Throwback: Aztecs VS Samurai Pirates?

We here at Tales From Aztlantis would like to issue the following public service announcement: PLEASE DO NOT rely on social media posts as your sole source of historical and archaeological information. This should not be a controversial statement. Yet every day, social media feeds are inundated with well-meaning individuals uncritically sharing and reposting pseudohistory without bothering to check the sources or seek outside information.

Tik Tok, in particular is easily the worst offender when it comes to the spread of pseudohistory, pseudoarcheology, and general conspiracism. The speed with which a short video containing absolute nonsense can be created and shared on Tik Tok is truly impressive. And thanks to its algorithm, those who consume such disinformation are repeatedly inundated with more and more nonsense, creating a never-ending loop of paranoid conspiracism and pseudo historical group-think.

One such outlandish claim that frequently pops up on pseudohistory-promoting social media sites is our topic for this episode: the battle of Cagayan. For those unfamiliar with the general narrative, it usually goes like this:

“In 1582, a small, battle-hardened group consisting of 40 Tlaxkaltekah and Spanish soldiers defeated a thousand Japanese Samurai at the Battle of Cagayan in the Phillipines.”

At face value this story sounds super badass. But is this actually what happened? Did a small band of spunky Tlaxkaltekah and Spanish soldiers really vanquish a THOUSAND Japanese Samurai in a Thermopylae-style beat down in the Phillipines?

Let's find out!

Your hosts: 

Kurly Tlapoyawa is an  archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His  research covers  Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the  historical connections  between the two regions. He is the author of  numerous books and has  presented lectures at the University of New  Mexico, Harvard University,  Yale University, San Diego State  University, and numerous others. He  most recently released his  documentary short film "Guardians of the  Purple Kingdom," and is a  cultural consultant for Nickelodeon Animation  Studios.
@kurlytlapoyawa

Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus.  

Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:00

This episode is sponsored by Archeo Gato Tours. Want to dig deeper into Mexico's indigenous past and present? Allow Archeogato Tours to customize your Yucatan adventure. Archeo Gato works hand in hand with local indigenous guides to provide a tour that is entertaining, educational, and beneficial to the local community. For an adventure like no other, check out Archeogato.com. That's A-R-K-E-O-G-A-T-O.com. Or just follow the link in the show notes. Now, on with the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

You must excuse me. But you remember the lesson. Lesson in honesty. Honesty to some honesty to listen.

SPEAKER_05 1:17

Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to yet another episode of Tales from Astlantis. We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.

SPEAKER_06 1:27

And Ruben Ariano Tlakatekat. What is up, my brother? How's life treating you? Just hanging in there. Just hanging in there. Man, you're mad busy these days. Sure am. It's almost like I don't even have time to breathe. Damn. That's how busy and stressed I am from all the busyness I'm I'm involved in too much stuff. The general busyness. It's my life. Yeah. Hey, but it's good. I mean, I'd rather be doing something than not doing anything. Well, that's the worst, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:53

Then boredom really sets in, and you're like, uh it just feels yeah, I gotta be doing something because I'm like a shark, man. Gotta keep moving, keep going. Exactly. So this topic today, uh, the battle of Kagayan. Had you ever heard of this before? Did you say Kaga Ayan? Kagayan.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

How do you say it? Kaga Aya. Kaga Kagayan. I've never heard of this. I have to be honest, you you stumped me with this one here. I have no idea what this is.

SPEAKER_05 2:28

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. It's been popping up a lot on the on the socials, as the kids like to call them. I figured it was.

SPEAKER_06 2:35

Well, to be fair to me, I looked it up. Here I went over to my my new best friend, Gemini, and asked him, hey, tell me a few things about Cagayan. And it says, the battle is not well known outside of the Philippines in Spain. This is likely due to the fact that it was relatively small-scale conflict and that it took place in a remote location. So, unless you're a Hispanophile or someone from the Philippines who knows their history, no one else is really gonna know this.

SPEAKER_05 3:03

Yeah, yeah. So I thought it would be interesting as it falls within the purview of our podcast, given the uh alleged involvement of Tlashkalteca warriors.

SPEAKER_06 3:14

Oh, that's the that's the connection Tlashkalteca. Heck yeah. So I was wondering about that.

SPEAKER_05 3:21

Yeah, on its face. It's like, what are these guys talking about? But what what did you say? Your new friend Gemini.

SPEAKER_06 3:28

Yeah, Gemini. Gemini is Google's version of the AI.

SPEAKER_07 3:32

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 3:33

They call it Gemini. We're not sponsored by Google nor Gemini, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

I just honestly did not know what that was. Yeah. So it's like a uh an AI-powered search.

