The one where he does B2B Customer Experience Better - Jim Tincher E85

🎤Find out how to do B2B in “The one where he does B2B Customer Experience Better” with Jim Tincher the author of “Do B2B Better” and Founder & CEO of Heart of the Customer in CX Passport episode 85 🎧 What’s in the episode?...

✅Do B2B Better!

🤗Hug your customers

🤯Whaaaaa?! CX leaders who don't talk with customers?!

🎉7 magic words to create impact in your CX initiatives

🏃‍♀️Getting to actionable insights

💡What REALLY matters to the customer

🥰What does Customer Experience look like for a charitable organization?

💭“But very few [CX Leaders] actually talked to a customer recently, which just blew me away. I asked people, “Well, when's the last time you talked to a customer?” “ Well, we did a survey last month.” “No, no, no, no, when's the last time you talked with a customer?” - Jim

Hosted by Rick Denton “I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport”

Episode resources:

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jimtincher

“Do B2B Better” Book & Conference: www.dob2bbetter.com

Heart of the Customer: heartofthecustomer.com

Transcript

Rick Denton: 0:05

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Today's guest has some interesting moments in his career, from shaking things up at a first job in a customer focused way to being told you're kind of disruptive, aren't you? To a massive viral post about the 10 requirements of a customer journey map today's guest Jim Tincher, founder and CEO of Heart of the Customerlives and breathes the customer. When I got the chance to meet with Jim, we ran out of time, because we were talking customer, customer customer, it's so exciting to have an opportunity to learn from someone with such a heart for a brain for an action matters. The hands for customer experience. Jim recently authored a new book do be to be better, which comes out the day this episode releases CX day, October 4 2022. We'll have a chance to talk more about why Jim thinks we need to do b2b better, and how we can do it spoiler, you know, it's going to focus heavily on the customer. Also, when you hear customer experience, you probably think traditional business, right? But what about the nonprofit space, especially across borders? What would customer experience look like there? We'll find out soon, Jim. Welcome to CX passport.

Jim Tincher: 1:43

Thanks. Great. Great to be here.

Rick Denton: 1:45

Looking forward to this. So I mentioned this in the intro that first job I got a chuckle when you were telling me about that before you suggested to your manager that you wanted to visit a customer. Right from the beginning, you were customer focused? How did that go over with your boss at the time?

Jim Tincher: 1:59

I would say confusing. He really had no idea why I would want to visit customer why that was important to me. I was I was going out to Connecticut to visit my then girlfriend now wife. And yeah, I want to say one there like this is a customer. We sold high resolution printers at that time. And so I wanted to see who was actually using it and how they're using it and just wanted to be introduced to a client while I was there. And yeah, it was confusing, and eventually just told, Well, actually, I did get a chance to meet with them. It took a little pushing, which is kind of the theme of my career. And I was able to actually to visit a customer, which is great.

Rick Denton: 2:35

It seems so weird now, to think that that would be met with resistance. Why do you think there was sort of this? Well, why on earth would you want to meet with a customer? What do you think was behind that?

Jim Tincher: 2:46

Oh, I don't think that has gotten better. Really? I think that that is still in many organizations, you want to talk to customer? I think that is confusing. Why should we spend that money? Why should we go out there and do that? I would want to believe it's gotten all better. But I'm not at all certain hats. But yeah, I think that one is just so odd. But I was in technical support. Okay, not really where you look for somebody to be a customer focused person, I guess. And so it was just unusual. And yeah, and but again, I as I've talked to other people, I think that has not changed.

Rick Denton: 3:19

That that disappoints me a little bit, because I want to think maybe it's because I live inside the CX world right now, I clearly know the value of wanting to talk to the customer and get the insight from the customer and Hekate I built my whole company around voice of the customer and getting that sense of what the customer is and who they are and what they want and using that to create actual business value. But I suppose you're right, there's still plenty of that. We figure out what the customers are, we guess what it is, we know what's better in the boardroom. And man, why bother talking to the customer. So maybe I think it's gotten better. But as you point out, maybe not as good as I want it to have been by now.

