Controlling Your Partner

Jerry & Kristy consider the ebbs and flow of attempted control of the other person within a relationship. What does it get you? What's so wrong about it, anyway?

An epic fight about the way the other person loads the dishwasher is featured in the second half, as well as a better-way-forward illustrated.

Transcript

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Kristy (00:03)
Hi, welcome to Love Work. I'm I'm Kristy Gaysford and I'm here with Jerry Sander. Hey Jerry.

Jerry (00:09)
Hey Kristy good to see you.

Kristy (00:12)
You too. We are going to talk today about being controlling. And the reason I kind of wanted to talk about this is because I actually because I saw it in myself and then I started noticing it more. So I never thought of myself as a controlling person. And my husband said he thought I was controlling and I

Jerry (00:39)
Hahaha

Kristy (00:40)
I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I never tell you what to do or, you know, like I honestly didn't see it. And so I started paying attention and it isn't like I tell him what to do, but I noticed that I want to. And I noticed that I have preferences and like, have, I feel myself wanting to control him. And what I realized is,

he's really perceptive of that. And so even though I wasn't coming out and saying it, he could sense it. And I think a lot of times we think things about ourselves, but we don't realize how our energy is coming out or how ours, how it's in kind of in subtle ways. And so we don't always own them. It's like a shadow part of us. And if we don't own them,

Jerry (01:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kristy (01:37)
you know, they're getting in the relationship without, and it's even worse because we can't talk about it. So I thought we could talk about, you know, how you see this and ways that we find ourselves being controlling or wanting to control and how it affects relationships.

Jerry (01:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm so glad you just qualified that by saying wanting to control. I personally, and I've said this many times, I think this world would be a lot better place and a lot easier place if people were more like me, particularly my spouse. If she were like me and did things my way and wants to do the same things when I want to do them, be so much easier. Be so much easier. So, and

Kristy (02:12)
Yeah.

Jerry (02:24)
Unfortunately, she thinks the same thing, right? Like we all want things to be easy, but just having the other person be like us and do stuff like us. So I think when it's funny, I love the topic. And when I heard you say, you know, how controlling are you? I first thought, my first reaction was, you mean how controlling do you think you are? Because we actually,

Kristy (02:26)
Right.

Yeah, yeah.

Jerry (02:54)
Don't control other humans without a price. Without a price. So, you know, when I was a theater director, someone taught me that you can make an actor go to a certain part of the stage and sit down and do what you want them to do, even if they don't want to do it, but they'll make sure it never works in performance. Yeah.

Kristy (03:00)
Right.

how interesting.

Jerry (03:23)
So there is always a price you pay if you make someone do something or control them. That's my first thought. And a related theme is how bossy are you? You know, but how controlling are you? thought it was a great topic. And I would ask the person who leans towards being controlling,

Kristy (03:40)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (03:53)
How much resentment do you want in your relationship? And how much passive aggressive payback do you want in your relationship? Or how much silence do you want when you know things are brewing underneath it?

Kristy (04:12)
Yeah. Um, so this is maybe a dumb, a small example, but I, I think it's good. Um, one way I want to control my husband is sometimes what he wears. So like he'll come out wearing something and I never say like, you can't wear that. Of course. Right. That would be so blatant. You can't wear that. What do you, you need to change? But I might kind of look at him in a way that

shows that maybe I'm not totally approving and then he might say, what, you don't like this? And I'm like, it's fine, right? I'm not gonna tell you what to wear, but I'm gonna give you the message that I don't like it, right? And I think that happens a lot. know, things, just little things like, are you gonna eat that?

Jerry (04:45)
Hmm

Hmm?

Kristy (05:12)
Are you gonna wear that? Are you gonna put the dishes in like that? Like there's so many ways we actually want to jump in.

Jerry (05:14)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right

And sometimes it is passive aggressive the way it's expressed right like you're loading the dishwasher that way Huh, that's the way you want to load the dishwasher? Hmm Okay, so, you know, I mean so Let's go to the other side for a second the person who's doing it differently and has some self-esteem Like, you know, it's incredible how much

Kristy (05:24)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Jerry (05:47)
dishwasher conflict there is, you know, like I wanted to pitch in, I got up after dinner, I put stuff in the dishwasher and she's saying stuff like, that's the way you're loading the dishwasher. I mean, that's, is that controlling? I'll ask that as an open ended question, Christie, is that controlling?

Kristy (06:15)
I think it has an element of control because it's showing that you don't like it and you wish they would do it differently without coming out and saying it.

Jerry (06:26)
Yeah. So.

Kristy (06:27)
I I want

to, I totally want to control the way my husband loves the dishwasher. I can't stand the way he does the dishes because he doesn't wash the dishes off and our dishwasher isn't that great. So then the food.

Jerry (06:31)
Why?

but he watches all these commercials where they put

in stuff that's caked in junk and then they smile like, look, I can see my reflection in this plate afterwards, right? So I have, or you don't.

Kristy (06:47)
Yeah.

Yep, but we don't have that dishwasher.

We definitely don't. So then I'm like, oh, what's the point of you doing the dishes? Cause you now have to redo them when I take them out of the dishwasher and they're still dirty. But like how much of that, how do you say that in a marriage without making someone feel controlled?

Jerry (07:10)
Well, that's great. I mean, we can try that in our fight. I think that there are ways. I remember and I'm sure, I'm sure my wife will be okay with me telling a story because it was early on in our relationship when you're still sort of figuring out, you know, attitudes and things like control versus mutuality, you know, and she was making some, what was it? Guacamole.

And she asked me to cut the cilantro up, you know, or wash it. So I was supposed to wash the cilantro. She knew what she was doing. She makes amazing guacamole, but I didn't know that then. This was like a first time. And she said, do you want to wash the cilantro? So I said, yeah. And then I'm doing it. And I was all proud of myself for participating, you know, getting a participation trophy. And she's, she's paused and looked at me and said,

Kristy (07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jerry (08:07)
Do you want to see how we wash cilantro like in restaurants that I've worked at? And yeah, my first reaction is what the hell? Like my first reaction was, you mean thank you? You know, like, no, I don't want it. And I thought about it and I thought, well, all right, I want to see how you do it there.

Kristy (08:14)
You did it wrong.

Jerry (08:37)
I just went the extra mile and she showed me and it was really cool. It was really cool. And I try and remember how to do that now. But at first it felt like control. Like, you did it wrong. How would you like to learn how to do it my way? And I think most people when faced with that would say, I don't want to, I want to do it my own way, right?

Kristy (08:40)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, either that or what I see a lot also in therapy is people just stop doing things because they know they're going to be corrected. And so they're like, yeah, you're so particular. I guess you're going to do it. not going to do it because I always seem to do things wrong. And then the person complains that they don't get any help around there. And the partner says, yeah, that's because nobody can do it right. They all have to do it your way.

Jerry (09:11)
Go ahead, load the dishwasher, Christie.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's right.

So many dishwasher stories and so many, so I've heard so many men say, okay, I understand you can get 23 % more in than I did it the way I stacked it, but they all came out clean, didn't they? know, what's the point? Who cares? Just put it in, put the thing in and push on. Well, you and I've talked about how we live in,

Kristy (09:33)
Yeah

Cause they probably did not come out clean if you're at my house.

Jerry (10:00)
Similar realities, but with different color sunglasses on and so what do mean by clean? You know, there's so many so many arguments between people about a house being clean or cleaning up or What a clean rug looks like or what a clean kitchen counter looks like people argue about this stuff ferociously all the time But I want to ask you like I wrote down some adjectives for me, but what is it like?

Kristy (10:04)
Yes.

Yeah.

Jerry (10:30)
for you, when you feel controlled, what words come to mind when you feel control?

Kristy (10:36)
Mm, resentment. Resentment,

claustrophobic, angry, frustrated.

Jerry (10:47)
Yeah, I wrote down annoying, infantilizing, like you're a little baby, insulting, the opposite of erotic, unless this is consensual, playful, erotic control, distancing, and it's provocative. And on some level, it's an indication.

Kristy (10:49)
What about you?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It's kind of sending too.

Jerry (11:15)
Yeah, it's an indication that the other person does think that they are better than you.

Kristy (11:20)
Yeah.

Jerry (11:22)
So it's a challenge. And I think there are ways of addressing that that can level the playing field again. But I also wanted to consider this, that if we're talking about a heterosexual long-term relationship or union or marriage, that typically in patriarchy, I think there's cultural messages about who should control whom.

And the idea of a woman controlling a man seems particularly galling, upsetting, contrary to nature, against the way things should be when where the idea of a man controlling a woman seems more culturally appropriate and to be expected under patriarchy. what we're talking about is how do you wrestle with this in the equal relationship that's not

you know, in these gendered sex roles.

Kristy (12:26)
That's interesting. think that's interesting because I think so much of it is subconscious. And so I think if you ask people, they would say, I don't believe in those roles anymore. And yet it still seeps into the relationships subconsciously. And that's where it can get tricky. And that's kind of the shadow I'm talking about.

Jerry (12:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristy (12:55)
don't own their shadow and they don't see themselves that way. And so it's hard to admit, yeah, I was being pretty chauvinistic expecting you to just do all the dishes all the time or all the laundry all the time, but I don't see myself that way. So it's hard for me to own it, you know.

Jerry (13:00)
Yeah.

we have.

Yeah, I don't think we're conscious of being influenced by all the things that influence us. So things that feel natural, quote unquote, we don't own that we weren't born that way. It was kind of drilled into our head over and over and over again. I actually came up with four, where control comes from, four places that are

I'm just open to discussing it in this framework. It's, you know, just a thought. The first place where I think a controlling personality comes from is history. History. You grew up this way. You were either controlled or you saw someone you love, maybe yourself or your siblings being controlled. And then control equals love.

Kristy (13:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Yeah.

Jerry (14:23)
The second I thought was habit. Just like you do it because you do it. You've always done it. That's how I am. Or my favorite phrase to hear in therapy, it is what it is, you know? That's how I am. And the third one is fear. That if you don't do it your way, you know, things might get worse.

Kristy (14:38)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (14:51)
Someone has to organize this household or this other person. Someone has to make sure you get there on time. Someone has to plan. Yeah, go ahead.

Kristy (15:00)
Yeah, I think it's the fear that

if I don't do it, it won't happen. But it's also the fear that if I don't control, I will be controlled. I think that's another thing too.

Jerry (15:04)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. And that may be regarding your history as well. And not just your family of origin, maybe a previous boyfriend or husband or something like that. Someone has to initiate sex or plan a date, like control, control, control, control. You can't just ask in mutuality. It has to be controlled.

Kristy (15:16)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (15:37)
And the last place I saw control coming from was lack of skills. Like, what's the alternative to being controlling? If we do nothing, we'll end up with nothing. What are we supposed to do? I think people don't know.

Kristy (15:53)
Yeah.

I think I'm just going to speak for women in general, which might not be fair, but I think a lot of women control because they feel like if they don't, nothing will get done. That's what I hear the most. like, well, if I, if I just step back, nothing will happen. I'm the only one.

Jerry (16:13)
And what's

that with regard to? Is that just housework-y stuff or money, family stuff?

Kristy (16:18)
or family stuff, family, kids,

housework, anything that keeps the engine running in the family.

Jerry (16:28)
So that's interesting. What came to mind hearing you say that is like, called your cousin to invite them over because it's been a long time since you've seen them or something like that. Otherwise it wouldn't happen.

Kristy (16:39)
No.

Yeah, or the reason I got mad about the house not being clean or the laundry not being done or the kids' rooms not being picked up or the snow not being shoveled or whatever it is, is because if I didn't, nobody listens to me and if I don't get mad and kind of sound controlling about it, it won't get done.

Jerry (17:10)
And that becomes a mantra that becomes a repeated story in your head that every time you act from a place of controlling gets reinforced. Here's me doing the work because here's me. always end up doing the work. if I don't do the work of boom, kid done. And it just becomes just like truism. And you're right. The other partner often just says, okay, do the work. Let me know when it's done. You know that. Yeah.