SPEAKER_06 3:45

Yeah, it basically does what the other AIs do. You ask it a question or you put in a prompt and it'll return some results. Nice. So I'd I just use it instead of Googling now. Sometimes I'll I mean Googling is still useful because there's certain things that Gemini can't do, but um you can pretty much ask Gemini anything and it'll populate it with stuff that's already out there in the internet. So interesting. I'll have to take a look. Yeah, you should because you know what it does. The good thing about this is that it eliminates all the ads that come with doing just a standard Google search and just give you gives you like a bullet point list of things and uh relevant websites that you might want to follow up with. Oh, sweet. Things like that. I'll have to take a look.

SPEAKER_05 4:29

Well, with that, dear listeners, I want to begin this episode with a simple, humble request. Please do not rely on social media posts as your sole source of historical and archaeological information. This should not be a controversial statement. Yet every day my various feeds are inundated with well-meaning individuals who are uncritically sharing and reposting pseudo history without bothering to check the sources or seek outside information. It's really it's it really grinds my gears to uh borrow a uh a statement from my uh esteemed co-host. You know, uh people see something online and they just hit share, and and it sounds interesting, and so they just share it and then it multiplies, and now you've got bullshit just spread throughout the internet, and nobody bothers to uh to do any fact checking.

SPEAKER_06 5:38

And that's a little because facts be damned. I mean facts be damned. That's been the name of the game for several years now. Absolutely. Uh I'm hearing people are saying yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:51

I'm just asking questions, but I heard so TikTok in particular is easily, in my opinion at least, the worst offender when it comes to the spread of pseudo-history, pseudo-archaeology, and general conspiracism. Now, this might be just because TikTok's the most popular delivery system for bullshit right now, but it just seems like TikTok is really, just really made for the purpose of spreading nonsense. Uh, the speed with which a short video containing absolute nonsense can be created and shared on TikTok is truly impressive. And thanks to its algorithm, those who consume such disinformation are repeatedly inundated with more and more nonsense, creating this never-ending loop of paranoid conspiracism and pseudo-historical groupthink. Now, one such outlandish claim that frequently pops up on pseudo-history promoting social media sites is our topic for this episode, the Battle of Kagayan. Now, for those unfamiliar with the general narrative, it goes something like this.

SPEAKER_06 7:08

In 1582, a small battle-hardened group consisting of 40 Tlash Calteca and Spanish soldiers defeated a thousand Japanese samurai at the Battle of Kagayan in the Philippines.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

Now, I mean, on face value, I I I I hear that in my instinct is to be like, yeah, no, I I seriously doubt that fucking happened.

SPEAKER_06 7:34

You know what this reminds me of? What's that? The old Spanish trope, well, more than Spanish, more like a Eurocentric trope of how the handful of Spaniards who went into Tenostitlan and defeated an entire empire with, you know, it's just like a hundred Spaniards with their swords and against thousands of Astics who couldn't defend themselves. And it's it's kind of like along the same lines.

SPEAKER_05 7:57

Yeah, yeah. The Spaniards definitely uh enjoy this trope of we are unbeatable, you know, especially when our backs are against the wall and against all odds we can pull off these superhuman feats, you know, as these battle-hardened warriors. Well, I think I agree, it does bear resemblance to that. Uh, I thought it would be helpful for our audience to hear for themselves one of these social media posts that is pushing this narrative. Check out the way that this is uh presented, it's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Did you know that one of the most epic battles in history took place between Japanese samurai and Mexican indigenous warriors? As a Spanish colony, the Philippines was administered by Mexico City. At the time, indigenous soldiers made up more than 90% of the both military in Mexico. In 1584, the television brought the four people developing the village of the property. When the Japanese offered to leave it for competition, the Hispanics were broadly rejected. The Japanese made one last charge, but the Hispanics and the United States held their ground by utilizing a series of trenches they dug. At the end of the battle, the Japanese surrendered and left.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

We'll be back after a quick break.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

This episode of Tales from Ostlantis is brought to you by Ostlantis Premium. Don't you just hate having your favorite podcast interrupted by ads like this? Well, dear listener, you're in luck. Because starting at just three bucks a month, you can support independent Chicano Media and receive ad-free episodes, premium episodes, bonus content, and access to our Discord server. Just visit talesfromastlantis.com and click Go Premium, or follow the link in the show notes. And now, on with the show.

SPEAKER_06 10:20

So are you telling me that none of that is true, Curly? Well, um because it sounds pretty legit. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 10:26

Well, you know, I'll admit at face value, this story sounds pretty badass, right? I mean I want to see the movie version of this because it sounds like the plot of a movie, you know, the Nickelodeon, if you're listening. But it's like you just asked, is this actually what happened? Did a small band of spunky Tlashcolteca and Spanish soldiers really vanquish a thousand Japanese samurai in a Thermopylae-style beatdown in the Philippines? Well, not exactly. So, and for those who don't know, Thermopylae is if you've seen the movie 300, that's what I'm referring to for you.

