Church Culture and Sexuality Part 2

“Are you affirming?” might be the most common question churches get about sexuality and it’s also one of the easiest traps to fall into. We want to be clear on historic Christian teaching about marriage, singleness, celibacy, and chastity, but we also want to lead with the better invitation: come follow Jesus, and let him reshape every part of your life. That shift changes the entire atmosphere, especially for people who feel like their sexual struggles make them unwelcome at church. 

We dig into why sexuality is not just a “hot button issue” but a doorway into some of the deepest discipleship available. Beneath behaviors are questions about desire, identity, self-mastery, wounds, relationships, and what we’re truly thirsty for. We talk about Jesus and the woman at the well as a picture of truth and grace in the same moment, and why avoiding the topic often means missing a powerful opportunity for heart transformation. 

Then we get practical for church leaders and members: should a church put its stance on sexuality on the website, or keep it relational?  We also explore leadership and membership decisions, from serving on teams to eldership, and why different roles require different standards. Using 1 Thessalonians 5:14, plus scriptures from Titus and 1 Timothy, we argue for holding both clear qualifications and process-based growth, including humility, truth-telling, and knowing when it’s wise to step down for the sake of care and integrity. 

If you’re trying to navigate sexual discipleship with wisdom, clarity, and real compassion, listen now. Subscribe, share with a pastor or friend, and leave a review so more churches can find a better way forward.

🗓️ Upcoming:

You’re invited to Regeneration’s Annual Sweet & Savory Fundraiser on Saturday, April 11, at 6:30 PM at McLean Presbyterian Church. Join us for an encouraging evening of real stories and renewed hope as we celebrate how Christ is bringing healing and restoration through the ministry of Regeneration.  To learn more, register, or host a table RSVP here.

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Welcome back, everybody. Hey, so this week we want to continue what we started last week. We're kind of trying to get into it, we're doing a two-part series. As regeneration takes more seriously, our call to serve the local church. Uh, one of the things that we're hearing from people is how do how do we respond to and how do we handle the whole area of LGBT stuff? We see that it it connects to a lot more in the area of sexual discipleship than just LGBT, but it's a it's a felt need. Like we want people who struggle with those things to come here and to come to Jesus. And at the same time, we want to be clear that this is our stance. And we we do that in a culture that's, you know, cancel culture, consumeristic culture, where people kind of pick and choose where they want to go based on what feels good to them. We do it in a in the context of uh recognizing that that people have a lot of sensitivities and and if you stand on one side or the other side of an issue, it means all sorts of things about you that you don't want people to think it means. So part of what we talked about last time was as much as you can as church leaders, and as much as you can as congregants who are seeking to be seeking to walk this stuff out well, make it your ambition to be growing in Christ-likeness. Make it your ambition to be growing in Christ-like love. And as much as a church can frame up their posture around the topics of sexuality, that we are seeking to help people grow in Christ-likeness, it levels the playing field and opens lots of doors. Because now it's not just this one group that needs to change what they're doing. It's all of us. We all need to grow in the area of sexuality. We all need to grow in Christ-likeness in every area of life. And definitely in our culture, this is one of those areas. So, James, what before we jump into this week's topic, we're gonna be a little more practical, kind of talking about like, you know, specific what are some specific things we'd invite churches to be thinking about and doing. Anything stand up to you from last week's podcast that you want to make sure we kind of pull and keep in people's minds as we start today?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, just that that universal invitation to discipleship and seeing sexuality as like a submarine that takes you so deep into discipleship. That's that's the heartbeat of sexual discipleship, if you will. That's the heartbeat of what we're trying to get after, is that we want to actually go into those waters that can feel so murky. They look murky from the surface, the waters of sexuality, sexual brokenness, sexual sin, but actually as an inroad to some of the deepest possible discipleship around what does it mean to be what is desire, what do we do with desires? How do we get connected to people in a satisfying way? How do we what does it mean to have an identity rooted in God? What does it mean to be in union with Jesus? So these are some of the things that we're so passionate about and that actually aren't really different than what the local church is passionate about. We just have a very clear focus and call as a ministry to do that through the lens of sexuality.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Okay, if if we talked about that last week in last week's podcast, I don't remember it. That's fantastic. I mean, it's like okay, one, you've you just labeled like why I love working here so much this city. Yeah. But two, you're you're really letting people know with clarity. So, pastors, I hope you heard what James just said. Like, if you're neglecting the topic of sexuality because it's a difficult topic for your congregation, you are missing a great opportunity to get into some of the deepest waters of people's lives and their hearts. Like, do you want them to be transformed from the inside out in the area of Christ-likeness, then get into sexuality because it you'll get into self-image, you'll get into managing and having self-mastery over our bodies, you'll get into uh identity, you'll get into wounds, you'll get into desire, you'll get into cravings, you'll get into all sorts of things that are that are such good ground for growing in Christ-likeness.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

So and I gotta say, Josh, yeah, like pastors come through our door, not all of whom are struggling overtly with pornography, which by the way, I know that's unsettling to think. The stats are out there, though, that pastors struggle at a certain percentage with pornography. But but regardless of if that's a struggle or not, first of all, praise God for those who are actually willing to humble themselves and get after it. So if that is the struggle, keep coming, guys. Like this is so important. And yes, as you're doing the work on yourself, this is going to help you then um uh disciple your congregation. But also, people come through our doors because these are just really messy waters. There's brokenness in their background. They might not be actively struggling, but as again, as you're wanting to shepherd people, the more you're shepherded in these areas by Jesus, maybe through people like us at Regen or or other great organizations, you're gonna this is gonna be way more natural feeling to talk about these issues if you're uh diving into them on your own.

Clear Stance Without Taking The Bait

Should Churches Put It Online

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah. And and likewise, the corollary to that, if you're listening and you're not a pastor or a church leader, but you're struggling with your unwanted sexual behaviors and you go to church kind of feeling like I don't belong here. We want to say to you, if you are walking through recovery, if you are trying to deal with and grow in the area of your overcoming your unwanted sexual behaviors, you're actually doing some incredible discipleship. And I hope, I mean, especially if you're doing it with some help, you know, you're you're plugging into an organization or some expertise or a good therapist or a good coach or a good spiritual director who's got expertise in the area of sexuality and sexual wholeness. This is, I mean, it's just some fertile, fertile ground. And biblically, if I could, I'd I'd point to uh Jesus' interaction with the woman at the well as as one of the prime places that we see. Jesus does not like push somebody away from their sexual stuff, but he sees it as an inroad. He sees it as this, oh man, you are thirsty for something, and what you're thirsty for is really good. And he goes after that. That's such beautiful discipleship and evangelism all in one space for her. So anyway, uh James, again, I don't remember us talking about that last week, but you heard it and I love it. So uh we definitely have to include that as we're as we're talking to churches. This is such a great opportunity, yeah. And especially in our culture where sexuality is so confused and so everywhere. So uh man, it's not it's not an obstacle to be overcome. It is an opportunity for Jesus to do what he does best. So all right, very cool. All right, let's get into some nitty-gritty, let's get into some of the the practicals. Uh and I think I think the really the the prime category we want to get after this week is is uh if if we're looking at at the topic of sexuality in our churches, not through the binary lens of are you sinning or are you not sinning? Then then what's the alternative? So last week we said we're gonna we're gonna kind of say that that question, like, you know, are you side A, B, C, or I say, B, B, C, D, uh, A, B, X, Y when it comes to LGBT stuff? Are you affirming or non-affirming? Uh you know, what's your position on gay marriage? What's I mean, like do you mean uh or or how do you handle divorce? How do you handle extramarital? I mean, whether it's instead of just kind of like, hey, you you know, yes or no, that's bait. We're not we're not taking the bait. We're inviting people to come follow Jesus. Do we have a a solid stance? Absolutely, we do. Uh we we believe what scripture teaches, we believe in the historic teachings of the church as it relates to marriage, um, as it relates to singleness, as it relates to celibacy and chastity, those kinds of things. Uh but let's so so let's get into this question, James. One of the things we brought up last week is is the question do you put this on your website? Yeah. Like, you know, you have a set of beliefs on your website, what we believe, and some churches you go to, and you're like, oh, what do they believe about sexuality? And some people go to churches, it's kind of a litmus test for them. Like, what do they say about these things? Some churches address it on their website, some don't. What what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

I think uh that neon letter approach on the homepage is the best way to go. Uh we just No, I I really do believe that um part of hospitality, and and I'm curious where how you land on this, Josh, too, but part of hospitality can be a very clear statement of faith that includes at least one element. I mean, our statement is is 12 uh you know, 12 clauses. And one of our key 12 things that we believe creates Christian orthodoxy uh in a mere Christianity sense is man and woman made in the image of God. Um and uh sex genital sexuality is is exclusive to a man and woman in a lifelong marriage. So we actually present it in that kind of positive way. I also have seen churches who maybe they do that positive thing, but they also recognize that this is such a hot button thing in our culture, we're gonna do an additional addendum of, you know, some will do it on women in ministry for one, and then some will also do one on these sexual issues. And what's interesting, Josh, but what you brought up is if we just make an addendum that says we believe um those who engage in LGBT practices um are sinning, that would actually be missing the mark of, again, this fuller picture of sexuality we're trying to talk about. And so part of what I like about our simple approach on our statement of faith is that it's just a positive, clear if you're looking for it, you'll see it viewpoint that encompasses a lot of sexuality. But I can also see sometimes the value of the clarity of hey, we recognize there are whole various forms of sexual sin and brokenness. You mentioned basically a lot of the major categories, divorce or um LGBT struggles or or pornography. And so sometimes actually mapping that out a little bit can be a hospitable way. But again, what's limiting about a statement of faith, and this is what drives someone like you crazy, Josh, is like you're not actually hearing our hearts. There's no tone button for font. I mean, yeah, you could make the font all caps, that would actually be a certain tone right. But but doing all non-caps doesn't actually do the opposite effect of, hey, I'm being gentle and being because again, when we single out these particular sins, we can miss some of the mark of we're actually inviting all of us into this journey of growing in Christ-likeness and growing and desiring what Jesus desires and doing what Jesus did and loving like Jesus loved. So I feel a little bit of the tension, but I do lean toward the clear, hospitable approach to whatever degree.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah. Well, and it's just and uh a full disclosure as I asked the question, uh, I am so conflicted about this question.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Because um uh because of what you're talking about. And I know I I've talked with pastors who specifically because of you can't convey tone, that's why they do not put it on their website. What they really want is for people to come to meet them, to meet their tone, to see the look in their face, and then for the conversation to come up, for that question to come up.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

And when you say yes, Josh, are you saying, are you talking about that kind of like the clause we have, or are you talking about that more specific kind of addendum type thing I just described? Yeah, all the above.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Like, so they don't have a statement about sexuality in any way. Okay. Yeah. Um I knew one pastor who uh like he they they weren't clear on their website. He'd get calls from people even before they'd come, they'd say, hey, you know, or maybe I I visited this last week and I'm wondering if I should keep coming, but I want to know right now, like, you know, my my daughter's gay. Is this an affirming place for her? Would she be safe in your church? And his response, even in that phone call, was that's a really important question. I'm really glad you're asking it. Uh it's not something that I can answer for you in five minutes. Would you be willing to come and have coffee with me in my office? Or can I meet you somewhere for coffee and we can and we can talk about it? Because I want your daughter to feel safe here. Um but the the answer is a little bit more involved than just that. I got another guy in ministry um who when people ask him that question, he says, Hey, you know, and this is he's not a pastor, so this is just a so this for you parishioners out there, like, you know, uh he he'll say to people, hey, that's a that's a really there's a lot to that question, uh, that and it's really involved actually. Uh I recognize you're probably asking more than just that question when you ask it. Yeah. Uh and so I I typically, because it's a hot butt question, I typically don't talk about it with everybody, just my the people who are really close to me. So would you be willing to like, like, let's just be friends and as our friendship grows, like, you know, then we'll talk about it. I appreciate the heart of both of those things. It doesn't work for everybody. So I I I tend to hold about this question that I don't know that there's a right or wrong way to do it. It may be a matter of how is it, what's going to work best for your church. But I think for every church, there needs to be on some level uh uh clarity about why you're doing it and an aim to be Christ-like. So, in other words, if I could be specific about that, whether you put something on your site, I mean like you use the word hospitality. So your your aim is I I don't want people to have feel like they've had a bait and switch when they come here. I want people to feel like they they know where our position is, and I want them to feel loved when they come. That if that's your motive, great. And then check it over time. Like, are people coming? Like, is it working? Is it uh, you know, are there other ways you're getting people in the door who aren't necessarily checking that or who that's not a stopping point for them?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Believe it or not, not everyone's like me, Josh, who looks at the statement of faith. And by the way, I actually probably wouldn't have gone to my current church if I didn't have find some inkling on the statement of faith that they hold to orthodoxy in this issue, because you you don't know unless there's something there.

