Episode 91: The No Guest Episode // Five Years of Reflection, One Episode of Musings

For our Season Five finale, we turn the microphones on ourselves. With no guest to keep us in line, Denver-based marketing guru Kim Kelty steps in as moderator, referee, and occasional peacekeeper.

We reflect on nearly 90 episodes, the lessons we've learned from exceptional founders and investors, and where we think private equity and the M&A market are headed. We also discuss the two forces reshaping the industry: technology and a more demanding investment landscape.

If you're expecting a sentimental moment between the hosts, you'll have to keep waiting. Instead, expect spirited banter, an unnecessary debate over music, and the familiar competitive dynamic that has somehow kept both our relationship and the podcast alive and humming over the past five years.

Transcript

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[00:00:00.240] - Speaker 1

So Andy, we're not having a guest today, which is, it's just the two of us here making fun of you and laughing at you, not with you.

[00:00:10.000] - Speaker 2

Oh wait, is this your opening?

[00:00:12.240] - Speaker 1

Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, it's the opening. Oh, here we are. We were supposed to start a half an hour ago, but given your technical difficulties, this has been a half an hour.

[00:00:22.080] - Speaker 2

I don't wanna start by talking. I don't wanna start by talking about my technical difficulties.

[00:00:26.830] - Speaker 1

Well, there's some which would take up a lot of airtime. Anyway, um, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Middle Market Musings. Um, we're doing this naked, figuratively, not literally, um, in that we don't have a third person joining us, but we do have—

[00:00:43.710] - Speaker 2

we do have a third—

[00:00:45.390] - Speaker 1

just stop interrupting me. We have our lovely Kim Kelty joining us for a special edition of Middle Market Musings.

[00:00:53.520] - Speaker 2

Kim Kelty, media consultant, Pennsylvania native. You made your way to Denver, based there. Some months ago, you took on the assignment of helping us improve the offering and the profile of Middle Market Musings.

[00:01:12.240] - Speaker 3

This is true. And, and I'm—

[00:01:14.000] - Speaker 2

How do you like it so far?

[00:01:15.600] - Speaker 1

We, we all have our cross to bear. Yeah. So, uh, how's that going for you?

[00:01:19.680] - Speaker 3

I was gonna say, I am quickly regretting this as an idea as well, but we're gonna have a blast. We're going to have a blast. Yeah.

[00:01:26.700] - Speaker 2

So the idea is that we would do away with the industry thought leader guest who is a staple of the podcast, and that Kim, you would moderate/referee a discussion between Charlie and me.

[00:01:47.580] - Speaker 3

It's definitely more referee. I'm thinking WWE. Kind of vibe. But yeah, we're going to have fun.

[00:01:54.270] - Speaker 1

Just to be clear, I think that if we got into an octagon, no chance Greenberg would have it. Have a, uh, have a chance.

[00:02:03.150] - Speaker 2

What would make this a win for you? What, what, what do you feel like you could get across through a conversation with the two of us?

[00:02:12.910] - Speaker 3

I shared with both of you, I love hearing from your guests and I think people want to hear maybe a little bit more from you and maybe see another side and also be able to see, you know, why you guys start the podcast, maybe a little bit more of your banter. So that would be a massive hit.

[00:02:32.420] - Speaker 2

What is your observation about how Charlie and I interact on the podcast versus IRL, as the kids say?

[00:02:42.980] - Speaker 3

In real life, I definitely think you guys banter more. I am constantly belly laughing, which coming from the East Coast, I miss living in Denver. So you guys have that going for you. And yeah, I've never met two people that have opposite opinions and just seem to work.

[00:03:02.610] - Speaker 1

Does it really seem to work? Because oftentimes I'm still on episode 90 wondering if it works. We're going to really reach our stride in our 6th year of doing this. That's what I keep telling myself.

[00:03:14.380] - Speaker 3

Yeah.

[00:03:14.940] - Speaker 2

Well, I actually feel, Charlie, like there's a long stretch. Today would be a departure where a podcast is like any other enterprise. It's work. We've worked at it and doing that collaboratively, at least for me, has made it challenging at times to remember that like, oh yeah, we're, you know, we're supposed to have this, you know, sparky, competitive competitive interaction with one another.

[00:03:42.430] - Speaker 1

Why, why do you think it should be? Wait, what makes you think this should be competitive?

[00:03:49.710] - Speaker 2

Wait, wait, what makes you think it's competitive inquires the man who counts how many times a guest says great question.

[00:03:59.950] - Speaker 1

Well, it's just, that's a fair point. That's, that's true. I do have a tally on my wall and I think I've got 3x the number of good questions that you do.

[00:04:11.720] - Speaker 3

You guys do complement each other and I help out with clipping out what goes on LinkedIn and I try to get the ones where you say, you know what, Charlie, that was a really good question. And I want to put that in there.

[00:04:26.920] - Speaker 1

I feel like, oh my God, is that Haley's Comet flying across the sky? Give her that's a good question. Good question. All right, so Kim, you did put together a thought piece and a bunch of questions that we were going to walk through today. In keeping with my general preparation, I haven't looked at it at all. Perfect.

[00:04:49.160] - Speaker 3

It's exactly what I was hoping for.

[00:04:51.640] - Speaker 1

I think that, I think we should just let it roll.

[00:04:56.040] - Speaker 3

Agreed.

[00:04:58.440] - Speaker 2

Kim, what, What do you think is a Charlie type of question or Charlie tendency versus an Andy?

[00:05:09.030] - Speaker 3

Oh, good question. Simply put, I think Charlie will ask a question that's more scenario-based, and then Andy, you'll ask a question that both are knowledge-based, don't get me wrong, but you'll kind of walk through maybe more of the backstory of the knowledge. I've noticed that right off the bat.

[00:05:30.550] - Speaker 1

I feel like when I listen to the podcast and like when we go through it before we publish, I listen to it at 1.25 times. And the other day I was listening to one and Andy was asking a question. I'm like, damn it. I thought I was listening to it at 1.25 speed and it was at 1.25 speed, but You talk so slowly. And sometimes I'm like, holy crap, I'm gonna have to listen to it at 1.75.

[00:06:05.760] - Speaker 2

You make it sound like I— you make it sound like I got hit on the head with a cinder block.

[00:06:09.760] - Speaker 1

Well, sometimes I feel like I'm doing this with Eeyore.

