Is He A Sex Addict : Or Does He Just Want It More Than You?

Is he a sex addict — or does he just want it more than you? The term gets thrown around constantly, but most people have no idea what it actually means. In this episode, I sit down with marriage and family therapist Kate Logan — who specializes in compulsive sexual behavior at the Center for Healthy Sex in Los Angeles — to finally draw the line between high libido, kink, and genuine sexual compulsivity.

We get into:

• What separates a sex addict from someone who just really loves sex
• Why infidelity doesn't equal addiction — and why that label can do real damage
• How shame and secrecy fuel compulsive sexual patterns
• The kink vs. addiction confusion that's quietly destroying relationships
• What's actually underneath sex addiction (it's not what you think)
• What treatment looks like — and why the goal is never abstinence

If you've ever wondered whether your own patterns — or your partner's — cross a line, this episode gives you the framework to actually figure it out.

Find Kate Here: Kate Logan, AMFT - CENTER FOR HEALTHY SEX

📩Sign Up for My Newsletter: https://she-explores-life.kit.com/e9760c390c

🎧 Subscribe for weekly sex and intimacy how-tos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talksexwithannette

Get your subscription for my After Hours audio-guided pleasure/intimate experience here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1692988/subscribe

Subscribe to my OF: https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/

Join in my 365 Days of Orgasms Journey Here: https://talksexwithannette.com/365-days-of-orgasms/

Use Code EXPLORES15 at Womanizer.com for 15% off!

15% Off With my Code Annette15 at myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti

 The viral lemon-shaped toy everyone’s talking about — get 25% off with code ANNETTE25 at https://talksexwithannette.com/go/sp/hello-nancy-lem 🍋 

Get 15% Off The Life Saving, Erection Enhancing Tech Cockring By Firmtech with my code ANNETTE15 at: https://myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti

Transcript

New Name, Same Locker Room

SPEAKER_00 0:54

I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast formerly known as Locker Room Talk and Chops. The show has a new name, Talk Sex with Annette. But at its core, this is still your locker room. It's where we strip away shame, get curious, and speak the unspoken about sex, pink dating, pleasure, and desire. Around here, nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chat, our most trusted friends, and of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest, and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. Welcome to my podcast where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Let's talk about sex. Cheers. Today's topic is sex addiction. Is it real and what you need to know? You've heard me talk a lot about sex as a source of power, pleasure, and play. But what happens when sex starts to feel compulsive, out of control, or not fun anymore? Today's episode is about a side of sex we don't talk about enough: compulsive sexual behavior and what's often labeled as sex addiction. And I brought in the perfect guest to help us unravel it all. Kate Logan is a marriage and family therapist associate who works with clients who are navigating compulsive sexual behaviors, identity development, and relationship challenges. Kate brings a sex-positive, affirming, deeply human approach to some of the hardest conversations around sex and healing. If you've ever questioned your own patterns or been with someone whose sexual behavior felt off, overwhelming, or disconnected, this is an episode you need it to tune into. But before we dive in, I want to remind you guys that I'm over on OnlyFans. And that is where I am sharing my intimacy and sex how-tos and demonstrations, along with audio guided self-pleasure meditations, and so much more to help you on your own intimate journey. You can also find me on Substack. You just scroll down, you're going to find links to where you can find me everywhere. And of course, my handle is at TalkSex with Annette. But let's get into it. Kate, can you take a moment to tell my listeners a little bit more about you? Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I'm Kate Logan, Associate Marriage and Family Therapist. And I work with two different practices in Los Angeles, Gender Wellness of Los Angeles and the Center for Healthy Sex. And as you said, I specialize in working with folks, well, in sex therapy in general, but also clients who are dealing with what we might call sex addiction or compulsive sexual behavior. Basically, people that are have have an imbalanced relationship with sex one way or another, and that's causing problems in their life.

Diagnosis Debate And The DSM

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Right. So I think that it's a term that gets thrown out there a lot. I don't think people really understand what it means. So this is a great, honestly, this is a great episode for anybody. It's going to help you understand your own sexuality. Certainly if you've had times or you end up in a relationship with someone questioning where they are at with sex. Do they want, if they want it more than you, what does that mean? We're going to clear up a lot of that for you today. I want you to stay to the end because, of course, as always, we'll make sure that you leave this episode with a power pack of information to help you in your own intimacy journey starting today. So let's let's do it. Let's dive in. Let's get ready to talk about sex addiction. That's right. Kind of a cheers. Cheers. We throw the term sex addict around a lot. But what does it actually mean? And is it even a real diagnosis?

High Libido Vs Compulsion

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, great question. So you're right. I think the word sex addiction or sex addict does get thrown around a lot, and probably a lot of times in contexts where it's not really totally accurate. So to start off is sex addiction is not a diagnosis that's in the DSM, which is kind of the Bible of diagnoses that mental health professionals can give that kind of just covers diagnoses that are medically recognized by a lot of different organizations, by insurance, et cetera. For context, there are also diagnoses or sort of patterns we might recognize that most people do see are issues that are also not in the DSM. So, for example, like a video game addiction or shopping addiction, things like that, like even the terms like sociopath and psychopath, none of these are in the DSM. So that doesn't necessarily mean that there's not validity to some of these diagnoses just because they're not in the diagnostic and statistic manual. And that does get reviewed and changed and does change over the years as we get more research in. So it very well these might be included as sex addiction, could end up being included as a diagnosis in future additions, but currently it's not. And so I would say sex addiction isn't just liking sex a lot or having a lot of sex or wanting to have a lot of sex in the same way that if you really liked video games or shopping, just doing those things a lot is not enough for us to call it an actual addiction or even a problem.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I'd like to talk about what is the difference between a high libido and compulsive sexual behavior.

