Tales From Aztlantis
We explore Chicano, Mexicano, and Mesoamerican history, archaeology, and culture, and combat the spread of disinformation about these very topics. Your hosts Kurly Tlapoyawa and Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl invite you to join them on a fascinating journey through Mesoamerica's past, present, and future!
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Tales From Aztlantis
Episode 10: The Reality Dysfunction Crossover!
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The Reality Dysfunction Crossover!
World's collide in our very first crossover episode! In this episode, we team up with our homie Ernesto Mireles over at the Reality Dysfunction podcast for a discussion about pseudohistory, tradition, and what we hope to accomplish with this podcast series!
Subscribe to the Reality Dysfunction here: https://waroftheflea.podbean.com/
Your hosts:
Kurly Tlapoyawa is an archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His research covers Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the historical connections between the two regions. He is the author of numerous books and has presented lectures at the University of New Mexico, Yale University, San Diego State University, and numerous others. He is currently a professor of Chicano Studies at the Colegio Chicano del Pueblo, a free online educational institution.
@kurlytlapoyawa
Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus.
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Your Hosts:
Kurly Tlapoyawa is an archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His research covers Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the historical connections between the two regions. He is the author of numerous books and has presented lectures at the University of New Mexico, Harvard University, Yale University, San Diego State University, and numerous others. He most recently released his documentary short film "Guardians of the Purple Kingdom," and is a cultural consultant for Nickelodeon Animation Studios.
@kurlytlapoyawa
Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus.
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pseudo history, new age nonsense, and other stories of adventure. We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.
SPEAKER_02And Ruben Ariano, also known as Tlacateka.
SPEAKER_03Welcome, dear listeners, to episode 10 of Tales from Os Dlantes. We're going to switch it up a little bit on this episode and do our very first crossover with the Reality Dysfunction podcast. We've recorded this interview with Ruben and I and the host of the Reality Dysfunction, Dr. Ernesto Todmireles, as a way to explain our positions and give our listeners a better understanding of who we are and where we come from and what our goals are with this podcast. I encourage you to look up the Reality Dysfunction on whatever podcatcher that you used and give it a listen because it's a really, really good podcast. It's described as broadcasting from occupied territories, a space where diverse groups of brown folk from across the nation can explore the political experiences in the social future of the Chicano community, control the narrative, resist the dysfunction. The reality dysfunction is hosted by Ernesto Mireles. He's a professor of social justice studies at Prescott College and the author of the award-winning book, Insurgent Aslan. So here we go with our very first crossover. I hope you enjoy this episode of Tales from Aslantes.
SPEAKER_05Greetings, Dysfunctionals. Dr. Ernesto back today with Curly Tilapoyawa and Dr. Ruben Ariano to talk with them about their new podcast, Tales from Aslantis. For all of you out there who are reading and working to uncover and recover our indigenous past, these two brothers are doing solid work in uncovering the encroachments of Western thought on Indigenous thought. This is good stuff. But before we get into it let's have these two introduce themselves.
SPEAKER_02Okay well my name is Ruben Ariano, known as Tlacatecat, and uh uh I'm a um professor of history I teach history and I've been doing that for about five to six years now professionally received my PhD in history, masters, uh I went through the ethnic studies program. So I'm versed in ethnic studies history of you know anthropology you name it and I've but I've been studying you know um things related to Chicano history Mexican uh history since I was a kid since I was a teenager you know I used to go to the library and and check out books you know interested in my background my history back when you know chicanismo was in the 90s you know the mid to to late 90s or early to mid nineties because it started fading to the late 90s but it was still you know a cool thing to say that you were Chicano and in many places you know to claim that you know not only mexicano Mexican American but also chicano and so that's that's how I got into Mexicayot you know um in the late 90s 99 2000 and got into danza and I was on Sante for a while did ceremony uh you know um mexica sweat lodges uh went to Urikuta a number of times with uh Makalpuli here in Dallas um done ceremony with raramuries um with maya I mean you name it um northern uh uh ceremonies as well with the NAC and Coahuiltecos recently in the last uh four to five years so I'm uh you know I've I've been in the tradicion uh one way or another for a good 20 something years at this point and so that's that's what I bring to to the discussion in terms of uh the podcast that we have going on uh the uh Tales from Aslantes.
SPEAKER_03Uh my name is Curly Plapoyawa I am an archaeologist working in the state of New Mexico I'm a uh professor of Chicano studies at the prestigious Colegio Chicano del Pueblo a free online learning institution uh that specializes in Chicano studies and I am one of the co-hosts of Tales from Atlantes I um I got first introduced into you know the Danza Azteca around 1992 during one of the uh 500 years of resistance uh events that was being held at the University of New Mexico I saw a group of danzantes performing and I was just really attracted to it you know the the drum the the smell of the copal is just seeing the the dance I I I knew that it was something that I really wanted to be a part of. So I started dancing here locally with one of the local kalpulis. You know from there I just went full on into uh exploring um as much about my culture as I could you know I'm a child of the Chicano movement so I always grew up with a very strong political identity I just grew you know grew up around that in southern Colorado it was it was pretty contentious during the the Chicano movement a lot of violence a lot of uh police violence car bombing stuff like that so that's just kind of like the environment that I grew up in so I had this very strong political identity but it's funny because my mom was always um kind of giving me hell like yeah you know all this about politics but what do you know about this? You know what do you know about your culture? What do you know about your history? And so she kind of really guided me along you know she gave me all of her old um Chicano studies books from when she was in school just really guided me uh on that path and eventually you know I moved to Mexico I I went to a lot of ceremonies I was a I I danced with the Mexicayo with uh Semanawaklamachtiloyan every weekend there in the Sócalo I was there studying Nahuatl uh studying my family's history and then when I came back I moved to Texas and that's where I met Ruben and uh we just kind of fell into the same group and uh became really good friends and a lot of the same stuff, you know, doing medicine meetings, uh going to uh different dansa events. I used to host a uh a Nahuat study circle at my house. We would just get together all the time and and trade ideas. It was about that time you know I I I was like a hardcore student of Mexicayot, right? Like I wanted to be the hard the like the most down Azteca that I could be and so I just read voraciously every piece of information that I could and you know it was Ruben and I were always kind of the um I don't want to say the troublemakers but you know we were the ones that what's that the odd men out. Yeah you know we we were the ones that were always questioning things. I think it was just in our nature to well we would hear something we'd be like what'd you think about that when that guy said this and we would but it would be by ourselves right we wouldn't say it out in front of everybody else because we didn't know how other people were going to respond to it. But we started hearing you know you'd hear some things in ceremony or from other people that that were coming through Texas and you know spreading their teachings and um we would just kind of like shoot each other a look like did you hear that and then we would regroup later and and do our own research and look into it like well where's this stuff where's this stuff coming from yeah for example did you know that um sitlali is our first home that's where we come from we come from the stars. Se Tlali because we break down the word sitlali it's se lali se one lali earth one land because we come from the Pleiades and I remember we were in the same ceremony when somebody said that and everybody's sitting around the circle there's a fire going you know and you could see everybody nodding their heads like yeah yeah and Ruben and I just kind of like stare at each other from across the circle like did you just hear what our track music yeah that kind of set off our whole um endeavor which has culminated in this podcast where we're finally just kind of putting it all out there.
SPEAKER_05I want to say at the risk I don't know about the cyst but at the risk of uh sounding like a a total fanboy um really into the podcast looking forward to uh the other episodes uh Tales from Aslantis and so like Curly I've been following your work for a while this is uh this isn't the first time that you've been on the podcast on the reality dysfunction I I really appreciate you coming back to talk about this and Ruben it's really nice to meet you I've also been uh following uh the work that you're doing and so you know I've just been listening to this podcast over the last couple of days really just kind of blown away by the way that you guys are are approaching it. I mean it's very uh factual it's very matter of fact I know before we started recording you all had said something about how people are charging you with being sarcastic about your culture. Uh I don't pick that up at all. I it seems to me that there's really very little sarcasm. I think that that might be actually the problem with a lot of people it's like you said at the end of your uh first podcast really you know the truth it it doesn't it's like medicine it doesn't always taste good but it's good for you where I mean I know where the information for this podcast comes from but what was the sort of process that you all went through to um to arrive at this moment like we need to do this.
SPEAKER_03It's an idea that we'd been kicking around for a while, right? And then finally we were just like you know we should do it. Like we because we had talked about it before and um I'm a big fan of this one podcast uh that I listened to a lot that kind of inspired me to um just finally sit down and write out a structure of like okay if we do it this is how we should do it. And then we just we just talked one day we set a date and a time we're like let's just try it and uh record it.
SPEAKER_02I started a podcast with a colleague of mine when I was out in El Paso a couple of years ago and it's unfortunate the distance and you know you know we're both kind of busy he's a professor of history as well and and we just couldn't keep it up and we talked about keeping it up and we just couldn't do it. So I that's where I got my my start but before doing that podcast I had been very um uh intimidated by the whole idea of doing a podcast I didn't know the first thing about you know because to me it seemed like doing a radio show but it's online and as opposed to a radio show where you you tune in and you listen to it and if you missed it you know oh well with this it's like anyone can access it at any time as long as it's up on the internet someone can download it and share it and that that that can get a little intimidating if you're kind of old school like me and you're not really used to you know I mean I didn't grow up you know wanting to be uh a radio host though you know but I think this idea of sharing our knowledge is something that we've been talking about for a long time and so we've done it over the years through various media we've started doing it. I mean you could say that it really started back in the old society discussion boards that we used to have in the the early odds into the early teens and then after that you know we had other platforms that's when you know Facebook came around and then Twitter and so people started migrating to those faces and so we sort of migrated to and then people started you know getting into the whole blog thing and so we decided we couldn't even give it a shot there and so that's where the idea for the mechanical transitioning from the old machine society type of website to a more blog focused website came into you know being and so that's where we started to write and share our ideas our thoughts our ever evolving sort of notion of what it means to be a mechanical within the chickyode and you know what does it mean to be indigenous in terms of the indigenity of one's person you know and so that you know we've we've written about this stuff over the years and we've kind of tossed around the idea of uh doing a podcast once you know we were we realized that people weren't really I mean you still have some traffic to to these websites reading reading our old material but it it started to dwindle uh some years ago when people started to you know focusing more on on content that's more audio and visually related you know people don't really have time for whatever reason you know to sit down and read something and everyone's on their phone nowadays so you you know people want you know media that they can consume on their phone and so what's the best way to do that than through you know something that's that's an audio uh consumption so this just made sense you know and so now what we're doing is we're sort of recycling some of the old things that we've written over the years and and ideas that we've discussed and tossed around over the years and and we're translating that into this into this podcast medium.
SPEAKER_05As I've been listening over the the last couple of days I mean you guys have been going over a whole bunch of stuff even in these these first couple of episodes I mean the the range is I it's I think it's it's pretty astonishing I guess my my biggest question I mean as I'm listening to it I have a several questions that I really want to ask you guys but I think just kind of starting it off to me what it seems like is that you have a project that's that you've begun and certainly not just in the podcast but you know like Ruben was talking about a second ago over a period of years through like the websites and the different things but that it's it's really about confronting uh Western encroachment like thought encroachment you know and and in the way that like the initial uh missionaries and religious people that came over it's like a 500 year plus psyops up like this psychological operation where like totally subverting the ideas of the way that indigenous people at the time thought about the world right and so I guess part of my question is why is it so important to to confront that encroachment at this point I mean 500 years later there's a whole bunch of things that that have happened you know politically and culturally right I mean the the whole idea of decolonization is is alive I don't know if it's well but it's live right what what difference does it make if Hunabku is something that our ancestors talked about well as um that's a limited question yeah I'm sorry well I can say that as first and foremost just as um even just outside of like a cultural lens just as a scientist I want the best most accurate information possible like I want to make my decisions based on solid information.
SPEAKER_03Western thinking Carly yeah right well informed decisions no they don't I don't think western people they they don't get to capture that that's uh yeah right but um so you know I I I don't like to be um I don't know what what's what's a good word for it like just embedded in dogma and just have this unchangeable position right like no this is what I learned and could because that's that's what religious fundamentalists do. And I'm not a religious fundamentalist. So I want good information and so my perspectives will change as you present better information to me right it's and that's not the the sole domain of of white people like being able to change your perspective based on good information. And and it's funny because I get attacked like that uh quite a bit especially on Facebook people will be like well you're uh you know as an archaeologist you you're you're supporting the white man's science or you know you're using books our ancestors didn't use books and it's like well actually they did they they burned most of them that's the problem is we don't have the records the book people yeah the book people and um so for me it's important because the the truth matters you know facts matter when you can distort history you can control how people think you control how people view themselves and view their position in history and if people are being fed disinformation deliberate deliberate disinformation then they're being manipulated and I don't like seeing my people be manipulated and that's that's where it comes from for me you know I I I feel a moral and ethical obligation to spread you know information the best information that I can and of you know I make mistakes so you know you don't have to agree or don't just believe what I'm saying just because I'm it's me saying it you know look look into it and and here are the resources you know we provide citations and and resources and and we refer people to primary sources like here you know you don't have to agree with us because it's not just coming from us. You could look at the actual you know historical record the archaeological record and um and have the the information to make uh an educated uh form an educated opinion about these things so to me it's it's like an obligation just carrying on from you know the legacy that my mom left me of caring about my culture you know 46 years later I I've got to maintain that you know I I I can't just sit quiet while nonsense gets spread.
SPEAKER_05I've always been that way that's just like my uh my nature that's why nobody likes me no nonsense though is that what that's what's happening right now story bro I think I think for me I mean I I agree with with most of what uh curly saying there I might have some disagreements here and there I mean we all do and that's the point of like uh one of the things that we bring to the podcast is that we don't necessarily agree on everything.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if you've noticed we don't make a big deal about it but we do sort of bounce ideas back and forth and for me I think what's important here as well is this idea that people are being deceived into thinking that something is ancient when it really is not right and going back to this idea of wanting to get to the facts and wanting to know you know the truth and scare quotes right um as as a as a professor of history when I tell my students that in history we're not trying to prove anything. We know what the facts are use the facts use those sources to interpret that history and to say something substantive about it. Why is it important? Why does that specific story matter to us today in the present just because something happened in the past doesn't make it history. It's the way that we approach it the way that we interpret it that makes it history because it it it's something that is important to us. And so I feel that it's important for us as people who subscribe to this idea of indigenity as chicanos mexicanos that subscribe to Mexicayor or the red road or the tradición whatever moniker you want to give it that we are truthful and honest to the new people that are coming on board so that they don't get deceived into thinking that this is an unbroken tradition that dates back to the pre-invasion of the Spanish right so there's truth to the notion that traditions um you know have evolved since then it doesn't mean that they that they remain the same right because anything that stays static is going to stagnate and it's going to die. That's just a truism of life itself. And so to suggest and to try to imply to try to convince people that this thing that they're doing that they're being taught that they're being inculcated in is some unbroken untainted tradition that dates back to 500 years I think that's a disservice to the people and they should and and you should be honest enough and you should be to be able you should be able to to be honest with yourself as well as a person that's uh making these uh um pronouncements to say to those people that look we understand that our tradition when the Spanish came it did they did a lot of harm to our culture to our people to our society to our ways of life to our spirituality and we've tried to recover that over the years and this is the best that we've been able to do but to sit there and also say some ancient ancestor told such and such it's like well do you really know that how how accurate is that information and and why does that make it any
SPEAKER_03More meaningful or impactful or powerful.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, I mean we our history is is uh legitimate. It's fascinating and meaningful enough without you know, adding all of this extra stuff to it and making it more fanciful and more you know, deep, you know, oh man, you don't understand the way I see things. I have a very deep understanding of the world because this elder taught me this and he didn't get it from a book. It's like, are you sure? Because I've got a book that says that exact same thing. And uh, you know, it's it's it's just funny because people they got this idea that uh it's not meaningful unless you somehow ascribe some sort of magical thinking to it, or antiquity to it, or antiquity to it. Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the reasons that those people uh who are uh saying that we're sarcastic or what or whatever, maybe they're just picking up on the fact that Ruben and I have known each other for over 20 something years, and when we get together and we talk about things, we just we're friends, you know, we talk to each other the way friends talk to each other. We're yeah, and and that might come across as being um unprofessional, unprofessional or whatever, but hey, you know, I mean it's a freaking podcast, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm sure people, you know, it's like if you want serious stuff, read my read read my work, which I doubt you will do because it's too long and you don't want to, you know, spend five minutes reading stuff. So, you know, please get over yourselves.
SPEAKER_05Podcast.
SPEAKER_02If they want to read if they want serious stuff, then they can buy my book, buy my book, and so I think uh I mean it's the same kind of argument that I've heard from people on Twitter because on Twitter I'm I'm you know uh I'm I've I've always been uh not necessarily a clown, but uh I I like to poke fun at stuff and and and I and people can perceive that a wrong the wrong way. And so uh it's like I tell people, this is Twitter, what do you expect from me? I mean, you want me to publish my dissertation on Twitter? Come on, please.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and anybody who's known either of us for any extended period of time just knows our personalities, right? And I I tell people, like, hey, I I hate to break it to you, but if you're looking for like the deep spiritual elder, teacher, guru type, that I'm not I'm not that guy. Yeah, you know, I'm just myself. I'm not gonna play a character. I grew up the way I grew up. I have my opinions and the way I talk to people, and it just so happens that Ruben and I, you know, click really well, even when we disagree with each other, it's like it never comes to like uh you know, like an argument or anything. We we're able to to talk to each other and have disagreements, but we're still friends. And I think I think that's the the biggest lesson of all. Yeah. Knock them over the head. Yeah, yeah, not still make each other laugh and still have fun and still enjoy each other's company.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and not call them vendivos just because you disagree with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry about that, by the way. It was pretty riled up.
SPEAKER_05I uh really enjoyed the example that you guys that you put out about the young Nahua men uh who were uh creating new de los muertos uh traditions and dances.
SPEAKER_03Um in the Huasteca.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that see that that's the thing is I mean uh for full transparency, I'm not a historian, but what I am, uh I think more than anything is sort of a culture person, right? And really thinking about you know how culture is dynamic, right? How things, how things are always changing. It really interesting, you know, to think about those those young men creating those new traditions, right? And how everybody, you know, maybe so shocked and so mad at them, you know, right now, but 50 or 60 years from now, you know, if the the the full weight of whatever just kind of sets in and then it becomes the way that we've always done it, you know. And to to think about, you know, how that works. And and I think for myself, you know, I think about how much energy is wasted in the chicano movement, politically, culturally, emotionally, or whatever, by people saying, Oh, that's that's not the way we do it, or you know, you're you're wrong, or you know, just and it's just like it boggles me sometimes. Yeah, you gotta do it the Chicano way on the but which Chicano way, the Texas Chicano way, the uh Michigan Chicano way?
SPEAKER_02Well, that's that's the only true way, right? The Texas Chicano way.
unknownOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I have heard people say that, yes. Well, so um, and and that's one of the the things that people get hung up on is this uh this desire for antiquity without realizing that tradition, this dance in particular, it's very ephemeral. And all it takes is one person turns left once instead of right, and then they teach it that way. Yeah, well, now you turn left, and then now it's now it's changed forever. Yeah, but it's not any less significant.
SPEAKER_02One person to take the poposh comet, put it in the center of the dance arena, and put their foot over it and call it the fire dance or something. Yeah, that's technically what happened with that dance. You know, it wasn't a concerto tradition at all, it was invented by none other than who is it? That would be uh was that Florencio? Yeah, that was Florencio, yeah. That was his invention, and now you see it, it's a standard uh dance trope that you see most do in public uh appearances. It's like I've done it, they they get up there and you know they put they put the the incense burner and then they do this little dance and you know sing a little song and make a little noise.
SPEAKER_05That's funny. I guess part of my my question is is as I was listening to it, like I I was um I was taking in everything that you guys were saying, the way that uh you're exposing a lot of these ideas and these concepts, the whole discussion around ometeot, I mean, blew me away, man. Seriously, blew me away because I was just like, huh, because I would have never known any of that, right? And so it's uh because I mean, I I probably also wouldn't have taken the time to try to uncover it, you know. So I'm here, I'm listening. You had a moment uh where you were talking about uh traditions and um, you know, how you know all tradition is you know uh created, right? Which is you know obviously true. I guess my question is with with this particular podcast, knowing uh a little bit about both of you, is what what's the political goal of this of this podcast? World domination.
SPEAKER_03No, um the same thing we do every night, yeah. That's right, we do every day. Uh you know what it's just to uh uplift people people's standards really for because look, if you're willing to accept uh erroneous information uncritically, if you're willing to accept things uncritically, whether it's culturally or politically or whatever, right? Yeah, you can't question these things. So if we're I'm just trying to get people to to open up and and think more critically, look more critically at things, and that that just spills over because to have a Chicano identity, that's inherently political, right? That's inherently a political statement to say that you're a Chicano.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And if you're going to accept things uncritically, well, that's that's uh that's not any that's not good for anybody. So hopefully by presenting, like, look, hey, we're involved in this tradition, we are, you know, reasonably educated people, and we've come to these conclusions and we like, you know, question question themes. And that's just gonna spill over, you know, as a political goal. I don't know if we have any specific political goal, but I I would say that my personal goal is just to produce better informed Chicanos who are able to look at things critically and skeptically and and have uh uh you know the uh the ability to deconstruct things, uh, whether it's in the political realm, the cultural realm, spiritual, you know, whatever they want to do, just to be able to come at it from this perspective like, well, I don't have to believe this just because an elder says it, you know, because like I'm often reminded, you know, dumb people get old too, you know.
SPEAKER_02But but but curly, these are indigenous elders.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Doesn't that make a difference?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that cracks me up because people think like, well, just this this guy's uh a native speaker, so therefore everything he says about you know the culture is a hundred percent accurate. It's like, well, I'm a native English speaker, you know, it doesn't give me any sort of special insight into the English speaking world or the queen, Curly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know. But my question to you, Ernesto, is does it have to be political? I mean, why is there a need for um our approach to wanting people to at least know the origin of the things that they subscribe to? Why does that have to have a political angle to it? And what is like what is your interpretation of what we're doing?
SPEAKER_05Uh well, for the first part of the question, I would say that everything that we do is inescapably political, particularly as the descendants of uh conquered, colonized um indigenous people. I don't think that we really have or can take undertake actions that don't have some sort of uh political consequence or ramification.
SPEAKER_02You know, does that inherently make the thing that's being or the act that's being done just because there's a political consequence to that, does it make it inherently a political act? I yeah, where the consequence was applied to it.
SPEAKER_05I I would say that everything that we do is it has a a political context. Yes. Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_05I mean, that's that's what I would argue. That's how that's how I would answer that question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um I think that it is uh a particularly, I mean, if you if if you're uh involved in a project and you use the words culture, then you are you're committing a political act. Because remember, all culture is made up. I mean you guys said that in in the podcast, right? I mean, if we're talking about breathing or we're talking about taking a crab, but even taking a crab, man, it depends on which hand you wipe your butt with. You know what I'm saying? It is because if you try to shake hands with the wrong hand in certain places, you gotta so I mean, you know, I think that's one of the things that that has really struck me about this. And and the reason that that I asked the question is well, yeah, because I mean I I you know, to me, when I listen to this, what what I hear you guys uh really doing is one pushing people to think and pushing them to to question and and to be skeptical. All of all of these things that that were just said, my question, you know, and and what I'm thinking is, and I asked this question myself, what's what's the end goal of this, right? Like what if we if we're taking this information out to the community, okay, and we're saying, okay, look, these things right here, listen, here's here's five more ways that they fucking tricked us, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh sure. The end goal is to storm the Delgalis.
SPEAKER_03Okay. I I mean well, for me personally, the end goal is uh Ruben and I have talked about this a lot about this possible is there a way to reform this movement, right? And I'm not gonna, you know, be so bold as to say like yes, we are going to single-handedly reform this movement, but I think starting the conversation is important. And I I've had a lot of feedback on this uh the podcast.
SPEAKER_02And I bet you have. Before you get into it, does that also make us uh restorationists of a sort if we're trying to reform Eschikayo? Are we the latest iteration of all those restorationists? I mean, that's something to think about too. Yeah, we're the uh the latest iteration of Confederado Eskepticista plus or escepticista.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, yeah, we could be, but you know, who knows? Who knows what's gonna happen?
SPEAKER_02But you know, not everyone, not everyone that that's a mexica or follows mexica in the US is a chicano or uh or identifies as a chicano, yeah, right? So a lot of people in in my calpula here in Dallas, uh, a lot of those folks, even if they're native-born ethnic Mexicans, they don't necessarily subscribe to a Chicano identity. Yeah, right. These are people who are maybe half my age or you know, our age, whatever. And and they weren't brought up with this idea of thinking of themselves as chicanos, and so that's not even part of the equation for them. For them, it's this is a tradition that is you know, traces its roots to Mexico, to to indigenous people of what we consider Mesoamerica, and that has links to the the North through you know the legend of the Now we meet and the four arrow arrows that were shot in the four different directions, and that's how you bring in the Sundance, and that's how you can you know pick and choose from various indigenous traditions and to come up and create this new pan-indigenous spiritual approach to your own indigenous identity, right? And so it's even more complicated than just you know applying this to Chicanos because we have people from Central America, South America. I mean, at one point we had people in our group that were from um I want to say from South America, Guarani. Uh, I've met people who are part of the Mexicayo tradition in in the broader general sense who are Puerto Rican from the island, not from like a New York or from the states, right? But from like the island itself that that identify as boricuas and they have their own, you know, indigenous tradition, but they sort of latch on to Mexicayo because of the people that they know or what have you. So it's you know, it's it's more than just you know a politically charged uh identitarian spiritual movement of Chicanos. It's it's it's grown beyond that. It's way I mean, you have dansa groups in South America, you have dansa groups in Europe, in Spain, in Germany, and they're springing up all over the place. I mean, the latest one that I hear of, I think, is um there's a um Mechikayo red road tradition in Japan, right? So this is makes total sense though.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I was gonna say, of course there's uh of course there's a dancer group in Japan.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, you've you've all seen that video of the the Japanese cholos, right? Yeah, and they all have that they all love that Chicano identity. I was too.
SPEAKER_02They were publishing pictures of those guys back in the late 80s.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I told Lalo Alcaraz, I was like, bro, pretty soon Japan's gonna be the only safe place for Chicanos to go. Because the Latin Xers are coming for us.
SPEAKER_05I think that I I mean, obviously uh all that is true. I I don't think that it uh I don't think it diminishes the political um dimension of it at all. Um actually I think that it it um it it actually broadens the political dimension of it. But uh yeah, I I think that those are those are good points, man. I mean I think actually those are great points.
SPEAKER_02I would say that it's not explicitly political what we're doing, but it I guess you can apply political um uh you know you can you can attach it politically to different agendas if you wanted to.
SPEAKER_05Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I've been encouraged by the response from like old school veterano chicanos to like young cholos and everything in between, writing me letters, just uh uh emails, writing me letters, sitting down with a pen in a quill, um, you know, uh sending me messages on Facebook and and emails and stuff, just uh thanking us for putting this information out.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And just saying, man, this is so cool that you're saying this. Um, the older cats are like, I wish something like this existed when I was young, so I could hear alternative perspectives. I get some older cats who've written to me and they're like, bro, these are things that I've been questioning for a long time, but I've never wanted to bring up because uh of possible repercussions, right? Like friendships and yeah, it's like a religion.
SPEAKER_02It's like that the what's that project called uh where the priests are leaving, you know, they become atheists and then and they're trying to find a an escape from from their church.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's I mean, it almost sounds like that, you know. It's like you you you've done something for so long, for 20, 30 years, yeah, and you begin to question it at some point, and you know, you've invested so much time and effort and resources, and it becomes for some people, this is their livelihood. This is what they this is literally what they do to earn a living. They go around and you know, do you know ceremonies or or or limpias or what have you, right? And that's all they do. And they're not you know getting rich off of it, but that's what that's a source of income for them, right? Yeah, and I understand it if if you know if someone comes in and tries to challenge what they do, because you know, it's like any other religion, once you begin to challenge people's core beliefs, uh, it's like you're challenging their identity. Yeah, that's who they are, that's who they identify as. And for us as Chicano, Mexicanos, Mexicos to be questioning, you know, Mexicawa, even though you know we've both you know spent 20-something years, you know, practicing it and and engaging it to the fullest extent of our abilities, you know, that's you know, even even you know, for us to do that, it's it's like, how dare you? You know, you you're you're criticizing our culture, you're criticizing people who identify as indigenous, and it's opening the door for others to come in that already don't like us, and to have some, you know, you're giving other people ammunition to come again. It's like, no, it's like we're actually I think it's in the reverse. I think we're empowering people to know the truth so that when someone does come at them with facts, they can at least be aware of them and they're not like blindsided by something that they've never heard of before. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And we see that a lot with um because we, you know, in the Chicano community, we have a tendency to lionize our heroes, right? So you're not allowed to question um people, and it's the same thing with the mesh stuff. And for me, it's we're equipping people, right? Like Ruben just said, we're we're equipping them with better information so that when you know, because that that enables us to own it, right? We're the ones making the critique, we're the ones making the analysis. And so when our adversaries, people who are adversarial towards us, try to attack us, like Ruben said, it's not they're not, they're not getting hit out of nowhere. They they're already equipped with this information and they could say, Well, hold on, you know, you need to understand the context of what's going on, and they could defend the their position better having this information as opposed to, you know, well, we're we're not allowed to ever question this. And um, you know, so you just go along thinking, yeah, okay, I'm I'm I I learned this from an elder and I have all this authentic information. And then when they do get blindsided by somebody saying, you know, yeah, but what about the MCRCA? Yeah, but what about this? What about this guy? And and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about, you know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it's like I tell my students uh early on, especially my the students that take the first part of of US history, uh, and you know, we begin talking about indigenous people, the pre-invasion period, you know, the different societies that existed in North and Central and South America. And then once we get into the initial encounter, I tell students, how do you think that the Europeans were able to come to the Americas and initiate everything that came thereafter? And then you get the usual, you know, oh, Columbus, this, oh, you know, they had ships, uh, they have better equipment to, you know, better tools, better weapons, yada yada, yada. And I'm like, okay, perhaps. But what if we look at it in terms of our own current moment? What is our own current moment? We're in the information age. What benefited Europeans and the the way that they were able to arrive here first and as opposed to Americans arriving in Europe, you know, in the reverse, right? The reverse scenario is that they had better information. They had better information that they had acquired from, you know, peoples in Africa, people in the Middle East, people in in in the in the Far East and in, you know, places in Asia. And so they were pe when when Europeans finally arrived at a moment where they were able to traverse the globe on the on a on a ship, they had better information in general as opposed to our ancestors who had been isolated in in in these continents, you know, and they only had a certain amount of information. They were getting to that place. They were approximating the old world if you know to put it in those terms, but they were behind in information, technology, etc. Right. So it wasn't so much that the Europeans were better at anything than our ancestors. They just happened to benefit from having more information at a specific moment in time. Yeah. And so if we don't have today the descendants of those people that suffered because of that lack of information, if we're going to continue that process of being uninformed or misinformed, then we're going to be just as bad as they were. And and they and it happened to them because they didn't know.
SPEAKER_05And if it happens to us whatever happens to us because it's going to be because we we are willfully misinformed and and uninformed because we don't want to you know you know venture out and and and seek other alternative uh uh versions to the things that we already consider to be gospel right yeah it's part of the same the the same mentality that you have to question you know this I I got this from one of the elders who responded to me personally about the pocket yeah you have to question everything and this is coming from someone who's also you know been in the tradición for 40 50 years and and he agrees to that yeah that he might not agree with everything that we are saying or maybe he he doesn't um um know a lot of the stuff that we're you know uncovering uh but he agrees that we should question it at least yeah I know when I left church I decided I was never gonna go back it didn't matter what it looked like and so I mean I've I've stuck with that and I I I feel what you guys are doing like one uh like all the way down I feel it I've I've seen these conversations happen I've seen the finger pointing you know the the denunciation that comes along with it uh you know the the whole like spiritual thing I mean you know where like people are like I just know because like the spirit tells me and like this you know old guy told me or and I'm just like I'm like wow like I I can't I can't roll with that not for one second so I mean I I feel what I yeah I I feel what you guys are doing we're we're almost out of time you know I just want to give you both one last opportunity to you know uh say whatever it is that you want to about your about your podcast where people can catch it at you know anything like that um and I really appreciate both of you taking your time to come talk to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah thanks for having us yeah absolutely you could catch it on any of the major podcatchers I think it's uh you know iTunes Spotify Stitcher all that stuff um I'm a little behind but I've been trying to put them up on YouTube as well um some people like to listen I've it's funny I've I've actually had uh quite a few people message me and ask me like how do you listen to a podcast so you gotta educate people on how to interact with the with the technology too well just so you all know out there if you have an Alexa in your house you can tell Alexa to play Tales from Aslantis and uh I haven't tried the yours yet I know it does mine but mine is also on on on uh i iTunes so I think if it does mine it should probably do yours too sometimes it takes Alexis a couple of times but so you're putting up misinformation there brother I know right we we we've got some some some cool um um episodes um that are coming up uh there's one that's gonna drop next week uh we're not gonna tell you what it is you're just gonna have to uh wait and find out and we've got a lot more material uh it's not just gonna deal with necessarily um uh you know spirituality it's gonna also delve into things that that that are historical and we're also gonna bring it to you know more contemporary subjects that relate to giganism in general and and other adjacent topics so just the yeah I like that word adjacent topics there you go so it it allows us to explore outside of you know strictly mexikayot because the the cool thing about the mexikayot stuff is the further you dig into it you you figure out that these guys really had an influence on just about every single aspect s of of Chicano identity that you could find some connection to back in time to these to these original founders of the Mexicayot whether you want to admit it or not you know whether you know it or not because I didn't know this stuff for the longest time.
SPEAKER_03And uh you know when when you start learning it you know I always say I I don't want to compare myself to Malcolm X but I I can imagine how he felt when he realized that the nation of Islam was like a bunch of horseshit and just this feeling of of betrayal and dejection and like oh man what have I been doing and but then you know that's enabled me to kind of watch from the sidelines for a little bit and say okay well this is actually good you know this stuff this stuff is good this stuff not so good. And I'm I'm able to to have a more discerning eye you know and I think that's if we could equip people to even do that much just to look at it and be like well this that seems shaky but this has value. So what can we do with this? And you know and how can how can we convince other people to get rid of this other stuff that has no value and then focus more on on legitimate I don't even like using that word but more stuff that has value stuff that benefits our sense of who we are and our culture because I still go to ceremony you know I still do danza I enjoy it um I still go to ceremony I enjoy it but I don't do it for the same reasons maybe right that I was doing it before. Do it for the fellowship and the camaraderie and you know yeah and just like even the cult there is cultural continuity you know there. It's not as old as people might think but I like being part of that. Yeah you know because if you look at it hey powow isn't that old right Native American church isn't that old and they'll admit it you know they're not gonna go around saying powwow's been around for millennia like no yeah yeah and so the you know for us to look at Dansa and be like yeah this isn't as old as we thought it was but it's still it it has a tradition it has protocols it has a history it has things that that matter and it's legit yeah and it's enjoyable and uh it's part of who we are and we don't need to uh you know add add uh false history to it to make it better yeah to make it seem legitimate yeah so follow us on twitter at astlantistales and uh do you have um instagram for this curly i know you you do instagrams i don't i i mainly i mean i have an okay instagram following so i've just been using my my personal one to promote so just uh curly tlapoya instagram and twitter and my personali twitter is at tlakatekat and uh chimali.org is the website maybe you should spell tlakate cut yeah i think some of people don't know how to smell how do you spell that t l a k a t e k a t l tlakate cut all right guys thanks i appreciate it i'm looking forward to the next time this is the reality dysfunction
