Church Culture and Sexuality

In this episode, our hosts share what they hear most from clients who love their local church yet feel stuck. Either sex is never addressed; it shows up as a quick “thou shalt not” list, or the tone implies “if you struggle, you’re bad.” We also explore the website dilemma: when clarity is loving, when vagueness backfires, and how a perceived bait-and-switch can retraumatize people who already fear rejection.

If you’re a pastor, a small group leader, or a church member who wants to help, listen and then share this with someone you trust. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what would it look like for your church to become a safer place to grow sexually whole?

Show Notes

• BWP: There’s no such thing as heterosexuality 
• Luke 5:1-11 describes the miraculous catch of fish, followed by Peter’s plea, “Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man,” and Jesus’ invitational response, “Follow me, and I will make you a fisher of men.”
• Brief synopsis of Side A, B, X, and Y beliefs:
  • Side A - God made people LGBT+ and affirms LGBT+ sexual identities, desires, behaviors, and social structures. 
  • Side B - God forbids same-sex sexual expression, so LGBT+ people should abstain from LGBT+ sexual behavior. However, there are a variety of reasons that it is good for those who experience non-heteronormative feelings to embrace LGBT+ identities. 
  • Side X - LGBT+ feelings and attractions are a result of childhood wounds and/or underdeveloped masculinity or femininity, so these inclinations can be changed with appropriate interventions. LGBT+ feelings and attractions should not serve as an identity marker for Christians. 
  • Side Y - LGBT+ feelings and attractions may or may not be a result of wounds; they may or may not change, but they should not serve as an identity marker for Christians. Like all Christians, those with same-sex attractions are called either to faithfulness in heterosexual marriage or abstinence in singleness. 
  • Regeneration’s view (which we believe more accurately aligns with orthodox Christianity through the ages): 
    God’s sexual design for humanity is both biological and theological: Biologically, men and women’s bodies are oriented toward the other in design—each with one sexual organ procreatively designed through sexual union with the other sex. Theologically, men's and women’s bodies are designed to image God. One distinct part of this design is that the marital sexual union is meant to point to the ultimate spiritual union between Christ and his bride, the Church. Whether single or married, all Christi

🗓️ Upcoming:

You’re invited to Regeneration’s Annual Sweet & Savory Fundraiser on Saturday, April 11, at 6:30 PM at McLean Presbyterian Church. Join us for an encouraging evening of real stories and renewed hope as we celebrate how Christ is bringing healing and restoration through the ministry of Regeneration.  To learn more, register, or host a table RSVP here.

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Why Sex Rarely Gets Discussed

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Friends, good to be with you again today. Uh Josh Glazer here joined in the studio with James Craig, the studio. He's in his office. I'm in my office. He's on the west coast. I'm on the east coast. So uh James, good to be with you, brother. You too, Josh. You said 90 degrees there today.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Yep. Right in the middle of uh or the end of February when we're recording this.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

We are we are in a balmy 50 degrees today in Maryland, and I love it. Uh this is just about perfect. So friends, today we're um well let me just let me just start with a question or two. Uh whether you're listening because you're you struggle with your own unwanted sexual behaviors, you're listening because you have a loved one who does, you're listening because you're a leader in a church or somewhere else and you you're concerned about these topics, whatever the reason, here's a question for you. What's it been like for you in the area of growing more sexually whole, more sexually holy in the context of your local church? Or maybe maybe a more easily understandable question, like how often does your pastor or your small group leader, your church, or if you've got a disciple or how often do they bring up the topic of sex? And when they bring it up, what do they talk about? What are s what are some of the categories they talk about? You know, in our experience, um and and why we're doing this podcast today is because we sit with uh lots and lots of men and women, the majority of whom are involved in local churches. And and James, I want to hear from you about this, but in my experience, most of them will tell me that they hear one of three things from from their their churches about the area of sex sexuality. Um so let me just stop there before I tell you what my three are. What for you, what what are the three, what would you say are some of the things that your clients typically hear? What's their experience like as they as they come to you wrestling with unwanted sexual behaviors?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

More often than not, this is not a topic that's brought up a lot. And uh, and by the way, Josh and I are coming from a perspective where we uh love our local churches, we're deeply involved, and uh we really, yeah, we care about the local church. We actually um, for those uh who are curious, our our leaders, our volunteer leaders are required to be deeply involved in a local church, um, at least for our awaken groups that I coordinate. Um, but the reality is I'm even thinking um my own experience as well, these topics just aren't brought up that often, maybe uh occasionally, as like uh pornography is thrown in to list struggle lists, if you will, right? Like and you might be struggling with this, you might be struggling with that. Um but it can feel like such um deep, murky, complicated waters, Josh, that I think many pastors don't have maybe the capacity to like focus as much as it would take to carefully go through those murky waters, as opposed to you know, things that are maybe clear or I don't know, uh I don't want to say like more exciting, but just like more outward or evangelistic or or discipleship things that maybe go deep, but not to these places in particular.

