Throwback: An Aztec False Flag!

Danzantes, Mexicanistas, and other cultural practitioners often display a banner that they claim is the "original" and "true" banner of the Mexika people. Often referred to as the Panketzalli, Bandera de Cuitlahuac, or the Bandera de Victoria, this symbol can be found emblazoned on t-shirts, flags, dance regalia, murals and tattoos. But where does this image actually come from? And who created it?

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

As the people of Medida Yucatan experience increasing urbanization and gentrification, there are fewer opportunities for diverse and intergenerational communities to engage with local culture. In response, Lignum was created. Lignum is a community-based space located in Medida where people come together to connect, create, and grow. Since its launch in 2024, Lignum has offered a community seed bank, contemporary Maya language classes and revitalization programs, as well as workshops on screen printing, documentary screenings, and casual gatherings that nourish both mind and spirit. Most of these workshops are free or donation-based, and they are hosted by indigenous and local experts. At their urban Milpa, they practice indigenous science that respects the natural cycles of the region. Lignum is a haven for culture, rest and resistance. So just check the show notes and click the link marked Support Lignum, and you can make Lignum more welcoming, accessible, and resilient with your small donation. Now, on with the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

But you've learned a lesson. A lesson in honesty. Honesty to yourself, and honesty to others. That lesson must end you in good step among the money. I think we've all learned a good lesson. I've always heard that honesty is the best policy. Now I'm catching on the why that's some why that's some why that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to yet another episode of Tales from Ostlantis, the podcast where we explore Chicano Mexicano and Mesoamerican history and archaeology and combat disinformation about the same. We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

And Ruben Ariano Tlacatecat. What is up, man? How are you doing today? I'm doing fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

How about yourself? I'm also doing well. Thank you for asking. It's been hot, and I've been working out in the field up in Santa Fe, so it's uh it's been a little it's been a little warm uh recently, but things are getting better. How are the wildfires doing? Um they're all under control, as far as I know, right now. So things are you know, they're just dealing with the aftermath of a lot of wire wildfires and then all the flooding that comes with the freaking monsoon season happening immediately after all of these wildfires take place. So it it causes a lot of damage, man. It's been doing a lot of damage, especially down near the Sacramento Mountains. So it's been it's been rough for some people.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I bet. Well, at least uh it's good to hear that they're under control and uh things are beginning to subside a little bit, so that's good.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yes. And so we are currently in the month of September, and we all know what that means. That means it's it's it's almost Cinco the Mayo. Cinco the Mayo, dude. That's Mexican Independence Day, right? Mexican Independence Day is coming up September 16th, and it it made me think a little bit, and it's tied into the today's episode, actually. Um it's nice how that works out sometimes. But a lot of people, Chicanos in particular, are unaware that after 1821, after the war for independence from Spain, the uh the Mexican Republic didn't actually become a republic until 1824. So you had this period of time between 1821 and 1824 that was pretty tumultuous, and within that frame of time was the first Mexican Empire, which not many people talk about.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Yeah, that's that is something that's kind of unfortunate. But I'm, you know, as an instructor, as a historian, I try to remedy that with my students at least. Uh when we talk about that period of American history and uh even you know Mexican American history and and American history, we always bring up the um the battle for Mexican independence from Spain because I try to explain to students that the aftermath of that that uh war for independence from Spain snowballs because of all the tumult, as you were just saying, into what later becomes uh the fight for Texas independence, which leads directly to the war of 1846 and 1848 between the US and Mexico, which ended up um giving most of uh the northern part of what Mexico or well, Spain claimed first, and then Mexico claimed as its territory, almost half of it, which now becomes the Southwest, right? And so these histories are intertwined, you know. Um, for the longest time, historians uh who tended to be nationalistic to a degree tended to talk about their history of their country uh separately, but now, you know, those of us that know better, hopefully more people are catching on to this, you know, talk about the history on a more hemispheric sense, in a more broader worldwide sense, and and and uh try to make those connections and how we're all basically entangled, despite what Washington said uh at the beginning of of the this country's founding, he said avoid entanglements, but we can't help it. We're humans within our nature, and we're gonna get entangled in stuff, just like Iturbide gets entangled in in uh the first uh Mexican Empire.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah, and um for those not in the know, allow me to uh you know let get you in on the know. Uh I just I pulled up this article. It's on Wikipedia, so you know, whatever, but I I read it and it's it's pretty it's accurate.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Well, Wikipedia is good as an encyclopedia. That's what I tell my students. Yeah. If you're using it for reference, it's fine for the most part. But if you're using it as a as a source to cite in your work, no, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a good way of looking at it. So from the uh the Wikipedia page on the first Mexican Empire, it says, although Mexico became a republic in 1824, it did so only after the failure of the Empire under former military officer Agustin de Iturbide, who ruled as Agustin the First. Agustin the First. He obviously thought there were gonna be more, but it didn't work out.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Well, you gotta have a first. There's always a first.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Yeah, yeah. The sole monarch of this first empire. Monarchy was the default position for independent Mexico, called for in the political plan de iguala drafted by Iturbide, which united forces fighting for independence from Spain. The last Spanish viceroy signed the Treaty of Cordova in September 1821, and the plan for monarchy in independent Mexico moved forward. Damn. Iturbide's popularity culminated in mass demonstrations on May 18th, 1822, in favor of making him emperor of the new nation in the absence of any European royal agreeing to assume the throne.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

How does that happen?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, I that's an excellent question. We should investigate that.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I'm sure someone's written on it. I just uh haven't gotten to that book yet. It's probably on one of my lists of to read.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

So, you know, uh Agustin de Iturbide, the first emperor of the first Mexican Empire. Um later he was uh driven out, and then he returns to Mexico at one point where he's taken captive and executed.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Executed. They told him not to come back, but he's like, the Mexican people love me. They they want their emperor back because unlike those other guys, I'm actually wearing nice clothes.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Um, and it's called the first Mexican Empire to distinguish it from the second Mexican Empire of uh Maximilian.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Right, which is second the second Mexican independence.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Yeah, so there's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

So we have emperors on both both uh major independence movements in in Mexico's history. The first one and the second one. And guess what? They both get shot. Maximilian also gets executed.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Way to go, Mexico. And I bring this up because it was Agustin de Iturbide in the first Mexican Empire that really had that flag, that that flag design that we now recognize is like the flag of the Mexican nation, right? With the green, white, and red, with the eagle and and everything in the middle. Because before that it was the flag of the three guarantees. Yeah. Which had the green, white, and red, but it was like v um like diagonal.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Like the way that the presidents wear it across their chest today with the banner. Yes. Or what would you call it? Not a banner. What would you call that? Like um there's a name for that. I can't think of it.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah, like a sash. Sash. There you go. Thank you. Yeah. Sash. And uh so you had the the flag of the three guarantees, and then that carried over. The colors, anyway, carried over to the the flag, the official flag of the first Mexican Empire. And that iconography sort of continued throughout Mexico's history. Doesn't it evolve?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

I mean, it's not exactly the same as it was.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

It's not exactly the same.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

But the the the iconography and and uh the the figures are basically the same, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, the the three main things are the uh the eagle and the cactus on a rock, right? And uh I think the first flag, the eagle under the f the Mexican Empire, the eagle was wearing a crown. Right. Um and there was no serpent.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

No serpent.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

No serpent. And there was even uh a little uh there was water, so the rock was standing like an island uh with water in the water. Mexico City. Exactly. So I I mention all of this because that has to do with today's episode, which is about the Mexica Pantli or the alleged Mexica Pantli or Panquetzali. I've heard it called all of all you know, all these different things. Yeah. Well the the panquezali, and then it's also been called La Bandera the Victoria. It's been called Really?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

La Bandera de Victoria?

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah, La Bandera de Quitlawak. Yeah, quitlawak, I've heard it called. Right. Um and if you're active in Mexicayot or dansa communities, you've undoubtedly seen this image.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

You know what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

You probably know what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

It's on one of your t-shirts or something.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah, I've got a I've got one right here in the house, um, a little uh screen printed one. Yeah so yeah, they're everywhere. So it there it's it's quite a ubiquitous symbol, and you commonly hear Don Santes refer to it, especially those involved in Mexicayot, as like the real Mexican flag. Right, not that imposter flag. Yeah, not that bullshit invented by uh Agustin the First. And uh keep in mind that name, Agustin de Iturbide, because that also plays in to today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

So with that, dear listeners, that's interesting that you that there's that connection between the first Mexican ruler after independence, Iturbide, and the associ the association he had with the flag that we now know as the Mexican flag and the Iturbide individual that we're about to talk about today. That's Yep. Good going there, sir. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

An Aztec false flag. Back in the day when I was a young man living in Mexico City, I purchased a paperback book on the Sócalo that would have a huge influence on me. The book was called Juicio a Espana, and it was written by Antonio Choconochtlet Gomora. And while I now know that its contents are largely a hodgepodge of pseudo-historical nationalist rhetoric, its anti-establishment and pro-indigenous stance strongly resonated with me at the time. And in many ways, it helped lead me down the path of legitimate archaeology and ethnohistory. I must have read and reread this book like a dozen times. It fed into my own sense of indigenous pride with its decidedly anti-Spanish narrative, but it was the image I found on page 135 that stuck out to me the most.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

The top of the page reads Explicación de la verdadera bandera mexicana, dicha por el excellente historiador Mexicanista Doctor Ignacio Romero Vargas Iturbide. Or in English, Explanation of the True Mexican flag told by the excellent Mexican historian Dr. Ignacio Romero Vargas Iturbide.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

You should put that on your business card, by the way, excellent Mexican historian. Excellent Chicano historian. There you go. And emblazoned underneath, the image of what many call the. God damn it. So sorry, I wrote that wrong. And emblazoned underneath is the image of what many refer to as the true Mexica banner or the banner of Kitlawak, or simply the Panketzali, or precious banner. Now, for those not familiar with this particular image, I will include a link to the banner in the show notes for this episode. You should pull it up because I'm going to be referring to it a lot during this episode. As for the alleged story behind its discovery, it goes something like this. At some unknown point in time, and believe me, I've tried to nail down the goddamn year this was supposed to have happened, but there's no information available. At some unknown point in time, a mexicanista named Ignacio Romero Vargas Iturbide. Yeah, there's that last name again. Yep, who was working as the personal secretary to the Pope made a startling discovery while working in the private collections of the Vatican. While combing through the massive archives, Iturbide came upon a Mexica war banner emblazoned with an image familiar to every Mexican, an eagle standing triumphant atop a nopal cactus, the sun blazing behind it. But instead of holding a serpent in its beak, this eagle held the At Tlachinoli, the Mexica symbol for fire and water that was associated with sacred warfare. This banner, Iturbide surmised, stood as the authentic and true flag of the Mexica people, and by extension, the modern Mexican nation. Lacking a camera, Iturbide is said to have drawn the banner from memory and later had it reproduced. This symbol has since become inextricably linked with the Mexicayot movement, and it can be found on t-shirts, palacates, stickers, murals, and even, as my co-host mentioned earlier, tattoos.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Isn't it funny how whenever you need a camera to be around for something important? There's never a camera. Like with the UFOs that people cling to see. Like the there's never an actual good camera that can take a solid picture of this flying UFO. And in this case, Mr. Vida just happens to be in some archive and he doesn't well, I guess maybe back then they weren't thinking about this sort of stuff like we do today in terms of taking pictures. So we can forgive him for that.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

We can forgive him for that one. Well, the claim that he drew it from memory and had it later reproduced is like it doesn't even come from him.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

So he never he never said that himself.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

No, and we'll hear more about that later in the episode. Got it. So be before we delve into the origins of the alleged banner itself, I wanted to talk a little bit about Romero Vargas y Turbide. Unfortunately, however, there exists almost no information about his personal history. And most of the claims made about him come from second-hand sources from within the Mexicayot movement. In the book, Hijos del Sexto Sol, or Children of the Sixth Sun, which, if you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It's only available in Spanish, and I don't know how widely available it is, but if you could find it, I I I recommend buying it. Um Its author, Francisco de la Penya, notes about Iturbide.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

We'll be back after a quick break.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Okay, so let's say you've got the Mexica calendar for the upcoming year, and you want to know a little bit more about the philosophy and worldview associated with the ancestral calendar system. Or maybe you're curious about the individual feasts that are held in connection with each of the months. Well, dear listeners, I've got you covered, because my new book, Never Will It Be Lost, is now available. It features beautiful cover art provided by the amazing artist Mikorazon Mexica, and it's packed with full color images from the codices. In it, I go over each of the monthly feasts, and I provide some guidance and suggestions on how these feasts can be celebrated today. I also go into the Mexica worldview, cosmovision, and philosophy, and I talk about how we, as modern-day Mesoamerican descendants, can connect with and actualize this philosophy in the modern world. I'm super proud of this book. Again, it's called Never Will It Be Lost: Ritual, Remembrance, and the Aztec Calendar by yours truly, the curly Tlaboyawa. And if you order it using the link in the show notes, you get five dollars off. So if you want to support independent, indigenous Chigano media, please consider picking it up.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

We do not have many details about his life, but according to information provided to me by some of his acquaintances, we know that he belonged to a rich family, that Romero Vargas's father was governor of the state of Puebla in the Porfirian era, and that on his mother's side he considered himself a descendant of Emperor Iturbide. Hmm. Hmm. It is stated that he had five doctorates. Five doctorates. Wow. Five. Two from the University of how do you say that? Levin? I have no idea. Leuven? Leuven in law and theology, two from the Pontifical University in Rome, and one in Mexico from the UNAM. In his books, Romero Vargas appears as a doctor in law, philosophy, social sciences, theology, and history. Professor of history at the Faculty of Higher Studies of the Michoacana University of San Nicolas de Hidalgo, member of the Mexican Society of Geography and Statistics, Director of the Anahuac Culture Research Institute, and President of the Anahuac Law Academy. These last two organizations were founded by none other than Rodolfo Nieva Lopez of the MCRCA Fain. However, despite his degrees, Romero Vargas was marginal in the academic environment, and perhaps due to his ideas, his attempts to enter the Institute of Historical Research of the UNAM were unsuccessful. Man, that's too bad. Indeed, Romero Vargas is the most important representative of Mexicayor in the field of historical research. His works are a rewriting. Of ancient history from an anti-Spanish and anti-European perspective in general, and aim to reveal the quote-unquote authentic history of the indigenous world beyond what he considers the lies and slander invented by the conquerors, the friars, and the chroniclers of the colonial era. So he's probably the guy that's responsible for a lot of the um the anti-Spanish sentiment that that streak that runs through a lot of Mexicayo, him and Neva Lopez, probably, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Yeah, I'm I'm sure. And um I mean, I'm just throwing this out there, but how likely is it that if you had these kind of credentials that you could not, you know, get into the uh Unam of all places? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like like you you can't get into this organization, this historical organization, uh, the Institute of Historical Research of the UNAM with all these credentials? I mean, yeah. Something something smells fishy, my friends. Yeah. Uh the stories, obviously, about Romero Vargas certainly strain credulity. De La Pena goes on to note that.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

According to a story spread among Mexicanistas, Romero Vargas's ideas on the Galpuli inspired Mao Zedong to organize China's agrarian reform based on peasant communes. It is said that Chuen Lai wrote a letter to Romero Vargas requesting his permission to translate his thesis on the political organization of the peoples of Onawak into Chinese, and that he spent eight months in that country in 1959 at the invitation of both political leaders, whom he had supposedly met in Paris when he was a student. Another surprising story tells that Romero Vargas was a member of the Vatican Library, where he supposedly had access to pre-Hispanic documents and objects jealously hidden by the Vatican, including the Pantli or flag standard that belonged to Quitlawag and that has become the emblem of Mexicayon. According to those close to him, Romero Vargas's solid theological training made him aspire to a cardinalate in the Vatican, but apparently the crisis of conscience, well, the crisis of conscience stemming from his discoveries about Mexico's past led him to abandon all political religious pretensions and dedicate himself fully to the cause of Mexicayor, unlike his predecessor, Torbido the Emperor, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Uh it should be noted I can find absolutely no evidence whatsoever to corroborate any of these stories. No. Um and I look, man, believe me. I've I've spent years trying to track down a lot of these claims, like especially the one about Mao Zedong. Yeah. Like I've I've done deep dives into trying to corroborate that story, and I just cannot.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