Jim Tincher: 3:56

So one of the things we did over 200 hours of interviews getting ready for this book. And I remember distinctly one where we were made we were interviewing people at Le Grand AV and Le Grand is a global organization. The AV department is headquartered here in the Twin Cities, and Laurie Engler to arrange first interviews, six of her staff. And we finished four interviews, we're on a bit of a break at turn to Diane Snitker from our team. And so you know, there's something here I'm not sure what it is but something different. And she said I know what it is. It's obvious what is it? Everybody we've talked to referenced talking to a customer sometime in the last few weeks. Nice. And I recognize that that was different. And so I started making that a question in our interviews, saying, well, when's the last time you talked to a customer? And Rick, the answer I got back was really disappointing because we're talking to customer experience people. People care about customers. One thing about our tribe is that we are passionate about customers, right? But very few I actually talked to a customer recently, which just blew me away. I had asked people say, well, when's the last time you talked to a customer? Well, we did a survey last month. No, no, no, no, when's the last time you talked with a customer? And highly variable? You know, I think about Katherine Molly foliate. At Hilde in Paris, she talks about all the time talking with customers, people whose names I won't mention, say, Well, I think last year, I talked to him. And it would just surprise me. But we get so caught up in our day to day about using surveys and surveys are important, right? They are a tool in the toolbox, but they are not the toolbox. And that physical talking to customers is so important. And I talked to Katherine early in the pandemic. And I loved what she said, which is that now thanks to the pandemic, it's just as easy for me to talk to somebody in China, as it is talks about here in Paris. Very true. They're both on the end of the zoo. And she used this as an opportunity to expand who she talked to, and to get a broader sense of customers, which is fantastic. And something we should all do.

Rick Denton: 6:12

That actually makes some sense to me when you say that, like the actual literal talking to a customer. It is surprising, though, for me to hear that, in so many of your interviews that those who were dedicated to customer experience had not. And you're right, there's many ways that we hear from our customer surveys. I too am on board with surveys, right? I'm not anti survey, although I've recognized their diminishing importance. But the customer speaks to us in many, many different ways, the calls that they have coming in the you observe their behavior in their website, or actually in the real world if you're in a real world scenario. And what does that look like, but it nothing ever replaces that actual human to human conversation that takes place in a customer conversation. Jim, you mentioned the book, and I do want to talk about the book, in this do b2b better. And I will say listeners, it is completely serendipitous timing. There was a fellow CX colleague that introduced Jim and me together, we got to talking, we wanted to have Jim on the show, and boom, realized, hey, that works to have it come out when the book comes out pure serendipity here, and I like it. But one thing you mentioned to me is you'd said we live in this environment where Forrester says that one out of every four customer roles will lose their job. Maybe it's because they weren't turning their customer. But we'll say that, but you've shared wisdom on how to do things better in the book, tell me about the book, and what do you want people to learn from it?

Jim Tincher: 7:35

Well, it comes back to when I was a customer experience leader. And I failed. I did not drive change. I was shocked when I joined this organization that literally nobody in marketing or product development had ever met a client. And we we did, we were the nation's leader in health savings accounts. And I just kept saying our customers are frustrated because I was out talking to them, and really getting a handle of what they're feeling. And they have to get back. No, they're not. We're leading the nation sales. How can they be so frustrating? We're winning so many. And I would have been far more successful if I just added seven words to my talk track, which is our customers are frustrated. And it's costing us millions of dollars. I added those words and had way more impact. But I started in with customers. And it became just an argument back and forth, whether our customers frustrated or not. But while we lead the nation in sales, we also lead the nation in the percentage of customers who are canceling their accounts. And if I leverage that to say there's billions of dollars that we are missing out, because of our complexity, I had way more impact. But I didn't know that for years later. I didn't understand why it was having impact. And this book is a mission to understand why are some programs and similarly it's typically one out of four. If you look at point the list, you look at customer Thank you look at our own research. Essentially one program out of four can show they're impacting the business can actually prove business impact. And one understand what are those one out of four doing differently? And talk to my team back in January of 2020 saying let's talk to Let's Talk to customer translators just find out why. And we still keep in touch 25 said no, we're going to go up to 50 eventually said well, what's going to be 100 100 You don't need to do it. Well, yeah, we did. So again, it was over 200 hours of interviews but time we are done. What I learned. I've not found elsewhere. And so I couldn't get out of my head I had to share what Jen rock Roxy Darren as well as dozens of others are doing. That's not part of the standard talk track about customer experience.