Libido Mismatch And Relationship Conflict

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah. Number one thing I'm always looking for with clients who think they might have a problem is is this causing problems in your life and your relationships? And so if someone is telling me one, okay, like this is something really common is they might be cheating on or breaking the boundaries within their own relationship in order to get these, we could call it getting a sexual need met or just whatever, it doesn't mean everyone who's cheating is a sex addict. It's certainly not true. People cheat for any number of reasons. But that's a common one that I see. If there's other issues, like it's preventing them from fulfilling responsibilities that they have to work, to family, personal life. If there's just other negative effects that are happening, it's like getting STIs like frequently and not being very responsible around their sexual health. That's just one area that I'm looking for. Okay, is your sexual behavior like causing problems in your life that you really recognize as like things that you don't want, that these are consequences that you that are not acceptable to you? Then there's also the, okay, is this something that you've noticed? Okay, there's some consequences that I really don't like. This is harming my life or my relationships and my work, et cetera. And you've tried to stop or you've tried to kind of rebalance things and find that you just can't. That's another big thing that kind of says, okay, maybe there's more of an addiction here. The same way that one person might have a glass of wine or so with dinner at night or be able to go out and have a couple of drinks with friends, but not go so overboard every time that they're like really hungover, they're harming their health, or they're doing things that are really risky. That's kind of a an in a way we can apply some of that same logic to sex addiction is all right, is this something that you're able to control when you need to? Or is it something that you feel like you've tried to stop, you've tried to rein, and there's negative consequences and you can't seem to get it under control? And then a third thing I always look for to is, and it sounds silly, but it's actually can be very relevant to people who are dealing with addiction, is do you even like what you're doing? Do you getting pleasure out of it? Do you want to be having sex as often as you are with as many people or even like compulsively masturbating and watching porn? Like, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with porn. I don't think there's certainly masturbating is a healthy thing. But like anything that there can be a point where, okay, if someone's spending a lot of time on seeking sex partners, on watching porn or masturbation, to the point where they're like, why am I even doing this? I don't even like this anymore, but I feel like I have to. Or if they're not getting, if they're not doing that, they feel almost like withdrawal symptoms. They're feeling really bad or depressed or anxious. That's when you're like, okay, something, this is not just liking sex a lot, right? This is not just a high libido. There's something else going on here where they're using sex or masturbation to regulate their emotions, and there's something deeper going on there. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I've heard this term brought up oftentimes in relationships where there's an imbalance in sexual interest and libido. Oftentimes it's the woman accusing, and this isn't heteronormative relationships primarily. I feel like in my experience in the queer community, there's a little less concern around, you know, people and and sex positivity and wanting to have sex. But oftentimes in heterosexual relationships where there's an imbalance in sexual interest, women to their part male partners, women will oftentimes accuse their male partners of having a sexual addiction because they'll catch them watching porn or having porn or masturbating to get a need met that they have that the woman maybe doesn't want to fulfill. They don't want to have sex as much. And I've heard men, of course, say, Maybe I do have a problem. Maybe is there something wrong with me? Because I want more sex. I want it every day. How do you help couples like that, or even just the guy in the situation know whether or not he's actually got a problem or if it's actually a problem within the relationship where needs just aren't getting met? And that has to become a discussion.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, yeah. Something like distinguishing between just sort of differences of sex drives or libidos, and okay, was somebody have something where it is more of a compulsivity or like addiction type of an issue? There's a lot of different things that I would probably ask a couple or an individual to try to sort of figure out what's going on here. One thing that I I often ask whether or not I think that there could be sex addiction is like, what is the point? Why do you want to have sex with each other? And that sounds like a silly question to most people. But a lot of times when folks think about it, they're like, well, okay, yeah, like why do I want to have sex with my partner? Is it it's usually several reasons, but sometimes we I find that there's sort of this, oh, well, we're supposed to be having a lot of sex. That's the thing that we're supposed to do if we're like in a good relationship, or that this my partner is supposed to desire me this much. So first thing I do is try to pick apart, okay, what's the what are your values around sex and why do you even want to be having it? Let's see where what's going on with that. Then if there's like really just a one person, it's just more horny more often than the other, which is true. And honestly, most relationships don't have libidos that perfectly align, especially over time, if there's kids and stress and life. And in those cases, if I'm trying to see if there's one person or another who might be more of having a sex addiction issue, you know, I usually one able screens, okay, is there Ben infidelity? That doesn't mean that there's a sex addiction or not. But sometimes if someone's really addicted, they're gonna find some outlet for that. I'll try to see how often they're actually having sex. Are they having sex? There's no normal amount. But if if one partner is saying, my other partner never wants to have sex, I say, Well, how often do you two have sex? And like, oh, three or four times a week. I'm like, okay, that's not they're never wanting to have sex. Let's like calibrate maybe just some reasonable expectations. As far as yeah, oh, go ahead.

Why Frequency Has No Magic Number

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Can I can I dig into the frequency here? Yeah. Because what is a normal frequency for someone to want? And when does that frequency start to raise a red flag? I'm just to be transparent because I feel like I I should be. It's my podcast. If I had a relationship where I am currently not in a relationship with someone I'm living with, I am someone who would like daily intimacy of some sport, some sort, right? Whether I'd love to have an orgasm almost every day if I could. And you want to give me two, I'm not gonna complain. Yeah. And I know some women in relationships, and I'm saying women because it's it's mostly with women that I hear this brought up about their male partners. And I know that it goes the other way. I know I've heard the nymphomaniac terminology thrown around by usually it's incels who aren't getting laid by them themselves. So, but I have heard women become concerned when they're like, he just wants it like all of the time, and he's watching porn. And and my thought, and and they they're maybe having sex once every couple of weeks. And I'm like, oh, he might be a little backed up, man. So what's frequency? Let's talk frequency. What's normal frequency for someone to want to have sex?

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, well, so it's I will I will borrow kind of a line from Emily Nagoski, who wrote Come As You Are, which is there truly is no, even if we had some sort of okay, here's the kind of the average that people report, which again, self-report is often not entirely accurate, honest. When it comes down to an individual or a couple, even that's irrelevant. So to me, it's okay, the a quote unquote normal amount or like the right amount is where both people feel like reasonably satisfied most of the time. It's probably not going to be all of the time because that's how life works, but enough of the time that it's not causing like relationship issues or if things kind of go off a little bit and it's less frequent than people would like, they can kind of quickly course correct and get it on track if something comes up. So if both partners are enthusiastic and want to have sex three times a day, I say great. If both of you are really up for that, there's and it's okay for both partners to say no and the other one doesn't get overwhelmed with rejection or make the other person feel pressured, then like excellent. If both partners are completely fine and satisfied having sex once every few months and that really works for them, and neither one feels like they're really their needs are not being met or they're not able to initiate, or there's other issues going on. Fine. There's no right or wrong amount of frequency. I think it's really about are both people reasonably satisfied enough of the time? And is there like true enthusiastic consent? Well, there's it's okay to say no and it's okay to initiate, knowing that your partner may or may not be in the mood at that time. So yeah, that's there's no right. And as far as like frequency of if one partner really wants to orgasm at least once a day and their partner is, okay, I don't want to have sex every day, or it's impractical because of life to be able to do that. There's also no like right or wrong amount of times to orgasm in a day. Whereas something like a sex addiction or compulsivity, I'd be looking at, okay, are is this person like using porn and masturbating in a way that is like reckless? Are they doing it at work? Are they doing it where if there are kids around, they could find out are they spending way more money on content than they really have? Or are they spending so much time on this that it's interfering with work or their relationships? It's really, let's see what's going on. Is this having negative consequences that they're either not seeing or willing to live with and kind of focusing in on that as opposed to a magical number of, okay, you're a sex addict if you masturbate this many times a day? It's uh it doesn't really work exactly like that.

Porn, Strip Clubs, And Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Right. So this is a great opportunity to debunk some myths or maybe prove them. So I'm just gonna kind of rattle off things that I know have brought up concerns for folks. So does it mean you are a sex addict if you like to watch porn? No.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

No, most a lot of people like to watch porn. Some a lot of couples will watch porn together. Black couples will make their own porn of themselves that they can watch back or even post online. Like none of that means that you're a sex addict or have compulsivity issues around sex and masturbation. It's really sort of the what we find with with books that like kind of get into what we'd call porn addiction. It's really a lot of times it's the okay, you can't stop and you want to, or there's an escalation in the the kind of content you're watching where maybe it's getting to you have to kind of get something more and more intense. So like going to to kind of places in the internet that you might have not gone otherwise to like kind of chase a high. Those are things that if someone's reporting those to me, I'm thinking, okay, there might be an issue here, or combining like certain drugs in masturbation or sex, like methamphetamines or cocaine, we call it chemsex, that can end up being like kind of a co-addiction that can get really, really quite dangerous for the person engaging in those things. So things like that, I'm looking for those like red flags of, okay, this behavior has gone beyond like a healthy just self-pleasure or exploration, and you're getting to the point where the person is likely to have some really negative consequences or take risks that they they shouldn't take. Or they're also, again, just not really even enjoying it anymore. They're like, well, I just feel like I can't have to keep going and keep watching more and more porn and I don't even like it anymore. Why am I doing this? That is something they'd be like, okay, well, that seems like there's a problem there. But porn I view is sort of a neutral thing that can be good, can be bad, can be in between, but it does not certainly watching porn alone. If that made everyone a sex addict, then like the whole country would probably be in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah. So on that note, then if someone likes to frequent a strip club, does that make them a sex addict?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, no. That alone certainly would that would just make them someone that frequents strip clubs. With that information, that's all I could say is that they like strip clubs and right.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

No, uh, and I agree with you, but I again have heard the sentiment well, he's a sex addict, he goes to strip clubs or is she?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Um because there are women who love to frequent strip strip strip clubs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah. That would be the equivalent of saying, well, it's not a perfect metaphor, but substances are kind of the closest thing I have off the top of my head. If you have someone to say, hey, if somebody goes to the bar every weekend, are they an alcoholic? I'd be like, well, maybe, maybe not. I would need so much more information than that to see if that seemed like there was a problem there. It might be someone could go to a bar every weekend and literally not drink. Someone could go to a bar every weekend and it's a huge bender followed by a bender every other day of the week, and that would be a problem. So it just going to a strip club, just watching porn, just having frequent sex, none of that means that someone necessarily has an addiction. And plenty of sex addicts might not even do any of those things.

Kink Is Not An Addiction

SPEAKER_00 21:31

So right. And so then I would take this to the next level because I hear concerns about this a lot. My partner wants to try kink, or I caught them like researching bondage, or I saw them watching videos on whatever the kink is. And there are so many pet play or age play. I think they're a sex addict, they've got a problem, they're into this kinky stuff. Can we talk about the fact that sex addiction is different than kink?

Shame, Trauma, And What’s Underneath

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Absolutely. Yeah. The kink and sex addiction, these are separate things, right? Could a sex addiction involve a kink? Sure. But having a kink, whether it's something that someone's just curious about or they know they really like alone, does not make sex addiction by any means. And there's, I think I really wish more couples would feel more comfortable to just talk about these things and recognize that there are plenty for plenty of people, there are sort of different kinks or interests or curiosities that they might only want to have in a fantasy or only watch in porn or read in erotica. Some they might want to experiment with in real life with their partner. And all these things are perfectly fine and healthy and normal. Recognizing also that just because somebody looks something up doesn't necessarily mean they want to do that thing in real life or they have some sort of values around whatever they're looking at. Like quite often kinks involve things that in the real world we actually really are afraid of or really don't like. For example, uh within BDSM, like having a power play kind of a scenario where one person is in charge of the other. Like most people that engage in that kind of kink play don't think that in the real world or don't want in their regular lives like that to be 24-7. For some small percentage of people in kink world, that is something they like. And if two people are into it and they are consenting adults, they're like, great. But the reality is like for so many people, their fantasies can. Be something that they do feel so ashamed to talk about. And then when it's discovered, there's like shame brought by their partner. And that just s shuts down conversations that can be really fruitful and bring like such fun, vibrant, interesting things to their sex life. Even if that doesn't happen to actually be the kink that the one partner was like looking up. There might be a lot of other things that people could be open to. And I don't know, it just also it's not that it's not as weird as people think it is. Like everyone, everything is something, and most people have something that they're into that they feel maybe a little embarrassed or ashamed of. And I think the more conversations partners could have together on this, the better the relationships would be, and probably the better their sex lives would be.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Is sex addiction always about sex or is it about something else entirely?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Now that is a great question. And I would argue to say that in a lot of ways it really isn't about sex. A lot of times in in addiction, we call like the thing that someone's addicted to, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, the addiction is kind of like the medicine they're taking to treat the underlying issue. And it's like they're taking the wrong medicine or the medicine that is going to help numb or get rid of the underlying emotions and feelings that are really uncomfortable, the thing, the pain that you don't want to look at or don't want to feel, or can't, or don't have the tools to be able to handle. And so, yeah, sex addiction, porn addiction, same as any other addiction, it's really not about like that's just the tool that folks are using to cover up something that's underneath there that's going on.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

There sort of typical things that are underlying that come up as common things in in sex addiction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

This is again, like everyone is diverse and there's no, okay, it always goes back to this or that. But oftentimes there's deep shame, deep shame around sex, deep shame around other areas of their life. We certainly do see trauma a lot. Doesn't mean that someone who's traumatized is going to become an addict, but not uncommon to see childhood trauma, especially, and that can get mixed with shame very easily. Really, a lot of times it's if someone for whatever reason has just never really been able to learn how to manage their own emotional states, like being able to get through feelings that are really difficult and painful and sometimes unbearable. That's often when addiction comes in. And it's sort of like the morphine for the pain. Like it's not a treatment. It's something that can numb an a pain at the time, but long term is going to end up causing more damage and it's not going to treat the underlying issue. So I guess the common denominator would be that there is, there's some pain or there's some inability to be able to like deal with difficult emotions, to reach out for help, to to self-soothe, to get support, to change things in their life so that those painful things can be worked through. That's usually what we see. Like with the addiction, it's it's there's always something underneath and figuring out what's really going on also goes hand in hand with like getting sober from whatever it is so that we can actually see clearly. Because with the addiction clouding it, it's oh, it's really hard, if not impossible, to see what's really going on underneath there.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So on the topic of shame, how do shame and secrecy feed into compulsive sex patterns?

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Oh, yeah. It's it's such a hallmark, honestly. Shame, secrecy. Well, secrecy just keeps usually breeding more and more shame, right? Someone is like engaging in behaviors that they feel like they can't stop, even though at times they want to, or they recognize are having really negative impacts on their life, but yet they can't seem to do something different or make different choices that don't have those negative impacts. That feels shameful, right? Nobody wants to feel like they're out of control of their own behaviors and also having to hide from everyone and keeping that secrecy just builds that shame more and more and more. And it helps kind of compartmentalize where it's sort of for a lot of addicts, it's like, well, this part of myself is just in this like box over here. No one knows about it. And over time, they don't let the rest of their life and that what they put in that box kind of interact. And that kind of incongruency between parts of yourself and your life that you're keeping secret and everything else, that can also be really stressful and really cause a lot of additional pain. And it all feeds on itself. Like the longer it's secret and the more lies are told, and the more people don't know about it, the more shame. And then, like, kind of the thicker the walls around the container that they put the addiction in becomes. And then there's this whole other life and person they have in there that they're so ashamed of. And that really, that's I think why a lot of like 12-step groups can be so helpful because they immediately bring people together that are dealing with the same thing. And that can help lift shame so effectively, just seeing that other people have been going through the same thing and you're not alone and you're not a bad, broken, terrible person. But you do need to deal with this and integrate this in this box that you've had, break it apart and shine light on it and become kind of like the whole person without having this segmented part in your life cut off from everyone else that you're ashamed of. Community is such an important part of addiction treatment for that reason, I think, is because it's a real anecdote to that shame that so many people feel.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

So I've kind of been going between saying sex addiction and compulsive sexual acts. Is there what would you do call this problematic sexual behavior sex addiction? Or do you call it something else? What is the most correct term? Because I know that there are people out there who say sex addiction isn't a real thing. How would you address this?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, honestly, when I work with clients, if the term sex addiction, if the term addiction resonates with them, then we'll go with that. If compulsivity kind of feels like either less shaming or just kind of feels like it's more accurate for them, we'll go with that. I'm not hung up on the terms really. And honestly, like a lot of times the treatment is really the same either way, is we're still getting to use a lot of tools that help to lift shame, get people into community, stop the compulsive or addictive, however we're describing it, behavior, so that you can start to see what's really going on underneath, getting tools to regulate emotions when otherwise people would go to sex or porn or whatever else it is to numb those feelings. And it's gonna really be the same treatment, whether we call it addiction or compulsivity. So to me, it's well, let's use whatever language makes sense to the client and resonates with them. It doesn't really matter to me if they want to call it addiction or not. It's a behavior that's causing issues that they want to stop. And so we're gonna work on that.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

So now, guys, we kind of know what sex addiction, compulsivity is and what it's not, which I think is really important. But what I want to talk about now is what is it like? What does it feel like to be dealing with this addiction? Kind of take a look from the perspective of someone who's experiencing it. Can you tell us what this experience might be for someone who's struggling with sexual compulsivity that would bring them to your doorstep for help?

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Yeah, great question. And there's definitely uh a number of people who will come to therapy for help once when they've been caught by a partner. And again, I always want to emphasize that infidelity does not equal sex addiction.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

There's a lot of reasons people might cheat or have affairs and yeah, I wanna, I wanna emphasize that because I do think that it is sometimes a tool that gets used when a person is angry about being cheated on, especially if they've been cheated on multiple times by the same person. That is not necessarily, that does not mean they're a sex addict necessarily. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

No, absolutely. That's definitely true. And and I do, if people come to me and they have been caught or confess to being unfaithful in their relationship, even if their partner thinks they're a sex addict, I'm still a sex clinician starting from like step one of let's evaluate and see what's really going on here. I'm not going to assume sex addiction because that very well might not be the case. And sometimes it is. But again, it's infidelity alone is not, does not equal sex addiction. So some people come in again, like because they've they've been caught. Others will will come in because they are recognizing they're finally kind of to the point where the negative consequences of these kind of compulsive behaviors have gotten to the point where they really realize that this isn't working for them anymore. And they've also usually tried several times on their own to stop and found distressingly that they can't. And that they might just recognize that, hey, this like just doesn't really feel good at all. I don't, I need to figure out why I'm doing this. For some folks, it might be other consequences. I'm spending way too much money, or I'm missing important events, or what's hurting other like work or family relationships or whatever it is. And for some people, again, it's like maybe there's not even an obvious negative consequence other than it just doesn't feel good to keep kind of chasing something that you want to make you feel better and it's not working anymore, and you also can't stop chasing that kind of high that very similar to drug addiction, that like it used to kind of quote unquote work and it doesn't often anymore, or it only does sometimes and they find they can't stop, and that's really distressing. And so that's usually when people will come in and either they're not quite sure if it's really a problem or really addiction, but they're kind of not sure and they want to explore, or they come in and it's yeah, this I recognize I think this is an addiction, this is a compulsion, I have to figure out what's going on and figure out how to stop. You get people in varying degrees of like kind of readiness or willingness to change, and we just meet them where they're at and evaluate and see what's going on and then move forward from there.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Does sex addiction or compulsive sexual behavior look different from gender to gender, whether it's man, woman, non-binary, trans, do we notice a difference in how it shows up?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

I that's a really interesting question. I think the answer is sort of yes and no. At the core of it, it seems like the same kind of processes are in in place. But I do see that I think, especially in queer communities, like you're mentioning before, there's like a lot more kind of room for people to have like multiple partners or have a lot more casual relationships. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's no, that there's fewer sex addicts because socially it's like more acceptable in some of those communities. But it might mean that people, by the time they recognize that this might be an issue, it's like they've gone maybe a little bit deeper, a little bit further. That's certainly not a rule by any means, but that's one thing I I will notice. But then again, on the other hand, a lot of times in more like kind of heteronormative communities, the opposite can happen, where things like you were mentioning before get labeled sex addiction when it's okay, that might not actually be what we're looking at here.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Something this conversation has made me think about, though, is that a person who lives in more of a conventional social group is heterosexual, monogamous, might think their sexual urges or needs are unhealthy or hurting their life because of the rules they're kind of and the limitations they're stuck in in their relationship or or in their community. Yeah. Whereas if you are in a queer community or a sex positive community or a polyamorous community, those rules are much more inclusive, are inclusive of so much more that it may not hurt your life to want sex more or want. So I guess that brings up the question of if you're again a heterosexual monogamous conventional person, you might think that your sexual urges are problematic in your life. And you might think, oh, I this is compulsive and it's hurting my life. Whereas if you took exactly what they're doing and you put it in a different community, they'd be like, oh no, this is just what we all do. Yeah. So how do you how do you parse out what what is really a problem then and what's not, right?

Clear Hallmarks To Watch For

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah. No, again, great question. And and we do always want to understand what what people believe about sex. What were they taught from their parents or their religion, their community, that what is supposed to be normal and what's not, and kind of suss out, okay, is this do you think that this behavior is a problem because you've been told that it's supposed to be a problem versus is it actually a problem? And that's a really good point. We do always try to sort that out a bit. So it's not just, okay, you're believing that this is wrong or you're a sex addict because you have been told you're only supposed to want the person you're married to and you can't be attracted to anyone else ever, which is like unrealistic and doesn't have to go act on that every time if you're in a monogamous relationship, but that those desires aren't inherently indicative of any issue. So I would say that when we sort through all kind of the cultural or the different communities and their standards, what it really comes down to is okay, if you're if you're, let's say you're unable to have sex or unable to masturbate or unable to watch porn, what happens? That's often a question I find can be how like illuminating is if you're not able to have sex or to orgasm, are you maybe like mildly annoyed or it's a little like a bummer? Or are you finding that you're like really get dysregulated emotionally? If you're not being able to have sex or able to masturbate, are you getting really irritable? Are you getting really aggressive? Are you noticing you're getting depressed or super anxious? Some of these things can kind of, it's sort of like when we take away what for some people might be an unhealthy coping mechanism and seeing what happens, that often can be a way to sort of differentiate between, okay, someone is just fine. People are telling them that their behavior is bad, but maybe it isn't actually indicative of a real compulsivity issue. Or when we take away this behavior, the behavior is not it's not available. Are you noticing like real emotional shifts that are distressing beyond just like a mild, okay, it's kind of a bummer, you can't do something that you really like. Right. That makes sense. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

So those would be some hallmarks that people could look for. So could we just quickly bullet point, if you will, some hallmarks of having the potential of having a sex addiction or compulsive behavior that should be dealt with? Maybe just let's list a couple off here.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah. So again, one is okay, is it causing problems in your life that basically it's not worth it for? Have you tried to stop and found you're unable to, like multiple times tried to stop and and been unsuccessful? Are you using sex or masturbation as like your primary or only coping mechanism for stress, negative emotions, relationship problems, whatever it is? It's nothing wrong with sex or masturbation as like a stress relief sometimes, but if it's your only coping tool or it's the one you always go to, even in times when it might cause other problems, that is kind of a red flag. Are you increasingly taking more and more risks that are, you know, putting your health, your safety, your relationships at risk in order to get sexual satisfaction? That's also another one where it's okay, if there's escalating risks you're willing to take, that is kind of a red flag. And I'd say also just if it if you start to feel like you have to do something and you don't even really know why, or you don't even like really want to, like maybe you're having sex and it doesn't even feel good anymore. You're just doing it because you feel like you need to, you have to, or same with masturbation. It's you're like, why am I even doing this? Do I even really want to come? You're losing track of that. That's another indication that's okay, something is a little off here.

Treatment, Detox, And Recovery Supports

SPEAKER_00 42:40

So now we can know what it looks like from the inside and some hallmarks. What is the process of treating a sex addiction or compulsive behavior? What does it look like?

SPEAKER_01 42:53

So the the first step is always basically kind of stabilization. And often I recommend clients get into an appropriate like 12-step fellowship. It's not that that's the only way to treat an addiction, but it can be really helpful in one immediately finding kind of community that can help with that shame. And also 12-step programs read it because they're everywhere and they're free. So it's very, very accessible. There's sex addicts anonymous, sex and love addicts anonymous, sex and porn addicts anonymous. And these groups can be really, really helpful, especially in the beginning, just to get because because addictions thrive in secrecy and shame. And community is like the anecdote to that. So that's why I think that there's nothing necessarily magical about like the 12-step program. It can be really powerful and save lives for a lot of people. And the community, I think, is really the heart of that. So usually we'll we'll start off with okay, we're gonna have a plan to try a few different 12-step meetings. We're gonna establish kind of some boundaries around how they might, for themselves, define their sexual sobriety, because the goal of treating sex or porn addiction isn't to like never have sex again or isn't to be celibate for the rest of their lives. That's the opposite of the goal. You want people to have a healthy sexuality. And so we always start by establishing okay, like what are the things that are the problem that you want to define your sobriety by? So within if you were an alcoholic, okay, you're not gonna drink. It's pretty simple. If you're a sex addict, not that you're never gonna have sex, and say, okay, defining my sexual sobriety is not having sex under these circumstances or not having sex outside of a relationship if it's a monogamous relationship, whatever that means to you, the definition of sexual sobriety is going to be different for everyone, depending on what particular issues they're dealing with. So really establishing that, getting them into community, and then starting to just work on a lot of the sort of the scaffolding of behavioral change, as well as starting to get into okay, what's underneath here? What was this covering up and treating for you? What's the pain there? And starting to look at that and and moving into treating those things as the client stabilizes and is not like constantly going back to the same destructive behaviors over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

So it's not a all about abstinence. If someone is is treating a sex addiction, that doesn't mean they have to stop having sex altogether.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

No, I'll there will be for some clients. I will suggest having a short period of abstinence from all sexual activity. And by short period, I mean like 30 days, maybe longer, but that's not the goal. The goal is not abstinence from those things. If I suggest taking kind of a break from sex or masturbation, it's almost kind of like a detox period. So let's get you through one, one also it can also be helpful to make sure that the diagnosis is right. Because a lot of times, if there really is a compulsivity or an addiction issue there, if somebody totally gives up, you know, masturbation or sex, they will notice things symptoms that are pretty similar to like withdrawal from drugs or alcohol. And that's hard to get through, but it is good to kind of reset the nervous system and to not be going to this kind of um going to these behaviors that just give them like the quick dopamine kind of that they're looking for to feel better. And okay, we're gonna power through, see what's underneath there, and get and then we can start integrating healthy sexuality.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Can you talk about what the withdrawal symptoms will feel like for someone who has an a sexual? Addiction when they go cold turkey for 30 days.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Mood disturbances, I would say, again, whether it's like more anxiety or more depression or both. That's definitely something that can come up because they're not covering those feelings with their drug of choice anymore. And also, your literally brain chemistry has to kind of even out when it's not getting the source of dopamine and excitement and pleasure that it's used to. It takes a little bit for the nervous system to kind of get settled into just kind of everyday life and not feeling like this void of the feel-good hormones because they're taking away the quick hit that is usually there for them. So that's a hard period of time, but it can be really, really helpful in kind of just getting people sort of back into balance just in their bodies and their nervous systems. I'll also hear things like it being difficult to sleep or even feeling kind of like jittery. There's a lot of the symptoms, it's really again just like their nervous system is kind of resetting.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

And that's that's what that period of time can feel like. So after you've done this nervous system reset for someone who is struggling with compulsive sexual behaviors, moving forward, you also said that you would ask for them or hope for them to look for a community through whether it's a 12-step program or some other program. But then what does moving forward look like for them?

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Yeah, great question. Again, everyone's gonna have their own personal definition of kind of what it means to be sober or to be whatever term they choose to kind of be recovered from these issues. And going forward, there's not like a set of, okay, everyone will have these sets of sexual behaviors and not these other ones. It's gonna look different for everyone. And really at the core of it, when I think about people who are in recovery from sex addiction or sex-related addictions, the most important thing really is that they've worked through and processed and healed what the addiction was covering up for them. And that for some folks, like staying in the 12-step community and being kind of in that kind of treatment is a lifelong, those are lifelong tools they use. Others, they might have like other support systems that whatever it is, like anyone in recovery from addiction has to have a support system that they can talk to about stuff that's coming up on life and continue to build those like healthy coping mechanisms that are gonna replace the ones that did not work for the client anymore, that were causing problems that were not ultimately actually dealing with what was on underneath. So then that's gonna look different for everyone. For some, it's like meditation and other groups outside of 12-step programs that are kind of groups in recovery and support system. For some, it's 12-step for indefinitely, and that can be really helpful. But there's not one path that it's like, all right, this is the only way. At least that's not my opinion, other than I think community that you can be vulnerable around. That's the the one that I'm like, I don't know that anyone could stay in a sustained recovery without a supportive community that they can be honest with.

Next Steps And Getting Help

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Right. All right. So for my listeners, we've come to this point now, what it looks like, what it doesn't look like, what it looks like from the inside, and some of the steps to recovery. So before we go, can you tell my listeners whether they are someone who's concerned that they may have an addiction going on or someone who's in a relationship with someone right now and they're like, I feel like something's off. What should they do? What can they do right now to take a step forward and dealing with this head on?

How Partners Start The Talk

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Yeah, I'd be remiss if I didn't pitch coming to gender wellness Los Angeles. I specialize in these issues, of course. And then our other therapists also have experience in working around addictions and can be very helpful in like seeking a therapist to help assess what's really going on, to see if there's an addiction or compulsivity issue there, if there's something else. There's also some tools online. Folks can look up Sex Addicts Anonymous, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, Sex Porn Addicts Anonymous. And there are some like sort of screening questions that are not diagnostic that can just be helpful to see, okay, do I resonate with some of the things that other addicts have experienced? Does this sound like me? Does this not sound like me? People can also attend meetings, even if they're not sure if they're an addict, and just listen to others and again see, okay, does some of this resonate? Or what what I'm hearing from other people? Is that something I've felt and gone through? So this is some great first steps. If it's a partner that you're worried about, I definitely think like couples therapy with a therapist who has experience with sex addiction can be really helpful. Individual therapy for an addict if they're in the midst of their addiction is really important. But just to kind of evaluate and see what's going on there, getting a professional, because it's not something that most people can really deal with and fix on their own. It's a it can be a difficult thing to navigate.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

So I have two things. Well, a statement and then a question for you. So the first statement is I would hope, and just from my point of view, and I'm sure yours too, I think it's really important that when you look for help, that you do go to someone who's a sex-positive sex therapist. Absolutely. Because you're going to want someone who's able to tell the difference between problematic sexual behavior that's an addiction or compulsive versus perhaps interests and needs you have that are absolutely normal but fall outside of vanilla life. Maybe you're just not vanilla. And what I would hate to see is someone get labeled as having an addiction who just has some kinks or urges that are perfectly normal. So finding someone like Kate who is knowledgeable in that area and is going to be able to parse out the difference between the two, especially if you have a partner who thinks you're in a in an addiction who maybe is just doesn't have the same interests as you. But I would say this for the partner how would you suggest a partner approach their partner who they think has a sex addiction? What are some ways they can start that conversation in a way that doesn't like immediately go south?

SPEAKER_01 53:21

Yeah, good question. I would say that of course it depends on, I guess, what the what issue has brought up them wondering if their partner is a sex addict. Is it if it's betrayal or infidelity? I would really also really suggest that partner seeks a therapist that is trained in treating kind of but what we call betrayal trauma, which is just the trauma of, and it doesn't necessarily even have to just be with infidelity. That might be betrayal in any number of other ways. But that can be really traumatic to find out that your partner has lied to you or betrayed you, whether that's infidelity or lying about finances or something else, like whatever that is, really important to seek treatment for themselves, to take care of themselves. But as far as approaching their partner, that can be tricky because people, sometimes people are ready to change and sometimes they aren't. I would say approaching a partner in a way that is concerned about why they're doing what they're doing, being curious, not like shaming is rarely an approach that is terribly helpful. So I would say, yeah, if you if that's something you're concerned, expressing concern to your partner that, hey, I'm worried that this behavior is something that's hurting you or that's covering up something underneath that you might need to deal with. Are you willing to talk to someone? Are you willing to read a book or look into this or go to a meeting or just explore if this is something that maybe isn't really, like you said before, about sex, but is about something else. And being curious and also taking care of yourself. I think that's so huge for partners, is making sure that you're not only focusing all your energy on trying to like help or quote unquote fix your partner and at the expense of yourself, because that can also be like very codependent, and that is something we also see a lot. And so it's really important to get the support that you need, get the perspective from from others. Even there's also groups for for betrayed partners, and you can get the perspectives of others who have gone through something similar, whether they're they are with their partners or not. And just to like really have that self-care is so important because you can't you can't change anyone on your own. It's not how it works. And so being able to kind of put your own life vest on first or your own the air mask, the face mask. Put the life vest on and the air face.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Yeah, I like the air the thing, the airplane. No, oxygen mask.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

I knew I was missing the word very good. Your own oxygen mask on first and then and and the life vest. Yes, yes, up. Exactly. Yeah, because you can't rounding, you can't help someone else.

Where To Find Kate And Annette

SPEAKER_00 56:16

No, you can't. You can't. That's great advice. Thank you so much, Kate. Can you tell all of my listeners where they can find you, especially if after listening to this, they're like, I need help. I or I need to talk to someone.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

So yeah, absolutely. So they can find me and reach out if they're interested in therapy in California at gender wellness's website, which is gengenw-e-l-l genwell.org. You can also find us on Instagram at genderwellnessla. And I'm also on psychology today. I was saying like genwell.org. You can give us a call or an email and we'll get back to you really quickly, whether it's wanting to set up an appointment or a consultation, or if you need someone to just help guide you towards the right resources, we're always happy to help.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

You so much. And of course, guys, you know where to find me. If you have any questions after watching this, you know that if you're on my YouTube channel, which is at TalkSexwithanet, you can drop a comment below in the comments section. You can also always email me at Annette at talkswithanette.com. You can scroll down to the links below and you're going to find a speak pipe link. Send me a voice mail and ask your question. And I will get the question to Kate, or I will get back to you and tell you to get a hold of her, or I will address it here on my podcast. Again, thank you so much for joining me today, Kate. I really appreciate it. This has really opened my eyes to sex addiction and compulsive behavior. And I think it's going to help a lot of people understand better what's going on in their own relationships as well. Thank you so much, and that's been great. And to my listeners, until next time, I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.