Bad Couples Therapy

This was a topic that was requested of us to talk about, and which resonated with both Kristy and Jerry as a worthy one. When couples therapy goes wrong, or is unsatisfying to the couple that searched for help, why is this??? What type of connection, process and set of skills are necessary to have things click and move forward with good feeling for all involved? Kristy and Jerry consider this (along with a fake fight in which one person argues about the couples therapist favoring one of them over the other). 

Transcript

Jerry (00:06.102)
Hey, welcome to LoveWorks, Skills for Relational Life. Hi, Kristy.

We've just been, yeah, we've been wrestling with it. We've been inventing the computer and then putting it together and then trying to come up with the right software. That's like hell, isn't it?

It's supposed to be every, yeah, every time they add a feature to this podcast thing, it gets worse. Anyway, good to be with you. Yeah, good to, maybe that goes with today's topic, which, right? Which kind of is about things that go wrong. Things that go wrong. The topic is actually suggested to us at

Kristy Gaisford (00:30.861)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (00:36.729)
Hi Jerry! We've been together for a little while.

Kristy Gaisford (00:52.184)
Yeah, it's not very fun

Jerry (00:56.918)
the last bootcamp we did together, I think someone said, why don't you do one about bad couples therapy? I thought that sounds great.

Kristy Gaisford (01:04.611)
more complicated.

Jerry (01:10.818)
That sounds really, you know, and then I started thinking about how many times, and I'll ask you this question. Do you get frequently told that you are not the first couples therapist?

Kristy Gaisford (01:16.719)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (01:31.758)
I want to win this competition because I actually got told by someone last time that I was their eighth couples therapist.

Kristy Gaisford (01:33.497)
Yeah.

Jerry (01:44.13)
No.

Well, I think it's a really pretty well, I think, you know, you're always waiting to get fired when you hear that, you know, you know, when you hear that there's a long list of people who've been fired before you, or just didn't work out well, you can't just assume it was bad therapy on the therapist part, right? Like what, what else might it be? Yeah. Okay.

Kristy Gaisford (01:50.051)
Yes. Yes, many people have been to several.

Kristy Gaisford (02:06.091)
wow. And...

How are you doing?

Jerry (02:15.424)
Yes, explain that before we talk about Miss.

Kristy Gaisford (02:19.755)
Right, right.

Jerry (02:20.608)
Yeah. So it's in order for therapy to work, it's got to be a really nice blend of who the therapist is and how they work and the couple connecting with that person, right? In just an essentially good enough way.

Kristy Gaisford (02:34.654)
Right. Must be a hard couple.

Kristy Gaisford (02:41.092)
or difficult issues, you

Jerry (02:41.303)
So.

Yeah. So that not every interaction is fraught. And it's actually goes to something that, that I try to make a point to say whenever I do a bootcamp, which is that I make mistakes and I make mistakes every day. And presumably everyone in this room makes mistakes. Is there enough room in a couples therapy for someone to misspeak or have bad timing or something?

Kristy Gaisford (03:02.486)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. A comfort level. An understanding.

Jerry (03:13.014)
and have it not blow the whole thing wide open. So that's one question. We're not gonna assume in our discussion today that everything is all the fault of the therapist.

Jerry (03:30.434)
That

Kristy Gaisford (03:51.106)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. mean, I think that there's a lot of factors involved. There's the couple, both people in the couple and the therapist. And yeah, I mean, I had a couple and I really didn't feel like I was a good therapist for them. I just.

Usually I feel like I can really understand both people and I can really sort of like put myself in their shoes and kind of feel instinctively almost the energy of each person and where they're coming from and this this one couple I just couldn't I couldn't seem to understand them or like really locate what they how they felt about their relationship or what they wanted from me or what they wanted from the

Jerry (04:22.872)
Hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jerry (04:36.078)
I think you raised a really interesting point that we don't speak about enough, which is to make explicit, why are we even meeting? What is it that's being looked for here? And if it's not the same between the two people, there's going to be a internal factor working against the success of it from the very beginning.

Kristy Gaisford (04:46.52)
therapy and I found myself feeling really confused and They they quit therapy and it's probably because I didn't get them. I wasn't the right one

Jerry (05:04.044)
Because how do you even measure success then? And I think it's one of the first mistakes people can make with a couples therapy is to go in for different reasons, expecting different things. So I can think of examples, but I had one most recently where someone really wanted to work on the details of co-parenting because they were separated.

Kristy Gaisford (05:29.572)
Yeah.

Jerry (05:34.342)
And the other person really wanted to work on getting to the relational depths of what went on between the two of them. And, you know, there was not an agreement. There's no bad people here. It's just if you're going into it expecting different things, you're going to get really aggravated with either the process or the therapist fast, I'm thinking.

Kristy Gaisford (05:56.696)
Mmm.

Kristy Gaisford (06:04.228)
So.

Jerry (06:04.77)
Yeah.

So I don't think we can presume that people know how therapy is supposed to go or what it's supposed to be or what it's supposed to talk about. And I think that's one of the first things I can think of an example of bad therapy is not being clear on what we do here or how it goes or what the rules are or what we're looking for. And I always try and ask people early on, if this was to be successful, how would we know?

Kristy Gaisford (06:21.836)
Yeah, and both people will probably be unsatisfied because they didn't have the same goal in the first place.