Rick Denton: 9:59

I I look forward to getting a chance to learn from that, because we've seen so much wisdom out there, right? There's plenty of, and I'm using air quotes here, right, you know, see x wisdom and CX thought that is out there. And so what were some of the things that if you don't mind tipping your hand a little bit, but what were some of the things that really caught you off guard that actually surprised you, you know, multi decade experience in customer experience? What surprised you in these conversations?

Jim Tincher: 10:27

Well, the first one didn't at first surprise me, there are four actions, we discovered the first one is actively tied to business value. And you said, right, I mean, that. That's not That's right. But how it was done. Okay, talking about specifically bringing the financial data into the survey analysis tool. And being able to report on that, not just that I've seen a lot of organizations do this. Well, last year, that detractors had a higher level of attrition than the promoters. They as level analysis, it's useful, not so actionable, but at least it shows them impact. But instead, these organizations are showing, for example, order velocity improved, based on not typically Net Promoter Score, quit again, but looking at, for example, one that Roxy speaks to, is that when the caller says that on a on a service issue, when the caller says that the agent was knowledgeable, that's a driver question. It's not the type of question a driver question, then that customer has different behavior going forward. They're far more likely to use self service, saving the company money. And so she's bringing this richness into show specifically, we'd say, would we have more knowledgeable reps? We save this much money. Okay. Very difficult. That was number one. Number two, those one that surprised me. We all know emotions are important. Right? So we know that's critical. And when I speak at a conference, I'll do a poll say what is most important in terms of customer loyalty? Is it effectiveness? Is it ease? Is it emotions? Or is it likely to recommend? And the last one is not a thing, but people will choose that because they liked that?

Rick Denton: 12:14

Well, we've heard the phrase so many times it's a knee jerk reaction, likely to recommend gotta do it?

Jim Tincher: 12:20

Well, I love the effortless experience. It's a great book. It's not what matters, okay? And when you look back and look at the book, and you read, the methodology becomes clear why? Now, for those who have not read the book, or as a reminder, for those who have, they say that if you want to create loyalty, then you don't need to create a while, you just need to reduce effort. But what most people don't remember is their research methodology was people in service recovery. Okay, also the context. Got it. And that is a distinct part of experience very different. And what we learned is that, and again, we talk primarily to b2b brands, is that the great programs are actually creating an emotional Northstar. They've identified one emotion that leads to those business outcomes we talked about earlier, and become their design target. When I was speaking with Jen from Dow at a conference, she shared with me that they measure effectiveness, ease and emotion which I knew. And they have discovered when they look at the financial impacts of loyalty, they look at customers who order more often, and order more different types of products and stay longer. The best predictor is enjoy ability. They enjoy working without much more than effectiveness or ease. But they look at ease. That's one of their things they measure. But they found it's less predictive than enjoy ability. And when I first met Dan, who is the Chief Commercial Officer Dan flutter, he wrote the foreword to our book. He's a gym. We're working the complaints journey, said I want to create a complaints journey. That's enjoyable. Yeah. Alec really enjoy chemical chemical complaints experience. That's enjoyable, but they did it. Because that was their Northstar. Roxy, she speaks about our confidence is their emotional Northstar. Okay, that was reminded Roxy works for UK G. They do payroll and other HR software.

Rick Denton: 14:30

Right. So cotton covenants, big deal.

Jim Tincher: 14:33

Yeah. And they show that when customers are confident that they're far more likely to buy additional products, they're far more likely to stay with UKG. And they actually have a lower cost to serve. If you're not creating an environment, where customers want to spend more with you, they want to stay longer, and they want to engage in ways that are less expensive to you and to them. Well, then we're doing their work, Rob, right. And so OPO programs can prove that's actually the outcome of their work.

Your CX Passport Captain: 15:03

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Jim Tincher: 15:31

Fidelity of their transactional measurement asks, Which of these emotions if you're working with us now, Compassion International, they are client of ours, they did this before we started working with them, they have a four part measurement that can predict whether or not you stay a sponsor, what they do is you are able to sponsor children in other countries to release them from poverty. And they have found that a four part the four questions likely to recommend satisfaction as well as delight and happiness. predict that and so they they use emotional Northstars to use to design their work. And to measure it.