That story still makes the rounds. I mean, I still hear from time to time, and when I'm uh in certain Kalpuli Avansa events and talking to folks, and when the pantli comes up and Vargas comes up, is like that story is one that is still circulating, so it's interesting how these things just kind of stick.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah. Well, in um his book Uh Los Goviernos Socialista de Anahuac. Um if I remember correctly, there's even a claim that there's a statue of Iturbide. I believe so, yes, yes, yes. Right? Isn't that one of the claims? I think so. Um De La Peña's short section on Romero Vargas wraps up by detailing the troubles he encountered later in life.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Romero Vargas apparently spent the last years of his life in a precarious situation with serious problems of alcoholism, and it is known that due to problems with his family, he was disinherited. In fact, in his legal defense, he was assisted by none other than his attorney Rodolfo Nieva Lopez from the MCRCA. In any case, a mythical aura surrounds this character who died in 1980, whose singular career is the reason for the most diverse praise among the supporters of Mexicayon. Man, that is that's kind of sad to know that about him. It is.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah, yeah, that's that's a drag. And um, and honestly, I mean, apart from what Gemes says about him and what's in this book by uh De La Pena, um, there's almost no other information available about him. Yeah. Like if you find the uh the official MCRCA website and you click on him, it's only a photo of him. Like no biography whatsoever, no information, just a photo. So that's uh that's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

And that picture that circulates uh of him is kind of interesting, right? Like he's wearing this weird like little cap.

unknown 27:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Isn't it true that he also liked to dress like he was a pontiff of some sort? Like he he had pretensions of being like a priest or some bishop, and that's kind of like the outfit that he used to go out in public, and and that's the the picture, the one the the most famous picture of him is him dressed in that bishop get up with a funny hat.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

God damn it. So uh now that we've taken a look at Romero Vargas y Turbide, let's explore the banner itself. The banner of Cuitlawak. Like the information about Romero Vargas's past, details surrounding the alleged banner are equally scarce. And I should mention they they call it the banner of Cuitlawak because allegedly, and I have no idea how he would even know this, this is the war banner that Cuitlawak had with him or with his troops during the Battle of Otumba when they drove out the Spanish on the Noche Triste or the Night of Victory, uh the night of victory, right? Um but I've read descriptions of the Battle of Otumba, and it doesn't detail anything like that. So I don't know where he got or where anyone got that information from.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

I mean, if you have uh a battle where the the people who end up on the losing side were victorious, it's kinda like Cinco de Mayo, right? You know, it's like uh in the end, I mean eventually Mexico kicks out the French, but the Cinco de Mayo victory was a singular victory in that struggle of the the invasion by France. And in the same way, that that Otumba battle was one of those singular victories that occurred right before the eventual downfall. And so you have to have something that symbolizes that, and so why not come up with a banner? And yeah, it makes sense. Say that it was it was the one that Kwitlawak uh took to battle and was victorious, and so take that as the standard for the resistance moving forward. Good if true. Hey, make that part of the standard narrative.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah, right? We're just yeah, we're adding it right now. We're adding it right now. Um so in regards to the banner itself, Romero Vargas only mentions the banner once in any of his writings. His only mention of the banner comes from volume three of his book Moctesuma El Magnifico, Y La Invasion de Anahuac. And I just so happen to have a copy of it.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

The description of this glorious flag, the Shoshoki, blue-green, or turquoise blue, was a symbol of the absolute sovereignty, of power, of justice, of all the material, physical, and moral elements, the conjunction of the thirteen heavens, of the colours of the universe and of the elements that produce human life, represented by Witilopochli and Tlalok, lords of the earth. Tlatekutin, color that could only be used by sovereign rulers and not those subordinated to others. It was the color of the Waitlatwani, whose kopili was of turquoise, and the mantle and flag were of the same color. On the field of Shoshoki colored sovereignty shines Tonatiu, he who walks shining like fire, like the sun, like divine and fiery Magei, illuminates the universe with his leaves of light, the Lord who gives us life. In the center of the sun, backlit, the august figure of the same, as in Teotihuacan on the staircase of Getzalquat, where we can contemplate the same solar symbol with its leaves of light, in which is the head of an animal that looks like an aslat from the front and snakes in profile, symbols of the sun and of the sovereign and dual divinity, as in Tenoshtitlan, where the sun is represented as a triumphant eagle, as described by the ignorant father Duran J. Acosta and the Ramirez Codex. At the same time, the eagle uttered the solar cry of war and triumphed At Tlacinoli, water and fire. The sun and the ocean where the former springs up and disappears daily to give life of the inhabitants of Anawak, the glyphs corresponding to these symbols of water and fire. In later generations when they were no longer understood, were confused with the snake, which for Nawa thought would have been absurd, since the snake is a symbol of divine wisdom, and the earth could not have as an enemy the solar eagle, who for the Anawakas was the one who fertilized it. The first to incur in this absurd error, as we have previously explained, was the translator of Alvarado Tesosomok. Since this is in Nahuat, the text does not do so, but says the place where snakes hiss, end quote. Iwan Kowat Isomo Cayan. According to tradition, the eagle with open wings was resting on a cactus that had sprouted in a copigal's heart, the enemy of the Mexicans, from where the solar eagle reigned over the remains of the defeated. The three rocks symbolize the triple foundation of the Federation of the Valley of Mexico, Tenochtitlan, Tetsuco, and Tlacopan.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Hell, even the story I kicked this episode off with comes entirely from second-hand sources. Iturbide never bothered to put the details of his alleged discovery into writing. I own all his books, every single one, and the only mention of the banner at all comes from those two pages from volume three of his book Moktezuma El Magnifico. Any other Mechikayot-related publication that references this image simply repeats, often verbatim, the text from that book. So as you can guess, this raises some interesting questions, such as, why should anyone believe Iturbide's story on face value? Especially considering his involvement with the MCRCA, the Movimento Confederado Restaurador de la Cultura Nahuac, a group, as we have mentioned multiple times on this podcast, notorious for pushing pseudo-historical myths, meant more to instill nationalist pride than to convey historical fact. Why didn't he document his amazing discovery in an academic journal or a book? I mean, he had five doctorates. You would think he he knew how to get information out to the public. Of course, he didn't have to.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I mean, even Esparsa with the Neppo Waltzinim had, you know, the common sense to at least do two books on that one topic. Right?

SPEAKER_02 34:49

He was like, I'm gonna get my fill from this, you know? Um allegedly, I I I should also note, I do not believe that he held five doctorates, if that's what it sounded like. I mean, who believes that? Nobody with the doctorate believes that. I mean, I'm a doctor, but I ain't thinking a doctor. Uh, did he ever even work at the Vatican in any capacity at all? Much less as the personal secretary to the Pope? Because Yeah, that's so weird. Like, what are you Like who is this guy? He's the personal secretary to the Pope? With five doctorates. With five doctorates?

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Also, allegedly he spoke eight languages, uh, which is not impossible, but he's anti-European, he's anti-Spanish, but yet he's allowed to go to the Vatican as the Pope's boy. As the Pope's boy?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

I mean, that is so weird. Uh, what's up with all these weird claims about Iturbide having five doctorate degrees and being a direct descendant of Agustin the Iturbide, the self-appointed emperor of the first Mexican Empire that lasted from 1821 to 1823 following independence from Spain? Like that just seems I don't know. There's there's a lot going on with this dude.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I mean, was his name actually Iturbide? That's a g Or was that something that he glommed on just to give himself an air of Yeah. Mystery.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Imperialism, empire, and um mostly Monarchy. Why the hell doesn't this alleged banner even closely resemble traditional Mesoamerican artwork? Like, at all. When you look at this alleged banner of Quitlawak, it does not look like any representation seen in codices, in murals, in It does seem like an anomaly, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yes. Especially if it's supposed to be something that was produced at the time of the the the revolution between the Spanish allies and the Mexica of that war, like you would think that the banner would resemble more the artistic style of that time. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Uh obviously, these are far too many questions to tackle in this single episode. But I promise you, dear listener, we will return to this topic at a future date. But for now, I want to focus on the many differences that we were just discussing between the banner and traditional Mexica and Mesoamerican artistic styles. So for this section, I'm gonna be drawing from an excellent presentation made by Licenciado Caneque Estrada Pena and drawing from my own personal knowledge of Mesoamerican symbolism and iconography. The sun. So the glyph traditionally used to represent the sun in Mexica artwork contains several distinct stylistic attributes. It's made up of numerous concentric circles. Uh the primary rays are cardinally oriented to four directions and are almost always triangular in shape. And the glyph sometimes appears along with the sign for movement or nawi olin, which is all always associated with the sun. In comparison, the sun, as it appears on the alleged banner, is interesting to say the least. For starters, it has eleven rays shooting off in all directions without any sort of symmetrical distribution. The rays are not the triangular shape we would expect to see in traditional Mexica artwork, and in fact, they bear an undoubted resemblance to the sculptures at the temple of Quetzalkowat in Teotihuacan, which he actually mentions, right? He's he says, well, the what does he call them? He calls them uh leaves of light or leaves of light. It's it's uh it's interesting that he mentions that because he is probably like, well, people are gonna say that I just ripped it off from it, so I'm gonna point it out first.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

That uh But also I'm trying to remember back back then, wasn't there this idea that the reason that the sun had 11 rays had to do something with the number of planets and what was it? Something else? I'm glad you brought that up, sir. I think didn't planet Nibiru or the Planet X supposedly was one of those that our ancestors knew existed and they somehow it made it onto the banner.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Yeah, remember that?

SPEAKER_02 39:43

So I'm glad you brought that up because the story was the eleven rays represented the nine planets of our solar system, plus the sun, plus the eleventh planet that our ancestors knew about.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

You know, I don't know who started that, but I can take a guess as to who might have been the author of that line. Yeah, does his name rhyme with uh Moshilamolat? It it sounds a lot like Chafa Lot. Chafa Lotor.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, I could see that. I think you're correct. I would I would venture to guess. I would venture to guess the creator of that particular myth. The eagle. So when eagles are represented in the traditional Mexica style, they are always shown covered with feathers all over their body with a short neck and small ridges on the neck. When they are presented in polychrome images, the eagle is usually painted brown. And most importantly, the body is almost always shown in profile. In fact, I personally, in all my research, have never found an image of an eagle not presented in profile. Uh there is a drum, uh the Malinalko drum, I believe, which has a figure on it which might be an eagle. It's hard to distinguish what it's supposed to be, but it is facing forward, kind of. So that's the only discrepancy I've ever seen in that. And I don't even know if it's supposed to be an eagle.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

I think you're looking in the wrong place, Curly. I think you need to be looking at some of the Maya iconography because isn't there a famous Maya glyph showing? I'm not even sure if it's an actual eagle, but of some kind of winged bird that is shown facing forward with the wings kind of uh spread out. There might be, but I mean, this is supposed to be a Mexica design. Right. But I'm thinking, I mean, if you're just mixing and matching here, I mean, who's gonna be the wiser? No.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Um but the eagle in the banner of Quitlawak, the alleged banner of Quitlawak, follows none of those artistic conventions. The eagle is presented facing forward with its wings spread and its head facing to the left. Now, this is an important fact because it really, really looks like the European style, like Habsburg eagles, right? Those imperial eagles from from Europe. And even more so, if you take the eagle from the alleged banner of Cuitlawak and you compare it to the eagle from the flag of the first Mexican Empire, they are posed exactly the same. Like you could get the one and just superimpose it on top of the other.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Like it's it's a Was he paying an homage to his uh so-called Iturbida as alleged ancestor?

