How to Negotiate Kink Like a Pro — Without Killing the Mood

Talking about kink doesn’t have to be awkward — in fact, when you do it right, the conversation itself becomes part of the turn-on.

In today’s episode of Talk Sex with Annette, we’re breaking down how to explore kink with a partner in a way that feels safe, connected, and genuinely exciting… long before anything physical happens.

I’m joined by Lisa Opel, pleasure coach at Joy Club, author, educator, and speaker who teaches people around the world how to navigate desire, boundaries, and curiosity with confidence. Together, we’re diving into why negotiation is one of the most misunderstood parts of kink, and how it can actually build trust, intimacy, and erotic tension.

You’ll learn:
 • How to talk about new desires without making things uncomfortable
 • What to say when you’re nervous to bring something up
 • How to explore fantasies in a judgment-free way
 • Why negotiation can become its own form of foreplay
• Tools for building trust, safety, and connection before you try something new
• How to start small, communicate clearly, and create a deeper, more playful dynamic

Whether you’re a beginner exploring kink for the first time or you’ve been curious for years, this episode gives you the exact language, mindset, and steps to talk about your desires in a way that brings you closer — not farther apart.

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Chapters

• 0:00 New Name, Same Unfiltered Space
• 3:03 Why Kink Negotiation Turns People Off
• 7:24 Prep Work: Desires, Language, Self-Consent
• 13:04 The Why Behind The Kink
• 19:23 Reverse-Engineering Safety And Aftercare
• 26:23 Live Role-Play: Asking For Restraint
• 36:00 Building Skills: Talk, Timing, Playfulness
• 43:05 Practical Starter Pack For Success
• 50:11 Resources, Workshops, And Final Takeaways

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 1:30

I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast formerly known as Locker Room Talk and Shots. The show has a new name, Talk Sex with Annette. But at its core, this is still your locker room. It's where we strip away shame, get curious, and speak the unspoken about sex, kink, dating, pleasure, and desire. Around here, nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chats, our most trusted friends, and of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest, and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. If you've been here from the beginning, thank you. And if you're new, welcome to my podcast where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Now, let's talk about sex. Cheers. Right, Low. Today's Talk Sex within it topic is how to negotiate kink like a pro and make it hot, not awkward. What if the sexiest part of kink isn't the flogger or the rope, but the conversation that happens before? Today we're diving into one of the most misunderstood but crucial parts of BDSM and kink negotiation. This isn't just about safety, it's about trust, desire, and building erotic tension long before you've ever even touched each other. And I have the perfect guest to be our guide on learning how to negotiate our kink and BDSM desires. My guest today is Lisa Opel, a pleasure coach at Joy Club, author of Erotic Literature Exploring Kink and BDSM, TED Talk Speaker, and educator who teaches people around the world how to negotiate scenes that are not just consensual, but electric. Together, we're going to break down exactly how to talk about your desires, limits, and boundaries in a way that makes negotiation itself part of the turn-on. But before we dive in, I want to remind you that I'm over on OnlyFans, and there I'm sharing my sex and intimacy how-tos, demos, and audio guided self-pleasure meditations. I'm also offering coaching. Basically, if you are not ready to dive into and commit to a full coaching regimen, I'm giving you the opportunity to ask me one-off questions that I will answer for you there. And you can find me there under my handle at Talk Sex withinet. You can find me on Substack doing a whole lot of the same minus the coaching and demos under the same handle at Talk Sex with the Net, or you can scroll down to the show notes and find all the links to wherever you want to find me. I'm looking forward to seeing you there. But for now, Lisa, will you take a moment to tell my listeners a little bit more about you?

SPEAKER_04: 4:24

Hello, Annette, and thank you so much for having me this evening. And the way you introduced me was already perfect. I think what was actually missing, though, was the more personal side, why I started doing it. And that feeds seamlessly into the topic this evening. Because me writing, I have to add realistic erotic literature. What do I mean by realistic? I mean I show all those perhaps awkward moments, all those things that are not normally shown in porn, in rom com, whether it's the orgasm difficulties, the menstruation sex, the postpartum mum, because these are the things we don't talk about and for which we're not given language. And I started writing when I realized I don't have the language to talk about my desires, my needs, my wants, my limits after becoming a mum. So my journey into this whole world derived from a place of utter desperation, which gave me maximum motivation to learn that vocabulary pretty fast. And nowadays, the word negotiation, it used to make me itch. Now I love it. It's an integral part of my relationship. I've been with my husband for 18 years, and we negotiate like pros over big and small kinks and needs and wants.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

