3D InCites Podcast
3D InCites Podcast
The Unseen Force Behind Semiconductor Device Reliability
A semiconductor wafer travels around the globe five times on average before becoming the chip in your smartphone. Each journey represents a potential risk to device reliability that few consumers—or even industry professionals—ever consider.
Behind every high-performing semiconductor device lies a carefully orchestrated logistics operation ensuring these sensitive components arrive intact and functioning. As Francoise von Trapp discovers in this eye-opening conversation with John Desmond and Valentina Aplenalp of Kuehne+Nagel, the journey matters just as much as the manufacturing.
Drawing from his background in semiconductor design and manufacturing, John explains how vibration, temperature fluctuations, humidity, and even light exposure can compromise device integrity during transit. Wafers transported in specialized containers called FOUPs, delicate packaging materials, and critical replacement parts for manufacturing equipment all require extraordinary care throughout their global journeys.
Valentina reveals the sophisticated systems developed to protect these valuable shipments: real-time environmental monitoring sensors connected to 24/7 control towers, specialized air-ride vehicles, and climate-controlled packaging solutions. When emergencies arise—like a critical equipment failure threatening production—their time-critical logistics teams deliver replacement parts within hours, not days.
Most fascinating is the human element. The Semicon Chain certification program ensures every person who might handle semiconductor shipments receives specialized training, creating an end-to-end system where nothing is left to chance. As John puts it, they aim to be "the best partner that you never know you had"—the hidden force ensuring semiconductor reliability.
Whether you're a semiconductor professional, supply chain specialist, or simply curious about the invisible infrastructure supporting our digital world, this episode offers rare insight into how logistics enables technological innovation.
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This episode of the 3D Insights podcast is sponsored by Kuhn Noggle. You can trust Semicon Logistics by Kune Noggle to navigate even the most demanding supply chain challenges. Whether you move raw materials, finished chips, or sensitive capital equipment, every shipment is backed by the Semicon Chain Certified Network. Discover more at www.coonandogle.com. That's K-U-E-H-N-E-N-A-G-E-L dot com.
SPEAKER_02:Hi there. I'm Francoise von Trapp, and this is the 3D Insights Podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Hi everyone. We've been talking a lot lately about the importance of semiconductor device reliability, especially as they become more complex and costly. And up until now, um, the conversation has mostly revolved around inspection and metrology of the devices themselves and processes used to build them. But have you ever considered what happens to the wafers, the dyes, the final product once they're being shipped for final manufacture or in whatever product they're going to be? So today we're talking about that unseen force behind semiconductor device reliability, and that is a secure and reliable supply chain. Joining me for today's conversation is John Desmond and Valentina Aplenalp of CUNANOGL. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. So before we dive into the discussion, can you just each tell our listeners about your background and your specific roles at CUNANOGLE?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you very much. I suppose I go back to originally having left university with a degree in electronic and electrical engineering. I spent 10 years in the semiconductor arena, moves on from there to an OAM company where doing repairs, BGA and a ball level, grid rate on mobile phones, and then finally the last 10 years in logistics. So it's kind of come full circle from where I graduated all the ways around to logistics of the parts that I was designing and working in back in the semiconducts.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I can see where that would be helpful at Cuna Nagle to have somebody who is a specialist in and knows end-to-end what happens to build a semiconductor device to kind of identify the places where you need to be extra careful. So I'm glad we're going to have a really good conversation about that. How about you, Valentina?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I have been with Kunenagel for 10 years. And in my last 10 years, I have always been working in uh product and product development. So I have worked uh on several types of uh uh industries, and uh lately I have been uh um taking care of the semical logistics product for the air logistics team in Kunanagle. So nice talking about this topic today with you.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, and so just to clarify, when you're talking about products, you're talking about Kunanagle's products to provide those logistics solutions.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, we call them products. Uh, you could say they are services, it's service designed for specific type of industries. So we work with customers, with uh people like John that come from the industry, and we develop uh services that are uh customized to a certain type of industry, like for semiconductor business. Yeah, we call them product in our company, but it's active services, yes.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so one of the things that I've noticed is people only notice logistics when they fail. And then semiconductors, handling and transport directly impact the back-end yield and reliability of those devices and products. So now, John, from your fab and back-end experience, can you walk us through that journey that a semiconductor device takes before reaching final test and maybe identify some of the critical points where logistics could impact yield and reliability?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. It's actually a very good question. I suppose one of the things we have to look at is we take a helicopter view that the actual back-end process starts from when you have the disc that most people would know, which has all the chips actually on the wafer. And the first part of that would obviously be cutting and dicing. And then there are many steps after that along the way, where it goes from cutting and dicing, you die attached with wire bonding, and there's a few extra steps along the way before it becomes the chip that everybody sees. But within those, say, maybe 10 processes along the way, there's a multitude of you know, capital equipment, there's a multitude of um of spare parts being used, there's a multitude of wire bonding, substrates there that are indigenous to that particular part of the process that we're using. And each one of those touch points, a bit like baking a cake when you move from you know part A to part B to going into the oven, wherever you have a change in the process, that's where a potential failure can occur.
SPEAKER_03:And these process steps can actually take place in different locations that require you to move those parts.
SPEAKER_00:That would be correct. And that's a good observation that a lot of people wouldn't realize. So, on average, a wafer chip would probably move around the globe five times as it goes from various aspects because there's no one place that's actually big enough to do the whole end-to-end process of a chip. So, as such, also you have different capital equipment required for each of these steps. So you have some specialized uh companies that are only doing this OSAT packaging, so therefore they have their own, you know, basically cities where these chips come in and then they reach their final assembly and testing before they move on to the consumer. So once it does that, once the chip moves into these locations, it moves back out again. So there's constant movement of these chips, it doesn't just happen in one location.
SPEAKER_03:What about TSMC?
SPEAKER_00:So TSMC obviously won a huge company, but TSMC would obviously use also OSAS as well. TSMC would be considered a foundry.
SPEAKER_03:They are doing some advanced packaging, the very advanced packaging.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and that's the thing. It's like having the difference between, you know, um a car with four wheels and your you know uh high-end automotive. You know, not everybody needs the Formula One race car. Um, and it's the same with uh consumer industry. You know, you do have say mobile phones, but the chips using mobile phones wouldn't be the same that's needed in, say, a quantum device or in say um um a PC or a laptop. They all have, you know, what we say in Ireland is horses for courses. So it depends on what the course is, depending on how you want your horse. Do you want a jumper? Do you want a runner? Do you want a sprinter? It's the same for chips.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so can you maybe illustrate this with a story of when a logistics issue could have derailed the back-end performance of a device?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's uh it's the classic example of process failure. Like in engineering, you look at the touch points, and there are various elements along the way that can be catastrophic failures, and that's when the process itself comes to a stop, regardless of what the process is. So if we just take, say, um I just pick one die attach, is when you actually attach the die to the back of a substrate. So there is capex there used, you know, to literally pick the pieces that are sawn off the original uh wafer. Now that's all done with you know millimeter and nanometer precision. So this has to be done by obviously a robotic device. Now, there's always going to be moving parts with any kind of robotic device. These things do eventually fail. There is uh you know MTBS meantime between failures and so on. So you have to allow for this, you have to change out these certain parts. Again, using an everyday example, it's like your car. Your car works, but eventually the tire will go flat or the oil will run out. Or in some cases, today the battery needs to be charged, and at that point is a process failure. And in this kind of an industry with semicon, it's usually capex, and it's where that piece of capex fails, that would be a catastrophic failure that would stop the whole process.
SPEAKER_03:And logistics can impact that, whether or not that part is replaced on time, or whether the part gets there is all intact itself.
SPEAKER_00:That's correct. So obviously, say the engineer on site will be looking to get that piece of equipment back up and running as as quickly as possible because you know seconds is a lot of money in the semiconduc industry. So when they want that part to be there on time, so they will know there could be a catastrophic failure where they don't know it's going to happen. They want it now, they want the part ship now. And it could be that they have a maintenance that just needs to run. And if the part isn't there waiting, then that's when that piece of equipment doesn't work and the whole process comes to a basically a stop.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Valentina, how does Cunanagle translate these back-end requirements into logistics practice, especially when we're talking about securing way-for-guide transfers and um ISO class handling?
SPEAKER_01:So, what we do at Kunanagel, we do exactly what we are doing today. We talk to customers, we try to understand what are their needs, we try to understand what they have to move and what are the requirements of what we are moving. And based on that, we then define the semiconduction. So that's how we come up for a supply chain solution in logistics to take care basically of the particular needs of, in this case, the wafer or the diet. And we try to basically uh put all of these requirements together and come up with handling protocols that actually meet the ISO requirements. So we need to ensure in logistics that whatever we do, every part that we move from origin to destination, from the first pickup until the moment uh the shipment reaches the last customer, that we follow these protocols. It's a science basically, also in the logistics side. So we come up with these requirements, we tell our people, our team, we need to ensure product integrity for the entire process. So we need to understand are there temperature control that are this do we need to take care of this from a temperature control? Do we need to make sure that is safe, that is secure? What are the requirements of this type of goods we are moving? And based on that, we design the solution that we are going to provide to move this type of goods. It's really a study. We understand what are the needs of the customer, what are the needs of the goods, and based on that, we put together the handling protocols that have to be followed by everyone that is going to deal with that type of good.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so let's take the situation that John was talking about where there might be a robotics part of a tool that needs to be replaced, and it needs to replace, be replaced rather quickly to get the process up and running again. So, how would Cunagle handle that?
SPEAKER_01:So we have different types of services that uh we can offer to our customers. So, in the case that John was describing, we would use a time critical service. So a same-day delivery, a same-day pickup, we will talk to the airlines. Of course, this would move by air freight. That's the fastest solution, unless the piece we have to move, it's very close to the location uh where we have to deliver. If it is at the same country, maybe we can just move it with the next drive out. We will also look at that solution. But in general, when you are in front of an urgency, you need to use the fastest possible solution you have in place. So you will go into a type of a time critical solution. The idea is okay, what is the best routing? When is the next flight? So we talk to the customer, when is the piece rating? The piece that I have to move, where is and when is ready? And then I will need to do the fastest possible pickup. Within one hour, we will have the piece. You deliver it at the airline on the tarmac. So you will deliver it um directly to the airline to reduce the amount of people that are going to touch the piece, and then on the next flight, and then there will be someone waiting for the piece at the destination airport to pick it up. If it has to be customs cleared, there will be uh probably a pre-clearance process whenever it's possible to speed up also the customs clearance, and then we will go on and deliver it as fast as possible. In this type of situation, we are looking at uh hours, we are not even looking at the days, we are really thinking about okay, I need to deliver this in the shortest time possible. That might take so no transfer in the middle as fast as possible, as direct as you can.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so in this case, would the customer be the manufacturer or the equipment supplier?
SPEAKER_01:It will be whoever has the spare parts. So in this case, the tool has to be replaced. So it will be uh whoever is providing uh the spare parts to replace the the tool.
SPEAKER_03:You're not necessarily just long distance, you can be short distance as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when when you talk about uh critical solution, if the piece is a couple of hours away, it might be faster to drive it than actually to fly it. Because you know, when you have to fly something, you need to see okay, when is the next flight? You need to arrive at the airport, you need to go through all the handling at the airport. So sometimes it's just faster to put it in the car and deliver it, or you can look at the onboard courier type of solution if the piece is small enough that you can actually fly with the piece, so that is the fastest um at customs. So you really need to look at what is the best solution and the fastest solution in the moment you have to deal with that specific type of situation.
SPEAKER_03:All right, let's talk a little bit about something that's really critical for the advanced packaging side of things, which is the materials. Um, John, why are materials for advanced packaging so sensitive compared to front end? And what happens if those the conditions to transport and move those materials aren't tightly controlled?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I suppose what you're asking here is that people would think of the back end more of the you know the heavy or the heavy side of lifting of the of this process. However, having said that, because we're dealing with finite and and very small um devices, that anything that's that can be used or that can be transposed into the material, so vibration, heat, temperature, humidity, but also with regard to substrates, uh these you have to also avoid UV light because these have to be put in at a certain you know wavelength to ensure that their heterogene is what's called heterogeneously, that the packaging is actually you know intact and is completely isolating the device itself from any external heat, transfers, cold transfer, vibration, etc. etc. But also um signals coming off the PCB and whatever it's used in. So because of that, we're down to very, very finite levels, and any variation in anything that we as human beings experience, such as light, heat, temperature, that's transposed directly into also the devices that we're using for our phones, our laptops, our cars, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, I hear I live here in Arizona and there's a lot of semiconductor manufacturing happening here. And I can tell you that depending on the time of year, we have massive extremes, especially of heat. I think about when I just order something online, if it happens to be any kind of makeup, you know, we're getting outside of the semiconductor realm of things, but these are also things that are sensitive to temperature and heat. Wine. My husband does a wine club, and in the summer we don't order wine because we never know how it's going to arrive. So I think the same thing is true of these semiconductor devices and the materials used to build them, just making sure that they are stable during that transport.
SPEAKER_01:So when we talk about this type of materials, we know that they are very sensitive to environmental factors. So we need to prevent and we need to make sure that we know, as you said, the condition at the origin and destination and during transit. So, as you said, if I am, for example, in Dubai, it's going to be different than if I am in Amsterdam, especially in certain time of the year. And we are able to provide advanced packaging. So, based on that, we will decide what to deploy an active or passive temperature control solution. So you have actually type of packaging that can control the temperature and that can make sure that during the entire shipment, the package stays at the temperature that is required. So it's not only about deploying the right packaging, but it's also about using the right monitoring solution. And we can offer sensors that monitor humidity, temperature. Um so then monitor even light, because you know that this type of material can be very sensitive to light as well. So we really are going to uh make sure that uh what we are shipping is going to be protected from all of these uh possible excursion during the um the shipment. On top of that, we have a sensor that monitor it, and then we have a 24-7 setup control tower that is going to receive an alert if something is deviating from what we are expecting. So let's say that during the transit I have a problem in the truck and uh the temperature uh uh is not maintained. My team will receive an alert and we can uh get in touch with the tracker and tell them, okay, you need to intervene because there is a deviation. And you know, maybe a couple of minutes is okay if you have to turn on again the machine that is controlling the temperature, but a couple of hours could be um a disaster. You might end up having to throw away the entire shipment. So we put all this solution in place to make sure that during the entire shipment we know exactly what is happening, and then we can intervene if something is not going as planned.
SPEAKER_03:So that's advanced packaging for advanced packages, that's really meta. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. So kind of continuing along that line when you're talking about the handling and transport, um, John, from your perspective, what does discipline handling look like to protect these materials from risk?
SPEAKER_00:That's kind of where we would have, I would say, our most focus because unfortunately we're not living in the Star Trek world where you can simply just say, beam me up, and the part arrives at the location. It does have to, you know, be lifted by lifting equipment such as fork trucks or cranes. It does need to go on to the trucks and you know, and vans, it does have to do the last mile delivery. So, what we try to do there is obviously we're working with the local handlers, uh, but in loading and offloading to try to ensure that they are giving it the utmost care. That could be something as simple as you know how they operate the first truck, you know, at what speed are they actually lifting at? You know, are they jerking it about too much? Is it is it moving around? Are the tilt mechanisms in correct place? But also when we're moving parts from, say, the actual airline itself and then putting it onto the truck, one thing that is something which people would overlook a lot is that they will actually lift the part and then drop it in the ground, and then the truck would arrive and they'd lift it again and then load it onto the truck. So there's three impacts to the ground along the way. But if you lift it and the truck reverses under what you've lifted, you only have one touch point now. So anything we can do to remove that element and that variation is what we work with. Um, we spend a lot of time with the handlers and obviously the training there. So Kunanagel has a quite comprehensive semicon training package that we use with all the handlers themselves, and we've also implemented our own ISO audit as well to ensure that everybody is what we call semicon certified when they're handling this equipment. But I think Valentina would know more about that from the air perspective.
SPEAKER_03:One of the things we wanted to focus here is not just on the manufacturing equipment, but how are the devices packaged themselves? I mean, are they created in a certain way? That's something I've never really thought about. When a company like an OSAT is sending the packaged devices onto the final manufacturer, let's say to build a phone, how are those parts packaged up?
SPEAKER_00:There would be one of three elements. One is you would have a hand carry, um, which kind of would go back to Valentina's point earlier. That could be a very important and all literary's next flight out. We have to get it there as quick as possible. So we would use our quick um methodology there. So that literally a hand carry, these could be high IP devices that are actually on the wafers, so we're still shipping the wafers in the food. It could also be that you have a number of different foods together on a pallet, but then regardless of what you're doing, you still have to lift that pallet because the fruits themselves are quite heavy because they're sealed against all kinds of light heat temperature. And then we have that sealed, and that's sealed again, and it's sealed again in the crate. So even though the device might only weigh a couple of grams when you go to ship them to protect it from the light heat, air humidity going from say Ireland in the summertime, which is 18 degrees, to Arizona in the summertime, which is 44 degrees. I'm using seat here, obviously, you need to make sure that everything is wrapped and thermally isolated as well. So you're always going to be dealing in at least kilos in excess of 30 to 40 kilos, you will need some kind of handling equipment to move that.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I just wanted to clarify that because I'd really never thought about that. Okay, so we know wafers are transported in foops, so we're bundling foops together and palletizing them and keeping that, you know, reducing the vibration and all that. What about when it comes to an actual package device? They're not transported in foops once they're off the wafer, right? We're talking about, let's say, a shipment of microcontrollers or you know, uh of CPUs.
SPEAKER_00:How are they moved? Yeah, it's it's back again to the same idea of critical mass. You're not going to move one microcontroller because then it's going to be six grams, and you that's going to be the most expensive microcontroller shipment in the world. So, again, for from the you know, whether it's a um a high-end Intel chip or a high-end AMD chip or you know, one of these many other um, you know, Snapdragon chips or whatever, you will try to ship as many as possible to keep costs. Obviously, cost is a big factor here when we're using air, but no matter what methodology you use, you will try to ensure that you're shipping the maximum amount. So you very rarely have packages you know that are other under you know half a kilo. So you will be moving a lot of this equipment, and again, it's placed on a pallet, which is a ULD. So even though it can be the size of your thumb, it still has to go on a plane, but it still has to have the packaging. So kind of if you think of it like a cake, you bake your cake, it's it looks fabulous, it's it's in the bakery, but it has to get to your house. So you wrap it, you put ribbons on it, you put it in a bag, you put it in another bag, and then just to be sure, you you know, you might put it on a piece of cardboard. So now you know your lovely cake goes from half a kilo to two kilos just in the packaging alone to protect it.
SPEAKER_03:And you have to make sure not to mess up the frosting or the decorations.
SPEAKER_00:There you go, because that's where the handling comes in, you see. You know, if you're walking and you're walking, that's vibration, and you go from the shop to the Arizona Heat, by the time you get to your car, it's melted. It's melted. Right.
SPEAKER_03:So, Valentina, this is where your work comes in. Um, how do you plan routes to minimize the risk? Well, we've talked already a little bit about transport modes and distance, air, land, and sea, based on how far it has to go, how quickly it has to be there. But what if we're talking about minimizing the um actual vibration, temperature extremes, all of that? How do you take that into account when you're deciding how to get something from point A to point B?
SPEAKER_01:So it's uh it's very clear. I mean, the more direct you go, the more you will minimize the touch point. If there is a possibility to have a direct flight, for example, that would be the safest choice, let's say, to keep the shipment as the most safe to make sure that basically you are not going to expose the shipment too many variables. Okay. So we have to plan the route. When it's an emergency, it's a different protocol. You know, you receive a request, everybody is stressed, especially on the customer side, they call you, they are in an emergency, and you have to intervene. So at that point, the route is planned based on the moment. Okay, what is my best solution now? When you have a more stable situation, we have um a route planning that takes a bit more time than a few seconds, let's say, let's say. So we have tools that are going to support this. So we have flight matrix tools, we have tools that can uh do predictive analytics, that can study um historical data, and then based on that, it will tell you okay, for your shipment, for this type of shipment, the best routing is this one. And based on that, we then discuss uh what is needed. Basically, what are the risks we need to control, what are the extreme climates that we are going to encounter, are there congested hubs we should avoid? This also is based on the time of the year. You might imagine that shipping at Christmas is very different than shipping in March. You know, it's it's very different. So, based on that and on all the tools that we have um on our side, we will decide the best routing for the time of the year the shipment is happening. And then we will discuss, of course, with the customer what is the transit time that is required. So you might imagine that the customer is going to come to us and say, I need it in 24 hours, I need it in 48 hours. Based on that, the costs might also change. So you need to discuss with the customer, okay, what is the urgency on the shipment? What is the priority for you? Is that it arrives in one day, is that it arrives in two days, or do you want to save some money as well? So sometimes it's not only about fast and uh the most direct routing, it's also about okay, what is the customer's need? Because sometimes they might need it tomorrow, but sometimes they might need it in one week. And if the material is not too sensitive to extreme temperature, you might find a better solution. So we really, really uh look at the shipments together with the customer, and we decide the best transportation mode for them. So it's going to be air freight, it's going to be sea freight, it's going to be road freight, or it's going to be an emergency, like we discussed before. So, based on that, we try to mitigate all the risk and we will establish what is the best route and the best mode for the customer situation.
SPEAKER_03:Apart from emergency situations, how long does this planning take with a customer? Is this something where they can just call you and you put all of this together, or is this require like meetings?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, we have tools. We have tools that are available. So theoretically, you could send me an email after this meeting, and I would be able in a couple of uh minutes to tell you what is the best routing for your shipment. It's a tool that gets the data from all the sources we have. So we know what is the next possible flight, we know everything. So what we need to know from you is when do you need it, when is it ready? And what is the requirement of your shipment? Based on that, we can provide the best routing. So it's not four days, it's really something you can do in a couple of minutes.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so they don't need to really be planning way ahead when they're considering a big shipment.
SPEAKER_01:What is important then is the capacity. So again, when they need it, it's very important because of course you have uh certain flights, the dimension of the shipment will play a role. Okay. So you are not going to be the only one shipping today. There, so it's a bit like when you are buying your uh airplane ticket. So you might find a lot of flights available, a lot of uh seats available, but you might be at Christmas if you don't plan it uh six months before, you might not fly. So it's a bit the same. It all depends on the dimension of your shipment. If you have to move uh what John was saying a small package of two kilos, it's much easier to plan than uh uh a 20-ton shipment. So it really depends on the shipment size as well.
SPEAKER_03:All right, so John, now with your semiconductor engineering hat on. Okay, so let's say they noticed that a device that was tested before it shipped that was intact now is gonna fail. So how do they determine whether it was something before it was shipped or that a device failed because of the shipping or logistics process?
SPEAKER_00:This ties back into kind of what Valentina was saying about being able to monitor the ship into along the way. So if we know, you know, which we will know that they're not gonna ship faulty products because then you have what's called a DOA dead on arrival. So we know the product was working before it was shipped. So that's kind of a no-brainer, and it gets there that it's not. But what we can do is we can look back to the data logs of whatever methodology we've used to ship, but it's air, C or road, and then we can see whether any impacts, was there any excessive g force, um, you know, was there excessive vibration, was it exposed to light? By looking at that, we can then see along the way of its journey from point A to point B, between those two points, we know it was working, then it wasn't working. We can then kind of retrospectively look back and see was there anything that would have pushed this particular device out of its comfort zone. It could have been uh heartbreaking, it could have been vibration. Vibration is a big one. If you don't use air right trucks, for instance, you know, you get a lot of vibration. So imagine sitting in a car with no dampening or no shocks or no shock absorbers, it's gonna be quite a painful ride at the end of the day. So that's where we would look back to the data logs to understand was there something that we couldn't control, could be caused by, for instance, um, weather. There's quite a lot of you know storms going on around Europe at the moment. So it could have been something there could have happened. It could be hard breaking, could be going into a corner too fast, and its hit mechanisms go off. Or at the end of the day, it could be that there was this a failure, maybe in the ULD device that controls the temperature and it left there in the 16. If I came into Arizona at 46, and the minute the back of the plane comes down, suddenly there's 30 degree air coming in, and that will give a huge thermal coefficient of expansion, and that could damage the device as well.
SPEAKER_03:So you can track or test for these different logistic lapses along the way, yes. Right. Okay, so you wouldn't be testing the device along the way, the device gets tested before it's put into its final equipment. Correct. Um and then they're like, oh well, this one's broken and it wasn't shipped broken, so now we need to find out where along the way.
SPEAKER_00:How it got broken. Let's go back to the famous cake. You've picked it up from your shop, you saw it, it's grace. You're on your way home and you open the package, and the cake is in bits. And then, you know, your children or your partner kind of goes, Well, did you take that last call or a bit too fast because you were too excited with the birthday cake? You have to look at from point A to point B where were your failure paths? And in our case, it could be anything from the handling to the air to the um, you know, the plane to the device itself being uh vibrated while it was on um the incorrect methodology of shipping, and not an air right truck as an example. It could have been exposed to light. Um we you know, we don't know. Maybe uh customs did an inspection and customs decided they want to get into the box, so they open the box.
SPEAKER_03:Hate it when that happens. You get that little note inside your suitcase, you know, customs has inspected, and you're like, no, no, you shouldn't have opened it. Once something shows up and it's failed, how important is it to understand how it failed or why it failed?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the reason for that is I mean, obviously we we would have our own, say, quality safety health environment was called Cyw She, but we would do, you know, one of the many different quality uh failure problems, such as an 80, we would do that. Now the reason for finding out where it failed is not for finger pointing to say, oh, it was the handler, oh, it was the truck driver, oh, it was, I won't say the pilot of the plane, because if he's a problem, we have a different problem. But it's to understand exactly how we can improve the process with our partner at that particular location. And it's about evolving the whole time the process to make sure that it's more smooth, to make sure that it's you know better, that the people are you know really understanding what happened on that day. It could be, let's just say there's a new fortress driver, and things are chaotic, and he had to unload, you know, whatever he had to handle, what particular part he didn't realize it was a semicon part, and he just got through the screening we had, and then we would work with the local partners to ensure that. So it's it's less about finger pointing and more about resolution and improving the whole time, um, you know, and just adapting and adopting new methodologies because semicon moves very fast, so we're constantly having to update uh working methodologies.
SPEAKER_03:Um, Valentina, are there tools that you're piloting to give customers visibility um or predictive insights?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, we are always piloting new tools. So uh we are always looking uh into the newest smart sensor, but we also develop our own solution. So uh we are always going to be launching new digital tools. So we talk about smart labels, a smart sensor that can track temperature, humidity, shock, real time. Um we have um tools that can predict and forecast along the routing what can happen. So a bit what what you were discussing now with John, sometimes it's not even about finding where uh the the fault stands, but it's to say, okay, we notice that here something always happens. Why? So what can we do? Maybe we need to review the packaging, maybe we need to talk to the shipper, maybe there are things on both sides that can be done. In our company, we are always looking for the newest tool. And yes, we are working on something new now. I cannot tell you too much, but soon we will always be releasing new digital tools, a new innovative tool that can support all our customers, being them on the semiconductor side, on the cloud side, whatever are the type of goods we are shipping, we will always be looking at the uh newest digital tools that can support the shipment.
SPEAKER_03:When you're working with OSATs, what are they looking for when qualifying a logistics partner?
SPEAKER_00:Each OSAT will have different variables depending on what they're involved in. Are they involved in the substrates, you know, wire bonding, the die cutting? So they all have different variables. But at the end of the day, if you take a helicopter view on what they're looking at, what they really want is right first time. They just want whatever they're shipping to get there on time, in time, and with the quality that they expect their equipment to arrive on, which is brand new. So they really want what I just captioned it like right first time. No excuses. We need it there at this point, at this location, with 100% quality.
SPEAKER_03:So all of these things that we've been talking about, most of those situations we don't want to see happen at all.
SPEAKER_00:Correct.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So right first time means they're looking for someone with some experience. They understand the end-to-end situation, like we've been talking about, and that what they need is to know that their logistics partner is fully aware of what can happen in the semiconductor industry when you're moving anything from equipment to devices to wafers to materials, and that they can count on their logistics partner to minimize all of those risks and make sure that they get their products on time. So, Valentina, CUNA Novel has a product. Can you talk a little bit about that semicon chain product?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. So, based on uh what uh John just described, we have decided to uh create our own quality label. So semico chain is a quality label, it's something that didn't exist before in the market. What does it mean for the customer? We have uh um a framework for our uh team that they have to follow. So we identify where there is a need, so we design the semiconductor, we check uh um origin and destination, so who is going to work with the semiconductor shipment? And based on that, we train our team so nobody um who has not been trained can touch the shipment or work with the shipment at all. So they are not going to make a booking, they are not going to deal with the semiconductor customer at all. But besides that, uh so we we try to understand is the shipment going into the warehouse? So, what are the storage conditions? Um, is our warehouse equipped to handle this type of goods? And then who are the trackers that are going to move this shipment? As John was saying, are they um air ride trucks? Because otherwise forget it, they cannot move the shipment. So we are going to audit basically every station in our semiconductor network that is going to deal with the shipment. And this auditing is not done, of course, by me or uh by John, it's done by our quality department that is an independent department inside of Kunen Nagel that is going to audit all our stations. There is this program that we run, so everybody in the station has to be trained. They need to know also how to deal with the sensors, how to handle the packages, everything, what to book with the airlines and what to book with the subcontractor, because sometimes booking the wrong type of service can have um very bad consequences. This process is not that we do it once and then forget it. We have to rerun this uh um auditing and this training every two years. So we are going to check everyone in our network are they still trained? Are they still the same people working? If there are new people joining, have they been trained? So we are going to rerun the entire process every two years. And if there is something that is not working as we expect, we will make also an auditing of the station and we will make sure that the process is followed exactly as we expect. So it's a quality label that we have launched. We are very proud of it, and uh it works quite well.
SPEAKER_03:It's been really great talking to you both and learning about the importance of logistics for the real overall reliability of a device. So, what would be each of you would be one key message packaging and test professionals should remember about logistics?
SPEAKER_00:Um, we're the best partner that you never know you had. Or, you know, we should be unseen and unheard. Your packages should just arrive, your you know, your parts should just arrive, your equipment should just arrive.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I imagine what we've talked about could give some people some anxiety, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it can. And this is the problem with shining a light on it. Now we're shining, you know, another possible break in the chain, but that that's why it's called a supply chain, because we link the front and the back. We everything is linked together, so we keep those links going. So, but people don't realize that we're there, so kind of a hidden force.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So that's what we want. We want to remain a hidden force, right? We don't want people to worry.
SPEAKER_01:Valentina, uh, from my side, I think uh what I would uh like to remind everyone is that logistic is not just there to move things from A to B. We are not only the support function, if we are included in the conversation with the uh the shipper, with the consignee, and even with the manufacturer, we can uh enable reliability. So the more you let us know, the more hidden we will stay, because then you won't hear of us anymore. But don't forget, we are not just a support function, we need to be part of the supply chain.
SPEAKER_03:Excellent. Okay. Well, I want to thank you both for joining me today and giving me something to think about. Um, so thank you very much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much for having us.
SPEAKER_03:Hey everyone, we are right smack dab in the middle of event season. So next time on the 3D Insights podcast, we'll begin our coverage of iMaps International Symposium, which is taking place this week in San Diego, as well as Semicon West, which takes place next week in Phoenix. We'll be recording live at the shows and bringing you episodes after the fact. So be sure to follow to get those automatic downloads right to your phone or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. There's lots more to come, so tune in next time to the 3D Insights Podcast. The 3D Insights Podcast is a production of 3D Insights LLC.