Episode 21: Believe Native Women!

Believe Native Women!

On today's episode, we welcome our guest Ketzalitzli, along with special guest host Michelle Melendez, to talk about the need to believe and support women who come forward with claims of abuse. The discussion was sparked by the recent conviction of Danza leader Arturo "Pastel" Mireles.

"For years, former pupils of indigenous dance leader Arturo “Pastel” Mireles accused him of having taken advantage of his position with the California-based Danza Mexica Cuauhtemoc organization to sexually abuse them as children in the late 1980s and early 1990s. But after watching Mireles escape justice for years, the victims finally saw the tide turn in their favor when prosecutors in Los Angeles charged Mireles in 2019 with seven counts of lewd acts upon a child and one count of continuous sexual abuse of a victim under the age of 11. He was arrested in Nogales on Oct. 18, 2019 and later extradited back to California to face the charges. Then on Wednesday, Mireles pleaded guilty to three felony offenses. He was immediately sentenced to a total of 20 years in California state prison and ordered to register as a sex offender, according to Ricardo Santiago, spokesman for Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office.”

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:37

You must, excuse me, I've grown quite where this hasn't been easy. I know, but you've learned a lesson, a lesson, an honesty, honesty to yourself, honesty to others. That lesson will stand you in good stead all your life. I think we've all learned a good lesson. I've always heard that honesty is the best policy now, eye catching out and why that's so why that's so

Speaker 2: 1:08

Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to another episode of tales from ocelot. This I am your host Kerley.[inaudible] joined by my cohost Ruben[inaudible]. And for today's episode, we have a special guest host. Michelle Melinda's. Michelle is a former journalist, a public health professional, and a founding member of the Chimalli Institute of Mesoamerican arts. Hello, Michelle,

Speaker 3: 1:38

Good afternoon listeners and curly and Rubin and our guests

Speaker 2: 1:42

On today's episode, we're going to be talking about a problem within the Danza community in particular and within indigenous revitalization movements in general. And that is the tendency to uphold leaders of these movements as if they were infallible beings, um, and sort of looking at them through these rose colored glasses, through these romanticized visions of what elders are of what leaders are, and this tendency not to hold them accountable for their actions. And this is something that we're talking about because as anybody involved in danza and the Danza community knows, recently a man named Arturo pastel Mirella's was convicted of numerous crimes involving sexual abuse. And we have a story here from Nogales international.com. Um, Michelle, if you would be so kind as to read from the story,

Speaker 3: 2:52

Sure, the story was printed November 11th, 2021. So we're talking about two years ago and it says for years, former pupils of indigenous dance leader, Arturo pastel, Mireles accused him of having taken advantage of his position with the California based[inaudible] organization to sexually abuse them as children in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the allegations followed me there less when he moved to Nogales, where he found a home at the[inaudible] academy charter school as an educator and central figure in the schools affiliated Azteca dance group. But after watching Mireles escape justice for years, the victims finally saw the tide turn in their favor. When prosecutors in Los Angeles charged Mireles in 2019 with seven counts of lewd acts upon a child and one count of continuous sexual abuse of a victim under the age of 11. He was arrested in Nogales on October 18th, 2019, and later extradited back to California to face the charges. Then on Wednesday, Mirelespleaded guilty to three felony offenses. He was immediately sentenced to a total of 20 years in California state prison in order to register as a sex offender. According to Ricardo Santiago, spokesman for Los Angeles county district attorney's office, meta is now 69 pleaded guilty to one count of continuous sexual abuse and two counts of lewd acts upon a child. The crimes to which he pleaded guilty happened from 1988 to 1991 Santiago said. A group called LA Los gamete short for Los Angeles committee for defense of sacred and safe spaces, which had long sought justice on behalf of the victims posted news of the plea deal and sentencing to its Facebook page on Wednesday, along with the photo of me that lists seated in what appeared to be a courtroom wearing headphones, a mask, and what seemed to be a blue jail uniform, five survivors gave public impact statements, and we hope this offers them and other survivors, some justice and healing. It was unclear how long Mireles had been living in Nogales before his 2019 arrest, but he was employed for a number of years at Mexikayotl academy. Uh, Nobel is based K through eight charter school at the time of the arrest school director, but the side Garcia and principal Veronica Paso's Garcia refused to answer questions about Mirele's relationship with Mexikayotl, though they later issued a written statement saying that his contract was terminated in 2015. They did not confirm his hire date or Joel Garcia, an advocate for LA. Those told the Nogales international at the time that one of the alleged victims reached out to Michigan officials upon learning that may there Les had been hired at the schools Nogales campus, but he wasn't sure what the school's response had been at the time. LA also posted a letter to its website that was reportedly sent to the Arizona department of education in 2003, by an organization called[inaudible], which alerted the ADE to the allegations against me to list in the letter. The organization said it had notified Michigan academy of the allegations in August, 2000. The written statement issued by Garcia and parcels Garcia in October, 2019 said Michigan academy follows all state and federal laws and internal policies as part of our employment process. It is always been the school's policy to investigate all allegations pertaining to employees. The school followed all policies throughout our [inaudible] employment. That's the standard, uh, kind of statement that a lawyer writes for anyone under this kind of questioning.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Yeah, no joke. So joining us today is Elena Estrada also known as Ketzalitzli, and if Ruben you'd be so kind as to introduce our guest please.

Speaker 4: 7:38

Sure. So Elena[inaudible] Estrada is a graduate student at north central university where she studies health psychology and public health. She was born and raised in St. Paul Minnesota and has participated in various social and cultural organizations throughout her life. She has been involved in community programs, teaching art and native crafts to youth and has been engaged in issues that affect women. Elena is a poet and artist a craftsmaker and a lifelong community activist. She was also actively and intimately involved in dance Azteca in the Mashika community for about 10 years from between the years, 2000 to 2009 Elaina's current projects focus on promoting health and wellness programs for indigenous women in her local community. She was also a member of the Mexika Eagle society, our old organization that promoted Mexika identity, Mexikayotl practices and indigenous resistance action. Welcome to the show.[inaudible]

Speaker 5: 8:48

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3: 8:51

Yes. Welcome gets a lately. Um, where did you get your name? That's a very beautiful name.

Speaker 5: 8:59

So, um, in Minnesota, we have, we had, during the time I was with Dan much, she could put them up. We had a ceremony for church at Lakeway and at that ceremony, a few of us received a no warning. So I've carried that one for a while.

Speaker 3: 9:15

Um, can you tell me what it means?

Speaker 5: 9:20

You know, I can't even really tell you it's the long, the long version challenge tickets. And so from what I was told, um, it's like it has to do with the underground water. Great. Thank you. Next spring water.

Speaker 4: 9:36

Nice. Could, could you tell us a little bit about the dancer group that you were involved with? Uh, like what, um, uh, it was a part of[inaudible], uh, in, in the California or was it its own thing?

Speaker 5: 9:49

So, yeah. Um, it was, uh, it was, uh, a chapter of the, the LA dancer group. So what happened was pastel and his people came up to Minnesota and at that time there wasn't dancer in the north. We didn't have any groups at all. It was like brand new. Um, and so they introduced answer to the north in Minnesota in those areas. We didn't have anything like that before they had came to our community. Um, and so it was pretty, pretty brand new and they kind of established herself in the twin cities where, where I lived.

Speaker 4: 10:26

Cool. Do you remember the year? That was,

Speaker 5: 10:30

Um, a long time ago, probably in the early two thousands. It was low. It was, it was a long time ago. My, like, I still had kids in diapers and now they're in their twenties. So yeah, it was quite

Speaker 4: 10:46

Excellent.

Speaker 3: 10:47

I think the bio says 2000 to 2009 and that's around the same time I was in a group. And, uh, I've been out of not the same one that you were in, but, um, out of it for a little while, you know, still affiliated, but I'm not actively participating, but I'd love to hear some of what drew you originally to the circle and what you learned. What, what good parts did you take away from that?

Speaker 5: 11:15

So, like I was saying, I'm in, before[inaudible] establish itself in the twin cities, there wasn't anything like that in our community at all. And so it was really refreshing because prior to that, you know, we were all under this blanket of Hispanic, Latino identity. And so it was very difficult, you know, especially growing up as a kid, you know, being bullied at school or told what we are, what we're not in my family is, um, predominantly in the west side of St. Paul, very widely known, like my grandfather always had told us about, you know, our indigenous roots. And so like my aunt, her name is Dolan scene and that was like, she's in her forties before it was, um, common practice to have people with now what names. And so like, that was where we came from. So it was refreshing to be like out of that umbrella, um, you know, having to claim Hispanic identity and being able to, to claim what I am. And so that was, that was nice to have that, you know, like-minded people coming to our community. Um, and it was, it was beautiful because we were able to ourselves, you know, in a good way outside of the church as well.

Speaker 3: 12:35

So in those early days, uh, what was it like to be practicing Danza, practicing ceremony and just learning about how to operate in the circle and learning all the parcels and everything.

Speaker 5: 12:49

So in the very beginning, it was mainly about dancer. It was all about, you know, learning, you know, the, the steps learning dances. We didn't even really get taught very much about what they meant or what the stories were behind. It, it was just, I would, I would classify it as a dance shoe. You just learned the dancer, you learned like protocols, how to, you know, do certain things like, you know, make your friends, you know, but there wasn't a lot of teaching there wasn't history involved. We didn't have songs, we didn't have language involved. It was just dance that's solely what it was about, but we did also have a growing community that was built, um, throughout that soul. Like we, instead of like just having a practice, we would also be involved with each other's, you know, outside of that sort of like in our community, we'd be at each other's houses. We'd have, you know, times where we have picnics or barbecues or stuff like that. We were really connected. And that was what brought me into that, that group.

Speaker 3: 14:20

And you were saying something about the protocols, so, you know, some groups you always go to the left, some sometimes all to the right, you know, there's all these protocols that different, uh, bullies teach their members and then you have to learn how to work within other cult police if somebody else is calling the dancer. So tell us a little bit about, um, what it's like to be taught those kinds of their rules, right? Their ways of following, so that you become one organism, so to speak in the, in the circle. Um, what was that like?

Speaker 5: 14:56

Um, for the most part, it wasn't, it wasn't bad. Like, I, I felt like it was, it kept us together, kept us all on the same page. Um, you know, how to ask permission to enter into the NASA so that you're not interrupting the circle, um, how to ask permission to, to, to lead the circle if you needed to. Um, but it was, it was, it was, it felt very organic. Like it felt very natural to be in that space.

Speaker 3: 15:27

I was just wondering, like, what you, not, what you think, how that leads to following something that may not seem right or what that must do to young people. If they think that they're supposed to follow a certain way and yet they feel something is wrong. So can you tell us a little bit about when you started noticing something didn't feel right?

Speaker 5: 15:53

Yeah. So in, like I said, in the beginning, when I first came into the dancer, Michigan, um, I was going through a divorce. I had been through a really bad situation. This was a way for me to develop a new community, start over. I was a single mom. I had little ones and have like a support system because before that, I didn't, I didn't, it was like by myself, I didn't have anybody to support me. And so here I went from, you know, being this, you know, single mom woman that had already experienced domestic violence, and now I'm coming into something that felt good, you know, like I'm supported, I have people that I can talk to. I'm not afraid anymore. Um, but you know, coming from that background, I kind of noticed certain things like, kind of felt different. Um, for example, you know, my family has always been, you know, very strong in our community. We're one of the largest families in west St. Paul, my grandmother was in politics and heavy into the church and always doing community activism. So this is how I was raised, you know? And so one of the things I noticed and that's a miracle is they were always doing, um, but like always going to the next and the next one, the next one, like some days we would, we would be out all weekend to the next one, to the next one, always doing presentations. And I know they were getting donations and, or they were getting a lot of money from us presenting. Um, but then here we were like, you know, we, you know, struggling, you know, as individuals and struggling. Um, but it was always like, kind of to a point where if you don't show up, you know, you're kind of letting everybody else down and kind of that kind of made me feel like, okay, so my needs are secondary to the circle. And so like, my kids are hungry, but we got to go to this. We gotta go, we gotta go hurry up. Um, the second thing that I noticed too, was that there was a lot of, um, favoritism. So when it comes to like learning new things, um, the people that held the knowledge were very, very selfish about it. They didn't want anybody else to know how, how things work, like how you're supposed to do things. And when you were questioning them whole, they had the Supreme knowledge, right. So who are you to ask them? Like, who are you to interfere? Um, one of the things I did find, like what kind of set me apart was, you know, I did go into the Michigan Eagle society. And so I had this outside influence. Right. And I have these other people telling me different things. And so I go back to that sound like, Hey, yo, but you know, I'm hearing other things. And they were like, that's not the real way. And I'm like, but who told you what the real way is anyways? Like who gives you the authority? And so a lot of, at that time, when I started to question that authority, that's when I started to feel ostracized in the community. And like, you know, they would do subtle things, like take away your cargo or tell you you're not allowed to speak at any of our, in any of our birthdays. And I was actually sanctioned for a year. I was not able to speak for a year. So

Speaker 3: 19:09

Listeners who don't know some of these terms, what's a gargle or what's about Daya.

Speaker 5: 19:14

So, but the idea is it's like a battle we go in redo or it's the presentation is really what it is. We go, we get invited to some places to dance. And so, or we might be invited to like a March. Um, we might be invited to, to go do a presentation. So, um, but they call them. But because we number we're going into paddles and I've got to go, uh, cargo is like, um, it's like a, something that you hold, like you become a teacher of a cer of a specific thing. Like you might hold a gargle, teaching the drum, or you might hold a cargo of holding like a practice, like you're in charge of that. So you're basically the teacher of a specific area. Or you might have like, be in charge of the armaments, like the outfits, handing them out feathers, different things. Um,

Speaker 3: 20:13

Oh, I'm just struck by that experience that you had, it was pretty different from mine are[inaudible] the leader of our group used to tell us, question everything, question, everything I say and, you know, go and read, go and talk to people, go and do it differently. And if it works for you, come back and follow. And if it doesn't, you know, discard it, and that has always stayed with me, but it was like totally questioned everything, including what he said. So I know it's going to be group.

Speaker 5: 20:48

Yeah. I think in the beginning we were, we were seen as like, it was, it kind of struck me as very militant and that somebody should go put them, like you have your business. And they were the ones that told you what to do. And we were the students and this, and like every, there's like a hierarchy of how they operated. Um, and so like, of course, when you come back and be like, Hey, I read this book, you know, they're like, well, that's not real. Like we have lineage and we have this and they will try to justify what they were saying. But you know, to me, it didn't make sense. Like, one of the things that they talked about was, for example, only women were able to create their there, but then why were the men touching it? And so I would ask them like, okay, so if the women are responsible to create this whole Frenda, then why are you telling me what to do and not trusting my instincts? And so it would be like, well, then you're not supposed to question me. And so it was a very big conflict, you know, we, you, you could do it, you could do it, but then, you know, you might have one of the men come in and rearrange it and it's like, well, then what's the point. You just kind of totally took away your own teaching and negated that teaching. So then when I questioned that, you know, it would be kind of under like low key, you know, punishment. Like now I'm not invited to this organization or now, um, I'm not going to be advanced to the next level or, you know, you're not allowed to speak. You can't have,

Speaker 3: 22:22

But it sent a message to you. And where did they derive this authority? You say they, and it was men. Did they derive it from an elder or the heifer or,

Speaker 5: 22:31

Yeah, I've never, I've never learned where they came, came up with that because in my family, like I said, we we've been a prominent family in the west St. Paul, especially in the indigenous community. And so my grandmother had a very loud voice. She was really into the community and people listened to her. And so when I was with that group to be a woman and not be able to speak out, that was a very big culture shock to me. Like, but you're DASA, you're, you're part of us. How do you not know the value of women's words? Um, and it came from the says, like, um, from the top people that were, that were there. Um, and even when that person was removed, you know, because we got after him about how he was treating the women, the next person that came in was pretty much just his mouthpiece. So he was like, he did what he was told.

Speaker 3: 23:30

Well, so the experience of women can be very, very, uh, overly dominated, right. By some of that male dominance, which is very different from what our normal experiences as strong Chicano women, speaking of limited lineage, you know, like we come from a history of women, warriors, women who kept our families going and kept traditions alive for all these years. So Rubin, you're talking about going Jerry smooth. This might be a, uh, a connection to that tradition.

Speaker 5: 24:18

I'm not really sure if it was. I know that, um, during the time, like later, later on in the years, as other nonsense circles started to spring up around the twin cities, there work on shadows that were dancing, that we would, we would go support them. They would come support us, but we were very different from, from there. I don't know the honesty, honestly, where God is, lineage is still a, to me. They always said we got it from the most descendants. And I'm like, okay, but there's no proof of any of that. Um, and it wasn't really questioned, you know, when pastel came to Minnesota, he brought it with him and he brought that authority with him. And no one questioned him. You know, when he came up, he had an extreme presence with people. He was very good at speaking. He was very good at presenting. Um, whenever he came into town, the practicals were filled. Like we couldn't even move it. You know, we couldn't even move with there's so many people that came up and, and he was, he had a very strong presence. And so no one questioned his authority or where he got his lineage or where he got his teachings from. It just was accepted without question, that would be highly problematic if he started to abuse that authority. Correct. Which is what brings us here today. Go ahead and curly.

Speaker 2: 25:48

Yeah. So it seems like, like you were saying, when you have somebody who's very charismatic who has a big presence, who seems to know all of these things, right? Like they, they hold all of this knowledge and they're held at such high esteem that it makes it incredibly difficult to call them on anything. Right. If in any impropriety, any improper behavior, any, anything they do that is, you know, if anybody else had done something, they would be called out on it. But when you have somebody who's in this position of authority, people are really, really hesitant to, uh, to call them out or just even pointed out. Right. And unless it's just amongst each other, right. In the whispered, you know, privacy, Hey man, what was going on with, you know, I saw him do this, or I heard about this, but it's never brought up, uh, vocally. Did you, did you, had you heard anything about what was being alleged in, uh, in Los Angeles?

Speaker 5: 26:54

Um, we didn't hear anything about any of this until I think when it first, when, when it first popped off on Facebook, um, with the allegations that were happening in LA and to us in Minnesota, like there was, there was no indication. We didn't, I never seen anything like any impropriety. Um, but my question was, why would any woman want to subject yourself to the being ostracized by the community to being ridiculed, to having all of these negative impacts? Why would you do that for no reason? And so my immediate, my immediate thought was, if they're saying this happened, then it must be true because I know just from small things that, that happened when I was in called demo and getting that ostracism, like you can't have a gargle and you can't speak for a year that hurts. That hurts, you know, especially when you're relying on that community. So when it, when a woman comes and puts herself, like basically in a firing squad, you believe it because why else would she say something? If it wasn't true, she's going to put herself in such a vulnerable position. Um, but when I did see like the times that he would come up, I know there was a lot of people that flocked to him. Um, we always had these huge events and he seemed, he didn't seem like he was doing anything wrong. The only thing that I noticed that he was allowing, um, negative behaviors from other men in the dust. So like when we were calling out, um, these men, like, you're not, you know, like one of the things I would say is like, Hey, you're not my dad. You're not my husband. You're not allowed to speak to me just any kind of way, just because you're a, bio-based have respect, you know? And that would get just kind of like, you know, whitewashed or something. Like, I, you know, I would make, be made to seem like I'm the one overreacting. And like, no, I know how, how people should be speaking to me. And that's not how people should be speaking to me. You know? And when these services are yelling at you or talking bad to you, you know, you right away, it's like, Hey, back up, who are you to me? You know, you're a God and stuff that circle, but you're not in authority to be talking to me like that. And I know that they would kind of like, make it, make it be lit, like minimize it, make it seem like it was small. Like, you know, Hey, you know, he was probably just really this or that. Or, you know, like make excuses for that behavior. Yeah. And then, and then say, well, you know, you guys have been doing a lot of dots done. It's really hard for you. And you know, you're under a lot of stress and make it seem like I'm the one we're overreacting. Like, you know, like my dad doesn't talk to me like that. Where are you to talk to me like that? And so we didn't see any like outright abuse or I didn't see any outright abuse, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happy. You know? It doesn't mean it wasn't happening

Speaker 3: 30:02

The women. So just in your heart of hearts, you know, that people don't say those things with, cause there are consequences come out publicly, you lose community, you lose friends, you lose lots of potential things and people don't take that lightly.

Speaker 5: 30:19

Yeah. Without a doubt, without a doubt. As soon as I heard those, you know, being that, like I said, I have a background of domestic violence and sexual abuse and I know how hard it is to come out and talk about these things because immediately we're told, you know, what w why did you stay? Why did you do that? What did you do? Make him mad? What were you wearing? Why did you go over to his house? What were you drinking? Like, it's always our fault, you know, instead of why did that man abuse you, you know, and we're as victims. You're not always given that support. You know, we're all, you know, sometimes we have that, you know, come back on us. And so a lot of women don't report it. I never did. I would never re you know, when I was a young woman before I knew that I never reported anything, because there's a fear there that keeps you from wanting to, you know, let everybody know. And then plus there's shame. You know, you feel that sense of shame that, you know, what did I do? Why did, why did this happen to me? And it's hard to process. And so when a woman comes out in a very public way to a very prominent person who everybody likes, who has created this image of himself, that is so grandiose, you know, you're going to get some kind of backlash. And so immediately when that happened, I was like, she's not lying. They're not lying because there are so many people that are going to come after her now. And so when sh, when those women in LA had said that right away, I was like, you know what, I'm not going to support Busta immediately. That was, there was no question. Did all that news and the allegations start many, many years before he finally got charged. Yeah. I believe there was, there was allegations. There was rumors prior to all of that, that happened. Um, I do know he was in Nogales. I do know about the school. Um, I have several friends that have had been in the Minnesota Danza that went down to Nogales and was working with him down there. Um, and so, you know, there was a lot of things like they were, they were supposedly doing really good things. Um, but there were rumors like, you know, um, certain things like, uh, for example, um, infidelity, but we never thought it would be something with a child. You know, we, we heard things like, uh, that he was married to his wife, but having affairs. And so that was different. And so to me, it was kinda like, well, if it's consensual adults, that's nothing that, it's none of my business that shouldn't be, you know, I, who am I to say anything about that, but there was never any rumors about it being children or under age or vulnerable adults,

Speaker 4: 33:26

If I may. Um, I just want to thank you concisely for coming to the show and speaking your truth and telling us about your experience and your connection to the story. Um, the only thing that I would add to this, uh, you know, I've, I've met a few of on this, uh, from California over the years. And, and this, like you were saying, there's been rumors going on for awhile, that there was some impropriety in some very problematic behavior with this person, uh, pastel, uh, but nothing had ever been conclusively, I guess, uh, proven, uh, until recently, right. And when he was finally charged and convicted, but going back to your story and your connection with, with, uh, your bouncer group and the men in that group and their association with Bustelo and how bustles behavior contributed to the men in the group that you belong to, to behave a certain way towards women in general. Um, I wonder, you know, going back to something that, that curly said at the beginning, this idea that we give people who are considered leaders or elders in the[inaudible] a little too much credit, um, as if they're infallible right, as if they can do no wrong. And I know for a fact here in Texas, we've also had our share of individuals who over the years, there's been rumors about things that they have done. I don't know if anyone's ever been charged or credibly accused about anything, but some of these people are now world travelers. They go to central America, south America, Europe, and, you know, they present themselves as elders of the Mashika tradition, mushy coyote, and they whole ceremonies and all this stuff. And you're sitting back here thinking, well, aren't you accused of doing this, that and the other. And so there's a history of that. And, and I have a, you know, a connection to something, um, that occurred with a, um, uh, you know, someone that I used to be with a long time ago. You know, we were, we were together for many years and we came into the Lonza together. And, um, I remember, uh, some of the first, uh, indigenous, uh, elders, uh, that came up here to, to Dallas, um, were, you know, put up on a pedestal, right? And we, we see a lot of that happen in a tradition. We put up these indigenous people that come in and teach us things on this pedestal. And, and there was rumors back then, uh, about some of the things that they were doing behind the scenes, including with my, my ex partner. Like she, she told me that she felt uncomfortable by some of the actions of some of these individuals and nothing was ever done about it. Because, you know, like you said, there, there's this perception that if you say anything, you're, you're going to be ostracized or not believed or castigated in some way. And so this is, this is not something that's new. This isn't just particular to pasta. This is, um, something that is, uh, pervasive within the bouncer community and, you know, indigenous communities in general, not just[inaudible], but just indigenous communities in general. And I think it's something that isn't really talked about enough. So I just wanted to thank you for sharing that and letting you know, allowing us to be able to discuss this.

Speaker 5: 36:45

The one thing I do want to make clear, um, it was very few people that were acting out abusively in the circles. The majority of the people amazing, amazing community. We had a lot of support, male and female nations. We, we had a lot of beautiful people. It was very small few people in that as a circle that manipulated throughout the rest of us. And, you know, once that kind of, you know, started breaking apart, you know, we had, we started to grow. We started to have a huge, huge following. Um, and we started to progress from Danza. We went into developing language, developing history, developing, uh, songs and outside of just the, the dance itself. Um, but once those very few people, you know, started to take over, um, in a negative way, you know, a lot of the positive people we fell away were weren't going to deal with that. And so the women's circle fractured off, um, a whole family that, you know, it was amazing people, there are super amazing there they're still dancing today. They went their separate ways and, and created a different, a different circle. And so from that collective, a lot of different circles kind of broke off and made their own way. Um, and in Minnesota no longer exists, you know, and th those few people that had, um, made it difficult for the rest of us, they're no longer part of the communities anymore. And so, you know, I don't want it to, to make it seem like that's the Michigan as a whole was abusive or negative. And there was a lot of men in the group that were very supportive, very loving, very caring, caring. They would hold their babies and take care of us and make sure we were okay and fed. And, you know, and, and so I don't want to take away from that positive movement that those men had, you know, instilled as well, um, because they were our protectors and they did do do good things for us, but it was like a handful of them that made it all go, go downhill. And in that handful was able to fracture the entire community.

Speaker 3: 39:12

No, thank you. For that, that perspective. That's why I was asking there was good things that had to have come out of you being part of that particular circle and then subsequent lemons, and that violation of trust shouldn't define the entire experience. Um, and of course it makes sense that there are predators among us throughout society. So why wouldn't they be within any cynical or, you know, I mean, of course that's unfortunately going to happen, but how do we, who are participating in that sort of, uh, environment find the ways to step up? How do men, especially who are witnessing what's going on, or have any inkling that this is happening intervene for the safety of individuals. And, um, you know, that can still be learned and taught today because there are still young people and amble older, and, you know, all of us being introduced to these ways as a way of trying to reclaim our history, our indigeneity, and a form of community that has been missing. So what could they learn about these experiences so that they don't replicate this kind of bad behavior in this kind of circling up to protect, uh, an abuser, even if they are the so-called elder or have their copy down of, uh, of a dancer, you know, that you don't attribute all this mystical infallibility to a person that they could just be human, and it could just need to be held accountable for behaviors that are not acceptable, not in any community. So I think it takes all of us women and men to stand up and call that out and not let the person who has been the victim or the survivor we should say, uh, take all of the risk. You know, what would, what would it look like if the whole community came together and said, no, this isn't right going forward. You know, that's still very valid.

Speaker 5: 41:25

I think that, that, that was one of the reasons why I left[inaudible] and keep in mind. I left long before any of these allegations came out, um, back in 2008 and 2009. Um, but I, I recall, you know, I had a conflict and then I left the dancer and then, you know, I asked to come back because my sisters were still dancing there and I wanted to dance with my sisters. That's my family, those are my blood. And they had me in this chair and centered in the middle of like, it felt like I was on trial. They had five people lined up all around me of the[inaudible] and I'm sitting seated in the center of them having to defend myself for why I was so hostile, I guess, sick towards this person. And I was like, whew, I'm hostile because he, you know, I'm defending myself, he's not allowed to talk to me. Like, like he's talking to me and he's not allowed to treat me the way he's treating me. And they had to vote for me to be able to come back to the circle and dance. But I was told that I would not be allowed to wear any colors like I couldn't wear, or I had to be all in white. Uh, all of the things that I earned throughout my time were taken away and I was told I was not allowed to speak for a year. And that was the price I paid for speaking out against somebody that was verbally abusing me in public, in the middle of a ceremony in front of everybody. And I was like, that cannot happen. That's not that shouldn't be happening. You know? And one of the things that I had expressed was that, you know, regardless of what permission you may want to give me, you can't take away that this is my birthright, and this is who I am. And my family has been here long before that someone she ever came to our town and we're still here. And so, you know, those traditions in those ways and, you know, just basically even questioning history and like all the different things that they were teaching us, we all have different lineages and we don't have to be like this super spiritual people. We are human beings. And that gives us validity, even if we don't have 3000 years of, you know, direct lineage. And we're, you know, we're not super people, we're not super beings. And, you know, if I make a song, my song is valid because I'm making it, it doesn't have to have like historical value for it to be valid. And so, you know, that's one of the things that I feel needs to be put out in the community is that, you know, we're here, your art, your words, your poetry, your, your new dancer, your, your new puzzles, those are all valid. We don't have to like have this, the sacred, it comes from quote them Oak and his mandate and all this stuff in order for it to be valid in our community know, because we created it. It's valid. Exactly.

Speaker 3: 44:32

And there are some who claim to, you know, inherited this, who made it up in the first place. I think, as we've heard from some previous episodes,

Speaker 2: 44:45

Well, I just want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing the story with us. And, um, talking to us, taking your time to talk to us about all of these things. I just, you know, when I, I picture that in my head of you sitting in a chair in front of all these people that are pat like passing judgment on you at seems like such a betrayal of the people who were supposed to be the, the leaders and the teachers, right. They're supposed to be the ones taking care of this circle in this community. And to lake victim blame is essentially what they're doing. Like casting it on, putting the ownness on, on, on you, instead of say, taking this person aside and being like, Hey man, why are saying all these things about you? What are you doing? What's your problem? You know, you need to shape up. Um, I just, I can't imagine that happening that must've been a, a really bad experience.

Speaker 5: 45:43

I think in hindsight, it, it was more than, um, I don't think I don't blame any of those people that were holding the therapist. I think it was more, this is what they were told the processes. You know what I mean? Like, you know, when you have like, our community had nothing, no, that's no tradition, no foundation. You have someone come up and say, this is how our community and the ethnic people did things. So they thought that this is how it was. And so the traditional ways this is, and so it was more, I feel like it was more, um, ignorance versus, you know, malice on their part because they were told that, you know, this is how, how our, our community and our society functioned, but that's not necessarily true

Speaker 4: 46:37

When, when you understand that the non SaaS that got historically emerged from the Concerta and then dental Mashika emerged from the[inaudible], there's a, there's a lineage there, a historical evolution of the dancer and the non second Chera. I mean, those, those people that, that, that, you know, are part of that tradition and people that know about it, understand that it's, it's a hierarchical tradition. And then that's the stake of borrowed, a lot of that sort of military aesthetic. And there's reasons for that, uh, that we're not going to get into in this episode. Um, but, uh, it kind of reminded me when you were talking about being placed in the middle of the circle, sitting down in a chair and everyone's casting judgment on you and you're being stripped over your rank. I mean, going back to this idea of the military and the hierarchy kid, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm former army, uh, guy, and, and, uh, it kinda reminded me of being court-martialed you're, uh, you're in the captain's office and, and, uh, you have all the, the, the higher ranks there and the officers, and they're all castigating you and passing judgment on you. And you're being stripped of rank and you're being docked pay and all this stuff. And so that's, I mean, that was kind of playing that movie back and I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, it brings back memories. Good times.

Speaker 5: 47:53

It was terrible. And, you know, the thing is, um, I seen the faces of the people that were sitting there and they didn't want to be there any more than I did. And I, you know, I seen like, they're were like, oh my God, why are we doing this? And I could tell that they felt it was wrong just as much as I felt it was wrong, but the authority is telling us that this is how it is. And so they all played their part. And I played mine, you know, and I was like, well, you know, if this is what we have to do in order to stay in the data and that, you know, they make the rules, we didn't get to choose that until we chose to leave and make our own groups and go into our own ways. And now current present day, there are a lot of different groups in Minnesota. Like all of, all of them, you know, they're, they, they all laid foundations in, in, in good ways and, and created a lot of different groups. And so now it isn't just one group holding all the strings. Now, if you don't like this tradition, you can go here. You, you're not going to be left in the cold without having a community there's, you know, so there is some good that came out of that, you know, with a lot of people that took what they learned in the positive things that they learned and created something better and continued in that community. And so I'm really proud of them, you know, that they were able to continue learning and growing and making things happen. Um, despite the fact that there's a few people that made it hard for us,

Speaker 3: 49:25

That seems like the beauty of it all is that, um, you know, the seed was planted and, uh, nurtured in the right ways. It can grow into something that the original planter doesn't even know. Right. Um, but like, how do we cultivate environments where young people, especially young women can speak up and ask questions and not be shut down, or, uh, afraid to question the origins of things, you know, where the authority comes from, because we don't want to lose the idea that you can build a community and try to find that knowledge that has been passed down, um, and, you know, create the conditions where you can have that and an environment where you can ask questions and quest, even question people who are telling me something that either you don't understand, or you just you've heard other things and to not be shut down or ostracized. And I think that really leads back to that conversation about this feeling that we have, the elders know everything, and that we know nothing wondering if curly wants to talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 50:37

Well, you know what I say about elders, sometimes we confuse, uh, elderly with elder, you know, are these people elders, are they just older? And that's one thing that I learned early on the first time I questioned somebody. In fact, I think it was, uh, our copy tan who told me that he's like, are they elders? Or are the olders just because they're older than you doesn't mean that they're, they have access to some sort of knowledge that you don't, you know, and we've all got egos. Right. Um, so I, I think a big part of solving this or trying to solve this, creating a, an environment where we can ask questions is we all need to put our egos in check and just realize like, Hey, I don't know everything. You know, that's, everybody asks, ask questions, question everything I say, and if I'm wrong. And I think that's the, the strength just personally of being a scientist is if I'm wrong, well, I don't want to be wrong. You know, I don't want to go around saying the, the wrong stuff. If, you know, if you know that I'm wrong and you have better information, then please share it with me. It might hurt my feelings. It might make me feel dumb or bruise my ego because I've been going around repeating something that is, I really thought was true, but it turns out it wasn't. But if, if I'm being honest with myself, then I'll put my ego in check and say like, all right, well, I was wrong. You know, when currently, who are you to question the words of a native speaker,

Speaker 5: 52:13

Especially one straight out of Mexico that has all the foundations in the, in the permission of the descendants of demo consults.

Speaker 2: 52:22

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one thing that we do is we, uh, we romanticize, right. We, I get asked that a lot, like, well, who are you to question this thing? Because this guy was a native speaker and, and, uh, wouldn't he know, and I'm like, well, I'm, I'm a native speaker of English, bro. And you probably shouldn't take my, my word on, on everything when it comes to, uh, the English language or, or the history. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think a lot of it just really does, it comes down to ego and just being able to keep ourselves in check, you know, in, in the dancer, they always talk about this Gottlieb poker, right. Can help this Gottlieb, polka, supposed to be this mirror that we look into. And we see ourselves and, and, you know, it's about having a deeper connection with our inner mentality, our inner, our inner dialogue. And, and they talk it up and, and it sounds nice, but I don't see a whole lot of people actually doing that. I don't see a whole lot of people actually looking into that mirror and, and, and, uh, questioning themselves and saying, well, maybe I need to change. And I think that needs to happen. It's more smoke than mirrors, but, well, you know,

Speaker 3: 53:38

Do you think, I know we all have egos, but is, are men more, uh, inclined to be afraid to be wrong?

Speaker 5: 53:50

I know, I think the women as women, we balanced the guys out and ask all the hard questions so that you have to look at yourself, but I don't know for me, you know, there's a lot of good things that came up. That's a Michigan, um, a lot of negative things too, but I'm focusing on the positive things. Like I still have contacts with a lot of those people still today, um, that were part of the group. Um, some of them have been, you know, in the negative side where they've experienced bad things and you know, so right now the focus is on healing and, um, continuing to con keep ourselves and others accountable. So I think that's the best thing that we can do. And as far as learning is concerned, no one is ever going to stop learning. So even if you're wrong, you're going to learn something new tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 54:47

Absolutely. Hopefully. Well, I want to thank you for coming on. Um, this has been a, a really good episode. I want to thank our special guest host, Michelle Melinda's for coming on.

Speaker 3: 55:03

Thank you. And let's just think the women and people who do come forward, believe women believe[inaudible] believe black women believe all women when they say this. And yes, we know that women are not entirely, uh, infallible either, but we've been through some stuff.