Leadership Standards And Discipleship Process

SPEAKER_01 13:48

But yeah, yeah, yeah. So pre parishioner or pastor alike, I think you know what's your heart is your heart to grow in Christ-likeness. Um and I think I think how you can go that. So here's here's one thing I would say. If you want to put something in your site, I I would offer a couple suggestions because I think it can be such a stopping point. I think something about kind of like how we're all in process in this way. We all struggle in this way. No one is is um isolated or siloed for a particular uh struggle in their in their sexuality here. We are all people on level ground pursuing Christ-likeness in the way that we manage our sexual desires, maybe even admission, acknowledgement, like sexual desires are powerful, very complex and and difficult. And we see them not as a a marker that says you belong here, you don't, more as a as a as a discipleship, uh, an area of discipleship that we're all seeking to grow in. So something that that kind of extends at least for the people of goodwill will reading, that that you recognize that this is a sensitive area and you want to be sensitive, and you are holding that not just truth, but truth and grace in in how you manage it. Yeah. So that leads to this the next category, and this is the only one we'll have more time for today, but what about in the way that you approach it for those who are members in your church or for those who are attending your church, the people who come regularly to church? How do we address this? What about questions of leadership? What about like, you know, hey, can I be on the worship team if I am X, Y, and Z? Um, can I be, can I lead a Bible study? Can I help with the car wash or the fundraiser? Can I be an elder? Can I preach? Can I, you know, um, can I do analysis? Uh that's another area I think a lot of pastors would would disagree on and and wrestle with.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Um you have a detailed plan for each of those like 10 categories, right, Josh? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

It's so complicated, man. Yeah, there's so many like layers to the leadership and membership structures in a church, aren't there?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah. Well, and so I I want to be, I want I think it might help for people listening to know, like even at regeneration, for our staff, we have a list of standards. And some of them are specifically rated related to sexual conduct. But I'm gonna tell you in a minute why we have that. We have something similar for volunteer leaders here. Those standards are different for people who are up in front of people. They're different for people who do one-to-one coaching or direct pastoral care work than they are for uh a bookkeeper or someone who's answering phones. Um, but everybody is still looking at a at a list of standards. Uh but as we've done that, there have been multiple times through the history of our organization where those like we've we've had problems with the standards. And we've had to either adjust them or personalize them depending on a circumstance. And I think it just goes to the that realm of like, you know, if we're trying to live according to some law, like, you know, it's just these, this is the list, this is how it works. We're gonna run into situations where this isn't working. So I think here, one of my favorite passages, first Thessalonians 5 14. I'm gonna read it for you. And we urge you, brothers and sisters, admonish the idle, encourage the faint-hearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. So this is the if you're thinking about the realm of discipleship, discipleship is not about truth claims. It's not just about reaching a certain point. It's like we said last week about Peter, when Jesus invited Peter, and Peter recognized I'm in the presence of a holy man uh and and said, Depart from me, Jesus' response wasn't, Well, what sin are you talking about? Why should I leave? Like his response was, You follow me, and you're going to become, as you follow me, you're going to become a fisher of men. It was it was a process-based response to Peter. What Paul's writing in 1 Thessalonians 5 here is also process-based. Depending on where someone is, you're going to treat them differently. So if they're idle, if they're just lazy, not get stuff done, admonish them. If they're faint-hearted, if they're weary, encourage them. If they're weak, help them. He doesn't say admonish the faint-hearted. He doesn't say encourage the weak. He's got a different prescription for each. And so James, respond to that. What how does that strike you as you're thinking about kind of discipleship in the area of sexuality in someone's church?

Process Based Care From 1 Thessalonians

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I mean, one thing worth noting is that and I do actually want to bring up some of like the elder passages, Josh, from Titus, 1 Timothy, and even 1 Peter, because there are some, there's a mixture of both these kind of like, I forget what term you just used, but kind of results-based standards, like, are you up to these standards? And then there's process standards, like, or things that you need to be in development with. And so I think it's really helpful to recognize that different layers of leadership. And this is where it gets complex, right? Because we're not necessarily today going to give you, hey, at the top level, do this, at the middle level, do this, at the lowest level, do this. But we do have to recognize that there are different levels that Paul and Jesus and Peter all recognize. Think about Peter. Peter went in the boat, right? And then a couple of years later, three years with Jesus, he's still quick to anger, which by the way, wouldn't would go against uh one of the elder expectation lists from Paul. We know he's quick to anger because he cuts off someone's ear. Now, all right, was it anger? I don't know exactly the motives are hard. But the point is, if you're about to cut off someone's ear out of out of you know anger or fear or whatever, you're probably you probably don't want too many ear cutters on your elder team. I'll just say in that kind of funny way. But but then Peter is later on this incredible pillar, this guy who we can probably surmise was everything an elder's meant to be in terms of standards, but also has a heart of growth and he's growing in Christ-like this. I mean, 1 Peter 5, Josh, one of my absolute favorite passages. Yeah, he might be assuming that Paul's standards are in the background for some people, or some sort of circulated standards for elders are there. But a lot of his admonition in 1 Peter 5 are more of these like encouragements, like, hey, realign, like shepherd the flock, exercising oversight, not under compulsion. So if you're feeling like, oh man, I'm tired of being an elder, I'm kind of I've been doing this, I just should do it, but I don't really want to. He's like, no, actually, it's really important your heart is turning toward being willing. And so he doesn't say, if you're not willing, you're disqualified immediately. He says, come come back to the willingness, come back to Jesus and be willing. So I don't know, I think it's really interesting to reflect on. I think we're all in process, elders and apprentices, if you will, like Peter on the boat, Peter with the sword, but also elder Peter, all in process, all growing in Christ-likeness. And yet there are some of these kind of there are bridges and there are walls. Because your leadership has such a big impact. It's such a witness to what Jesus is like. We're not going to do it perfectly, and only Jesus is the perfect one. But if you are quick to anger, overbearing, prone to drunkenness, violent, right, you you actually should not be in this role at this time. You're still an apprentice, you're still in process, you're still beloved, but you shouldn't be an elder at this time.

Elder Qualifications And Growth Over Time

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Yeah. Yeah. I I think if I could put what you're saying a little bit differently, I would say the what scripture outlines for us, if we're looking at the whole of scripture, if we're just looking at a list, then we're just looking at a list, a list of standards. But does your church set up its standards based on something arbitrary, something about optics, uh something that just is, you know, what we found in the Bible? Uh or are the standards set up as this is an outward sign of an inner life that is Christ like? And then does your church have within its discipleship kind of pipelines, or or do the people who disciple in your church, whether it's a preacher or a small group leader or somebody who walks with teens one to one, whatever, do they have within themselves some process based ideas of Of what it looks like for someone to be growing towards those standards. And then even as they adhere to those standards, continuing to grow in Christ-likeness. So in other words, the standards are in place, not because it says something exclusive about this type of person, quote unquote, but rather it it's an outward indicator of something hopefully that's happening in the heart, but it's not the only indicator that's important. Yeah. Like so, you know, like if if I can check off every standard for leadership, but my heart is proud about that, well, that's a problem. And so one of the things I'm looking for when I think about leaders at regen, I'm looking for, I'm thinking more about processed-based goals. I'm thinking about process based, like, do I see, for example, one of the things I I've said for a long time when it comes to leaders, we want, we want people who are absolutely committed to telling the truth about where they are, inside and out. So if I've got somebody coming to a to a meeting over and over again, and every week that person's confessing to their slips, they're talking about temptation and they're talking about what they're learning and how they're growing, versus a person who comes every week and says, I've been doing great, no false report. The person I'm gonna trust more over time is that first person because they're opening their heart, they're sharing their process, and I know they're gonna tell me the truth. Um now, if the if the second person is saying, like, hey, I have no false report, and I've experienced temptation this week, I know it's connected to this, or Jesus has helped me grow in this other area, and I want to be humble about that. Can I bring that here? That's all process-based stuff. I'm watching them can be be humble as they seek to grow in Christ-likeness. That's what I want to know. Can I see things in your life that indicate to me that you're seriously devoted to Jesus? And where you're not, you're seeking to become more like him. And if I can see some of those things, then those standards really they don't mean as much. So that's that's one category. The other category is, and this is this is why I said we have we have standards that are different for people in different roles here, because the moment that you are responsible for the care of somebody else's soul, it's all the more important that you are healthy in in areas of your life that are going to intersect that person's soul. That you're self-aware enough, that your relationships are solid enough, that you've got a network to reach out to and hold on to. Those things are even more important when you're caring for somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

So Josh, I think of uh Yeah, go ahead. Um, who totally is uh I don't think she's actually an elder, but she's got that level of maturity. She's got such a shepherd's heart. And I remember in her story, I actually interviewed her on Becoming Whole last June. She talks about how what happened with, she was living um in a lesbi in lesbian relationships for about a decade in her 20s or so. She begins to be invited to this church, and all she knows is that these people love her and that she's beginning to consider what does it mean to walk with Jesus and love him. That was in her early 30s. She's she's much further along now, we'll say her age or anything on this podcast. Sorry, Kyle, for putting you on blast, but but there's but there's a beauty in recognizing she was in this discipleship process of having her heart oriented toward Jesus. She, I don't, I don't, I didn't know her back then. I actually wasn't alive, but um she she would have probably been someone who might have been able to be kind of an apprentice leader even in that season. She's coming alive in Jesus, and she's beginning to be oriented toward Jesus more than anything else. But that doesn't necessarily mean that even at that time she should have been like said, hey, you should lead our church now, you should be an elder, you should, because as important as that process, there's still so much more maturity that God was doing over the next decades. So, and also you brought up this idea of law, and it made me think of law spirit. Like, yeah, it can be important to have clear things. Like if you're prone to drunkenness, violent, right? If you're not hospitable, according to Titus, you know, Paul speaking to Titus, you're not qualified to be an elder. But if those things are just like, okay, I got to check off these legal requirements, we're missing the heart of Jesus. I mean, he came to bring the spirit, not to um uh get rid of the law and its moral application, but actually to say, that only takes you so far, man. Like lust, you you think you're you're not uh struggling with adultery? Well, actually, all that lust in your heart, it's the same root that ends up bearing the fruit of adultery, whether, you know, in whatever way. And so Jesus is saying, look, the heart orientation matters even more. Now, yeah, the law can show kind of some of what's going on in the heart, like, wow, I keep going to this place. But Jesus actually takes us further and says, I want your orientation, your the entire life with me to be oriented toward love, not just like not doing the wrong things.

Restoring Leaders Without Idolizing Roles

Why Consultation And Apprenticeship Matter

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah. It's a different mindset. I mean, I think as as hard as it might be for us to to recognize, and maybe, and I think we can land the plane with this, one of the the difficult tasks for churches is is is to be counter-cultural. I don't mean to be surprising, I don't mean to be abrasive, but there there's so much in the in the kind of the flow of the culture around what success means, around what progress means, maturity means, wholeness means, uh worth means. And and we mentioned this last week in relation to like reframing it, not taking the bait of the culture, like you have to answer this question right out of the gates. But I think in a similar way, can we cultivate communities within local congregations where there is a it's and it's a common enough refrain where people here that all of us are trying to grow in Christ-likeness. And that's our that's our primary goal here. And so, like another example from our standards, for whatever it's worth, is that uh we we say right out of the gates, like if you are in this type of leadership role here and your your behavior kind of falls below this mark, you should be willing to step down because your goal is Christ-likeness and your goal is to care well for people. And so if you're not in a place to care well for people because whatever's happened, you've gotten kind of wrapped up into addictive behavior or whatever, then you're gonna want to step down. And I think um, I mean, that's an extreme example of that. But and then for those around that person who who is in that spot, how can we be Christ-like in helping to restore that person? And then what are we trying to restore them to? A position, the pulpit, um uh feeling good about themselves or Christ-likeness? I mean, I think it's just a it's a very different, and and even as I'm saying it, I realize there's a there's a severity to what I'm describing, but we I think it's a part of what we're called to as churches, like to take up our cross and follow Jesus means I'm not after a position, I'm not after feeling good, I'm not after having a certain role in this church, I'm after Jesus. My my devotion is to him and him alone. And that means that when I'm doing well, I might be able to do this, and it kind of grows and I change. And um, but if we can be a congregation that's doing that, and that also means that we don't idolize our our pastors or the people in the pulpit, like, and and they're not, you know, they're not idolizing themselves. Like uh, we're all on this journey together. I think I think we're gonna be better off. Man, there's a lot we didn't say. I said we're gonna get practical. This is a this is tough, tough water to get practical into because we're talking about transformation of the heart.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Well, and this is part of why we do consultations with churches, because it's not we're not we just don't believe in a one-size-fits-all for these things. Like obviously, scripture's got uh some clear and profound things to say about leadership and being someone who holds the sound doctrine, which we we believe in. But we also are recognizing that every church has got different structures. Um every in some ways, a lot of leadership is case by case because if you're trying to actually discern the heart and you're trying to actually disciple people, that's the other thing. We're not really advocates of like, hey, uh going back to the example with Kyle, right? She's in her early 30s, coming alive and Jesus, hey Kyle, go lead us a Bible study, like see ya. No, like even in that kind of space, she was becoming on fire for Jesus. And he was changing actually even her desires for women to be non-sexualized. But she still absolutely would say she needed someone older and wiser, more mature, someone who's like a pillar or an elder or a shepherd to be walking with her. So even if she were to help lead a Bible study, it would be in that kind of context of further apprenticeship to Jesus, further discipleship from older and wiser Christians. So yeah, I just I'm reflecting, Josh, what you're saying, which is there's a lot of complexity, there's a lot of personalization, so to speak, for different ways churches do it. But I do think what we're trying to do is give just some markers of wisdom of these things really do matter. And standards can be both these more result type standards or process-based. And even if you are Peter, the most, you know, uh assuming extremely mature elder in his late years of life, he's still growing. He still gets the opportunity to know the infinite God at deeper and deeper levels. Yeah.

Invitation To Reach Out And Closing Prayer

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah. You need you need standards and clarity. And and and you also recognize that they are not the litmus test for Christ-likeness. You need process-based standards to help people kind of learn that I'm growing. Yep, I fell in this area, I struggle with this area, but I'm growing. Or I fell and now I'm being restored. Like they're both needed. And we run into those standards and it's kind of awkward or whatever. That's where we need that personalized approach you're talking about. Well, friends, so much more we could say about that. Um, or so much more you could say about that. If you got questions about that, want to engage with us, we'd welcome conversation around these things. These are areas where we're wanting to get better about helping churches navigate. Um and like always, uh, reach out to us if you're if you're a leader of a church, if you're struggling, like we are here for you. Regeneration is here to equip men, women, and families to learn to live God's design for sexuality, which we absolutely believe is a subcategory of Christ-like love. So, Jesus, would you just take our words and our our uh conversation, our deliberations today? Would you help them find good soil? Anything that was just out of season, Lord, we just pray you'd blow it away by the wind of your spirit. But that which you want pastors or parishioners alike to hear today, would you help us find good soil in them and bear good fruit towards Christlieness? I pray this you in your name, Jesus. Amen.