I love that. I think something that people don't talk about a lot is that real sex, real eroticism, including the awkward moments and the things that are difficult are what actually make sex sexy. The realness and the rawness and the primal part of it is what makes it yummy. And a lot of that gets stripped away in mainstream media and porn, right? Because they do the cleaned up version of it. And that's why people often look for amateur porn or, you know, the unpolished is what really can turn them on. And so I could see how that would be the same in erotica. And this leads beautifully into how we can take those moments that pop up in our our sex life, especially when we're trying to talk to a new or a long-term partner about these desires for kinks, fetishes, or just new experiences and that we're afraid they're gonna think are weird or that are gonna turn them off or scare them away. I get a lot of requests from listeners asking me, like, how do I like talk to my partner about this? Or I'm afraid I'm gonna talk to my partner and they're gonna leave me or they're gonna shut me down. And then what if I don't ever get to experience this thing I want to experience? Well, today we are gonna map how you can start to have that conversation with your partner and how you can start having the kind of anything that you want to. So by the end of this podcast, you guys are gonna have all of you, and I know I have so many unanswered emails out there with this exact question. All of you who have reached out to me, and all those of you out there listening or watching on my YouTube channel by the end of this episode, you're gonna have your starter pack for the conversations to get you to a place of negotiating kinks, BDSM desires, or even just any different desire that you'd like to bring into your bedroom with your partner. So stay to the end. So you can take that step you've been wanting to stop to take. I'm ready. I'm ready just to dive into it. Absolutely. All right, cheers. Let's talk about getting kinky. Cheers. Cheers. At the time of this recording, we are in the middle of Kinktober, by the way. So this is a fun time to have the conversation. But Kinktober just leads into cuffing season. So this conversation is perfect because in cuffing season, we've hooked up and we're ready to do the kinky things through the cold season to get us through to the warm weather, right? So what I want to start this conversation with is why do you think so many people think of the negotiation part of kink as a buzzkill?

SPEAKER_04: 8:59

When I got the invitation from you to come in your podcast, the first thing I looked at was actually the word negotiating. And I took about a hundred steps back and I remembered how I felt when I didn't have the words for what I was feeling and what I wanted to say. And the word negotiation as such, it sounds so stiff, so hard. We know it from the business world, and it's all about contracts. And I think the first thing we need to be aware of is negotiating and negotiations, they're not contracts, they're conversations. So we're leading these conversations with curiosity, we're leading with playfulness. At the end of the day, we want to negotiate with our partner together in order to create something. And instead of seeing it as something where I need to exactly put down black and white what it is I want and what it is I need, and create boundaries and limits and all these things, to see it from a different angle. We want to create a safe environment. We want emotional trust. And this becomes our playground. The negotiation for me is nothing other than a safe space in which we get to explore who we are, what we want to do, and to fill this space with as much love and intimacy and connection as we possibly can. Now, where I notice all the time that people who ask these questions, where do I start? What do I do? What do I say? Give me one sentence, Lisa, and I'm going to use that sentence tonight with my partner, is again to take a quick step back, to consider our needs, first and foremost. And I see it a bit like self-prep or homework to say, if you go into a business meeting, you know what you're negotiating. So first and foremost, what is it I want? What is it I'm desiring? And I can add a tip straight away. I'm a very practical person, my approach. What helped me enormously was to create a yes, maybe, no list. So we throw the word kink in the room, and it is so big, it's like an elephant. So for me, it was about thinking what is it I'd really like to do? What is it I maybe want to do? And what do I not want to do? And even these things, they're still up for negotiation, play on words intended. But again, it's not about having this clear idea of this is exactly what I want to do, but to fill it playfully. When I have found out what I want to be doing, I need to find the language. Now, for me, it was erotic literature. It helped. And things like amateur porn, they can also help in finding vocabulary. And I think it's more than just saying, I want to, and to find a playful approach in thinking, do I want it to be intense? Do I want it to be poetic? And this inner mindset, it changes the way we express something. So to find my language, journaling was something that really helped me, something that I still laugh about because I imagine myself to be like a detective at a crime scene with a little dictaphone. I sent myself voice messages. Because one of my biggest struggles was it sounded so silly coming out of my mouth. So once I know what I'm interested in and what I'm intrigued about and what I would like to talk about, I try to say, and you, I mean, you can do it in front of the mirror in the morning or in any way, shape, or form, but to actually hear your voice is quite empowering. And so we become more embodied in our desires. And there's a plethora of different places you can find this vocabulary and, you know, just research, put the private browser history on, whatever. But there are so many ways to first and foremost find out what it is we want. And this is already such a big part of meeting our partner in the middle when we talk about this, but it helps us regulate. And what I actually neglected was I thought my partner was so open. And normally it's the other way around. So you approach your partner and you're perhaps expecting a no. I wasn't. And the idea of self-regulation, I hadn't considered at all. What if my partner says no? How do I regulate? So I think in retrospect, I would also add to this little homework to do before you even talk to your partner is to say, what if they say no off the cuff? Is there perhaps wiggle room? Is it, okay, would you like to go and think about it for two days and then we can reconvene and revisit this conversation? Or was it too much all at once? So to be prepared for this conversation also means I need to be able to take care of myself. The last part that for me was essential was self-consent. Telling myself I'm allowed to have desires, to have wants and needs. And, you know, that is that is shrouded in shame and taboo and cultural conditioning and girls, good girls don't ask. I mean, really good girls, they do ask and they get. But so that's that right. But there is there are so many cliches also that men always want. So all of that, I mean, that is just such a huge part of our sexual history. And for me, it was too. I came from such a Disney fairy tale kind of world, and I thought, ah, you know, is it okay if my if I ask my partner if he wants to be pegged? Is that crazy for me to say? And spoiler, it's not crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 15:09

