Hey Julia Woods
Join me, Julia Woods, a couples coach and wife of over 3 decades, as I share some of my client's stories and my own so that you can be encouraged, inspired, and gain new results in your marriage.
Hey Julia Woods
Ever-Present Tension Was Robbing Our Connection
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Most marriages don't unravel because of one major conflict; they slowly drift apart through avoidance, unresolved tension, and the stories we tell ourselves about our partner. In this episode, we explore how confirmation bias, emotional triggers, and taking personal responsibility can transform conflict from something that divides us into something that deepens connection.
If you want healthier conversations, faster repair, and a stronger relationship, this episode is for you.
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Welcome And The Couple’s Story
SPEAKER_04Welcome to Hey Julia Woods Podcast. I'm your host, Julia Woods, founder of Beautiful Outcome, a coaching company focused on helping couples learn to see and understand each other, even in the most difficult conversations. On my podcast, I will share with you the real and raw of the messiness and amazingness of marriage. I'll share with you aspects of my relationships and the couples I coach in a way that you can see yourself and find the tools that you need to build the marriage you long for. And they've been married 11 years and have two kids under five. And I'm excited for you to hear their transformation story. Hey, David and Catherine, thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_00Hey, thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_04Thanks. Yes. So you guys have come to Breakthrough three times? Twice. Twice. Okay. Coming, coming a third time next year. So um I want to just take a little bit of time and just connect with you and hear more about kind of what brought you to come to Breakthrough and what that experience is like and ultimately what are the results, which is massive. We were just talking before we started recording about you guys' um results and how conflicts pretty much were reoccurring week after week, um, ongoing, pretending like they were um you had kind of that the tension wasn't there, but in reality it was there. And to the point now where you're able to work through tensions when they arise or shortly from within a short distance from the time they
The Cycle Of Avoided Conflict
SPEAKER_04arrived. Is can you tell us more about um what that was like when the conversations were just continuing on and on?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I think for us originally, um, when things would come up, it would come up uh just kind of bubble up in a conversation, a recurring conflict, a recurring issue that we were navigating, and um, or tension or frustration with each other that was kind of recurring. And, you know, everybody has the same patterns that keep coming up. And instead of being able to step into it and try to understand what was actually going on, it was a lot easier for us to just get frustrated or you know, shut up and then just keep going about life or just kind of go to sleep and wake up the next day and pretend like nothing had ever happened. But what it led to was just regular recurring kind of simmering tension within the relationship that just uh kept us from being able to actually have the relationship that you would hope for, right? And so I think it was um, and none of it was ever, you know, massive or bad. It wasn't like we wouldn't talk to each other for days, or you know, there were times where it was harder for sure, and there was times where we were way more frustrated with the other. Um, but we would just kind of pretend like it didn't happen, but then never talk about it. Just kind of like it, it, you know, oh, we're not gonna touch that with a 10-foot pole. We're just gonna kind of pretend and skirt around it. But what that steals you of was so much, I don't know, just relationship, so much intimacy and friendship and all the other things that come with it. Um, with that kind of simmering tension that would take, yeah, days, weeks. Eventually, one of us would kind of come with an apology or or something and we'd kind of work through it. Um, but it yeah, it was just so hard to not know where to go when that would happen. It was just kind of like, all right, well, I guess we're just gonna keep going with life and I don't know, maybe it'll sort itself out later.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What was that like for you, Catherine?
Hot Topics And Hidden Loneliness
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um we both kind of came to know what the what the hot topics were and if it needed to be brought up for some reason, like you know, some something was taking place, you know, in the near fut like I don't know, I'm thinking of maybe like holiday, like family holidays or whatever um that we knew um created tension in us. Uh we would just, yeah, we would avoid talking about it until the last possible moment of needing to make a decision. Um, and we would be the same people we were last time we talked about it. And um it was yeah, it was not it was not only frustrating, but I think it just it started to um what felt like a safe retreat in the moment of avoiding the conflict ended up just creating so much like loneliness. I'll speak for myself, like loneliness and sadness about like um why can't why can't we ever work through this? And I guess if we can't work through it together, then I guess I'm on my own in it. Um, and then like yeah, just long longing for like a different different kind of relationship with you. Um yeah, so I think um not touching it with a 10-foot pole always reminds me of like the song from the Grinch of like Um I wouldn't touch you with a 39 and a half foot pole. And that's what I felt like with some of these issues of just like with like let's keep it over there, like in the corner um for as long as possible, and just hoping it would go away.
