Episode 86 Rocky Pontikes, Mesirow Financial

Rocky is Senior Manager Director and Co-Head of Investment Banking at Mesirow, the Chicago-based employee-owned, diversified financial services firm.  A Chicagoland native who survived Eastern stops for college at Penn and a first job at Merrill Lynch, Rocky has been at Mesirow since 2001. He has charted and contributed to the firm’s emergence as a significant force in middle market M&A.  On the personal side, Rocky talks about his youthful athletic prowess, something he shares with one or none of the MMM hosts, depending on who you ask.  Interesting discussion about the near extinction of publicly traded middle market companies outside of growth sectors like health care and tech.  Also of note – the correct plural form of Pontikes, which is apparently “Pontiki.” 

Transcript

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Andy, It's Charlie. Charlie Gifford of Middle Market Musings. The CEO of Middle Market Musings. How are you? You're really sticking with the CEO thing? Yeah, yeah. How am I? I am great, Charlie. That's great. I see you're still going with the, the facial hair, the that thing. Is that called the goatee? It's. I, I have bad news for you. It is getting momentum. I hear the word distinguished a lot. I hear the word screaming in bold letters. Midlife crisis. So anyway, so we just had the pleasure of talking to Rocky Pontikis, friend of yours. He and I knew of one another, had not spent time together. I thought a first class guest as all my suggested guests tend to be. Rocky did not disappoint. You know, I enjoy all the conversations with him and Rock. He's a very senior, well known investment banker in Chicago. But he's very thoughtful. It's easy to have fun with him and lots of common things to talk about. But he's a thoughtful guy and I'm glad that you thought so as well. I liked a number of things about the discussion, but one thing that came through that I think our listeners will relate to is that he's kind of the equivalent of a five tool player in baseball. Toward the end we, we talk about how investment banking, private equity, you know, you need to be good at a lot of things. You need to be interested in business, you need to know how to sell, you need to be able to, to read the room. You need to be analytically good. And Rocky comes across as someone who is pretty evenly keeled across all of those disciplines and has carried that through his career. So it's kind of cool to feel him out on that. Yeah, well, it was a fun conversation and certainly hope our listeners enjoyed it as much as we, we did in talking to him. Before we start, although I apparently am not the CEO of Middle Market Musings, we would like to thank Bank Greenberg Variations Capital and New Heritage Capital along with our sponsor SRS acium. When it comes to maximizing the efficiency of an M and A deal, no one does it better than SRS Acium. Since 2007, SRS Acrim has brought unmatched expertise, insight and innovation to delivering superior escrow agent, paying agent and professional shareholder representation solutions. 88% of top global private equity firms and 84% of top global venture capital firms have worked with SRS Acium. To learn more about how SRS Aciem is the smartest way to run a deal, head to srsaquium.com that's S R S A C Q U I O M dot com. We hope you enjoy this episode. Rocky Ponticus. Let me make sure I get the long title correct. Senior managing director and co head of Investment banking at Mesero Financial. Welcome to Middle Market Musings. Thank you, Charlie and Andy. It's a pleasure to be here. Glad. Glad to have you here, Rocky. It's a very, very, very impressive title to go along with a very impressive young man. So welcome aboard, brother. How are you? Thank you. I am doing great. Thanks for having me on. I have been a fan through at least 80 episodes of this exciting podcast. So excited to be here. Wow. I know you say that to all of the podcast hosts that you spend time with, but that goes. Flattery goes a very long way along the hallowed microphone halls of Middle Market Museum. So thank you for saying that. A son of. What the hell do they call it? City of Big Shoulders? The Windy Cities. Windy City. That's right. Chicago. Guy grew up, grew up in the North Shore. Deerfield, Illinois, Right? That's right. Yeah. Born and raised in Deerfield. What was young Rocky Ponticus into and what trouble did you get into as a, as a young man? Yeah, I, interestingly enough, was actually born in the city to a Chicago policeman. So my dad was a Chicago policeman for a number of years, and once he had a child in 1973, I think he continued to be a Chicago policeman for about 18 to 24 months. We moved up to Deerfield. He kind of went out of law enforcement and got into, joined his brother in the business world. And I was raised in, you know, the, the, the mean streets of Deerfield, Illinois. I've had the pleasure of seeing you murder the golf ball off the tee in a way that I only could hope and pray I ever could, which I won't. But you also. Sports were a big, big deal for you as, as a, as a youngster, right? Well, yes, I played a bunch of sports. That was what I was passionate about as a child into my high school years for sure. So much so that I refused to. My friends will attest to this, even have, you know, a drink through high school, which is pretty rare these days. I always said that I would be very happy and vibing once I got to college. But, yeah, I played, played a bunch of