There are several things you said that really do tie in to negotiation, right? Because the question is, how do I ask for and negotiate my sexual needs? And how do you ask for and negotiate something that number one, you don't feel the right to want? If you still feel ashamed and conflicted about your own desires, you're going to struggle to be effective at negotiating them. If you don't fully understand your desires in bed, it's going to be hard to negotiate them because around most desires, there are adjacent activities that you can negotiate for. So for instance, let's say spanking, what you brought up, that's very common. Us curlies at least once are like, hmm, what would end, you know, maybe your desire is, hey, I want to be turned over a knee, fully panties down, spanked with a butt plug in, and I want to call you daddy. Maybe that's the full desire. And your partner has never like talked about kink, seems pretty like vanilla, and you're like, oh my gosh, how do I get this fantasy to come true? Well, if you haven't mapped out your full fantasy, and if you don't feel like, okay, this is normal and a shame-free desire, then you go into the negotiation and you're like, hey, I want to be spanked, and I kind of want this thing. I'd like it to look like this. You're not using strong language, you're not self-assured, you're wishy-washy, and you're like, I kind of like to be every knee, and I don't know. I know this sounds weird, but could I call you daddy? And he's whoa, whoa. Now, if then if you don't really know your desire, then you can't be like, Hey, can we start with like just adding, can you slap my ass during sex? I want to see what that feels like. You can like downgrade, like, you don't want that full scene great, but could you just try slapping my ass during sex?

SPEAKER_04: 18:08

And what really helps sometimes is to reframe it and to tell your partner, because that energy that you just brought, I mean, it was palpable, right? It was like, I mean, anybody who doesn't go, oh yeah, tell me more. Like, how how do you imagine it to be? Where would you like to be? Like, let's talk about the scene. Where are you seated? Where am I seated? Is it night? Is it day? Let's talk about it. And then you get invested in this story, in this scene. And if a partner doesn't feel that fire, what often helps is saying why you want to do it. And that's where I notice, particularly for women, why do I want to be spanked? And this can be, and this is where my playfulness comes through. This can be something as simple as I have decision fatigue. I have been making decisions the whole day. I'm a mom of two. I have had to make a million decisions. Tonight, I just want to lie there, take it like a good girl, and you have full control. And you can do whatever you like with me. Preferably, it's my butt, I'm being spanked. But this is why I want it. Because it gives you the personal, the emotional side of it again, which is more comprehensible in a relationship where love and intimacy and understanding is the foundation.

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

I just think the way you say I just want to lie there like a good girl is is going to be a winning line in almost any situation. I just want to lie there like a good girl for you. Like I'm like and you can do that.

SPEAKER_04: 19:49

Oh, I'm I'm a switch. So I can be good, but I can also be very bad. But that's the magic in it. I I believe this why, this fire, the essence, the why do I want to do it? Why do I want I'm bisexual? So why do I want to peg you? Because I want to be inside you. I want to be as close as possible. I want your face in my face. I want to be in you fully, and I want to hear you moan while we are chest to chest. This is the why, and it becomes a more emotional response. And that is so much easier to talk about than I want my hand to touch your bum.

SPEAKER_00: 20:34

I love the idea of really bringing that emotional part and the sexy emotional part. It's because what you're taught telling them is the desire behind the kink. Here's the desire, and desire is sexy and it's erotic. And partners want that sexy and want that erotic, and it's going to be much more appeal. You know, desire and eroticism bring fear down a little bit. So maybe it's a little scary to think about someone in your butt. Understandable, understandable, but then when it's expressed in an erotic way, it's a little less scary and a little bit more sexy. And you're sort of bring down the fear, bring up the turn on, bring down the fear, bring up the turn on, right?