Three Harmful Church Messages

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so you're you've actually gotten that. So I'm gonna just make this explicit for our listeners. Like we as a as a ministry believe that in order for people to become whole, part of our mission, we want to help men and women become sexually whole, meaning they're they're abstaining from sexual sin and they are living into the fullness of what God designed them to be as men and women. We'll come more to that in this episode, at the end of this episode or or next next episode. This is a two-parter. Um we absolutely believe in order for people to be whole in this area of their life relationally sexually, they need the local church. They need to be integrated into the local body of Christ. Uh, they need to have their people around them at church and they need to be participating and also serving in the local church. Not necessarily all at the same time, not necessarily right away, but that's a part of becoming whole. And from from our seats, we have a lot of people come to our ministry, and when they talk about what happens in the area of sexuality at their church, uh, there's a disconnect. So we want the church to be healthy in this area for their sake as well. So for me, the here are the three, three typical responses. If I were to kind of canvas the people I've worked with for the last 25 years, I'd say one of three responses. The first is this. Yep, you heard that right. Like the the church is saying nothing about sex. It's not to talk about. That's what I meant by that. Uh, the second is there's a there's a list of of of thou shalt not. And that's probably like what you're talking about, like the struggle list. It's it's included. If it's included, it's included in the things that you shouldn't be doing as a as a Christian. The third is you're bad if you do these things. And I don't mean that I've ever heard anybody say, you know, they had a pastor stand up in a pulpit and say, by the way, if you're engaging pornography or if you're having sex with somebody of the same gender, like you're bad. I don't mean that that's been that explicit, but there's kind of this implicit kind of feeling in the church, like those things are bad. If you do them, you're bad too. And I think even the combination of those first two can communicate that. So if we never talk about it or rarely talk about it, but when we do talk about it, we just list it as a sin. Then the people who are struggling in the congregation, what are they supposed to think that their perspective is? Especially if the church is kind of talks about it as like a us them, like we don't do this, we don't believe this, they out there do that. I mean, I've heard so many people, especially in the area of LGBT stuff, who are struggling with those issues and they're Christians. So, you know, um a client who's got same-sex attraction and is trying to abstain from gay porn, he loves Jesus, he's going to church every week, but this is an area of ongoing struggle for him. And then he hears, you know, a couple of the elders make a comment about those gays or something, you know, like it's just he he's like, I don't belong here. So how how do we how do we navigate that then? And what is a church supposed to do so that we don't make those mistakes, but we also uh we become a place where where men and women who are wrestling with these things can come, can grow, uh, can uh can can be a part of the community.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

And then I think Josh, too, just to just to speak to I imagine a lot of pastors again are are concerned about like by going to these murky waters. Part of why we're talking about this today is to maybe be a little uh an equipping resource here, but we're concerned about doing more harm by engaging it poorly than we are by holding back. And so that's obviously attention, and that's that's not a place where it's like it's not immediately resolvable per se. But we do want to encourage that um perfully moving forward with action, I guess you could say, with speech, as lovingly as you can, as faithfully as you can, will actually it might stir up some stuff in the congregation. I think that's again part of what pastors are concerned about. If it stirs up too much, what will I do about it? Um, but that can actually be, I would say leaning a little bit more that direction is better than leaning a little bit more toward the we don't really talk about this kind of direction. I heard um in Unwanted, Josh, that in the context of the business setting, leaders who are controlling do less harm than leaders who pull back and and don't engage in leadership. In other words, we're also afraid of being the kind of domineering leadership leader, but that actually does less damage. Not that we want that, of course. Of course not. But that does less damage than a leader who doesn't step in at all.

