Matt Marney Podcast

Episode 147: Happy Dogs, Happy Humans Guest: Cheryl Marney, IMDT-Certified Force-Free Dog Trainer

• Matt Marney

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Dogs bring so much joy, love, and laughter into our lives — but when something isn’t quite right in the relationship, it can cause real stress for owners and even entire families.

In this episode, Matt is joined by Cheryl Marney, a reward-based dog trainer certified by the IMDT (Institute of Modern Dog Trainers). With years of experience helping owners and dogs build better bonds, Cheryl brings a compassionate, practical approach to canine wellbeing — one rooted in kindness, clarity, and understanding.

Together, they explore the bi-directional relationship between dog and human wellbeing — and why helping your dog feel safe, seen, and understood is one of the most powerful things you can do for your own mental health.

In this conversation, they explore:

  • The importance of breed-specific needs — and how to meet them in daily life
  • Why enrichment matters — with a special focus on scent work at home and on walks
  • How sleep impacts canine behaviour, mood, and overall health
  • Subtle signs that your dog may be in pain or feeling unwell
  • How to read your dog’s body language to assess comfort in different environments
  • What to consider before choosing a doggy day care
  • Why small changes can make a big difference to your dog’s emotional safety

If you want your dog to feel happy, healthy, and secure — and you want less stress at home — this episode is full of practical tips and heartfelt advice you can start using today.

Want to connect with cheryl? See details below:

 

 

 

If you have a question for the podcast or are interested in working with Matt, you can reach out at:

 

 

SPEAKER_00:

The Matt Marnie Podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello, welcome to episode 147 of The Matt Marnie Podcast. And in today's episode, I welcome back my sister, Cheryl Marnie. Cheryl is a reward-based dog trainer based in the UK, and she has years of experience helping owners and dogs build better bonds. Cheryl brings a compassionate, practical approach to canine well-being, one rooted in kindness, clarity, and understanding. And really, we're doing this episode because of this bi-directional relationship between the dog and human well-being. And we're going to look at all sorts of topics. There's so much useful information here. The importance of the breed that you pick. Each breed has specific needs, so it's important to understand that. We delve into enrichment. I mean, this is a huge area which is so crucial for dogs' well-being. This involves stuff like scent work at home and on walks. And we're going to look at all sorts of topics. the value of sleep, subtle signs that your dog might be in pain or feeling unwell and how to read, you know, dog's body language, what to consider before choosing doggy daycare and why small changes can make a huge difference to your dog's emotional safety. So if you want your dog to feel happy, healthy and secure, and you want less stress at home, this episode is full of practical tips and heartfelt advice that you can start using today. And just a heads up, Cheryl's internet connection cuts out every so often. It's not for a long period and it doesn't detract from the useful information here. Enjoy. Cheryl, welcome to the show. It's good to have you back.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me and thanks for asking me to come on.

SPEAKER_01:

My pleasure. My pleasure. So it's 10 o'clock in the UK right now. Have you been up too much today? Busy? I

SPEAKER_00:

have been out and walked a dog this morning. Okay. Actually, mum came with me. Did she? Yeah, she came and met Walter the Basset. And then I've got some stuff to do later this afternoon. But yeah, I had a nice early walk with Walter and the weather is cooled down in Cornwall now it's a lot nicer bit of rain so yeah it was nice good start to the day

SPEAKER_01:

you're the first British person I've ever heard say I'm glad we've got rain because there's been a bit of a mini heat wave hasn't there in the UK it's been like it's been warm for a period of time

SPEAKER_00:

yeah I don't personally like the heat and then you've got the issues with the dogs so the heat affects the dogs and then yeah I quite like the cold and the it to be fair

SPEAKER_01:

well yeah mind you you're kitted out you've got all the gear and you've got like rain max and boots and all that stuff um so before we kick off um obviously you were on a few months back you were in october but uh i'll reference that podcast but yeah why don't just introduce introduce yourself to the listeners show who you are what you do

SPEAKER_00:

yeah okay matt um so my name's cheryl obviously marnie like matt um uh i'm based down in uh west cornwall hail uh you dog trainer started off as a dog walker went into dog training reward based force free dog training and I've been doing that the training now for over five years now and just yeah absolutely love it best thing I've ever done get to spend my days helping people and their dogs so yeah that's basically That's what I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You've also got your own podcast now. We'll talk about that at the end as well. So if anyone's listening to that and they think, I want a bit more of that. I want a bit more information. We Love Dogs. Is it We Love Dogs

SPEAKER_02:

podcast?

SPEAKER_01:

We Love Dogs podcast. Excellent. So we'll reference that at the end. Now, the previous podcast was, if people were interested, we did one on puppies and early stage development. It was in October last year. People might be listening and thinking, dogs on a wellbeing podcast. Why? Well, if anyone knows dog owners or is a dog owner, they will know the huge amount of joy and well-being these creatures bring to people's lives. But equally, I think it's important to know that if there are behavioural issues with dogs or the relationship's not working, it causes a huge amount of stress for people. It really does. It takes over their lives. with yourself and Ella. And you guys were talking about dogs. I was staying with you for a period of time. And it blew my mind, actually, how complex this relationship is between a dog and a dog owner. I had no idea. I was listening to you guys. And that's why I got you on the podcast, actually, off the back of that conversation. And I just don't think people realize how much they can do. And even small things they can do to really boost the well-being of their dog because this is a bi-directional kind of thing it's not like you buy a dog and the dog gives you well-being it's kind of like this is a relationship and so I just think this is a really big part of people's well-being you know so it's a similar thing is like you join a gym and you never go it's like well buy a dog if you don't invest in that dog if you don't you know boost the emotional well-being of that that creature you're not going to get the benefits you So what I'm hoping today is that we can give listeners, because there are a lot of dog owners in the world, a huge amount, we can give listeners some really valuable tips, takeaways, and hopefully some light bulb moments, which just sort of change the way they look at dogs. Because I'll level with you, Cheryl. Before I sat with Ella last summer, I was listening and then did the podcast. I didn't really have any idea. I do not look at dogs in the same way now. I kid you not. I send you voice notes, don't I? Yeah, and videos. And videos. And I'm not even a dog owner. I'm not kidding. It has been that impactful that I've never really thought of it in this way. It really is powerful once you understand this stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I mean, I've got a list of kind of questions from clients and listeners, but I thought rather than going into kind of problem solving first, let's just talk about, I suppose, how we meet. the needs of these dogs, these emotional creatures. So, yeah, over to you, Cheryl. How do we set up this foundation? How do we make sure our dogs are happy and healthy and vibrant?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so, well, first I was going to say the conversation in my house with Ella, he's always dogs. That's what we talk about. When you said that, it made me think. needs of a dog um it isn't it isn't rocket science really uh we have to look at dogs as they are sentient beings they have feelings they have emotions um they feel a lot of what we feel not everything but a lot so people sometimes will say why do you compare them to children because they have like the mind's sort of capacity of a two or two year old child a dog um so thinking about it in that way. So meeting the needs is we have to obviously do all the sort of main things. We have to make sure they're you know x and you know they're fed they're all that kind of basic stuff that people do when they get a dog but it goes beyond that that isn't just that isn't it we have to look at what the dog obviously like i think we spoke about the last one dogs are all kind of most dogs not all of them some were sort of bred for like almost like lap dogs and didn't really have a role but most dogs were bred for a role a long time ago and we spoke about it before so they have certain traits we need to give them a way to an outlet for that trait or they will go and find problems themselves so example I went and saw a puppy yesterday a beautiful puppy owner was a little bit struggling and he's a retriever he's always got things in his mouth so we put into place stuff that he would love to do so he loves to chew he loves to pick things up We changed all that. By the end of the session, he was out asleep on the floor, right? He was happy. He was content. We went for a five-minute walk. That's all we did. But the other stuff was what we put into place. So the stuff that he needs.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So just in case people haven't listened to the previous podcast, but again, this was a mind blower for me. This was me listening to you and Ella sitting on the sofa talking about greed. So I think quite often, People say, let's get a dog. We've got a family unit. Let's get a dog. That would be good. And let's just pick a dog. That's small and fluffy. His poos won't be too big. Let's get that. And actually, I mean, if people want to understand, there's a lot more to it. Even sourcing your puppy. Like, you know, you spoke in detail in the last podcast about going to see breeders. I mean, there's a whole thing you can look into before. But fundamentally, you know, different dogs Dogs are bred for different reasons. And you have to think about the breed you're going to buy if you are able to provide an environment that stimulates its needs. So just an example, you just mentioned a Labrador there. What would be off the top of your head, a dog that needs lots of activity? So let's say you're a busy person and you're out of work all day. What would be a dog that you wouldn't want to get? So that's active.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there's lots of different ones. So you obviously got ones that need more exercise than others. So let's just say, for example, you've got Chihuahua. They don't need a huge amount of

SPEAKER_01:

exercise. They're the little things, are they, Chihuahuas?

SPEAKER_00:

Tiny little, yeah. Ella's obsessed with Chihuahuas. That's probably going to be our next dog. They don't need a huge amount of exercise. And then you've got your, you know, you've got your kind of gundog breeds or your like herding breeds. So things like your labs, things like sort of like pointers. you think your colleagues all those kind of sort of dogs they do need physical exercise plus people miss out the mental exercise as well so they'll run their dog ragged for an hour throwing a ball but they don't do anything with the mind but so yeah you've got very you've got different and to be fair you can go online and you can research breeds you can find out information of what sort of exercise they need things even things like grooming you know do they shed a lot do they need to be groomed so you can find all of that easy online and you've got to fit it to yourself so for me example because I work with a lot of dogs and I'm out working with dogs sometimes it's hard for me to then exercise my own dogs because I'm so busy with others so going forward, my next breed would be one that didn't need as much exercise. That's just me. And you do need to look at the sort of traits of what that dog's going to do. So a collie is a good one. They were obviously used to herd sheep. They can come along and then start trying to herd children and moving things. So there is... There is so much to look at, but there is so much information out there, just basic information about the breed in general, what they usually come with, and to look at parents, and even if you can look at grandparents of the dog, because genetics is a huge role as well.

SPEAKER_01:

I know for someone like you, Cheryl, this seems just so obvious, but I honestly, I just don't think people are considering any of this stuff when they purchase a dog. No, they don't. The majority of people. And so it's, so the to any listeners now who, and we can talk about challenges that dogs face, but you really need to think about, you know, if you can provide the outlet for that specific breed. And as you said, the information's out there. Now I was going to, I was going to segue into kind of certain issues that, that dogs have, but you just touched on something, which again, blows my mind. You mentioned the mental side of a dog, which again, I, everyone just assumes physical. Just run them ragged. It doesn't matter. Dogs love a walk. Do you take your dog out? Oh, yeah, I walk them. But actually, the mental side of it is fascinating and probably more important than the physical stuff. So would that come under the banner of enrichment? Is this what we're talking about when we talk about this? Let's double-click on that, Cheryl, because I think this whole enrichment thing, again, I was talking to clients of mine the other day. I was talking about this. podcast and they've got like a desert dog and it's hyper as hell yeah there's a dog hyper as hell really hyperactive those are doggy daycare all this stuff and we'll talk about maybe why that might be problematic but absolutely no no thought around this stuff which i just gave them a couple of little things you told me and they thought i was a magician oh my god i never considered that so let's let's let's double click on that show enrichment for dogs so let's say you're ticking the physical well-being box you're able to walk your dog as much as it needs to what is enrichment why do dogs need it

SPEAKER_00:

so enrichment we look at enrichment. So an example, a couple of examples would be like, I don't know, you know, like zoo animals, you've probably seen in the zoos, these things that they make for these animals that they have in the zoos, it will replicate natural behavior that the wild animal words express, you know, catching food, stuff like that. It's similar to dogs. So we want to give them an opportunity to kind of replicate what they would naturally do. So, So things like sniffing, licking, chewing, those sorts of things, they're all very, they provide nice calming stuff, activities. It lets all those nice chemicals out in the brain, helps the dog to chill. And again, it's just, I mean, people think puppies should just chew. All dogs should be given stuff to chew, safe chews. And then you've got things like-

SPEAKER_01:

All

SPEAKER_00:

dogs, sorry, all dogs. All dogs, all dogs. Chewing, when obviously people have puppies, yeah, they're huge. usually chewy aren't they they're chewy chewy they're bitey bitey because they're teething and everything else but dogs need that natural thing to chew um they need to be able to use their nose again scent work very simple just getting them to search for food and stuff with their nose that would what they would be doing in the wild they'd be sent they'd use and scent um things like dig, tear things up. There's so many different things that naturally a dog would do. If we don't give them the chance to do any of this, this is when a lot of behavioural problems come up. So just example, the puppy yesterday I saw, he wasn't having any chews. He's owner, you know, go to people and I'm surprised, but they just, they don't know. So he's doing things like chewing her trees, like her nice big plants in her garden. He's digging out all her plants. And I always say to people, if your dog digs, get them a little sand pit, stick it in the garden. That's their digging area. So we want to give them stuff to do, but also they there is quite a few little rules when it comes to enrichment. You don't want to make it difficult for them. So they get frustrated. It's also, we liked it to sort of be goal orientated if we're trying to change a behavior. So there needs to be something that, and it's got to meet, like, it's got to be, we try and do it breed specific. So again, if you've got a dog that say, for example, loves to, ball um or the digging or anything the dog loves to do we it's got to be individualized for the dog so the dog's got to enjoy it but we look at their traits as well as a breed so what would they love to do what would they be doing and then we replicate that so we're giving them that and it it's the difference it makes for dogs lives is is just huge absolutely huge

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, we look at the modern human, right, and we're talking about this mental health crisis we have and, you know, and we're not moving and we're stuck. People say, we're not doing stuff we're supposed to have been doing. We're supposed to be out, you know, moving our bodies, hunting, gathering, and we've got this mental health crisis. It makes so much sense. And I just want to backtrack a little to the scent work because, again, I do not think people understand this and The reason I say this is because of what you shared with me, what I've learned from you. And I'm not even a dog owner yet, but me and Karen are like, we're fully prepped. We're not far off, chefs. We're not far off. When we come back to the UK, there'll be a discussion, a conversation with you first before we embark on it. But I see people that, I live in a part of Dubai, the Golden Mile, and there are, it's incredible. There are lots of fluffy dogs, right? Loads of them. So many. I'll send you videos, all the dogs. People get paid to walk The dogs. It's a part of the economy here, right? And you just see people just marching along, pulling the dog. The dog's trying to sniff. And so let's just, let's park there a little bit. And so if someone's taking their dog on a walk, slow down and let them sniff stuff. And why is that so important for a dog?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I see that all the time and it gets me sad. And if I'm honest, it makes me feel sad because I look at a dog walk is a walk for that dog okay we get something from it but that dog that dog's being walked for that dog um so i said yeah i do see it all the time and i mean i know we i know sometimes we've got to walk our dogs and we've got to get somewhere we've got to walk them before work or something but you need to give yourself more time then as simple as that you know you need to it's that so scent work main sense is there is the dog's nose um just for a comparison so uh a dog's got or like up to four 300 million scent receptors and we've got like six. So that's the difference. Yeah. I just see coffee all over my mind. 300 million. 300 million sort of scent receptors. So, and also their nose is incredible. So when a dog, you know, you've got the dog's nose. If you picture a dog's nose, it's got like a slit at the side and then it's nostrils and then a slit. So it breathes in and goes out. Yeah. So as they breathe in, it goes out. So they're not like us, like in and out. It's like a constant flow. So they get all this scent. And they usually have a right nostril bias, which is when they use their right nostril first. And then if they like it, they'll go on to the other nostril.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh, look out for that. The little lean to the right. And if they check you on the left, they like it. Oh,

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't know that. Because if they're not sure, or the smell might be a bit, like I say, offensive, but it might worry them or something like that, then they might not want them for further scent. But, yeah, so they see the world through their nose. Dogs see the world through their nose. They pick up, Matt, honestly. They're incredible. They can pick up, you know, they bring them in for therapy, like picking up Hansa. Yeah, yeah. They do. Obviously, you've got all the normal kind of working scent dogs, like Bomb, Money, you know, Drugs, dogs, they send them in to sniff out anything. The thing is the dogs enjoy it so much. And I did a podcast with Jamie Pound from UK Sniffer Dogs. And his podcast blew my mind because what he went into with it. But he was explaining how the search, even though the dogs get rewarded with their toy or their food at the end of it, the search is what is amazing for the dogs. And it changes their respiration rate. It releases all those amazing chemicals. in their brain it's just the most strong and powerful thing i think you could do for your dog when it comes to kind of enrichment and stuff

SPEAKER_01:

so if we're talking about making your dog happier and healthier one simple hack for someone listening to this today is when you go out for a walk with your dog just simply slow down

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

and allow the dog to just almost lead the walk for periods let them lead the walk let them sniff and go where they want and you you told me in the last podcast that they like they obviously we see dogs and they go straight in to sniff each other's backside that's a dog thing isn't it they sniff but you said they they understand the smells they communicate what's going on in the dog community if a dog's

SPEAKER_00:

urine yeah so they can pick up a lot of information from urine and stuff like you say if the dog kind of age if it was a male female if that dog's got any kind of illness so that's like another kind of indication if you're getting dogs bothering your dog sniffing around all their areas a bit too much sometimes that could be an indication that your dog's got something going on

SPEAKER_02:

wow

SPEAKER_00:

it's just little things yeah honestly their nose is so incredible they can smell blood like you have the, is it Godiva dogs, Godiva dogs, the body dogs. So they can, they can find blood that's been washed away. It's just, they're, you know, you've got search dogs, search dogs that go out and find people. You've got the search dogs that go out and find missing dogs. So I do scent work classes and the scent work classes, you find as well that if you've got a dog that's quite maybe overexcited, frustrated, maybe even a bit active you can get them not engaged with their nose they forget the world they calm down it's amazing

SPEAKER_01:

so can we we can layer this so you know we i've just said just take time let your dog lead the walk let them use this sensory uh experience as a as an owner can you can you make that a little bit more goal orientated can you can you enrich that that experience even more

SPEAKER_00:

yeah you can just do things like at first you can just do sensory simple food hunt so you could hide bits of food under things and let them go out in the garden and search and then so for example with scent work we use the um you can use lots of different scent you can use gunner or patnit um but to start off with you just use the red kongs most dog owners will know what a red kong is it's like a toy because it's manufactured the same way the scent is always the same so you we use that so we teach them to find that and it's incredible first couple of weeks they're just starting to learn and then all of a sudden you set up search areas and they go off and they find it and you're like wow like it is

SPEAKER_01:

in their garden or in the park or how would you do it

SPEAKER_00:

yeah anywhere you could do it at home in the front room you could do it you could do it in your garden you could do it like you say you can do it on walks you can hide bits of food we used to hide guys red kong and we'd hide it on a walk and I'd let him go and he'd go find it So he could be there for 10 minutes searching. But when he found it, he was like tired. Like he'd come home. Like honestly, if anyone wants to do something with their dog, I would say look for scent work classes because it's so enriching. It's so amazing watching your dog, but you get this kind of buzz from it. Honestly, it makes you think, wow, incredible, your dog is. That's what it makes you feel.

SPEAKER_01:

I suppose in a way, I remember you telling me about this as well, when they're using their senses, it actually mentally tires them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because even a dog who's struggling maybe physically, an older dog with arthritis, you can still wear a dog out. I think you told me this. You can still wear a dog out by just giving it loads of exposure. Cognitively, they feel fatigued. It's like people who sit there all day and work at a desk. Cognitively, they're tired at the end of the day. They still want to sit down and chill. So scent work, enriching that, lots of different strategies for that. And I suppose the big takeaway for listeners is just slow down. Let your dogs sniff and smell because they are getting so much from that experience.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's really important. It's something people miss out. Like I said, people just completely miss it out of their dogs' lives.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So there's some other stuff. So we can do the scent work. But when we talk about enrichment, I read somewhere about just varying the walks could be quite useful. So are there any other tips and tricks that you have when it comes to enrichment?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, there's loads you can go. So what people I work with, I give them, I give them a ton of, ton of handouts and ideas of all different enrichment stuff. You can use toys, food, so many different, I mean, puzzles, things like that. You know, like the puzzles that you can buy. They're good. If the dog doesn't get frustrated, that's key. So a puzzle for a dog. Yeah. They're all different things. They have to, they put food in them. Yeah. Put food and they have to do things. things like learn how to you know maybe slide something across to get the food out they use their nose or their paw or something you know or take little bits off the top of it um they're great but for some dogs it can if they can't do it it can be frustrating okay so the one rule about enrichment is it's never meant to be frustrating because that would never for a dog it's got to be something they enjoy something that's quite easy they've got to have choice so if they don't want to interact with whatever it is they don't have to um so this yeah honestly like to go off the top of my head but you can set up easy little things like get an old toilet roll tube as long as your dog and safety is important so if your dog eats if your dog eats cardboard don't use cardboard

SPEAKER_02:

okay

SPEAKER_00:

but if your dog did it so you know example putting a toilet roll tube sticking some treats in is over let your dog go and tear it open boxes tear them open get all the stuff out There's so much, so much online that you can get ideas. There's enrichment groups on Facebook for dogs. Even, like you say, certain walks can be enriching. So you take them somewhere new with new smells and you let them sniff. So put them on a long training line. If they've not got great recall, whatever, pop them on a line and just let them do what they need to do. That's what you said. Let the dog lead the walk. They're not going into any danger or let the dog. go where they feel they want to go because there's something over there it's just yeah what I'm trying to say is is enrichment there's there's lots you can do with it but what it is it's it's how important it is if we miss this out on our in our dogs lives we could either get behavior issues or you could get a really pressed down dog that's not got not got that stuff in its life that it needs

SPEAKER_01:

i

SPEAKER_00:

mean

SPEAKER_01:

you said to me just before we came on we were talking about enrichment and i think the old school approach is like you you buy a dog you don't think about the dog doesn't matter what the breed is the dog is a dog it's going to make me happy and then like dogs just left in gardens or left in a house all day staring at a wall

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

like you said these are emotional beings and creatures they're like two-year-old kids they have emotions they have feelings they get depressed and they act out it's like you said to me if you were sat at home all day not doing anything not being stimulated how would you feel and it and i was thinking then when you were just talking about just the exercise thing imagine like all i did was sit in the house all day staring at four walls And then someone let me out to go for a run. It's like, okay, the run would be cool. I mean, I'll run and I'll maybe get rid of some energy or whatever, but I'm still going to come home. If I'm not being stimulated by conversation and engagement with other people, I'm still going to feel depressed. So just walking your dog twice a day is not covering the bases in terms of making sure your dog is happy

SPEAKER_02:

and

SPEAKER_01:

loving like we all want. So enrichment, look into it, different walks, different sounds, puzzles, I don't even know what you're that so look if you care about your dogs and you're listening start small find a trainer find classes but this is a really important it's almost like the foundation isn't it for well-being

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

like set this stuff up

SPEAKER_00:

it's a must and it's missed all the time and

SPEAKER_02:

massively

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and it and it can be so simple and it doesn't take a lot of to do and it doesn't take a lot of time things like the scent stuff you could if they got dry dog food and you got a garden you could throw their dinner out into the garden and let them go find it it's just little bits like that so yeah

SPEAKER_01:

you think that's wrong is it well you just said take their bowl throw their dry food on the grass

SPEAKER_00:

grass and let them go sniff and find if they would love it they'll be tired they'll get to search for their food and you know because dogs that kind of like to forage don't they and search use the nose so you can implement that with just their feeding times it makes it better than feeding them out of the bowl just simple things like that you can change

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing. Great tip, Shell. So we're talking about dogs' well-being before we go into tackling problems. Something that you mentioned to me before is about dogs feeling safe. So we want to feel safe from an emotional standpoint. Let's delve into that now. How do we make our dogs feel safe?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so we want to make them feel safe emotionally, don't we? So what we want is our dogs to see us as that point of safety. So there's always that trust with us. We're not going to cause them any pain, fear, anything like that because of something they've done, something they choose to do, whatever it is. It's really hard. I'm a reward-based, like, force-free dog trainer. And you know yourself, I've told you before, you've got the two sides of our kind of training. You've got the punishment side and you've got our side. So dogs are brought into the world by a lot of people, into our homes, and then... the dog to know what to do and if the dog doesn't know what to do they'll get punished or corrected for that and expected then just to not do what they were doing so a bit like we was talking with the natural you know the natural stuff that dogs do and these things that they they sort of show us and all these behaviours they're all dog they're all normal dog behaviour it's normal dog behaviour it's what dogs are people forget that they're not robots they're they are dogs they get brought into this world our human world, and we go, oh, well, they've got to do this. My dog should do this. I want my dog to do this. We need to make sure that the safety of the dog is because all the enrichment stuff, so they can do what they need to do, but also when it comes to teaching them what we want them to do, but in a kind way. It's as simple as that. We do not need to make our dogs feel that they've got a fear We should be their safety bubble. We should be the ones that when they're worried about something, we've got their backs. We know what to do. We don't force them into situations that they don't want to do either.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, you see so many people, I mean, I've been around it, shouting at their dogs, screaming at their dogs, dog, no, get down, stop it. Slapping the dog, throwing the dog in there. So again, with this frame of this emotional creature this being like you said that is you know vulnerable like any person would be or being would be if the person that is looking after you you're master, whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_00:

Mum or dad, that's the way I look at it. Mum or dad, yeah, master,

SPEAKER_01:

that's probably a wrong term. Sounds a bit colonial.

SPEAKER_00:

Or we say families, families of the

SPEAKER_01:

dogs. Yeah, if your family is not safe, then you're traumatised. Exactly that. We see it with kids that are brought up in dysfunctional families where there's physical and mental abuse. They're dysfunctional. So treating your dogs well. Don't shout at your dogs, don't scream at your dogs, make your Dogs feel welcome. And would safety, I mean, there's safety in the house. Does that mean going outside as well? Because often we just go out of our dogs, don't we? We just expose our dogs to whatever. We take them to the pub or we take them, we send them off to doggy daycare. They've not went to it. They've not said, oh, I fancy spending a day with like a load of big Dobermans or whatever. So yeah, are there any other considerations when it comes to not just the environment, but how we make our dogs feel safe outside the house?

SPEAKER_00:

yeah exactly what you said so one with one we control everything our dogs do everything from the moment they eat when they go to toilet when they sleep we control all of that humans control it the dogs have very minimal choice in their lives very minimal um so this is why again with enrichment we give them choices we allow them to do things but yes the safety extends outwards of course it does that's so when they go out into the world this is there's a misconception the thing about we say socialization but the dog's experience in stuff from a very early age to... So it doesn't frighten them, those sort of things. People get told, let them eat every dog, every this, their blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, what people tend to do is force their dogs into these situations. And you can look at the dog and you can see it's terrified or it's really uncomfortable. But the owner's not seeing that. So the owner's like, come on, you're going to say hello to this dog. You're going to do this. So... comes down to people not actually and and don't get me wrong people are not wrong for this it's just because they don't know that i never bash people for you know sometimes maybe doing things that didn't help their dog they didn't do anything wrong they just didn't know so we need to understand that their body language that's a huge it's so important to understand when your dog feels uncomfortable um and the signs of that because then that's when you can help your dog if your dog displaying signs that they're not comfortable in a situation, you can then take them out of that situation. And they're like, oh, great, thanks for that. You know, they don't say that, but it's like, oh, my, you know, my mum and dad kind of looked after me. And what

SPEAKER_01:

would, what would, I know it's going to be different dog to dog, but what would be sort of certain telltales that the dog isn't that comfortable?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so lots of different things. So you've got to look at it as a whole, because you've got to look at the situation the dogs in so if a dog so example yawning or like hunting that say you saw a dog doing that if it was really hot outside look because it's hot do you see what I mean so we have to look at the situation but lots of different signs you tail tucking you know if a dog tucks its tail it's usually really uncomfortable it's not

SPEAKER_01:

wagging it tucks it literally under its legs

SPEAKER_00:

yeah you see that with quite fear fear and stuff remember a waggy tail isn't all a happy tail

SPEAKER_01:

okay

SPEAKER_00:

details have different um and we have dogs without tails so they can't give off that

SPEAKER_01:

um yeah what do they do wiggle their booty i mean

SPEAKER_00:

what does it do yeah yeah yeah i mean it's it's you've i mean some dogs have they have their tails docked but that's for like a different conversation but so a dog that maybe doesn't have a tail you've lost that kind of A tail has many different meanings, the way it wags, the way it's held. So you'll have a happy... So, yeah. So learning about the tail wag is important. But then also things like when their tongue flicks. So when their tongue flicks up quite a bit, so it looks like a lick. You might see the white of the dog's eyes. Their ears may go back. Their body will change. It'll stiffen or their mouth will go tight. So... There's all these telltale signs and they can be really, really small and they can be really, really quick. So it's so important to learn about dog body language. Do you know what? I almost feel like it should be a thing that you've got to do before you can get a dog is learn these basic bits. I know it would never happen, but people will hug their dogs and cuddle their dogs and the dog is given so many signs it doesn't want to be hugged, but people don't realise. So they keep doing it. And this is when dogs get maybe bite or the snap at the owners and things like that. But so even things like turning their head away and things like that. But remember, because dogs communicate with each other through language. So that's their language. That is how they tell. You'll get vocalization. You'll get growls and things like that. But they'll give off these little signs that they're not comfortable. And they are just, they're not maybe. People don't know. People miss it. And then eventually the dog, the body language isn't working. So then the dog will maybe go to more things like it will go to air snapping or kind of things like that.

SPEAKER_01:

We're talking sort of not feeling safe with other dogs, right? So there might be a dog. You go out on regular dog walks. You meet other dog owners. And, you know, dog owner community love a little chat, don't they? Have a

SPEAKER_00:

chat.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. What we're saying is just when you're out and about out

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

start paying attention to your dog

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

is what we're saying you know we're not telling people you've got to become a body language expert but just start like you would with your child if he was in a nursery and you saw you you know two toddlers running around and you're you know your toddler was in the corner sort of cowering away from another toddler you think oh they're not comfortable you'd be straight over yeah yeah take them out of that situation or they or they slap the other kids you think what's going on here so that's what I'm picking up from this. We're not asking people to become body language experts, but just

SPEAKER_00:

know your dogs.

SPEAKER_01:

Pay attention and then maybe you might adopt the walk or go different places if it's a problem for your dog. And this makes me think about the whole doggy daycare thing because it's rampant here in Dubai. So people get dogs and they just, the vans pull up and the dogs are excited, they're going off for the day, but you have no idea If that dog's, you know, you might see the tail wagging, but what you're saying is the tail wagging might actually be, I'm shitting myself. Actually, you've got to go off to this place now for the whole day where I'm, you know, I'm unhappy. So I don't think there are trained people in these places. They just literally let the dogs roam around in these big spaces with other dogs. So maybe monitor how your dog is. So someone I know, their dog goes to doggy daycare and they do it because they think it exhausts the dog and the dog will be happy. But their feedback is the dog is hyper as hell when it comes back, but they send it because they feel they have to.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So doggy daycare is a hard one. We've got quite a few in the UK. You know, it's a big thing now. It has to be licensed here by the council. So that's one thing you should look for. I wouldn't bash doggy daycares, but what I say is some are better than others. Right. Daycares, obviously they've got rules and regulations of how many dogs to people they can have. But like you said about the hyperactiveness, a lot of doggy daycares, unfortunately, the dogs will be there all day and the dogs will get no rest. So... a dog an adult dog really should still be hitting about 16 hours sleep in 24 hours so puppies you're looking at 18 to 20 and you want to yeah so realistically dogs have to have their awake time but they also really really need this sleep time um so some daycares they just don't get that because it's just too much going on and they don't get it um so and also it depends how the daycare mixes the dogs again do they know much about body language do they know if that dog's uncomfortable is that dog you know too much for that group and it's like i said daycares can be run really well but then they can be run really badly unfortunately

SPEAKER_01:

right so we're saying for listeners that you can actually a bit like when we discussed the puppies in the last episode there's lots of stuff you can do to ensure you're giving yourself as best opportunity to get a well-rounded puppy, if that makes sense, a non-traumatized puppy. And it's the same with doggy daycares. Now, let's kind of hover over the sleep thing there because that's huge. So a dog gets picked up in the morning at, like, I don't know, 8 o'clock in the morning. It comes back at 5. It's out for the whole day.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's not

SPEAKER_01:

getting– yeah. So should a good doggy daycare be catering for that? Should you be saying, like, Is there a place my dog, will they have individual kennels where they should be able to go and sleep and actually have a rest?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I

SPEAKER_00:

wonder if anyone even

SPEAKER_01:

knows that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so that's like, you would, if I was looking for a daycare for my own dog, for example, I'd want to know ratio of dogs, how they set their dogs up in groups. So, you know, are the staff qualified? Do they have any kind of, even though it's unregulated, the training world, but do they have any backgrounds with things like body language and and all that stuff do they get enrichment while they're there um or are they just sat there or running around with dogs all day but the big one is do they have times where they that's it it's kind of like right it's sleep time rest time now we're going to go off even if the dogs don't sleep they're given that quiet time and area to rest um and unfortunately some don't do that it's got some are just a free fall the dogs will just run in there'll be a lot of dogs and that's all they'll do all day They'll just run around. And it'd be like, if you look at a kiddie's nursery, Matt, you know, the structure to a kiddie's nursery, they'll have all their activities, enrichment. They would do, you know, just from listening to mum working in nurseries, they would have sleep time. The children have to go down for a sleep. So, yeah, just be careful. When your dog goes to a daycare, always monitor their behaviour. If you see a change, then... You need to question why the dog's behavior's changed, what's happening at doggy daycare. But also, instead of that, could your dog cope with a dog walker, you know, a good dog walker that comes in, collects your dog, takes them for a nice bit of exercise, does some... The good thing about dog walkers is they can practice all those nice bits like recall and stuff like that while they're on the walks. And then they drop the dog back and the dog then can go back and settle and go to sleep and have that sleep that they need. So I know it depends for the dog, because some dogs, if they're struggling with separation anxiety or anything like that, the owners are in a situation where they're buggered, basically. They can't go to work, so they can't leave the dog on its own.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's when doggy day care might be just because it's around people?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the dog's not on its own, because obviously you've got the separation. I mean, there's different options, but yeah, I think a lot of, people that dogs suffer with separation anxiety, they do have to look at daycare because they can't go work. You know, if your dog's really stressed in the house and, you know, they could be barking, they could be, you know, destroying some things in the house, they could be urinating, you know, all these different stress. It's not even about just being a nuisance. They're in a really bad place. They're stressed. People think, well, maybe I should pop them in daycare where they're going to be looked after all day. And then, you know that's so that's why people obviously choose that

SPEAKER_01:

and maybe then you look at you look at the training situations around that i mean i'm conscious of your time show and i i we've got i've got a lot of questions about sort of challenges but i i think we park that for another day i want to i want to just stay here on the well-being stuff because i think these are the fundamentals the most important thing it's fascinating we can do we can do another episode where we look at specific stuff so let's just just stay there with a sleep because that just just just triggered so many ideas in my head about the way... I don't know. The dog is just a dog. You come in early. People get up. They start stroking the dog. They're letting the dog out. There might be kids around in the house. It's a hectic household. Sleep's not really a consideration for the dog. It's just like, get in your bed. Get in your cage. My friend's trying out for a cup of tea. Get in there. Sleep. Or maybe people around. So yeah I mean so owners need to be considering the environment at home and 16 hours kit they need particularly if you're giving them the enrichment stuff so if you're giving the enrichment stuff they definitely need downtime that helps as well

SPEAKER_00:

that helps with because what a lot of people will say is that I get people say to me well I can't get my dog to go to sleep they won't sleep um so we need to look at why they won't sleep first off are they comfortable in their bed are they is the area that they're sleeping in comfortable for them do they feel happy in that area it's not just about oh do this and they'll sleep but then we can do things like encourage them we'll try and with something enriching that's calming we'll try all these different things there's loads of different things you can do We do need to try and encourage the sleep where we can. We need to try and help the dog to switch off and learn to get that really important rest. Because without it, honestly, the dogs... You know you were saying about hyper dogs. That's kind of the behaviour you get. That's what you can see sometimes. Dogs bouncing off the wall, like bouncing. There's no... They can't... They're overtired and they don't really... their behavior just goes oh and then they'll go oh my dog's doing this my dog's doing that and it's just like a lot of people I work with the first thing I'll do is I'll go into their home regardless of what it is they've got a problem with something like loose lead walking we'll look at right let's look at what's going on at home what they do in sleep what they do in enrichment what they do in exercise how do they feel when they're outside what does their body language look like are they happy to be outside blah blah blah there's so much it's not just go right we'll do an exercise and teach your dog how to walk on a lead, there'll be something fueling fueling that behavior we say emotions fuel the behavior it's always an emotion underlying for the behavior of a dog your dog isn't doing something to annoy you

SPEAKER_01:

i mean this is a lot of talk in the human well-being space about the holistic approach to health and well-being you know and it sounds this sounds very similar there's like this is this holistic approach to dog's well-being um to sleep i mean we'll do routines as well so do dogs like you know like we do go about at 10 get up five are they the same kind of features so have some structure around when they go to bed structure about when they get up structure around meal times even if you are tossing out in the garden and giving them a rich and experience but even that kind of stuff is like the the routine is good for the dog's well-being also

SPEAKER_00:

yeah 100 is like anything isn't it it's like children they like the most love routine routine um that will definitely help but what i i've worked with a dog, quite young, but teenager, you know, the teenage stage. Just hyper hyper hyper hyper barking hyper um first thing we spoke about was sleep so what they did instead of taking their dog to work what they were usually doing they were leaving dog at home more to rest in the quiet area and they've noticed a huge difference in the dog just from that just from giving the dog the opportunity to go and have a sleep because they're thinking we need to bring the dog to work with us but actually the dog was quite happy at home having a sleep And now they've seen a difference in the behaviour. So... When you work with people and dogs, sometimes you go in and you've got all these behaviours or things that people are really struggling with and it's really challenging and you can literally tweak or change something really small in their life and it can make a huge difference. So like you were saying, the holistic side is so important because if you're trying to fix, as they say, fixed, fix a behaviour of a dog, if that dog is stressed, anxious, or difficulties with anything like that, and pain, which I'm sure we can talk about, but that affects the learning. The dog isn't going to be able to learn in that state. You know about stress. If a dog is in a stressful state, how are they going to learn? How are they going to... I'd be the same. If I was stressed, I couldn't sit down and do a course.

SPEAKER_01:

No, you can't. You can't actually... Rational thinking goes out the window. If you're stressed and then you're getting shouted at by people and you're getting slapped because you keep doing this behaviour... Absolute chaos makes absolute sense. So sleep, fundamental recovery. Let's look and talk about, you just mentioned pain, maybe pain and illness because behaviour change could be erupting out.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

How do owners, what should owners be doing to keep an eye on this situation of pain and a dog being unwell?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so... There was a study done recently to do with dogs that are reactive. So reactivity as well is a word that gets thrown around and used as a bad thing. Reactivity could be that your dog is an excited greeter. Guy was like it. Guy was like it. If you met a person, he'd be in their face. It's how a dog reacts to a certain stimuli or something. But they've done a study on a group of reactive dogs. And 80%, they found out 80% of those dogs had some sort of pain or illness. There's a huge link with pain and dog reactivity, and it's coming out more and more. So the first thing you do if you see a behavior changing in your dog, and the first thing I say to anyone is if a behavior is changing, just come out of nowhere then you have to have a thorough vet check and that's thorough that's not just guy listens to their heart you want to have bloods and everything done so you can check for inflammation and all that kind of stuff but so pain it could show in many different forms guy had arthritis in later life and i noticed because he started growling at us when we went near him and he'd never ever done that so and it wasn't him being horrible he was just saying go away i'm in pain so don't ignore a growl don't punish a growl because they're just communicating with you they're just saying like we would if someone come near us go away um things so things like behavior change like that if they're growling or you know or if they're moving away from you um and then you've got the physical stuff so obviously things like slowing down dogs are really good at masking pain that's why it comes out in their behavior so what you think is pain what you think is just bad behaviour could be pain things like the licking at the certain areas there's so many different kind of people know physically when their dog may be in pain but you've got to look at the behaviour as well because that's a big indication and people miss that they think their dog's just being naughty or just you know or they could get funny towards other dogs they could start snapping at other dogs they might not want other dogs to be close to them so this any behavior change just get your dog checked over at the vet that's definitely and um people like physios i had physio on recently on on my podcast um they're amazing because they they can assess your dog slightly differently to a vet they can look at the gait of the dog and everything that you know there's a All that, I'm not a physio, so I'm not an expert in that, but they can assess the dog properly and they can usually pick up if there's something going on. And then you can get onto a plan how to help the dog, so either meds or physio or whatever it is you decide to do. But if a dog is in pain or they're unwell, you will find it very hard to change that behaviour because of how that dog's feeling, if that makes sense. You know, there

SPEAKER_01:

is something that has just become apparent to me, which is that we've had this conversation and you've given out so much useful information. And so the overarching theme is that people... they need to pay attention to their dog's behavior. Like, you know, it sounds simple. So you're with, if someone's this tick, yeah, that's great. Some wonderful information. I think it goes back to, and I might be wrong here, but I'm not a dog owner, but it's, People just buy a dog. They buy a dog. They don't think about the breed. They don't get it checked out, where it comes from, the litter, the environment. They don't know if they can tailor for its needs. They chuck it in and then they just scream and shout and get people in. And it's like, you need to pay attention to your dogs. People care about their dogs. And like I said, I don't think they're doing it on purpose. I've seen it, Cheryl. I've seen it with you. I just see it with people I know. They just say, Matt, my friend Terry he got a dog he's like mate I had no idea I said I'm under no illusion I see the joy that these dogs bring to people and people love their dogs like love their dogs right and it's like but this seems to be the the probably the one thing people start paying attention to stuff take care and interest in the behavior of your dog because if you do you'll start to pick up on this stuff and then if you're going to implement this stuff like enrichment you don't know if it's worked unless you've got like a baseline. You don't, if you're not paying any attention to how your dog reacts or so, so take, take an interest is what I would say to listeners. Like listen to this podcast again, reach out to you, reach out to trainers. There's plenty you can do, but first thing is stop, take a moment and like have a look at this, this emotional being, this creature that you care about so much and gives you so much care and wellbeing back. It's a, it's a bi-directional thing. So I'm conscious of time show and, I sort of left this to the last sort of part of the podcast, but you were talking about physical pain, you were talking about illness. So an obvious part of this experience of being a dog owner is that our dogs leave us, our dogs pass on. And I know that you've had a particularly tough week. You mentioned Guy, you've referenced Guy a couple of times on this podcast. And I read out to you and said look it's cool if we don't do this and you said no no no we call we'll have a chat but yeah you lost you lost one of your dogs a week ago so you just maybe we'll touch on that you know maybe i don't know i don't know if there's anything any suggestions but it is a part of owning a dog so yeah guy well on a guy yeah you lost yeah you lost you lost one of your dogs a week ago

SPEAKER_00:

so i suppose yeah it's been a really i honestly he's my first dog as an adult my own dog and he was incredible and we took him on, not as a puppy. The pain is like something I've never felt in my life, honestly. It's a loss, but it's made me realise what he gave me and the kids. And that's why I wanted to say... really like it's a weird thing to say i know it sounds thingy but honestly that time you have with your dog treat it as it's their last day every day of their life because one minute they're here and next they're gone and when you were saying about paying interest to your dog it's just spend time with your dog it doesn't even have to be complicated go sit with them in the park or somewhere get a toy out play with them um throw some food on the ground and Let them sniff it out. But just... This is what people miss, that relationship and that interaction. Me and Ella done it with the boys. We'll do it, Joey. But with Guy and Joey, we used to go and get a load of food, get some toys. We'd go somewhere nice and quiet and we'd play with them. We'd just play with our dogs and they'd do things. And, you know, you've got to have that relationship and that bond because we don't have them long enough. We really don't. And, yeah, since Guy's gone and it was sudden and it was quick, It's been really, really emotional. And he is actually being taken today to be cremated and we'll have him home soon. And I think it's like his final journey today. And dog people get it. They get the pain and the loss of a dog. But what I'd say is please, and I've learned this now because I obviously... as much as possible but you really don't know when they're going to go so just take that time and spend it even if it's half an hour in the day and you just go and do something really simple with your dog be that connection it's just that time you don't get it back and it isn't very long but yeah grievings are there is a lot of support out there for people when they grieve um there's charities and often for

SPEAKER_01:

dogs when you when you lose a dog you can

SPEAKER_00:

yeah right yeah so the national the local um rescue here they have somewhere they have a person there that can do it because i actually spoke to him last week this guy was meant to be going to the kennels there um but they said if you need any do you want to talk to anyone we have people here um and actually for my for i've got an upcoming podcast soon actually that is about um it's for what i'm speaking to a vet who does a home euthanasia so she comes to the home so a lot of vets offer that yeah a lot of vets offer that but she this is what she does now it's her special like this is the thing she does so it's done in a very special way but i think so there'll be a lot of talk about bereavement on that episode and obviously she was like oh would you sure you want to do it and i said yeah of course because it's so important because when we've got a dog we don't want to think about them when they die we just go no it's never going to happen it is going to happen um and it is better that you kind of have a plan in place so you know what you're going to do it just helps uh yeah my life will never be the same without him and i've like got a whole i've just got missing part in me now um joey's really struggled with it i other dog but things will get better at times a good healer it will get easier but I will never forget him and what he gave us he was incredible

SPEAKER_01:

thank you for sharing that Cheryl yeah I appreciate it and yeah that's really super interesting and helpful for people to know that actually there's support out there and there are organisations and

SPEAKER_02:

you

SPEAKER_01:

don't have to do this on your own now you mentioned the podcast because when you came on in our october there was no podcast but since then there has now become your own podcast which is solely talking about these fluffy emotional not always fluffy sometimes hairy sometimes not hairy sometimes

SPEAKER_00:

you get bald you

SPEAKER_01:

get bald dogs bald dogs so there's a whole podcast now and the podcast is called we love dogs and it is you talking to a whole range of experts about these these fluffy creatures um So I'll put that access to that in the show notes. If you're a dog listener and you go, I want a bit more of this and I want to listen to guests. You've had all sorts of people on. You've had psychologists, physios, vets, yeah, all sorts of guests. And I'm sure this podcast is going to grow and expand. And yeah, it's a really valuable resource for people. You also offer your own training services. So what sort of stuff are you offering to owners out there, Cheryl?

SPEAKER_00:

So I do. work with like uh reactive dogs um people that are struggling with dogs that are struggling with other dogs the world but i offer so i do a lot of one-to-one stuff and where i come to people's homes but i do classes uh puppies older classes scent work gonna be starting up the hoopers again which is like a sport it's really good fun um yeah so pretty much covering all age groups and the one-to-one is more obviously more like a bespoke service you get a lot more with me mainly faced like in person obviously based in Cornwall that's where I cover but I can do some stuff online for certain things so obviously not not like Hoopers but something you know someone needs some advice or help around something yeah

SPEAKER_01:

you know sure I think I think that online option is super valuable in the modern world and people just like people want advice people are just not aware so I think it's incredible the work that you're doing and the message you're putting out and yeah we didn't get to any of the questions from listeners so that means we have to do a part three so that's absolutely fine that means I get to sit and think about dogs more before our next episode so if you are a dog owner or you know a dog owner please recommend this episode Cheryl Marnie thank you again for your time you've been amazing thank you so much

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, Matt.