SPEAKER_04: 21:26

That's it. And at the end of the day, no matter what it is, I mean, it completely always depends on where are you in your relationship, how's your communication in general. And I know for many people, really having a voice, having a sexual voice is something that I've been spending a lot of time researching because, like we said at the beginning, we're not taught how to speak in erotic, are we? I write letters. Now, this is the romantic in me speaking, not the one who wants to peg someone. For many people, if if something feels too big, like you just said, sort of bringing the fear level down, I also love the idea of writing a letter. I once joked with a colleague, she said, yeah, yeah, do you like a PowerPoint presentation? Go all in. Send your partner a PowerPoint presentation about, you know, facts, statistics, why you want to do it, your five top motivations for doing it. When we bring that playfulness in, it stops being, I want to stick a dildo up your bum hole. And it starts being this is the connection I'm craving for these reasons. And I mean, playfulness in general is underrated in our sexuality, but also in kink, there is so much potential in kink and BDSM to use humor to diffuse certain situations. And by humor, I'm not saying let's laugh about our boundaries and our safe words, but it gives us a different approach in ensuring we feel safe, because only when we feel safe can we then truly play. I like to call it reverse engineering safety. So we kind of start basically with aftercare. So instead of saying, I want to spank your bum if if we go with that example, maybe we're saying, you know, when we're finished, whatever it might be, let's just leave the act as it is. We don't know what the act is yet. We don't know the scene. We're gonna concentrate on the edges, on on making it safe, like a sandwich. So we're gonna start with how we are gonna do it? Would you like me to ease you in with words? Perhaps role play could be an idea. Maybe we wanna go a traditional school girl teacher scenario or the office scenario. And then we encapsule the act that we've not spoken about yet with the aftercare. And I'm a big fan of using love languages, not in a sense of we all have one, but what is it you need to soothe your nervous system after? So for me, for example, I love words. I'm more of a go shower than stay lying in bed. I go shower, we have a drink, a snack, and we talk about it. We're kind of framing whatever it is that might happen with safety. And that makes talking about that scary thing a little bit easier as well. And the aftercare in particular, I put such a focus on because for me, aftercare is foreplay. Because that's when we recalibrate, like in that conversation of I really enjoyed it when you were inside me and you looked into my eyes and you told me how much it meant to you, or all these kinds, they're foreplay. It's already getting excited for the next game. So perhaps a different way to look at it with a partner is to create that safety net first and then leap into it with a parachute for the sake of a better example right now.

SPEAKER_00: 25:09

I love that you say that aftercare is foreplay for the next time. I I have a whole how-to on aftercare, folks. I will tag that below. But it is those conversations are setting the stage for the next time you're together. I want to do something I've never done before. I want to invite you to ask consent for, if you will. I think something fun we could do for listeners is you and I could role-play negotiating a kinker desire. We can pretend like we're partners and there is a kink that you want to negotiate with me, and you can demonstrate in this conversation how it would be negotiated. Are you are you down?

SPEAKER_03: 26:57

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 26:59

All right, uh, don't even tell me what which kink. I want you to surprise me with what you're gonna ask me for. Okay. Surprise me.

SPEAKER_04: 27:10

Yeah. And I think it it deserves a little extra mention to say, because this is where the performance-related aspect always comes in, that people are now expecting the perfect conversation. And I think that's the most important bit because there is no perfect negotiation. And so I say to everyone listening, enjoy because it it might be hilariously wonky and who knows what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00: 27:38

Okay, wait, first of all, are we long-term partners or are we new lovers?

SPEAKER_04: 27:43

Maybe we're lovers.

SPEAKER_00: 27:46

Brand new lovers. Okay, am I a penis owner or am I just who I am?

SPEAKER_01: 27:51

Who would you like?

SPEAKER_00: 27:52

Like a man.

SPEAKER_01: 27:53

Would you like to?

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

Who would I? I think I kind of want to be a guy.

SPEAKER_04: 27:58

Can I be a guy for this conversation? Okay. Yes. I often wish I had a penis, so it's very suitable. I just want to know what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00: 28:06

Yeah, I just want to know what it feels like just once to put my penis inside of all the like so bad. In uh inside of vagina, not of all the sorry, folks. I want I want to enter a woman with a real penis. God, I think it would feel real good.

SPEAKER_04: 28:22

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. I my mind's already wandering off right now. I need to think of something that us lovers are gonna do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:33

Let me think. And then where are we having this conversation? It depends on I think we are I think we're in a no, we're not in a cafe.

SPEAKER_04: 28:52

I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I love to do because it adds the extra level of taboo for me. For everybody listening, you know, you can do that kind of thing. It already starts everything as very, very sexy. I think maybe we've actually just had sex. So intimacy is possibly at a very high level. We feel trust, we feel connected, we're we're really there. And yeah, and I feel safe enough to open up to you.

SPEAKER_00: 29:19

This is fascinating. This is a great tip, guys. When you're already connected, you've just had orgasms, your the bonding hormones are already like in full force. Adrenaline, everything's kind of sounding yummy. That's a good time. All right, I like it. Okay, I like it. Let's go.

SPEAKER_04: 29:36

I'm I'm not gonna give you a name, we're just gonna roll with it. Let's roll with it. Okay. Listen, there's something I've been thinking about. And I'd love for you to hear me out. And it's up to you whether you want to answer straight away. Maybe you don't. That's also totally fine. If we could possibly talk about, you know, when you'd like to get back to me, that would make me feel safe and it wouldn't leave me wondering or tense. I'd like to talk to you about something I have imagined trying in the bedroom. How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00: 30:17

All right, all right. I'm interested.

SPEAKER_04: 30:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 30:22

Nervous.

SPEAKER_04: 30:23

All right, okay, don't be nervous. Don't be nervous. It's quite playful and it's something I've never done before. I have never been handcuffed before and blindfolded, and then had somebody have their way with me. And the reason I'm interested in doing this is because I'm normally quite active in the bedroom and I really trust you, and I feel like I would be able to let go, feel safe, and that we could have quite an intimate and touching time together. And I'm completely open as to what have your way means, and I'd love to talk to you about whether that's toys or maybe something different or sex or foreplay. But I really like the idea of being restrained and entirely at your mercy.

SPEAKER_00: 31:28

Okay, all right. Yeah, so yeah, I guess I want to talk more about what have my way means. Like you said it's up to me, but what is what's your fantasy about this? Because I'm not clear on that.

SPEAKER_04: 31:48

I that's great. Thank you. And thank you for being open and listening. I guess I would I love words, so I would love for you to build anticipation because I'm blindfolded, I don't really know what's going on yet. And like I said, maybe it is sex and playing and oral and all the things we've been doing until now, but in a different space, so that I don't really know what's going on. And I'd love perhaps if you could lead with words so that you're teasing me. And maybe because I don't know what's happening, it would feel different for me.

SPEAKER_00: 32:29

So you want me to say what I'm gonna do? What does teasing mean?

SPEAKER_04: 32:37

Because maybe we can even yeah, maybe we can even build up to it before. Maybe we could roleplay into it. So maybe there's something that happens before, so that we get in the mood. Maybe you could be more dominant and I would feed into that. And perhaps it would mean me being on my knees or something happening. You like that?

SPEAKER_00: 33:05

I like that. I like that.

SPEAKER_04: 33:06

Okay, okay. Well, that's good. We've found found something in common. I like that very much. Maybe you tell me to get on my knees too.

SPEAKER_00: 33:15

I could do that, I absolutely could do that. So I like that. I like that. I love the idea of playing. With restraint and giving it a try. I've done it twice before. So you have? Who opened that? I think uh where I s might need more direction is I'm not great at necessarily role play or sex talk. Maybe like the around the language. Like I sometimes feel awkward. So they're like maybe if we could figure out what you want there, so I don't make it so it doesn't feel awkward in the moment.

SPEAKER_04: 33:58

So I did my homework a little bit, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't look into these things and research a little bit. And I found a couple of pornos that have great language. Perhaps we could watch them together. Done.

SPEAKER_00: 34:19

We're there. You are a tied up. I am watching porn. I don't know, feeding you popcorn or or or strawberries. Well, you're restrained and I'm watching your porn. Is that what you want me to say? Done.

SPEAKER_04: 34:35

You know, what I was thinking actually was perhaps we should have done it the other way around. Because I I'm not always not sure whether it's the women that have all the fantasies and desires or whether it's the men and who meets who in the middle. But I guess the same can apply in any direction. I think the way I did it was very representative of any gender in which direction it should go. And I guess if we were to continue the conversation, I'd also include in the aftercare perhaps something like, you know, I'm a bit worried about how my wrists will feel. I'm worried about the effect it might have on my body, because another thing, particularly in King Speedy SM, that we need to be aware of is, and I'm not going to dive into it too far because I'm not a specialist in that area, but trauma responses. So that if we are doing things that cross boundaries, of course, in the safe frame of safe words, it still might have an effect. And so aftercare is essential physically, verbally, emotionally, so that it's not just the glass of water and a blanket. Maybe sometimes it's it's talking about whatever's come up as well. So a lot of the emotions that come up. And if it has been restraints, maybe there's something there that you want to talk about and say to your partner, listen, when you put them on, I felt this and this, and it made me a little uncomfortable. Maybe next time we can, and you don't need to make a therapist session out of it, but to be aware that in our aftercare conversations, those tiny little elements, they also help recalibrate then for the next session. That's how we gain our language and that's how we evolve in our conversations also as a couple.

SPEAKER_00: 36:18

And how the kink evolves, right? So let's say you've negotiated a restraint, being restrained at first. And and what you it was kind of a in my life, what you negotiated there was kind of soft kink, like I'd like to absolutely know how hard to go. Could have been harder. Yeah, sure. But let's say your ultimate desire maybe is bigger. Maybe you're like, okay, this is like I'd like to start with you restraining, and but deep down you're like, eventually I want X, Y, and Z, and it's more intense. This is a great way to start towards that. Hey, let's just start with some restraining and get that down and normalize that in our relationship so that whipping out the ham cut handcuffs is like, well, we do that every other week for fun, right? And then from there in these aftercare conversations, you can recalibrate and say, Hey, how would you feel about next time including this thing? And then building on it, almost set the foundation and then start building up with you know, adding on. Next thing you know, you've got handcuffs hanging from the ceiling and floggers in your cloud.

SPEAKER_03: 37:32

You got wax play, you got all sorts of full gags. Yeah, the full shebang.

SPEAKER_00: 37:40

I think what's interesting in that role play for me is I realized something. So we're having the conversation. And for me, believe it or not, and I've mentioned this in this podcast before, I talk about sex for a living, but when I'm with a partner, where I struggle with most is like talking about sex, either durings, the dirty talk, role play. I can seize up like that, and I'm getting better and better at it, but it's difficult for me. And so as you brought in, I'd like you to tease me with talk, I was like, oh, yeah, let's talk about that. But then you hooked me with I could be down on my knees, and I'm like, all right, let's go. Now I can figure out the rest. You just gave me, you just hooked me with something that I desire.

