Subject to Interpretation

LGBTQ+ Language and Interpretation with Vinka Valdivia [EP 44]

January 09, 2021 DE LA MORA Institute Season 2 Episode 44
Subject to Interpretation
LGBTQ+ Language and Interpretation with Vinka Valdivia [EP 44]
Show Notes Transcript

'Subject To Interpretation' is a weekly podcast that deep dives into the topics that matter to interpreters.🎙 

In this episode we speak with Paul Panusky on the parallels and intersections of spoken and sign language interpreters.  Hosted by Maria Ceballos-Wallis. 

For our latest updates sign up for the newsletter or follow us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/delamorainst...
https://delamorainterpretertraining.a...

---
Vinka Valdivia is a CA State and Federally Certified Interpreter with over 26 years of experience in Translating and Interpreting. She works primarily in the courts but also works as a freelancer for agencies, private clients, and the federal government in legal settings, business meetings, and conferences. She’s also been a presenter at T&I national conferences, such as NAJIT and the ATA. She’s the first presenter who ever addressed the subject of LGBTQ+ Terminology & The Law. 

 

Speaker 1:

Welcome to subject to interpretation, a podcast, which takes us deep into the topics that matter to professional interpreters. I'm your host, Maria Sava Wallace. Welcome this program is recorded via zoom for both video and audio formats. Today, we're going to talk about L G B Q plus issues for interpreters with my colleague vinca Valvia. She's a state certified interpreter working in California. She's also a federally certified court interpreter with 26 plus years experience in court and conference interpreting. And she has done extensive research with respect to L G B T matters, and the law. Welcome VICA.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much. I am so happy to be here. I'm always passionate to talk about this issue.

Speaker 1:

Well, I am glad that you are here and you and I met at a magic conference a few years ago, San Francisco, I think. And you were presenting on this same subject for interpreters. In fact, I think that that was your first presentation and the first presentation of this kind for interpreters ever.

Speaker 2:

That's correct. Um, I was the first one to ever broach this subject in a professional setting for interpreters and translators. And I have to, uh, credit Nat because it was very well received when I, uh, uh, approached them with the subject and they said, absolutely, this, uh, this is an important subject and it needs to be covered. And we're glad that you're, that you've, um, approached us for the presentation.

Speaker 1:

Now, for me, this was the first time that I was exposed to the history of the L G B T movement, as well as the legislation and some detailed discussion of terminology. Why did you think it was important to share this information with interpreters in that setting?

Speaker 2:

You know, it wasn't being talked about at all. Uh, and, uh, even though this seems unlikely in our world of today, uh, that was what maybe six, seven years ago. Um, and it, uh, it, it was just under the radar really. Um, you could say it was in the closet. Um, so basically, um, it wasn't being dealt with professionally and I felt like as interpreters just as with any other, uh, terminology set, uh, whether it be weapons, uh, whether it be slang or whether it be legalese, uh, we as professionals need to be well versed and knowledgeable of the terminology, the correct terminology to use, uh, in whenever we encounter it and not to, uh, treat it as, as something that is, uh, arcane or something that, uh, we do not need to be aware of. So I thought it was very important to, to broach this subject in a legal set setting.

Speaker 1:

Now this is, um, terminology and perhaps a subject matter, that's a little bit more complicated than just, you know, guns or that, um, you know, standard terminology, legally terminology. Is, are there any other reasons why the interpreters should be more aware of the history and the issues that surround the L G B T movement?

Speaker 2:

Well, yes. Um, at, at the beginning, especially, uh, there was a lot more differentiation between, uh, various states, uh, where you had in some domestic partnerships, other, uh, other states had civil unions and, um, a few, uh, had gotten to the point of marriage. Uh, but marriage was seen as a very taboo subject and something that was not widely, um, accepted for the LGBTQ plus community at that time. Uh, and so it was important to kind of give that background to attendees. Uh, now since 2015, with the two, the SCOTUS, uh, decision where marriage is a national right now, uh, because of the law that was passed, that in June of that year, uh, things have changed a lot. And as I say, even, uh, talking about LGBTQ plus issues is much more widespread, uh, than it was, uh, when I first, uh, brought this subject up at the, uh, at the national conference.

