Intro 0:17
This is the journey. Welcome back to We Love Science podcast, this is the journey episode. Here, our guest star shares more about the discovery of science and how mentors and experiences shaped who they are today. To hear more about the work associated with this journey, please check out the previous episode.
Shekerah Primus 0:42
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the show--We Love Science. Today we've been talking with Dr. Jishad Kumar, a theoretical physicist and researcher at Aalto University in Finland. That's a country I would love to visit. So, Jishad we're going to jump into the journey segment of our conversation just to hear your stories about your career journey and basically how you got to this point in your career. So whether you got funny stories, inspiring stories, just keep it real stories. We love them all.
Okay, so we'd like to start the segment with your earliest memories involving science. So first, did you have a science spark or any science wow moments growing up?
Jishad Kumar 1:38
Well, I would say that in the schools like probably the sixth or seventh standards. And there was like it was there was no physics chemistry, but that was a general science course. And we had a teacher and he used to come to the class with some cool and small. I don't know. The names. Kaleidoscope, telescope, something like that. I mean, basically related to optics. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was not advanced. He was just very curious. Like we were like these small kids, but for our level to understand like, what is this? Of course, at that age you could, like I'm really curious about No, like, Okay, let me look into this and see what's happening there inside and how the light is transmitted through this
Shekerah Primus 2:31
What age is that?
Jishad Kumar 2:32
I'm just like, 12 I think.
And I was really attracted to that and I went back home, and I tried asking my father, like, can you please make one of these equipment for me so that I can also look at? My father was not from science. He was basically a commerce graduate so he had no idea about what I'm talking in.
He immediately refused.
We should talk to your teacher and ask more about what is that and how to construct or how to like, make one of the kind but you know, at that advice. Yeah, that small age we were not like, delighted to go to the teacher personally and ask; I mean, I was really really afraid he was going to scold me or not, because this was not a part of the curriculum. Rather, he was just showing it to us that you know, there are certain things which are very interesting. So I was afraid if I go and ask him again, sir, can you tell me how we made this and he is probably going to scold; so I stopped myself going to his office. But that remained in my mind for quite some time and think I think during my 10th grade, or probably 11th, or something that I had a small exhibition at school; then there are like technical schools around my, my, my school was like a very small, not not very well known organization. It's a small school from the village, but there were like technical colleges and schools surrounding and those people came with this is like most modern instruments during that time, and showed us. So I found that, you know, that cute equipment again, in this meeting, and I could talk to those people who came up with the equipments and asked them, how did you make it? I mean, what does, I mean, what all components you need to create this at home. But trust me at the 12th grade, I made something like that with my friends. And, you know, I understood at that age I understood that I have some kind of interest towards science. Of course, I was like, I was participating in all the programs in schools like, we have this festivals, youth festival we called it. I was participating in programs, like I could draw something, I could sing, and I was playing some instruments. So what I mean, I was also bit confused, like, what am I? What I can do? If you know my teachers were asking all of, all the students in the class that I mean, he was asking you individually, like what do you want to become in the future? I told him, I think I told him I want to become an elephant rider when I was like I remember. So the end of the 12th grade, I was wanting to become a police officer. Because I saw some police officer with a gun and he was like six feet or 6.5 feet
tall. When I was like, Wow. I should also become like this.