Kristy (17:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, do-

I was going say depending who you're married to. Like you might have somebody who's like just a pleaser and just keeps doing it. You might have someone who withdraws and says you insist on it being your way so I'm just going to let you do it.

Jerry (17:56)
Yeah, that's, which do you think is more common? The kind of passive aggressive, I'll get back at you behavior from the other person or, or what? Like that.

Kristy (18:09)
I've seen a lot of both to be honest. And both are

frustrating. Even the pleasers, the partner's frustrated with them too because they're not standing up on their own two feet and saying, this doesn't work for me. This does, this is what I need from you. This is what I can't do. They just almost feel like they have another child who might be obedient but isn't really a partner.

Jerry (18:29)
Yeah.

And so the couple loses its edge as a pair of adults who have, you know, adult ways. And one becomes the mommy and the other one becomes the compliant kid.

Kristy (18:49)
Yeah. Yep.

Jerry (18:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristy (18:54)
But I think the other one is common too, the passive aggressive withdrawal that's like, you have to have it your way, I'm sick and tired of it, so you do it. And then the other thing that's really common is both people can feel controlled in different ways and both people can feel really unappreciated in different ways because everyone's valuing their own contribution.

Jerry (19:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Kristy (19:23)
more than their partners because we're ourself.

Jerry (19:25)
So you're

talking about like a woman controlling things that happen within the house, but the guy controlling finances and stuff like that. And I do think the ultimate challenge for that, if it's going on that way, is sex and coming together and some type of physical intimacy. Because that tends to be this battleground where...

Kristy (19:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (19:54)
where it's almost like a get even time or something, you know, like.

Kristy (20:01)
Well, people don't feel close. If they feel controlled, they don't feel close. And so then they don't want to be intimate.

Jerry (20:10)
They'll put

stuff off, they'll say, I didn't know we were on for tonight or something.

Kristy (20:16)
Or if you

have a controlling mother, child, teenager relationship, that's not sexy. That's not a turn on.

Jerry (20:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So there's got to be, oh yeah, the other thought I had about control was I was reminded of in the old days, they used to have these, when they had car seats in the back of the car or you strap the kid in the car, they'd have these fake driving wheels, car wheels with like, you know, all the things, a little horn and stuff.

Kristy (20:51)
yeah, I remember that.

Jerry (20:54)
And

the kid could make believe they're driving. I think that's what the controlling person is really like. They think they're driving stuff. They think they're determining the successful outcome of things. And they're really not. They're really not. That is not the way to get to where you want to go. Even if you have the strong desire for a certain kind of outcome.

Kristy (20:57)
Yeah.

Jerry (21:24)
Attempting to control your partner. We teach it as a losing strategy in the boot camps and it always is.

Kristy (21:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (21:35)
So it's no more effective than that little kid driving a car. You think you're getting the result you want, you're actually alienating and upsetting someone whom you say you care for and who cares for you. It's just not gonna work. They're either gonna get back at you, they're gonna refuse to go along with it, they're gonna develop a mantra like you're the bossy one and I'm the kid. It just doesn't get you what you want. Ever.

Kristy (22:03)
Or

people will start lying and hiding things. If someone's too controlling, nobody likes to be controlled or stuck or like, yeah, so they usually find a way to go around it.

Jerry (22:17)
Yeah, how? How do you see like people going around this stuff?

Kristy (22:22)
just hiding in line saying fine I'll do it your way and then they don't or you know making excuses or not telling the full truth because they don't want the backlash. Like if there's no room for error or discussion people tend to find a way around you.

Jerry (22:29)
Mm-hmm.

Now, lately there's been like a lot of cultural stuff spoken about and written about being a traditional wife or a trad wife or traditional man, you know, husband. And I think part of this, again, that's part and parcel of patriarchy, the values that are associated with that. But I think people

Kristy (23:00)
Mm.

Jerry (23:13)
start telling himself, well, it doesn't feel right to me and this isn't natural to me, but I want to be a good husband. I want to be a good wife. I don't want to start a lot of trouble. Are you encountering any of that with clients? That their definition of being a good wife or a good husband means being allowed to be controlled.

Kristy (23:31)
So what are you saying? I don't understand what you're

No, I haven't encountered that.

Jerry (23:46)
Okay. I have, I have where people feel that, that, the framework they're working from is a traditional one. And in the traditional one, the man is going to get to dictate a lot of things. You know, it's funny thinking about you saying about your husband, the way he dresses, know, the subtle messages. I've seen controlling behaviors with men wanting

Kristy (24:02)
in

Yeah.

Jerry (24:15)
their wife to dress more provocatively or something or less provocatively. Go in there and take off what you're wearing and put on something much more modest or something.

Kristy (24:27)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Jerry (24:30)
But I've

never seen those couples end up feeling close and attached in warm intimacy, you know?

Kristy (24:38)
Right.

Jerry (24:42)
Well, should we try and illustrate how this can be better done through fights? Better results through fighting, but I think there is a way.

Kristy (24:43)
me

Yeah.

Yeah, I do too. I definitely do. And I think before we do that, I guess I just want to highlight, I think it's important that everybody looks at their own tendencies to want to control because you can't, if you can't even own it, then you can't change it. But you not think you're controlling, but you'll notice all the things you wish you could control.

and then you'll start to see your energy that's seeping out in places you're kind of unaware of.

Jerry (25:31)
I like that. And for me, those four things, take a look at those four things. What is your history with having seen it in your family? What are you familiar with about control? What habits do you have? And what are you afraid of happening if you don't control? And what skills do you have doing it any other way? So. What would this situation be that we would have this imaginary disagreement about?

Kristy (26:02)
We could do the dishwasher or clothes.

Jerry (26:04)
Oh yeah. Let's do the dishwasher. So wait, I don't want to beat the bit. What if I tell you you loaded it wrong? Let's flip that or you're screwing up the dishwasher. Oh, okay. Here we go. Play acting time. Christie, hey Christie, do you have a minute?

Kristy (26:15)
Okay, sure.

Yeah?

Jerry (26:28)
I know you did the dishwasher or you loaded the dishwasher. I appreciate that and everything. But the way you're doing it is like chaotic and kind of, I don't know what the word is other than wrong because these things belong on the bottom part of the dishwasher. And if you do it this way and you line them up without extra spaces between things, you can get like 26 % more stuff in there and like

get it cleaner and save the environment at the same time. And I don't know why you don't do it that

Kristy (27:07)
my gosh, are you serious?

Jerry (27:10)
Yeah, I'm really serious. I've been quiet about this. I've watched you do this like three, four or five times now and I gotta speak up. I gotta be

Kristy (27:20)
Why don't you just

do it then? Honestly, it's not that big of a deal. I don't understand why you're making... Oh, because I didn't get 26, exactly 26 % more dishes in there? I got the dishes done. I had a million other things to do. I'm just doing it as fast as I can so I can get on.

Jerry (27:24)
Well, now I'm doing a ton of... I do a... I made it...

Well I'm saying you could have, you could-

Well, but to be

sure you're making believe you're gonna do it and then just throwing it in there and pushing the on button. You're not even, and that's okay with you.

Kristy (27:44)
Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Jerry (27:51)
because we should be, I don't understand. That seems like you're just like, that's like slapping us in the face.

Kristy (27:59)
What? Because I'm getting the dishes done? I'm slapping you in the face?

Jerry (28:01)
What do mean what? Now you're playing dumb.

Now, yes.

Kristy (28:07)
Yeah.

Jerry (28:09)
Let's see, where else would this go? I'm just going to start acting that way about things that you Like, like you want me to do the taxes and get it right and get that in. Why don't I just like guess? Why don't I guess about what is not different at all? Like, what if I guess how much money they fired all the IRS? There's no IRS anymore. You know, I'll just guess at how much I earned. You know, what if I did it my way instead of the right way?

Kristy (28:23)
my gosh, that's totally different and you know it. Yes it is. The IRS is involved. They're not, they're not.

There's no dishwasher police, Jerry. There's no one that's gonna show up and give us a tax on the dishwasher. I would never read the manual, Jerry. I have better things to do.

Jerry (28:42)
There is, is a, read the manual. Did you read the manual? Did you read the manual that it came?

I'm sorry. So like I don't. I'm like the dishwasher person who has to read the manual.

Kristy (28:56)
If you want to waste your

time reading a dishwasher manual go for it, but I will never do that.

Jerry (29:06)
such.

Kristy (29:08)
No.

Jerry (29:09)
You are such a jerk, Christie.

Ha

All right, you at home, I hope you've never had an argument like that. Nothing like it. Wild invention on our part, right? Extremely rare. So now we're gonna fix it. We're gonna do this so much better.

Kristy (29:22)
you

Yeah, very rare.

Okay, I'll do my best.

Jerry (29:39)
Alright, me too. I'm gonna start it the same way though. Hey, Kristy, do you have a minute?

Kristy (29:45)
Yeah.

Jerry (29:47)
I really appreciate that you did load the dishwasher and I also notice you've done it several times.

Kristy (29:57)
Yeah,

you're welcome.

Jerry (30:00)
I was about to say thank you and thank you. Yeah. I mean, in the past, you didn't do that stuff, but we're not going to talk about that now because there's been a whole bunch of improvement. So I want to tell you that I see it and notice it and it actually makes a difference to me. really appreciate it.

Kristy (30:04)
Yeah, you're welcome.

Wait, what do you see an improvement in?

Jerry (30:23)
that you didn't used to help with the dishwasher. You used to like get up after dinner and just like walk away. I'm praising you. I'm praising you. Give me a break here. I'm trying to praise you for progress. You made progress.

Kristy (30:31)
Okay.

Okay, okay. Okay.

hehe

Jerry (30:41)
And, and I learned, was flipping through the dishwasher manual. Don't laugh, you know, like I'm very organized person and I just wanted to see, you know, I care about the environment and stuff. And I just wanted to see like, are we doing the dishes too much or is there like some way of getting better efficiency? And it said that we could get up to like 26 % more in there.

If we loaded the dishes on the bottom rack consistently with like no space in between the things and stuff. And I don't always do that. That wasn't my natural way, but I noticed you really didn't do that that way either. You used the middle rack more. And I'm just wondering if you could make an effort to, I know it sounds stupid, right? It sounds silly, but I wondered if you could make an effort to use the lower rack more and we can get more in.

be more efficient. Is that something you could do, you think?

Kristy (31:48)
So just to get make sure I have this straight, you want me to use the whole lower rack and put things closer together so that we can fit more in it. That's what you're asking for. Yeah, I can do it. I can do that.

Jerry (31:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you, would really, I would sleep better at night. I don't know. Yeah, I really would. I really would, it's been racking my, I feel like global warming, all this stuff is related to consumption. I'm just generally freaked out these days and that would make me feel, you know, if things are tidy and organized around here, I relax and I wanna be more relaxed.

Kristy (32:09)
Really? Okay.

Okay.

Jerry (32:33)
So I would really appreciate it. I know it's not your natural style. I know it's not. I'm not going to make believe it is. So I appreciate it as above and beyond. do. know, differences are not deficits. And I hope you're not judging me about this like I'm some sort of nut. And I just want to keep this as a favor that you'll do for us. And I'll do one for you. I'll do one for you. You can ask me for something, you know?

Kristy (32:58)
Yep.

I mean, I think you're a little bit of a nut and I know I am too, but I'm happy to do that so that you feel better.

Jerry (33:13)
No, good. Thank you. And thank you for saying that you're a little bit of a nut too. I think you're a little right, but you know, that's okay. Maybe we can laugh about this stuff someday.

Kristy (33:17)
Yeah.

I can laugh about it right now.

Jerry (33:27)
I kind of can too, I just get wrapped up. I really didn't, I kind of wish I hadn't even opened the dishwasher manual. I was trying to keep the, you know that drawer with all the manuals in it? I was trying to make it all tidy and I opened it up and I read it. So I kind of wish I hadn't. Anyway, thanks for, yeah, thank you for rolling with.

Kristy (33:28)
Okay.

Yeah.

That's interesting. I probably will die

having never read a manual, but I do learn from you, so thank you.

Jerry (33:55)
Well, the first thing is said is that misuse of this product may result in injury or death. So be careful.

Kristy (34:04)
Okay. How many people do you know who have died from the dishwasher? That's okay. Okay.

Jerry (34:05)
Ha ha!

I don't know, but I don't want to be one of them. So let's just, you

Kristy (34:18)
Okay.

Jerry (34:19)
All

right, okay. Well, was that any better? How come?

Kristy (34:24)
Yeah.

you were a little less harsh coming in, I felt. And owned, I think more that it was your, some of your nuttiness. and I felt like I, I took, I separated myself from you. Like, like this is

It didn't mean I did something wrong. It just meant that you had a request that I could choose to say yes to so that you felt better. Not that it was the correct way.

Jerry (35:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

To me, I went out of my way to use the we word and to own that I, like you, was not born knowing how to load the dishwasher and kind of had to kind of read the manual about what, you know, and that. So I spoke about we, I put myself on the same plane as you instead of up above you.

And I acknowledged that this might be something that was important to me and not to you. And I think that's, yeah. The part that got dicey and trigger-y was me saying, you've improved or you've come a long way.

Kristy (35:43)
Yeah, that part was good, I think.

Yeah, yeah, that could have,

I was holding back some ego. Yeah, I was like, what are you talking about? But I'm going to just bite my tongue and let you finish.

Jerry (35:58)
I like that you didn't give in to easily. Yeah.

Cause I see that like,

right? Like you're with couples in a session and someone says, he's come a long way. He's like much better than he used to be. And the guy's like, you know, upset. want to fight again? You know? So you did a good job of not responding to a mini trigger there, I think, and listen for the big picture. I felt joined and supported at the end.

Kristy (36:15)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (36:35)
And it was kind of funny. I could start seeing the sense of humor about the manual, you know, and I thought we were connecting and with some laughter about, you know, what a dishwasher manual says. And that felt good. That felt good. So it like underneath the control, the, you know, I don't, I wasn't really wanting control. I wanted to feel like we're doing stuff together.

Kristy (36:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm, that's good insight.

Jerry (37:08)
Yeah, because that's like a healthy relationship to me. It would feel different if it... You know, otherwise it's like you give the other person a report card on how well they're doing or something. It's just different. It's not together.

Kristy (37:22)
Mm-hmm.

Do you really read the manuals in real life? Okay, I just wondered. I didn't think so. Good role playing then, that was good.

Jerry (37:31)
No, never. Real life, I couldn't care less. couldn't care less. I'm not organized, I'm not tidy. I load the dishwasher any way I want to. Thank you very much. It was all role playing because

sometimes my wife will like, know, stack it a little neater than I've thrown things in there. And I feel like

More like what you were saying, like what's the difference? Just put it in there, put the detergent in and push the on button. So this was a stretch to be that guy for. thank you so much.

Kristy (37:59)
haha

You did a good job.

Jerry (38:13)
Hey, we've got a boot camp coming up in New York City, April 26th, 27th, I think, right? Which would be real springtime then, real spring. I can't wait for that. And you can come and laugh and learn and practice better ways of doing things and figure out in real life, in real time, why you do the things you do and how you.

Kristy (38:20)
Yes. Yep, that's right.

Yeah, it'll be beautiful there.

Jerry (38:42)
trip yourself up with your partner and figure out better ways, right?

Kristy (38:47)
Yeah, yeah, it's such a great experience. So good to see outside of your own little world.

Jerry (38:56)
to listen to other people? Because somehow when you're hearing that other people did the exact same thing you did last week, you look at it like, well, that's absurd. You know, why would you do it that way?

Kristy (39:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, or, my gosh, I'm like that too. And then we can see ourselves with less ego and feel united.

Jerry (39:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, and start, if not laughing at it, at least having compassion. Like, I guess these are some crazy places we all go. yeah. Anyway, well, thank you, and I will see you next time. Be well, okay? All right? See you. Bye.

Kristy (39:26)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Okay, thank you too. You too, thanks. Bye.