of your mind or I don't know what you're talking about or I got other things to do and I'm going to be totally rejected. These are the reasons.

why we said early on, then they don't say anything. But if you have the courage to say that, the partner may say, I want that too. I don't know how we get it, but that's what I want also. And then you can get some help.

Kristy (27:35)
Yeah, I mean, another thing

you said, I mean, another way to say that is the person who cares most is held hostage by the one who cares least, right? But if even if your partner cares less than you do, and you risk rejection, if you love yourself enough and respect yourself enough, you can still handle that because you're you're going to bat for yourself.

And if you don't get what you need from your partner, you can still get from yourself self-esteem. And you can handle the rejection because you can go after what you truly want and what you deserve, regardless of what your partner decides. And that's a whole other podcast, but I just...

Jerry (28:24)
I love that. And I'm thinking of a couple of other podcasts here. I want to do one about children again, because you talk about hostage taking and the issue of having children.

Frequently I find people use it as a dodge like how can I possibly have How can we have intimacy? Not just sex but intimacy when we have kids. How can we do it? We're like our whole day is spent around them and their needs and then there's none of me left none 0.0 time to go to sleep wake up and do it again tomorrow

And that is, that is, can be lethal to a relationship.

Kristy (29:18)
And another kind of avoidance. that what kind of how you're tying it in? It's yeah. Yeah.

Jerry (29:22)
Yes, I am tying in with avoidance.

Like we can't talk about us. We got the kids. You know, so that is another podcast. Yeah.

But what, so not to be Debbie Downer here because the stronger one, the one who has more feeling, is more in touch with the need for intimacy, can also introduce it as a topic and say, come on in, the water's fine. You know, we can, I want more. Don't you want more too? Don't you want more than just what we have right now?

Kristy (29:51)
Right.

Jerry (30:01)
And the answer might really be yes if you're brave enough to take the first step. So I would say take the first step. And if you're not met at all, yeah, it'll be sad, but it's also clear. It's also clarity.

Kristy (30:16)
Right,

right, I like that. Come on in here. The water's fine. I'll help you get here. I'll help you down the steps. I like that.

Jerry (30:23)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, we don't need to fight about this topic. I don't think so. Yeah, it was. So if you're out there listening, come to our boot camp in New York City, register for it, but practice this stuff in person and...

Kristy (30:30)
Okay. Well, thank you. This is good.

Jerry (30:46)
learn and journal and meet other people who are also not experts in it because none of us were. We weren't born knowing this stuff, were we? No. Yeah. All right. See you again. Good talking to you. Bye.

Kristy (30:53)
No, definitely not.

All right, take care. Thanks. Bye.