The science spark, it was with me for some time. Then I understood at that stage that, I probably it was in high school. Yeah. Okay, I'm I'm probably made for science. Not for all these other things because I'm not a physically well built or six-seven feet tall or something like that. So I decided that probably this is, this is a time where I should think about what next and I think in the high schools, you know, the classes were not that interesting, because we have had lots of guest lecturers. I would say that they were, they just got graduated and came to teach with little teaching experience, so they could not handle us properly. Yeah, I was getting a little bored about all these things. I mean, but surprisingly, we had a new mathematics teacher, and he was awesome, keeping us, just really awesome. I mean, he taught, he taught, very smartly. I mean, I think in the 10 plus two grade, you will probably learn mathematics like differential equations, integration, trigonometric functions, geometry, so many technical things. And if your teacher is not teaching you properly, you probably won't understand something. But this, this proper mathematics teacher was like really good in explaining the concepts and why do you want to do the questions and why you write the questions. I mean, he was very clear in what he is speaking. And then I was a class stopper basically. And during that the first examinations I got like, I mean, we had a marking system in India, and it was like 150 marks that was the highest mark, you get; and I got something like 148. Well, I mean, I don't know. So then I understood, I mean, something teachers and friends also said, you have, you have some kind of a knack for mathematics problem; probably very good at mathematics. So, you know, but that age, maybe around 16 or 17. You're a teenager. So it's difficult to take a decision or you can't judge yourself, but somebody should be telling you very forcefully that you know, this is the way you should move on. Or this is what it is for you. But I don't think someone has told me that. This is the way it is etcetera and my dad my family, nobody is from the science background so they cannot tell me too much about it. Yeah, so but at the towards the end of this schooling session. I had a fantastic physics teacher. He was basically a priest in a church but partly he was teaching at school. And he was again like this mathematics teacher. He was probably, probably the guy who gave me the spark into physics. I actually had lost some of the classes due to some illness and I had to stay back at home for a couple of weeks, that I last a few classes. So this teacher was so you know, I don't know, he was even, I was like his pet. So he took me to his home. And he taught me all the classes I lost. In a very, yeah, it was so super. And that experience was always in my mind. And towards the end of this class. Yeah, he I don't know whether he understood or whether he just, you know, just decided it, or I'm not sure like, why did he say, but he said Jishad you have a good appetite in physics as well as in mathematics. Maybe your strength is in mathematics, but you see, mathematics is kind of an abstract subject, which probably you won't be able to do much. But if you think about an application of mathematical principles to say some real systems or real science, for example, you probably would make a claim. So then I thought, yeah, well, I think exactly. So the last examination I was taught in school, I got around 150, out of 150, mathematics, and around 138, or something out of physics, in physics. So I think that's the time when I realized that I could do something in this. In fact, I was interested in biology too, and my wife is actually from biology. You know, my previous interest was in biology and my current interest is also in biology. Yeah, so then, I learned physics in my undergraduate courses. I had a I mean, I will say that, that not so good times during the times, because it's a local college and teachers were not that professional, not that qualified. So it's like, what to learn by his or her own so that's the way it was taught there. And I like that way. Because I think I, myself, my personalities, I learned everything on my own instead of relying on someone else's notes or class notes, which are scribbled from the board. Probably have to learn it all myself and I have the satisfaction. So I learned things kind of on my own. I think again, I was the college topper also, but I wouldn't count it as a big achievement because in India that time these examinations were a bit clumsy. And we had this marking system. The competition was pretty low. So it's easy. In some sense, it is easy. But I have the spark in physics, so I even during undergrad, so I said that I am from this remote village and, you know, to reach, to reach out to that better physics or the best part of the world where physics is treated very well. It was difficult for me, but I used to say at that time you remember that? There was no Google, no ChatGPT. So it was like all ChatGPT AIs are in the brain. So you will find ways to you know, solve things out. I remember like I we had to pay some stipulated amount of money to use the internet in the internet cafe. Maybe one hour you spend some 100 bucks and then we spent, I mean, the computers were so slow, extremely slow. You could probably go and take a bath or shower and come back; it was extremely slow. And if we wanted to start something, I had to start it yesterday. It was a tough time, but it's some of you know, desperation is the mother of invention. So you will definitely do something. So I used to use the cafe's once in a while, and I used to search out like where are these big physics. Now that in this condensed matter, statistical physics, nothing like that was in my mind. It was just physics. So I had a different heuristic idea about physics, not the specific parts of fields of research. I don't know but like I wrote to the colleges, like not not the colleges, universities like MIT. I wrote to this University College London, and wrote to Cambridge University and all that time I think I made my first email you know, the the email we communicated. That was my first email I created like 18 to 16 years ago.