SPEAKER_04: 38:27

Yeah, no, because that's why that yes, maybe no list is so crucial. And on that point, that's also really interesting when you mentioned about the different stages of the relationship. Obviously, yes, we did a more soft thing because I thought we're lovers. Maybe that's then in that scenario, more practical. How the language evolves the further down the line you get. You can also be playful in your language outside of the bedroom. I always find it really good to learn that language fully clothed. A tip that I have in my course, The Joy Club, that came out this year about spicing up your long-term relationship. It's exactly that. It's a hat. You write down fantasies, each of you, and it can be a fantasy you want to have. It can be anything, super random, super weird as well. And you check them in the hat, and instead of date night in a traditional sense, you pick these fantasies out of the hat and you talk about them hypothetically. Now, neither of you know whether that's the fantasy you want to have, but you end up having these conversations with words neither of you really have. But it becomes funny, it becomes fun, it becomes lighthearted, and that helps you then progress into something more intense because then it's exactly what you just said. If I then say, let's talk about what's a good example, something a little bit more down the line. Pegging. For a lot of heterosexual couples, that comes much, much later. And pegging is something where there will be a lot of hesitation often from the male side, or not, but let's assume it's that. And if you pull that fantasy out of the hat, you notice quite quickly what language you're presenting. And then it's interesting. Do I question my language? If I've grown up, I don't, I grew up in a Catholic country. For me, something like that, even though I'm very open, at first will be like, oh, can't do that though, can you? Like, no, no, no, no, no. And to find those words with each other and to meet in the middle and find compromises, and it might not be pegging at first, it might literally just be anal play. Becomes magical. And you've got something physical in your hand, and you don't have to have this ominous fantasy between you to actually have a conversation about it. So there are so many different ways in, depending on where you are in your relationship, but to keep it light and playful is essential.

SPEAKER_00: 41:08

Yeah, for sure. Being able to laugh at the thing, and even if it's nervous laughter at first, right? And then to slowly be able to get into the language and turn it from joking to something more serious, which is usually what happens, right? After the nervous laughter gets out of the way and you start to get a handle on it, and it's already out in the open between the two of you.

SPEAKER_04: 41:34

Then you know, by the time I'm on my knees, things get more intense most of the time.

SPEAKER_00: 41:40

So you could start by asking well on your knees, and that might go very well. I'm just saying something I was thinking in this conversation. We've covered a lot, but putting it in a package, thinking about the timing, right, and the location. And it can look like different things. It can't look like you're at a coffee shop in a corner. Maybe especially if you know that the two of you are kind of voyeuristic and you know having little sex to come. Like that could be a hot time to bring up something, something new, a new kink or something dirty, if you will. I air quoted that from my listeners because you know me. I don't think of a lot as dirty, or it can be during aftercare when your bodies are already sort of lit up, or it can be during foreplay as you're getting aroused and like talking again when you already have that bonding hormone like bringing you together. But you definitely don't want to drop it cold on someone. They walk in from work and you're like, Hey, I'd like to peg your ass tonight. How'd you feel about that? That's funny. Or I'd like to have a male, male, female threesome. How do you feel about that, honey?

SPEAKER_04: 43:59

Yeah. And there's, I mean, I'm all for open, honest communication. And yes, 100% with you. Time and place is essential and mood of your partner. I'm also a fan of yeah, more cheeky approaches. I'll throw two more things in the pot if none of those worked for anybody. One thing I love to do with my husband is to text each other. So at first, it might not be I want an FFM or MMF or however, but it might be starting the conversation because via text, I can really be selective. Sometimes it backfires, but I can be very selective about what I'm saying. And I give my partner the opportunity to reflect and not instantly react. So I love that as well. And like I said, you know, or you can write a letter and express what's on your mind. That's more of an emotional approach, really. So text messages are really good to go for. Or another favorite of mine is oh my god, darling. So I was with my friend Susan today, and she told me that her husband, what do you think of that? That's a way to still keep your fantasy locked up in your heart and your brain for a moment, but to get some sort of feeling or inkling. Now, if your partner reacts with, oh, well, that's interesting, well, then it doesn't matter the time or the place. And sometimes the kids are running around or the dogs just pooped in the kitchen, but then your partner will want to have that conversation all of a sudden, and then you are all there. So for me, those are two more approaches that sort of take the flame a little lower and give you a better opportunity to gauge your partner's reaction.

SPEAKER_00: 45:45

Oh my God, I fucking love that. Husband did it and loved it. What a man! How do you feel about it? I like the idea of kind of seeding, seeding fantasies, like saying, Oh, I was listening to this podcast the other day, and they covered this thing that I'd never heard of before. And even if your partner's that's fucking weird, you can be like, wait a second, why are you being judgmental about that? That was kind of weird to you, but is it like I you can like, and then it's not personal because if they say that's weird when it's something it's your desire, and you're saying, I want to do this thing, and they have that reaction, then it becomes personal. But if you're like, I heard about this thing, and they react that way to something you heard about somewhere else, it doesn't feel as personal. And it gives you the opportunity to not challenge their feelings, but to say, hey, maybe think about why you feel that way, because I actually think it's interesting, right? Then you start to enter a conversation and it's not it's not so personal, it doesn't feel like someone's saying something about you, right?

SPEAKER_04: 47:00

Absolutely, absolutely. And then you have to Google it just to show your partner. If it's the octopus fantasy, my God, Google it. Yeah. Yeah, there are there are lots of different ways in wow, that came out just the way I intended it to. Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 47:19

You could say, okay, you feel judgmental about it, but I'm gonna handcuff you and turn on some porn with this fantasy, and we'll watch it together and then tell me what you think.

SPEAKER_04: 47:30

Yeah. And I there there's also so much magic because understanding your partner, if it's not your lover and you've only just met and you're you're going for something where you know it might blow their mind and you're using this approach. But if you know your partner, then you'll also know how they might want it presented. And in the way that this colleague of mine joked about the PowerPoint presentation, if we're talking alien role play, you'll have your motivations on that PowerPoint presentation. But if your partner's more emotional, you might say, I watched Gillian Anderson in The X-Files my entire childhood, and I really enjoyed the way the two of them kind of played and the alien app it's a completely different in. It's an emotional in. And, you know, this bleeds into how you then negotiate your scene or what you're playing, because using metaphors, it sets a tone. I mean, I'm an author, so this is my daily business. Using metaphors like the weather. So with the weather, I mean like when we enter this game, or if we if we want to do this scene, are we thinking it's more like a storm, a hurricane, it's intense, or are we going with a light breeze and we we kind of evolve and we move homogeneously? What kind of scene are we entering into? Or I mean, I love using food. Are we going for something really spicy, or is it going to be more bitter? Or all these kinds of tastes and flavors and ideas and scenes, they change the way we speak about it. They change the way we approach our partner. And the better we know each other, the easier we can catch them. You know, for me, when I said on my knees, your reaction showed me, okay, I can work with that, right? You know, I can exactly gauge what the weather needs to be like with you on most days. You know, if you're a switch, that changes, but I can work with that. And it sounds sneaky, but it's an easier way to have a conversation if you know your partner will definitely jump on board if you present it in a certain way.

SPEAKER_00: 49:44

Right, right. Side note, Jillian Anderson. Do you have the same crush I have?

SPEAKER_04: 49:52

Oh my god. Stop. Which which I mean, which woman doesn't? Honestly, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 50:03

She just keep getting better.

SPEAKER_04: 50:05

She just gets better. That's it.

SPEAKER_00: 50:08

Just gets better. What supplement is this woman taking? And I'm like, I fall more deeply in love with her every time I stalk her on Instagram.

SPEAKER_04: 50:20

Yeah. See, but you know, that would be your why. That would be like, Annette, I want to be Gillian Anderson for you. Yes. How can we meet in the middle? What is it I need to be doing? I want to fulfill that dream for you. You know, it's also so much about compromise as well, because I love my partner and I want them to be happy. And if that means finding a way to fulfill their fantasy, then I want to talk about it. I always give the example, you know, one of us wants to have Thai, the other one wants to have Indian. Well, let's compromise. Maybe we say today we do Thai, next week we do Indian, if we have lots of money, because takeaway is really expensive nowadays. Or we say, why do we get both? And then I'll try some of yours and you can try some of mine. And like finding, again, it's a conversation, it's not a contract. And we want to feel safe and we want to feel trust. And all of that just leads into all the safe words. And it's actually funny because I'm talking about food now. We have a let me take it back a second. Daily life. We spoke about having this language in the bedroom, but also outside of the bedroom. And negotiating kinks also means negotiating our our traffic light system, we are green, yellow, red in our game, in our play, and having a safe word. And when people choose their safe words, sometimes it's just really random. I like to do things that you can use in daily life. So that might be basil or parsley. And what we then do is we carry it into every day. So we're with we're in the supermarket, or it doesn't even need to be the supermarket. We can be with friends and we'll say, hmm, darling, I really fancy some basil today. And suddenly we've moved the whole conversation out of the bedroom, and we again feel more enticed to talk about it out in the open. I don't know how I got there just now, but Gillian Anderson.

SPEAKER_00: 52:25

It evolved into food. It started with how you could be my Gillian Anderson. That's what that's how it started. I like the idea of creating words around intimacy that you can then throw out in a sexy way. And when you're around other people too.