Rick Denton: 16:09

Jim, I actually want to get back to Compassion International. This is this is a whole interesting section to me in the sense that, you know, so much of what we talk about when it comes to surveys or scores or business value is So logic oriented, and emotions that you're describing here are typically not very logic oriented. Yet these companies that you've had the conversations with have found a way to tie a motion to this business value this business, this tangible business value. It's this combining of the right and left brain that sounds particularly intriguing. What do you think of it? Do you feel like these are particularly interesting cases in one side of the b2b spectrum? Or is this something that could be applied on the wider b2b spectrum?

Jim Tincher: 16:55

Oh, I can certainly see it applied anywhere. And we have a client, a different software company, I haven't mentioned them. And they look for people buy more products, they don't have a retention issue, their product is such that it's really hard to replace them, the only time they lose a client really is because of a merger or acquisition. When we look at likelihood to buy more, as well as actual buying, we tested out six different emotions. We found for them again, confidence was very predictive, like the Dubai, frustration, Lord likelihood by exhaustion, exhaustion, exhaustion was yeah, the client said they're exhausted, likely to buy because almost zero, cost of service goes way up. Because they're exhausted, they're calling in all the time, they're not using cell service, they're too tired to use cells, they'll call instead. And so all these financial outcomes happen differently, depending on the emotions you create in your customer.

Rick Denton: 17:57

This is really, really interesting. And I know the book is b2b focused, but I'm sitting here thinking about how many times I've been exhausted as a customer may not have even identified it as an emotion and how that has. I'm specifically thinking of the airline industry but but how that has left me with certain brands in the air that I love and certain brands that I have completely fired from my domestic business as a result. And that emotion is a lot of why I'm making that decision, I might not have been able to quantify that I was exhausted or frustrated or felt that there was a lack of trust or whatever all those things are. But it was the emotion that was driving the business choices that I'm making with my wallet.

Jim Tincher: 18:39

Exactly. None of the four actions are specific to b2b. But I'm just tired of reading about Amazon. Warby Parker, you know, those are all great brands.

Rick Denton: 18:53

Let's move on, though. Yeah, well, yeah,

Jim Tincher: 18:55

I mean, so Jen, at Dow can't really use a Warby Parker example. Very, right. Right. They have a completely different environment. And so it's, it's targeted, b2b and b2b to see. Yeah, insurance, for example. That is a different type of experience. But you don't find very many examples out there.

Rick Denton: 19:13

Well, now we're going to have a nice thing to have on our shelves as we've after we've consumed it to understand this. Now, I did say that I want to go back and talk about compassionate or national because that was something that caught my eye. I actually didn't at the time of when I hit play on this recording. I didn't know that that was a client of yours. But I saw you recently share a post about a customer experience leader there at Compassion International. And it was one of those I thought hmm, I really hadn't thought of the NGO, the non governmental organization world focused on customer experience. So how do you how would you say customer experience impacts that NGO world?

Jim Tincher: 19:49

Well, it first of all, I better work because every dollar they spend on us is $1 not feeding a child and they are hyper focused at showing the impact. And you know, they wouldn't say business impact. But that's essentially what it is. They want to know that every dollar they invest in customer experience is resulting in three to $5. Elsewhere in the program. And as I mentioned earlier, one things they look at is retention. And they find that if it is, if they're creating happiness and delight in their sponsors, they're likely to say, to stay sponsors, and, therefore keep flooding children. And so it's really, a lot of customer experience is considered to be an art. I'm far more interested in the science of it. And for them, it is science they, yes, happiness is a right brain answer our left brain answer, but they're using the right brain to say, we see that when happiness goes up on a survey, the behaviors we want as an organization, which is saving children from poverty, are furthered. And so once we know that, how can we do anything but try to create better happiness?

Rick Denton: 21:04

Yeah So in that NGO world, do they? Because that makes sense to happiness that focus on that, but is it the same kind of, you know, hey, we're, let's develop our external closed loop feedback process, when there's something that's gone awry, our internal closed loop feedback are using various customer listening posts? Is it that same kind of discipline? I mean, as you're saying, I feel like I'm about to have at the moment, but it just had never hit me before that these are worlds that truly will focus on customer experience, similarly to what the for profit business world does?