Jerry (06:37.206)
What would we be looking for? How will we measure success?

I think that's helpful.

Jerry (06:54.016)
Yeah. And you can also refer back to it then like session number six. Remember in session number one, when we said you'd measure success by the following ways, how are we doing with that? So I think failure to do that and just kind of meeting and hanging out and saying, hmm, so where are we? You know, is like, that's too floaty for me.

Kristy Gaisford (07:07.972)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I try to start every first session that way too. What do you hope to get out of therapy? What would be different if this was successful?

Jerry (07:22.624)
I wouldn't do that. Anyway.

Jerry (07:37.472)
That's good after you know why you're even doing the whole project together, I think. But I'm sure you have a list. I put together a list and you put together a list and we don't know what we wrote. So maybe you could say your first thing and I'll respond and then we'll go down our list together. Bad therapy elements, you know?

Kristy Gaisford (07:48.716)
Well yeah, I mean guess it depends what you mean by that. Sometimes I say, where are we today? Because I'm trying to say, where are we, where are we today? Like where should we begin?

Jerry (08:03.822)
Hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (08:13.603)
Okay.

Okay, the first one I wrote for bad couples therapy is when couples are allowed to just fight in the office like they do at home. When you don't have control of the session or the room and the couple is just going off on each other and the therapist is just sitting there watching them. Like that's to me very bad therapy.

Jerry (08:18.218)
It can be used for dramatic effect once.

Jerry (08:28.044)
Yeah, I know one therapist who let it go on once and said to them, I'm going to get up and be in the other room reading a newspaper. Like you let me know when you guys are done. Got up and walked out, you know, but for a serious, serious process, just watching people wail away at each other and allowing it to happen. Cause there's usually some level of upset or abuse.

Kristy Gaisford (08:43.797)
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Like to give you an idea of what goes on at home.

Jerry (08:57.228)
doesn't strike me as healthy or good therapy either. agree with you. I agree. All right, here's the first one I had. A fragile young therapist, I'm sorry, but they tend to be really young. A fragile therapist who you feel you really can't or don't wanna tell everything to, because they'll get too upset.

Kristy Gaisford (09:00.993)
Yeah Wow

Kristy Gaisford (09:25.441)
What did you write?

Jerry (09:28.93)
Yeah, I think you want someone durable and who's kind of heard and seen it all and can take. No, and they're gonna take care of themselves. They're gonna go home and have a nice dinner and interact with their partner, you know? Yeah, you don't have to worry about taking care of the therapist. So I'd say that's a hallmark of bad therapy when the client worries about taking care of the therapist.

Kristy Gaisford (09:42.723)
Oh wow. Yeah, that's not good. Um, yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (09:57.323)
Right, nothing you're going to say will shock them.

Jerry (09:58.774)
Will they be okay? Go ahead.

Kristy Gaisford (10:03.491)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (10:07.918)
Hmm?

Kristy Gaisford (10:19.04)
Okay, well I'm going to go out of order and say another one then. I think another one is when the therapist does all the talking and takes up all the space and it's like, that's not what we're here for, to have you talk at us. We didn't even get, we don't feel even understood yet and now you're just trying to fix us.

Jerry (10:20.27)
And what is it the therapist is saying? I'm asking you, Kristy, what is it usually the bad therapist is saying when they do that?

Kristy Gaisford (10:51.959)
Well, I don't know. I could tell you a personal example. I went to therapy with my first husband and the very first session, the woman starts talking about how, well, some couples aren't meant to stay together. My parents got divorced and they were very happy and just went on and on and on. And it was our first session. I was, yeah. And I think she was telling us to get divorced, but

Jerry (10:53.998)
about her parents' divorce?

Jerry (11:08.035)
Ha

Kristy Gaisford (11:20.931)
The thing is, we hadn't even, it was our first session. I just remember thinking, I can't believe this. We haven't even told her anything yet. And she's just talking and talking and talking about her own parents' divorce and how some couples are better divorced.

Jerry (11:21.314)
Wow. Wow, that's bad.

Jerry (11:36.824)
and you didn't get to arrive at it on your own time or, whew, wow. Okay, that's bad. All right, I have another one. Therapist is afraid to bring up something with one of them and then tells the other.

Kristy Gaisford (11:46.667)
Yeah, and the thing is, some couples are better divorced and I did end up getting divorced. So it's not about that. It's about the fact that I did not feel heard at all.

Kristy Gaisford (11:59.795)
No, exactly.

Jerry (12:01.612)
like telling the other something, because they don't want to bring it up with the one. And I guess, I mean, let's just say this here that it's fairly common for couples therapists to offer a singular session with you and then another session with you, the other partner, and then bring them together again, which is different from being an individual therapist.

Kristy Gaisford (12:08.963)
Okay, what's your next one?

Jerry (12:27.382)
This is sort of a gripe I have. This is almost feeds into two problems at once. But I think, I think it is true that if you're meeting with someone who's one half of a couple, they want to know if you're the couple's therapist, are you going to be telling my partner this? I mean, there's a real question about confidentiality. If I tell you about an, an affair, are you going to be telling my partner this?

I think they need to know the answer to that before they have an individual session with you. I think you have to lay out the ground rules for that. You have any thoughts about that?

Kristy Gaisford (13:05.891)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (13:10.198)
What I say is if I hear of something that I like, I'm the couples therapist and I'm meeting with you and I will call out whomever I think is hurting the relationship. will call them out in couples therapy. And, but if I hear something in this individual session with you, yes, it's confidential, but I'm going to strongly encourage you to bring it up in the next session. I'm not going to call your partner and rat you out.

Kristy Gaisford (13:26.115)
And what do you say to that?

Jerry (13:38.582)
and say, guess what I heard in my session with that person today? You do have confidentiality with me unless you're planning to hurt that person. I do think you should speak about certain things in the next session and I'm gonna encourage you to do so. And if you don't...

I don't think we can move forward meaningfully. I would put pressure on that person to tell the truth and I'm not going to tell the truth for them. What's your thoughts?

Kristy Gaisford (14:22.359)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (14:30.376)
That's a whole different thing if it really doesn't feel safe. Right? I think.

Kristy Gaisford (14:31.203)
I do agree with you. do think there's some...

And what's coming to my mind is when I've had women that are in very abusive relationships, I might go against that a little bit where it doesn't feel safe to...

Jerry (14:43.128)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (14:52.458)
Yeah, but generally I agree with you, but yeah, there are issues of safety where I might say something to the woman and say, hey, I can tell that you don't feel safe what's going on here. And if the man has expressed a lot of volatility, it's delicate. Those situations are very delicate.

Jerry (14:56.086)
Agreed. All right, do you have another one?

Kristy Gaisford (15:19.114)
Yeah, this is a little similar to what I already said, but when there's no direction to the therapy, when there's no, like you're not, you, there's no clear, it's like the therapist doesn't know where they're going. They're just, what about you? What about you? it's almost like they're, they're just letting the people talk, but without a purpose. And I get that it's hard sometimes for the clients to know there's a purpose. Like sometimes,

Like I know where I'm getting and I know why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. I feel like it's also hard. So I'm going to say, I guess both sides of this. It's also hard when I have a client that won't let me lead, that's trying to take over and I'm, and I'm thinking, just trust me. I know where I'm going. This is going to be helpful. Just please trust me. And they, they don't trust me and they want to keep taking it back to their agenda. That, that makes it hard as a therapist.

Jerry (15:55.628)
Yeah.

Jerry (16:02.21)
Yeah.

Jerry (16:05.996)
Yeah, agreed. And that reminds me that there's really two different types of couples there. There's many different types, but one is just reportage. People who just report about their fight at shop, right this week. And this is like a killer for 50 minute sessions because they can do 50 minutes about what happened at shop, right. And leave without any insight into their dynamics.

Kristy Gaisford (16:16.054)
But then there's also the therapists that don't really have any direction and I don't think anyone knows where they're going.

Jerry (16:34.912)
other than he do that and she did this and blah, blah, blah. No, I didn't. Yes, you did. You know, and the clock is running and then next week they'll talk about their fight at Costco. if there's, know what I mean? And, they'll maybe even feel a little bit better after leaving it with you. But that's not the best of couples therapy unless you get to why are you fighting?

What does it feel like to be at the receiving end of that fight? What does it make you get like? What do you do? Why are you not reaching for the best version of yourself? What stands in the way? So that kind of reportage goes along with that kind of floaty couples therapy of, we're out of time. Next week, we'll talk about your next week argument. You know, it doesn't strike me as, and then they quit therapy saying the therapist wasn't any good.

Yeah, the therapist was terrible, you know, and maybe maybe therapists refused to take the reins and help them get to where they needed to go. That might be true. OK, I've got. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you.

Kristy Gaisford (17:44.533)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (17:48.98)
Mm-hmm! Because it wasn't helpful.

Jerry (17:52.823)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (17:55.02)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (18:02.946)
Can I go now? Cause mine's exact, mine is the same. So I just want to say it while we're on it. I said, when it's all about therapy is bad, when it's all about solving the issue of the day, when they just want the therapist to be the referee, who was right? Who was wrong? Can't you see that he's the one or she's the one that was off? instead of using the issue of the day, because it is useful.

to get a deeper understanding of why these issues are coming up. What is it in me or my personality that's getting triggered in this moment? What part of me is feeling hurt and why? And why is this so upsetting? And why is this issue coming between us, right? So that's why we as therapists ask for details about an issue that just came up.

Jerry (18:32.256)
It's well put. Yeah.

Jerry (18:56.664)
I agree. think you said it very well. You said it very well. There's a related pitfall for, so one that you've just spoken about is not getting deep at all. And another pitfall is taking the fight of chop right and somehow losing it and going immediately to theory for, we're talking about therapist errors now.

Kristy Gaisford (19:00.706)
so that we can see the deeper things and address the deeper issues. If it's just staying on the shallow topic of what happened and who's right or wrong, it's bad there.

Jerry (19:25.14)
like explaining why the field of therapy that you practice arrives at what it arrives at and this part of you, this part of you and that part of them and this part of, and suddenly they're all like, wait, we were talking about shop, right? You know, and it's not linked back to the incident. Even it's just linked to a big understanding of theory in the sky or something. And I've seen that I've watched videos of

Kristy Gaisford (19:27.938)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (19:48.627)
no.

Jerry (19:54.594)
Therapists doing that, you know, it's like who are they talking to they're losing the people in front of them They're glazing over and those people will quit Those people will quit because they don't feel like that. It's different What you're talking about is let's get deep and understand what just happened and relate it back to that and how you can be different next week That's good therapy But just going into the ozone with a theory

Kristy Gaisford (19:55.554)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (20:20.609)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (20:24.814)
Another one I had that I've heard about is the therapist getting dysregulated and more upset about something they're hearing from them than the couple even was.

Jerry (20:38.742)
And it must have hit on their issues.

Kristy Gaisford (20:50.498)
yeah, that's Yep.

Kristy Gaisford (20:58.589)
This is super interesting because we're kind of thinking very similar things in different ways, but mine was a lot like that. It was a little different, but it was when the therapist thinks they know without really taking the time to understand. So they just project their experience or like, I know this type. This is the type of person that's like this. And then they just project that onto the person and, the

Jerry (21:03.426)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jerry (21:28.256)
That's well put. Yes. And it's glaring and embarrassing when it's sort of cross-cultural too. When they're like acting as if they know therapists or acting as if they know, I know about Filipino culture. I saw that on TV once. Something like that, you know, just like making some presumptions instead of asking good questions.

Kristy Gaisford (21:28.839)
it's not accurate and the person doesn't feel understood. But the therapist is more, I guess, interested in being the expert and thinking they know than really finding out.

Jerry (21:54.262)
I think we owe it to our clients to ask really good questions and leave our assumptions or biases at home.

Kristy Gaisford (22:04.139)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (22:17.474)
Actually, my most humbling moment as a therapist is the time I did that. I assumed this client was a certain way and I realized I was wrong and I felt really bad and I had to call him and his partner and apologize.

Jerry (22:22.872)
That's so good that you did. That's so good that you did because you're modeling for them what a repair looks like.

Yeah.

Jerry (22:44.034)
They stay with you though? They didn't fire you on the spot, right?

Kristy Gaisford (22:45.163)
Yeah, it actually taught me a lot because I have tried really hard not to make assumptions like that again because it was bad. I felt horrible.

Jerry (22:51.06)
Yeah, so...

Jerry (23:01.164)
I think sincere repairs that are well articulated are usually accepted. know, apologies and accepted with empathy. How about this one? See if this has happened to you. And this is, I'm not presuming all couples therapists feel the same way about this. The therapy starts going to a certain point. You ask the right questions. One of them gets really hot and upset and pissed off at you.

Kristy Gaisford (23:02.251)
Well, you know, the best thing is they've referred a lot of friends. So I think, good, at least, at least the repair worked. Like I really sincerely felt bad. So they forgave me. I assume.

Jerry (23:30.798)
and says, that's it, I'm done. No more couples therapy, right? I'm done. And they may even say, you can talk to this guy if you want to. You go ahead, go ahead, talk to this guy. And the other person goes, thank you. Okay, you get out of the picture. You are so wonderful. You're so wonderful, Kristy. Can you be my individual therapist now that he's out of the picture?

Kristy Gaisford (23:48.577)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (23:54.058)
And I'll tell you how I feel is that I'm the couples therapist. I will always be the couples therapist in their mind. And if I switch an abandoned ship and become the individual therapist to the noble survivor that I've bought into something that is very different than

an individual calling you and asking, can you do individual therapy with me? So I won't switch from being a couples therapist to one of their, there've been times where I've made an exception and I'm not sure it was wise to have made an exception. But so I'm not saying I haven't made mistakes either. All these mistakes were recognizing because we may have touched upon them, but I won't these days become someone's individual therapist.

after it falls apart with their other partner.

Kristy Gaisford (25:08.353)
I have done it if the relationship ended, but I agree it gets sticky sometimes. But if it's over, then sometimes I will.

Jerry (25:10.764)
Yeah, because maybe the partner, I mean, how does that other partner feel about it? Let's say they even approve and want you to go ahead and talk to Christy. Go on. I don't care. Maybe that's delegating to you some job of understanding this person that they don't want to do anymore. It's just too

Kristy Gaisford (25:45.941)
Well, I guess I see what you're saying. here's my counterpoint to that. Sometimes I think you can be, you can be really helpful when you know both people, where if you have never met the other person and you just have an individual client, you can, mean, that's a different podcast maybe when individual therapy goes bad. But when you only get one side of the story, you can

really enable this, that sounds awful. You can like over validate this one person's point of view because you don't get the other party and then if you know the other party, I think you can be a better therapist in some ways. So I don't know, this is tricky stuff I think, but, and I'm not a very black and white person so I'm gonna admit that, but.

Jerry (26:26.67)
All right, you have another one on your list? Yeah.

Jerry (26:39.246)
Yeah, showing up for your appointment and the therapist has another client couple. In other words, the therapist screwing up the appointment. Now I've screwed up appointments. We have both done that. When I went to an online scheduling instead of my old book was when three people showed up at the same time in my office years ago.

Kristy Gaisford (26:42.29)
I mean generally, yeah. Okay.

Do you have one? I have to look mine up.

Kristy Gaisford (27:03.543)
I've totally done that.

Jerry (27:07.498)
Each of them had a card from me that said that same time. It's like, okay, I really screwed up. So that happens once, people can forgive it. If that happens numerous times, that's bad therapy. So that was it.

Kristy Gaisford (27:40.128)
Yeah, I hate it when I do that. I feel terrible. It's not that often. Thank goodness. Okay, the other one I have is when the therapist allows abuse to take place in front of them. When somebody is going off on their partner and in therapy and the person is usually a pretty intimidating, obviously person and the therapist doesn't confront them or

Jerry (27:42.284)
Most definitely.

Jerry (28:04.108)
Yeah, what kind of message does that send?

Kristy Gaisford (28:09.672)
or stop it and they allow it to take place in the office.

Jerry (28:10.252)
that it is within the realm of health to be abusive, you know? It's the opposite. And if we call it out vigorously, we may get fired, but it'll be worth it. It'll be worth it because that person who was being abusive will have seen that someone else has seen it. And the person who was the subject of all the abuse.

Kristy Gaisford (28:35.092)
Yeah, mm-hmm.

Jerry (28:39.84)
will see that someone else saw it and be empowered. And that doesn't mean they'll be your client necessarily, it just means that they'll maybe go on to stand up for themselves with more energy and leave, perhaps if they need to leave.

Jerry (29:01.262)
I think one hallmark of bad therapy and couples therapy is simply asking questions that can be answered with yes or no.

Kristy Gaisford (29:09.48)
Yeah, it's more data for them.

Jerry (29:18.222)
I think that's a kind of beginner rookie mistake. So they answer yes or no. How do you know anything more about what it's like to be them or the relationship? You know, like it's the difference between asking clients, are you still sexually active with each other? Yes. Versus when was the last time you made love and how was it?

for you is really different question. And I try and ask questions that open people up to hitting on what the issues are, not just fill out a census data report, you know. So yes or no questions to me go in the category of mistakes.

Kristy Gaisford (29:51.109)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (30:02.644)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (30:11.699)
Let's see...

Kristy Gaisford (30:21.886)
Yeah, definitely.

Kristy Gaisford (30:26.591)
I think good couples therapy, I'll just say it that way, you do confront people with love, the message that you do believe in them and you are rooting for them and I care enough about you to tell you what's getting in your way and it might be hard to hear but I'm saying this because I'm trying to help you. And I think when you can do it that way, people...

are grateful because they do want to know, but if you don't say it, they can't know. And if you say it harshly, they're not going to be able to hear it. And if you're too gentle, they might not get the message. So I do think there's an art to the way you can gently confront people.

Jerry (30:57.358)
Yeah.

Jerry (31:04.152)
Good. I have about three questions to ask you what your feeling is about these three. These are question mark mistakes in my, like, I don't know. Different people are going to answer it differently. The therapist eating lunch during a session.

Kristy Gaisford (31:21.002)
Okay.

Jerry (31:24.557)
Why not?

Jerry (31:30.03)
Okay, it's more like this is a really good pickle right now. Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (31:32.048)
No, I don't like that.

because you're not totally focused on the person. It's distracting.

Jerry (31:39.822)
Therapists telling people what they must do.

Kristy Gaisford (31:45.364)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (31:54.652)
No, I don't like that either. think that, I think people need to decide what they're gonna do. I think the therapist helps them figure it out in their mind and helps them see the different options and helps them figure out what they're really feeling or maybe avoiding. But I don't think they say, you need to do this.

Jerry (32:03.971)
Yeah.

Yeah, I know I as a person don't like to be told what to do, but I do want to hear people's opinions about their options facing me. You know, I just saw this again in, watched, you know, I watched The Sopranos over and over again. I've watched it many times. David Chase, the creator of The Sopranos said that in the whole thing of it, six seasons or something,

There was only one character who really told the truth. And that was the therapist that Carmella went to see when she was so distraught about Tony. And he told her, he made this mistake, but then he correct himself. He said, you've got to, if you want to have any self-respect at all, take the kids and leave. And she's crying, crying, crying saying, my priest told me that

I've got to work on helping Tony be a better man. And the guy just says, yeah, how's that working out for you? And she starts crying some more. And he said, look, you're going to do whatever you want to do. But all I can say is don't ever say you haven't been told.

And that was it. Yeah. And I thought, okay, that is better than telling her she's got to leave. Just say, here's what happens. If you want self-respect, you can do this. If it doesn't matter to you, don't do this.

Kristy Gaisford (33:36.859)
Wow.

Jerry (33:51.958)
Yeah, say more about that.

Kristy Gaisford (33:53.225)
Well, there's one other part of this too, though. I think a lot of people don't like being told what to do, but I think some people want to be told what to do. that takes the, if you tell them what to do, it takes the responsibility off of them. And their growth path is to make decisions for themselves and really find their own authority. So you rob them of that if you tell them what to do.

Jerry (34:06.38)
I agree.

Jerry (34:11.054)
Yeah, that's a classic mistake. If they say, pardon me once I moved to Paris, if you go, oh, Paris, yeah, go, go, go to Paris. know, well, my therapist told me to go to Paris. Yeah. Um, what about this? The therapist favoring one person in the couple over another person in the couple favoring.

Kristy Gaisford (34:32.131)
Right, right.

Jerry (34:42.602)
liking that person more and letting them both know it.

Kristy Gaisford (34:46.909)
Okay, what do you mean by favoring?

Kristy Gaisford (34:56.913)
I don't think that's good, but I think that we would be dishonest as humans if we said that doesn't happen on the inside sometimes. Because we're naturally drawn to one person or somebody might be more off putting, but it's our professional job to not show that or favor them in our actions. But I do think that that's something that you have to learn how to manage.

Jerry (34:57.346)
So I had, mm-hmm.

Jerry (35:16.238)
That's really interesting challenge because there's many a time where we're going to identify with the same sex person in a heterosexual marriage, say. Like, yeah, I get what that guy's saying, you know? Just like, mm-hmm. And then our task is, can you open yourself up to what she's saying and understand where she's coming from? And that may not be as...

natural or easy for us, but it's still not favoring him over her. I think that's what we have to get good at, is imagining the other and being open to the other.

Kristy Gaisford (36:02.707)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (36:02.728)
Kristy Gaisford (36:08.135)
Yeah, I agree. And realizing we have blind spots and we have projections also. So really being honest with ourselves.

Jerry (36:09.846)
Yeah, say more about that.

Jerry (36:13.998)
projections.

Kristy Gaisford (36:20.896)
We might identify with one, but that's because we might be more like that person, but we might not see how that person is hard because we're like them, but we're hard in those same ways. So that's why our own work is so important as a therapist, and it's so important to have a therapist, because otherwise you might be like, yeah, I really think he's right.

Jerry (36:33.912)
Yeah.

Jerry (36:46.67)
Ha ha

Kristy Gaisford (36:50.227)
because I'm like him. They're like, no, you're actually both wrong. You as the therapist and him both don't see how difficult you are. You're just difficult in a different way. So, you we have to be really honest and confront ourselves as therapists as well.

Jerry (36:52.802)
Yeah.

Jerry (36:59.374)
It's a challenging job, isn't it, being a therapist? Because we have to be there on so many different levels at once. I was thinking back to what you were saying about the therapist who talks too much, right? Or volunteers too much personal information. It's like, why? Is it really in response to what they're saying and asking about and going to help them? Or is it like, I finally have 45 minutes to talk with someone.

Kristy Gaisford (37:18.313)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (37:22.313)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (37:27.052)
You know, and the therapist event. So, Ellen has this thing up on her wall that she shared with me. says, wait, why am I talking? W A I T. Why am I talking about me? They're talking about them. Is it really for them and going to help them? I think that's something you

Kristy Gaisford (37:35.197)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (37:46.313)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (37:56.13)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (37:57.159)
You know, that's another example of bad therapy. I went to a therapist, I actually really liked him. But by the time he started telling me the same stories for the third time, I stopped going. I'm like, I don't understand why he keeps telling me these same stories. This isn't even what I'm here for, you know? So that's a good example. The first time the stories were great, but.

Jerry (37:59.928)
you

Jerry (38:08.47)
Yeah.

Jerry (38:14.862)
Therapists promising things they can't keep. Snake oil salesmen or women. In two sessions, I'm going to help you clarify the blah, blah, blah. I will do in 60 minutes what seven other therapists have never done with you. And you will reach the heights of understanding.

Kristy Gaisford (38:22.719)
But...

Jerry (38:45.014)
It's kind of hot.

Kristy Gaisford (38:49.128)
gosh.

Jerry (38:50.702)
You said that, not me. That was Christie talking, not me. That sounds to me like a huckster, like someone who doesn't appreciate that it takes time for people to go through the stages of change and to make often painful choices and then enact them in their life and then support the changes and then not know how to respond when you screw up. mean, this stuff takes some time. So it takes time.

Kristy Gaisford (38:52.585)
Do therapists do that? That sounds more like a coach. I know some do, you're right.

Jerry (39:20.91)
Yeah. So I think quick and swift is not always, it can be how you make a change maybe, but sustaining the change and making it good and knowing how to treat yourself when you don't reach that mark. That's something over time that can I put in a plug for this? Because I just have, I just put together the reboot program that

Kristy Gaisford (39:25.169)
It does. It takes time and practice and awareness.

Jerry (39:50.88)
is meant for people who've been to boot camps with me, you, other types of boot camps, Harville Hendricks, just Gottman things. People who go to boot camps, listen to podcasts like ours, read books, come home and find themselves arguing the same old way despite having a wealth of information. There's a lot of people like that. So I've

put together an in-person weekend in Warwick in February, followed by seven two-hour Zoom support group meetings with the same people starting in February, 2026. It's a new idea, but I'm taking it from the feedback that people give about what helped them during the boot camps, which was connecting with other people and listening to other couples talk. And I think

group support for the changes over time is helpful and is something we haven't yet really addressed, not just we, but you know, that's unaddressed in the field. Like you have these great, we'll see if it can happen, but that's on, you'll find a link for that on my website, thesandsoftime.net. And you've got stuff happening in 2026 that's exciting. I want.

Kristy Gaisford (40:49.906)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (41:06.608)
Yeah, I think that sounds wonderful.

Jerry (41:17.42)
you to mention too.

Kristy Gaisford (41:23.42)
Yeah, I'm taking, I've been studying the Enneagram for the past six years and I just got certified in the Enneagram. So I thank you. I'm going to be doing a workshop several, but I'm going to start in the spring of 2026 doing a workshop for couples using the Enneagram and in there to help them with their understanding. And I love the Enneagram because every single person is a type.

Jerry (41:25.954)
Congratulations.

Jerry (41:48.303)
Except me. Yeah

Kristy Gaisford (41:52.434)
which means we all have amazing qualities and difficult qualities. And it takes the shame away to me. It's not about who's right or wrong or bad or good. It's just about this is the type structure I have and this is the type structure you have and how can we grow and how can we integrate and how can we see the places that really kind of where we get stuck and do it differently. So.

Jerry (41:55.757)
No.

Jerry (42:13.07)
And it also involves some compassion for these different types, I'm guessing, too.

Kristy Gaisford (42:23.55)
Totally. Yeah, it's like once you know you don't expect them to be different and you're like, yeah, that's why I do this with my husband all the time. no, that's why he's doing that. He's just trying to protect me. He's not being, you know, whatever.

Jerry (42:30.444)
This is great. Is this going to be an in-person weekend in Salt Lake? somewhere in. OK, good. And we're also gathering in New York City to do our boot camp that we've done before in New York City in the end of April, I think. And we're trying to write books. Well, I take out the words trying to. We are writing books.

Kristy Gaisford (42:39.291)
Yeah, it's going to be in person and I don't know where exactly yet. So I'll keep you updated.

Jerry (43:00.852)
And I think our 2026 challenge should be to finish those books, you know? Okay. And we're writing different books, folks, but you know, we're both writing a book and we'll talk more about that next podcast. But any, any other thoughts you have about it? feels so blitzed to just talk about bad therapy because

Kristy Gaisford (43:01.18)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (43:14.259)
Okay, let's do it. Okay.

Jerry (43:30.286)
I would say to anyone who's had elements of these things appear in your therapy with your therapist, challenge your therapist about it. Bring it into therapy and say, you know what, this happened this way. I didn't think that was right or I didn't appreciate it. I wasn't sure you were doing a great job there. I got upset. I know I am loving it if someone brings in that to me.

Kristy Gaisford (43:58.974)
Or ask them what works for you or what you would like more of and what doesn't work. I think none of us are perfect and we could all use some feedback. So, I agree.

Jerry (44:06.294)
Yeah, if you could have a little compassion that your therapist is a human being too and trying to do the best possible job and that you're not always an easy piece of cake to work with either, then there's some general human compassion in the room. And if you really don't feel seen and valued and understood or that person has really bad habits, find another therapist.

Jerry (44:37.507)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (44:37.917)
Yeah. And I, can I just maybe add on this positive note? I love, I just love couples therapy. And I want to say that, I just, I think it can be really good. And I think it's fast and well, I just, I love people so much and I love, I think most people really do mean well and they're just trying to be understood and appreciated. And

Jerry (44:46.402)
What do you love? Say what you love about it. Why do you love it?

Kristy Gaisford (45:05.114)
our own wounding and personalities are getting in the way of that. And I love it when people can start to see things differently and really appreciate their partner in a new way and receive that appreciation. And I love it when couples start to heal. I think we hurt each other not on purpose. And so it's nice when we can start to see, can see how that part of my personality is hurtful.

but I didn't see it before. I just thought I was protecting myself. And once we can start to see it, we can really be different and show up differently in the relationship.

Jerry (45:41.912)
Really nice. I can't think of anything to add to that, Kristy. That's really well said. I agree with it all. good. It's been good talking.

I don't want to fight. Do you want to fight? What would we fight about?

Kristy Gaisford (45:54.492)
Are we not fighting today then?

Sorry.

Jerry (46:01.326)
That therapist or something? I... Yeah, I'm trying to think how we correct it. I know how we correct it. All right, yeah, I'm up for it if you want to do it. You want to be the one accusing or you want to be the one who the therapist likes better?

Kristy Gaisford (46:04.377)
the... yeah, the therapist that likes you better.

Kristy Gaisford (46:19.462)
Okay.

Kristy Gaisford (46:28.432)
I don't care what do you think or did you have an idea when you said I know how to correct it?

Jerry (46:29.742)
I'm a little afraid of my own aggressive energies after this technology stuff, but I guess. OK, all right, you be the one who the therapist likes better. So this is after the therapy session, right? So we're going to stop going to that therapist. Are we we done with couples therapy? Because I don't think it's really helping.

Kristy Gaisford (46:39.07)
Oh good, use it then. Use it.

Kristy Gaisford (46:49.895)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (46:56.502)
because he always takes your side, because he always takes your side. He likes you, he likes you, Christie, he just likes you. It's clear, like, I could see the two of you sitting next to each other in high school smiling at each other. You know, the therapist just likes you.

Kristy Gaisford (46:58.385)
Why do you think it's helping?

Kristy Gaisford (47:02.797)
No he doesn't. What are you talking about? You always say that if you ever-

Kristy Gaisford (47:19.837)
Oh my god, whenever a therapist calls you out on anything, you just want to quit therapy. It's not that he likes me, he's just trying to help you see something and you won't see it.

Jerry (47:21.346)
He doesn't get me.

Jerry (47:27.913)
help me see something about how it's all my fault. He just...

Kristy Gaisford (47:35.001)
No, but it partly is your fault. Why do you think we're there? We're trying to figure out-

Jerry (47:36.344)
Well, many times, yeah, how many times has he like challenged you about your Christie ways, you know?

Kristy Gaisford (47:47.569)
He's challenged me, but maybe you have to go first. I don't know. Why can't you just be open to what he's trying to help us with? You just get so defensive, he can't get anywhere with you.

Jerry (47:54.614)
I think he helps you by showing understanding of how hard it is to deal with me or people like me or something. don't, you know, like I didn't go to that college that he went to, more of a down to earth guy. And I get it. He doesn't, he doesn't watch football games on Sunday afternoon. He doesn't, he like reads journals of couples therapy or something. don't.

Kristy Gaisford (48:22.873)
I just feel like you're going to find something wrong with any therapist and I just feel like this is never going to go anywhere.

Jerry (48:26.998)
And you're gonna just like smile and wave and seduce any therapist until they agree it's all my fault. It's really like, why do I bother?

Jerry (48:42.582)
Yeah. that's terrible. That's terrible. Don't do that, folks. All let's see if we could solve the same issue differently. So, Christie, we're going to stop going a couple of serpies. It's obviously not really helping.

Kristy Gaisford (48:43.57)
Should we stop there? Okay.

Kristy Gaisford (48:57.437)
Okay.

Kristy Gaisford (49:07.153)
Hmm. What do you mean by that?

Jerry (49:08.812)
I mean that he seems to take your side all the time and really enjoy being aligned with you and being like you and pointing out how hard it must be to deal with me.

Jerry (49:26.11)
I I really did, it's not the first time. Not the first time.

Kristy Gaisford (49:26.141)
That's how you felt today?

Kristy Gaisford (49:32.797)
Mmm.

with this therapist.

Jerry (49:36.481)
and the one before it.

him. I didn't mean to him in yet. I just get aggravated. feel like because that's not my world naturally, you know, therapy and feelings and stuff. And I'm a pretty down to earth guy. I don't know if he can understand me.

Kristy Gaisford (50:01.521)
Hmm

Jerry (50:04.064)
Mm-mm. I feel judged. feel like he knows he thinks he knows my type I have like, you know, I don't have a college educated job If you look down on

Kristy Gaisford (50:04.199)
So you don't really feel seen by him.

Kristy Gaisford (50:12.445)
Mm.

Kristy Gaisford (50:22.651)
I'm sorry you feel that way.

I mean, can I share my experience? I don't really see that in him. I felt like he was just trying to help you understand me today. So I don't know if...

Jerry (50:28.044)
Yeah, I can listen. I can listen. Yeah, yeah.

Jerry (50:42.466)
Hmm. And this just, it's true. That's true. I'm sorry I interrupted.

Kristy Gaisford (50:50.075)
I'm not saying, well I'm not saying it's not true, I just, wonder if, if some of it is just how you feel versus what he's doing. What do you think?

Jerry (51:00.014)
I, you know, I don't know how to approach it.

It's not like I want to blow up couples therapy. I just get frustrated that I feel like he's seeing 50 to 60 percent of it all. You know, I don't know. I think.

Jerry (51:20.29)
I think what might help is if you say that we had this discussion and that you are willing to give more time in the next session for me to just talk and him to interact with me. Not about me, not about me, not just about my problematic behaviors, but about what it's like to be me.

Kristy Gaisford (51:38.981)
Okay.

Jerry (51:46.146)
You know, that's, that's all right. I guess I want you to support me if I bring it up. Like, like I won't say we're out of here a couple of therapies over, but I'll just say, you know, I have concerns.

Kristy Gaisford (51:47.933)
Yeah, I'll do that. You want me to tell him or do you want to talk to him when we first get there?

Yeah, okay.

Kristy Gaisford (52:03.737)
Okay, I support that. I mean, I want you to feel comfortable too, or won't be good for either of us.

Jerry (52:06.488)
Okay.

I'm not trying to squelch, you you're talking there under trying to make it work.

Kristy Gaisford (52:19.953)
Yeah, I understand that. Let's do it. Yeah, you're welcome.

Jerry (52:21.39)
Thank you, thank you, all right, let's do it. Good. that was much better.

Kristy Gaisford (52:28.539)
Yeah, what do you think was better? What felt better?

Jerry (52:29.484)
It was possible.

You had a calmness about not fighting or reacting to me, even though I was being provocative. I mean, this is the skill that we're constantly trying to teach in a bootcamp. Like when your partner's provocative, do you have to automatically get provocative back? So I was provocative still, but you stayed calm and you made a choice, I'm guessing, to not join me in it.

Kristy Gaisford (52:58.725)
Yeah, I made a choice to get curious before I defended or said my point of view.

Jerry (53:00.718)
Yeah.

Jerry (53:05.772)
This is what we're always saying, it needs to be one adult in the room at any time, you know? And you let me vent in my creative way and then calmed it down just by your presence and your non-reacting, you know?

Kristy Gaisford (53:22.885)
That is a huge thing. If you can hold space for your partner and just hold space, they usually will get invalidate and just understand. They'll usually get themselves out of the place. They are. You don't have to do anything except hold that space.

Jerry (53:35.64)
Yeah, good.

Jerry (53:41.12)
Excellent. Well, all right. Good job. But we'll see you next time. Thank you.

Kristy Gaisford (53:45.053)
All right, thank you. Till next time. Okay. Yeah. Take care.

Jerry (53:49.58)
You too. Bye.

Kristy Gaisford (53:51.922)
Bye.