Speaker 1:

So let's, let's go a little bit more into the details first things first, and that is that as an interpreter, you and I both know that acronyms are difficult under any circumstance, but when it comes to LGBTQ plus issues, there's a lot of distinctions and nuances that need to be considered. What should we know about this alphabet soup?

Speaker 2:

Okay. Um, well, everyone is pretty familiar with the basics. The L G B T, which is what, uh, came out first, uh, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender, uh, was the very first acronym that was, uh, widely used. And, um, you and I have discussed in the past how, uh, sometimes it's regionally used differently. So some places use LGTB or, uh, or G L B T. Um, I personally like to put the L first for lesbians because women tend to come second in society in general. And so I wanna put them in the front, um, to, to, to promote them and, and, and put them in a higher position. Um, and so then, uh, the Q got added later and the Q um, I always get asked about the queue, or you could say, I always get questioned about the queue because the queue is very complex. Actually, it's not as straightforward as everyone thinks. Uh, it does refer to, but it can also refer to questioning. So that's why I intentionally use that, uh, phraseology, uh, in, in my response. Um, so, uh, can mean any of the other words. So any of us who are either lesbian, gay, or bisexual or trans, uh, could also call ourselves, uh, which just basically means outside of the norm and, uh, and used to be used as an offensive term. And then it got kind of adopted it, got co-opted, um, by the LGBTQ plus community. Um, so to take away the sting of the slur. And so now we proudly some of us call ourselves, although, uh, I would say that, uh, the older you go in terms of generation, uh, some of the older generations don't appreciate that term because they remember those times when it, it came across as a very hard sting, but these days, a lot of people actually prefer than the other ones, because the other ones are too, um, whitewashed in a way you could say, uh, but then the questioning is also very important to include under the queue, because it also refers to people who say, well, I'm not really sure where I stand yet. Um, so I'm still trying to figure it out, but they're basically saying already, uh, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna put myself in a box I'm not conforming. And so all of that LGBTQ plus, um, uh, acronym basically refers to that, to nonconforming. Um, and nowadays, uh, the, the reason you include include the plus, or I include the plus, even though I'm not seeing it widely used yet is because there's several other letters in that acronym that are also important, um, and need to be included. And, and the main one right now is, uh, non-binary people. Um, so you can be trans and non-binary, um, and there's also intersex and asexual. Um, so there's, there's obviously a lot of different, uh, letters that can be included as you say, in that alphabet soup. And sometimes people complain that it could get too long, and that's why I at least include the plus, so that, uh, that you can be more inclusive as opposed to exclusive, which is, you know, when you're excluded you, you don't appreciate it. And that's how the acronym started in the first place.

Speaker 1:

Now, you mentioned binary as being an important part of this, um, of the plus can you talk a little bit about what that is and, and how it came about?

Speaker 2:

Yes, non-binary so, uh, non-binary, uh, refers to, and this, and this is more recent, so you, I probably didn't discuss it much if at all, when I gave the presentation to you those many years ago, but, um, it has become more and more common that, uh, people identify as non-binary. And what that means is, um, that they don't want to identify as either male or female, that they may consider themselves a combination of the two, or they may consider that they, uh, fluctuate between one or the other, depending on the day or the time of day. Um, and I know this is confusing to a lot of people, but it's basically saying just don't box me in, you know? Um, and so, uh, these are, uh, people who often, uh, use, choose to use different pronouns as well. So instead of, uh, of relying on she or he, which is choosing one or the other, that's what binary means. It's saying there's one or the other, and non-binary people say, no, there can be both, or neither. I may not identify as either, or I may identify as both, or I may identify as a combination of the two. And so, uh, and so that's what non-binary refers to. And a lot of times people who are non B non-binary, uh, like to use the pronouns, they, and them instead of, uh, she and her, or he and him. And, um, as you might see on my screen, I don't know if it appears, but I always put in my pronouns now to normalize that, so that if there are non-binary people in a group that they're not the only ones that are having to identify their pronouns,

Speaker 1:

Yes, vinca, we can see it on your screen. It says she and her. So is this a way of trying to perhaps be, make other people more familiar with this concept?