[00:06:16.160] - Speaker 3

That's my dog's nickname, so I can relate.

[00:06:19.360] - Speaker 2

I will say, I, I think God, it's— I'm really reluctant to get anywhere near saying anything positive about Charlie after that. But I think it is not an accident that Charlie goes first and opens in three-quarters of the podcast, and then I, I come in. I think that that plays to each of our strengths. I am often I guess I'll say impressed by Charlie, you know, by your ability to just get right there, you know, to open the podcast, situate the guest, establish the right energy level and get into it. And, you know, I'll ignore the whole thing about listening speed and all of that. I, it suits me to just listen. For the first few minutes. And, you know, we've done some prep and thought about it a little bit, but I like having the time to figure out where I want to drill in. And I would say that I think that then that's where I make a signature contribution by saying, okay, here's this thing that we can talk about with this person, which is different from the 80 other Conversations that we've had.

[00:07:42.300] - Speaker 3

Andy, you want to know what I also think you win at? The screen grabs. When I try to get a photo of a guest and Andy and Charlie, Charlie looks like he, he's on another planet when I try to get a screen grab.

[00:07:58.620] - Speaker 1

Because I'm not really, if Andy's talking, I'm not usually listening.

[00:08:01.660] - Speaker 2

Well, do you find that it's a problem in the, in the, in the videos? I think this may be part of what you're alluding to, that Charlie, as he is right now, is often watching the World Cup.

[00:08:12.320] - Speaker 3

And you are always posed so beautifully, like you're smiling, you're laughing. I don't have to search for it.

[00:08:19.360] - Speaker 2

I made this joke a week or so ago that Charlie's view of the podcast often is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My turn to speak.

[00:08:29.200] - Speaker 1

I'm sorry, were you saying something?

[00:08:33.760] - Speaker 3

How did you guys start the podcast? Maybe start there. Maybe not when early years of how you guys were born and how you got to what you do. Sure.

[00:08:40.410] - Speaker 1

Well, as the founder of Middle Market Musings, I'll take that one. Um, the— it was an idea born out of, I'd say, just general marketing brilliance. Um, it was a long time ago and there weren't a lot of podcasts out there, but I was like, uh, we do like to— we're not a true— at New Heritage Capital, we're not afraid to try different things. And I was like, you know, it'd be kind of fun to have a podcast. And I was like, And then I was like, ugh, there's a lot of technical crap associated with it and how I'm gonna figure it out. And I saw Andy probably once a year or so. We always had this standing breakfast at an industry conference and I told him, and you know, 2 years after the fact, he goes, hey, how's that podcast thing coming? I don't even think it was called a podcast back then. Maybe it was like a video blog. And I said, yeah, I haven't gotten around to it. He goes, we should do it together. And I almost spit up my scrambled eggs. And so after him begging and pleading and getting on bended knee, I finally acquiesced and thought it would be more fun and more dynamic to have it be, you know, 2, 3 people in the room talking instead of 2.

[00:09:51.560] - Speaker 1

We all have our mistakes in life that we make, and that was one of mine, but I'm trying to make the best of it.

[00:09:57.240] - Speaker 2

And, um, can I, uh, my My version on that is— It's not a version.

[00:10:05.750] - Speaker 1

To suggest it's a version suggests that it's not accurate.

[00:10:10.630] - Speaker 2

I did not lead by saying, oh, maybe I could do it with you. I remember leading by saying, you would have more fun if you did it with someone else. And then it may have been that in a follow-up to that, I said, you know, I would do it with you. But it was really based on this idea that beyond it being enjoyable, thinking of, you know, we were talking before, Howard Stern and Robin, uh, Conan O'Brien and Andy Richter. The image in my mind at the time, Kim, I don't know if we've ever talked about this, was the Bronx Beat sketches on SNL with Maya Rudolph and Amy Poehler, women with thick accents hosting this show on community access TV. And you get the impression that they have guests who come through, but they always would really rather just be giving one another grief and, you know, talking about, you know, their husbands and stuff like that. And I, I, I felt like our relationship lent itself to that. I thought that our relationship with, you know, was quarrelsome, rambunctious. On some meta level, we were friends. It seemed to me that it was an interesting enough relationship that it could be the clothesline that you could hang these, these other appearances on.

[00:11:41.270] - Speaker 1

Yeah. You said friends twice and relationship once. I feel uncomfortable. I'd like to go talk to HR.

[00:11:47.670] - Speaker 3

I was just going to say this. You want to stay safe?

[00:11:50.680] - Speaker 1

Is there an HR person on the phone that I can speak with?

[00:11:54.600] - Speaker 3

It's not a safe space anymore.

[00:11:56.440] - Speaker 2

Whether she likes it or not, Kiv is our HR person now.

[00:11:59.720] - Speaker 1

Back in the Iron Age when we were starting this is that we were struggling with coming up with a name of our little venture. And Andy really, really wanted to call it Middle Market Mixtape, which speaks to a really great demographic of people born between 1965 and 1975, which is a much— it's a very, very big big universe of people out there, huge TAM. Anyway, and then we, after me making fun of him and telling him it was a terrible idea, he acquiesced. He's like, oh fine, we'll call it Middle Market Musings. And he still can't pronounce M-U-S-I-N-G-S without sounding like some type of person afflicted with some type of issue. And I don't understand why you can't say musings. And it's musings. It's like, what? Who says musings? Musings.

[00:12:53.450] - Speaker 2

Don't you think our demographic, like the overwhelming majority of people who listen to our podcast, had throwaway cameras on every table at their weddings? I mean, isn't that our kind of our age sweet spot?

[00:13:07.930] - Speaker 3

It doesn't have the same ring to it. How did you land on musings?

[00:13:11.770] - Speaker 1

Uh, because I finally was like, dude, We're not calling it Middle Market Mixtapes. That's a terrible idea.

[00:13:17.880] - Speaker 2

Many people were polled and in an act of betrayal, my dear friend Michelle Masucci, lawyer in New York, who is one of our first guests, uh, was, I consulted with her and she, she chose Middle Market Musings.

[00:13:40.030] - Speaker 1

The funny thing is you chose her thinking that she'd be an empathetic, sympathetic ear, and she was like, mixtape is a terrible name. Which was good.

[00:13:48.750] - Speaker 2

Have you listened to—

[00:13:53.230] - Speaker 1

The new Seals and Croft album? No, I haven't.

[00:13:57.230] - Speaker 2

Have you had any reason to listen to any of the early podcast episodes? And I ask this because my sister's gonna answer that.

[00:14:06.770] - Speaker 1

Oh, wow.

[00:14:08.450] - Speaker 2

Have you listened to any of the 90? No, but I—

[00:14:13.650] - Speaker 3

It's actually really marketing if he doesn't. It is. I know a lot of people that don't listen to it.

[00:14:18.130] - Speaker 2

My suspicion is, Charlie, that we would be blown away by how amateurish we were if we went back and listened to one of the first 20.

[00:14:30.290] - Speaker 1

It'd be weird.

[00:14:31.570] - Speaker 3

If you weren't, it'd be weird.

[00:14:33.620] - Speaker 1

The thought bubble over my head is, don't we sound amateurish now?

[00:14:39.220] - Speaker 2

You don't think we've got, you don't think we've gotten better at it?

[00:14:42.420] - Speaker 1

No, I think we've gotten better about it. No, I do. I do. I do. Instead of like doing no desktop research, I now do desktop research during the conversation.

[00:14:51.460] - Speaker 3

That is definitely noticed. Yes.

[00:14:55.220] - Speaker 2

He's checking the guest LinkedIn profile at 1:58 rather than 2:03.

[00:15:01.190] - Speaker 1

Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:02.470] - Speaker 3

From episode 1 to episode 90, what is one thing that's completely different for both of you? I think you already answered yours, Charlie.

[00:15:11.910] - Speaker 2

I would say it, you know, we tell all the guests that it's a story in 3 acts, their origin story, you know, the meat of their career, you know, where they've made their contribution, then big picture stuff. And I think, uh, over time. We've gotten better at focusing, narrowing, or even eliminating the first part and realizing that everybody's upbringing is unique to them, is interesting in some way. But if it's not going to pay off, we just find a way of, of getting to the topics that will distinguish the discussion.

[00:15:54.930] - Speaker 1

I have a question for you. What do you think makes for a great episode?

[00:16:00.370] - Speaker 2

The two strands, you know, there are people who are strong on one and then good on the other, but having someone who has real professional accomplishment and is good at talking about that, but also has a real-life perspective apart from that that they like to share. When we get somebody who has both of those, it gives us a lot to work with.

[00:16:31.260] - Speaker 1

I think the best ones are the easy ones. And what I mean by easy is, is that when it's conversational, there's lots of back and forth. And it also, I think it does require people to be, and this might come across not the way I intend it, is that people need to be not afraid to talk about themselves. And I think a lot of people are struggle with talking about themselves because they're worried about how that might be coming across as being a self-promoter. But I think it is the willingness to put yourself out there. I mean, one that comes to mind, John Ferrara, who is the CEO of Capstone, was on like 2 months ago and he was saying that since the podcast was published, he got lots of feedback from people saying, my God, John, I've known you for 25, 30 years. I didn't know half of the things that you shared on that podcast. And so people's willingness to be vulnerable, to engage and to share their story are oftentimes the best ones, the best guests.

[00:17:23.790] - Speaker 3

I love that you brought John up because I actually thought the origin story, because I knew Andy had mentioned on that piece, was what pulled me in. Because when I look at an episode, I go more overarching in the sense of, okay, what's in it for the person to listen to? And I think definitely accomplishments and what they do in their industry, but also what's that origin of why they are motivated and operate the way they do and are successful the way they do.

[00:17:55.220] - Speaker 2

I think about every episode having two swing thoughts, right? You can't have five thoughts in your head. One is that as part of the prep, Charlie and I always make the point that we're all here for work. And even if we're goofing around, we're doing it to enhance our professional image. And we want the— we're there for the guests to do that also. So, you know, most of our guests are at a level where they don't need to be coached in this, but I think it helps to remind them, think about the impression that you want listeners to take away about you and your firm, and let's make sure that, that we get there. And then the other swing thought is that, you know, on some level, all of our guests have kind of similar backgrounds. They were born, they grew up, they did well in school, they got a job, they got another job. But what can we find to talk about that will be different not only from other episodes of the podcast, but different from the 5 other interviews that John Ferrara has given this year? And I do think that is a measure of our having gotten better at this, that even where one or both of us doesn't know the guest that well, we figure out how to get there more reliably than we did.

[00:19:08.150] - Speaker 2

I was going to say what Charlie was saying about being nervous before this discussion with, uh, John Connaughton is something that I, that I've noticed before, that where you have a relationship and high regard for the guest— JC, Mark Sullivan, your father.

[00:19:27.570] - Speaker 1

I'm not sure I have old Mark Sullivan.

[00:19:29.650] - Speaker 2

All right. No, but you were a lot of history, right? You use the word nervous, but the devil-may-care Charlie Gifford vibe gives way a little bit to, I don't want to eff this up.

[00:19:45.570] - Speaker 1

Yeah. And maybe I use the term nervous. It was more of a standpoint of like, they all matter.

[00:19:52.670] - Speaker 3

Mm-hmm.

[00:19:53.310] - Speaker 2

Right.

[00:19:53.470] - Speaker 1

But when you have a guest like Bill Browder or Eugene Fama, or, and not maybe put him up on that category, but, you know, you want it to go, you really want to shine.

[00:20:09.550] - Speaker 2

I felt like early on the counterpart for me that I had to get past was not, you know, any sense of butterflies. But where I know the guest really well, I had to pull myself back from wanting to help them tell their story.

[00:20:29.810] - Speaker 3

All right, let's shift gears. What— Charlie, you first. What has changed over the last 5 years since you guys started to now?

[00:20:37.730] - Speaker 1

Well, one, interestingly, I think anecdotally, I remember when we were starting to— we started this, I went to a Guitar Center store to go buy like $300 or $400 worth of hardware because I was told you needed this mixing board and a fancy microphone and all these coax cables. I don't even know what these things are. And I just remember thinking, this is a disaster waiting to happen. And it was so frustrating. And I remember hiring like a consultant to come to the office to try to set it up and it worked great. And then he walked out the door and then everything, all hell broke loose. And I was like, this sucks., but then we migrated to this Riverside platform and you really don't need anything. And it used to be so complicated. Now what does that mean? That means every other person you've ever met in your life has a podcast, but it definitely makes it a hell of a lot easier.

[00:21:36.060] - Speaker 3

And this is not an ad for Riverside. I always say to people, you really only need 3 things to get a podcast started. Of course you need a ton more as you go, but you need a name, an image, for your podcast cover art and an episode. That's all you need to actually get approved in the podcast.

[00:21:55.310] - Speaker 1

That's a pretty low bar, and hence that's why every other person has a podcast.

[00:21:58.830] - Speaker 3

That is true. That is true. Andy, what about you? What has changed over the last 5 years for you?

[00:22:04.430] - Speaker 2

We often get onto the theme of, uh, differentiation. Most of our listeners are involved in the middle market M&A world where Charlie and I, they, you know, they either are on the buy side like Charlie or they're investment bankers, intermediaries like me. I think over the past 5 years, the story has been on Charlie's side of the aisle that achieving differentiation and above-market returns has gotten much harder for middle-market investment companies. I don't think that investment bankers and those on my side of the aisle are exempt. I think that, you know, particularly with the advent of, you know, of AI, we're just getting into the story of greater pressure on investment banks, including, you know, these firms that have become known for developing wonderful rosters of industry specialists.

[00:23:19.370] - Speaker 3

Hmm.

[00:23:20.330] - Speaker 2

Yeah.

[00:23:20.650] - Speaker 1

Well, I would agree that I think, well then let's play that forward. If it's getting tougher, we know it takes forever to kill a private equity fund. What does that mean, you know, 10 years from now? Just means that people split off, splinter off and hang their own shingle and old friends die and new ones come up.

[00:23:37.210] - Speaker 2

We're, we're already seeing that, not, not 10 years from now, but we've talked about the fact that there are more 35, 38-year-olds who, you know, rather than re-upping for Fund 3, who are, are saying, you know, the economics aren't that compelling. I see how hard these guys work. To maintain an investor base. I could go out with a couple of my buddies. If I find one deal, I'll be ahead. It's an interesting part of our podcast to be able to talk with people who are thinking in different ways about how to clear this rising bar.

[00:24:14.660] - Speaker 1

Yeah.

[00:24:15.380] - Speaker 2

I think one of the things that I think you bring to the discussion is operating off of a differentiated platform.

[00:24:25.710] - Speaker 1

And same with you.

[00:24:28.190] - Speaker 2

Oh, thank you, Charles.

[00:24:29.630] - Speaker 1

Oh, that was so awkward. I felt like hell to say that. It's like when you see somebody, you're like, you look really good. And you're like, you do too.

[00:24:36.910] - Speaker 3

That was a bonding moment. And I gave you both a point for that. That was a bonding moment.

[00:24:42.510] - Speaker 2

Excuse us while we, we're going to go, we're going to go, uh, rent one of those tandem bicycles.

[00:24:49.230] - Speaker 3

Oh no, no, no, no.

[00:24:50.750] - Speaker 1

Let's not get crazy here, there's sunshine.

[00:24:53.930] - Speaker 2

You're listening to Middle Market Musings, brought to you by Greenberg Variations Capital and New Heritage Capital.

[00:25:00.490] - Speaker 3

So you were talking about kind of the evolution of what has been going on. So if you could give one piece of advice to yourself before getting into the industry, what would it be?

[00:25:10.730] - Speaker 2

I think going back, I would have advised myself to take a harder swing at being an industry specialist. I mean, but my, my temperament is kind of more far-ranging. I like working with manufacturers and other industrial companies across a somewhat wider range, but investment banking has tilted so much in the direct— in the direction of industry specialization over the past 10 or 15 years that I think it would have served me well to have started off with a deeper grounding in that kind of platform.

[00:25:55.790] - Speaker 3

Would you have known to go into that specialty, or would you have been okay fumbling to figure out the specialty, but know that you were at least going in that route?

[00:26:06.030] - Speaker 2

Well, I think if you, you listen to the Rocky Pontikases and John Ferreras, our, our peers who are running large investment banks, you know, they, Everybody stumbled into it. They were at small firms or in small practices, and you did a deal or two, and that was enough to make you feel like an industry expert. And then it was just, uh, pick and shovel work. Go to the trade show. You'd get the exhibitor's directory. You'd take it back. You'd have an administrative assistant. You'd mark off names. Your assistant would put it into a CRM. I mean, it was a lot more labor-intensive to do something. Back in the day, there was no magic shortcut to developing industry vertical expertise. You just had to want to do it.

[00:27:04.070] - Speaker 3

Mm-hmm.

[00:27:04.790] - Speaker 1

It's not lost on me how difficult it is to find a seat in private equity. So what I'm about to say is probably I'm not sure how helpful it is, but, you know, when I think back, we, we just as a firm celebrated our 20th anniversary of, uh, launching. We, uh, myself and two of my partners started working together in 1999, but we launched our own effort in 2006. Um, and, um, so that was 20 years ago. And I really do think that like when I reflect back about, you know, over that time, what, what, what are the things that I, I've done, uh, the best. And it's like, you know, it's sometimes the decisions you, the most important decisions you make, you don't realize how important they are at the time, which is picking your partners carefully. And so, you know, I think that, you know, were you or anybody to join a private equity firm, you know, they're good firms and then they're not good firms and then they're great firms. And I think that diligencing people And track record is really, really important. And it's panacea if you can find great people and a great track record.

[00:28:12.790] - Speaker 1

And so, you know, I think, you know, I think back about, and I posted this on the little LinkedIn thing about saying the best decision I've made over the past 20 years is the part of the company that I've kept. And I really do mean it. I think we all work very well together. We complement each other very, very well. And we all have a specific skill set that complements each other in a way that has allowed us to create what we have.

[00:28:38.430] - Speaker 2

This is a way of tipping my hat to Mark and Nicky and you and your team. What do you see as the relative core strengths among the 3 or 4 of you?

[00:28:57.360] - Speaker 3

Well, great question.

[00:28:59.600] - Speaker 1

I mean, as, as individuals or as like a collective body?

[00:29:03.600] - Speaker 2

Well, as part, as, as individuals coming together in a team.

[00:29:08.480] - Speaker 3

That was my question. What makes a good partner? You said track record, but what qualities makes a good partner?

[00:29:14.960] - Speaker 1

I mean, I think the best partnership is when you have a shared vision. And, and I do think it's been iterative, but we found a lane in how we structure deals differently than most most of the private equity firms out there. And there's a collective belief that having a differentiated corporate finance solution in a relatively undifferentiated world of private equity is, you know, a, a unique offering. And so that coupled with a real feeling of respecting one another is really, really important. But I think what, what unites us is a culture, and it gets back to that human component where I know what I'm good at. I know what each of the other individuals are good at. And we all have this sense of complementing, helping one another. And it's that type of culture based upon respect and humility. Notwithstanding me making fun of my compatriot here, I guess I have to say something nice about him. I do enjoy what we're doing. I think I, I, I, I wouldn't continue to do this until our 90th or 91st episode if I didn't enjoy it. And I do think it's, it's fun and it's technology has certainly allowed it to become easier and more efficient.

[00:30:30.170] - Speaker 1

And we, as you know, we don't spend a lot of time on it, certainly on the research side ahead of the time. But, um, it has proven to be a very much worthwhile exercise.

[00:30:39.610] - Speaker 3

You both got points.

[00:30:40.490] - Speaker 2

I would like some, sometime I would like to have dinner with Mark and Nikki and Melissa without, you know, the Charlie's partners, without Charlie being—

[00:30:51.980] - Speaker 3

I was gonna say, did I hear without Charlie?

[00:30:54.700] - Speaker 2

I feel like we could have a good conversation.

[00:30:58.220] - Speaker 1

I, I, I have, I have, uh, I got, I got nothing to hide. You're certainly welcome to do it.

[00:31:05.580] - Speaker 2

Kim, to answer your question about investment banks, you know, so Greenberg Variations Capital, as one partner, but, uh, I collaborate with and I'm also associated with Concilium Partners in, in Boston. And, you know, the two active partners there, uh, Greg Sneddon and Ben Chang, are wonderful partners to, to work with. And part of it is what Charlie's saying, you know, complementary strength. But in investment banking, shared vision, values, that stuff, but it also is feeling like other people look at your deal, your problems, your contributions under the same wattage light that they look at theirs. My observation over 25, 30 years is that the profession is full of people who don't do that. They're very successful, but their deal is the best deal. Your deal has problems. Their insight is the best insight. And it just is so much healthier for an enterprise where you feel like people are engaged in a more equal way. You're having a discussion. It's not like, This person's deal is going to win or this person's point of view is going to win. The best thing is going to win. The best outcome for the client, the best idea.

[00:32:45.230] - Speaker 2

And where you experience that or where you see it in an M&A firm or another professional services firm, it provides enormous energy. And where you don't have it, Typically that's a partnership that is not long for this world. Yeah.

[00:33:04.370] - Speaker 3

You guys are cut from the same cloth. That's what I'm hearing. Sorry. Not you two. No, no, no, no, no.

[00:33:12.690] - Speaker 1

Charlie?

[00:33:14.050] - Speaker 3

Who Andy's partnering with.

[00:33:15.410] - Speaker 1

Oh yeah. Got it.

[00:33:16.930] - Speaker 2

Charlie, what do you— thinking about our, you know, the run of guests that we have. It strikes me that an awful lot of them, particularly the most successful, grew up in economically modest circumstances, but with parents who had strong values.

[00:33:43.040] - Speaker 1

You know, I think there's a— I think there absolutely is a correlation to that because, you know, we ask that question, what was it like? What would you do as a kid? And A lot of the— more often than not, you hear modest beginnings, strong parents, strong family, driven at a young age to make a difference.

[00:34:06.590] - Speaker 3

Yeah, love that.

[00:34:08.990] - Speaker 2

It does make you think. I mean, like, a lot— I mean, I think we won't embarrass anyone by naming names here, but a lot have that, that story. And, you know, they, they were you know, scintillating students, great at athletics, whatever it was that gave them the leg up. But that came from that background. And it does, it makes, we talk about this sometimes, it makes you think as a parent that it's less common for one of these extremely successful people to say, oh yeah, my father was a partner at a private equity firm. My mother was a middle market investment banker. You wonder about what got supplied in that kind of upbringing, which we don't get to provide in our kids' upbringing.

[00:35:01.220] - Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:02.580] - Speaker 3

What's one thing Andy does that drives you crazy? Just one, please. We don't need a laundry list. Just one.

[00:35:10.340] - Speaker 1

I got 99 problems and What does he do that drives me crazy? Oh, I don't know. That's kind of mean, but let me think of the top 20.

[00:35:23.550] - Speaker 2

The question I would ask, the things that the two of you say drive you crazy, do they really drive you crazy? So like the obvious thing for me to say is that it drives me crazy when it seems clear that Charlie is not listening to me.

[00:35:39.720] - Speaker 1

I like it when I, when I'm talking to you and I was always, when I sign off, I'm like, oh, Andy, I saw so-and-so the other day. And, um, they said to tell you, and then I diggle and I disconnect right before I say it. Cause you get so excited. Like, oh, who did you meet? And then you're like, and I'm like, delete. Bye.

[00:35:59.400] - Speaker 2

You know, and Charlie would say, oh, you ask such long questions. And, you know, I, does that really? Does that really bother him or does he secretly feel like, oh, you know, Andy actually is contributing some level of interest?

[00:36:14.340] - Speaker 1

Probably the former. But I digress. How about the time when— this is a fun story. One of my— might be my favorites, but maybe the hardest I've laughed in our whole shindig is that when Kim was trying to bring us forward into the 21st century and you had a document that you had that Kim was putting in Google Sheets, which I don't think I need to describe to people, but for those that I do, it's a document that like Excel that can be shared and changed real time. So be used in a collaborative way. And Andy asked a very serious question. Well, how do I get the Google Sheets into Excel? So I can make changes to it, which the great thing is, is that you don't understand the humor in it. It makes it even that much more funny.

[00:37:10.880] - Speaker 2

Well, I'll confess that another aspect of that is that most of the time, you know, by the light of day, I'm a service provider and I'm responding to clients. In this case, I felt like Kim was the service provider and like, why is she forcing me to figure out this sketchy startup fledgling?

[00:37:38.430] - Speaker 3

Definitely not a startup, but yeah.

[00:37:39.790] - Speaker 2

Complicated utility when she could just be sending me a document.

[00:37:44.350] - Speaker 3

I did. Have you noticed I have been sending you the documents? I learned real quick.

[00:37:53.000] - Speaker 2

We should talk about music. Get us into music, Kim.

[00:37:57.080] - Speaker 3

What's your catalog, Andy? If you're on a desert island, 3 artists, go.

[00:38:02.200] - Speaker 1

Little River Band. You have to say that was pretty funny.

[00:38:04.920] - Speaker 2

Let's see. Captain and Tennille is at 1 or 2 entries.

[00:38:08.680] - Speaker 1

Is Captain and Tennille 2 artists or 1?

[00:38:12.360] - Speaker 2

Yeah, let's see. The Carpenters? Are they duo or no? I would say the— I see my choices are like chalk, as they say.

[00:38:26.410] - Speaker 1

Do they say it? What does that mean? Because I'm not familiar with that. What does that mean?

[00:38:31.770] - Speaker 2

Chalk is, I believe it's a betting term that means that you're going for the obvious classic low-return choice. So Beatles.

[00:38:44.770] - Speaker 3

Like the Beatles. That's so funny. I was going to say the Beatles.

[00:38:47.410] - Speaker 2

I would say the Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, and the E Street Band. And the third is, you know, very like right now I would say Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

[00:38:59.410] - Speaker 3

I think it's a good list.

[00:39:00.770] - Speaker 1

Yeah, it's, he's just, he's playing to the audience.

[00:39:05.090] - Speaker 3

Charlie, what's yours?

[00:39:07.250] - Speaker 1

The Grateful Dead, the Rolling Stones, and Bob Marley.

[00:39:12.690] - Speaker 3

Oh, that's good. Dude, wait, have you seen—

[00:39:15.730] - Speaker 1

that's been pretty consistent.

[00:39:17.490] - Speaker 3

Grateful Dead at the Sphere yet? Did you see them there?

[00:39:20.130] - Speaker 1

Uh, may he— may Bobby Weir rest in peace. I saw them 4 times at the Sphere. Yes. And I saw U2 at the Sphere too.

[00:39:27.330] - Speaker 3

That's amazing. That's amazing.

[00:39:29.250] - Speaker 2

Charlie, I, I actually really like—

[00:39:31.170] - Speaker 1

I, I like the Stones, but Charlie kind of crowds me out because I love The Stones. I've been fortunate enough to be in the lead singer's company sometimes. And I act like an absolute, my children, when I get around Mick Jagger, my children are like, dad, what is wrong with you? That's hilarious. It's pretty weird. I will tell you one other funny story about my desert island group. I was on a trip with my family at a beach in Mexico and Bob Weir was lying on a daybed. This is probably 10 years or so ago. And I was all geeked out about I told my 11-year-old at the time, she's 21 or something like that. I don't know how old she is. I think she's 21. And I said, hey, look, here's the deal. I'm going to get up and go talk to that guy. And if I turn around and give you the thumbs up, I want you to take a picture with me and this guy. And she's like, dad, you've never done that before in your life. And it was Bob Weir. And so I, I walked over and I said, I'm not this guy, Bobby, but I would be so psyched to get a picture with you.

[00:40:40.840] - Speaker 1

I've, uh, listened to your music all of my life. He's like, yeah, no problem, man. He got up. We got a great picture together. And I said, I want you to take like 105 pictures in 2 seconds. And so she did. And we got a great picture. She goes, dad, that's so embarrassing. Why did you want to take a picture with that old guy with skinny legs? He looks like the Lorax. Anyway, that's good fun.

[00:41:03.080] - Speaker 2

Is that quite the same circumstance? But the most charismatic star I have ever met was Angelica Huston.

[00:41:15.110] - Speaker 3

Ooh.

[00:41:16.390] - Speaker 2

I sat next to her at a dinner once, and I was married at the time, and it was like my brain turned to Jell-O. But she was just a lovely woman, charismatic. Attentive, great voice. And I did not even have the presence to ask to have a picture taken.

[00:41:39.520] - Speaker 3

Starshock.

[00:41:41.360] - Speaker 2

So it's a—

[00:41:42.000] - Speaker 1

I don't really know much about it. I don't tell— maybe you could educate me. And Angelica Huston, was that like John Malkovich's wife? Was that in a movie?

[00:41:55.200] - Speaker 2

Who's John? She was— I think she was married to Jack Nicholson.

[00:41:59.040] - Speaker 1

Okay.

[00:42:00.150] - Speaker 2

Yes, she's— so that makes her like 85 now, or she's probably like 75, but no, it's not.

[00:42:08.070] - Speaker 1

I mean, always on brand if nothing else.

[00:42:10.790] - Speaker 2

I know, I know. I don't even— this is why, you know, we talk about our, you know, who is going to be a guest on our 100th episode when it comes up next year. And I mentioned this to Henry Greenberg, my son who's home from, from college. And he said, oh, I could be your guest. And I think that you and Charlie actually getting together is a, is a, is a bad idea. I think you should have your children on your 100th because, because, well, see, Henry has a whole roster of stories that you would consider odd, Brad, like my repeatedly referring to, uh, Dua Lipa as 1950s film actress Ida Lupino.

[00:42:57.510] - Speaker 3

It's actually a good assessment coming from—

[00:43:03.110] - Speaker 2

Yeah, you know, like Ida Lupino has a new record out. So it would be not good for me for the two of you to catch up live.

[00:43:13.110] - Speaker 1

Andy, don't be rude. Let Kim answer her three desert island artists.

[00:43:17.760] - Speaker 3

Oh, I was gonna say mine will age me, so that's— there's that.

[00:43:21.280] - Speaker 1

Um, not the company you've kept. He said, you know, Doobie Brothers and Bread and Seals and Crofts, so you're— you're safe.

[00:43:31.600] - Speaker 3

So keep in mind I am 40, but, um, so my first one's Dermot Kennedy.

[00:43:36.560] - Speaker 1

Uh, Dermot Kennedy?

[00:43:37.840] - Speaker 3

Yes, yes. Have you heard of him? He's a singer-songwriter from Ireland. He's incredible. That's the only one that I could feel has some street cred. And then I'm going to go complete teeny bop for the last two. Taylor Swift.

[00:43:54.080] - Speaker 1

I thought you were going to say Yes, the band.

[00:43:58.080] - Speaker 3

Okay. No, no, no. And then to tap into childhood nostalgia, NSYNC reunited.

[00:44:05.680] - Speaker 1

Oh, okay.

[00:44:06.720] - Speaker 3

The boy band.

[00:44:08.400] - Speaker 1

What do you— are you guys—

[00:44:10.080] - Speaker 3

Really?

[00:44:10.800] - Speaker 1

The Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce, topic.

[00:44:13.990] - Speaker 2

I—

[00:44:14.550] - Speaker 1

an hour before we started recording this, I may have said to somebody, somebody, why is this national— why is this captivating the world like it is? It's bananas.

[00:44:24.710] - Speaker 3

If you guys remember when Victoria and David Beckham, um, first got together, so Spice Girls and obviously famous soccer player, I would say it's similar to the phenomenon that is happening in the sense of someone from the music industry who is considered one of the most famous people in the world, and then, uh, definitely a higher-level athlete. I wouldn't say he's the most famous person in the world, but I think that's where that is. And there's obviously ins and outs of like, she's finally finding someone that has— that she's been writing about in her music since she was 15.

[00:44:59.220] - Speaker 1

But think about when they break up, think about the, the, the song she's gonna write about him.

[00:45:04.500] - Speaker 3

It's gonna be an amazing album, but that's not gonna happen.

[00:45:06.900] - Speaker 1

That's so rude to say. I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

[00:45:10.260] - Speaker 2

No, it's a fair assessment.

[00:45:12.340] - Speaker 3

She has a breakup albums.

[00:45:13.760] - Speaker 1

Oh my gosh.

[00:45:15.040] - Speaker 2

So by the time this episode airs, the wedding will have taken place and presumably they'll still be together. But if somebody follows this more closely, Kip, what— Taylor Swift, you know, an incredibly talented singer-songwriter, business mind, but Is there any part of these individuals that gets left behind as private? Their sophistication, calculation in planning this as a media event is like, I mean, I just wonder if there is like, is there any of your soul left just for you, your family?

[00:46:05.360] - Speaker 3

It's so true. "This is your wedding." It's interesting you say that because I don't think it's actually coming from them. It's coming from the fans. The fans are way too consumed of that. But I was going to bring up—

[00:46:18.880] - Speaker 2

Wait, wait, wait. The fans didn't rent Madison Square Garden.

[00:46:23.280] - Speaker 3

No, but the leaking— they're not trying to leak this data. You know what I mean? Yes.

[00:46:30.790] - Speaker 1

She, I mean, I have immense respect for her. I think she's an incredible businesswoman and I think her message empowering young girls is awesome as a father of 3 girls. And she is somewhat of a victim of her own success. No, she doesn't have to rent MSG, but if she tried to do this at her coastal home in Rhode Island, I mean, that would just be a bleep show.

[00:46:55.190] - Speaker 3

One of the things that I would love to hear, and I didn't prep you for this, maybe at a later date. Uh, is, is what she did in our Heiress Tour in the sense of revitalizing the economy in each of those cities. And then the beautiful thing was she was giving back to each one. Like, she was giving X amount to food banks in every city she stopped in along the way. So those are the stories that I personally love hearing about with her. But yeah, as a businesswoman, it just skyrocket.

[00:47:25.740] - Speaker 1

No doubt.

[00:47:27.340] - Speaker 3

She actually was— now I'll stop geeking out after this. She's the first musician, woman musician, who's ever made over $1 billion only on music. Other people have had water brands or a makeup line or whatever it may be. She's the first one to ever do that.

[00:47:43.900] - Speaker 1

Do you know who the first self-made woman billionaire was?

[00:47:49.020] - Speaker 3

No.

[00:47:50.060] - Speaker 2

Who?

[00:47:50.620] - Speaker 1

Andy?

[00:47:51.260] - Speaker 2

I'm going to say Oprah.

[00:47:53.100] - Speaker 1

Martha Stewart.

[00:47:55.340] - Speaker 3

Wow.

[00:47:55.580] - Speaker 1

And if you haven't seen the Martha Stewart documentary on Netflix, it's so good.

[00:48:01.660] - Speaker 3

Fantastic.

[00:48:02.300] - Speaker 1

It is outrageously entertaining.

[00:48:05.100] - Speaker 2

She—

[00:48:05.340] - Speaker 3

I didn't know how rogue she was.

[00:48:06.860] - Speaker 1

Oh my God. She is a powerhouse.

[00:48:11.340] - Speaker 3

Oh yeah.

[00:48:12.060] - Speaker 1

Big props.

[00:48:14.300] - Speaker 2

I haven't followed her in recent years. But you know what I thought was just baller was her agreeing to go to prison for that, you know, that insider trading thing and just like, "F this. I don't have time to sit out years of legal. I'm going to go." And then just like being this dynamo who, you know, giving all of these, you know, these hard-edged prison women recipes. It was—

[00:48:40.220] - Speaker 3

you'll see it in the documentary. It's fascinating why she did it and also what her experience was at prison. It sounded slight, almost delightful, as it would for Martha Stewart.

[00:48:52.220] - Speaker 2

Yeah, but that, but that's, that's, it goes back to what we were saying about the, the upbringings of, of some of, of our guests. I mean, that, that kind of steely character doesn't come from nowhere. She grew up in hard surroundings, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:49:08.300] - Speaker 3

Oh yeah.

[00:49:10.140] - Speaker 2

She, uh, impressive woman.

[00:49:13.270] - Speaker 3

I have a couple questions for you guys. With your children, what do you think if they could describe Andy Yu, Charlie Yu, in a phrase, what would it be? Or maybe it's advice or one word.

[00:49:28.550] - Speaker 1

Oh, well, that's easy. I have this thing called, uh, embarrassingly, um, because my father always had talked to me about judgment. The most important thing in the world is judgment. That having confidence, which is the ante to play the game, have to be confident in yourself, believe in yourself, but is to have good judgment. So I kind of like tried to like, oh, what would I call it? And he called it the big J. And anytime like I was going out at night with my friends and driving away when I was 17 years old, he always used to say, remember the big J, the big J. It's all comes down to judgment. Don't be a jackass. Uh, the jackass was the J was for judgment, not jackass. But, um, mine is, I always talk to them and I have like little keychains made up and like little, like other trinkets around their room that they never use, but it's P.O.B. And the P stands for perspective. The O is optionality, and the B is balance. And I think everything in life, those three things, perspective, optionality, and balance captures so much of life. Having, if you're having a bad day, stop feeling sorry for yourself.

[00:50:30.850] - Speaker 1

Pick yourself up. You're going to be fine. You will be fine. Optionality. Don't fall in love with a plan A. Always have a different option out there. And then balance. You know, don't fall in love with, you know, I don't care if you think you're a really good soccer player. Good. Give it a go. But don't think that you're going to be making, you're going to become the next Leo, Lionel Messi. Be balanced in what you do. Don't drink too much. Don't be an idiot. Be smart. Use your judgment. But have balance in life, whether it's work, play, athletics, politics, exclamation point, be balanced. Okay. Now I'm going to get off my soapbox.

[00:51:13.530] - Speaker 3

I love that.

[00:51:16.730] - Speaker 1

Thank you.

[00:51:17.210] - Speaker 2

That was great. There are a number of things that my sons have heard me say enough that I hear them quote. One that comes to mind is, "If you want something done, ask a busy person to do it." I recited that for a lot of years before knowing that it was attributed to— it's attributed to Lucille Ball, another star of the current era.

[00:51:44.480] - Speaker 3

Oh, she's classic though. Lucille Ball.

[00:51:46.400] - Speaker 1

Come on.

[00:51:46.800] - Speaker 3

Yeah.

[00:51:47.760] - Speaker 1

I mean, next thing, Eartha Kitt might be— you're going to bring Eartha Kitt to the deathbed island too, right? And Edith Piaf.

[00:51:55.340] - Speaker 2

Yes, as Ethel Merman was saying to me. So I think it's, you know, some of the things that Charlie nicely summarized. Years ago on Father's Day, I asked my older son, you know, say 3 things you associate with me. And he said, you're smart, you're good at solving problems, And I don't want to say that you're likable, but you're good at getting people onto your side. In the end, there certainly are moments where we may feel like our kids are harsh or unfair graders, but in the end, they get it right. When I think about the handful of memorable moments on the podcast, having Chad Gifford on was one for me. Very distinguished business figure in his own right. So it was great to talk about business history, but it was also seeing the lineage from him to my co-host was very rewarding.

[00:53:04.980] - Speaker 1

Thank you, Andy.

[00:53:05.620] - Speaker 2

That's nice.

[00:53:08.180] - Speaker 3

You got a point there, Andy. That was really good. That was great.

[00:53:11.380] - Speaker 2

Yeah.

[00:53:11.860] - Speaker 1

Yeah.

[00:53:12.100] - Speaker 2

And I didn't, and I played this, I didn't make any jokes like, oh, you know, I guess virtue skips a generation. I didn't do any of that.

[00:53:18.340] - Speaker 1

Well, that's what That's what he always— that's what he says to me because my 3 daughters are weirdly bright. And he always says, you should either have them paternity tested or it clearly skipped a generation.

[00:53:32.080] - Speaker 3

That's amazing. All right. To close this out.

[00:53:36.160] - Speaker 2

Final. All right.

[00:53:37.440] - Speaker 3

Uh, so this will be episode 91. So, but you had 90 guests prior to that. What are your, both of your hopes and dreams for the next 90 episodes?

[00:53:52.710] - Speaker 2

That we find 90 people?

[00:53:58.230] - Speaker 3

That's fair.

[00:53:59.430] - Speaker 2

Wow.

[00:53:59.830] - Speaker 1

We'd have to ask 250 to get 90?

[00:54:05.430] - Speaker 2

I want to say that we've been thinking about this 100th podcast, which is coming up. And we want it to be a big guest. We have some ideas ourselves, but I want to put out the notice to Middle Market Musings Nation. If anyone has any ideas of luminaries and a relationship with them, get in touch with one of us.

[00:54:31.660] - Speaker 1

I think that my hopes and dreams are for my my wife and my children to listen to more than 0 minutes of any one episode. I'd say number 2 would be, I do hope we get better. I hope we continue to show improvement on the conversations we have, questions asked, follow-up questions asked, and I hope it continues to be well received by, you know, our listening audience. And I mean, hell, if we, obviously if we don't have fun and enjoy, do, continue to enjoy do it, you won't be hearing from us. So we'll see where it goes.

[00:55:14.610] - Speaker 2

Yeah.

[00:55:14.930] - Speaker 1

But ain't going anywhere for the time being.

[00:55:19.090] - Speaker 2

On Charlie's theory that by the time you get to the end, nobody listens to it. I'll also say that I've had the experience that he has not had of hosting an episode without him a couple of years ago. I was at the DealMax conference and he had some exotic thing to go to. So I did a video episode, you know, with a couple of friends of ours who were great. And I have to say that it was a little deflating trying to do this without my comrade here interrupting, not listening to me.

[00:56:05.190] - Speaker 1

Making fun of you. I mean, who— it's so boring.

[00:56:08.630] - Speaker 2

It's boring.

[00:56:09.190] - Speaker 3

It would be boring.

[00:56:10.470] - Speaker 2

Yeah. So I, when I, I, I, when I, I think of continuing to do it, uh, it is indivisible from suffering through all of that.

[00:56:22.910] - Speaker 1

Another awkward moment. Thanks. That's nice.

[00:56:27.550] - Speaker 3

That was a good response. That was great. Well, thank you both for letting me do this today. It was a pleasure. I don't regret it anymore. So that was good.

[00:56:35.470] - Speaker 2

You don't?

[00:56:36.270] - Speaker 3

No, not at all.

[00:56:37.310] - Speaker 2

No. Kim, thank you for everything that you're doing, including putting up with us. This is 2 hours of time you'll never have back.

[00:56:48.990] - Speaker 3

I have two older brothers, so I got it. You guys are fun.

[00:56:53.710] - Speaker 1

Thank you for listening to this episode of Middle Market Musings. We'd like to thank Charlie Gifford for bringing us here today. He's a wonderful person. And, uh, oh yeah, Andy Greenberg as well. If you like this episode, we encourage you to like and follow Middle Market Musings on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen, and then obviously encourage you to share with your Thanks for listening, and we hope to catch you on the next one. I think I did that. That was pretty good. I did it from memory.

[00:57:20.230] - Speaker 2

Did you thank Jason?

[00:57:21.350] - Speaker 1

Oh yeah. And Jason. And then Kim. Was that our outro? Yeah, that was our outro. All right. Peace out, people.