SPEAKER_06 11:08

So, did he say a thousand in that clip? Or maybe I missed it.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

Yeah, yeah, he said a thousand. Okay. So historical documentation regarding this event is sparse, to say the least. In fact, we only have two documents, letters that were written by Spaniards about the event. And these letters reveal questionable, often contradictory statements that strain the fabric of believability. Now, here are the two letters in Pool. The first letter is written by Juan Baptista Roman on June 25th of 1582. And it goes.

SPEAKER_06 12:20

Oh, the the professor.

SPEAKER_05 12:21

The professor was good news, everyone. That guy.

unknown 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

And I'm also gonna resist the urge to, you know, really over-annunciate the th the the th most illustrious and excellent sir.

SPEAKER_06 12:39

Yes, please, please.

SPEAKER_05 12:40

So the letter Spare us, Curly. Spare us. Most illustrious and excellent sir. I do not know whether the letters with new information which the governor is writing today will arrive in time to go on this ship, which has been dispatched to this port of Asabite. So I wish to give your excellency notice of what is going on. Yesterday, St. John's Day, in the afternoon, there arrived six soldiers who had gone with Captain Juan Pablo de Carrión against the Japanese, who were settled on the river of Cagayan. They say that Juan Pablo sailed with his fleet, which comprised the ship Sant Jusepe, the Admiral's galley, and five fragatas. From the port of Bigan, situated in Ilocos? I think so. About 35 days' journey from Cagayan. As he sailed out, he encountered a Chinese pirate, who very soon surrendered. He put 17 soldiers aboard of her and continued his course. While rounding Cape Borgador near Cagayan, one fair morning at dawn, they found themselves near a Japanese ship, which Juan Pablo engaged with the Admiral's galley, in which he himself was. With his artillery, he shot away their main mast and killed several men. The Japanese put out grappling irons and poured 200 men aboard the galley, armed with pikes and breastplates. There remained sixty Arc Bussiers. Am I saying that right? I think so. Arcbusiers firing at our men. Finally, the enemy conquered the galley as far as the main mast. Exciting stuff. This is I'm picturing it in my head. There our people also made a stand in their extreme necessity and made the Japanese retreat to their ship. They dropped their grappling irons and set their foresail, which still remained to them. At this moment the ship Sant Husepe grappled with them, and with the artillery and forces of the ship overcame the Japanese. The latter fought valiantly until only eighteen remained, who gave themselves up exhausted. Some men on the galley were killed, and among them its captain, Pero Lucas, fighting valiantly as a good soldier. Then the captain, Juan Pablo, ascended the Cagayan River, and found in the opening a fort and eleven Japanese ships. He passed along the upper shore because the mouth of the river is a league in width. The ship San Jusepe was entering the river, and it happened by bad fortune that some of our soldiers who were in a small fragata called out to the captain, saying to him, Return, return to Manila, set the whole fleet to return, because there are a thousand Japanese on the river with a great dill of artillery, and we are few. Whereupon Captain Luis de Callejo directed his course seaward, and although Juan Pablos fired a piece of artillery, he did not and could not enter, and continued to tack back and forth. In the morning he anchored in a bay, where such a tempest overtook them that it broke three cables out of four that he had, and one used for weighing anchor. He sent these six men, these are the original six men he's talking about, right, that are telling him the story. He sent these six men in a small vessel to see if there was on an Islet Islet? Islet? How do you say it's Islet any water, of which they were in great need. The men lost their way without finding any water, and when they returned where they had left their ship, they could not find it. They met with some of those Indians who were in the galley with Juan Pablos, from which it was learned that Juan Pablo had ascended the river two leagues and had fortified himself in a bay, and that with him was the galley, which had begun to leak everywhere in the engagement with the Japanese. The Indian crew was discharged on account of not having the supplies which were lost on the galley. Most of these men went aboard the Sant Husepe. They said that the Japanese were attacking them with eighteen sampans, which are like skiffs. They were defending themselves well, although there were but sixty soldiers with the seamen, and there were a thousand of the enemy, of a race at once valorous and skillful. The six soldiers came with this news, and on the way they met a sailor who had escaped from a sangly ship, which had sailed from here with supplies of rice for Juan Pablo. He says that the Sanglis mutinied at midnight and killed ten soldiers who were going with it as an escort, who had no sentinel. This one escaped by swimming with the aid of a lance that was hurled at him from the ship. Moreover, I have just detained some passengers who were going on this ship, because there are no troops on these islands, and a hundred soldiers have to go immediately as a reinforcement, although the weather is tempestuous. I expect to be one of them if the governor will give me permission. These enemies who have in truth remained here are a warlike people, and if your excellency does not provide by this ship and reinforce us with a thousand soldiers, these islands can be of little value. May your excellency with great prudence provide what is most necessary for his majesty's service, since we have no resource other than the favor your excellency shall order to be extended to us.

SPEAKER_06 18:58

The governor was disposed.

SPEAKER_05 19:00

We all have to be The Governor was disposed to send assistance to the ship, which was a very important affair, but after these events he will not be able to do it because there do not remain in this city seventy men who can bear arms. May our Lord guard them, most illustrious and excellent person of your excellency, and increase your estate, as your excellency's servants desire. From Savite, june twenty fifth, fifteen eighty-two, most excellent and illustrious sir, your servant kisses your excellency's hands. Yeah, more than kissing his hands. Juan Baptista Roman. Have you picked up your Mexica calendar for the year twelve Flint? Or how about a paperback copy of the four disagreements? Just visit tales from Ostlantis.com for all the latest merchandise and show some love for your favorite podcast. That's TalesFromostlantis.com for all the latest merchandise. Now, back to the show.

SPEAKER_06 20:15

Now you know that was uh that was a tradition of kissing the hand. Yeah. I mean, even in Mexico, like growing up, like I remember seeing that in my dad's hometown. Like when you're a kid, you kind of expect it when you're uh like if you're walking down the street and you see an aunt or an uncle and you know you make eye contact, they expect you to go up to them and say hi and kiss their hand. Really? Seriously. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's an antiquated custom. I don't know if it's still true today, but it was when I was growing up. Wow, that's wild.

SPEAKER_05 20:43

Yeah. How many hands did you kiss? Way too many.

SPEAKER_06 20:47

I had too many.

SPEAKER_05 20:48

Yeah. I didn't know any better. You gotta do what you gotta do now. My kid. Your kid. It's it's part of the culture. Can't say no. So there's a lot to unpack in this letter, but for the sake of time, I'll just say that we should note that the story did not come from firsthand experience in any battles, it but from secondhand sources, these soldiers that happened upon these other people who told them what happened, right? And as we Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Say that again? So it was these six uh soldiers who were sent to go look for water. Who were sent they come back and they can't find their ship anymore, and then they bump into these indigenous peoples who were serving on one of the ships.

SPEAKER_06 21:32

So when they say Indian, they mean the Tlaskalans. Yes. Or Tlaskalteca. Okay. See, that part was confusing me. I don't know if they meant like Indians from India or were they talking about the city? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 21:41

I should have clarified that. Um so they these soldiers bump into the Tlaskaltecas who relay this story to them. Like, oh yeah, this whole this crazy shit happened. And even the story that they relay is not the story that's being shared on all these social media sites, you know.

SPEAKER_06 21:58

Wait, so the story the the first hand account. Account comes from the Tlascaltecas themselves who told it to those six individuals who had been sent away, who then told it to Juan Batista Romano. Yes. Is that is that the uh chain am I following of okay the chain of information? So it was like a game of telephone. So by the time we get it from Juan, it's already third removed at this point.

SPEAKER_05 22:19

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 22:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:21

And it doesn't really match up like what other people have said. You know, the the modern interpretations of this event don't really follow what was going on here. Um and as we will see later, when we contrast the alleged number of participants in the battle to the actual carrying capacity of all the ships involved, the numbers don't quite add up. So we'll take a look at that uh later on in the episode. So here we have the second letter, which was written after the first, presumably by Don Gonzalo Ronquillo de Penalosa on July 1st, 1582. If you would do us the honors, sir. Of course.

SPEAKER_06 23:05

Royal Catholic Majesty, by this ship which is to leave these islands on the last of June of this year, I am giving your majesty a full account of the condition of affairs and events in this region. As it was about to sell, news came of the fleet, which I wrote among other things I had dispatched to the effect a settlement in Kagayan, and of the punishment and resistance of the Japanese pirates, of whose coming we had news this year. The fleet sent by me, as above stated, met two vessels of the enemy near Kagayan, one of the Japanese and the other Sanglis. An engagement ensued, and those vessels surrendered after a fierce fight, in which two hundred Japanese, among them the commander of the fleet and his son, were killed, while we lost only three soldiers. Juan Pablo de Carrion, whom I sent as my lieutenant general in charge of this fleet, continued his journey and entered the Cagayan River where he was to make a settlement. At the entrance of the river he found six more Japanese vessels belonging to the fleet of those which had surrendered. There was also a goodly number of people there and fortifications. On account of this lack of men, a severe storm having driven out to sea the flagship which he took on this expedition, he did not sack those forts, but attempted only to enter the river. Then he did, going up about six leagues where he made a settlement in a place where he could erect a fort, whence he could direct offensive and defensive warfare against the enemy. I noticed that too, that's why I'm like, wait, what? This news came yesterday, and with all possible dispatch I am sending reinforcements, boats, ammunition, and the provisions necessary. I considered it so needful to employ the soldiers for this purpose because too small a force remains to me for the aid of Maluco, as I have written, since that undertaking is so important. However, if they send from that place to beg aid, I shall give it with what forces I can, for I suffer a great lack of men and other things because no reinforcements have been sent me from Nueva Espana, although I have implored them. This land suffers from a constant and pressing need of reinforcements on account not only of its unhealthful climate, but of the many emergencies which continually arise when I must send aid. These occasions now are not so much a matter of jest as they have been hitherto, for the Chinese and Japanese are not Indians, but people as valiant as many of the inhabitants of Berberia or Barbary, and even more so I entreat your majesty to give careful attention to this and to order that in all vessels as many men as possible be spent, for it is the key to what is necessary for the preservation of this camp. I beg also that careful attention be given in the other things. The gratuity for the expenses incurred in these necessary undertakings and for others similar to them, which are thrusting themselves forward every moment, which was provided by your majesty's auditors of your Royal Audiencia of Mexico in the ship arriving at this bay on the 24th of last month, consisted of a decree and warrant in which they ordered that Dr. Sande be paid here for the time while he remained here after my arrival, and until his arrival at Mexico. For this purpose, they set aside in their decree the tributes which belong to your majesty and order that they be attached to this and sent to them, threatening me with imprisonment if I do not comply. I have written to your majesty already of the poor state of your treasury here and its many pressing necessities, and of the extreme difficulty experienced in raising the amount of needful for the same. Will your majesty please take suitable action in this? For without the aid of what little resources your majesty possesses here, this colony cannot be preserved. May our Lord guard the Catholic and royal person of your Majesty and for many prosperous years, and give you increase of many kingdoms and seniorities for the good of Christianity. Manila, July the first, eighty-two.

SPEAKER_05 27:41

So it's interesting because the second letter doesn't really add much to the story, right? It briefly mentions it, but it's more like this guy's just begging for reinforcements and for more supplies.

SPEAKER_06 27:53

List of grievances for more supplies, for reinforcements, for necessities. Yeah, not much there.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

And and so, you know, the fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 28:04

Wait, and so this is this is only the second of the only two sources that we know of that mention the Battle of Kagayan. So the first one's the one that gives us the account that we piece together as to what happened, and this one just kind of mentions it and doesn't really go into detail, right? Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 28:23

So let's look at the four primary claims made on social media and see how well they mesh with the story set out in these two letters. So if you will read the uh the claims, please, and I'll read the rest. Okay. So claim one, the pirates were samurai. The primary claim made by pseudo-historians on TikTok and other social media sites regarding the Kagayan battles revolves around the alleged involvement of samurai as the pirates. Samurai. Such a cool word. This claim probably stems from the fact that former samurai did sometimes find themselves employed as pirates. In samurai lore, those without masters are referred to as Ronin, who frequently sought employment as mercenaries or in some cases they resorted to banditry. Among them, some turned to piracy and adopted the mantle of Woku, a notorious breed of pirates active in East Asia from the 1200s to the 1600s. These former samurai were extremely appealing as recruits for the Woku due to their skill in combat. But it should be noted that Ronin never made up the majority of these raiding parties. The Woku were made up of individuals from diverse backgrounds, such as fishermen, farmers, merchants, craftsmen, and smugglers. Their attire typically lacked armor, favoring weapons like the bow or spear, although gunpowder weapons gradually replaced the bow in the latter half of the 16th century. But we should note that neither letter makes any mention whatsoever of Ronin, of samurai, or of anything resembling a professional army. For the most part, the Woku were regular men, not warriors. Basically, there is no evidence at all that samurai were present at the Battle of Kagayan, much less an entire army of Ronin.

SPEAKER_06 30:36

What do you think of that movie Ronin though? The one with You like that movie?

SPEAKER_05 30:39

Yeah, it was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_06 30:40

The De Niro. It was pretty cool, right? Yeah, yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_05 30:43

Claim two, the pirates were Japanese. It's often assumed that the pirates involved in the Kagayan battles were exclusively Japanese. Hell, the two letters specifically refer to Japanese pirates. However, the Woku were an ethnically diverse group, comprising individuals from various nationalities. These groups commonly consisted of a blend of Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. Depending on their proximity to China, Japan, or Korea, the composition of Woku would reflect a higher proportion of the respective nationalities, right? I mean, this makes sense. If the Woku were operating near China, probably gonna have a lot more Chinese, you know, pirates. Wokus. Yeah, Woku. If they're operating near Korea, probably more Korean. If they're operating near Japan, they would be more Japanese, but it was always this uh ethnically diverse group. It was never mono ethnic in uh in their makeup.

SPEAKER_06 31:44

Do you think they might have, like, you know, here in the US we have Pirate Day, Speak Like a Pirate Day, or what is it? You ever heard of that? You think they have something like that over there? Speak like a woku day over there. Like what would that sound like?

SPEAKER_05 31:54

Maybe. All I know is that people, the right wingers in this country, hate it when you speak like a woku.

SPEAKER_06 32:08

Uh given Plane three. Oh wait. Where are we?

SPEAKER_05 32:14

Given that Kagayan was situated quite a distance from Jap Japan. Japan. It's more plausible that the pirates operating there were a mixed ensemble, potentially even including local Filipino recruits.

SPEAKER_06 32:30

Claim three. Spanish forces consisted of only forty Tlascalteca and Spanish soldiers.

SPEAKER_05 32:37

Another remarkable assertion stemming from the events at Cagayan is the purported victory of forty Spanish soldiers against a force exceeding twenty-five times their number within a few days. However, this claim contradicts a second Spanish account, which mentions a total of sixty soldiers. So one of those letters specifically says they had sixty, and then people are saying forty. It anyway, this reveals a clear inconsistency in the sources. These conflicting narratives underscore the uncertainty surrounding the accurate account. Yet the focus solely on the number of soldiers overlooks a crucial aspect. The presence of the crews aboard the Spanish fleet. Consisting of the galley San Josepe and five small fregatas, each vessel boasted a trained crew adept at boarding actions and ship defense, even in the absence of soldiers. So if you have these ships, even th if there's no soldiers on 'em, they would be trained, like presumably they would have had to have fight off some pirates before, or maybe enemy nations. Like these guys weren't just gonna sit there holding the oars, like, oh well shit, guess we're done for, right?

SPEAKER_06 34:03

But also what really impresses me about these people who believe these claims that they were fighting against a force that was over 25 times their size. Like, you have to be a complete rube to really believe that. Yeah, like who believes this? Honestly, deep down. If they do a good accounting of the numbers, like who believes this happened? Right?

SPEAKER_05 34:25

Seriously, like, yeah, I I agree with you 100%.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

I mean, you have to be completely dense to believe that this is true. Honestly, I'm sorry to say it, I don't know, comes off as a little arrogant, but come on.

SPEAKER_05 34:37

Seriously? We're gonna change we're gonna change the name of our podcast to come on. Come on. Seriously. Good one. Hey, I like that. It's got a good ring to it. Uh and nonetheless, it was customary for naval ships to carry a full complement of soldiers, similar to modern-day Marines, just in case shit went down, right? I mean, come on. It was a dangerous time for people to be traveling around without any sort of defense or knowledge of how to defend yourself. While precise figures remain elusive, I I'm really trying to use that word more because I like the way it sounds so much. Elusive. It's plausible that each fregata accommodated approximately a hundred sailors, with the galley and San Jusepe likely housing larger crews. For instance, the galley, including rowers, might have carried upwards of 200 individuals. Thus, the total Spanish strength could have ranged from 500 to 800 men at a minimum, even without factoring in additional soldiers who may have been added for these expeditions.

SPEAKER_06 35:50

You know, honestly, if you really think about it, it's that movie 300 that ruined it for everyone. Yeah. Seriously. It made it seem believable, right? Existed. You know, like people believe movies as if they're true. Even the movies that let's say it's based on a true story, yes. Based what, like maybe what the people in it are actual people that lived, but the entire story is completely made up. Yeah, that still makes it based on a true story. Yeah. And then people go and watch these things and they believe them as to be true and as an accurate accounting of the historical event. Well, and so ever since that movie 300 came out, it's like you see more of this pseudo-historical interpretation that usually favors Europeans. Oh, you see how badass we as Europeans are? You know, it just took a handful of Spaniards to defeat the Aztecs. It took a handful of Spanish and a couple of Indian Tlashkalans to defeat the 25 times more samurai sailors or whatever. And it's like, seriously, you believe that? Honestly, come on, come on.

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Although I gotta say, uh Samurai Pirate is a pretty badass name for a punk band.

SPEAKER_06 37:04

We might have to get started on that. Would it be the samurai punk rates? Hey.

SPEAKER_05 37:19

The Spanish narratives of the battles tend to be exaggerated. That's like, you know, putting it nicely. Seriously, particularly regarding the scale of opposition that they encountered.

SPEAKER_06 37:34

For instance, their depiction of a skirmish with a pirate vessel reads The Japanese deployed grappling irons and sent 200 men aboard our galley, armed with pikes and breastplates. Meanwhile, sixty arcabusiers? I'm having trouble with that word too. Arkaboozers. Let's just call it Arkaboozers. Meanwhile, sixty arcabozers continued to fire at our forces.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

So during that era, the largest Japanese vessels were typically Atakebune. I'm sure I just fucking butchered that. Which usually accommodated crews of around 150 sailors and soldiers. However, it's conceivable that the pirates might have bolstered their numbers in anticipation of this assault. Nonetheless, this would have roughly equaled the complement aboard the galley. So it would have been like even, you know, if just looking at the size of the ships and how many people they carried traditionally. It's more probable that the pirates utilized a junk, a traditional Chinese ship, as indicated in one of the Spanish testimonies. Additionally, the subsequent engagement with the pirate fleet mentions being overrun by sampans, a type of skiff-style boat, and they're small. Assuming that each sampan could carry 10 to 15 individuals at most, this suggests that the Woku forces in the second encounter numbered at most 200 to 300 individuals. So not the thousand that you know everybody talks about. Thousands upon thousands? Yeah. It should come as no surprise that many of the social media accounts promoting the unabashedly pro-Spanish version of this event are relying not on historical records, of which there are two, but rather on a story from the right-wing Spanish newspaper ABC, or ABC, I'm assuming, is what they call it in that part of the world. Do you know what it stands for, ABC? I don't. But here's the Wikipedia description of ABC.

SPEAKER_06 39:49

ABC is known for generally supporting conservative political views and defending the Spanish monarchy. The paper has also a right-wing stance. Its director since 1983, Luis Maria Anson, left the paper in 1997 to found another daily, La Razon, which initially catered to even more conservative readers. So not an unbiased source, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you want to talk about pro-Spanish, they're not gonna look at this event uncritically in the way that they present it.

SPEAKER_06 40:22

Um or maybe critically. Yeah. They're not even looking at the source. Yeah, there's no mention of the sources. I mean, they're just they're just going by the the the fantasy by the fable. You know, the Spaniards, they're pretty well known for their fables. I mean, going all the way back to, you know, medieval period, which is kind of what spurned the whole notion of the seven cities of Cebola and the Antilles and They love themselves a good story. A good story of of riches and grandeur, and you know, so this kind of falls in league with that, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:55

Well, the story that most of these from Abesse, this right wing conservative newspaper one, two, three. Um the story that most of these uh social media sites are using as a source uh begins with the following, and if you'll read the part in uh Spanish, I'll read the translation in English. So for our uh non-Spanish speaking audience and people like myself, at 69 years old, the sailor Juan Pablo de Carrion was one of the last survivors of the most brilliant generation of discoverers and conquerors that Spain has ever had. In the final years of his career, he was tasked with expelling a group of more than 600 Japanese pirates, including a few disinherited samurai from the island of Luzon in the Philippines, with only a handful of ships and forty men in what is known as the Battle of Cagayan. So, propaganda much? I mean, this it's this newspaper story uh brilliant generation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:55

That's what they were.

SPEAKER_05 42:55

I mean, oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 42:56

These were these were Enlightenment people, you know? They they were they were like they were like Newton and Locke. Oh, yeah, you know those Enlightenment thinkers, they're equals to those to those guys, right?

SPEAKER_05 43:05

They're brilliant. 100%. Well, my favorite part about this story that they're using as a source is that the story, the Abbess S story, is part of a crowdfunding campaign to raise enough money to publish a comic book about the Battle of Kagayan. What? A comic book that I'm sure presents the event, you know, uncritically and without questioning its historical veracity. So this is the source. They don't use the two historical documents that actually exist. They instead use this uh newspaper story from a right-wing nationalistic Spanish newspaper that's being used to raise money to produce a comic book about the event, which I'm sure they want to use to inculcate and indoctrinate young Spaniards, right, into believing the supremacy of their. Their freaking ancestors.

SPEAKER_06 44:01

It's like uh what was that Disney film from 20 something years ago? The Journey to El Dorado, or what was that?

SPEAKER_05 44:07

Uh The Road to El Dorado. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:09

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 44:10

Yeah, that was pretty bad. But one thing that I want to bring up is I think it's really interesting when you look at the different social media sites that are promoting this story as you know historically accurate, the level of participation by the Tlashcaltecas like raises and lowers depending on who's telling the story. So like if it's more of a Chicano-based TikToker, they'll be like, yeah, and there were Tlascaltecas. But when you look at somebody who's more of an Hispanista, they don't even mention Tlascaltecas. They're just like, you know, the Spanish, what do they call them? Ter Tercios. The Spanish tercio fought off the thousand samurai. And so the story, it fluctuates. It's a very fluid story, depending on who's doing the telling.

SPEAKER_06 44:58

Yeah, well, even ABC, they don't even mention the nationality. They just assume that the readers are gonna assume that it's Spanish, because they say 40 men. Yeah. Like 40 who? Yeah. Oh, Spanish? Oh, okay. Just 40 of our people against a thousand of theirs? Man, we're badass.

SPEAKER_05 45:14

Of course we kicked their asses. So, dear listener, I leave you with the following statement from an actual Filipino historian named L Raposas, who said the following about the Battle of Cagayan.

SPEAKER_06 45:32

Whether it was because the surviving soldiers only had secondhand information or it was due to Bautista's own editorial input, the Japanese pirates appeared to be numerous, perhaps even more numerous than the Spanish in the Philippines. The numbers were sufficient enough to sustain a fort in Cagayan, even. Then again, there were no other supporting evidence from the account that they really did number a thousand, or for that matter, perhaps even the 260 pirates in the lone Japanese ship the Spanish won against was also an exaggeration. The largest of the Japanese warships of the time, the iron-plated Atakebune or Bukan, could fit a hundred to maybe two hundred soldiers. There was no indication thus far that these ships sailed as far as the Philippines, especially considering their fortress-like built. Also, they were newly introduced by this time. Six of these ships were constructed upon Nobunaga Oda's orders in 1578. Also called Tekosin or Iron Ships, their first appearance abroad may have been during Hirayoshi Toyotomi's invasion of Korea, a full 10 years after the Kagayan battles. The first Japanese ship which Karyon won against may have had as many as 260 in it, but that would likely mean the ship was overloaded. In addition, the Japanese who later attacked Karyon's galley in Kagayan were on board sampans. These flat bottom boats would usually accommodate only 3 to 5 people. If a thousand were to fit in 18 sampans, that would mean over 50 pirates on each boat. Think of how that would float. Nice. I like that.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

Too shit, sir. So there you have it. Claims made on social media regarding the Battle of Cagayan rely entirely on embellished Spanish accounts, second-hand sources that do not align with historical fact, and apparently GoFundMe pitches for comic books from right-wing Spanish nationalist newspapers. And it's unfortunate because the actual history of piracy, colonization, and the Tlashcalteca presence in the Philippines is fascinating enough on its own, without these fantastical retellings of what occurred during this time. But as for the Battle of Cagayan, the story just doesn't hold water. Yeah, so there you have it. And I I like the way that this uh the Filipino historian just kind of takes it apart in like a paragraph.

SPEAKER_06 48:21

Yeah. Right. Pretty much. Again, as I was saying earlier, who believes this?

SPEAKER_05 48:26

Yeah, you'd have to be out of your goddamn mind. You'd have to be like the hardest Spanish fanboy simp on the planet to think that any of this was true or or plausible. And what um what this made me think of, which is a story that is worth telling, and we should cover, you know, in a in an episode, is you know, Chimalpain actually documented uh Japanese presence in in Mexico in the 1610 and 1614. Two Japanese uh delegations were sent. They landed at uh Acapulco, and there were Nawas. I mean, that's fascinating to me that there were actually samurai and like Mexica warriors and side-by-side, like interacting with each other, sizing each other up. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_06 49:18

I remember encountering that story when I was still in grad school doing research, and uh, I remember uh even reached out to you like, hey, you ever heard of this before? Because it was just like, I don't know, where like these Japanese samurai in Mexico in the early colonial period. I'm like, man, this is pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, uh, it didn't make it into my dissertation because it had nothing to do with what I was you know writing about, but still it's just the fact that that exists, or that you know, that's something that happened, I think we should definitely cover on the podcast at some point.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

And and um I remember the conversation because you were like, Have you ever heard of the phrase hapon tlaka?

SPEAKER_06 49:51

That's what it was, hapon tlaka.

SPEAKER_05 49:53

It was like hapontlaka, like Japan people, and sure enough, Chimalpayin. There's like Nawa in Nahuat documentation. He calls him hapontlaka, and and he describes uh what the the katanas looked like, their swords. Yeah, right. And he talks about the story of how there was like a I guess an altercation in Acapulco where one of the samurai stabbed a Spaniard who was like trying to convert people. I mean, like that's the story that's the story, yeah. Holy shit. That's the story right there.

SPEAKER_06 50:26

But uh we'll save that for another time because uh, you know, we're at no shortage of uh topics. Or we can also talk about the time that the Hapon Tlaca defeated uh entire uh fleet of Spanish conquistadors at the shores of uh Australia or something. I mean, it's just as plausible as this story.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

Yeah, well what we like to do here, my friend, is stick to the truth. And uh the truth, you say? You know what I like to say about the truth. What's that, homie? The truth, well, it's like medicine. It doesn't always taste good, but it is always good for you.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

What uh hap on laka demoy tase, hey noble ones, welcome back to my channel. This is the Metatron Speaking, and lately people have been sending me links to this article on Facebook that talks about this battle that happened in 1582 between Europeans and Japanese samurai. All of this happening near the Kagayan River in the Philippines. Now, in the past, as I was studying Japanese history, I did read about this incident but didn't go deeply into it. Clearly, this mention made me curious, so I read the article and I found statements such as the following: Forty Spanish soldiers defeated a thousand Japanese samurai. Okay, already the absurdity of this claim should sort of pave the way to what's coming. As you can see from the title, this is a debunking video. But I'm not attacking just one Facebook article. This story is all over the place. There are several blogs, pages on the internet, and even a Wikipedia page that talk about this as if it were an actual historical event that happened that way. And really, what the majority of these articles are trying to push is the idea of look how superior European men were and their soldiers because of their great armor and their great superior Tolidon Blades, they destroyed the weak Japanese and their feeble katana that clearly couldn't stand the power of the superior European steel. Ha! Ate that you weevus! Like literally, I don't know where academia went.

SPEAKER_05 52:51

Thank you for listening to Tales from Ostlantis, a project of the Chimalli Institute of Mesoamerican Arts. If you enjoy the show, please consider becoming a Patreon supporter. You can do this by visiting TalesFromAstlantis.com and clicking support the podcast. Your continued support will help keep the podcast ad free and independent. Until next time, Timo Itase.