Speaker 2:

It's, it's more, for me, it's more a sense of normalizing it for, for, uh, non-binary people. So rather than putting the onus on them of always having to identify as they, them, or Z, Z other are, uh, various options, but just of having to make themselves stand out from the group. Um, if, if we as allies, uh, like myself, I'm not non-binary, uh, as you can see by my pronouns, but by actually stating my pronouns that opens a door for non-binary people to feel welcomed, to feel comfortable and not to put the onus on them, of being the only ones that are having to introduce pronouns and by normalizing it, then it welcomes them in. And so it, it allows us all to just be able to identify ourselves, uh, at the outset and not have to make it some strange thing. And actually this is becoming more and more common in academic circles in professional circles. So even though we may not have been familiar with this in the past, it really is becoming more and more established

Speaker 1:

In the court system. I've worked with a judge who asks defendants and parties, how they would like to be addressed. So including which pronoun they prefer. So I don't know how much of this comes from him being part of the LGBTQ plus community, but it always warms my heart to hear him take a moment, to show respect to everybody who he's addressing and affirm a person's right to self determination. Have you seen this often in the legal system?

Speaker 2:

I have not. And it really, I find that fantastic really, because I think it is an exception and it should be a rule and it should be something that becomes more and more common as I say. Um, and, uh, I think it is great, even if it takes a person from the LGBTQ plus community to do that, um, to at least set an example so that others can see it and say, Hey, maybe I should be doing the same thing. Even if I'm not a member of the LGBTQ plus community, just to allow people to identify themselves. And so that we don't use the incorrect pronoun for them

Speaker 1:

Now. Um, not being part of that community. Sometimes I fear that I might put my foot in my mouth because I, um, you know, I don't know the right way to ask a person, you know, what pronoun they pronoun they prefer, or, you know, anything like that. Um, what recommendations do you have for an interpreter working in a professional setting who gets thrown into that kind of situation?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think, uh, what I tell everyone always is it it's okay to ask. In fact, what you're doing by asking a person is you're telling them, I respect your self determination. I respect, uh, your ability to, uh, let me know who you are and to identify yourself as you want to be identified. So to say, go up to someone and say, uh, what is your preferred pronouns, uh, is perfectly acceptable now, obviously for people who are binary, they might find that strange because if they've always gone by she or always gone by he, then they probably aren't necessarily even, uh, used to that question. But again, if we normalize this, then people will become more and more used to the question. And it's especially important when we encounter someone who may not fit into a specific category that, uh, we are used to placing people into. And that's when it's most appropriate to, uh, go ahead and ask, you know, what are your preferred pronouns? Um, and the other way you can do it is by, you know, introducing yourself that way, just like I do on screen here, but you can do it aloud and you can say, hi, my name is vinca. Uh, my pronouns are she and her, what is your name and what are your pronouns? And then that basically also kind of just opens the door a little more easily for other people to do the same.

Speaker 1:

Um, why do you think it's so difficult for people to broach that subject or to, you know, step up and, and ask something that would seemingly because of the way you've explained it actually result in greater communication?

Speaker 2:

I think people just are not comfortable with this subject, uh, you know, and if you haven't really, uh, delved into, uh, LGBTQ plus issues, then all of this may seem strange to you. And, um, and, and all of the approach might be a little bit, um, uh, uncomfortable just because you're not familiar with it. Um, and so familiarity obviously is what we're, uh, striving for. And I always use the example of the term miss, right, that was introduced in the seventies, uh, with the civil rights movement and women trying to gain greater rights. And when that term was first introduced as an alternative to either miss or misses, so that we didn't have to distinguish between an unmarried woman or a young girl and a married woman. And, and women started to say, why, um, do men go by Mister their entire lives? And we have to use, you know, some identifier that, uh, either says that we're married or not married. And so the term MIS was introduced and people were like, oh, come on, that's a made up term. It doesn't exist in the language and this, that, and the other. And there was a lot of resistance to it because it was new and it was different, but I think it's the same with this kind of terminology. And this, this kind of approach is because it's new and different people are uncomfortable with it, but I think the more it gets used, uh, the more it will just be normalized and people will become more comfortable with it.

Speaker 1:

Now, talking about an experience that I had in immigration court, and I know you are also an immigration court interpreter, I, um, immigration court is, is rather unique in the sense that a lot, most of the time, people who are detained are, you know, seen through video and all you see is before you, um, interpret for that person is their name. And then, so I had a person who had a male name, but then appeared female. And so it was difficult for me cuz I had never encountered that kind of situation. And throughout the entire process, the judge addressed the person as male as him. And, um, it was clear from a type of testimony that was being given that, which was an asylum, um, interview asylum review that, um, the reason why this person was requesting asylum was because of fear of persecution for his or her, um, um, you know, orientation and, and life choices. So talk to me a little bit about that when, when an interpreter gets in that kind of situation and, and hasn't really prepared, what can an interpreter do?

Speaker 2:

What I tell people, uh, what I tell interpreters in this situation all the time is, uh, in that situation, uh, the responsibility is kind of off our shoulders because, uh, we are tasked with interpreting words. And so, um, even though the judge is using wrong terminology, we could say, or at least not respecting that person's identity, um, it is not incumbent upon us to correct the judge because we are interpreting words just as if the judge were to use, um, you know, the wrong word or if, or if a witness were to cuss at the judge. It's not for us to clean that up. We just interpret what is said. So if the judge is using the wrong pronouns, we have to interpret the wrong pronouns. And if they use, uh, the attorney is using the right pronouns, we use the right pronouns because we're interpreting for them. Uh, it would be different in a, uh, setting where you were, uh, working as, uh, in a attorney client meeting where you're prepping the client and then the attorney we're using the wrong pronoun. You might want to take a moment to, uh, have a side conversation with the attorney and say, this person is clearly presenting as another, uh, gender. And you may want to use this now, obviously, depending on how open-minded that attorney is or not, uh, that message may be well received or again may not be, but, uh, we are not allowed to do that in court. So, uh, unfortunately, or fortunately, uh, all we have to do at that point is interpret the words.

Speaker 1:

Now I am, um, partial to the interpreter's introduction, um, as well as the pre-conference briefing or the, um, the briefing that one has either with the attorney or the mediator or, or any of the parties who are gonna be, um, you know, directing the, the encounter. Um, how much of this do you think, um, interpreters can include in their interpreter's introduction?

Speaker 2:

Well, I don't think that there's any problem. Um, and in fact, um, I think you and I have talked about this in the past briefly. I don't think there's any problem whatsoever. If an interpreter were to say, um, uh, good afternoon, uh, I will be the interpreter for this courtroom. My name is, uh, vinca and my pronouns are, uh, she, her, and this is how we're going to proceed. Um, unless you have an interpreter coordinator or other people in that particular courtroom who, uh, will go up in arms because of that. But I doubt it. Um, I don't think that there's any problem with doing that. In fact, it may be quite similar to what your judge that you mentioned, uh, is doing and, and basically opening that door for people, uh, to feel included. So I think that that's, uh, a great way to approach it and unless you're told not to, I would continue to do it

Speaker 1:

Well, I'll give it a try and I'll let you know how it works out.

Speaker 2:

I would love to hear

Speaker 1:

Well, we also encourage, um, our listeners to also give it a try and see how that works out for them and just give us some feedback on also any kind of encounter that they have had, where they have had to put, um, these tools into youth when addressing transgender persons, what are some of the ways to deal with their pronouns?

Speaker 2:

Um, again, this is very similar to the other question that you asked about encountering someone, uh, unexpectedly like in a courtroom or something. Um, again, I would repeat that there is no problem at all. If you go up to someone and either introduce yourself and with your own pronouns, or just go up to them and ask, what are your preferred pronouns, a trans or non-binary person, uh, would be very appreciative of that, uh, because they would realize that you're acknowledging their difference and, uh, their non-conformity to traditional roles. And so, uh, they will, uh, find that you're being respectful of them. And, uh, so that's a really great thing to do. And, uh, just, uh, kind of to recap for people who have not taken my session in the past, um, when you encounter a trans man, then you that's, that's the correct term for a, uh, someone who has a transition to male and trans women would be the correct term for obviously the opposite, but usually if you just use the term trans that's that's enough, and sometimes you don't need to use that term because you don't go around saying, this is my straight friend Maria, or this is my, you know, BI friend, mark, you basically just say this is Maria or mark. So sometimes we make more of an issue of it than we need to, but just, if you need to use a term, then trans is, is enough. But again, just asking someone their pronouns is, is a good idea because it's acknowledging their difference and that you're being respectful of that difference.

Speaker 1:

Now, what about, um, other types of terminology that you, um, share in your workshop? Why is that terminology so important to understand?

Speaker 2:

Um, it just basically opens the door to a world that most, uh, uh, straight people, uh, or binary people are, are not familiar with. And for those people who are interested in learning about other communities, um, then, you know, it's, it's just a subject of interest. Um, so that it doesn't, uh, stay into this strange category, the, uh, original meaning of the word that we used to use, where, you know, it meant something off, uh, offensive and, and something that was, um, just incomprehensible and strange. Um, so sometimes I like to talk about some of the fun things that are in the community, such as, uh, the bear community. I always like talking about the bears because the bears, uh, differentiate themselves from what you think of as the traditional gay male, for instance, who, um, a, a lot of people in our community say that there's a, a big proportion of, of, uh, gay males that, uh, do 24 7 working out in the gym and looking buff and, and super clean and cut and well dress and all this. And the bears are, uh, some, a group of, um, gay males who are more natural, let's say, so some people say, oh, they're the fat gay males. And<laugh>, and it's like, no, they're not necessarily fat, but they're not, they're not preoccupied with spending all their extra time in the gym. They're not preoccupied with trying to transform their body into something that it is not naturally. And so, uh, some of them are a little bit heavier set and some of them are a little furier, you know, they usually tend to have more beards, um, and, uh, you know, and just be a little more hefty. Um, but just as a Teddy bear, they tend to be more cuddly according to them, you know, they tend to be like the, the, uh, tough on the outside and, and mushy on the inside kind of thing. And so there's a whole set of terminology that goes along with that bear community, where if you have, um, Asian people, then they're known as Panda bears and, um, and the, uh, you know, the lesbians or, uh, straight women who are friends of the bears tend to be known as mama bears because they're very caring and protective of, of the bears. And so you have, and then, oh, and then, uh, the, uh, the little baby bears or the new bears are known as oters<laugh>. So you have, you have a whole, you have a whole, uh, different terminology and there's, and there's things that I delve into in my sessions, which obviously take a lot longer to, to deal with additional terminology that people may not be familiar with. Um, one of the latest terms that people, uh, may not be familiar with, and that is important to know, and also important to know, to be respectful of someone is that if you do know a trans person, and maybe you knew them before they fully transitioned into themselves, um, uh, it is not appropriate to use the name that they were given at birth because that person never considered themselves that gender that was imposed upon them at birth. And so let's say it was me, obviously, I'm not a trans person, but let's say I, uh, I was Tom, I was named Tom at birth, and I was identified as male. And somewhere along the way I realized this is not me. It's never felt like me. I don't feel like I fit in. I don't share the same interests and aspects. And, and I identify myself as this group of people that I I'm always being lumped with. And so I transition and I become Veka, um, to, to continue to call me Tom, when I'm in constantly introducing myself as vinca is very disrespectful, that's known as a dead name. And so if you ever see the term dead name, that's what it refers to in, in that situation. That example that I've just given, it would be the name, Tom, and you see this most often in families and friends of a person who knew, uh, the person who transitioned. So, you know, they might run into them on the street or say and say, Hey, Tom, how's it going? You're like, my name is Vinco. Why do you continue to call me Tom? You know, I look different and I, and I present different and everything. So why are you insisting on doing that? Um, in the same way when we use the wrong pronouns, um, that's what we're doing to that person. We're basically disrespecting them, disrespecting their self expression and their self determination. And so maybe that helps people to understand a little better, uh, why, why we wanna move away from that.

Speaker 1:

So if you're in a legal situation where that person has not yet, um, changed their name legally, and they have a male name and they present as, as female and all of the, um, I guess everybody who's in that, in that legal transaction, uh, addresses this person by their legal name, then, then where, you know, what do you do? Um, or, or, you know, I probably guess what you would do, which is you would do your job. Um, but it would probably be somewhat, um, you know, create some kind of conflict within you.

Speaker 2:

It probably would, if you, uh, if you're trying to be respectful of someone and you're being forced to do that, obviously, uh, it's gonna make you uncomfortable. Um, but it's not unusual for, uh, for us interpreters to feel uncomfortable in certain settings when things are being done, right. Because we're not, we're not the ones that are the authors of the actions. We're just the interpreters in those situations. Um, however, if you step outta the courtroom and the attorney's talking to that person, you can then say, I'm sorry. Um, uh, I would just like to make sure that I'm using the correct pronouns for, for you, what are your preferred pronouns? So you can do it in that setting. You just can't interrupt the proceedings in court. And again, I I've, I've had a situation in immigration court a while back where, uh, one judge kept referring to somebody by their male name, even though they presented as female. Um, and the argument that the judge was using was because as you said, this person hadn't changed, uh, their name legally. Now, there, there can be all kinds of barriers for somebody to not be able to change their name. Uh, it takes money. Sometimes it takes an attorney if you're not familiar with the legal system, um, to, to jump all through those hoops and, and to fill out the right forms and know which forms to fill out and how to get them and where to file them and all of those things. And some states don't allow it. So it's not across the board, just like marriage a few years back. It's not easy across the board to be able to, um, to change your name from one, uh, to, from what you were given at birth, to what you would like to be known as, um, luckily some states are doing that now, uh, making it more easy for someone to change their name and also for somebody to identify as non-binary like on their license, um, or on their identification papers. So, um, this is something that I think is going to trend in that direction, but it's not across the board the same everywhere.

Speaker 1:

So vinca, in addition to speaking Spanish, you also speak German and German is interesting because in addition to there being, um, a masculine and a feminine gender for, um, words, you know, table or chair, there's also a neutral one. Do you have any experience with languages that are not gender based?

Speaker 2:

Um, I don't, um, have experiences with, uh, languages that are not gender based because even, uh, this smattering of sign language that I know is also gender based. Um, so I don't know how they deal with that. And it, it would be interesting to look into that and also to see what Germans for instance are, are doing with that with non-binary terminology these days. I, I haven't taken the time to look into that yet, but I know as far as Spanish is concerned, uh, you are starting to see more and more instead of, uh, the term AYOS, for example, which for Spanish speakers obviously refers to a group of people and it could be a combination of male and female, but as I always say, it's really, uh, a machista language. It's really a, a chauvinistic language because if you have 99, if you have a hundred people in a, in a room and it's 99 women and one man, then it becomes AOS for them. Right. And, um, and I always like to say it's a yes. Ma UNK. Right. Um, so, uh, so

Speaker 1:

That's them plus one,

Speaker 2:

Right? So it's, uh, using the female term for them, uh, plus one man. Right. Um, but obviously that's a little tricky to do and, uh, it kind of catches everybody off guard, but it kind of makes the point, uh, what's being done now to refer to people in a non-binary term is to substitute the term, the letter E for the O so that you don't automatically assume that the O refers to both male and female, because it really is a gendered language. And so now if you say a yes, then it refers to a group of people and it doesn't have that masculine connotation attached to it. Um, do this, you can see thought this instead of dodos, for example,

Speaker 1:

Which means everyone or

Speaker 2:

All every right. Everyone. Um, but it's a non-gendered way of saying that. So, so you're seeing that, uh, become more and more established, obviously there's great variation between, uh, one Latin American country versus another, because, uh, there are countries such as Argentina and, um, and Mexico, which have adopted, uh, same sex marriage, um, that I think are making more progress in these L G LGBTQ plus affairs. Um, but then there are other, um, countries that haven't, haven't gone that far. And so there is a wide variation depending on where you go, uh, what kind of changes are occurring in the language as well?

Speaker 1:

Well, I guess we're fortunate in English that we don't have to. I mean, obviously we have male gender, female gender, but we don't have, you know, the, the, the table is always the table. It's not a female table or a male table, so we don't have to worry about that in that case.

Speaker 2:

That's right. That's right. Uh, and we are also fortunate, um, going back to your earlier question, uh, of, of having the term, uh, which is so encompassing, right? Because, uh, I often get asked, how do you translate into Spanish? And what I have found is more and more, the term is being adopted directly. And people just say, you know, they pronounce it in a Spanish way, but, um, but there isn't a term that really encapsulates what that term does in English. And it is kind of nice to have one little word that kind of just is an umbrella term, um, that captures all of that.

Speaker 1:

Well, do you have any parting words for our friends who would like to have more information or who would like to learn more about LGBTQ issues and, um, who just really just want to be more, um, open to learning new things along this line?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Um, obviously the, the first thing I would do is to plug my own sessions. I'm constantly trying to, uh, give this session and update it every single time when I either present at Nat or at the ATA or at other conferences, local conferences, uh, I was supposed to present in Colorado, uh, this year, but O obviously with COVID that got canceled. So that would be my first plug because, um, E every iteration incorporates new terminology and, uh, new knowledge basis. Um, as, as I was saying to you before the whole nonbinary, uh, terminology and, um, and topic really wasn't, uh, it was kind of in its infant stage when I first gave the presentation. And so it really didn't get delved into very much, but other than that, there's all kinds of television programs. There's movies out there, uh, there's books that you can read. Um, and there are far too many to go into. Um, but, um, maybe I'll just list one or two. I loved the podcast, Nancy, um, which unfortunately got discontinued, but it was fantastic. It was, uh, it was a lesbian and a gay male, and they basically had conversations and, and shared their experiences and interviewed others on various subjects of interest to the LGBTQ plus community. Um, the fosters was a television show. That was good, obviously. Um, uh, uh, eye has always been fun. Um, there's just, uh, there's just sub plethora of choices out there now. Um, and the other thing is what I do is whenever I see anything in any newspaper that deals with LGBTQ plus issues, I read it because it I'm always wanting to learn more and, and keep myself informed and keep myself up to date. And so you just need to be on the lookout for it in order to, to, to keep yourself informed, just like with anything else, whether it be politics or terminology in, in any other subject matter, just be on the lookout for things and, and read it and, you know, or watch it or see it, whatever it happens to be. And that's just gonna expand your mind.

Speaker 1:

And if in doubt, ask a question when you have an opportunity, right.

Speaker 2:

That's right. That's always a good, good response.

Speaker 1:

VCA Valdivia. Thank you so very much for helping us get a better understanding of the L G B Q plus issues, terminology, and giving us some practical guidelines so that we can incorporate these into our practice. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's been so much fun. Thank you for including me.

Speaker 1:

We hope that this podcast has enriched your journey along this fascinating field of interpretation. If you're watching this on YouTube, please share your comments with us below. And if you're listening to us, don't forget to subscribe. So you don't miss our weekly episodes take care.