SPEAKER_04: 52:39

So I might call you Scully, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 52:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 52:42

That might be that might be the daily, daily routine. Well you can combine all of these elements because I can then send you a voice message later on. I can say, I'm gonna be sending you a voice message later on, Scully. We'll we'll talk. And you can combine all these elements and it builds up that anticipation at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00: 53:02

Right. And that is how negotiation becomes hot. It becomes the foreplay for future sex, right? So let's put this in a little package. I would like you to put this in a little package for my listeners who have been like listening and getting ideas and seeing our little role play, but now they're like, okay, well, but where do I start when I go home tonight or this afternoon or whatever? Give them a little package of the things to consider and how to set themselves up for success in their conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 53:39

First of all, know that there's no right way to do it. There's just your way. And your desires are valid and your needs are great the way they are. Whatever it is that's bubbling up inside you, be sure that you've done your research, done your homework. You're not blurting out with one sentence and you don't know what to say anymore. I like to say, have the five W's at hand, which is who, what, where, when, why. And you can write it down if you like. I'm a big fan of just jotting down a couple of notes before you go into a conversation like that. Your motivation. I love to connect beforehand. So you can write something down like, I really value our connection. I feel so much trust toward you and with you. I feel safe with you. And only then do we enter the conversation. When you enter the conversation, be open, make sure time and place, like we said before, are appropriate. And find a way that's not too much. Don't load too much on your partner at once. Give a little glimpse into your world, what you've been thinking. Try and make it picturesque. I always say take your partner by the hand and lead them through what's been going through your brain. Because you're more likely to use descriptive words, you're more likely to paint them a picture that feels like you because it is you. And then be patient. Be patient. Give your partner space. A lot of things might come up. It might be shame, it might be cultural conditioning, it might be resistance, there might be quite a lot of negative emotions. If they're positive emotions, then this, you know, quick tip guide stops right here. But if there are negative emotions, try to self-regulate, still set a time when you'd like to reconvene and speak about it. Because I can tell you, if you don't, it will keep bubbling inside you until it bursts, and then you will start feeling resent. And no relationship has ever won with a huge amount of resent. So hold your space, but give them time. And if you then find your way together, and this is the beautiful part where it continues, start writing a script. Start asking questions. Start you can even do it fully clothed, playing out what you'd like to do. When we're clothed, we're less vulnerable. So just start playing it out. You can be in the kitchen during broad daylight, what you'd like to do, and use language. And if you're struggling to find words, like we said before, you know, you can find it in diverse media, or try and just say out loud your senses. I feel hesitation. I sense resistance in my body, or, and this is where it gets nice and playful, I can smell your aftershave. That makes me feel secure again. I can feel your body on mine, makes me feel safe again. So that you're always staying with you in any kind of situation, even if you're just role-playing it out loud. And last but not least, if you've managed to do all of these things, don't forget that's not how it's then gonna go every single time. So talk about it. Talk about what you liked, what you perhaps didn't like. Have a brainstorm. What could you imagine doing the next time? And it evolves, it changes, and be aware of that and invite that kind of playfulness into your relationship, and you can only win from there.

SPEAKER_00: 57:30

All right, guys, there you got it. You've got you are set up for success. We have talked you through the different parts. We have role-played, I thought very successfully and realistically. And now you've got it all in a little go bag. So go go forth and get your kinks and fantasies fulfilled. That's what I'm wishing for you. And what I would like now is for you to take a moment to tell my listeners where they can find you also, where they can read your erotica. I'm I'm going to go read some erotica. I'm very curious now. But where they can find all of the things you do and get in touch with you.

SPEAKER_04: 58:15

So my webpage is pleasepinchmehard.com. Consensually always, first and foremost. And there I have a whole potpourri of blog posts, but you can also already read some of my short stories for free. There are lots of articles all about pleasure and kinks and also more holistic things about mental health and things that feed into our sexuality and relationships. You can buy my book. It's called Give It to Me, short, naughty, short, naughty stories. And you can buy that on Amazon. And you can also listen to it read by me on all podcast platforms. So if you prefer me in your ears, then I can centrally say yes. And then there's also my second practical book, which is your complete sexuality workbook that has, oh my goodness, over 100 exercises. It's very project manager, and it's everything from our mind, our body, our sexual voice relationships. It's got lots of inspiration about kinks. It's also got how to talk about kinks, and it's for solo and partnered use. That's available in German and English. And on top of that, obviously, there's my Instagram where I share lots of random, filthy stuff, which is also please pinch me hard. And there's my podcast, which is deep and dirty. That's bilingual. And it's a whole mix, all sorts of experts, Shibari, Cervix, Femdom. I've had porn performers. It's a bit of everything. And I absolutely love it. And of course, on Joy Club. So for anybody who does want to do a workshop with me, I have one coming up in November. So check out Joy Club. I always find it's also a really good place to learn language, exactly what we've been speaking about. Because there you have so many people who are already in the scene who you can talk to. And yeah, my workshops there are also in English. So you can catch me there and also ask questions. I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:27

There you go, guys. You're not going to get bored anytime soon. There's plenty of Lisa to go around. How exciting. So make sure to go and check her out. Do some reading. It's going to be good for you. Do some listening. It's going to be better for you. And thank you so much for joining me for this conversation and for being willing to role-play with me a little bit. I think that this is going to be very useful to all of my listeners who have reached out often with this specific question and problem. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:59

Thank you so much. And just don't forget, if it sounds silly, that's fine. Laugh about it. I do it on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:08

Me too.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:09

Thank you, Annette.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:10

Thank you. And to my listeners, until next time. I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:15

Cheers. Thank you.