sports growing up. I was a baseball player and a basketball player and a football player. And that's in addition to, you know, some other hobbies. That's, that's where I spent a lot of My time for sure. Best. Best sport was football. Best part was probably baseball. I was a catcher. Had the opportunity to play. Play, yeah. Catcher. In college, I knock on wood, you know, still have two knees that. That generally work. Ended up parlaying what was a pretty good high school football team in couple of seasons into playing for just under two years in college with the, you know, never really the intention of, you know, making it much farther than that, but enjoyed. Enjoyed college athletics for a short period of time. Just when you said that you caught. I just had this like shooting pain down my lower back and my knees. Catcher is a really, really difficult position to play. I mean, I can barely bend over and crouch down. I can't imagine doing that for nine innings. 162 games a year. But I digress. No, I totally agree. I think, I would argue it's the leader of the baseball field. And in addition to seeing the whole field as a young child, you also learn as a future father not how not to act behind the cage because the catcher hears everything that is said from every parent in between every pitch about every child on that field. So yes, I've. It's molded me into being a better. My friends would probably disagree, but a better sports fan. As a father of four boys, I didn't see. We have nothing else to talk about. So talk about this. It's also, it's also unique in the. In sports, in the relationship between the player and an official. Right. You've got that whole interaction with the home plate umpire. Yeah. Oftentimes, I mean, honestly, if I had a microphone, half of the umps when I was a kid, I knew they were doing it for money. They were a couple of years older than me. You know, in some cases, we ended up playing, you know, baseball with each other. And especially when we were home, it was a great opportunity to make fun of, you know, the other batters and, you know, talk a little smack and, you know, say, watch this pitch and what have you. Yes, 100%. That was all part of the excitement of being a catcher. Yeah. So, Rock, how did, how did you get to Upenn? Did. Do you have a lot of family that went to school on the east coast? Or when you told your parents you're going to Pennsylvania, they're like, why are you going out East? Why did you go to a good state school here? So pretty good story, I think. When I was in high school, one of my mentors was a guidance counselor named Dr. Mike Kohler. He also was one of our assistant football coaches. And while I was pretty focused on trying to play college baseball, he encouraged me with a highlight film to send that out to the east coast to a number of Ivy schools. And, you know, he said, the worst case, you take a couple trips on them and you meet some interesting people and you see some cool campuses and what have you. So I did a little tour, visited five or six schools, the last of which was Penn, and had a good couple of days, met the coach. He said to me, how do I get you to come to play football, Penn? And I said, well, I'm in the liberal arts school, but I would love to be in Wharton. How does that sound? And he put his hand across the table and said, deal. And I walked or skipped to the nearest pay phone at the time and called my parents and said, I'm going to Penn. Which, you know, looking backwards, has obviously changed my life on a bunch of different levels, personally and professionally. And, you know, was a great decision despite a very, very mediocre college football career. I was just going to say I was on the Penn campus yesterday. You know, like. Like most campuses, it is transformed and become more modern and more commercial. But so what a great place to go to school. No, it was awesome. It was. It was a great four years. In addition to the campus, I thought Philly was a really cool college town to be around, you know, in addition to Penn having Drexel and, you know, Villanova and the Big Five there and what have you. Was. Was a blast. That, you know, locust walk was. Was, you know, is. And was, you know, a really cool walk every morning. We're urbane, we're nice, and we're not overly wedded to Dunkin Donuts. Yeah, but you throw batteries at Santa Claus. No, you boo Santa Claus and you throw batteries at opposing teams, players. Besides that. Besides that, they're really nice people. And he was, like, defending. You knew Rick Horrors as a Philly guy, but he was just like, that guy was a bad. Out of respect for colleagues, clients and friends who are Philadelphians and adamant Philadelphia sports fans, I think they are excellent people and excellent fans also. Andy, for the record, boo. That's boring. Rocky. That's boring. Come on. I had the pleasure of going to Eagles games and in Phillies games in their respective, I think, old stadiums, and just say, that's an experience in and of itself. Did you bring a switchblade or not? Yeah, seriously. Seriously. And, you know, back in the 90s, early 90s, walking the streets of West Philly wasn't the safest, you know, Type of. Type of walk, either, but it's got. Well, it is. It really is now. Right. Do you know Dave Jones in Chicago? I do know Dave Jones, yeah. Yeah. Years ago, a private equity guy in Chicago, I think is a friend of both of ours told me that a friend of his who was uninitiated was coming to an Eagles Bears game, and the guy was planning on wearing his Bears jersey on the plane and then showing up directly at the stadium. And our Chicago friend said, you don't want to do that. And the guy thought he was kidding. He said, I'm not kidding. You don't want to wear a visiting team jersey in Philadelphia. And sadly, that was true. It's. It's less true now than it was then, but it's still kind of true. Come on. What do you mean it's less true now? We all. You can't say those things because we have this thing called the Internet, and it just shows. My feed and social media is all about horrible Philadelphia sports fans doing terrible things to opposing players before games at tailgates. I don't know why. They just. My algorithm seems to really feed me a lot of those things. You also don't want to show up at a Chicago Hawks Red Wings game and be a Red Wings fan throwing an octopus or pie on the ice. Bad things happen when that happens. Yes, I saw the. The Blackhawks were here last week. They. I went to the game. They. They lost to the fires. It is I. The Flyers are perennially mediocre, but it was unusual to see a Blackhawks team that has been brought so low. All right. Graduate from Penn with a full head of hair, I would imagine. Is that. Would that be directionally accurate? I'm on record saying I had as good or potentially more impressive hair than Charlie Gifford at one point in my life. For sure. I just know. I feel like. I think I've known you for 25 years. I've never known you with hair. So I'd like some proof to that. I. I'll provide a photo. I love it. I love it. A Bufantis. Humongous is what I sported for a very long time. So. For sure. And the color of your tux at your senior prom with this big head of hair. What do we got? Light blue. Was there any brown or tan in it, maybe? It might have been white. It might have been white with tails. It might have been white with tails. With a. With a royal blue cummerbund and bow tie. It's very possible. Tight. So tight. I still, you know, I still, I still support that once in a while when I need to. You should wear it to Intergrowth next next time you go out. That'll be a good look. We'll have to see these photos too. I know. Maybe we could have that as our promo when we promote this podcast. But Rock. After you graduated from, from Penn, you went to New York City. I did, yeah. I, I, you know, coming out of Wharton, you know and even to this day respective of private equity and other other professions in, in the finance industry, you know, even back then everyone had dreams of being an investment banker. I took a little bit different route. I, I ended up working for two senior individuals who are in the asset management space. One guy was an ex Drexel money manager and, and he had joined a pretty established guy, you know, in Manhattan. And I was hired as kind of their sole analyst at the time. It was a great gig. I mean it's something that I look back on and really credit the decision to go out east for living in New York City for you know, maybe just under four years. 800 square foot apartment with my roommate from Penn and another guy, you know, one bathroom, one bedroom turned into a three bedroom, paying probably $3,500 a month was I guess how all young people live in Manhattan. But professionally I align myself with these two guys at the time. While it doesn't sound like a lot of money, in 2026 they were managing a billion 2 a billion 3 of assets under management focused on small cap value equities in the stock market. Kind of defined as a billion dollars of market cap and under very fundamental, focused, very diversified and you know, at a fund of that size, we were taking pretty good positions into these public companies that gave us great access to, you know, the CEOs and the CFOs of these public companies when they came through town. Really credit that job for really developing me to learn how to speak to adults. I mean the story I often tell is as a 22 year old I was asking questions of these very established CEOs of you know, doing a secondary offering, taking $100 million, you know, through, through an offering. And, and some of that was their secondary shares and, and I'd have to look them in the eye and say, why are you selling $50 million of stock? And they would look at me, you know, you dumb 22 year old. I've been working 20 years as a CEO. I deserve to make some money. I think the other thing that was super fun on that job is, you know, at the time with a billion dollars or more of Aum. And the way Wall street worked back then, there were institutional salesmen that covered us at every major investment bank. And their job was to get us to trade through their firm. So I literally spent every day and every night going to really nice lunches and really nice dinners, and the two older guys wanted to go home to their families. So from a fun perspective in Manhattan in my early 20s, that was great. And eventually I, you know, kind of turned to these guys and I said, do you really like, you know, steak dinners every night? And they said, no, do you want to go to a concert? So I, you know, we spent like two years going to concerts and sporting events and stuff like that instead of going to stuffy, you know, dinners in Manhattan restaurants. So from that perspective, it was great. You know, you always look back and you say, what were some of the foundational things you learned as a young person that, you know, you kind of carried through your career? I mean, at the time, we would, you know, throughout