SPEAKER_00But and it would be little issues like you know, family holidays and how much time are we spending here or there or whatever, to I mean, huge huge conversation things like what are we doing about work and what are we doing about childcare, and what are we doing about um, you know, our budget and where what we were doing about certain choices for house things or whatever. Um, and so when those become the things that you don't want to touch with a 39 and a half foot pole, then you're just kinda, you know, it was like we were just continually being frustrated with the other person that they didn't see it our way. And when you do that, you could quickly other the other person, like make them the enemy, for example, or make them the opposition. Um and yeah, we were just, you know, obviously not every day, but it was so frequent that that was the case on especially those tensions um or or or you know, conflicts, or they weren't even you know just topics that we needed to to navigate together that we just couldn't and continually felt stuck in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
When Small Fights Mean Something Bigger
SPEAKER_04And I imagine over time, uh I know I experienced this in my marriage and have worked with many couples who experienced the same. Over time, um, were the amount of topics you couldn't touch, didn't want to touch with a 39.5 foot wall growing, like there was they were accumulating. So there was less you could talk about. Were you experiencing that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so. And I mean it ended up, you know, um it would turn into things about like frustration about the dishes being left in the sink. And then it was like, well, we both know that this is not really about the dishes in the sink. It's about this like other thing that has been simmering on the back burner, and the dishes in the sink is like yet another piece of evidence for me that you know, this other thing. Um, and so it was yeah, it it became it became that way sort of because it would it would just seep into all the other areas, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um yeah, and I think that there's power in what you were saying earlier, Catherine, is that you know, um it's that you were avoiding, you were procrastinating, you were pushing off, you were blaming each other. And what happens over time in that is now your partner becomes the enemy. And you begin to use each interaction, each conflict to grab evidence about what you've decided is true about your spouse and your relationship, and what is or isn't possible and what you think is is wrong and shouldn't be the way that it is. Is that resonate for what was happening?
SPEAKER_00Deeply, yes. Um, yeah, I think uh uh the more we've you know we've gone to breakthrough and work through kind of learning some of the what's at play. I I think you use the phrase of like what's happening or or what's at play is um the idea of the confirmation bias and how how much I can exactly what you're saying, tell myself all the evidence that I'm trying to stack up against the other person, um, but subconsciously. And so I don't think I realized, but over that whole time, it was every time you know Catherine did blank, it was another nail in this coffin that I'm preparing that I just continually are able to put um her into. And that just is so unempathetic and so um I don't know, the more I say it out loud, the more like this is terrible. Like, of course I'm gonna be setting her up for failure in that because I'm just waiting to catch the next act that's gonna prove that I am right. And I think if I had sat down and was really honest, maybe I would have been able to get there, but I don't think so. I think it was more listening to other people navigating that that was really helpful to think, oh my gosh, they're doing oh wait, that's also that's me. Yeah, I'm doing the same. Okay, cool, cool.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that's one of people's favorite things about breakthrough is it's so much easier to see our stuff in someone else rather than ourselves. But I want to go back here. So you guys were in this experience of um, you know, conflicts never really getting resolved. Apology kind of rushed over the surface of like, okay, I think we're done, but in real or I think we worked through that, but in reality, it just gets shoved under the rug and then comes up the next time the topic is touched. And so you decided to come to breakthrough.
What They Expected From Breakthrough
SPEAKER_04And when you came to breakthrough, what what were you anticipating what would happen? Like, what did you think? Did you think you were the problem? Did you think your spouse was the problem? What were you anticipating?
SPEAKER_02Um well, I I remember I remember driving to driving to breakthrough. We we had a couple of friends who had been before and had spoken really highly of the experience, but um, but we hadn't really taken the time to like get in the weeds about like exactly what the experience was. So we were on the way there and um and our friends reached out and were like, hope you guys have a great weekend. And I remember like looking at David in the car and being like, Yeah, but like I don't what what what are we what are what is this that we're going to? Like, um yeah, I feel like I was inclined to call it a retreat beforehand. And then afterwards I was like, it's it's like a it's a workshop. It is like you spend the whole time working through your own your own inner thoughts um and being honest about them. But yeah, I think we I don't think we really knew like what we were in for, but I think we had seen we had seen and heard results from people who had experienced it, um, who we trusted and um yeah, and were like, you know, e eager to taste what what they were experiencing.
SPEAKER_00So and what Catherine is not saying is that I was the um I'm not gonna say the self-deprecating word, but uh an interesting husband who gifted a weekend at breakthrough for her birthday, um, thinking that she would love the idea that I was saying, let's invest in this weekend and our marriage and you know, probably flowers and a nice date out would have been a better choice. But in the end, it was great as we were um pulling in. Yeah, I I didn't really know what to expect either, even though um I was kind of the one who had initially uh signed us up for it. Um and yeah, I think similarly, like I thought it maybe was more retreat-ish, but like sit, listen to a seminar, be like, oh, that was such good information, and go to sleep at night feeling better about ourselves, right? And um that's not quite the case, but in the best way possible, it was the kind of opposite of that, which is your active engagement and just like how quickly you're taking things that you're learning and observing and trying to work through them together as a couple. Um, that was really transformable. I I sort of went off topic there on what to expect beforehand, but yeah, it was a funny juxtaposition from what I thought it was gonna be.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I'll just add to that anecdote too that I yeah, it was an issue. It's like the wife being given the vacuum cleaner for Christmas of like, you're like, really? But um, but at the same time, I think we both knew that we weren't in a great place. We were coming up on our 10-year anniversary, and we're just yeah, we were we were longing for like a relationship and a life that um we didn't have presently with each other. And um, and I would have said before all of this that if anyone was gonna sign us up for a marriage retreat, it would have been me. And so, in some ways, it it really did feel loving for David to like approach it, um, as funny as it sounds, because it it also showed me that he cared and was like willing to willing to do the work too. Um so yeah, but I I I mean that was in like October and we didn't go until April. So I do feel like those six months in between, every time we had attention, we were like, we'll just work through it when we get there. Like we'll just do it, we'll do it later.
Owning Your Part In Tension
SPEAKER_04So, as you guys have uh attended several years, and um what have you really discovered about yourself? Like, you know, at the beginning of the workshop, I jokingly uh tell people I have good news and bad news. I ask people how many of you came here hoping your spouse would change? And uh we talk through that I have good news and bad news, your spouse isn't gonna change, and neither are you, but you can transform how you relate to what is currently creating the defensive reactions and those things, and then the defensive reactions will go away. So, what did you what have you each uh recognized as was your biggest contribution to what wasn't working um in the way you were work talking through tensions and trying to resolve conflicts?
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, I think you you you introduced this language to us um in the form of a question, but uh asking us like what are you up to when tension shows up? And I think at the beginning I I didn't realize I was up to anything. Like and yeah, I mean it was really I mean it was exactly what you said. It was like the problem is David, like I'm I'm not up to anything here. Like I'm just yeah, I'm just like the the innocent bystander in these conversations. So I discovered I was up, I was I'm always up to something. There's no not being up to something, and that's just that's just humans. Like we are we we are never not up to something. Um so yeah, I learned that I learned that I have this really strong tendency to um to like retreat and avoid um conflict. Um and yeah, also that I I like playing the victim. Like I think one of the early exercises we did in that first weekend was talking about what are the benefits of being a victim, which um feels like yeah, of course, when you hear it initially, you're like, oh, be being a victim is the bad thing. Like, but um, but we tell ourselves that if if you know we are the ones that are um the you know pain is being inflicted upon, like what, yeah, what what good it like I am I I'm I'm at the bottom, right? And but in the end, like it, you know, it makes me feel like um I'm in control. I get to blame someone else for for everything that comes up. Um yeah, so I just I learned like how how much I had adopted that mentality internally. Um, and retreating and like avoiding conflict was a way for for me to keep playing that that role. Like um I didn't I wouldn't give David a chance to rectify it, you know. I was like, like I'm just gonna I'm gonna stay being like the the you know victim in all these conflicts, and I'm not gonna give you a chance to prove otherwise, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and just to connect into that, like yeah, I resonate when I first started learning about the victim mindset and that it was default in our DNA as human beings, that the moment something isn't going the way we want it to go, we look for someone or something to blame. And it's it's not easy to see in ourselves, but once we see it, we can't unsee it. And it makes such a difference to really begin to look at where we give away our power and where we decide that we're stuck rather than taking responsibility for what we contributed to where I'm stuck or what's not working in this
Confirmation Bias And New Options
SPEAKER_04conversation. And so um, yeah, growing a responsibility mindset, it is it takes a a lot of commitment and a lot of willingness, humility. It takes a lot of humility.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think for me, um just the confirmation bias and that I was setting Catherine up for failure. So the dishes in the sink was I was almost like waiting, just just leave one more dish in here so I can tell myself, see, she doesn't care that I work from home and have to clean up whenever this happens scenario, right? Which wasn't that frequently, and she does care, shocker. But it was just this mentality of building up this case against her. And one thing that I think really helped from the breakthrough retreats plural has been what could be more true. In other words, yep, she might, she might, she might just not care that you work from home and have to look at the messy kitchen all day. That's an exaggeration, it's not that messy. Or she might be caring for our kids that are two under five and helping get us out the door and also juggling getting her stuff together, and also probably helping with something that I forgot to do that morning, right? And so it is this mindset of instead the confirmation bias, the ability to keep telling myself what I want, you know, what I think is true and building a case in support of that. It just leads to more bitterness and more putting the other person in a box and just this brooding kind of bitterness of the other person, the the othering, as we were saying earlier, as opposed to considering other possibilities and generating empathy of, well, she might be doing it two minutes later once she's done caring for the kid who's grabbing at her pant leg saying, I need this, I need this. And I was never giving her a chance to ever do that later. And oh, yeah, she has told me before that she understands and wants to help me in having a household ready for working from home type scenario. Like all those things that are true about her actually caring for me and wanting what's best for me could so quickly go out the window, and breakthrough has kind of helped me pause and think through what are what could be more true in this moment and help me be able to rebound from that built-up pattern of um confirming my you know uh assumptions about her into considering more the reality, what is more true. And then that breeds more empathy, an ability to rebound faster, an ability to navigate conversation quicker. And even if it's a you know, three days and the kitchen has been dirty. This is a dumb example, by the way, but it's helping with the whole point. But three days in a row, instead of me building a case in and exploding after three days of bitterness, it allows me just to ask a question and be curious and not just write her off until I explode out of frustration or whatever, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes. You you always have a um a a good like statistic in your back pocket about confirmation bias that I'm forgetting. Um can you can you remind me?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, basically, as human beings, scientists have estimated that we take in two to four million bits of information every second, but the confirmation bias deletes, distorts, and generalizes that down to 139,000 bits. So we're taking in, we're actually processing less than half to 1% of what we're actually taking in. And it's not by chance what information it gives us. It gives us what we want to hear. It gives us what goes along with our strongest beliefs. So if I believe I'm alone in life and others don't care about me, I will then delete, as David was describing, anything that could represent my spouse actually cares. And only the confirmation bias will only give me what goes along, gives me the evidence to say, see, she doesn't care.
What Avoidance Steals From Love
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So what was this robbing you guys of? Like what were you what was happening in your interactions and in the times that were could be beautiful connections? And how was this impacting that?
SPEAKER_00I would say we just very superficial connections. Um, the ability to be deep, the ability to um, you know, be emotionally connected and emotionally intimate with each other, of like actually understanding the other person, empathizing and um being able to be there for the other person, or really just dig into hard things and joyful things and all the things in between without this layer of simmered kind of tension being ever present and not always per se, but frequent. And so I think that's really it was robbing of that like depth of relationship and ability to to kind of go in without the defenses coming up quickly.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And what would you say, Catherine? Any different than that?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think uh what yeah, I was thinking about this earlier because that this question of like what is all what are these choices robbing you of is something that has resonated each time it breakthrough as well. Um I have I put in David's wedding band when we got married that um you are my beloved and my friend. And I think that um what this was robbing us of was like the yeah, the the the love and the intimacy that I really longed for and like the f the like genuine friendship. Like we were friends for years before we had any kind of romantic relationship, and um, it was such a firm foundation to to our marriage. Um and yeah, over time it just felt like we had become um, you know, annoying roommates to each other in a lot of ways, of like, you know, I don't like the way you do X and I don't like the way you do Y. And um Yeah, and it felt like yeah, it felt like I was missing the like companionship um that we had. So, and it's funny, like, I think something else that came up at Breakthrough too was thinking about like how much more how much more grace and empathy do we have for our actual friends over our spouses sometimes. Like, um, it's so easy for us to create them in our minds as a villain over time, um, when enough tension has arisen. Um, that yeah, I was I was I was not extending even the even the same grace I would have for for um for a friend um to him.
SPEAKER_00And the last thing I'll say very quickly is it's not like that never happens. It's not like we never end up in attention since this, but what's been really cool is the ability to recover and step through and understand what's actually going on, what's actually at play a little bit better, considering what those other truths and other realities might be, and getting back to that relational depth that we have before the tension. I mean, I would say as opposed to a matter of days, weeks where it's going on to a matter of that evening in the moment, or you know, within quickly the the next day or later that night of both of us really being able to step away and work through what's actually going on that we were unable to really name and understand prior to kind of walking through breakthrough and understanding that relational dynamic that we have together and why we default to these patterns. And so that has been really helpful is not that it never happens anymore, but also being able to rebound a lot quicker and be back to the depth and relationship uh that we long for too.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and that's huge. I mean, that's really that that makes a world of difference, moving from an underlying consistent tension that you're trying to pretend isn't there to actually being able to break through these tensions in a way that you you're you're in deeper connection.
Faster Repair And Deeper Days
SPEAKER_04What difference is that making for both of you in in your relationship and in life overall?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I've I've picked up brought so many of these tools and questions to like other aspects of my life now. Um and yeah, sort of taking responsibility for for what I'm contributing in a lot of ways. Um but yeah, I would say I I'm catch catching myself in the gutter faster. Um like, and by being in the gutter, I mean, I mean, when we're in attention, I can all of a sudden discover that I'm uh I'm I'm pointing us to like the conversation ending without resolution over like actually trying to resolve the conflict. So I can catch myself in that a lot faster. And um it's not necessarily easier to like pull myself out of it, but it's um, I think even just being able to have the visibility of it, it's like in my head, it's it's like a camera that's zoomed in and so focused on this little thing. And I I have the ability now to like zoom out um and see and see myself in it. Um in a way that I like net never was able to before.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, that's powerful. I think switch shifting from pride to humility.
SPEAKER_00It's easy, no big deal.
SPEAKER_04It's never really comfortable, yet you see the re the rewards that the humility brings begin to make it more um worth it, right?
SPEAKER_02It's the little bit of it's produced like yeah, more, I think more on it more honesty. Like I'm I'm willing to be more honest about what's going on. I'm willing to be more vulnerable too about like sharing the thing that feels hard to share. Um it's producing like more empathy, like when I am actually able to put my stuff down for a minute and be curious about what's happening with David. Um it's like he it's like the the like vic cloak of the victim like falls off and I can like see him again for who he really is and what his heart is.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, all of those things.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, and I think um gosh, it just brings so many more joyful relational days that in the past I think could just be fine roommate type days where if we're in this tension, well, we we can put up with each other, we can parent together still with our kids and go through the days, but not have the same level of joy and um relational dynamic that is a whole reason why we're married, right? That's fun. We love each other. It's this connection that we crave and long for. And so I think a lot more of the days where that's present and real and it's now the norm instead of you know the the tension also cutting in and being the norm, um, kind of overshadowing that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Powerful. Yeah. And I mean, when you can really take personal responsibility, because ultimately breakthrough is a workshop to develop the leadership in each spouse to be able to lead each conversation to deeper connection and possibility. And when you can develop that leadership in yourself one conversation at a time, the marriage just gets stronger and richer, and the connection can just keep deepening. And yet, when we let tensions just keep going, the relationship gets shallower and um more frustrating and less connected. And so it's powerful the two very distinct different directions a relationship can go. Um when you begin to take responsibility for what you're contributing. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think on the on that note too, I think um the word like commitment means something so much different than it did to me before. I was um such a good like um uh what's the like um trying to keep score of like the commit commitments that I thought David was like not following through on. And I think um break through like gave gave me the tools to be able to like hold myself accountable to those things and also like understand the value of it. Um like it's imp it's empowering when when you realize um realize what what you do actually have control over um in the conversation and to um and to be able to like yeah, what watch yourself do the hard work of like keeping keeping a commitment to to somebody. Um yeah, so yeah.
Go All In On The Work
SPEAKER_04Anything, any last words you would share with someone who's contemplating or thinking about coming to breakthrough?
SPEAKER_00I think the only one is um one that I was telling friends about recently um who are going, which is, you know, obviously it's well worth it and and giving you a tool belt to be able to work through and work with. Um, but also like highly recommend doing it, and not just highly recommend doing it, but highly recommend doing it all in. That was something we were given as some advice, kind of going in is don't just kind of sit back and think you're gonna take some notes and go home and be done with it, right? Be all in on it because the more you invest in it, the more you will get out of it, and the more you kind of are willing to own your piece, like you were talking about the leadership side, the more you're willing to actually kind of work through your own stuff and your own things that are at play and your own history that plays a part of it, the more you're going to understand how to um not keep create recreating the same pattern over and over when you do get home and you are working through it in real time with your spouse. So um, it was great. And I was really thankful for that advice because it kind of made me think, okay, I'm not here to take some good notes about some cool things that I'm learning, but more be okay, I'm gonna go in and workshop myself through this. Um, and that made a huge world of difference.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's and it's fun. It is fun, I promise. That's the other thing is we're not trying to set it up to be intense. It is also a really great weekend for many other ways. It's a great environment.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it's like an amazing opportunity to like watch just the encouragement that you get through witnessing other couples breaking through for things, like it it really like makes you feel like you're leaving, empowered to be like, we can have this too. Like, um yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, it's powerful. And then uh, you know, one of the things that I was so passionate about with this workshop is I wanted people to actually experience the results while they were there so that when they go home, they already know it works for them. And yeah, it can be clunky and it takes, you know, continued practice. But um, as you were saying earlier, David, it kind of sucks to go to a workshop. And while it makes you feel good in the moment, you go home and try and apply it. And then it's like, this makes no sense in real life.
SPEAKER_00Where you do what I've done and take good notes, and then you get home and you put the notebook away in a corner, and then you never actually open it and revisit any of the things ever again.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Not that I've done that.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Well, thank you guys so much for being willing to share your story. And um, I'm just grateful to get to walk with you and for others to be inspired by what's possible because I think ultimately people will be very um familiar with your experience. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yep, thanks for having me.
Join The Marriage Growth Community
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I want to talk to you about something super exciting. It's a game changer, really. To have the relationship you long for, you must take responsibility for yourself and who you are being moment by moment. It's not about what your spouse needs to change, it's about you taking control of the only thing you can control, which is you. That's the truth that nobody's talking about when they talk about marriage. But I am inside the marriage growth community where I will help you take responsibility for your ability to lead conversations with your spouse, to love and connection, so you can have the marriage you dreamed of when you first fell in love. At the very first link in the show notes, you can grab my marriage growth community, and that's really going to help. I know that, because it's based on the same principles I've used to coach this couple and hundreds of other couples to marriage success over the last nine years. So grab marriage growth community at the top of the show notes.