Jim Tincher: 21:33

Oh, yeah, yeah, it's very much some of those same processes and making sure that you do close the loop on a sponsor, because you want to keep this sponsor happy. So they will save more children. It's not about the financial impact that compassion is more profitable, because clearly, there are nonprofit, right? Their mission is further, which really should be true for all of us. You know, one of the to step aside for question, just for a minute, one of the key outcomes for Dow is not yes, they look at order velocity categories ordered. But what they really get excited about is new to the world innovation. And they can show a direct line between enjoyability with doubt, and clients who will do joint innovation with a that's their big, that's their mission. And customer experience ties right to the mission. Most programs can't show that their work is furthering the mission of the organization.

Rick Denton: 22:35

Now, Jim, I want to we're talking about these massive companies Dow we're talking about even Compassion International, right. And so there's a lot of opportunity to travel around the world and see the world and enjoy that all that is there, that it can be a little exhausting. So I'd like to do a little change of pace here. Have you joined me in the first class lounge we will move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Jim Tincher: 23:01

From my past was probably went to Barcelona. That was a fabulous trip. I really enjoyed the experience. There was it was fantastic.

Rick Denton: 23:10

Great food, beautiful city. The architecture is stunning. Okay, I'm just sitting here going, oh, I want to go to Barcelona. Wait, no, I've got a podcast recording, visualized. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet.

Jim Tincher: 23:24

I grew up as a Greek mythology nerd. I would love to go to Athens and all throughout Greece, my youngest child, he got to go on a trip to Istanbul, Troy, Athens, Sparta. very jealous. That was about 20 years ago, about 10 years ago. And I would love to do that.

Rick Denton: 23:43

That would be quite the dream, wouldn't it now, both of those cultures, the Barcelona, the Spanish, the Catalan, all of that culture and the Greek culture known for their foods. So what's a favorite thing to eat?

Jim Tincher: 23:55

Oh, my favorite would be pinchos I think is the thing right? In Barcelona, where it was different kinds of food where you could eat led you to counter the sticks when you're done that somebody euros you paid. I know I'm cheating. But it was all these different kinds of food that were there were fabulous. We also got to learn about Spanish ham. Oh, yeah. That is nothing like what I grew up in Iowa. There is nothing in common besides maybe a little bit of the color that is a completely different type of meat. Oh, it was so good.

Rick Denton: 24:28

I am laughing because by the time this episode releases, the episode I'm referencing now will have already come out but at this point, it's not only I know about it in the guest, but my last guest just talked about hormone and how awesome so I'm laughing a little bit about how oh my gosh, I'd never discussed this and now it's coming up all the time. But yes, brilliant thing. Now let's go the other way. What is the thing your parents forced you to eat but you're hated as a kid?

Jim Tincher: 24:54

Potato soup. Oh, really? flour, water flour. and potatoes.

Rick Denton: 25:01

Okay, so I'm thinking baked potatoes.

Jim Tincher: 25:03

No no no different. Oh, no, no, it was. Yeah, that was something I could not. Oh, I just did not like at all. You know, of course there were the standard green things but potato soup was a staple of my mom's. And no that was that. Okay, we do not eat potato soup anymore. It's good to paraphrase George Bush, he said, I'm the president. I'm not eating broccoli. I'm a grown up. I'm not eating potatoes.

Rick Denton: 25:27

I love it. Brilliant. I support you in that. What is one travel item not including your phone, you will not leave home without

Jim Tincher: 25:38

Ah, let's see. Um, I It's kind of a boring answer, but would be converter. But let's go something more interesting and a converter as an answer before, Rick Steves travel guide that we use that in Barcelona, we also used it in England and Ireland. It is fantastic. You get introduced to things that you never would have gone to. So Rick Steves is travel guide.

Rick Denton: 26:06

Jim, you mentioned being in the health insurance or the medical space before. And it's that's an area not really associated with great customer experience. And you alluded to some of that when you were describing earlier, but you'd mentioned a phrase to me when we talked earlier. Hug your customers? Yes. Tell me about what you want to do with those hugs and what changed as a result of those hugs.

Jim Tincher: 26:30

So when I was at the organization, I started out as a product guy. And I led the nation's largest line health savings accounts. And what I learned was that force an individual who was on the right health plan, and whose company was offering hundreds of dollars, one out of seven wasn't opening the account. They were turning that deliberately. But they were they were saying no to hundreds of dollars of free money free money. And as a bank, that was money that would be in our accounts and bait. That's where we get our profit. And we didn't know why. We did all the analysis, we looked at every demographic, age, income education, none of it mattered except where you worked. And there are two retailers in town. I'm in Minneapolis so Neapolitans will know who I mean. But it's talking about the red versus the blue retailer. And the red retailers that 93% average balance of $1,200. In the blue was a 53% opening the account, average balance of$333. We didn't know why. And so I could put together a program called hug your customers where I'd take people out and to meet customers. And first of all, first thing I learned is don't call the program hug your customers. Because one of the sales reps use that with our customers. It was awkward because Minnesotans we don't hug. That was that was an awkward there. But we, what we learned we went out and did that is we visited all these really excellent organizations that were very successful. And what we found very consistently, it was those of the clients that ignored all of our advice, use any of our materials, they did things on their own. And that's a hard message and said, really everything we're doing is wrong. But because we didn't talk to customers, we created the materials, we wanted to read that we're about tax savings and investment options and all these very advanced features. When I did our first satisfaction study, I learned that what customers most wanted to do is figure out how to log into the website. But the most important thing we learned was that the really effective customers didn't share data. They told stories, they talked about how the Health Savings Account, allow people to save up for a surgery they have allowed them to choose a health plan with lower with lower monthly fees, which they could put more money into the account so that they would be have money they need when they needed it. They told stories about the individuals as a way to engage a consumer and then presented the facts after that instead of starting with the facts.

Rick Denton: 29:14

That idea of story is so important. Right? And I can see that scenario taking place in the company you're describing that we've got these great ideas I mean hey I use healthcare so I know what's right for all of my customers are clearly all going to think like me working inside of this company. I'm in this boardroom. They all share my perspective this is going to be great. And it had to have been the comical and humbling at the same time to be slapped in the face with the customer saying yeah, your stuffs that's nice and all but when we use this people adopt the program and are better for it and have healthier lives because they have done that so sad to have been a bit of a wake up call of yeah, this this didn't work so well.

Jim Tincher: 30:00

But the most important fact was that I took my business partners with me. And so the VP of Marketing got to hear firsthand from the effective programs, how they communicated, and totally changed his strategy based on that. And that's the power of getting on talking to customers is you get to learn how they are or are not using your products, and how they are not seeing success. So you can change now does mean you stopped doing surveys, no surveys are really important for tracking and for showing, again, showing the quantitative side, in effect a program provides does both qualitative and quantitative, the personal, the impersonal? All in the sense of understanding what customers need so we can drive our organization to accomplish that?

Rick Denton: 30:47

I love it, I think I almost want to know not almost I'm gonna have to end there. Because I took a look at the clock and my gosh, we're already out of time. Once again, what'd I say in the intro, you and I got into a conversation, we started another customer, we ran out of time, there's so much more that I want to ask you about. But I love the idea of ending on. Look, listen to your customer, you know voice of the customer. Well, that can literally mean the voice of the customer. Get out there, hug your customer, get out there and hear what they actually have to say not to the exclusion of any of your other customer listening posts, but the value of getting out there. And I'm sorry to say this to the Minnesotan. But get out there and hug your customer. A brilliant thing, Jim, if people want to get to know more about you more about the services that you and your company to provide, or even a little bit more about the book, how can they get in touch? Where can they find this?

Jim Tincher: 31:34

Well, heartofthecustomer.com is for the site, dob2bbetter.com will bring you to more about the book as well as the conference putting on in two weeks, October 18, where we'll actually have the changemakers speaking, we'll have somebody there from Dow. Jen is promoted, Ricardo has taken over her role and he was her right hand. So he's going to be speaking about how they tied to business value. Roxie will be there Nancy will be there as well, some other changemakers talking about the real work that they're doing. So dob2bbetter.com And lastly, of course, LinkedIn can always

Rick Denton: 32:06

excellent. I'll get all that in the shownotes including that conference link there so that people can learn more about that and, and I mean, sounds like a pleasant time to be up there. Anyway. So the good time of year to go check out not only the the great insight there, but the great weather that you're going to experience as well, Jim, I've really enjoyed the conversation. They thank you so much, even if we did run long, because we always do but I enjoyed talking with you. Thanks for the wisdom, the insight and get out and hug your customer. Right.

Jim Tincher: 32:32

You got it. Thanks, Rick.

Rick Denton: 32:36

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.