Becoming Whole
Relationships and sexuality are areas of life that can be beautiful or confusing, life-giving, or painful. Becoming Whole is a conversational podcast for men, women, and families seeking to draw nearer to Jesus as they navigate topics like sexual integrity, relational healing, spiritual health, and so much more.
Becoming Whole
Doing Hard Things
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Fantasy is a soft place to land because it demands nothing from us. Reality is harder and that’s exactly why it changes us. We sit with a blunt question that can reshape recovery: if you keep returning to porn, sexual fantasy, scrolling, or busyness, what pain or fear are you trying not to feel? When we stop fighting symptoms and start listening, escape loses some of its power.
We talk about why modern life makes it easier than ever to build a “virtual reality” that feels safer than the real world, and why Jesus keeps inviting us back into the present where healing actually happens. We also draw a line between healthy imagination that restores us and unhealthy fantasy that replaces our life. Along the way, we bring in insights from Dallas Willard, C.S. Lewis, and the simple wisdom that growth requires courage, community, and truth telling.
If you’re working through porn addiction recovery, sexual integrity, betrayal trauma, or just a constant need to numb out, you’ll hear practical language for identifying core needs under arousal like exhaustion, loneliness, grief, and the need for rest. We close with a prayer to break the quiet “agreements” many of us learned early on, the idea that we’re not allowed to feel what we really feel, and to step into reality with God instead of running from it.
If this helps you name what you’ve been avoiding, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the path from escape to wholeness.
Resources from this Episode:
Join us for the Awaken Retreat, a weekend designed to help men step out of isolation and into deeper honesty, healing, and connection.
October 9th -11th | Early Bird Registration Available More Information & Registration
2026 Upcoming Retreats - Register Today!
Awaken Men's Retreat | October 9th -11th
Sacred By Design Women's Retreat | October 17th
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Fantasy Comfort Versus Reality Courage
A-A-RonAll right, I wanna begin with a simple statement that's been rattling around in my mind. Fantasy is comfortable because it asks nothing of us. Reality is transformational because it asks everything of us. I mean, think about it. Fantasy never asks us to take or to have a difficult conversation. never asks us to grieve our losses. It never asks us to risk rejection, sit with loneliness, to admit weakness, or to even depend on God. Fantasy offers relief without sacrifice. Reality invites transformation through courage. And I think that's why so many of us find ourselves escaping, not just through pornography or sexual fantasy, but through daydreaming and busyness and scrolling, work, entertainment, all kinds of things, because fantasy lets us experience comfort without requiring engagement. But Jesus doesn't simply invite us away from fantasy. He invites us into reality, a reality where healing is found, where intimacy is possible, and where we become the people God created us to be. So today, we're talking about doing hard things, moving toward what your fantasy avoids. Because beneath every fantasy is often an invitation, an invitation to face a fear, feel an emotion, grieve a loss, tell the truth, to take a courageous step that we've been avoiding. The question isn't simply how do I stop fantasizing, the deeper question is what is my fantasy helping me avoid? And I'm really excited about today's conversation because I think this is where so many of us get stuck.
The Matrix And The Choice
A-A-RonWelcome back, friends, to Regeneration, this Becoming Whole podcast. I'm Aaron Taggart, a men's spiritual coach here at Regeneration. And to help us unpack this episode today, I'm joined a friend and familiar voice of the show, James Craig, of projects, Awaken 360 coordinator, and spiritual coach. James, how are you feeling about today's episode?
JamesAnd I'm pumped. I mean, the, reality can be hard in a fallen world, and we're gonna get to unpack that. And yet reality is the only place where God is. God is reality. And so, um, you're making me think immediately, Aaron, of our mind module for Awaken, one of our four modules throughout our year-round Awaken 360 program. It's all about reality. It's all about peeling back, uh... We actually used to show clips from The Matrix every, uh, Tuesday night when we'd meet because, uh, when Josh, uh, who leads our ministry, originally saw The Matrix in the late '90s, I guess, he's like, "This has so many, uh, implications for those dealing with sexual sin." And so Matrix, if you don't know, uh, I've heard all the rest of the movies are not great, um, but the first one is just a movie about really facing reality and leaving behind a, a fantasy world
A-A-RonYeah, and even, even as you say that, I'm, I'm struck with, you know, N- Neo, who's the main character in that, is sort of faced with a series of choices, um, you know, that he, that he essentially has to make. Uh, but the choice, is his, you know? D-
JamesHmm.
A-A-Ronhe choose this path or does he choose that path? In a lot of ways that's, uh, sort of what we're kind of talking about, uh, with some of this today. Choosing, you know, the reality and choosing to do hard thing of what that might require, uh, as opposed to the easy thing that, that asks nothing of us and just caving into, to fantasy. 'Cause that's exactly what fantasy is, isn't it? A fantasy is of a dream world. Uh, it, it's an escape. It's a, it's not as things maybe truly are.
JamesMm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
A-A-Ronof, Yeah, there's just a lot of, um... I think even in some ways, like with au- with authors and writers and things, like there's a lot of creativity in that,
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronum, which is, which is really good. And, and God did give us sort of this mind to be able to, you know, uh, dream some of that stuff up and to be creative and things like that. But we're talking about today is I think a little, it's a lot more destructive, because it's replacing I think even what the Lord would want us to do in the facing of reality, by using even... And 'cause we can even use those good things as, uh, you know, an inappropriate sort of escape. So really, you know, where we're gonna start off, is just trying to understand fantasy, uh, a little bit
Why Fantasy Beats Real Life
A-A-Ronmore. Um, and I think, like, a good question maybe to start or to kind of frame that up is why is fantasy often more appealing real life? What would you say to that?
JamesAaron, we live in the first time in history where, at least in the, you know, maybe last few decades, where we can construct a pretty robust fantasy world. Um, in fact, you know, "The Matrix" is kind of this potentially prophetic movie of like, if we do eventually give in to a virtual reality world where, uh, uh, don't you hate that oxymoron, virtual reality?
A-A-RonMm-hmm.
Jamesthis world where we could actually construct exactly the world we want, a world of no pain, but not a real world. And I just think, Aaron, the first thing worth saying, um, from my side here is reality comes with good and bad in this fallen world. Like,
A-A-RonYeah
Jameson the bad side, we are in a fallen world. This is not the utopia. This is not, um, this is not the new heavens and new earth. This isn't Eden. And yet, reality also comes with a lot of common grace. Uh, the world has fallen, but not all beauty and truth and goodness have not been removed. Everything from the beauty of sunset or stars or water fixtures or, um, all the way to the, you know, truth of, of certain philosophies or, or theology and, and, and goodness. And we do see virtue throughout this world, even among those who are not Christians. But, but as Christians, part of entering reality is Jesus' invitation to the kingdom. The kingdom, uh, you know, he describes the good news in the four Gospels as the kingdom of heavens or, or the kingdom of God has come to this earth. The king is here. And so Jesus was someone who, I mean, most perfectly, beautifully, truthfully, um, embraced reality as it was. I mean, he was-- E-everything about his character, everything about the journey he had to go of suffering for being the greatest man who's ever lived, um, suffering for our sins, all those, these things, so that he could begin the process of the inbreaking of God's kingdom here on Earth. And God's kingdom is reality. I-in fact, Dallas Willard has four fundamental questions that every person should ask at some point, and one of those is: what is real? And his answer, he has really short and sweet answers. Just look up, uh, for any listeners, I, I don't remember all four questions off the top right now, but you can look up Dallas Willard four, four key questions or something like that. But when he asked what is real, I'm pretty sure his answer is something along the lines of God and his kingdom. That's the fundamental reality of this, uh, cosmos, I guess. But, but even more than the physical cosmos, it's the fundamental reality of, of everything, is God and his kingdom. And so we wanna find God, we want God's help facing our sexual sin, betrayal trauma, even God's help as we try to parent kids in this world. Um, we must become people of reality. And I just also wanna say, Aaron, that that doesn't mean we never leave reality temporarily in the sense of engaging good fiction. I mean, Lewis and Tolkien defended fantasy in a healthy sense because they believed that the fantasies they were writing, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Space Trilogy, Till We Have Faces, which is, for many, Lewis's greatest fictional work, if you haven't heard of it, check it out. Um, but basically, these types of fantasies actually help us enter back into reality better. It's like, uh, Aaron, when, when I hang out with good brothers like I did yesterday for discipleship, I come home loving my wife better. Like, I, I left the home for a couple hours to be with these guys, to talk and to pray, but I came home more loving. And I think that's what happens for me when I read good fiction is, yes, it can, it can easily be a, a deep escape, you know, like I, I c- can't put a book down and it's midnight and I'm not gonna sleep well, whatever. But, but by and large, good fiction is actually meant to help us enter back into reality, to see the world as it really is, unveiled, because this world has been darkened, and so often we think this is all there is, and we're, we live under the dark cloud of, of the world of flesh and the devil, the fallen order. But God actually wants, uh... And, and I think God equips these great writers like Lewis and Tolkien with good fiction to remind us this is not all there is, versus unhealthy fantasy, which is avoiding reality, but it doesn't bring you back into reality well. Maybe that's a distinction, like healthy fantasy, healthy fiction, healthy imagination brings you back into the world as it more, as it truly is. Unhealthy does not. It doesn't actually aid in your becoming
Healthy Imagination Versus Escape
A-A-RonYeah. That's, I think that's a really important distinction. I'm glad, I'm glad that you brought that up. And, and speaking of C.S. Lewis, I'm, I'm thinking right now even about, um, uh, from Screwtape Letters, um, I think it's like letter 13 or somewhere around there, um, where, um, you know, Wormwood's talking about trying to keep the, uh, the, the enemy, right, or Christians, um, focused on not the present, which to me is also kind of like reality, right? and he says, you know, by all means, try to keep them focused on the past, which is typically a, a place of shame. So he talks about
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-RonLike, you know, let's keep them just sort of heaped shame on them, uh,
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronor, or keep their thoughts on the future, can produce a lot of anxiety and fear because you don't, you don't know what you don't know, right?
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-RonLord only reveals so much to us at a time.
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronlike, try to keep them in one of the two places because at all costs, if, if, if they're thinking about sort of the present, where sort of heaven meets earth. and so in reality, even though it's hard, I think the important thing to even remember as we enter into this conversation is that you are not alone in the present, in the real, in the, in the, in the reality. It could feel like
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronand the enemy would want to capitalize on that, of course, 'cause that's gonna drive you, into wanting to numb that out, um, you know,
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronvarious unwanted sexual behaviors. Um, and so I, I just, yeah, I just submit that because I, I, I do feel like there's something about being able to present, to be in the present, and we'll talk a little bit more about that, a- and what that looks like, um, throughout this episode. Um, but the other thing too is, you know, I think Stringer talks a lot about how our fantasies... And I think we can even try to make these sort of enemies, uh, like to defeat, but there's actually, th- there's, there can be a, there's a side to these where Jay talks about, like, our fantasies as messengers, um, and trying to communicate something to us that I would say if we remain in the present, we actually might be able to receive the, the message, um, and to lean
JamesMm.
A-A-Ronof that curiosity, uh, as to why this messenger is sh- showing up, especially if you have repeated fantasies. Um, I think there's... Yeah, uh, uh, James, you wanna say anything just into, into that?
JamesI was actually just listening to a podcast yesterday, Aaron, from, um... I told you about this even before we hopped on. Sam Jolman, who wrote a book that's
Arousal As A Messenger
Jamesbeen really popular the last few years. I think it's called The Sex Talk You Never Got. Is that right, Aaron?
A-A-RonMm-hmm. Yeah.
JamesYeah.
A-A-RonGreat
JamesHe was being interviewed, uh, by, um, our friends at Restored to More, Clinton and Charity, who, uh, whose material we use for our, our marriage course, um, uh, their marriage course that we use. Um, and he was just talking about how There's actually ways to recognize that there's core needs at play whenever a fantasy or even arousal, to some degree, happens. And we, we've often demonized arousal, and he makes the point that arousal's a physical thing that can be, uh, transformed over time, uh, as, as you grow. I mean, it does. I mean, our, our tastes change when we're a child to now when we're adults. I mean, you might have developed a taste for good coffee, Aaron, or wine, or I know you like cigars. But whatever it might be, our tastes do change, but we don't need to battle in the same way we often think we do against our arousal. But what we can do is listen for the message it's giving. So he gives a wonderful example of, of seeing attractive woman, really well-dressed after, after work. And, and he was like, "Man, Lord, I'm so drawn to this woman who's dressed like she's ready to go to a ball or, or out to a really nice restaurant." And he was able to recognize that there's something she was communicating. His lust wanted to co-opt it and fantasize about how, you know, uh, yeah, I mean, take control basically of her beauty through fantasy. But what he actually chose to do is use his kind of sanctified imagination, imagining she's off to a, a wonderful dinner or she's, uh, going to meet up with friends or whatever. And what that allowed him to do was to say, "I'm so... One, I'm so grateful that she dressed up and kind of cared enough to dress up," which is kind of an interesting way to put that. But, uh, there's a beauty in, in someone taking the time and care. But even more, he recognized he had this core need after an exhausted day at work, headed home, um, heh, at Costco getting gas, which if you've ever done is, is a terrible, terrible experience in my opinion, full of,
A-A-Ronready to
Jamesin Southern California.
A-A-RonYeah.
Jameswaiting a long time in line.
A-A-RonYeah
Jamesum, but he was actually feeling exhausted as he was getting ready to head home to his family, and he recognized that there's this core need that he felt drawn to in this woman of, like, her kind of vigor, if you will, her, her being full of life, if I can put it that way. And so he could recognize, "I'm tired," or, "I wish that I had the kind of energy that it would take to have a wonderful night out even in the middle of my exhausting work week." Think about how, what, what that difference is, Aaron, between I'm gonna either fantasize about her sexually and kind of try to grab and, and consume her beauty versus I'm gonna be... I, I forget the word he used, but kind of in awe or, or overwhelmed by beauty in a good way, imagine good things through God's kingdom lens- And actually recognize, "God, I'm exhausted." And so often, uh, I, I appreciated how he said this. We have a radar for when we start to feel arousal or desire sometimes, but rarely our radar is big enough to encapsulate all that was going on before we got there. He didn't reflect, I guess, that particular day at least, on how exhausted he really was after seeing however many clients or whatever. And so it, it ended up being this beautiful invitation. He ends up, you know, praying a blessing without ever talking to this woman, but, you know, praying for her in the car and then kinda moving on, I think. And what, what that allowed him to do was get in touch with his need and bring that to the Lord. 'Cause there's a real need there. Rest is a real need. And by the way, that's a theme that comes up all the time, Aaron, when I'm coaching guys. Most of us in our culture do not know how to rest, and instead of true rest, instead of maybe taking a 20-minute power nap if we need it or going on a little walk or looking at the trees or something, something that might give true rest, what do, what do we typically do? We grab the matrix in our pocket. We grab our phones and, uh, you know, I know for me at least, I might put on YouTube videos about cars. And it's like, it's relatively benign. I'm not, I'm not trying to condemn YouTube videos about cars or whatever someone might be interested in, but I do recognize, Aaron, I don't usually leave 10 minutes of watching that more energized, more rested. I leave the same way I was. And so that would be a great example of like I'm avoiding reality. I'm avoiding the reality that I'm tired. And as Americans, which I imagine is most of our audience since we're based in the US, we are masters at avoiding reality because it's, it- when it's painful, which is often enough
A-A-RonYeah. Yeah, and even that example, James, like there's th- like there is nothing, um, y- yeah, like that, that's not a, a even, you know, turning to, uh, unwanted sexual behaviors. That's even just turning to YouTube videos about cars. Like, and even something like that can be, uh, it's sort of the heart posture of like the, you know, using that even, you know, to kind of get lost in that and not feeling that refreshment, not feeling,
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronyou know, kind of satisfied and filled, I think is a, is, is also just important to name. Um,
JamesWell, and that's the thing. It's, it's not a legalism of like never watch YouTube. It's a
A-A-RonRight.
Jamessatisfies, and most of us were not taught. Ideally, the life model talks about by age 12, when you finish your child years and you enter on a brain level, and actually for the Jews as well, adult years, age 13, um, you should have... A- and again, this is idealized, so we gotta take it w- w- with the reality of where we're at. But by age 12, we should know what truly satisfies and know how to get it, and that doesn't mean knowing how to get sex, 'cause that's not what that's actually often about. The, the arousal, the desire is often not actually about sex. It's about things like rest, things like bringing your true self to God or to others, your, your pain, not wearing masks, which is another way to avoid the reality of where we're at. Um, similar to like the present vers- you know, being in the present is reality, uh, versus being in the past or future is not. Uh, true face versus masks, right? So these types of things we actually often don't know, and there's still so many places in my heart, Aaron, I don't know how to find true satisfaction. I'm growing, and I'm so grateful because I am more satisfied on a day-to-day basis in God than I was when I was going to pseudo-satisfaction in porn, and yet there's still a lot to learn about what truly satisfies
A-A-RonYeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a growth journey and it's, uh, y- you know, it... I get this picture sort of at a, like being at a masquerade ball, you know, and then being able to take off your mask. you know, it's like, you know, removing that mask and like, "Wait, what did you say?" Like, "This is who... This is the real me right here." Like, "Say that
JamesYeah
A-A-RonLike, um, so I think there's, yeah, there is something about being able, you know, to, to do that, which, uh, you know, helps us to name maybe we're trying to avoid, um, you know, in, in fantasy and when we turn to fantasy. Um, know, I know that, you know, there are a lot of emotions. I, you know, I think, I think so often from coaching,
The Emotions Under The Fantasy
A-A-Ronknow, guys, you know, saying things like... And you've heard this before, and I've heard this on other podcasts too, like, "Oh, I just don't have, I don't have feelings," or, you know, "I don't," you know, "I don't feel very often," or, "The only thing I am ever is, you know, angry," or, you know. And it's like, hmm, okay, well we know that, you know, a- anger can be a mask for sadness, and then, know, maybe there's
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Rona b- grief even, you know, underneath that, and it's just deep grief. And so now we're getting
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronpretty uncomfortable territory, um, which makes a lot of sense that, you know what? I'm gonna move towards fantasy because it's an escape from reality. I don't wanna feel these harder, heavier feelings. Maybe, maybe I never felt like I had permission to feel that particular way, or I just don't know what it looks like to feel that way in a, even in a healthy way, and so I just avoid it
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronor I try to avoid it. Uh, and I turn to all of these other things. and so I think even as a listener right now, like just something to, something to consider, um, you know, would be, you know, when you're... If you turn towards fantasy What are you turning away from? What emotions are you turning away from? Are you sort of fleeing from, uh, instead of facing? You know, because again, the difference between the fantasy and reality, know, it would be, you know, having to sort of come to grips with some of that and face that. And again, we've got this wonderful buffalo on my desk, awakened buffalo here, um, which we got at the retreat last year. It was so awesome. Um, but again, it's the, it's that, you know, here comes that storm, here comes that feeling. I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn towards that feeling, I'm gonna enter into that storm like a buffalo would, uh, on the prairie because it's, it's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be the quickest and best way through that. And again, realizing too that as you do that, not alone. You know, maybe there's the community of other buffalo or other people around you,
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronit's just the fact that the Lord is with you and, and guiding you along that way Um, and I would even s- I would even share too, just f- you know, for myself, some of that work, uh, of uncovering something, you know, underneath a fantasy that needed attention. In my own healing journey, um, especially after going through Unwanted, I, you know, I was able to name You know, there were different times, you know, as I'm, as I'm growing up, I, I was kind of a, a peacekeeper in my family, and felt a lot of pressure to kind of take care of my, you know, my siblings in a way emotionally. Um, you know, my parents, like checking sort of in on them. And, uh, and by no ill i- i- no ill intent, you know, um, just feeling like maybe, you know, th- there was some care and things that I needed and, and, and I didn't receive. Um, and then I took that to fantasy. Um, and that definitely played out as a theme in the type of porn that I would end up going to. you know, and so couldn't have done that work without actually being able to, um, sit in reality and, and, and, and sit with the Lord and have him sort of help me pay attention to those kind of messages as they, they came. Uh, and then a- as, of course, as you And I, I know you, you know this too, James, but even through coaching, as we've done this work and we've seen individuals to pay attention and be curious about these messages, wow. Like, it just opens up, like, a whole new understanding of why maybe they've been turning to what they've been turning to. And when we do that, it actually starts to break some of that power that shame and that hold has had on us, and allows us, I think, to sit in reality little bit more each time
JamesHmm. I think of wisdom here, Aaron. Like, I think wisdom in so many ways is the ability to engage reality well. In fact,
Permission To Feel And Tell Truth
Jamesone of the four cardinal virtues that existed even before Christianity was, uh, prudence, which, um, I, I don't know why that word never rings quite the same way wisdom does, but the way I understand prudence, practical wisdom. It's, it's knowing how to do stuff. It's knowing how to care for yourself. And, uh, our context, Aaron, is primarily with men, but whether you're a man or a woman listening, it takes a lot of courage to go to these places.
A-A-RonYep
JamesWe cannot do it alone, as Aaron already said, and that doesn't negate that we could do it potentially with God. We often need the body of Christ as well to help us do it. But I love what you said earlier about permission. So many of us have not been given permission to be in reality. Things like, um, you're not allowed to feel that way. Uh, I remember, uh, one of my favorite books is, uh, just called Boundaries, this classic book at this point of, uh, Christian, I guess, I don't know, psychology, if you will. Like it's, it's a Christian, two Christian therapists who wrote it. And I remember this really important thing that they said that it's one thing to tell a child, "You're gonna do this, and you just have to do this. You have to clean up your plate every, every time after dinner," or whatever it is, whatever habit is being instilled, whatever discipline you're trying to disciple your kids in. But if you say, "And you have to like it-" That's actually forcing on a child. And I'm sure I've probably done this, uh, you've maybe done this, Aaron. We've almost certainly experienced it. But, uh, you have to like it actually adds a layer of unreality because now I've got to grin, uh, and bear it. I, I, I don't know exactly if I'm using that phrase c- uh, correctly, but this idea of like, I've got to smile through it, pretend I'm happy, pretend I'm enjoying it, when in reality, I don't like it. And it's actually okay to not like to do disciplines because discipline, as scripture says, is unpleasant at the time. Um, but when we're actually told we've got to like it because of, you know, it's, it's frankly got to be really hard. I'm, I'm soon to be a, a, a parent, Aaron, but I can just imagine it's got to be really hard to constantly be bringing your kids back into, uh, doing, doing things right, you know, uh, following the house rules or, or, or living the way that they're meant to live. But I can totally sympathize with why a parent might say things like, "And you've got to like it," because it's got to be painful to keep being up against a kid not liking what I'm telling them to do. And yet, if we've been told those types of things, that creates this unreality where we've been convinced we've got to pretend we like something that's pretty unpleasant. And you can just think about the ripple effect of that because what that's going to do is create someone who's got a deep disintegration, where I'm not actually in touch with the fact that I come to work, and I don't like this thing. And instead of being able to name that and bring that to the Lord and process that and maybe even eventually bring it to a supervisor and ask for a change or whatever that might need to be, instead we say, "No, I, I like this," or, "I've got to like this." And then what do I do with my a- authentic pain? Well, I might take it to pornography. I might take it to another place because I don't actually know that I'm in that disintegrated spot of not being honest about how I'm really doing. Doesn't even feel like an option. Doesn't feel like I have permission, as you said earlier, you know?
A-A-RonYeah. Yeah, I mean, even as like, you know, i- in a non sort of conforming or shaming sort of way, like, like parents know, um... I'm just thinking even like God's own heart. Like, He knows, like if you only knew like what, you know, the, you know, whether it's a boundary or whatever, like if you only knew why, like, you know, this is good for you. Or why I want you to do this, or to face this, or to sit with the... Like, know? But, but you know, as, uh, uh, a parent and having, you know, four kids, I'm very familiar with, you know, well, they've got their own thoughts about, "No, this is how it should be," you know? "This
JamesYeah
A-A-Roninterested in and how I wanna do it." And it's like, "Okay, but no, that's gonna, that's gonna get you killed. You can't, you
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronlet you on a dirt bike, you know, at six years old and, you know, just free rein
JamesYou can't have ice cream every night for dinner.
A-A-Ronexactly like, "Man, why not?" Okay, well, yeah. So we do need... I, I'm, I'm really glad you brought that up. I just feel like we do... There is something so holy about, you know, God's heart behind, you know, all of this in, in, in the reality. And it's not that, know, maybe, maybe, maybe you're experiencing something because something's been done to you. Um, you know? A- a- you know, betrayal trauma, you know? As that's something that you didn't ask for,
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronand you're maybe experiencing. And know, so th- there's that too. And it, it's not that this is a from the Lord or, or, or any of these things, but, but He, that He's with us in the, in the midst of that. And learning to find Him, uh, as we face these really difficult things that are a part of reality. 'cause even
JamesHmm
A-A-Ronthinking back to that quote, you know, from, uh, from C.S. Lewis in Screwtape Letters, like it doesn't say, you know, uh, uh, you know, "Keep them in the, in the, you know, don't let them stay in the present because everything is great, and good, and perfect."
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronit just says because that's where sort of heaven meets Earth.
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronin the midst of your heart, if, if heaven meets Earth in the midst of your difficult, in your heart, in, in, in your reality, isn't that still so much better than fantasy?
JamesWell, that's part of the vision, right? It's like reality actually, it might not seem to, but it is the place where God's grace is. It's the place where we can encounter him and the people around us, and I think ultimately you were saying kinda earlier, we often struggle to have a vision for why it's worth facing reality. Like, if, if someday there is a, a wilf- uh, actually one of my old childhood sci-fi books has a, a book about a world where over time virtual reality gets so good, and they've got this kind of food that they can just put on their bodies and they absorb it, so they can basically survive in virtual reality 24/7. Like, why would, why would anyone wanna leave that? And yet the vision here is actually a vision of joy, maturity, becoming people of virtue in Christ. I mean, all the people we look up to, Aaron, all the people we wanna be like, if you think about all of them, they all have components of being people of reality, whether it's Mother Teresa living in the reality of severe poverty and choosing to, uh, to surrender her privilege where she did not have to live like that and live with people who Jesus loves and are, are deeply poor. Or whether it's, uh, uh, uh, I'm trying to think of some other examples right off the top of my head, but basically even in movies I think the people we respect or look up to or are inspired by are people who actually face reality with incredible courage, maybe confidence even, or, or at least a, a willingness to go to bat for those around them. So while it might not seem pleasant at the time, again, that idea of like discipline's not pleasant at the time, reality is the place of God's kingdom, of his grace, and of us becoming actually the kinds of people who are people of reality, who are people who have that kind of courage to face that which comes to us with Jesus and with those around us in the present.
A-A-RonYeah, I'm even thinking about just all these different movies that we've seen over the years. And, you know, for any, uh, you, you just think about all the different stories that movies
A Bigger Vision For Reality
A-A-Rontell. and there's a, a, a, a, a newer, um, sort of worship album. I- if you call it worship, I don't know. But Benjamin William Hastings has a, a new album out, and there's a song in there called Saturday. And there's a line in that song where he talks about, every, good story holds a whole lot of grief. Um, and, and w- when we think about all the different movies or stories that, that we've seen and, like, those kind of pivotal moments in a story where it's like, "Oh, my gosh. That's gut-wrenching, and, and that's hard." And then to see sort of how that story continues to unfold, and then the ending. And, and it's, everything's sort of like, I don't wanna say sort of, like, uh, hunky-dory, like, okay, like everything just works out, but, um, but the story continues, and you get to see how, you know, the rest of that plays out. And I think we're in the midst of reality. We can get stuck in that place of we don't know how the rest of the story's gonna go we're not the author and finisher of our faith. Uh, and we're only revealed a little at a time because He knows, again, as a good father, can't handle everything all at once.
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronknow the end of the story. We just get
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronright here. And it doesn't make sense to me, but my ways are not His ways. thoughts are not His thoughts. I can take comfort in that, even in, in, in a hard reality things are difficult, that the Lord is at work because
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-RonHe tells us that, that, you know, His ways are not our ways. And I can, I can rest in that, if I allow myself to, um, know that it's okay, that even if I'm experiencing grief, or I need to, to experience some of these hard emotions and work my way through them, He is with me to be able to do that. Or that there are other people, like you mentioned earlier, you know, having others. Um, you know, it's super important that we have others, and that's, you know, community is so essential, whether that's in your church or recovery community. We have been designed to have the need for other people, in our lives. You know, if the paralytic couldn't get to Christ, who was gonna take him? He had, he had friends take him on a mat and carry that mat. So we need those people in our lives that can do the same for us, especially when it, when we're talking about facing reality, um, versus fantasy
JamesOne of my favorite, uh, uh, artists, musical artists is Switchfoot, and they, they just put out an album, Aaron, I think you and I have texted about it some, but, um, uh, somehow I'm actually forgetting the title of the album right now. Um, but basically, the entire album is an exploration of the last day of someone's life, and the theme... Oh, is it Forever Now? Yeah. So it's a, it's a beautiful reflection on memento mori, which is a medieval concept of remember your death. And this is gonna feel a little paradoxical 'cause Aaron just had that really important quote about not living in the, the fear of the future, right? And yet there can be a, a wise way to say, "I'm actually a limited person who will someday not be alive in my present, in, in the, in the present circumstances." I will be alive to Christ. Things will be made well. There will be a happy ending in that regard for those of us who are in Christ. But I just think that there's so much wisdom to recognizing, like, almost like that kind of deathbed reflection. Like, if I be- if I increasingly become, as Lewis would say, if I keep making the little choices that make me a person of non-reality, a person who lives for the weekend and sports and, and social media and just, you know, I, I just keep increasing my avoidance of reality, pornography, whatever it is What would that deathbed kind of reflection look like? Would I actually say the short time I've had on this earth I've used well? Versus these people of reality, these people who face hardship and endure it well, these people who have friends and family that they've stayed in touch with even though they've been hurt by, but they've been able to forgive and reconcile with. And I know these are a lot of really hard places, and I don't wanna act or make it sound like I've, I've got full success in any of these regards. But the idea of memento mori is wh- who do I wanna be when I'm looking back from the deathbed? Like, uh, and I think the more of reality we face, maybe we can even think of it as less or more. Like, if I faced more of reality than not, what a grace that might be. Wh- what might that allow us? Who might we be surrounded by? What might we be so grateful for in this life? Because all the things we're ultimately grateful for... If I asked you, Aaron, "What are you grateful for this past weekend?" I doubt you would say, "Hey, I was actually doom scrolling for, like, an hour, and I was... Man, that's just my biggest gratitude from the weekend. I'm so grateful." I think what you would say, if I asked you even next weekend, and, you know, you've taken your, your son to the movies for his birthday or something, like, that's gonna be a really sweet memory because you've chosen to spend that time with your child. Or w- you know, for me this past weekend, it might be having gone, gone to the beach, but being around my wife and others, other friends in the body of Christ. Like, these are the types of things, even though they're, they're, they take more effort or they take more engagement, that I, that we look back with gratitude on. So it really is reality that's both all the greatest pain that we have to face, but also all the greatest joy and pleasure, and that's the vision for it, I think
A-A-RonYeah. Yeah, gosh, that's beautiful. Um, and by the way, my gratitude from this weekend was finishing my 14-mile hike. Um,
JamesWhat? Talk
Hard Things And Hard-Won Views
Jamesabout hard. Talk about hardship.
A-A-Ronman, my, my body was like shutting down. Um,
JamesOh, yeah
A-A-RonI and, and her brother and, um, my sister-in-law, we're, we're going to Peru in August. We're doing Machu Picchu. So part of our Machu Picchu training, man. 14 miles in and, uh, I was so glad to be done, let me tell you what. Lots of
JamesYeah. Yeah
A-A-Ronbut man, doing, again, doing the hard thing, and that even makes me think too, like, you know, I'm getting ready to embark on this trip, right?
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronto get to the top of Machu Picchu like so many... Like, I love backpacking, and so I just have a reverence for the hard work that's required to get, like, the view of Machu Picchu.
JamesYes.
A-A-RonUh, or,
JamesOh, that's a good metaphor. Yeah
A-A-Ronone of my, one of my favorite places, that I've backpacked in Colorado is up at Lone Eagle Peak. and did that with a couple buddies from, from college. You know, we try to do a trip every three years or so. and man, like you can't drive up there. Like, and you're rock scrambling to get to the top of this,
JamesOh, yeah
A-A-Ronthis like lake surrounded like by peaks, and the only way you get there is by doing the hard thing and making that trek. Um, and once you're there, man, along the way you're like, "Oh, this sucks. Why did I do this?" Like, you know. But then you've got your, your people with you who are encouraging you, and then, you, you get to sort of that, that finale, that view, and it's like the Lord's like, "This is why you did that.
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronis why, this is why you endured."
JamesYes
A-A-Ronknow? And so I just, I love that and I, and I think it's so helpful. We're talking about doing hard things, and I think it's so important to remember, you guys have done some hard things. James, you've done hard things. You know, you've faced your own sort of, you know, realities and, and places that need healing. I've done the same thing. And again, yes, we're not p- we're not perfect in, in those senses, but have done hard things, and you can actually take that and use that for your benefit. You can, uh, that, there's a reality in, "Oh my gosh. You know what? This is a hard thing. I've done hard things. Oh, I can do this."
JamesYeah, yeah.
A-A-RonYou know?
JamesTh-there's that
A-A-Ronyeah, go ahead.
Jameswell, there's that Chesterton quote that I came across recently. I, I feel like it might have even been in one of our newsletters, I can't remember. But it's something like, "Adventure is just inconvenience properly conceived." Like,
A-A-RonMm-hmm.
Jamesinconvenience, we, we all wanna avoid inconvenience, um, but any inconvenience that we can embrace properly is an adventure. That's the difference. It's a mi- it, it is a mindset there. Like, I've done hard things. It's been really hard. I, I wish in some ways I didn't have to go, and yet
A-A-RonYeah
JamesI am so grateful for who God, how God's worked on my heart in ways that I wouldn't have f- I wouldn't have gone near with a 20-foot pole if it weren't for kind of having to face reality, having... I mean, that's what Alcoholics Anonymous and all these 12-step groups and what we try to do in Awaken in our groups is like you're b- you're facing reality. Like, uh, uh, what is it in Alcoholics Anonymous? There's something about you kinda declare some, some hard realities throughout the 12 steps. But that's what you're there to do is to say, "I can't actually..." Th- this is one of the ones I was thinking of. "I can't face this. I can't... Uh, my best thinking got me here, so I cannot face this on my own." Something along the lines of that
A-A-RonYeah, it's even right at the beginning. It's like, I am, I am powerless.
JamesI'm powerless. There we go.
A-A-RonYeah. I think it's
JamesYeah
A-A-RonIt's like, I am, I am powerless. That's the beginning, sort of the end of even ourselves in a way. Let's like, I can't do this on my own
JamesYes.
A-A-RonI need others. I need, I need a, this higher power, right? Which is, which is, you know, Christ
JamesYeah. And I think speaking of Jesus, like, the, the gospel is eucatastrophe, and that might be a funny word. Eucatastrophe. What are you saying? Uh, this is Tolkien's favorite concept of a catastrophe, but he adds E-U, the prefix E-U, which means good or, or it makes it kind of a, a positive, uh, catastrophe. Like- Mm-hmm the world's about to end. Frodo seems to be about to give up hope, or the, uh, the people of Middle Earth are about to all get wiped out by, by the armies of Sauron to, to bring back the Lord of the Rings. And, and at that moment is when, um, it flips. And I, I don't know about you, Aaron, but I've had to recognize in my own life, I wish I believed this 24/7, but God needs no amount of time. I could be going through the hardest thing, and in an instant He could turn it around. That doesn't mean that's always how He does it, but often what He's doing in the background or what He's doing in the hard thing, then when it turns around, we can often begin to see what He was up to and begin to live a new way than we were living. So the gospel is eucatastrophe because the day that we killed God, three days later to find out is that Holy Saturday, right? You just referenced a song talking about Saturday. W- we, we do the darkest deed of human history, killing God, and then Sunday comes and in an instant... Uh, you know, it, it must have felt like an instant when Mary shows up at the tomb like, "I was here last night. Like, what, what on earth happened? Why is the... Like, He's alive now all of a sudden." And so I think we just have to sometimes be reminded of that gospel hope of eucatastrophe, that even when things are getting the darkest, He can turn things around in, in a moment. And that can be painful, too, 'cause like, "Well, God, why aren't you- We have to wait, and yet he can and he does, and that is ultimately what he will do
A-A-RonYeah Yeah, one of my favorite authors, Henri Nouwen, you know, writes about how in, in we each have a cup and in our cup is both joy
Gospel Hope When It Turns Fast
A-A-Ronand sorrow. Um, and sometimes it feels like there's one more than the other. he talks about Jesus' cup of joy and sorrow, and you think about, the, you know, the cross set before him. He knew what that meant. He also knew he had to endure the cross. Um, and so there's a lot of sorrow and like, oh gosh, like he's even pleading, like, "Take this, take this cup from me, Father." Like, "Your, your will be done, not mine." And it's like, okay, nope, I've gotta, I've gotta see this out. Like if I'm, you know, I'm gonna be, uh, up on that cross. And that was the joy set before him because of what he knew that was going to do for humanity, to bridge that gap between, um, between the Father and his sons and daughters. and that brought him a ton of joy, but it didn't, it didn't negate sorrow that was required, uh, in the midst
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-RonAnd so in all of our cup, uh, joy and sorrow. Um, uh, anyway, we need to we need to get ready to land this plane here. Um, and I think we've talked so much about, um, you know, what it looks like, um, you know, different examples of maybe moving towards and doing hard things. Um, and I, I would say maybe a- as we wrap up, you know, what, what it's all for. I think about the freedom for mindset that
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronabout again in Unwanted. Um, and, and, know, there's so much Uh, you know, I always use, uh, or I use the analogy a lot in coaching that windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror because what's ahead of you, there's so much more to take in what's ahead of you than, than what's behind you. And if you're trying to drive looking in your rear view mirror, you're gonna miss everything that's in front of you and probably crash your vehicle,
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-RonSo the, the windshield is big on purpose because it's the direction you're, you're heading, uh, and it's also all of the things that are sort of in that, uh, sort of view. and then to me, you know, that's like what's, what's in front of you is bigger than what's behind you. And that's not to negate like, again, hard things that you maybe have endured or experienced, maybe even at the hands of somebody else. Um, but again, I, I think as we talk about the fantasy and, and, and reality, you know, if, if you're really taking in that windshield sort of point of view, you can take in the colors. You can take in, you know, the different, all the different sights and textures and things. And again, it's even l- you know, thinking about that backpacking analogy, you know, taking in what w- what like God created, um, that you can only get by putting, by doing those hard things. Um, so I just wanna encourage, you know, the, the, you know, listeners if Um, you know, what, even thinking about maybe the things that you repeatedly, um, you know, maybe go to, uh, as far as fantasy or, um, know, those types of things. You know, what kind of person we become when we repeatedly choose courage over escape? And that's really what doing this hard thing, um, I think really requires. You know, doing the hard thing
JamesYeah
A-A-Roncourage escape. Um, it's
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronsitting in that Saturday, you know, not knowing, you know, what was gonna happen on that Sunday because they didn't know what was gonna happen. And then Sunday happened, and it was like, "Oh man," like, "this changes everything." And it was hard even at first, right? It was like, "They took my savior," you know? I mean, even, know, uh, is weeping, and Jesus, she confuses Jesus for a gardener, you know, because
JamesMm-hmm.
A-A-Ronyou know, her eyes are probably all swollen, and she just can't see. know, and, you know, "They, they've taken him, and, you know, if you've taken him, please tell me where." And it's like, "Mary, it, you know, it's me." And she's like, like, man, Sunday changed everything. But, you know, they're left kind of sitting in Saturday with, scratching their head, "Well, what's, what's next? What does this mean?" Um, and that is, I think, so much of what reality really is. You know, fantasy avoids, you know, some of that, and, and reality is sort of sitting, sitting with
JamesYeah
A-A-Ronhow to sit in that more and more, uh, which gets into the maturity like you talked about earlier
JamesYeah. Well, Aaron, maybe I can close in a word of prayer in a moment whenever you're ready for me to. I, I, I feel like it's on my heart to lead us to break some of these agreements we've made around the, the idea of permission to feel reality.
A-A-RonYeah. Let's do it
Jamesyeah. So, uh, friends, this is just gonna be ad hoc. Uh, I don't have a prayer in front of me. This wasn't, uh, prepared or pre-planned, but
A-A-RonMm-hmm.
A Closing Prayer For Freedom
Jameslet's pray together, if you're willing, uh, for, for the Lord to search our hearts here. So, um, you can maybe, if you're listening to this podcast, you could repeat or you could just kind of a- assent or agree in your heart. But Father, would you show us any places that we've made agreement around this idea of permission to feel reality? Or are there places in our lives where we've not really been given permission to feel sad or to not be happy that we have to clean up the dishes, or whatever it may be? Would you raise just some of those types of places where we've agreed with-- where we've been told maybe even that we are not allowed to feel sad or angry or other negative emotions So you can pause if you're still listening, but I'm gonna just gonna continue. Lord, would you, um, in the name of Jesus, would you break that agreement in our hearts that we're not allowed to feel how we really feel? And instead, we take the feelings we're not allowed to feel to pornography or other sin We break that in the name of Jesus We agree that it's okay to feel hopeless or disgust or sadness, shame, fear, anger. Not that we really wanna feel any of these things, Lord, but we can feel them with you. We can invite you into them. We can give them to you. We can process them with you. And instead of taking these negative emotions to our sin, we wanna take them, Lord, to you And so Lord, would you bless us with that kind of permission to be men of sorrows, well acquainted with grief, but also, uh, men and women of, of joy and life, full of the reality of God and his kingdom, the reality of the Trinity, the reality of the person of Jesus who sits at the center of everything. Jesus, you're the center of it all. Teach us to feel. Teach us to move toward pain. Teach us the hope of the gospel that's full of eucatastrophe, where things seem so dark and yet you turn on a dime and make it light So we wanna, um, bring all these things to you. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen
People on this episode
.png)
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.