a day talk to five or six different companies that did totally different things. I mean, we owned a company that made point of sale printers called Zebra Technologies, which still exists today. We had, you know, heart valve companies out of Minneapolis, where we were the largest shareholder. We dealt with oil and gas, we dealt with consumer goods and, and that, you know, gave me a pretty good foundation, not only fundamentally from, you know, financial analysis perspective, but also just kind of a purview of, of how different companies work and how people think about, you know, quarterly earnings and the management of businesses. And, you know, some of these businesses were 50 million in market cap and some of them were a billion. And just the diversity of size and the different, you know, kind of twists and turns these companies make, it was just some of the best experience I could have ever thought I could get. So that, that, as you alluded, that led you into investment banking at Mesmere? Yeah, I mean, you know, everything happens for a reason, I guess. But, you know, I'm still really good friends with, you know, the Drexel guy that I worked with, and he's still, you know, running a much bigger wealth management business today. I, you know, I probably would have stuck with him and been in East Coaster and everything probably would have worked out just fine. But there was a life event. My mom gets sick. She's a two time breast cancer survivor. And I literally, upon that news, picked up, left town and quit that job and moved to Chicago and, you know, eventually found my way into an interview at Merrill lynch, kind of off cycle. So, you know, kind of eventually found investment banking, which, you know, with a lot of our peers is, is way different than the path that people took out of college. But you know, to your point that, that, that experience on Wall street, that experience on the buy side was totally invaluable. I ended up having a great almost three and a half, almost four years at Merrill lynch, kind of in their global investment banking group. I got put into a group that was very unique at the time. You know, again, kind of everything happens for a reason. Wall street was verticalizing at that point. So you were an M and A guy, you were a corporate finance guy, you were an equity linked security guy, you were a debt guy, you were a trader. And our group kind of cut across growth companies. And this was when the Internet was starting to happen. So starting in, you know, directionally, 98, I was hired as a third year analyst. I was, because I had, you know, three and a half, four years of experience doing other things. I was promoted to an associate. And, you know, we spent that period of time, you know, taking everything that had a heartbeat public, usually because there's an Internet component to it. So a lot of roadshows on IPOs and secondaries. You guys are old enough to remember the long term capital management currency debacle. So that changed the markets kind of in 1999. So all these deals that we were trying to take public suddenly became M and A deals or private capital deals. And our group was capable of doing that kind of inside the four walls of our group. So we started doing that and I learned how to talk to private equity guys and talk to private capital people. And then, you know, kind of the Internet bubble burst and suddenly it was, you know, find a solution that included everything from M and A to take privates to, you know, potential bankruptcies. I often joke that it was three and a half years of not sleeping well and not hardly sleeping at all. But it was, it was a really great time to be, you know, kind of cutting my teeth and learning investment banking. I had, you know, a couple great mentors, a couple challenging mentors for sure. Part of the way that I lead today is I've never been a big believer of glass ceilings based on title. And you know, Merrill at the time was, hey, you're only an associate, so you can do this or you're only an analyst or you're only a vp. I think one of the, you know, kind of core competencies of the leadership of the group that I work for is, you know, they let Me have a lot of client air time. You know, I traveled on probably private jets, on IPOs and secondary offerings directly with management teams without any senior chaperones. And you know, our job was to kind of, you know, get deals done and take care of clients. Yeah, I look back on that experience as just being incredibly positive. Rock, what was behind the idea to move from Merrill to, to, to Mesero? Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of pre. So this would have been 2001, pre 9 11, but definitely post Internet bubble, the group that I was working for started to disband and, and quite honestly Meryl started having, having some layoffs. I was ultimately terminated. Full disclosure. But it wasn't before. I had met through a headhunter that had relentlessly called me for who knows what reason. I had met some folks at, at Mesero, in fact, one person at Mesero and you know, before I really knew that I was leaving Merrill, I, I had verbally joined Mesero, had some options to potentially stay within Maryland in different cities and kind of had been pursuing that. And that's, that's what I was going to do ultimately. But I, I met a guy named Jeff Goldman who, Charlie certainly, you know, maybe Andy, you know, who's still one of my partners today. And Jeff, you know, had spent the 80s and the 90s at Salomon Brothers and Lazard Frere respectively as a senior banker. And he had joined mesero in February of 01 to kind of reorganize the investment banking efforts of Mesero. And I met with Jeff and Jeff at the time kind of said, besides his bio, I have a vision to bring people who have big bank experiences and have advised on kind of larger M and A situations down to the middle market to call on entrepreneur entrepreneurs. And at the time, you know, private equity was, you know, just getting started versus what it is today. And we're going to bring that experience down to the middle market and create a preeminent middle market boutique. Mezro even then was not just investment banking, it was larger financial services company. Yes. For people who are familiar with you and Mesero investment banking. Tell us about the larger company and then give us a snapshot of what Mesero was. 2001. 2002. Yeah, sure. Well, let me start with maybe the today facts. Mesero is a 88 year old diversified financial services firm. It's always been based in river north in Chicago. It currently has around 550 or 600 employees. The firm interestingly is owned by its employees and always has been. How many people were in investment banking at Mesero when you arrived? How many people today? There were probably a dozen or so when I met Jeff, there's a funny fact here, I said, hey, can I meet some, some other folks? And he said, no. And I said, why? And he said, because I'm going to fire most of them. And he did, you know, he was brought in to kind of maybe make it a little bit more Wall street esque, you know, to two of the incumbents stayed. One who's a still a partner of mine, one who is a packaging guy who unfortunately passed away a few years ago, named Bill Hornell, who is incredible, incredible banker, incredible person. But you know, that was, that was the redo. The firm itself was probably a couple hundred people at the time. You know, throughout the 25 years I've been here, it was probably as high as 1300 or 1400, folks. We had a really big insurance brokerage business at one point. We had a really, really successful and interesting hedge fund to fund business. And you know, we actually acquired KPMG's corporate US recovery group around 2006 or 2007, which served us well during, you know, kind of the 0809010 time frame. But you know, as we know, kind of the, you know, one of the more intense bull markets of our history started after that and that was eventually wound down. So, you know, it's kind of been all shapes and sizes over time, you know, now leading to a core diversified financial services business that's around 600 employees. You're listening to Middle market musings brought to you by New Heritage Capital and Greenberg Variations Capital. Rocky, you mentioned Jeff Goldman and I kind of have had the pleasure of meeting Jeff. I think of him as Mr. Mesereau. I know he's played an important role, maybe a mentor in your career. Tell us a little bit about Jeff. What makes him unique? What makes him effective? Yeah, well, you know, I, I've known and worked with Jeff for 25 years. You know, I make a joke that I carried his, his, his books in his bags for, you know, a decade being, you know, the guy that executed all of his transactions. Definitely, definitely a mentor, definitely, you know, one of the most successful, best well known bankers to come out of Chicago for sure over the last number of decades. You know, he came in with just an absolute ton of experience. You know, big deals that were done to Salomon Brothers and Lazard and you know, stories that, that, you know, started with. Yeah, we met on Friday and The deal was closed on Monday. The old style of doing deals. So I was always, you know, victim and also had the pleasure of, of hearing some of those stories because we all know that that's not how deals happen in today's market. But, you know, one of the, one of the great stories that he used to tell is, you know, we'd get sent in, you know, the bankers would get sent into a conference room on the buy side and the sell side to shake out a deal. And, you know, in five minutes we had the deal done. But we'd stay in there for, you know, three and a half hours and yell at each other. So they heard us yelling and pound the table. So they thought we were trying to really eke out a deal. And ultimately this was a relationship business in the 80s and 90s, just like it is today. I love asking people about mentors, but the real question is, what do you carry with you on a go forward basis that causes you to want to return, serve and be a mentor to some of the junior guys at Mesereau? I had the opportunity to, you know, before these video chats, to sit in front of a phone and, you know, hash out stuff with clients and buyers and, you know, kind of the stereotypical negotiation. And, you know, sometimes I'm a big believer of shut your mouth and open your ears. And if you have the right level of mentors, you know, the good ones and the bad ones, you. And, you know, you kind of inherit your own shtick. And then, you know, hopefully you have a mentor that allows you to, you know, find. Find your own shtick and, you know, the own. Your own way of talking to people, your own way of working out problems and finding solutions. And I think, you know, that plus just the constant level of integrity, you know, be honest, don't ever lie. A good Jedi mind trick once in a while is acceptable, but, you know, this is, this is a relationship business. And, you know, Jeff