But I was not using the emails; I just created, just for you know, because some of my friends said, I'm going to create a Gmail. I said, okay, let, please invite me I'm also going to create it or the use of it, because I was not using it anyway, like this. So, but, when I was searching for these positions, these universities are all, I thought it would be nice because on these universities webpages, towards the bottom side, you'll see contact us with a phone number. The phone number is difficult because it takes a lot of money for me to call from India. Then I asked one of our teachers like what, what is the best way to talk to these people? How can you reach out to them? And he said, Okay, well, why don't you write an email? So I copy the email, sent back to me, compose section and send it and I got replies from them. And also, fortunately, they sent this booklet with application forms and all that. I was wanting to go out, but you know, we had financial issues, it was not small issues, it has a severe financial issues. So it was difficult for me to do, to go abroad and have my studies done. Even though I may get a fellowship, but still this host, the hostels, how to travel etc., you need to take it up from your pay pocket, which was, which was actually difficult during that stage because my father was like a school teacher; he was not earning that much money. My mother was a housewife. So, I had a sister also. So it's pretty difficult at the time, so I somehow stopped my imagination of going abroad. And I went to do work, do a master's degree in university, which is again like not so far from my home. I could like go in the morning and come back in the night. I think I had good teachers, good lectures, and my understanding of physics as change from zero to one. So
Shekerah Primus 16:02
I'm pretty sure you're way above one. We're not even at one right? We're like negative.
Jishad Kumar 16:13
Okay. But you're, you're smart. You're smart in your subject and doing this kind of logistics, but I'm, I think I'm really bad at it.
Shekerah Primus 16:23
You are you, Yeah, we all have pros and cons and you know, you're you're good at what you're good at and other people are good at what they're good at. I just, can I just comment Jishad first, your memory is amazing. I love that you remember like all of your scores from when you were going to school like I can remember even one score. I mean, 138 over 150 and let's see what was it 130; I was like, Oh my God, How do you do it, how do remember? It was so, it's so well.
Jishad Kumar 16:59
I don't know.
Shekerah Primus 17:00
Kudos to you. That's amazing.
Jishad Kumar 17:05
Yeah, I love to hear that, but I don't know why I'm remembering all this but I think I don't forget I don't forget anything which happened in my life so far. Each and every moment is probably precious and I keep. I mean, sometimes people ask me, Why do you write a diary and I said, No, I don't need a diary. I remember all the things.
Shekerah Primus 17:28
If you get an eidetic memory, oh my gosh. I wish I had that. If you tell me something this one moment and I forgot, um, the second moment, so yeah, that is that is amazing. You know, that's great. I also wanted to say that I really loved how your story developed and it sounds like at first you were able to sort of analyze your own self and your own strengths and figure out okay, elephant trainer, maybe not so much. Police officer, maybe not so much. I'm not so athletic. You know, science. I am made for science. I just love, I love that you say that--I'm made for science; you chose right and we're happy to have you on the science side. So that was beautiful, you know, you figured out what you're not good, you are going into science. You love math. And you love physics, but then you had this teacher who sort of came in and was so special and was able to add that clarity for you and point you more towards physics. I feel like that's such a, such a really great way that your story developed; you did the hard work and then you had someone come in and be like, here. These are two paths. This one's for you.
Jishad Kumar 18:41
The funniest part is.
As I said I was a college topper in undergraduate, but when I went to the master's degree university so I came to know that I'm again like zero like, whenever when I got high marks in the college, I thought okay, I am a master of physics. I know something. I'm pretty good at it, something like that. I had a kind of idea like that when I go to masters, but the teachers at the masters university were excellent and they have a different perspective completely about understanding a student and delivering what they exactly want. And they knew that this because the university we had an entrance examination all the students I think we were like 20 people in the class; all 20 were like class toppers or college toppers from different colleges. Teachers know that they're all coming with some kind of an ego. They just wanted to, you know, suppress that ego and they actually made my foot on the ground. And they made it clear to people that you know, it's it's just a master's you don't know anything. Maybe you, you think that you have good marks and all but it's not the end of the world; it's starting of your life and so the masters were like kind of a mix of good and bad things and we a lot of troublesome days, like hectic examinations, laboratory experiments, extended practicals masters; this is like a lot of issues. But I enjoyed, I actually enjoyed; so that this this spark was there in my mind, I wanted a PhD, I wanted to do something like that. But I was not quite sure about like, what should I do or like where am I going to land like what subject will I be specializing in? Right, and in masters we had like four subjects to specialize. One was in condensed matter physics. One was in astrophysics, and one was in some computational physics and the other was experimental. So I understood that I was very bad at doing experiments because I broke so many things in the lab, so.
Yeah, there was an experiment in the college that you might have heard about the diffraction, something called diffraction readings. So it is a darkroom and you went in and you go inside and there are there are some techniques which you use to measure certain things; some you know, it is an optics related experiment. The moment when I went inside the dark room, I was really afraid. So I was not actually good at experiments I understood. I'm not that smart and expert at doing experiments and computer, computers of course not my favorite. Maybe I was not exposed prior to these courses. That could be a reason why I was not into computer but, right now I'm quite familiar, but that time I was not familiar with computer and I thought okay, well, I think I'm thinking I'm not that good at compared to the other two options, astrophysics and condensed matter physics. Astrophysics was like, you know, study of stars, galaxies. And I there was a book, by book, the title of the book was The Universe. And the company name was WH Freeman, that's probably United States. So this book had actually fascinated me for quite some time. There was a, there was kind of a bookshop and for an exhibition by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, NASA, in my place. They came to India to collaborate with the Indian Space Mission. And I made one working model of this robot, Spirit. You remember? The first robot NASA sent to Mars? Yeah, I with my friends, I made a working model. That's yeah. So I then decided that I'm going to do astrophysics. So this is, this was my first interest. But you know, when you think about more about astrophysics, all these things I didn't find much interest because, you know, universe is also like a philosophy object like you you probably don't know so many things. I mean, it's like, people are telling explanations, or maybe, you know, they can say some theorems of proofs that, you know, these galaxies are moving in this way because of this. Stars are going this way you because of this equation. It's possible, but ultimately, you know, there are a lot of questions why this is existing, why we are here. What's the purpose of these galaxies and why they are all revolving around something? Why is it, so many questions are there? So I thought maybe this could be even more complicated. I should not be getting into such questions. And interestingly, we had a course on coursework which is purely based on seminars usually have some talks. Based on the performance in the talk, you will be given some grades and I was given a topic called Brownian motion. That yeah, I didn't know anything. So I read a lot of products, of different books, I talk to people, I somehow managed the information and I presented my seminar. And fortunately, I got full marks for the seminar. Yeah, and I understood that you know, I have some interest in that direction. And there was a teacher who, who's setting the standards, metaphysics, that he also after, I think, after a couple of semesters or maybe after having some, some of the examining, one of one or two examinations done, so I was pretty good in statistical physics and also in solid state. So, I mean, compared to astrophysics, so then, again, another teacher came in, he said, Well, probably if you do really want a PhD, maybe this could be a new option, and maybe you could, you could set something else in condensed matter systems, or maybe stat physics.
Whatever you think you're most comfortable with.
Well, then, I was very confused, like what to do. So then, in the last words, the end of my master's, we had to do a thesis, and people are allowed to take six months to complete the thesis and present it before the final examination. So I went to do the thesis work in Kolkata, before my PhD actually, the same place, with the same people to whom I did my PhD. So when I went to do this thesis, it was a completely different world. It was like it's an advanced university, advanced institute. So like they are doing cutting edge research, and they are like, great theorist and experimenters out there. It's unlike, unlike this university teachers because teaching never comes like with a fully loaded research project. So they have they have to, like concentrate more on teaching. Doing some research, but here at this institute, when I read for the thesis, master's thesis, they were all like fully research oriented and like all talking about so Hi Fi physics which was not understanding 30% of it. And then I think I've done my thesis and in a smart way, I came back and got full marks; and then I understood that I am good, specifically good at doing theoretical physics, basically, like applying mathematical equations to physics problems and solving it or making mathematical modeling and so yeah, so then I had a decision at the end of my Masters; either complete 100% is a decision that I'm going to do theoretical physics, that too and condensed matter. Yeah, this is, I could say the journey up to masters. Yeah. Yeah, then I actually
one of the southern most
southernmost states of India, it's called Kerala. Maybe it's quite known among the tourists. It's called God's Own Country. That's where the tourists named it; it's a very good very, good place for back waters, the houseboats, greenery. It's a beautiful place. But the region where I did PhD was not East extended actualy around 3000 kilometers from
my home. So
Yeah, I moved at the age of 22 from home; that time, I was like in a mother's kid She was always spoon feeding and I was enjoying. At the age of 22 I left, I left home and there was a homesickness time. During the initial phases of PhD but I think I the moment I landed at Institute, the Indian Institute of Science Education and Research. I mean, I was having a very good training, I would say; the most important persons in my life was my two PhD supervisors just because of them I'm like
this where I am.
Like extremely good. One of the supervisors, was a senior professor, he was the director of the Institute and he's like very well known
around the world.
He had fantastic ideas. Physics was fascinating. The other person was like more human like, he was taking care of me
Speaker 1 28:36
like a baby. He knew that I had left home,
Jishad Kumar 28:40
had a lot of issues. So I mean, it was like a work life balance situition for me during my PhD. So I enjoyed my stay at that place. Of course, I had a lot of ups and downs during this three and a half years I spent there.
And maybe it's the end. Luckily,
or fortunately, for me, whatever problems we started with, it just worked for me, so I was good. I got good publications during the PhD and things were happening in a very positive way for me. And I could come out of the institute in three and a half years. So it was good for me. So then the real the question comes what next? Once you have a PhD, the question is like what to do next.
Shekerah Primus 29:37
That's a big one. Yeah.
Jishad Kumar 1:41
I, yeah, like the others. I actually wanted to end up in academia, research, and teaching; I love teaching. I love research, I want to continue the same. So the natural choice is to go for postdocs because without postdoc experience you probably won't get a job. That's the kind of condition; tough time at the beginning, at the beginning to get a postdoc position. So I decided to stay back in India for at least a year, spend some time in the same city, in Kolkata and also such route that I will have some time on my hand and look around for postdocs abroad. So to come back to India and to get the professor position was also difficult because you needed these three years of postdoc experience abroad with some decent publications. So anyway, wanted to go out. I applied for fellowships, there's that and that time it was like, you know, firing applications to different universities and professors. Then I ended up in the Charles University in Prague. It was a very cool, cool place. I think you'll notice Prague is one of the most beautiful city in the world. Yeah, it's really beautiful, cute, small and cute. I spent two years there, it was very good. In terms of productivity, I was doing good research. Basically, I worked on from PhD and since PhD was working or being not I was I have been working on a subject called open quantum systems; one of the hot hot topics. Right now you've heard about quantum computing, quantum information, like quantum thermodynamics, all all those these hot topics are actually relying on the principles of open quantum systems. I was doing theoretical study of open quantum systems during my PhD, and I continue doing the same thing during my initial postdocs. I tried to collaborate with other people from different subjects and different departments. Then I had a chance to to go to the United States at the University of Pennsylvania. It was a dream actually, it was a dream come true. In fact, I actually got a position in Tel Aviv, Israel, but my professor was actually, he was a professor at Tel Aviv, but he moved; originally when he offered me the position he was at Tel Aviv. So within three months of starting, once I think he retired from the University of Tel Aviv, and then he moved to Philadelphia. He, so he actually took me along with him. It was good. It was good. So
Shekerah Primus 4:32
So, thank you so much for taking us through your career journey. It's been very amazing. You know, just listening to your voice and how excited you are talking about it. I can tell it's been an amazing experience for you. And it's obvious that you love, you love physics; and you've had several influential mentorships during your journey and you spoke about some of the professors who took personal interest. So looking back on all of that, on your journey, what advice would you give your younger self?
Jishad Kumar 5:04
Well, I would probably given advice on being more organized. Which I was not maybe, yeah, of course, I was getting good training and good support, both morally and academically, but for some reason, I was not that like, organized, which I which I mean, of course, if you asked me I would also give the same advice to my young stage upcoming talents that we will be more organized because I have had this you know, this character, you know, bending things like I keep things like okay, I'll do next tomorrow day after tomorrow. I will end up doing it. Probably when I have a deadline. I would definitely do things before the deadline. But by the time I ended up doing this project, I would have let it all out. I'm exhausted. Yeah. This is something which I don't want to carry through. Yeah, so I think it's a matter of like time, or it's all about your experience and age, that at that age, maybe I'm 23, or 24. So I don't think people can be more organized. So he does, like teenage plus or younger ages and so you're more excited. Yeah. But when you get older, so probably you will have more understanding of how things has to be.
Shekerah Primus 6:31
Yeah, excellent advice. We can all stand to be a little bit more organized, right? Only that you know that time management and I think I understand what you're saying where you know, you have something to do and you sort of thinking about it and planning it in your head.
You don't end up doing it until like the last minute and then you're tired from like all the sleepless nights and all that. So yeah, I definitely understand about being more organized.
I can see that. So last question in this segment. So when you visualize your successful self what does that picture look like for you?
Jishad Kumar 7:14
I am still not satisfied. I don't need to completely visualize that success because I think I'm not done yet. I still want to do more. I think like not even half the way I think I'm still like 25 to 20 to 25% that level. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's like physics is, is a subject which is too huge, too huge for a person to cover. It's not as basic I'm sure it's biology, chemistry, mathematics, whatever comes. It's a huge, huge whiteboard. You cannot, you cannot learn everything of every subject. But you can at least learn 50% of what actually you do, but I still believe that I have not personally I still would want to do more, learn more and love physics more. I think this is what my, my perspective, I think.
Shekerah Primus 8:16
Excellent. Thank you so much, Fatu any additional questions for this segment?
Fatu Badiane Markey 8:20
No none that I can think of, I really appreciate you taking a three year journey to shine. I'll definitely agree with what Shekerah said and providing all those I think really incredible special details you know, for things that we don't remember but you remember so clearly, because I think for you they also had such an impact right? And how you developed, you know, into, from being someone you know, was good in mathematics to now, how do I apply this in terms of physics, then also growing as a physicist in your work that you're doing, I think, yeah, all of that really stays with you as you're progressing. So I thought that was yeah, just really wonderful to hear your story.
Jishad Kumar 9:01
Thank you. Yeah.
Fatu Badiane Markey 9:04
And now we're going to go on to the last segment of our show, which is, again, one of our favorites. I feel like we'd like to start off you know, like, strong we started with food, and then we end with what brings you joy outside of work. So this segment is called life lights.
Shekerah Primus 9:24
You mad me wait for it Fatu!
Fatu Badiane Markey 9:26
I know! Here we want you to think about you know, what are your hobbies, your passion projects, what do you like to their friends, with their family? How do you relax? What brings you light and enjoyment to your life?
Jishad Kumar 9:42
Okay, good. Very good question. And I actually like watching, like watching comedies, number one. I played chess, something which I always like. Like I'm a singer. I'm a trained Indian classical singer. So I used to sing, unfortunately, unfortunately, at the moment that my home nobody other than my wife is there to listen. Right. So this is something which I always do as as hobbies. Yeah, I also like to travel, I like to read. I mean, watching nature. Sometimes I sleep just . . .
Fatu Badiane Markey 10:31
Sometimes I sleep!
Jishad Kumar 10:34
I mean, sometimes I sleep for the entire day.
Fatu Badiane Markey 10:38
Okay. So you, you really get like a real hard rest so that you can recharge right? I like that. Yeah, I like that. Great. Great. Excellent. Excellent. Well, thank you again, so much, Jishad. And, and like I said, you know, we are going to keep an eye on you on LinkedIn. And we look forward to one day following up with you in the future to hear about what the next phase is going to be for you. Your own lab, having your own students. And you know, I think we're always really excited to see where people end up and where they go. Yeah.
Jishad Kumar 11:12
You, you probably both will be my lucky mascots. So I will definitely let you know like when you said that you're going to keep an eye on my LinkedIn. So you will be knowing that.
Outtro 11:26
Right. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. And on that note, we'd also like to thank our listeners for supporting the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like and share. And reach out to us by email at love science podcast@gmail.com. Until next time, bye everyone.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai