I know why I’m triggered & what my fantasy is about, now what?

Temptation rarely arrives out of nowhere—it rides in on pain, pressure, and old stories that never got the care they needed. In this episode, Josh checks in with coaches Aaron Tagert and James Craig to explore a kinder, braver way to face unwanted sexual behavior: trade shame for curiosity, isolation for relationship, and quick fixes for deep repair.

We start by reframing triggers as signals of emotional or physical discomfort, then show why “why” is the wrong starting question. Instead, we lean into who, what, when, where, and how—questions that ground you in your body, invite empathy, and open space for God’s presence. From there, we walk through practical tools: story work you write and read aloud to a safe person, grief work that honors losses across the years, and healing prayer that invites Jesus into the memory where the wound began. These practices create integration and reduce the power of secrecy.

If you’re tired of white-knuckle rules and want a path that blends neuroscience, spiritual formation, and practical steps, this conversation offers clarity and hope. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review telling us which question you’ll practice this week.

Resources in this episode:

• 7 Desires of Every Heart.pdf
• Anatomy of the Soul by Curt Thompson
• Unwanted by Jay Stringer 
• Email us questions!  info@regenerationministries.org

🗓️ Upcoming:

You’re invited to Regeneration’s Annual Sweet & Savory Fundraiser on Saturday, April 11, at 6:30 PM at McLean Presbyterian Church. Join us for an encouraging evening of real stories and renewed hope as we celebrate how Christ is bringing healing and restoration through the ministry of Regeneration.  To learn more, register, or host a table RSVP here.

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Welcome And Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:18

If you're just joining us, welcome to the Regeneration Podcast. I'm Josh Glazer. Uh, and I'm in the studio today, in this the studio, the three studios today, with Aaron Taggart and James Craig, two of our coaches here at Regen. Here's what we're gonna get after today. Uh, all of us have the experience of in our own lives and in the lives of clients walking with men and women who are they're wrestling with unwanted sexual behavior, they're trying to grow in sexual integrity, and they've made great progress in beginning to identify what's triggering their behaviors, but then they're a little bit at a loss as what to do about that. They maybe even made some good progress in recognizing what's triggered their behaviors and what they're actually feeling in the moment, so what they're looking for in the moment, but then they're still struggling. So we'll we'll unpack that a little bit, but before we get there, uh guys, how are you doing today? Give give give our listeners give give me a little bit of a a 411 just so you can be a little human before we just make you uh voices on the podcast.

Defining Triggers As Pain Signals

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I woke up with a runny nose, Josh, but I I think it's I think it's past, but I uh coming in pretty strong today. Um it's interesting because I I slept in a little bit, didn't do my prayer time, and I'm actually finding so much life in prayer these days that I went on like a shortened prayer walk to pray for this meeting and every other thing we have going on today. So that's that's been a sweet spot for me. But um a little disoriented in the morning, but kind of on my game now.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I love it. And I and I love the uh the maturity to not be kind of the black and white all or nothing. Oh, I miss my prayer time and that's it. But just like, oh, I can do an abbreviated time. Praise God.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Absolutely. It's hard to figure out sometimes, but I I was like, I need it. I'm gonna run out on a 10-minute walk. Awesome, love it.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Aaron, a A Ron, how are you coming? Yeah, well, speaking of maturity, it was it was a lot for me to hold back there when James was talking about his nose running because I was thinking, oh, you better go catch it. Yeah. Um, anyway, it's terrible. I know. I was dad afore, so those jokes are a frequent part of my everyday living.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

It's actually part of your brain development when you have kids, is the dad joke region of the brain comes into being. So it makes sense, Aaron.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

And I think that like the joy center, I think that's one area that just keeps going pretty much. Yeah, that's true. Uh yeah, mine's just, yeah, you know, parenting stuff. It's hard. Uh, you know, running into some things which uh, you know, uh riffing about uh before we hit record, but it'll keep you on your toes, that's for darn sure. Um, so here we are, uh in the midst of parenting and living life and talking about some really important things for I'm I'm grateful for you guys and the lives you le live and with me today.

Curiosity Over Why

SPEAKER_00 3:19

I am coming. Here's what I'd say about parenting. Uh in my experience, parent parenting in my life does one of two things when it gets hard. And there's a there has been a lot of hard in recent last couple years at least. It either it turns me into a super worrier, not warrior, worrier and I just and everything's off. Or it it it exposes how much I need prayer and calls me to it. Um I think I've I think I've to to riff off you, James, I think I've been in the space of like I this is not optional anymore. I need prayer. Uh my kids need prayer. The world needs prayer for granted loud. So yeah, but I'm eager for this conversation. All right, so let me let me set it up for us. Uh and listeners, see see if you recognize your yourself in this. So if you're if you're listening and unwanted sexual behaviors is part of the the story for you, that's maybe why you're listening, or you've got a loved one and you know they're dealing with it. This is a just kind of part of the process of learning this. But uh most often when people first walk through the door, they're only vaguely aware, if aware at all, that this pattern of returning to their unwanted sexual behaviors doesn't come out of nowhere. It doesn't just hit them on the side of the head out of the blue, that it's always preceded by some type of trigger. And here we define trigger as some type of emotional or physical pain or discomfort. There's something that's set them off. And so part of the early work we do with people in recovery, whether it's in our one of our groups or in our one-to-one coaching, is beginning to help them recognize and reflect like, what's what are the triggers? What could that be? What could be the emotional pain or discomfort that's preceded this? Once they begin to recognize that, then we begin helping them to connect the dots with what's the story about that type of pain or discomfort in your life? Where did you first experience it? Uh, why does it kick up so hard in that situation? And why do you typically feel so uh so helpless to respond to that emotion or that pain uh so that you end up running to an something that you don't want in your life, the the porn or the the act out in some way? It's a very high view flying over this. But but then once you begin to recognize that, so if you if you're if you haven't, if all that I just said to you is like is like you know, foreign language to you, okay. Then that gives you some some places maybe to begin. And we'd love to walk with you. We got men and women on our team that would love to walk with you and help you uncover uncover that stuff. So just reach out.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Well, and real quick, Josh, even the word trigger, our culture uses it in a different way than you're using it. So you're really tying it. You're not just saying, hey, you triggered me and you should never trigger me. You're saying there's something in me being triggered from my past, which is an invitation for me to grow, not an invitation to shut down the any possible trigger in my environment. So just a different, important difference that I think for a lot of people it's new language or a different way to use the same language.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. Yes. This is the way that we use trigger, and even the way we understand as it culturally as people use trigger, we typically hold the view of if you're triggered, that is your responsibility. Why you're triggered so intensely may involve a lot of other factors in your life, including things that are not your responsibility, but but what you're gonna do with it is yours. So this is not about creating a safe zone in your life that you're absolutely never triggered. Uh, we're all triggered in in various ways. And so, how are we gonna grow up to be responding to our triggers, or said more plainly, to respond to the pain we experience with maturity, with grace, with godliness, as opposed to running to our uh to our isolated places, which end up leaving us acting out sexually. So um Yeah, so guys, just just uh any any other gaps you want to fill in, what I've said, but but I'd also I'm I'm curious to hear what you'd say, like to the client or the friend or the spouse who would say, Yeah, I I get it. I recognize that um, you know, when I experience this type of interaction at work, I I tend to feel pretty small. And I recognize it, and I've learned that that has something to do with the relationship I had with my mom when I was a kid. Because when I'd hit those similar situations back then, that's how she made me feel. She made me feel small. She treated me like that. Or, hey, I recognize that I'm typically tempted to act out sexually right before an exam or right after an exam. And I've begun unpacking, like, yeah, that's because one, no one ever taught me that my uh sense of worth is embedded in who I am, not in how I perform. And so there's a lot of pressure on me that I feel internally about that. Uh, but on top of that, I never learned how to uh uh how to how to walk through difficult things in that way. So I've begun recognizing some of these, connecting some of these dots, but now what? Because I'm still feeling it. I'm still feeling the pain, I'm still feeling the discomfort, and I'm still tempted to act out. And it still looks like maybe the best option for me right now because I don't want to continue to feel to feel this pain or this discomfort. So, Aaron, let me kick it to you. You're talking to a friend, a client, uh uh someone in your church, and that's what they're saying. Where do you where do you go?

Shame, Judgment, And Better Questions

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Well, um a couple things come to mind. One of them, uh just sort of initially, would be uh a little additional layer of I think curiosity. Um it's like great, you know, uh I I think of it as kind of in terms of like a like a journey, right? Where you've been, where you're where you're going. And the part you're just talking about is really being able to name a little bit about where you've where you've been. Like you're you're getting some understanding about where you've been, but then where where are you going? Where do you want to go? You know, where well and you know, so being maybe shepherded through that in coaching or something for sure, yeah. But but that's what starts to you know come up for me is like, okay, this this is maybe like a part of my past, or like I'm understanding this more, and that's been helpful, but I'm still sort of stuck. I don't know what to, I don't know what to do with that. So on that journey to move forward, you might need some help kind of figuring out how do I move forward. Um, you know, and and so that's one of the things that comes up for me. The other thing comes up for me too, is taking this, you know, to to the to the Lord, you know, asking the Lord. I think there are two really good questions that we can we can ask him. And oftentimes we are asking why questions, like, why haven't you taken this? Why is this so hard? Why? And it's like, okay, like the Lord hears those, but I don't think those are the right questions. I think, I think reframing that to man, Lord, like I I'm aware of, you know, this happened when I was, you know, in junior high, and and you know, as a result, like I can see how this is you know, you know, my my acting out is connected to this, and you know, but then not knowing where to go from there, okay, Lord, what what do you want me to know about this? Um, give me some revelation, like sit with me in this. And there's actually, I think, an invitation there to be with him, um, and maybe to even be with others, like I said, you know, coaching or whatever that might look like, community, um, you know, a safe group if you're part of a group. But um, so asking the Lord, sort of, what do you want me to know about this? Okay, like I've I've uncovered some things. I feel like maybe you even shared some things, okay. And then the next layer is, what do you want me to do? Like, what are some, you know, what are some things I can do? Or what do you want me to know? How do I move forward with you in in this so that it doesn't have the same effects? Those are a couple of things that come up for me. Yeah.

unknown 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

How about you? I want to jump off that a little bit because what Aaron's saying, first of all, when he says curiosity is actually also an invitation to humility. I think for so many of us, we think we know more than we do. And it's such a humbling journey to go through recovery and recognize there are things I don't yet know, which then, if you're like me, means you're gonna try to get God into the corner to kind of force his hand and say, God, I'm ready. You got to tell me, you got to remind me of this, you got to show me more. But he knows the process of unfolding in a way that we don't quite understand. He knows the maturity we have to be able to handle the process of unfolding our story in more depth that we often we'd like to think we're further ahead sometimes than we actually are in our maternity journey, at least speaking for myself. The other thing that Aaron said was why can often be not really a question. It can be a like kind of shaking our fists at God uh type of thing, which, you know, God can handle it. Uh, don't be afraid to go to him with anything, really. But Kurt Thompson points out in his book, Anatomy of the Soul, why is the wrong question for getting curious about our story? Obviously, we want to know why. Like, so in that sense, it's the right question. We're trying to get underneath what why did I do this? Why do I struggle in these ways? But he actually says when you're listening to another person's story, don't ask them why they're doing something. Ask them who, what, uh, when, where, or how. How did you feel when that was happening? What was going on in that environment? And I've noticed this even in my own marriage. There are times where my wife, maybe out of the goodness of her heart, is like, why are you feeling that way? And that actually shuts me down more. And Kurt gave me this language to realize, yeah, I do want to get underneath and figure out why. But that actually engages, I think Kurt said in the in Kurt Thompson says in his book that that's more those left brain type questions. But actually, who, what, when, where, and how, when done in a relational way, are getting after things on more of a right brain relational level. So you're opening up doors for genuine curiosity, having humility toward yourself and others, these types of questions can actually be much more fruitful than the why question.

Coaching Tools: Story, Grief, Prayer

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I want to dig into that a little bit further, but before I do, I want to just add to that that for a lot of us, the the word why can feel like an accusatory word. And so on two levels there. If you're listening to somebody else uh and you hear them uh say, you know, you know, why am I doing this or or why is God allowing this? Uh you might begin to interpret that as, I'm talking to listeners here, you might be able to begin to interpret that as this person is is already experiencing some shame or accusation around what their experience is. If you're listening to yourself use the word why, like why do I keep doing this? Or why do I keep feeling this? That might reveal to you or or at least get you curious about are you feeling on some level already judged about where you are? And if you are, then that's gonna be really difficult for you to extend curiosity that's the kind of fruitful curiosity that you're gonna need in this journey. So, like for example, I I've known in my life, as a man who's wrestled with a lot of fear and anxiety, when I hear the why question rising up, why do I feel so afraid about this? There's already judgment behind that for me that that reveals that has revealed to me and continues to reveal to me. I feel pretty bad about feeling fear. So instead of kind of just noticing the fear and being able to approach it with curiosity, I'm already judging myself. A man shouldn't feel fear like this. A man my age shouldn't feel fear like this, a man with this level of responsibility, whatever it is, I'm already putting judgment there, which shuts me down to some of the work I think, James, that you're trying to get after. So for whatever that's worth to listeners, James, let me let me press in a little bit with what you're saying. Like, make that concrete for us a little bit more. Like, so um, let me put you in the in the coaching seat for a moment. You're you're the coach, and your client is saying to you, um, James, I just acted out again. You and I have been working together for a good bit of time now, and I recognize that this triggered some old stuff in my in my heart, and I was feeling low about myself, or I was feeling trapped, or I was feeling helpless, or I was feeling whatever it might be. And instead of and and I know that's just part of my story, it's part of the history. Like I that's what I kind of learned to do as a kid to survive, or that's what I that's all I could do as a kid because no one taught me how to do it differently. Um so instead of getting into the in into why, like, okay, why'd you do that? You're asking when you talk about those other questions that Kurt Thompson recommends, how does that play out? How do you ask that question to a client? Or how might a listener ask that to themselves as as they're trying to be curious about their story?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah, I was I was imagining myself jokingly saying, why, Josh? Why'd you give in? Or and I was just thinking about how much that would totally shut down the thing you just were setting up. It really does. I mean, think about that. If you imagine me, Josh just gave that tender confession. I said, Well, why'd you do that? Or you know, it just doesn't help that much. Here's where I love to go, Josh, these days, especially. Where do you feel that in your body? When you when you go back to that place of temptation or trigger, where do you feel that in your body? How are you doing emotionally? What's going on for you in in your heart as you're reflecting on this, even right now? Um this is one from our colleague Blake. He was just training our awakened leaders. Our awakened leaders are volunteers, but they're vetted and trained. And he was saying, Who taught you to think that way? He's like, none of you came out of the womb thinking I'm, you know, I'm messed up or I'm beyond repair. Let's just use that strong shame phrase. I'm beyond repair. None of us came out of the womb. We literally, our brains weren't developed enough to have that type of thought, period. It's just a fact. None of us came out of the womb thinking that. So someone taught us to think that way. So when when does that kind of thought, like you said, you know, I'm now trying to remember exactly how you were phrasing stuff, but when you said that thing of uh I'm broken beyond repair, who in your life uh does that kind of idea come from? Like did you learn that from a parent or from a famous figure or a classmate? So really these different I'm I keep looking back down at these five different classic, you know, who, what, when, where, how type questions, and all of those can open more doors versus if I were to jump in with the why, I think it would have shut the door on the conversation.

Isolation Vs Relationship In Recovery

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, even when you asked, and I know I was giving a hypothetical situation, but when you said where do you feel that in your body? I, even though I had just been talking on a theoretical level, I felt my own, my own um well, my my emotional state, my own heart kind of just settle a little bit, like, oh that is the question of somebody who is inter more interested in me than in fixing me, more interested in me than me getting this just right. And I think it presents an opportunity. Interestingly, if you look at the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve fell, uh, the Lord's response to them, and there are multiple ways to read this, but the Lord's response to them is ask questions. Even as he learns about the truth of the situation, I say learns, uh, it's probably safe to assume he knew exactly what happened, even more so than it demonstrates the humility and interest in their well-being that he comes with questions. Adam, where are you? Who told you you were naked? Um, did you eat? That's a yes or no question, so we might kind of pivot a little bit there, but um actually, so many of the first things that God says that are recorded in in Genesis 3 and onward are questions. Um, even even when we get into Cain and Abel, the Lord comes with a question. And I know that one way a lot of people read those, just as an aside, is he's coming thundering with his questions. Where are you? Who told you you were name? I mean, um, but but what if, what if the tone is a loving father who's trying to help orient his create his created beings, his beloved, orient them to the truth of their situation in kind of in some of the same way we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Well, and even that yes or no question, Josh, in that context, in the the relative youngness, you might say, of Adam and Eve and the innocence, like having them have that clear statement of yes or no, I did or didn't do this could even be a blessing as part of the whole package of these deeper questions. So I see that like you're saying, the heart of God is, where are you? What's you know, what's really going on? Who told you to, you know, he actually gives that type of question, who told you you're naked? And so they didn't come out of uh his creation knowing they were naked in that type of way. Who told you this? This is a thing that was planted in Aaron. I know you've talked a lot about part of the work you're doing when you're coaching is unpacking some of those lies and trying to get in touch with like, who who told you this? You know, I think you you have that same kind of mindset. I've heard you talk about it before.

The Front Porch Metaphor For Temptation

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Yeah, and I am so drawn to because of just what Josh even just brought up, you know, the ways that even even when even when when Jesus is cornered, he doesn't give like a he start, he asks questions all the time. Um, and I think like I almost get this visual sort of uh like in the spirit, like that the like these questions are like swords that are just slicing off little pieces of shame because I think at the heart of what we're really talking about is in some of the things like you know, not knowing how to move forward, a lot of that I think comes from shame because shame shows up in so many different ways. Um I I even I even looked up like uh we've done so many you know podcasts on here where we talked about shame and different things, but you know. Negative self-talk, feeling inadequate, fear and anxiety, isolation, avoidance, hiding or shrinking, thinking that you have to be perfect. So if you're not perfect, ah, like you know, sabotaging. Um, there are so many different ways that shame shows up. It could be physical, it could be just mental or emotional. And it shows up in all of those different ways for different people at different times. And I feel like by asking questions, you're you're sort of you know slicing off a little piece of that shame. Let's get a little more curious about that. Why does that why does that hit so hard? Or why can't like you're aware of this? You can so again, like you know, the careful of those why questions, but um yeah, Aaron. Yeah, I know. I'm feeling that piece I was just feeling now. I'm feeling I'm catching myself, you know. But you so okay, so you are aware, so just I like I like to just speak back, you know. Oh, oh, so you just named this. Where's the first place that you can remember experiencing that in your life? Oh, now I'm thinking about a particular moment. Yeah, and as I start to unpack that, whoa, I didn't even realize that that carried as much as it does. All right, well, now like the rest of our session, we're like, well, well, let's unpack that thing. Like, let's you know, let's get back to that place with Jesus to begin to, you know, maybe remove some of the things that need to be removed and let him heal what what needs to be healed um that you didn't experience. Because here's the again, so much of this is from our younger selves and in our stories. And like I'm looking at a screen with you guys, man. We're like all in our I think James is in his 30s now. I mean, I don't yeah, I don't know. James is the youngest of all of us. Um, but you know, we we have life, we have experience, right? And we are we are adult men, but when we were younger and we experienced something as boys and maybe didn't know how to unpack that or who to talk to, and we have this wound that we ourselves are like, oh, I I guess I'll just throw some gauze on this thing. I don't know what to do with it. And then bam, now I'm 10 years older, and that wound never healed, but I got older and it's still present in my body, in my mind. And so what do we so that's part of what we're talking about? How do we get after some of those things even as our adult selves when we've experienced when the wound we experienced was actually when we were younger, but it still shows up.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

By the way, Aaron, the way you asked those why questions is a that was more of the tender invitational style, you know, versus the yes, the primary we're talking about are the ones that you can feel are trying to do a quick fix instead of coming into the pain with with you, you know.

Seven Core Desires And Real Needs

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Yeah. Well, so I love the way you said that, James, because and and Aaron, I'm I'm with James, I was kind of ribbing you your the even the tone and the the what the why was with and how you asked, I think were a little bit different. But um the interesting thing about questions as opposed to statements and opposed to kinds of why questions that James you're pointing out are trying to bring a quick fix. A good question is is relational. You know, when I say something to you, and you know, depending on your background, depending on how it hits or doesn't hit, it might stir something in you, and then there might be silence and you know, it could be a part of a conversation. But but a good question is by definition relational because it's it's it's you're putting something out from one person to another to elicit something, to draw something out of another person that then the first person will hear. And it it reminds me of the, you know, the I can't remember who it was that who said it this way, but it's just so true. The opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, it's relationship. And so these younger parts of us that learned just how to survive probably learned it pretty much alone. Or if they learned it from somebody else, they learned it from somebody else who didn't really know how to relate well. Like just you just turn the TV on, you know. That's what I did as a kid. You just get in front of the TV, make a joke. Uh so to to be asked questions in this way does invite an exploration that's very relational. So, guys, let me let me push this a little further though. Let's let's say, okay, now I've begun to look like uh you both brought up a kind of idea of when was the first time you remember feeling something like that, or or who taught you to respond that way or to taught you to see it that way or to feel that, you know, that in that situation or think that way. So you're you're you're inviting people to look back at their their childhood and connect dots between, oh, this present moment and the intensity of it, or or the way that I felt stuck in it didn't come out of nowhere, didn't come out of a just out of, I'm, you know, it's a it's an integrity flaw that's just somehow uniquely in me and I should be ashamed of it. There's actually something that connects to my story with it. And I can begin then connecting with that part of me or grieving that, or Aaron, I think you talked about now we're in an entirely different kind of conversation. Light bulbs are going on and you're connecting that. So let's say now we we we've walked with a client to that place and they know some of those old wounds. They know some of where this comes from and why these specific situations are difficult, and they're tempted. It's still hard. I know that I'm that this comes from the, you know, that situation with my dad or my mom or when I was picked on in grade school. Uh, and it's still firing in me. It's still, you know, zinging in me. Like, does that mean I've missed a step? There's something more for me to do in the processing. Is there something simply like, yep, you know what? You just tend to be tender in that area. And here's you need to learn some something else to manage that in a different way. Like, where would you guys go with a client who's who's who knows their story is connected somewhere, but there's still like the pain of it still kicks in. Uh, and perhaps in addition to that, they're also still like then tempted to act out.

Moving Toward Healthy Risk And Closing Prayer

SPEAKER_01 29:20

I think we have a couple of really strong tools as coaches. Um, because we're not licensed therapists, we don't have like EMDR, which is can be an awesome tool for unlocking and kind of healing some trauma using the way our eyes move to connect our left and right brain. Amazing. But some of the tools we do have are story work. So that is uh in a very practical way. It's both just discussing the story, processing, like Aaron was saying, but also writing out the story, maybe 500 to 700 words or whatever. Um, ideally, even with perhaps uh handwritten. And what that does is it helps you to explore the story. And then when you read it to us as the coach or even to your spouse or a close friend, you're uh bringing integration, you're actually entering into the pain in a relational way because as someone was saying earlier, so much of the trauma we experience is because we're alone in it. So many of the wounds, even if trauma is too big of a word, so many of the wounds we experience are I'm alone in this. I don't know how to overcome this. No one's there with me. And so story work can be an awesome way to connect some of those dots that connects with grief work. So taking note of griefs, trying to enter into them emotionally. Uh, we actually, when this podcast is coming out, we're in the heart module of Awaken. And uh lessons four and five of the heart module are like kind of the heart of the heart module where you literally take stock of your entire life, good, bad, and ugly, five-year increments. That's grief work. It's getting in touch with the pain, which is the opposite of running from it. And then another awesome tool we have is healing prayer, because Jesus, speaking of being relational and entering into the story, he's outside of time and he actually wants to meet us in our story. So sometimes I might assign a story. Hey, that story sounded really significant. It seems like it's very connected to this wound. We kind of understand why, but do the story work, come with that. And then we might even enter into prayer. Jesus, where were you in the story? Jesus, what do you say to so-and-so in the in this story? So those are some of the sharpest tools, if you will, that we have to bring healing and integration. But I think the key, like you were saying, Josh, is not just uh this idea of I'm just trying to get sober. It's actually relationship. God uses relationship with him and with others, healing relationships to heal us. They're really necessary. And so so many of what you're describing is I'm alone in my temptation. What do I do in this moment? But I guess what I'm inviting us to is this bigger journey of let's actually process this in an effective, deep way. Let's actually see where Jesus was. Let's connect it relationally.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Well, and James, part of what I hear you, I mean, you if I want to make this explicit to anybody who missed it, but you because you talked about those, those either big T or small T traumas or wounds that people experienced and how they walked through them alone, which is one of the one of the reasons that those pains can continue to persist and impact us as we move forward, is because of what we experienced alone, because we experienced them alone, or at least we interpreted the moment that we were alone in them. And then fast forward to temptation, which has these triggers, these stories that that are underneath it. Our response to those, then, when they are when when our response to the temptation is that we stay alone, that's probably a pretty good indicator that the wound there still is binding us into isolation, that we still have something, something to work through so good out of that moment of isolation and say, I'm not alone. And I mean, I know in Awaken, uh, the the first module, the strength module, guys learn, pick up the 400-pound telephone and call. And if you don't have the the nerve to call, then text, like connect to somebody else. And it's kind of like it's treated like a fire drill. Like you just need it's an emergency situation. Don't be alone in the temptation. But really, the curve of awaken and the curve that you're describing in coaching is we we want to move beyond I'm reaching out simply because I'm tempted, to I want to learn why I keep the stay in these patterns of isolation in moments that are intense and difficult for me. Um, am I hearing you right?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah. And uh we're we haven't to be recording this, it's coming out after Christmas, but we're in Advent right now, guys, when we record this. And I just can't help but think of Jesus didn't just come to teach us. He didn't just come to die for our sins as central as that is. He didn't just come to bring resurrection life and overcome the devil. All those are crucial. But he also came to be with us in the pain. It's a manual God with us. That is a key part of the gospel that I think we can often forget. He's modeling coming into pain when he had he did not need to. He's the only one, the only person who never needed to come into pain, and he chose to willingly. So this is the kind of God we serve, and this is the model for healing and being able to grieve as those with hope. We need that relational connection with him and others.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Aaron, let me let me pivot and ask you a question. What do you say to the to the man or woman who, again, is in this journey? They begun recognizing some of the connecting the dots between the current temptation and some of the other um the the their story, the the pain in their story. And they're they're feeling tempted, but they but they feel they feel alone still in that moment. Like, so James has kind of given us a hey, here's some things to work on long term, but what about in the moment itself? Like, okay, obviously I have stuff to work on right now, but I'm also on a business trip and I'm in a lot of pain and I gotta go get to get in the meeting in an hour. Like, what the H am I supposed to do right now? Like, what do you what do you say to that to that person? How can they approach that differently than just kind of gritting their teeth and making it through?

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Yeah. Um I'm thinking you know, about what you said earlier about you know, obviously the the opposite of a of addiction is relationship or community. So I I think even you know, part of uh I don't know. This is tricky because maybe you don't feel like you have a sense of community uh or or people because that's where my that's that's where my mind is is inclined to go. Like who can you who can you reach out to? Like who can you you know begin to you know sort of uh bring into sort of that inner circle like Jesus had, right? Like your who are your mat carriers? I think we talked about that on the show before. Um mat carriers meaning Yeah, who can bring you who can bring you like you know the paralytic before Jesus? Yeah, you know, he couldn't he couldn't do it himself, he needed others to bring him before the presence of the Lord. Um, so who can do that for you? You know, and if you don't have those people, um, you know, I would you know encourage you to to do some work and sit with the Lord in that. Like who can be some of those people? Um, and maybe build some of that up. Uh, I think that's part of the work here uh is to be able to to do that and to see the need for that. Um and and I think it starts also with your own posture of having some compassion there again instead of the the the shame. Um like just because a temptation shows up doesn't mean it's a it's not a condemnation. Um, you know, it's not a like oh there it is again, guilty as charged, you know. No, like you you haven't done like and hear me on this. Like, I I think in my own journey it took me some time to get to this place. Like I haven't done anything wrong in this moment. This temptation is here, like I don't want it. Here it is. What do I do? Like, but I think from that moment forward for so many it feels like the condemnation, like it's here, gosh darn it, it found me again. I'm already uh, you know, I might as well already give up. Um, and so it's I I think you know, having some compassion in that moment to begin to to understand, no, no, no, like this can be here, and I can I can learn to show up differently when this shows up. You know, I feel like when we have certain guests come to our doors, I think you know, we greet different people in different ways. Oh, it's so great to see you. Oh my gosh, like, oh, how's blah blah blah? And then there's other people where we're like, Oh, this is a tree guy, and this is like the fifth time he's been here this week. I don't want him to cut down anything, and I'm just like, hey, you know, good to see you. Um, still thinking about it. Thanks. See ya, you know, like if we greet, so with this that's why he keeps coming back. You you come together. Yeah, I need you to be firm on that, man. Um, but you know what I'm saying? Like when this shows up, like we're not like excited, we're not like greeting, you know, this as you know, like our our BFF, but we still need to address that door. Um, you know, it yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

The man or woman listening who that's their that's it. Like you just touched a nerve when you said, Well, yeah, when it shows up, of course I feel dot dot. So I wanna I want to tee this up for you and ask, like, what's your in your experience? Either you can eat do either or both these, but either okay, this thing comes it comes knocking. You're not glad it's there, but there's lots of messages that are coming to you with it about you, shaming messages. If that's at your door, where where is Jesus? What's his posture with you in that moment? So Aaron, yeah, what's what's your sense of what the father says or or how the father is posture in that moment when somebody's feeling the weight of temptations common, what it means about that.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Yeah. I mean Emmanuel, God is with us. And I think it's a reminder in that moment, like Jesus wants you to know, hey, even right now, even in the midst of this, I'm with you. Let's step like you know, let's go out on the porch and talk to the sucker, you know. Let's, you know, let's not ignore the door. Here's the thing about temptation, right? Whether we respond or don't respond, it's probably gonna still come back for some reason or another. Um, and avoiding, it's definitely gonna come back. Um avoiding that tree guy definitely comes back. Um, you know, but step like so. This is like in in unwanted, right? The stepping out onto the porch, and we've talked about that analogy. I think it's such an important thing to learn how to do. And it comes down to I can do say a little bit more about it, because for some people who haven't read Unwanted, what oh sure illustration you're referring to. Yeah, no, sorry. Um you know, so it's kind of that idea, you know, when sort of this I will call it an unwanted guest or whatever, right? Comes knocking at your door. Um, they there are messages, there's something they want to communicate. So this temptation, there's something that it is communicating to you. Um, but if you let it into the house in a welcoming kind of way, then it's sort of that resignation, it's that futility, it's the um, you know, my I'm already guilty. So come on in. Um and we don't want to do that. So he talks about, you know, moving, stepping out onto the porch, um, neutral space, right? Not like engaging some, you know, if you're thinking at home, like, oh man, you know, um, got the house to myself tonight, and uh, you know, I'm starting to get curious about some of these things, and I'm feeling tempted, and I'm in I'm in the dark, and I'm lonely and I'm isolated, like that's probably not the front porch. Like, that's not a safe place to be able to step out and to have this conversation and listen to what these um what this temptation is trying to to tell you, right? And so that porch is a, I would say kind of a neutral place where you could step in a protected way and and maybe you know it's and letting others know you know you're doing some of this work or whatever that might look like. So, you know, I think in the midst of that, right, like inviting Jesus, hey, like you said, I mean, even you said you would never leave me or forsake me. Step out here with me on this porch right now, would you? As I talk to this guest, and I'm telling you, he is he is he is with you um and wants to be with you. This isn't like a oh, okay, fine. Uh you know, let's go out. Like, no, he's like, hey, you want to you you want to talk to this thing?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Let's do it. I'm right here. You're you're clarifying, like, he the voice of the Lord is not the voice saying, like, why are you feeling this again? Yeah, how have we got that? Um he said he it's the it's the voice of hey, if we need to keep asking this thing why it keeps showing up, I'm I'm with you. I'll go with you again. Like, let's keep getting after it. I almost get the picture of like a uh a salient father figure, you know, that there's a knock on the door and the kid is is feeling all sorts of feels inside about like, oh crud, not again, you know, like and is my dad gonna hear this here? And the the dad gets up. I have this beautiful picture of just a dad with his hand on his on the on a boy's shoulder, but like the dad's chest right against the back of the boy, you know, like let's get we'll go together, son. Like you do not have to face this without me.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Um and that's empower, it's it's empowerment, like moment, like Jesus is empowering you with his power to step out and to to face, to not flee, right? To to try to get to the bottom of this. What are you what are you communicating? So again, like that a question I asked earlier, you know, Lord, what do you want me to know about this temptation? What do you want me to know about the messages it's bringing? You know, sit with him on that, literally, journal, like be with him in that. What comes to your mind? And then what do you want me to do about it, Lord? Maybe it's practical in the moment. Hey, get in your car, go see Eric. I don't know who Eric is if you're listening, but uh, you know, get Farric's a safe good friend. Right, Farric's a good friend. Um, you know, go you know, go to go drive down by the river.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

You know, and and let me give a little let me give a little permission here too to listeners. Like Aaron mentioned earlier, like, hey. If you're all alone and you've got no resources, it might not be the time to try to dig into like why is this thing keep showing up? You might need to be a little more practical at the moment, but you have a father who knows, who understands, who's loving. Like, what would it be like instead of, you know, like so many of us move into the ritual of like, well, I'm not gonna answer the door, but I am gonna isolate further. I'm going to uh disconnect from my emotions, I'm gonna turn on the TV, I'm gonna start to scroll. And the knocking's on the door and it's getting louder. Uh I'm gonna continue to scroll, and then there's something on the screen, the door's knocking even louder. And we know that we've been done it a million times. What would it be like if the father might just say, like, hey, I know that right now is not a good time to have a conversation with that temptation at the door. So why don't you and I read a book? Why don't you and I, hey, that movie that you know is a safe movie that you don't have to go scrolling to look for, it's a DVD or whatever. Like it's PG and you love it, and you know what? I love the part of you that loves it. Let's watch that together. You know, I mean the the the father is a good father, and there are times that where it may be just like we're just gonna do something together that's not getting after it. But well, guys, we're running out of time. I I wanna um uh James, you've been quiet. Um, as Aaron and I've been kind of chatting for the last few minutes, like anything burning on your heart that you'd say in kind of relation to some of the questions we're getting after in this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 46:19

We have a couple we have two hours left, right? For what's burning on my heart. Um, no, what what's burning on my heart, uh, Dr. Jim Wilder says that maturity uh is the ability to endure hardship well. And part of what we're recognizing listeners, and this is totally me included, is I don't know how to handle hardship well. I don't know what to do when temptation knocks at the door. But actually, one of the key ideas of stages of maturity, growing as a child, is God helping us. Ideally, you know, as actual children, our parents are helping us know how to meet our needs in genuinely satisfying ways. I know how to care for myself in a genuinely satisfying way. Most of us don't know how, at least the people I walk with and myself. So many of us don't know how. And so I just love your invitation that the father's trying to retrain us. Maybe you're four years old, five years old in this kind of stuck place, right? Like your inner child, so to speak, is like this young kid who just doesn't know how to care for themselves. They don't know what they need. And the father is there to come and reparent us. One other quick thing I got to share, and we shared this in a previous podcast, but uh Mark and Deborah Laser have this amazing concept of the seven desires of every heart. Seven desires that God has put in every heart, being heard and understood, being affirmed for what we do, being blessed for who we are, being safe, being touched in healthy, non-sexual ways, being chosen in that special one-on-one kind of relationship and being included in a community. And so, one invitation I have, um, in addition to everything Aaron was saying, one way you can actually look at this is not only where were these lacking growing up, because that can be a really helpful long-term exercise, but in the moment of temptation, which of these seven things am I needing right now? This is if if I need to feel heard and understood, I start with the father and then maybe I pick up the phone and call a brother or you know, a sister or whatever. Or I'm really struggling uh to feel included. But is there a place I can go where I'm actually around people in a healthy way, or ideally, even, you know, friendships and things like that? So I'm not sure that for everyone it's gonna be super obvious or simple to meet all seven of these needs in that moment. But part of what it means to grow through childlike maturity into adult level maturity, according to Jim Wilder, is learning how to have these needs met in healthy, holy ways. And I just find these really beautiful invitations that might actually give insight into what am I really looking for? What do I think pornography or a hookup or whatever is going to satisfy? Is it gonna make me feel touched or affirmed or, you know, so this can be a helpful place to go as well.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Well, and I think part of what you're doing there too is you're you're again, as opposed to I'm ashamed for what I'm experiencing right now. Recognize every single human being on the planet experiences the need, has the need, God-given need for these seven things. And that's just one one, you know, groups framing it out. List.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

So, like, you know, the the need to be included. And you know what? It's 11 p.m. at night, and it's gonna be really hard to find a community we feel can include it right now in this moment. But can you honor that's a really good desire? Beautiful. It didn't it didn't start with the temptation to go look at you know the degrading porn that you feel so ashamed about. Like underneath it, you want to be included and um and and can you grieve? Yeah, all week long. I haven't, and I need it, and tomorrow I need to do something about it. Um tonight, Lord, help me. Um and grieve. Yeah, yeah. So that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

And that's enduring hardship well. That that is a beautiful example of that.

unknown 50:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

And just to be clear, I was I was giving it as like a something I would aspire to, not something I think I do very well in my own life. But hey, Aaron, any any closing words from you that you're burning to say before I close this in prayer?

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Uh yeah, I just want to think one last thing. Um, and again, I think this comes maybe after some time, but um, you know, thinking about that, the you know, the the fantasy in that temptation, uh, you know, again, um, you know, what is what is that you're thinking about what it's communicating, what is it trying to help you avoid? It's almost this distraction, you know. You know, so move toward what that uh temptation or fantasy might be trying to avoid. And that might be, you know, trying to protect you from you know taking a healthy risk or um you know, relational vulnerability, emotional honesty in your relationship, maybe with your spouse or someone as close to you, um, responsibilities that you might have, a calling you might have. Um, and so I think that's a different way of thinking about that too, is you know, what actually, you know, what can you move toward that's sort of the opposite of what this is trying to do uh in that present moment.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

I love that. And actually, I didn't realize when I asked you to share something that you felt like you was burning that you were gonna be talking right to me. So I appreciate that. But I do think that's not something, that's not something that we've done a podcast on before, that specific topic. And I think that could be a really something to unpack even further. That's really good. Hey, listen, you two, you guys are beautiful men. I and I so appreciate the conversation with you today. I think you're you're modeling well, and I hope our listeners hear from you just the invitation to kindness towards ourselves and relationship. And I I love the way you guys model this in your own lives as you aspire to these things. And I love the way that you model that kind of kindness and reparenting as you're walking with men in uh in the groups you run and the one-to-one coaching. So if you're listening and there's something that kind of taps something for you today, either you're curious about digging into it and would like to have a few sessions with one of these guys or one of the women on our team. Or if it's something like, hey, I think I actually need to go further, I've never explored these things, you know, we're here. Um So Lord, thank you that you are God with us. Would you continue to invite us and help us to hear your invitation, Lord? Uh to walk with you and not to detach from you. And our listeners too, we pray. We love you, Lord. In Jesus' name, amen.