was, was, you know, I think he described himself as an old, you know, old school generalist. And, and a lot of that came from relationships that he had built over 20 and 30 years. I mean, to this day, he'll get situations brought to him from attorneys and accountants and other folks within kind of his centers of influence that know Jeff, trust Jeff, want Jeff involved. And I saw that as a young banker, and that motivated me to, you know, go to the ACG meetings and meet the Charlie Giffords of the world, shake hands, go to dinners, stay out late, do your thing, because at the end of the day, you Know, it's that level of trust that, that if you earn it and you keep that reputation, it accrues to the benefit of you personally, professionally, financially and all that stuff. To be a sell side banker with private companies in the middle market, you know, it always, it strikes me you need to, you need to be good at three things and most people don't start off good at all three. You need to be analytically good. You need to be interested in business and able to be discerning about business. And you need to have personal skills, be able to read the room and relate to people. And you and I have known one another but haven't spent time together. And it just strikes me that you come across as somebody who is probably pretty evenly keeled between those three, even when you were 25 years old. So the first question is, is that a fair read of you or do you think that you were stronger in some areas and needed to develop in others? Good question. To your point, I often when young people say I want to be an investment banker, I always ask why, because I'm curious if their answer is the same as mine. But I do think that if you're a, you know, good banker, that, that has longevity. You know, put aside the leadership side just to, you know, someone who can, you know, earn the trust of clients and earn the reputation with buyers and, and you know, ultimately have successful outcomes, hopefully for, for both sides. You need to be, you know, really good at finance and accounting. You need to be able to market and put the right positioning on different stories and you need to be able to communicate it. And the one thing you left out is you actually need to be a pretty good psychologist. You know, I say that you had to be able to read the room. Yeah. Read the room a little bit. Right? Yeah. So, you know, and I don't know, I mean, I think my parents would tell you that I was always pretty confident talking to people growing up. I mean, I wasn't a huge BS or necessarily, but you know, I think, you know, gaining the confidence at a young age to not be afraid to speak up and not be afraid to ask a dumb question definitely has helped me over time. I mean, to this day I'm surrounded by a lot of smart people at Mesero, probably a lot smarter than I am. What I took away from, you know, some of my mentors is, is don't just be a talker, make sure you listen once in a while. And I think you're, I think your description of me is pretty spot on. Of those Various disciplines, you know, in dealing with younger people today and you, you deal with more young bankers than I do. Of those skills, which is the hardest to come by, I mean, is it you're working with somebody who's kind of at the associate level and you know, they have the skills and they look like they're going to advance. What, what is typically the area that needs the most diverse development? That's a, that's also a really good question, I think for long. I mean I, you know, I've interviewed tons of tons, tons of young professionals, you know, aspiring bankers and you know, help people get jobs and, and you know, always try and believe in karma when, you know, even, you know, established people are looking for jobs. You try and use your network and make the proper introduction because at the end of the day, you know, bankers are also matchmakers. So you know, I kind of believe in, in the karma side of that. But the, you know, I will tell you that the number one thing that I notice in talking to young professionals is whether or not they have the ability to confidently speak. And you know, there is a, you know, every business is hard, but on the investment banking side, in order to really succeed you need to have a lot of the skills that you just talked about, Andy. And you know, maybe the most important one is the connection with people and the relationship side of things. And you know, it's, I'll make a very broad analogy but you know, you give me someone who's incredibly book smart and has done three or four internships and has been completely focused on getting into the financial services world versus, you know, a guy who got a woman who, who got, you know, really good grades at a pretty decent school but was a caddy for four years and you know, had to carry a bag in 100 degree weather and talk to adults and be quiet and then, you know, talk a little bit and then be quiet. You know, I, I've come to notice that, you know, a long term banker will absolutely need to have the skill of talking to people. There's no doubt about that. And I think if I was going to rank those qualities, you know, I think I would take that first. You still have to be smart, you still have to be analytical, you still have to have the attention to detail. But the long totem pole rise from analyst to MD in this, in this business has everything to do with your ability to communicate. I completely agree with everything you just said. We've talked on these airwaves before about the lack of how the ability to write and communicate with a written word seems to be a skill set that is not as drilled into people these days as much as it was when we were younger. But on the communication piece, I mean, advocating. A lot of younger folks today are not afraid to advocate for themselves. But I just think that the ability to connect to, and I tell this to my own kids who are 26, 24, 22, you would think they'd be really good networkers. They're not great networkers. And I think a lot of it has to do with parenting. Like, I feel like as a parent these days, we try to, we try to like, smooth out all the wrinkles in their lives and make things equal, easier for them as opposed to having them kind of fend for themselves a bit. And that's the one thing that I try to encourage them to do. It's always shocking when Charlie and I agree. I mean, it's boring. But I mean, the extension that I would put on it isn't just networking, but learning how to sell. Not just communicating, but understanding the little and the big things that go into selling, advancing on that long march rocky that you talk about from being associate to VP to being a producer to being a managing director, being able to ask for the order, close the deal, be sitting in a presentation and, and, and get the fact that I came in and was told that this was the decision maker, but I think it's this guy and he's not happy. We're missing his point. You know, I need to come to a stop and pivot and figure out what scratches his, his itch. And for whatever reason, I do think that that is the, that's the, the, the hardest thing to identify and develop in younger financial professionals right now. Yeah, I mean, I'm a real big, I mean, my, my partners know this. I mean, I'm a very big believer in collaboration also. Right. And, you know, whether it's a healthcare guy who has, you know, one of our healthcare bankers who has a relationship with, you know, a money manager who then has a, a food situation that they're aware of and they want to introduce us in and, you know, that, that healthcare banker making that introduction to our food banker and not trying to do a food deal or, you know, just an environment where, you know, know, people are in the office and we're putting our heads together and trying to figure out a problem and how to, you know, how to solve a problem. I mean, I'm just a big believer in that. And you know, when you talk to young people, you know, I was one I was one of these guys once, right, with you know, fire coming on my ears and you know, being trained at Merrill and getting yelled at all the time and you know, it's obviously evolved into, you know, kind of a different office environment than when I was trained, but just that, that ability to, you know, speak your mind and have some conviction around what you say and not be afraid to speak and creating an environment where, you know, people's ideas are heard or something that, you know, I was lucky enough to have when, when I was a junior guy and something that I encourage within the four walls of Mesro. So Rock, we've talked a bit about Mesro. Maybe you can just give us and our listeners an overview of kind of, you know, your power alleys, industries of focus where you guys think you punch above your weight. Yeah. So Adam Oakley is the other co head of banking. He and I took over leadership about two years ago. Part of that mandate was really the idea to grow our group and extend our reach and our focus sitting here Today, we're about 50 bankers, plus or minus 20 senior bankers, 30 junior bankers, obviously middle market focused. We define that 5 million of EBITDA to 50 million of EBITDA. We, we are mostly sell side, you know, probably 90% sell side focused. We do divestiture work, we do boarded board of director advisory work, buy sides, capital raising. But we wake up every day thinking about sell side M and A. We're kind of split and go to market vertically across industry groups. A little different than some of our peers. We have 10 of those. I describe them as five under the industrial umbrella, five outside of the industrial umbrella. You know, we're building something here. I'm super excited about it. That's, that's the mesero banking story. Love it, love it. Rock, before we let you go, happily married with four young male Ponticuses running around. Is that right? Yeah, relatively young. Yeah. I've got a, a guy graduating Michigan State University. I've got a sophomore Mizzou. I have a senior in high school who just committed to Mizzou to be with his best friend and brother. And then I have a freshman in high school. My wife Jen's from New Jersey. We imported or exported her to Chicago 25 years ago, depending on who you ask. And yeah, it's been a pretty fun journey. She must be quite patient. I've never had the benefit of meeting your sons, but to being a mom to four young rocky Ponticuses must have been, she must have had her hands full. Yeah, the Pontiki are loud and robust. We are now at a stage of our lives where instead of throwing footballs in the pools, you know, Jen and I come home from a pool and we find, you know, half a dozen to two dozen, you know, empty beer bottles on the table. So it's been a fun journey, for sure. We also parenthetically have two male dogs with the idea that, you know, my, my wife is, is the only female in this, in the family, so that's pretty funny. Well, I know her pain. I have. I'm married and I have three daughters, and so I'm outnumbered. You've had some challenges to deal with the past few years, too. Yeah, I mean, just like, just like deals having twists and turns and speed bumps. So does life. But, you know, my wife Jen was diagnosed with Parkinson's three years ago. It was a shock. We, you know, we, we kept it pretty private for two years, but I'd say over the last 12 months or so, between her getting a job in a similar industry for, for a nutritional bar that focuses on Parkinson's patients, I'll give a plug. It's called Neurofiber. And her being Parkinson's, you know, patient, you know, working for a company that, you know, among other things, has focused some trials in and around the Parkinson's world. Upon hearing that, which happened very, very quickly, from, you know, noticing some signs to getting diagnosed, I joined the Midwest board for the Parkinson's foundation, which is, you know, really, really interesting organization. And, you know, besides the pain and the drama of, you know, talking about PD and I think it's the fastest growing neurological disease in America, might be the fastest growing disease in America. We, you know, we've set our sights on, on, you know, helping the care of patients and raising money for a cure. This is the month of April, and it's Parkinson's Awareness Month. The. There was a. An event that a couple colleagues and I did between Thanksgiving and Christmas this past year where we challenged ourselves to row 100,000 meters in 30 days between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And Jen and I have parlayed that into what we call the Million Meter Challenge. We went to friends mostly in Chicago and New Jersey, and encouraged people to put a team of 10 together with the idea of rowing, walking, power walking, biking, swimming, or rowing the equivalent of 100,000 meters times 10. A million meter challenge. So we just kicked that off, which is pretty cool. We have an old school banker spreadsheet that kind of tracks your daily meter usage and counts it against your 100,000 goal. And we haven't even started, but happy to report that we're over $50,000 of donations so far, so pretty special. Very cool. Rock. For those that may want to learn more about it, is there a website? There is a website. There's an Instagram page called Million Meter Challenge. My goal is to make this a national event. So for sure, look me up if you're interested in doing this next April. And then as it relates to the Parkinson's foundation, you can. It's. I think it's Parkinson's foundation.org if you search for the Million Meter Challenge and you make a donation there, that's great. If you just make a donation to the Parkinson's Foundation, I will guarantee you it goes to good use. That's great. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's very, very cool. Rocky, you. We've taken up a lot of your time here, but before we let you go, we share a love of the NFL. You are. You're fond of the. The Chicago Bears. And so I have a trivia question for both of you. And I may have already mentioned this to my friend Rocky, and if you know the answer, you need to play along. But. And don't answer. And I'm going to ask Andy to answer it. And the question is, name all of the Chicago Bears quarterbacks that have thrown for 4,000 yards in a season in the storied history of their franchise. Rocky, do you know the answer? I know the answer. I know the exact answer. Okay. Andy, do you know how many? Can you name? How name. Maybe not even names, but if. Can you name how many have thrown for 4,000 yards? Not Jim McMahon, no Chicago Bears quarterback. I'm going to defer to Rocky on this. The answer, Rocky Ponticus is the one and only and the future of our franchise. Caleb Williams, well, he hasn't yet. He didn't throw 3942, to be exact, last year. It is amazing that. That in the history of the Chicago Bears, there's not been one quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards. And you led the jury here. I was going to say, is Caleb Williams the best quarterback in the history of the Chicago Bears? I will go on record saying I was not a fan until I was a fan. Yeah, but the guy's a winner. I think he is only going to get better. I think his partnership with Ben Johnson is a lot of fun to watch and we have a great offensive line. I think it's going to get better, and I am looking forward to consistently beating the New England Patriots on a go. I thought you were going to say the Green Bay Packers. I don't know if you know this rock, but the Patriots travel to Soldier Field next year. So let's get together and have an evening, pal. I think I'm still waiting to collect on a couple of bets, but that's another story for another day. I might owe you a dinner or two. That's true. We'll I'll pay up one of these days. He's a gentleman and a scholar, and we're grateful for the time he spent with us today. Thank you, my friend. It's been a pleasure. Great to see you guys. Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Middle Market Musings. We'd like to extend our sincere thanks to Rocky Pontikis for joining us today, as well as to our sponsor, sr. Thanks as well to our editor, Jason Zapolo. If you enjoyed today's podcast, we'd encourage you to like and follow Middle Market Musings on Spotify, Apple, or whichever provider you use to access podcasts. And of course, feel free to share with your friends. Thanks again and we look forward to catching you on the next one. Pay me my money down. Pay me or go to jail. Pay me my money down.