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Yeah, who knows what the the cause for that was, right? It just seems convenient. Uh the plumage is not noticeable except for on the wings, and it only has one crest. Uh the neck is way too long. Like when you look at the the banner of Cuitlawa. It does look like a more like a crane, yeah. Yeah, its neck is extended far too long. And the wing joints are way too prominent. I mean, it it looks nothing like a Mexica style eagle, is what I'm saying. And perhaps most importantly, the body is completely black. Like it's sh basically showing the eagle in silhouette and it makes use of negative space. And the Mesoamericans, no matter where, did not make use of negative space. This is a style never seen in Mexica artwork.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Again, Curly, this is your lack of imagination showing here. I mean, have you considered that maybe what um Romero Here was was doing was maybe he was uh inspired by an alebrijo type figure. Right? Has the neck of of a crane, has the wings with the joints of a bag the heart of a lion the heart of a lion and it was painted black completely black.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

The nopal in Mexica artwork, the nopal grows vertically from its trunk. The stalks on the sides always emerge from a vertical axis, and emphasis is placed on showing or representing its flowers and prickly pears, which are generally exaggerated in larger proportion to the stalks, and they have very large thorns. So in traditional Mexica artwork, the nopal is almost, you know, it goes it grows upwards, and the the nopals come off the side, but they also angle upwards, and the flowers and and the prickly pears are huge on these, and they're always prominent. But the nopals, the nopales depicted on the banner grow out horizontally across the bottom. Uh they're not distributed from a central axis or trunk, and they do not contain any representations of prickly pears or flowers, which is a little unusual. Yeah, very unusual. The atlacinoli. In the traditional Mexica style, the symbols of water and fire or atlacinoli appear in the form of two differentiated bands, and each one with elements that relate to it. So the fireband has a fire motif, and the water band has snails in chalchiwites inside of it. And despite being united, they're not like one continuous object. It's obviously two objects representing two different things that are just connected at the at the center. Um, and most importantly, these bands are always depicted. The atlacinoli is always depicted as emerging from the mouths of various war-related characters. Similar to when you look at the codices and there's that little speech symbol, it's emerging from the mouth, right? It's like it's not being held in the mouth, it's outside of the mouth coming forward to designate that that person is talking. And the atlacinoli is always represented in the same way. There's an open mouth, and then the atlacinoli is like coming out of it. Um what do you think that is? I I don't know why that differentiation is made. But uh they never hold them, they never hold that symbol in the mouth or or beaks. But the atlacinoli glyph in the alleged banner of Quitlawak, they are not uh separate, they're presented as a single linear band with two sides, and the glyph is not emerging from the eagle's beak, but the eagle is holding it in its beak as if it were a physical object.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Um essentially So So it's like replacing the snake that currently exists in the Mexican flag that we have today, except now he's like, Well, it wasn't a snake, actually.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

It was the Atlacinoli, but I'm gonna represent it in the same style that they're repres that they're showing the snake in. The snake. Which isn't how we would have done it at all.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

How the Mexico So that's another tell here that this this so-called banner of Kutlawa it doesn't date to the pre Quatemokera.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Yeah. Um essentially, none of the elements depicted in the alleged banner have any similarity whatsoever to traditional artistic styles used by the Mexica people. And this being the case, why bother to fabricate a fictitious banner when there already exists multiple authentic representations of eagles with a nopal and atlaccinoli imagery in extant artifacts, codices, murals, carvings, like we have actual images of eagles on on cactuses with the atlacinoli emerging from their mouth. Why didn't they just use that? Like why it's simple.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Why invent it? It's simple, Curly is because why we wouldn't be sitting here talking about doctor Romero Vargasitur all these years later. I mean, he he succeeded in extending his legacy beyond what it would have been because I mean, as you described early on, his attempts at being successful through the usual academic circles were unsuccessful. And so what better way than to you know give the finger to the establishment and say, I'm gonna go the opposite route, and guess what? People are gonna remember me, they're gonna remember my work, they're gonna remember this banner that I created, even though I'm saying it's not mine. Wink wink. If you if you dig deep enough, you'll find that it's me. But actually, going back to that, didn't we at one point suspect that this person by the name of Estrella Newman, who was an artist, was also associated with the MCRCA, which at some point we're gonna do an episode on her. Um, didn't we suspect that perhaps she was the person who maybe was um uh that it would be the tasked with painting?

SPEAKER_03 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah, like can you do this for me? Yeah, like maybe he gave her the idea, like a little sketch, and he said, Can you make this happen? Make this make this be a thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

I I and I still suspect we're right because if you look at Estrella Newman's paintings, um, especially the ones that she did for those in the MCRCA and that in that style, right? Promoting the Mexicayot, that style that she uses is like freaking identical to the way that the alleged banner of Quitlawak looks. Like it stylistically, they're very, very similar, down to the colors that she uses and just the basic iconography that that she uses. So I think we're on to something there. Unfortunately, we'll never know, right? Because they've they've both passed away long ago. And I don't think anybody who actually knows the truth is too eager to come out and um let it be known, unfortunately. But we could be wrong if we got any listeners out there who want to step forward and with a smoking gun of who painted this banner, uh please uh please feel free to do so. Yeah, one thing that would be awesome. One thing that I found uh while researching this this episode is a petition on change.org. Remember change.org? That's still around. Apparently. So, well, this is an old petition. So this petition was started on uh November twelfth, twenty fourteen. That is pretty old at this point. And the petition is called La Restitution del Pantli o Bandera de Quitlawak que se encuentra in el Archivo Secreto Vaticano.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Wow, so someone has said, okay, we're trying to get the the so-called Hedris of Motecusoma back. We also need to get the box. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

And then there'll be a new guy whose last name is also Iturbide, and he'll be like, hey, by the way, if you're looking for an emperor. And so in English, that uh the petition says the petition for the return of the Bantli or Kuitlawak flag from the Vatican secret archives. And it's like, well, if these archives are secret, how do we know what's well anyway? How does every how does everyone know about these secret archives? And uh so the text associated with the uh the petition says the flag of Cuitlawak was used by the important Mexica warrior Cuitlawak, the night of June 30th, 1520, to defend the city of Tenochtitlan against the invaders. In nineteen seventy-three to nineteen seventy-five, we learned through Father Ignacio Romero Vargas Iturbide. So now he's father. Father. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

He's been he's been grandfathered into father.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Uh we learned through Father Ignacio Romero Vargas Iturbide, the Pope's personal secretary, then that the flag was kept at the Vatican secret archive. So now I have a date, right? Let's I wonder if I could find out who the Pope's personal secretary was in 1973 to 1975.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

But you know, e even if the date's wrong, I mean, how can you trust the dates of anyone who is petitioning on change dot org of all places to have a fictitious banner returned to the bigger thing? Yeah. But at least I mean who's supposed to receive this banner? Who are they petitioning on behalf of is it the Mexican government? Who? Yeah. Who's supposed to get this banner back?

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Well, it's it's um it's written to Susantidad Papa Francisco. Casa Santa Marta, Cita del Vaticano. So straight to the Pope, baby. Straight to the Pope. It says the symbology of this flag is very important for the Mexica culture. It represents the cosmovision, the philosophy, the harmony with oneself and with life. The life for us is the truth seen and lived by our ancestors, not the one from the history books. We ask the Vatican for the restitution of the original relic to Mexico, so it can be recognized and honored as it deserves. So it got four hundred and seventeen signatures, and I don't think the Pope ever responded.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

But you know why, right? You know why the Pope never saw it? It's because they didn't tap into Esparza's idea of using reason. Yeah. There we go. And and telechimie, or what was that word? Eltimiche, or Timiki. And telechi. They're not they're not completely fully actualized people. That's why their petition failed. It's a it's a personal failure. That's what it is here.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

So what's funny is when I first got that book, Juicio Espania, I was showing it to Michelle. So this was like 90 six, ninety-seven, I think. And you know, I was all in at that point. I was like a gung-ho fucking Mexicayok warrior. Yeah. Super Mexica right there. Yeah. And uh what's funny is Michelle looked at it. She's like, how come that doesn't look like any of the stuff we see at the museum? And I was like, I was like, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Michelle, she's always she's always been very, very astute in in piercing through the beads. Yeah. This is not the first time. Yeah. Because I recall several instances from back then where she made me pause and think, hmm, okay, yeah. So she pointed that out.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Interesting point, Michelle. Yeah. Of course, my cognitive dissonance at the time was like, well, I mean, it's what Romero Varga said, and it's what all the Mexicayo people said.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

So I mean, it's like the X-Files you wanted to believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

I was moldered to my scully. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

That's right. And uh I've other people in Dansa who do not ascribe to you know this image in particular. My favorite response I've gotten is uh a friend, a mutual friend of ours, looked at it and said, Man, I just think it's fucking ugly.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Hey, to each other, I mean um beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:35

But so going back to the the rays around it, um I just think it's so funny that when you look at the the temple of Quetzalcoat at Teotihuacan, it looks exactly like the the leaves. It does. Or or feathers or whatever they're supposed to be that go around Quetzalcoat's head.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

But the difference, the difference with the banner is that the leaves aren't necessarily kind of straightforward as those are at the temple. These are kind of like wavy, yeah, right? Yeah. Like a little bit wavy, and which is why he calls them like leaves, right? So I think he took the the word leaf a little too far with this interpretation here for the banner. Like he he was probably envisioning like some leaves in the fall blowing in the breeze. Um, yeah, that's it. That's that's what I'm going for. And Estadia Numa was like, alright, I got you, man. I got you.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

What's uh what's funny is is so back in the day when I first encountered this flag, I didn't have like a poster of it or or you know a screen printed image of it. I just had what was in what what you could see online and and what was in the book Juicio a Espania. So I took it upon myself to draw one. And so I drew one and I colored it and I fucked up one of those the rays. And it's funny because I still see people using my drawing of it, and I could tell it's mine. I think I have a because like a like uh what is it, like an eight by eleven?

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Eleven by seventeen is is how I used to make.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And uh one of the the the rays is fucked up, and that's how I can tell when somebody's using my version of it, and they're like, This is the banner, and I'm like, hey, I drew that.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

You know, I've come across people too over the years where I've transcribed, for instance, uh the thing that I transcribed, and this is going back almost 20 years now, um, was um uh Jack D. Forbes uh mestizo essay in the book Asticas and I transcribed it word for word, and and back then, this is before I went to school, and I didn't know like how you were supposed to do endnotes and like how that worked. And so I just copied it verbatim as as it was printed, and all the endnotes are at the end, and and to this day I can tell who's using my version of that that essay because the end notes are exactly as the way that I typed them up almost 20 years ago. And they're like, Yes, we got I wrote or whatever they make all these claims about, but yeah, it's Forbes work, but still it's like I typed that, it took me hours.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

Give me some credit here, man. Right? Damn, bro. At least give credit where credit's due. Exactly. We keep coming back to that.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

The the thing about this flag is I keep seeing it pop up on t-shirts. And look, I'm not trying to take anybody's money, right? People want to buy a flag with this image on it, a t-shirt with this shit. I have a t-shirt with this image on it, right? But when you look at the people selling merchandise related to this image, it just repeats that same story, like without question. No question at all. This is the real Mexican flag. This the real Mexican flag should have the Atla Chinoli, and and this one was discovered in the Vatican. In fact, once I was at UNM giving a talk about calendar systems and and how they were represented in the Tonalamat, in the you know, spread spreadsheet style, codices, accordion style, yeah. And um I told everybody, hey, there's a cool story because I was using images from the Tonalamat Albin as part of my represent my presentation. And I said, if there's time after this talk, remind me and I'll tell you a cool story about the Tonalamat Albin. And so sure enough, my talk ends, and somebody in the audience is like, Hey, can you tell us that story? So I tell them the story about how you know we did an episode on it, so I'm not gonna recount the story here, but if you look up the episode, but it's a very cool story, and somebody in the back raises his hand and he's like, Well, that sounds very similar to the story of Romero Vargas y Turbide, who went to the Vatican Secret Archives, and I'm like, Holy shit, that story gets around, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Yep, it's still being told. Yep, as I said, it's still being told. And when we I just remembered. Go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Go ahead. No, and I was just gonna say that, you know, when people who are selling the merchandise with it on it, you know, I'll I do I don't do it aggressively, I'll just say, hey, you know, that image actually, you know, there's some questions about that image. And uh they just respond with like, how dare you! You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

You're questioning the ancestors. The memory of our ancestors and okay, all right. So um I don't I mean, we don't have to get into it here, but I just it just uh occurred to me that when we talk when you're talking about the uh the image of Ketalquat and the rays, and it it reminded me of uh the conversation that we've had on Discord with some of the uh the supporters that are on Discord about how there's talk, there's rumors, and perhaps this can be its own episode. I don't know if you've done um a dispatch on it, but there's talk of perhaps it not being a serpent head, but actually something else. You want to say something about that real briefly?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Yeah, so there's and what's interesting is Iturbide alludes to that, right? Yeah, he he does.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

That that's why that's what made me think of it too.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:41

It's like I was just thinking about it. And uh I saw a video recently that alludes to it too, and I'll I'll tell you about it in a second. Um so the thought is that the the Quetzalcoat, the image of Quetzalcoat that we all just know as like the feathered serpent, right, for lack of a better um translation. Um is a serpent. But there is a school of thought amongst mainstream archaeologists and historians, the Mesoamericanists, that it actually represents a uh more of like a magical creature, like a mythic creature that's a combination of different animals. And that if you look at it, and I, you know, I do want to investigate it further because I've seen images that they're showing me as proof, and I'm like, oh wow, that I think they're onto something. Because if you look at depictions of wolves, um some of them look very much like the uh the profiles of the images of Quetzalcoa. So it's like from it looks like a snake wolf hybrid, right? And so there are some people investigating that currently. And I thought that was interesting because when I was in Belize, there was a group of people working on preserving uh jaguars. And they did this video presentation that we saw. I I didn't see it in person, but I saw the video of the presentation, and they're talking about how jaguars are a big part of the the cultural, you know, heritage of the area and and the Maya people have always looked to the jaguars, and they're showing um temples with images on it, heads that look like you know, there it would be Kukulkan, not Quetzalkoat, but they look like Kukulkan heads, but they have like jaguar-ish attributes, and this is the word jaguar. This jaguar preservation group of Maya were like, like, you know, yeah, it's always been part of our culture, the the images of the jaguars. I was like, huh. And then we have what you know Iturbide wrote where he talks about, and I'll pull it up, yeah, right here. Um as in the Teot as in Teotihuacan on the staircase of Quetzalcoat, where we can contemplate the same solar symbol with its leaves of light, in which is the head of an animal that looks like an Oselo from the front and a snake in profile. So that's interesting. I wonder how long that idea's been around.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

So he I mean, so it urbide had a few, or Romeo Vargas, I should say, instead of Iturbide, had a few moments of of uh where he he was catching on to some stuff, but just he just couldn't, he was so trapped in his in his uh Mexicayo el Mexicanista mindset that he couldn't get around it. So but I mean it's interesting because this also is very reminiscent. I don't know if you've seen this. There's a documentary from the 80s of this uh flying dog um animal that's kind of elongated like a like a snake. I've seen that documentary by the by the name of is it Falkor?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Falcor, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

Falcor, yeah. So so there's president. Now people have been talking about this for a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Oh man, that movie. Um I think everybody our age was like traumatized by a particular scene from that movie where uh the horse in the quicksand. In the horse. Holy smokes.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:31

I know, man. A trayu.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

Oh, the 80s.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Never-ending story. It's a never-ending story, man. Never ending. And it's a never-ending story with these, I'm telling you. Nice callback.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

Well, you know why? It's because they don't like the truth, my friend. What is it about that truth that they don't like so much? Well, the truth, it's like medicine.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

It doesn't always taste good, but it is always good for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Never ending story.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:16

God damn it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

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