LGBT Tension And The Website Question

SPEAKER_00 7:54

So that that's an interesting potentially A parallel, parallel, yeah. For like engaging here. And then the other the other issue, I think that we're as we engage with churches, one of the things that we we know more and more is that there are more and more churches who are really very sensitive to some of these topics, but they still don't know what to do with them. Sure. And so, you know, like I one of the questions we get a lot from pastors is how do how do we how can we be a church where LGBT the LGBT community would know to come here and they can experience the love of Jesus here, even if or even as we hold a traditional biblical perspective on sex and sexuality. So one of the like a like a baseline question would be, and you know, going right into it, do we put on our website our our stance? Because if we have on our website that we believe that marriage is designed by God to be between one man and one woman for life exclusively, then there's no surprises when people get here. Also, the Christians who are looking for a new church know where we stand, like, okay, this is a faithful church. They're they're adhering to biblical orthodoxy and the traditional teachings of the church. Got it, we'll go. Uh, but but for people who have been in the LGBT community or who have been involved in LGBT, they look at that and go, like, wait, what does that mean? Am I going to be like looked at sideways, judged, pushed out, told I can't be there? Like, so so some pastors like we don't put that stuff on our on our website. We don't we don't talk about it. So I got a pastor not long ago who was saying he's got some uh gay couples at his church, and he was like, he's like, I actually I don't I don't know that they know where we stand, and I kind of like it that way. And I was like, I totally get that. That makes total sense because you want to evangelize these people and have them come to Jesus. But I also thought, what but what happens? Is are they gonna feel like there's been a bait and switch because now they've spent a year or two or whatever developing relationships, finding community, thinking that this is that this community is embracing this part of their lives. And then, you know, they say, Hey, by the way, I'd like to lead a Bible study. And you say, Well, no, you you can't because you don't adhere to you have to meet these certain standards. Now, now suddenly they're like kind of thrust into a different place. And I think that can be, especially if they've experienced some some traumas in their life earlier on around their sexuality, that can re-traumatize even if you don't mean it to.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

So you feel like a betrayal, like it could feel like the rug's being pulled out potentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah. So pastors are experiencing some real tension points here. Um likewise, to speak too graciously about the topic of pornography, for example, from the pulpit. Well, how does that play for the spouse who whose first marriage was destroyed because the husband was unrepentant and ended up looking at pornography all the time and ended up leaving for another person? Like there's just a lot of muddy waters, complex waters to talk through. So it makes sense that a lot of churches are quiet about it. And you know, at least then I'm not gonna make a mistake. At least then I'm not gonna potentially hurt somebody. But we just want to make the the we want to say to pastors listening, and um, and well, I'll say something to pastors, and I'll say something to just the average Joe listening. Pastors, if you're listening, one of things we want to tell you is that your silence actually is speaking to those in your congregation who struggle and it's not seeking something good. It's seeking something about it's it says to them that they don't belong. It says to them you don't see them, you don't know they're there, and you don't want them there. Uh and for those of you listening, if your pastor's been silent, we hope you hear in this, this doesn't mean you don't belong. It doesn't mean your pastor doesn't care. It means he's a human being like you are, and he's wrestling with how do how do I walk through these things. At least we hope that's what it means about them. Likely the case from the pastors we talk to. So anything you'd add to that, James?

Silence Speaks Louder Than Sermons

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Well, and just that if you're at a church context where this isn't being talked about and that is a sticking point for you, that doesn't mean hey, you should just jump ship. Um, obviously the Lord leads in different ways, but more often than not, he seems to invite people deeper into being a prayerful influence, a lovingly prayerful, humble influence. Not, hey, I demand that you uh you change your ways, Pastor, but someone who can actually begin praying into this. And I mean, really, pastors have so many things that are going through their minds. They're caring for someone on their deathbed, and then they're prepping a sermon, and then they're meeting with a leader who's struggling, and then I mean, there's just so many different things. And so we want to be actually gracious to recognize just because a pastor isn't in a place right now where they're sharing about it doesn't mean hey, that that church is toxic or something and you need to leave. But it doesn't mean that you should just, you know, it it might be a purpose an invitation to purful engagement in some sort of way.

Start With Follow Me Not Labels

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, good. Hey, so so here's here's the reframe we want to we want to introduce to you. Here's if we were writing a prescription, and and by the way, I I it full disclosure, part of what we're doing right now as as a ministry is we've we've re-emphasized our our call and our connection to our church here uh locally, we want to do a better job of serving local churches because we know this is happening. So we're we're being a a lot more intentional about connecting with pastors and and and we're hearing some of these questions. And so even as we do this podcast, our hope is that we're working through some of these things to ourselves, bringing the wisdom that we've garnered from the 45 plus years of our ministry into like the real life of real churches. So um, you're hearing it raw. You're hearing us work through it even as we talk through some of these things. But here's here's the first reframe we want to offer. Um we want to suggest that part of what happens for pastors who get hung up in this area and they don't know what to say is that they are being pushed to answer a question that actually is not the most important question for them to answer. And I think the easiest way to get after that is to look specifically at the whole topic of LGBT stuff. We know that pastors are being asked the question by their congregants across the spectrum. So, you know, congregants who are raising young kids and saying, hey, I want to make sure I'm raising my kid in a in a in a church that holds to biblical orthodoxy and you're not straying on the area of sexuality. Like, what do you believe? They're also being pushed from from people who have wrestled with LGBT stuff or who are wrestling or who have loved ones and say, Hey, I want to be able to bring my my daughter, I want to be able to bring my neighbor here. Is this a church that's welcoming to LGBT people? Um really important questions. The the problem with the question, we understand why people ask it out of the gates, and you're gonna have to figure out how to how to answer those questions in a in a in a winsome and truthful way. But the problem is that it's it's not the it's not the the best place to begin. And so in in my mind, as I've heard this over the years, I think in some ways the enemy has kind of poised this question as a litmus test, you know, one of two ways, in order to entrap pastors and churches so that they can't do the work of the church. And so I just want to say, like, as much as you can, don't buy that bait. Uh so let me give you this example as a as a as a parable of it, I think. Jesus, the beginning of his ministry, he's preaching, he gets into Peter's boat, says, Hey, go, you know, cast your nets off the that into the deep waters. They do, they have this big catch of fish. And Peter is struck to the core. Something happens in Peter in that moment where he realizes he is in the presence of an incredibly holy, godly man. And all he can do is fall down in his boat at Jesus' feet and say, Depart from me, Lord, I'm a sinful man. And Jesus' response to him, and this is what I want to get after here, Jesus doesn't take that bait. Jesus does not answer Peter's concern. Instead, he just says to him, Come and follow me, and I will make you a fisher of men. Now, for me, I'm there in that situation, and I want to know wait, hold on, I'm getting ready to invite this guy along with me. What sin are you talking about? Like, what's going on for you? What's happening here? Like, um, can we discuss this? Like, maybe you'll feel better if you get off your chest, you know, like I mean, all that stuff. Uh, all legitimate questions. And and maybe Jesus had those questions with him offline at another time. I don't know. But I just want to I want to put that in front of you as that said the the worldly concern about do you think it's a sin or not? Do you think I'm good enough to be here or not, is not where Jesus typically begins with people. His his initial concern, his initial point is be with me, follow me, come with me. So how can we, how can you as pastors, how can we as church leaders, as how can we as Christians in the in the church, in the local church, position ourselves more and more to a watching world, to a concerned world, to loved ones, to people visiting, uh, to concerned um parents, to wrestling kids, I mean to struggling kids, like how can we poise ourselves more and more to be uh people who winsomely invite people just come come and be with us, come and see, come and follow. James, initial response to that. Is that dodging a bullet, or is it like, no, no, no, nobody can do that? Like that doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Well, I do think these questions need to be reoriented, Josh. Like, I think um one of the clearest questions, and you might have been just saying a version of this, but like, do you think LGBT blank X, you know, is a sin? Do you think that and then what they actually often mean by that, whether it's a pastor being asked on a news program or maybe someone coming to your church and and asking you this uh after an interest meeting or something like that, they mean something like, do you believe that I'm going to hell if I have this kind of view or if I have these kinds of struggles, or if my loved one does? And so I can see in some of these questions that we're not starting in the right place. We're not actually starting with an understanding in in the case of my question, well, what is sin? How do we understand these kinds of things? Um yeah, so there I think there's just a lot of ways that if the if the playing field is set by these types of questions and we just feel like we've got to engage it one for one, uh we're not actually probably starting at the right place, like you're saying.

