Hey Julia Woods
Join me, Julia Woods, a couples coach and wife of over 3 decades, as I share some of my client's stories and my own so that you can be encouraged, inspired, and gain new results in your marriage.
Hey Julia Woods
I don’t know what to say....He increased staying in conflict by 300%
Michael shares his transformative journey from retreating from difficult conversations with his wife to embracing curiosity, resulting in a 300% increase in his ability to stay engaged during tense moments.
• Michael went from staying curious in two out of ten conversations to eight out of ten
• He identified his tendency to retreat when feeling "not enough" during disagreements
• The dynamic of his wife having a stronger voice in discussions made him prone to giving up
• Recognizing physical signs of defensiveness (tightened stomach muscles) helps him pause before reacting
• Viewing his wife as a resource rather than an opponent transformed their communication
• Staying in "your own backyard" focuses on managing your responses rather than your partner's
• Vulnerability in sharing when feeling defensive creates space for honest communication
• Checking in with "where are you?" regarding emotions helps identify what's really happening internally
• Tensions in proactive vs. reactive approaches to parenting provided practical examples
• Breakthrough Retreats provide focused opportunities to practice new communication skills
Join us at Beautiful Outcome's Breakthrough Retreats to learn practical tools for transforming tension in your marriage into opportunities for deeper connection.
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💥💥Everything you need to grow the marriage you long for is waiting for you in the Marriage Growth Community:
https://beautifuloutcome.com/mgc-one-time-offer
🎁 Free Gift for you! 100 Prompts and Ideas to Connect with your Spouse!
🎁 FREE GIFT: Turn Defensiveness into Connection! https://beautifuloutcome.com/e-guide
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Welcome to hey Julia Woods podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationship and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of hey, julia Woods. I am so excited to have a gentleman that I call my friend first and foremost and he has been a very long time client. He and his wife and me and my husband were introduced to each other through mutual work in the world of marriage and I got to start coaching him and his wife, and that was 14.
Speaker 2:A long time ago, a long time ago I don't even know how long ago and so I am excited to have Michael also here on this podcast with me. Thank you, Michael, for joining us.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:So I am starting you might notice I'm starting to do interviews with individuals of marriages, so Michael and Caitlin are in a great place. I'm just simply interviewing Michael by himself because sometimes I think it's really valuable to get the voice of an individual spouse in the conversation, and so Michael decided to join me. I've actually gotten to start doing coaching with Michael alone and also coaching with he and his wife, and Michael has been actively involved in the Breakthrough Retreats on the leadership team and attending since they began five years ago. So that's what we're going to focus on is really about Breakthrough and the difference that's making for you and what is happening in your life. Through that and you and I were talking a little bit about this podcast and we realized that you have had a 300% increase in your ability to stay in conversations with Caitlin, so that's a big deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when you did the math and I'm not a math guy and I was like, yeah, you said 60%. And I was like, yeah, that sounds accurate, let's go with 60%. And then we did the math and it's like, oh, it's 300%. I'm like, oh, am I doing that?
Speaker 2:good, yeah yeah, thanks to chat GPT. I put in the numbers and it came back with a number that both of us, I put in the numbers and it came back with a number that we'll trust both of us.
Speaker 3:No, it's great. Yeah, you know it's. It's fascinating to think through what life was like before that and thinking through, like the the numbers that I gave Julia was, you know, I feel like eight times out of 10. Now I can stay in a conversation with curiosity versus defensiveness, versus, um, escaping, you know, or retreating away from the conversation, uh, whereas before it was like two times out of 10, like, defensiveness was kind of my initial, like Caitlin and I would butt up against each other and and have tried to defend our position, or my other go-to is to retreat and just get up and walk out and be like this is ridiculous, we're not getting anywhere. And so, yeah, when you do the math on two out of 10 versus eight out of 10, there's a 300% increase, apparently, and so, yeah, we'll stand on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and eight out of 10 times. That's the goal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, nobody's out of 10 times. That's the goal, Like yeah, yeah, Nobody's perfect.
Speaker 2:Eight out of 10 is pretty amazing. So I think a lot of men will really, really resonate with the tendency to be in a conversation, especially with a strong woman. Like Caitlin has a very successful business and has a very strong voice, and that's one of her many gifts and talents, and so being the spouse of someone like that, that tendency to pull away, to be like give up, surrender in a way of retreating and giving up um, is pretty common, so. So I'd love to go deeper into that and just help people who might be in your place, whether they're male, whether they're female. I think in every relationship there is a tendency for one who has a stronger voice.
Speaker 3:The dominator.
Speaker 2:Now I did not say that the dominator, now I did not say that To attract someone who's more willing to give up their voice or, you know, can be a little bit more passive in conversations when they feel like there's no reason they should keep trying to have a voice in the conversation.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 2:So I don't want to generalize it to male versus female, but what would you be willing to share Like kind of what are you discovering was driving your tendency to retreat or to give up on curiosity? Two out of 10 times in the conversations the two of you would have?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't. I don't want to go too far into the history, but Caitlin and I grew up together. We've known each other our whole lives. I'm two years older than Caitlin and we started dating when I was a junior in high school. She was a freshman, and so the beginning part of our relationship it almost was flipped where I was the older outgoing.
Speaker 3:You know, she is finding herself as she grows up and for a long time she had the identity of, like, oh, I'm Michael's girlfriend. And then as we get into college and I graduate and she's wrapping up with school, she creates her photography business. It explodes as she finishes school and she's not just Michael's girlfriend anymore and then creates this name for herself online and the business grows and then I end up joining her in the business, which is a whole part of the conversation that we could probably have of. You know, it's her business, but I'm supporting her in that and there was a shift of like. You know, you're kind of in charge now and I'm the support or the supporting role made up in my mind that I was the supporting role in that, and so, yeah, I think that's where a lot of it came from, that you know Caitlin's calling the shots and a lot of the frustrations or disagreements were around the business. I mean, our life was the business, basically, and you know. And then we throw kids into the mix and, yeah, I don't know how fast I would, I don't want to go too fast.
Speaker 3:But yeah, there's the aspect of, you know, our families that we grew up with were very different and and the and the mindset of well, the way my family did, it was right and mine not that mine was wrong, but that it was less than or not as ideal, and so I would default to be like, yeah, well, if that's what your parents did or if that's what you think we should do, let's just do that Instead of having the argument or standing in the tension. We should do. Let's just do that instead of having the argument or standing in the tension. Yeah. So that's kind of the overarching, I think, pieces at play that I think are pretty common in a lot of marriages, where you know if someone is the breadwinner, it's like, well, we got to default to them because they're the ones producing the income. So, like, if there's an argument of how we're spending the income, I feel like I don't really have a say um, or different stories that we can make up in that way. Does that make sense? That was kind of all over the place.
Speaker 2:No, it makes so much sense and and it's fun I hadn't ever um my brain, hadn't remembered the, the detail of her being Michael's girlfriend and the well, and following me to college and like just introducing her, like she's with him, you know interesting, and another dynamic that may not relate to a lot of people, I do see.
Speaker 2:I do sense that it plays into the dynamic as well is her father was your pastor growing up and and remained your pastor until not that ago, and so she's the pastor's daughter. So how did that play into that dynamic?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a good question. I don't know if I've unpacked that fully. Yeah, I think it's interesting because when I left school or when we got married, my first job was a youth pastor and so she again had this role of just being related to and the role that that played in our relationship. That is interesting. I don't know if I've ever really explored that very far. What are you thinking, what are you sensing in that? That's interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. There's the commonality. I dated a pastor's son for a year and so to me I felt the pastor had so much wisdom, so much insight, like the way he raised his family was so much better than the way my parents raised me Right. So that meant that I trusted what my boyfriend had to say as the way we were supposed to do things, because he was the child of the man that I esteemed, as you know, the moral leader in my life.
Speaker 3:Sure sure.
Speaker 2:And so I don't know if that resonates for what you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I think for us it's more of like a family, like I realize I recognize that in how we raise our kids and how we run our household and things like that. I don't know if I've ever thought about it in like the in compare in relationship with Caitlin. That is interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you guys have a interesting dynamic in that. Well, just for context for people, you guys have four children. Evie is how old?
Speaker 3:We tell people we're on the even years. So we have an eight year old, a six year old, a four year old and a two year old, a girl at the oldest and then three boys that are wild Evie can hang with them, our oldest, um, she is a sweet little girl, my princess, but can be as rough with the boys as they need to be, so she's a great uh ringleader for them be as rough with the boys as they need to be, so she's a great ringleader for them.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and you have you currently. What is your title at the school? I'm the head of school Headmaster, yeah.
Speaker 3:I keep.
Speaker 2:I always make change it in my mind to headmaster, but you're the head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that is a whole nother thing of acting that you are. You and Caitlin and your brother and sister and brother in law and sister in law have started a school where your children go, and you are doing that and have stepped out of the business with Caitlin, and so lots of new things are opening up for you guys. If you could articulate like because what would you say are some of the most common conflicts? That, where did you have the hardest time being curious? Like we talked about you being in the business but in regards to your relationship with her, the dynamics of you know, running the household finances, running the household itself, pursuing the marriage, pursuing reconciliation in conflicts, things like that. Like, where did you have the hardest time choosing curiosity?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question. I think the first one that comes up for me is um Caitlin and I are very clear on this tension between what we call um proactive versus reactive. She sees issues before they are issues and tries to address them, whereas I'm like we'll cross that bridge when we get to it Like don't worry about today what's for tomorrow and you know things like that, where I'm like it's not a big deal and that that phrase me saying it's not a big deal is one of the biggest landmines that I I step on often, that that she gets frustrated with me that I'm minimizing her concerns and um. So the example that I always share with people that has been prevalent in our lives is like the idea of pornography. You know, our daughter at school is has her own laptop. You know there there are safe searches on the computers and all that. It would take some work to see something that she's not supposed to see.
Speaker 3:But she's like I want Evie to learn that from us. And I'm like she's eight and I was a youth pastor and I know that kids are being exposed to things younger and younger. But part of me is avoidant and wanting to not have to deal with that and like we'll deal with that if it comes up and she's like no, I want her to hear about it from us. I want her to trust us and know that she can talk to us about it. And it's not that I disagree with her, it's just that I I avoid that and and step away from that where she runs towards it and and there's typically some tension and her calling me up and me not wanting to be called up and um yeah, yeah, and I, I hear the and with like.
Speaker 2:There there's this beauty of um. You know, most tensions are a paradox in regards to like. You have, like the quote unquote it's not a big deal and her quote unquote is it's a big deal, right, there's a paradox between those and it's easy to go to. The one who thinks it is a big deal is going to have the stronger voice because there's going to be fear behind it, and the one who thinks it's not a big deal is, you know, going to tend to want to postpone considering it's a big deal and then, all of a sudden, it can be a big deal and it's like oh no.
Speaker 2:The proactive versus reactive makes a lot of sense and I think there's value in how both of you see it. There's the end with like there's parts of what you see that it's probably not as big a deal as her fears want to tell her it is. It's probably not as big a deal as her fears want to tell her it is, and there's also parts of it being a bigger deal than you want to see it, as is reality. So we're in that kind of a conversation, proactive versus reactive, and that's a helpful example. Where do you tend to check out? Or let's go back to when it was two out of eight or two out of 10 times what? Where would you start checking out? Or what would tell you retreat?
Speaker 3:Um, I think that goes into. Another big one for us is that I'm not doing enough, or the story that I believe is that I'm not doing enough. Um, it would be Caitlin coming to me and saying like hey, I have a concern about this, I think you should talk to Evie about it. And then I get defensive of like oh, so you don't think I'm doing enough, or and then my my attack is like it's not really that big of a deal, like and so. And then in that I'm like well then, why don't you just do it? You know, and with Evie it's easy. I'm like she's the daughter, you talk to the daughter, I'll deal with the boys when the boys come along, and they're coming along, and so we gotta I gotta be figuring that out.
Speaker 2:But you give yourself three times the job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm like you do it with the one.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think that would be the initial retreat of I get defensive and like you should be doing more you. That's her pro. That's a narrative that we're listening for. So what I heard in what you just said is you, in the conversations, your confirmation bias is listening for. I'm not enough.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And the moment you hear that, then what? What happens? Then I try to downplay it. Okay, like that it's not that I haven't thought about it, because it's not that big of a deal to almost justify why I haven't done anything about it. Does that make?
Speaker 2:sense of I'm not enough, then you go to let me prove to you that I am enough. And the way I can prove to you that I am enough is to help you see that this isn't as big a deal as you think it is. So I'm enough for the size of deal that it is or something like that.
Speaker 3:Sure, sure yeah.
Speaker 2:So if I can make the deal smaller, then you can see that what I've done is enough.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:That size deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, to justify it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, makes sense. And I relate to that in my own life because my story can go to I'm too much. That's what I tend to listen for is I'm too much, so then I can do a similar thing in that. So what do you think I can do a similar thing in that? So what do you think? Well, I don't want to go too fast.
Speaker 2:What do you think, in listening for that, in conversations with Caitlin that was driving the retreating from the tension? Because, just for context, for those of you listening, if you've been listening for any length of time, you've probably heard me say about a thousand times that tension is a gift. Tension is where we want to be. So when you eight out of two, 10 times, you're pulling away from the tension, how would you articulate what that's robbed you of? And obviously you still do it 10 out, two out of 10 times. So you still do it 10 out, 2 out of 10 times. So you still do it. So what does it rob you of when you retreat or, um, choose to avoid curiosity and the tension?
Speaker 3:I think the biggest thing that it robs me of is connection with Caitlin. Um, you know, and even even to the extent of intimacy with Caitlin to now, you know, when I'm in the eight out of 10 times staying curious versus getting defensive or retreating, there's a, an appreciation of like, oh, I haven't thought about this, oh, I didn't look at it this way, or you're seeing something that I'm not seeing. I should look at that and like what a gift that is and how helpful that is makes me appreciate. My wife makes me, you know, grateful that she is thinking about these things, or, you know, bringing it to my attention. And so, yeah, I think about the the times that that I do retreat or get defensive, like what have I missed or what have I made, like her feel dumb about? You know, for lack of a better term that she's freaking out over nothing. This isn't a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, there's, there's some. I want to slow that down because I think, as a listener and even in my own story, like when I would retreat cause that was a common thing that I would do. I would, I would run. I was known as a runner in the context of conflict, where if there's tension, I'm running and retreating or stonewalling is another form of of that. But I think it felt hopeless right when, when it felt like I was being told I was too much. Or for Jeff, when he felt he was being told he, like I was being told I was too much. Or for Jeff, when he felt he was being told he, when he was hearing I'm not enough. It feels hopeless.
Speaker 2:And then you say what you're missing out on is connection. Like it feels in that moment, like connection is the last thing that's available. If I keep staying in this tension, it feels like I'm going to, like I could actually blow this thing up and we might never recover if I don't step out of this tension. That feels like it's going to explode. So can you articulate any aspects of like? What helped you start staying in it? Well, did you feel that way? Did you feel like you were helping the situation by retreating, so let's start there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just while you were speaking, the thought that came to mind is you know, my, my wife is a, a master debater, you know, and, and she comes to the discussion with her points and her point of view and is clear and concise. And I think that was my initial retreat of like. I can't defend myself, like I don't even know what to say, like that If I, if I was prepared or had a stance at all, like I would defend, but typically it's like I don't even know what I think about this, you know, and so that would be the initiation of the retreat of like. Let me go and think about this almost, and so, yeah, does that answer?
Speaker 2:So good, I know I hear you are saying exactly the things that Jeff would say. That is going to resonate for a lot of people. So what did you do? Like what? What shifted?
Speaker 3:Yeah, again, it's not every time. I think, viewing my wife as a resource and a gift and the tension as a gift, you know, so often the tension was the thing that I was running from. It's not like I was running from Caitlin, it was the uncomfortableness of like I don't know what I think. She really knows what she thinks. So either I just agree with her and like we move on, or I defend and like could look stupid, cause it's, it doesn't live up to the debate. And so I think, yeah, really focusing that that it's a gift, attention's a gift, her opinion is a gift.
Speaker 3:And then I think me being very clear with my requests of what this conversation can look like. Um, that that I can be honest in. Hey, I feel like you're telling me what to do versus this being a discussion. Um, I feel like you're expecting me to have the same opinion. Can you ask me if that's what I think? Like just just toning the conversation down, cause she can come in hot and heavy of like oh my gosh, you should read this article. Kids are looking at pornography. Like we've got to fix this right now, and I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa. Like pump the brakes you have to calm, to her chaos.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly Sometimes.
Speaker 2:And likewise she can be the calm tea, a different type, but yeah. Yes, yes type but yeah, yes, yes, yeah. How do you do you feel like? Is there anything for you that you feel breakthrough was a part of what helped you get to that piece of being able to see her as a resource and be able to set the vision for what you were hoping or wanting in the conversation, in the conversation, in the years you've been coming to Breakthrough. Do you feel like any of that helped?
Speaker 3:birth. That, yeah, you know it's interesting, I think I don't know if it's. I think it's a human thing, I don't think it's a male or female. I think we tend to focus on the negative, and so, in coaching in particular, like my focus has been breaking the negative stories, um, or what I view as negative. You know that I'm reactive or I'm not proactive. You know, like I should be proactive, um, and so really wanting to like open that up and be like is that true? Is it bad that I'm not proactive? Like should I be react? Should I be proactive? Things like that.
Speaker 3:And at this most recent breakthrough, I feel like we are really cracking open stories that we have that we view as positive, like is it true that your family does it better than my family? You know, like these things that we have just gone with because we both agree with them and we think they're right, um, quote, unquote, right, um, that's like well, we should really revisit that. Like we've just assumed that that's how it should be done. Have we asked each other? Do we really think that? What else could it look like? And so I feel like there's a lot more curiosity in those conversations, not just on my side, but but inviting Caitlin into that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, as a guy, how would you describe breakthrough to a guy whose wife is like, hey, there's this marriage retreat we need to go like, uh, you know, obviously you were in the birthing process of me sharing the vision with you and all of that before it even began. But, um, like what do you think? A lot of guys fear that it is versus. How would you describe what it is?
Speaker 3:Sure, I make up that there is fear and feelings, that there is an opportunity to explore feelings at breakthrough, like I mean, the whole thing is an opportunity you get to choose how you show up in it. I mean the whole thing is an opportunity you get to choose how you show up in it. And so when I'm inviting people who haven't experienced it, especially guys that I'm talking to, I say, like there's potential that it's going to be uncomfortable, but like when you're at the gym lifting weights, like if it's not uncomfortable, it's like, are you really doing anything you know? Like and that seems to resonate with some guys, some more than others but like, or anything we do anything at work, like there is some discomfort, and so I'm inviting you into that discomfort to look at something with curious eyes, like hey, could there be something else there? And I think the way that you have set it up around a specific tension, because I think for guys we can go big picture and like then it just gets overwhelming and it's like, no, we're talking about you know, me and you parenting the kids, you know. Or me and you finances for family vacations, like that's all we want to look at, like, don't bring in your parents, don't bring in the kids, like whatever. It is like we're really specifically looking at this one tension. And then the way the tools and resources that you put forth, I'm like it's very practical. I think that's big for guys that it needs to be practical, like there are clear resources that are available to utilize, not just on that weekend but to take home. And again, it's what we explain.
Speaker 3:The school, as you know, kids here learning to read and write and do math, like that's great, I'm all about that, but they're practicing on how to be human. You know, we, we have conversations constantly, daily, um, and I tell parents like they're just practicing having conversations, they're practicing agreeing and disagreeing with each other. They're practicing listening with an open mind and, um, that's what I view breakthrough as like that's the practice. And then you have a coach there through through you who's like, hey, this is what I hear you saying. Is that what you mean? You know, what else could she be interpreting? That, as you know, and so just getting feedback in the moment is really powerful.
Speaker 3:Um, but yeah, I think that's the gift of breakthrough. Is that you, you remove yourself from everyday life, you know. So the kids aren't there, the work's not there. You, you're in a beautiful place, obviously at the farm, big Spring Farm, and then having the resources to really work through one specific tension, like that's your practice point, and then it's like, okay, that worked there. What does that look like in, you know, finances? Or what does that look like in parenting, or what?
Speaker 2:does that look like in our sex life, you know, or whatever? It is like nothing's off topic at breakthrough. You did to break through there. You can break through any tension that you have. And so I keep coming back to the statement that you said about how could my wife be a resource to me? What might she see that I might be missing? And that you know when, as humans, we're always listening for something and, by nature, we're listening for these limiting beliefs of I'm not enough or I'm too much, or I'm not worthy or whatever. So to begin to listen, for how might my spouse be a resource that makes so much sense to me? What's connecting the dots for how you're staying in eight out of 10 tensions?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so I just want to see if there's anything else in that that comes up for you, in how you can articulate what brought you to the gift of seeing Caitlin as a resource versus the best defense attorney that knew more than you did and had the ability to articulate what she was thinking and feeling in a way. You didn't Anything else about that that you can help bridge the gap between she. I can't win any battle with her. I can't win any fight with her and you know, I don't even know what I think or feel to. Maybe my wife sees something I don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think it goes to the concept that you taught us of being in our own backyard, which we can explain just handling what only I can handle with myself. You know, like staying in my backyard is what I can manage and I don't need to be going into Caitlin's backyard and saying like well, you're being mean or you're not even giving me a chance to think. For me, it's more awareness of my patterns and specifically like within my body, body, like I can feel now and notice and recognize when I'm getting defensive and I can pause myself and be like Whoa, what's? Why am I getting defensive right now? Like what is? Do I agree with her? And I don't want to agree with her? Do I disagree with her? And I need to tell her that? Um and so, yeah, it's really this awareness, I think, is what I've been noticing, at least recently, of like hey, you're getting defensive. Why are you getting defensive? Like what if she's right? What if there's something you don't see there? And like that's me working in my own backyard.
Speaker 3:Of like processing through, you know, if it's not about you being right or about you looking good or feeling like you didn't do something wrong, like what else could it be? What else could be there. And that shows up in work too. You know, I have we don't have teachers, we have guides, and I have a guide asking me a question and I make up like, oh, they think I missed something or they think I didn't do enough or that I should have done this.
Speaker 3:And and then, like I come into that conversation defensive and it's like like I, my stomach is where I feel it, like I feel my, my abs tighten up and it's like, oh, like I kind of hold my breath a little bit. Um, and yeah, it's. I mean, it has taken years of coaching to recognize that. I don't know if it I could be slow. Um, I think you know just at hearing that even you may recognize that in your own life of there are patterns that we do or ways that our body responds that can be clues into like hey, what am I up to, what am I doing right now? And I know that for sure. And so if I can turn the defensiveness down and not run away, then I can sit in it and be curious.
Speaker 2:So so good. Yeah, transformation begins with having our nature more than it has us. So when you're talking about that solar plex, I think is the area of your body, your abs, that's known as the solar plex. So when the solar plex tightens, it's a fight or flight response and so the body immediately triggers into defensiveness. But you're having your nature, you're getting familiar with your nature and you're saying, okay, I feel you panic mode, I feel you defense reaction.
Speaker 2:Is this accurate in this situation? Is my wife really the tiger jumping out to get me? Is she really, you know, going to bulldoze me over what might be going on for me? What is it that I need? Who is it that I want to be in this conversation? How, what might there be for me to learn and when you can begin to recognize because by nature, our bodies respond so quickly. Right, that solar plex tightens before you have any awareness of what you're even thinking and it starts tightening If you don't clue in there. It's immediately going to throw you into defensive reaction, which is shut down. Retreat makes sense, but if you can notice it and pause and be with it, you can actually investigate it and start listening for something much more valuable, which is I want to connect with my wife. I want to partner with my wife. What if she sees something I don't? How can I show up in questioning and in the vision of what I want with her?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That makes. That lays out how you went from two to 10 to eight, to 10 times of staying in a conversation.
Speaker 3:Right and I think I think another big piece of it is, I think, twofold the ability and the willingness to share that with Caitlin, Like again staying in my backyard vulnerability, vulnerability, saying like, hey, I feel I'm getting defensive right now, like I don't want to show up defensive in this conversation, and again, like that's not me, looking in her backyard, saying like, hey, you seem really defensive, you know, like, can you chill out? But like owning, like I'm feeling this. I don't know why I feel this, you know, and then we can investigate that it may be because I feel like you're saying I'm not enough, which we've had that conversation before but, yeah, cause, then that gives her, you know, because I yeah, I don't know, I'm not finishing sentences You're doing great, this is great. Yeah, it's so interesting to think about the defensiveness and the fighting, like when I feel like I am able to go into an argument and try to win, like it never ends well, you know.
Speaker 3:And so to go in and be like, hey, this is what I'm feeling in this moment. I either need to take 10 minutes and calm down, or, like I need you to know that this is what I'm experiencing right now and if I lash out or do something that you view as defensive, will you say, hey, that seems defensive to me. Um, I don't know, I think that's another big piece. She and I have gotten really big uh at communicating honestly with each other, whereas before we kind of tiptoed around like, um, oh, she seems pretty angry, like I won't ask her right now or I don't know. I think that's the whole gift of vision, or attention is a gift you know, like then avoiding it and so so, so okay, If you start recognizing she seems angry.
Speaker 2:What does curiosity look like in that? How do you? What does honesty look like in that?
Speaker 3:That's probably the two, the two times that I don't do it. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting because there's a fear component of it, like if she's mad specifically mad at me, that's, that's really not fun, but like if she's mad at somebody else the swim coach, you know, or something you know and comes to me in attention and it's tricky. I don't know, I don't think I figured it out like how to invite her into curiosity in the midst of her anger. Um, and she's not this angry. I don't want it to come off as like she's listening. Um, yeah, it is. It is interesting to think through how I show up in that. Um, I don't know if I have a good answer right now. That's a good one.
Speaker 2:Well, for those listening and for you. One of the things that I have found is helpful because I can assume for me when I feel Jeff going to shame, that's a trigger for me, because usually when he goes to shame, that's when he retreats. I've done something wrong or I'm not enough. He tends to go to shame and he can shut down like Fort Knox and then I go back to feeling very lonely. So one of the things that we've been using a lot which I know you're familiar with, michael is the where are you? When I start, my body starts telling me oh, something's going on over there and that's going to you're going to wind up paying a big price for that later. Then I will just check in Like can you tell me where you are? What are you feeling right now? And often what he's feeling blows my mind, cause I'm like I was sure he was feeling shame or anger or whatever, and I find out like, oh, wow, that's not at all what was going on for him. And then we connect through that.
Speaker 3:Or you're scared of something. There's fear there. It's like oh, I didn't know you were afraid of something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, Exactly so. That's just one little idea of something to say in that moment when we fear our spouse is going to a certain place, or judging that they're going to a certain place. Just curiosity. Again, Ask a question when are you? And where are you? Is the term of like in the eight main emotions of hurt, sad, lonely, anger, fear, shame, guilt, glad. Where are you? Where in the world of that, of those feelings are you? Because having your nature more than it has you it starts usually will feel more than we can articulate where we're actually at in our thoughts or our beliefs. If we can just start with locating what am I feeling that brings us into our nature, and and often our spouse can be a resource of helping us discover what we didn't even know was going on for us.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, and I think you know you and I have talked about that a lot. I pulled up that, that picture of shame and cause. When I feel it in my stomach, it's like what is that, you know? Like, and I think there's probably some fear and some shame there, especially when it's around something that I don't feel perfect prepared for, and the impaired state of shame is inadequacy, like that's me not being enough, like that's what I go to often, but then in the gift side of things like the humility to show up and be like hey, I don't know this, like thank you for noticing this, you know, or yeah, it's really powerful.
Speaker 2:It's a really powerful analogy to see a husband and wife, like you know, back to back 360 view of the world, 360 view of our day-to-day interactions and the obstacles that are coming at us, and to really feel that partnership of man. We are united in this and if we can support each other that way and see each other as a huge resource man, the level of intimacy and connection is endless and curiosity is one of the main roads to that. So, michael, this has been valuable for me. I am walking out of this excited to share some things I'm discovering with Jeff. In you and I's conversation today that helped reveal some things for me and I am really hopeful that that will be the same experience for the listeners. So thank you so much for sharing your journey and the beauty of what's opening up through curiosity for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no. Thank you for all the work you do. It's transformed our life, for sure.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much and I look forward to connecting with you again soon, soon.