98. Aggression on the Court: Caitlin Clark vs. Stephanie White

When a highly publicized interaction between Caitlin Clark and her coach, Stephanie White, captured national attention, many people focused on the visible behavior. We saw frustration, conflict, and what appeared to be defiance.

But what if there was something much deeper happening?

In this episode of The Leader in You, Dr. Lola Gershfeld and Polina explore this situation through the lens of Emotional Connection (EmC) and attachment science. Rather than asking, "Who's right?" or "Who's wrong?", they ask a more important leadership question:

What emotional need is driving the behavior?

You'll discover why aggressive or disruptive behavior is often a signal of emotional distress rather than simply a performance problem, why star performers can become disconnected from their leaders, and how emotional safety—not control—is the foundation of sustained high performance.

Whether you lead a team, coach athletes, manage high performers, or simply want to navigate difficult relationships more effectively, this episode will challenge the way you think about conflict and provide practical strategies for recognizing and repairing disconnection before it escalates.

In this episode, you'll learn:

•  Why disruptive behavior is often a signal of emotional disconnection. 
•  How attachment needs influence behavior under pressure. 
•  The difference between reacting to behavior and responding to the underlying emotional experience. 
•  Why validation and co-regulation can quickly de-escalate conflict. 
•  How leaders can recognize negative interaction cycles before they damage trust and performance. 
•  Practical EmC principles for creating emotional safety in high-pressure environments. 

Conflict isn't solved by controlling people—it is transformed by understanding the emotional experience driving the behavior. That's where lasting leadership begins.

The Leader in You is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants to create a workplace culture where teams can thrive.

Envision a future where you are more grounded, confident, and in sync with your team. 

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Connect with Dr. Lola Gershfeld:

LinkedIn: Dr. Lola Gershfeld
Instagram: @drlolaemc

Connect with Polina Marian:

LinkedIn: Polina Marian
Instagram: @livewithfivekids

Dr. Lola Gershfeld, a distinguished organizational psychologist, has dedicated her career to delving into the intricate layers of employee engagement, team dynamics, and wo...

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Experience work interactions in a different and refreshing light. This is the Leader in You podcast brought to you by EMC Leaders, taking care of the teams you care about. We bring the signs of attachment and emotional connection with insight from the last 20 years to share how you can overcome conflict issues at work and build strong team relationships as well as the connected culture.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leader in You podcast brought to you by EMC Leaders. I'm so excited to be here. I co-host this amazing podcast with the wonderful Dr. Lola Gershfeld. Welcome, Dr. Lola.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Hello, Paulina. It's so nice to be here with you. Hello, everyone. We love doing these podcasts, and today we have an exciting topic.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yes. Yes, we're so excited. So it we're in the middle of summer, and I know sometimes the summer heat gets into conflicts and into situations at work, right? It starts getting hot, the weather changes, and people's mood changes as well. And when you don't have the right tools to self-regulate your mood and your emotions, and definitely amidst conflict, you're in the right place because this is where we teach you how to use effective tools to regulate yourself and de-escalate conflicts and to be able to resolve conflicts and repair conflicts in the most effective way possible. To of course, to create this thriving environment that we all dream of at work. So we have a very interesting topic for you today. And Dr. Lola is going to give us a bit of a backstory of what happened, and then we're going to dive in to how this correlates at your work and maybe something that you're experiencing that you could possibly need some support with.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Take it away. All right. Well, on the news, there was a lot of talk about Caitlin Clark, and she's the star player at the women's uh national basketball team, and she's WNBA. Yes, uh WNBA. And she's a great, great um player, and uh what was interesting is she basically got um pushed by another player, and the opponent player had her arm into her neck, and so they called it a foul, and it was very interesting what happened after Caitlin Clark got upset at this um opponent. I don't remember her name, but she got upset, and what she was doing is she was engaging the audience, and then afterwards, Stephanie White, who is her coach, told Caitlin Clark to leave the game.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yes, so Caitlin Clark was playing in a basketball game, the opponent pushed her, and yeah, and then she like attacked her physically, which is what it seemed like the opponent, yeah. It seemed like, yeah, exactly, and because of that, Caitlin Clark turned to the crowd because she didn't feel that there was like a fair foul, like or fair call on that play.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

So they she turned to the uh um to the crowd and try to get them to kind of respond audibly, you know, to this incorrect foul call.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yes, exactly. And in that moment, I guess Stephanie uh White, her coach, like jumped up and was looking, and um Caitlin Clark was like being very upset that the referee that didn't want to give them a full foul. I'm not exactly uh 100% sure how the game plays. The dynamics that is happening between uh Caitlin Clark and Stephanie White is um has been becoming more and more tense in the last two years. And uh people sometimes view Caitlin Clark as a brat because she she just gets her way and she starts to engage the audience, and the audience responds to her. And she has done that in the past when she was playing in high school, and her dad would get really, really mad about this because she would get referees mad, she would get all the other people mad, and he would tell her, like, stop doing it, you know, just uh mind her your own business because she would get into the fights with referee. And so um, she she has this bad rap as if she's the troublemaker, but she's also a star player, and and uh the coach is trying to coach her, I guess, Brad behavior out of her, but like the body, yeah. But the problem is she's doing it of you know, she the coach is ineffective because Caitlin Clark is not even listening to her, and so also you you see the video where Stephanie White makes a decision for Caitlin to leave the game, and she's not even looking at her when she makes that decision, and so uh Caitlin leaves the game, you see two trainers following her, and then she just walks by herself, and then 12 minutes later, they announce that uh Caitlin Clark hurt her back, and that's why she's not returning to the game. So that is the whole premise of our talk today, because this is exactly what happens in the workplace. You have people who are maybe a star performers, and they are not listening to the boss or to the manager, and then they get into these dynamics that are happening, is like the company doesn't really want to fire them because they are performing really well, but also the manager is not really connecting to the and and getting really more and more upset.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

I guess it's I guess I want to hear more about how you feel like that situation should have been handled.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Well, first of all, you see that both people are trying to reach for connection, but they are using ineffective strategies. Stephanie White, who is the coach, she doesn't see that uh Caitlin Clark is basically feels unprotected, she feels alone. Right in in that situation. That's why she's engaging the audience to be supportive, to somehow help her to share her frustration. And both of them are not really sharing uh correctly their emotions that's happening. And Stephanie White, she's look look at what she's doing. She is not looking at Caitlin Clark when she says you need to leave the game. She's not explaining. So both situations are becoming more and more distressful in their relationship, so they're both missing each other. It's like you see this response from children, right? Where they get all kind of uh overwhelmed and they they become more aggressive, and uh uh they're basically saying, I need your attention, I need your attention. Where are you? Where are you? I can see you responding to me, you engaging with me. So, what I'm gonna do, I'm in panic. I'm going to uh do anything to get your attention, right? So that's what I mean. Caden Clark is has done it with her father, with her dad, the same thing. And and she doesn't feel probably valued enough by her coach, and that's why she's uh she's engaging in all of that um activity and behavior to just get their attention.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

So this is interesting. I think this is kind of a very maybe controversial topic, is the right way to put it, because in sports or in any sort of athletic competition, you're getting a lot of that aggressive coaching. You know, that's that's what I that's what I see, or even like in dance teams, you know, and um there's a lot of you know, there's media about it, and there's a lot of shows like dance moms, for example, where they are aggressive and they need the rough, violent or aggressive coaching, or and so what's your take on that? Because I do think that people think that's necessary, the talking like don't be such a baby, you know, meaning comments, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Constantly, yeah, you're using demeaning comments, yeah, putting down, putting uh like shading, right? Shading and criticizing or being aggressive, intimidating to just push people, push people over the edge, push them to high performance. And really, research shows that it works maybe short term, but long-term effect, it's very damaging for people. Most people sometimes shut down, they start to maybe cut themselves or they start to do different things that uh creates a lot of distress for people around them. So I feel like that particular, and in fact, Mari Mikelanster, who have done a lot of research on attachment in military, specifically in military, talked about the fact that when leaders do create an emotionally safe environment for their uh soldiers, soldiers respond to the stress of going to war and being out there and putting themselves out there and supporting other each other is significantly higher than soldiers when they go into fear. In the performance, I feel the same way. In order for people to perform, they do need teamwork, they do, they need each other on a team, and so if if the one performer is constantly feeling alone and isolated and feeling judged or somehow not valued, they will start to either overreact and do things that uh are not good for the team, or they start to um you know shut down and maybe they will perform in a short term really excellent, but what are they actually doing? They push themselves so hard that it becomes a big pressure for them. A lot of times they feel alone.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

So, how are they actually able to build, like you know, if we have a situation in an emergency, you know, where we have to protect ourselves, how are they able to build the ability to stay calm and have clear thinking in a situation where there is a lot of pressure or there's an emergency, or you know, how does that EMC process help support team members who do experience a workplace environment or maybe an industry, for example, that is very high pressure, that has a lot of like urgent urgency in in the workplace? How do we use that? How does that EMC process is used? Because it what you're saying is you can use it in sports, you can use it in you know, even the military, you can use it in very high stress environments. How is that scientifically speaking? How do we create that?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

One of the things uh that we want to do is we want to practice, right? It's like emergency procedures on the airplane before you take off, you always read the emergency procedures because you have to remember things, and it's the same thing with the EMC process. What the reconnection does is help you to recognize when you get triggered, what are your ROSPATs, what emotions you have, what are your automatic thoughts, what are your protective behaviors, what do you need? So all that that consistent structure, which is repeatable over and over again, it actually helps you to slow things down because the biggest thing, the biggest thing in the in any pressure, aggression, yeah, aggressive, like is to slow things down, is to be able to recognize what is happening with me, what's going on with me, how do I articulate that? I was doing a session this morning with uh um a leader, and uh he basically said that I feel so alone because my board told me to reach out to the attorney, and the attorney said this is not my problem. So I feel kind of alone. It's not my attorney's problem, it's not the board's problem. Well, if I'm going to be stuck in this uh situation, and if the situation escalates that I will have to go into lawsuit somehow, I'm going to be in the middle of all this thing, litigation, which I'm not even responsible for. So, what we did is once we had an opportunity for him to really slow things down, articulate what triggered him specifically, what Raspat hit, what uh what emotions, he started to make sense. It it became coherent, his experience became coherent. And this is the biggest problem we see in in uh um stressful situations when people cannot really express what's happening for them. So, what they do is they they start to shut down or they start to attack, they start to blame, they start to get the audience to respond because in that moment they can't hear anything else, what the coach is saying or the dad is saying, right? Caitlin Clark cannot hear anything, she's only hearing I'm alone, and in that moment, I'm gonna do anything and everything to survive. And her way of surviving is getting some engagement from the audience that they love her, and that's what she's seeking. She's seeking protection, she's seeking approval, she's seeking love from her audience.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, she wants that validation, I think, that she's not a bad person, she's not doing anything wrong, you know, and I think a lot of times we seek that validation where we're when we are feeling blamed and shamed and criticized and judged, we are really wanting to seek that validation to understand our reason and purpose and worthiness of still having a place in this world or having a place in the workplace or having that value that we bring to a relationship or a workplace situation.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Exactly. So the first thing is definitely to practice those awareness pieces about the trigger and the raw spots and emotions. The second piece is we have to focus not who is right, who is wrong, but we have to recognize that these people are in a negative cycle. So the coach and the player are in a negative cycle.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

I think also like sometimes I don't feel like we emphasize enough validating the person's experience at the moment that it's happening. So I think a lot of times that in a conflicts in the workplace, everything just moves so fast, you know, typically in a conflict, and we miss the opportunity to really just validate and create that space needed. So whether we agree, like even if the coach didn't agree with what she was doing or how she was responding, it's like had she just been validated in that moment that it was difficult for her, that she wasn't getting the right foul called on the opponent that was causing the foul, it's like that would have made such a big difference for her. Yeah, you know, it's like, and I think in so many different conflicts, there we we search so quickly for the solution, right? But it's like let's focus on just validating the experience that the person is having at the moment that it's happening so that that moment becomes so um, it's like you just are decreasing the intensity in that moment. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

You just you just explain co-regulation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Well, because I think a lot of people don't do that, and that is where, especially in like a sports game where you're it's very intense, it's very high energy, you're competing, you know, you're out there, there's a lot of pressure. So, how are we able to co-regulate in the very, very high pressure experience or situation? And we find that even maybe we don't experience that at work all the time. I do feel like there's a lot of pressure that comes in a silent way, right? There's like very high silent pressure that occurs at work that can create this kind of sense, same sense of panic and not feeling worthy and not feeling valued in the workplace and not feeling important enough to be heard and seen and validated and not experienced.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

So, yeah, absolutely. And the coach plays such a big role, like uh, you know, the parent, like a boss, they all play such a big, big role. Just even the the fact that the uh the facial expression, right? Like Caitlin Clark looks at the facial expression of Stephanie White and boom, she is she is already calling the the audience to get her to to cheer for her because she sees the disapproval on Stephanie White's face, and that is so we are so in tuned to these type of messages that the other person sends to us that we're not even aware how that becomes such a powerful um message to the other person, and the message could be wrong, right? Maybe the message is confusion, like that maybe the facial expression shows confusion, but the other person, because of their insecurity in the relationship, already reads it. Oh my gosh, my coach, my boss, my you know, they are disappointed in me. Oh my gosh, again, I've done something wrong.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Definitely, definitely. And I do think that's what I think we need to distinguish between using the EMC process and not having access to the EMC process. So when you are in tune with what's going on in the relationship and what is going on at an emotional level, you can understand the distress in the person and their behavior before the situation escalates. So it's like a lot of times managers or co-workers in a team are just reacting to the behavior that's occurring that could be disruptive or could kind of throw people off balance, or they could be off balance as well, as opposed to responding to the disconnection that's occurring, to their fear, to their shame, to their sadness, you know, those primary, uh, those primary emotions that we really need to be understanding in the situation. And so it's like it's it's either you're responding, you know, or you're reacting uh to what's happening. And I do feel like the EMC process does that so clearly and effortlessly, is like teaching you the step-by-step process and the step-by-step way, the path to being able to respond in a way to create safety in that peace, internally and externally in the relationship, as opposed to react and to create chaos. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

The negative cycle is co-created by all participants. So when we recognize that we all play a part on creating the either negative cycle or positive cycle, we all play a part on creating the emotional safety in the team relationship. It creates a um a much more collaborative approach that we are not really fighting each other, we are fighting the cycle that between us and create negative interactions that we're having. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Well, it sounds like we need to contact Stephanie White. Let her know that we're available for a session that she probably needs. Well, probably like an intensive, you know, session that she needs with Caitlin.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

They definitely need our help for sure. Yes. You can just see the explosions are getting more and more escalated and more intense.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. And what's unfortunate with that too is like, you know, we know the path and the tools to get them connected so they have a thriving experience and relationship on the court and off the court. And uh, and what ends up happening is the direction that they are going could end either of their careers. And that's what's really sad, right? Like it's like the end result is that you know, Caitlin's either gonna get kicked off the team or Stephanie is going to get fired, or whatever is gonna happen, either of them are gonna suffer at the end, or both, or one or the other will suffer without the ways of working through these kinds of conflicts, as opposed to using such a simple process, the EMC process, that really lays it out for you step by step in understanding how to you know resolve and reconnect, and then getting them back to having this thriving relationship that then can change the WNBA you know history. A hundred percent. Yes. So Sonny White or Caitlyn Clark, if you're watching, if you're listening, if you see any of our content, we're here to support you. If any of you listening or watching know how to get in touch with the WNBA or the owners of whatever organization that leads us to the right people to help support them, then we're very happy and excited to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, absolutely. And they will definitely feel a lot more relieved and connected afterwards. Definitely, yeah, that is going to make a big difference in their own professional and personal lives because it's they're suffering, they're both suffering.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Definitely, and we see this through and through with every workplace relationship inside the office and outside the office, and we see it in politics and we see it in sports, and we see it and we see it in the workplace every single day. There is not a day that goes by that we don't recognize that you could be very well listening to this and experiencing difficulties in your workplace right now, but that's what we're here for. We're here to help support you and your journey and to get you unstuck from your stuck place. My name is Paulina, and I am co-hosting this amazing podcast with Dr. Lola Gershfeld. Anything else you want to say before we close today's podcast?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Well, this was so fun. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening. And you guys are so important to us. We want to um, you know, experience this and be on this journey together with you.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Yes. Thank you guys for so much for listening. You can go to emcleaders.com for more information on our training to get all the materials you need to create a thriving workplace environment. And we will see you next week. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Thank you everyone for listening. It's a joy to share these podcasts with you. Be sure to check out our previous podcasts and subscribe to join us at our next podcast of The Leader in You, brought to you by EMC Leaders, taking care of the teams you care about. Until then, be well and be focused on your relationships. We'll see you soon.