Side A Side B Side X Side Y

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah, and and I'd add, I mean, like it's a normal part of anybody entering any group to be asking the fundamental question do I do I belong here? Will I be accepted here? I mean, that's that's actually, I would say, a God-given desire and need when people enter a situation. I mean, you know, think about the last time you're invited to a a dinner with some people you didn't know. That's really a question percolating on the surface. Like, are these my people? Will I fit here? Will they like me? Will I like them? Like, um, so some of the questions around like what do you believe about this, one way or the other, is asking the question Do I f do I fit here? Will I be comfortable here? Will I like it here? Will I believe that this is my place? It's hard. It's a hard, hard spot for a church to be in. Like, um, yeah. So, James, I want you I want you for our listeners, just because I because of the the other nuance of the LGBT thing is is churches asking the questions like or people being asked asking churches like are you side A, side B, side X, side Y? A lot of our listeners and some pastors don't know that. I think that could be a helpful frame up. Um, just uh even even to to introduce some of the like it's not just black and white or binary, they're actually multiple things of ways that different churches are approaching this. Uh yeah. And also shut my blinds because I it's kind of funny, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

So they were in your face. Um yeah, basically, um people who have been trying to figure out how to reconcile views on LGBT with uh Christianity have been put into these different categories. Um and Josh, I actually think I'm pretty sure you don't love these categories. So I'd love to hear more about that after. But um, but if someone were to come and and have these in mind, like they've they've Googled something and they heard about these four different options, um, side A would be an affirming church, a church that believes that um same-sex relationships uh potentially monogamous, it it probably has some variance within each type of side A church. Again, this is not really even four exact clear categories, but people who affirm that uh two men could be married for life or something like that, um, and and engage in sexual behavior, at least in that context. But again, sometimes there's variance on that. Uh side B would be those who believe that Christians are inextricably gay or straight. And so um Josh and I actually just you might have heard a couple weeks ago we just did a podcast on this very topic of uh what do we make of the words heterosexuality, homosexuality, gay, straight. Uh but basically side B would say, hey, you're born with these desires, these aren't gonna have any shift. And so, but you have to hold to the biblical view of not engaging in same-sex behaviors. So you've got to be celibate for your for your life. And it's basically trying to find a balance between uh being faithful to the commands in scripture while also saying these categories are are set, they're they're set in stone. Um, to jump over Y for a second, all the way to X, side X would say something like, Well, actually, no, your desires are not inherent. And as you're processing through your wounds and maturity gaps and things like that, God can align your desires with your biology. And you can experience attraction to the opposite sex, even if that's not been your experience up until this point. Uh, side wise, it's kind of between B and X. It's kind of saying, yes, uh, desires shift, but we don't necessarily prescribe a shift. We don't assume a shift. There's a lot of complex factors into it. But I guess side Y is almost like a slightly more pastoral thing than side X, where it's trying to say you can these things do happen. For example, the founder of our ministry did experience a shift in his desires from men to his wife. Um, but we don't necessarily prescribe that miracle. For every single person. And that might even be a slight misspeaking about side X, where like, hey, you're prescribing a miracle or you're praying the getaway. Again, people straw man all four of these, really. And so we got to recognize that that's happening all the time. Uh, there's actually watchdog sites, Josh. I think we've come across that put us in in these categories. I think even you, they put in a different category than Alan, even though that's not necessarily true. So there's all these ways that people are trying to understand. I mean, part of it's understanding, am I going to be safe here? Am I going to be accepted here? And so they're trying to say what, which of these four categories do you fit in? And does that align with what I what I believe?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Right. Yeah. And I think that's and that's why I struggle with those categories. Because the the outside of side A, which I just disagree with, I bib, the Bible's clear, Christian teaching's been clear on this, our biology is clear on this. Uh, whole nother topic. But uh side B, X, Y, like they, they're each each is has has their eye on something that's important. Uh and if if we if we had to pick one, I'd say, you know, regen probably falls more squarely into side Y, believing that that uh sexual attractions can change and they don't always, uh, but certainly behaviors can shift, our sense of our identity can shift, all those things.

Put Sexuality Under Discipleship

SPEAKER_01 24:05

So um anyway, well, and part of why we believe that part well, part of why we believe that, Josh, is one is we do want to recognize these are really complex waters. So we're not actually disagreeing with Side X in its orthodox beliefs. What we're disagreeing with sometimes maybe is like how do we approach it pastorally again, and and that might even be a more gray area than than we'd like. But part of what we're also trying to say is we're all in these categories. This isn't, these aren't um desires shifting, desires being matured, which is what the old saints would call virtue, growth in virtue, uh desiring what is good. That's what virtue is. That needs to shift for all of us. And so we actually believe that, and again, you can look back a couple weeks, we'll have it in the show notes as well, that heterosexuality, homosexuality are terms uh created basically 150 years ago um to describe things that have never had a scientific validation to them. They've never been scientifically proven, namely that you're either born gay or you're born straight. We're actually all born into this fallen world with disordered desires, whether it be in the sexual realm, whether it be quote unquote straight desires or quote unquote gay desires. Right. But we actually all need healing, help, maturity. We all need to become whole. It's an invitation for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah. So that leads us right into what would be the reframe, you know, one of the primary reframes we'd want to, we'd want to frame up for churches when it comes to how do we navigate some of these topics, how do we navigate some of these difficult questions? We don't have answers on for everything. And and I actually do trust that the body of Christ is diverse, there are many different parts, and so churches may navigate some of these things differently. Uh whole other topic there. But but as far as like how do you navigate how our church holds this, what we put on our website, what we don't, when we talk about these things, when we don't. But wherever you are, here's here's the reframe. What we would prescribe is that as much as you can, as much as you can, if you're in a position of church leadership, you want to position the topics of sexuality around discipleship, growing in Christ-likeness. So instead of it just being a what's my stance on this, what do we believe is true about that, which matters because if you're and they're related, right? Like if you are going to disciple someone towards Christ-likeness, it truly matters what Christ is like. It truly matters what Christ teaches. It truly matters what uh what Christ says is true. So you have to know the truth, you have to be rooted and grounded in what's true. But if all your conversation around sexuality is like those three things I mentioned, like thou shalt not, or we don't talk about it, or if you do those things or that, that those are just truth claims, true or not, you know, like that, they're just truth claims. What you want to do as much as possible is when you talk about sexuality, you talk about it in the realm of discipleship. So uh let me give you a different different way to frame this up. And this might be even a cultural or a pastoral or a preaching shift for your church in general if you want to do this well. If the goal of all that we do is to help our people grow in Christ-likeness, so they become like Christ, they follow Christ, and they do what Christ does in their life. I think that's a worthy goal, a life worth, lifetime-worthy goal of any church, then everything you teach about, every topic you address is going after it in that way. How do we help people? So we're talking about money. Well, do you use your money like Jesus would if he were you? Are you using your money in a Christ-like way? We're talking about parenting. Do you parent in a Christ-like way? Uh, and by the way, that's that's another shift from kind of the the on off. Like so many parents live under under condemnation, frankly, because their kids aren't following Jesus like they should, or their kids are making decisions. What would it be like if if churches were were less focused on we're gonna tell you how to parent so your kids turn out perfect, and they were more focused on we want to teach you how to parent like Jesus, um, which is gonna be different.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, and it's gonna look like getting after the heart, like it's gonna look like hey, we all have these desires that are not actually aligned when I mean just thinking about kids, Josh. I'm sure you having uh six kids have a lot of examples, but there are all kinds of ways that you long to help cultivate your kids' heart. And it can be so easy to be like, they just need to be in this pristine place. But actually, even that is more off is always, unless you're Jesus, it's always got brokenness underneath it, right? It's always got disordered loves, it's always got places of misalignment. And so that actually I think it's actually a really encouraging way to understand sin and development. It's like we all are in this boat of needing uh growth in these areas.

Identity Worship And The Integrity Diamond

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah. So let me keep going. Like we're gonna we're gonna teach about marriage. And so let's let's teach about do you do you love your spouse like Christ uh does? Uh parenting, what about the single life? When we teach about singleness, let's teach about are you a single, do you live out your single life in a Christ-like way? Uh do you follow Jesus? Do you walk with Jesus? Are you becoming like Jesus as a single? And Jesus was single, by the way. So shout out to all the singles out there. Uh we admire you, we need you in the body of Christ. Um, how about pain? We're going to talk about pain. Uh is your pain forming you into Christ-likeness? Do we approach it in a Christ-like way? Do we hold it in a Christ-like way? We're we're walking through pain with Jesus. We're we're following Jesus in our pain and we're uh becoming like Jesus and doing what he does in the area of pain. And he's got a lot of pain in his in his life. What about longings and desire? Whatever they are, you know, longings for the the great job or the spouse or the the home or the boat or whatever it is. Are you navigating those in a Christ-like way? And can we help you become more like Jesus in that area of your life? And then sex. Are you growing in Christ-likeness in the area of sex? So we're thinking about growing in Christ-likeness, whatever the area is, then it it does a couple things. One, it levels the playing field. And so now we're not just talking about like, are you in or are you out of this group? Right. Everybody's in this group. Yes. Even if you walked with Jesus for 100 years and people look at you and go, like, man, he's really like Jesus. Well, you ask that guy if he's really like Jesus, and he's gonna be telling you, yeah, I am really far from Jesus. How do I know that? Because those who walk closely with Jesus get more and more aware of the the the mo the the that stuff in their heart, the stuff that nobody else sees. It's like Paul at the end of his life with this, you know, I'm the worst of all sinners. Right. So so James, we gotta we gotta we're gonna land the plane in just a couple minutes on for this week. Next week, we want to get into a bit more of kind of practically speaking, what does that look like for a church? And practically speaking, as I'm in this church, what does that mean for me? How do I kind of navigate this stuff? So we'll get a little bit more practical next week. But but what else would you want to say as we're thinking about just kind of the reframe? Like, is that you think that's doable for most churches? Like legitimately, like we're gonna, you know, we're gonna talk to churches in the next over the next 12 months, prescribing some things. Is this a helpful shift for churches, do you think?

A Challenge To Pastors And Members

SPEAKER_01 31:29

I think that the discipleship lens is so key because Josh, when I think about some of the major things we're trying to get after as coaches who are helping people move away from sexual sin and brokenness and toward intimacy with Jesus. Josh, there's so many things. Um, one point I created a, you know, I love to create documents and I created something I call the sexual integrity diamond, trying to distill so much of what I've learned from my almost decade now being connected to regen. And I was like, I look through these things, community is so key, being connected to others, right? I look at things like what does it mean to the point of the diamond, if you will, that the union with Jesus that we're invited to, um, how does identity play out? Sexuality really has to do, especially with union, identity, connection. I mean, these are things that anyone who's discipling people is, you know, whether directly or indirectly, I'm not saying it's always at the top of your mind, but union with Jesus, identity in Jesus, connection to Jesus and others, those are key discipleship things. So is worship. We often say um at awaken, uh, we we do worship every week um over YouTube, not ideal. Uh occasionally we'll have one of our leaders uh play live, which is great. But part of why we do worship is because part of what's happening when we're dealing with sexual sin, let's just say pornography, there is this element, um, and this is pulling a little bit from Calvin, where it's like we've made an idol out of both the pleasure that we're bringing ourselves and maybe the man or woman on the screen. And so we're trying to gently invite people, hey, look toward Jesus. Like, what does he look like? Look at his radiance, look at his beauty. So, Josh, I just think that there's so many ways that sexuality can be an inroad into all these broader categories of discipleship. But yeah, it's discipleship. Like it's growing in Christ-like maturity, it's growing in our love. I mean, Paul literally, I'll I'll close my little thing here with this. He literally says to Timothy, the purpose of my instruction, I take that as like, this is what all my writing is about. Purpose of my instruction is that believers would be filled with love. Simple as that. And he goes on to say, love looks like a pure heart, clear conscience, genuine faith. So he's got some ways that we grow in love, right? But that is what it's about. And so it when it comes to sexuality, when it comes to money, when it comes to relationships, parenting, whatever, this is about how do we develop the love of Jesus in those areas.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yep. Love it. I love that. All right, so here's a closing thought. Whoever you are listening, so for the pastors or church leaders, smart group leaders listening, is this your ambition? To pastor, to preach, to run the day-to-day, deal with the money of the church, whatever it is, whatever your role is there, are you seeking to become more like Jesus in how you do these things? And I've had the privilege over the last year to uh preach a number of times in my church, and that's a that's a sobering question. Uh there is so much temptation around preaching. It can feel so good to want to get out of boys or kudos from people or to hear that the sermon was good. One of things that sobers me is how uh how little sermons can do and how little we know about the effect of a sermon. You know, like even Jesus said, you know, the sower goes out to sow and he throws this the seed, and then stuff happens. It's so you know like I I've I've told people like, man, if you really want to compliment me on a sermon, like come back to me a year later and tell me like what it's what it's done in your life, right? So yeah. Um, but it but in what ways are we like I so uh I'll I'll be a little vulnerable here. I remember giving a talk. This is some years ago now, but I remember giving a talk uh in in at a conference in front of a group of people, and I and I walked away and I was just I was literally thanking the Lord. I was I don't think I was being proud, but I was thanking the Lord because I had so much fun. I thought I really knocked it out of the park, did a great job answering the questions from people that were there. Uh and the still small sport of still small voice of the Lord responded to me with, You didn't love people very well though, did you? Well but it's like, oh Lord, I didn't. I didn't. I was kind of wrapped up in how I was doing. Like, you know, like and it was and his you know, I knew it was the Lord because it didn't feel condemning, it felt invitation, like you know, almost like it's not even saying you shouldn't have had fun.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

You didn't say, dude, how could you have had fun you weren't loving? It was like, yeah, and like, but yeah, it was love and sorry.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

It was kind of invitational, like I want to help you grow here, so I got to point it out to you. So, pastors, are you seeking and and and I and I bring it up in the context of talking about sexuality because there are people in your congregations who are who are struggling and they're they're struggling in secret, they're afraid of being found out, they're carrying immense amounts of shame. Some of them are dealing with it in an addictive level and they're just they're being rebellious. It's not uh they know they're doing it's wrong and they're choosing not to say anything about it and choosing to continue to do it. All of them, wherever they are, there are spouses and family members who are deeply suffering because they know what's happening for their loved ones and and they they don't know what to do about it. There are wives sitting in your congregations whose husbands are looking at porn who wish you would say something and they're just feeling horrible at themselves, like something's wrong with them because of what their husbands are doing. So there's so much And vice versa, by the way. Yeah, vice versa. That's right. I'm sorry, yeah. Absolutely. So there's so much need. And so I'm putting it in front of you to say, like, are you seeking to grow to become more like Jesus? More, more, like giving more Christ-like love to your congregation? If so, the area of sexuality is such an important need for every single man, woman, and your kid in your in your congregation. And we're here to help. Now, if you're listening and you're going, like, yeah, you know, tell the pastor, like I've been, I'm one of those people that have been my my question for you is are you seeking to be a parishioner? Are you seeking to be a member of a church and in your membership, in your involvement in the church to become more Christ-like in how you listen to a sermon, and how you show up to church, and how you serve there? Uh this is our calling too. We live in a consumeristic culture and we pick church based on preference. Do I like the worship? Am I comfortable there? The people look like me, how close to my home is it? All that stuff. Like, and I would challenge, I think we are far off from the biblical model of being good members in churches because of our own preferences. And so even as you struggle, instead of sitting in judgment, instead of sitting wounded and self-pitying as you're wrestling with these things, are you seeking to grow in Christlikeness as you struggle? Are you seeking to grow in Christlikeness as you feel alone? Like, are you doing what you can to reach out to get the help you need so that you can come to church and and and be an active member? And I say all this with compassion, you know, like again, going back to Peter in the boat, Jesus didn't say, like, become more like me, see you later. He said, come, come follow me. So the invitation here, regen is if you're in a if you're a pastor, if you're a parishioner, if you're wrestling with any of these ways, like the door's open here. We are here for you. We like to be involved with you in that way. But the call for all of us, including James and me, as we sit in this seat doing this podcast today, is are we seeking in what we're doing to become more like Jesus? And there's no area, I believe, more important in this day and age than to do that in the area of sexuality. And I think as we reframe church in that way, it helps to level the playing field, whether we're pastor, parishioner, struggling sexually, hurting by somebody else's sexuality, never struggled a day in the area of sexuality in my life. Like wherever we come to conversation around sexuality, all of us need to grow in Christ-likeness. James, any final word?

Resources And Closing Prayer

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Well, yeah, I just want to also mention um, Josh, you're not a you don't love marketing stuff, but I just got to mention we do have some awesome resources uh for those struggling to bring into church context. We have manna for men, oasis for women, and um compass for wives who've experienced betrayal, things that you could get a group of five or six people around you and say, hey, I'm I'm on this journey. Would you come with me and uh go through these eight weeks of content? And we're happy to support you in that journey as well. So um those those are there too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah. And if you're if you're a church leader and you're like, I do have a heart, I don't know where to begin, like reach out to us. Those those programs might be a great place for you to to gather some people and begin. Or there might be some other things that you can help even get that conversation started. So, Jesus, um, we just offer this podcast to you humbly. We pray for each man, woman, pastor, lady, person listening, that you would meet them. And and what's the next step? What's the one next thing, Lord, that you're asking of them as they come to as they are following you? What's the one next thing in the area of sexuality where you're inviting them to grow in in Christ likeness? Thank you, Lord, that your yoke is easy and your burden is light. Teach us how to walk with you. That we be shouldering whatever the area of burden we're carrying uh with you. And we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen.