The one with the Uber of BPOs - Claas van Delden, Chief Growth Officer for yoummday - E109

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🎤Customer & Employee experience transformation for BPOs in “The one with the Uber of BPOs” with Claas van Delden, Chief Growth Officer for yoummday in CX Passport E109🎧

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction

2:10 An Uber-platform for BPOs?

5:00 Why are BPOs ripe for disruption

8:31 So why would this be better for customer experience?

12:17 The best way to learn from front lines 

16:05 A story of a client making immediate changes using real-time customer insight 

17:36 1st Class Lounge

21:59 How does this model help employee experience?

25:20 Opening up opportunities for underserved talent communities

26:40 How to equip a fully independent and remote talent base

30:37 Learning from the global talent base

33:20 Contact info and closing

Hosted by Rick Denton “I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport”

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Episode resources:

yoummday - www.yoummday.com

Transcript

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Rick Denton: 0:00

Why is this approach better for the customer?

Claas van Delden: 0:04

So, at yoummday we are a firm believer in the mantra that happy talents make for happy customer interactions.

Rick Denton: 0:21

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Waldorf Astoria of the Walmart of the Cadillac of the Uber of iconic brands become a descriptor of a particular style of business, the class of service or a business model. They'll catch your ears even if you've heard the phrase applied 1000 times. With the success of a platform model like Uber, plenty of industry seek to disrupt using that similar platform model. Today's guest comes from a company which does that for an industry I hadn't considered a target for this previously, the BPO industry. Talking to us today from Germany, Claas van Delden, Chief growth Officer of yoummday brings a new take on how a brand can deliver great customer experience. The Uber of BPO interesting, not only a great customer experience, this model seeks to deliver a great employee experience are the words of yoummday talent experience, what would it look like for someone in the BPO space? Today we're going to find out and pulling our passports out you know, there's a global aspect to talent and client delivering this model that I'll be curious to explore. How can a platform model for something as personal as customer contact, not just adapt to a global talent base, instead, rather thrive on that diversity of experience and expectations? We'll dive into that today as well. Claas Welcome to CX passport.

Claas van Delden: 2:07

Thank you for, for having me, Rick, it's a great pleasure to be with you.

Rick Denton: 2:11

This. And I just love that we're sitting here as casually as if we were in a coffee shop, I shouldn't be so surprised or just enjoying it. But here we are separated by an entire ocean. And yet we're going to have a great conversation. They as casual as if we were having a coffee, or perhaps a nice German beer, we'll see maybe someday that'll be the case. So I had mentioned that many have used the phrase that Uber have to describe their company. And I'm sure it's a mix of wanting to highlight the disruptive nature of their business along with leveraging a successful brand. So what do you mean, when you say that yoummday is the Uber of BPOS?

Claas van Delden: 2:48

Yeah, so just like Uber has built a new delivery model for transportation, in which they directly connect drivers and riders. We at yoummday have built a new delivery model for BPO services. And we connect the agents, whom we like to call talents on our platform directly with the clients. And just like Uber does it, we do it through a tech platform. So the core of the of our offering is our own proprietary tech platform, which connects talents and clients. And by doing that, we can we build a pretty lean structure. So if you look at how the service is being delivered, we can take out a lot of cost items that traditional BPOS would have. We don't need to maintain offices for the talent, we don't need to have office infrastructure, we don't need software licenses, because it's our own platform. We also don't need significant amount of management overhead. And we don't have to constantly manage employee turnover, which is a significant cost driver for for traditional BPO jobs. And most of these savings we actually pass on to the talents in the form of a better compensation for the work they do. And some of the savings we pass on to the clients so that we can actually be a little bit cheaper and more affordable for them. And that's the idea of the of the yoummday delivery model. Which is a marketplace just like Uber. And actually, just to add to that because people might want to wisely call him they yoummday stands for you made my day. And that is the feeling you're supposed to have. Once you've interacted with a company, be it as a client as as a talent as an end customer. Hopefully we can give you that feeling of Hey, they made my day.

Rick Denton: 5:01

You made my day. Who knows? You may have just made the title of the episode without like, kind of like that you made my day. I didn't know that, even though we talked before the episode. Of course, I didn't know that about you. But that's really neat. You said something. I don't know if I visually reacted to it. But when you started to say that we, we take these cost savings by being a platform. And I would imagine that listeners ears were prepped for this. I know my ears were prepped for you to say. And it allows us to bring a lower cost to our customers. And instead, you've said no, that cost savings is then applied. First, you said it first to the talent. I wasn't expecting that. So I do want to get into employee or talent experience later. That is it caught me off guard. I was not expecting that. So that'll be interesting to explore. I want to just go almost. So this is all about disruption. It's something new, it's something different. What about the BPO? Industry? Why did you feel like it needed to be disrupted? What was it about the state of the BPO industry that motivated you to and in the founding of yoummday? Yeah.

Claas van Delden: 6:04

So the founders started the company back in 2016. That was pre COVID. And back in the day, at least, over here in Europe, there was a lot of unhappiness in the BPO industry. So it was basically everywhere, agents were unhappy, because they only got minimum wage, they didn't feel much appreciated. Customers were unhappy because they got a pretty lousy customer experience. But clients were unhappy. And when I talked to clients, I mean, the b2b clients, because they felt this is a pretty expensive service for what it does. And the BPOS were unhappy because they didn't make a lot of money, at least a midsize BPOS that were running more or less at breakeven. So and with with all of that happiness in the traditional delivery model, our founders thought, hey, there's got to be a better way, there's got to be in 2016. With so much technology around, there's got to be a better way of delivering the service. And actually, they came up with what they call the human day formula. Because back in the day, an outsourcing hour was about $35 and the agent would get paid 10. And the remaining 25 went to you know, the things I talked about earlier, the cost for the office, the infrastructure, the management, overhead, the churn, etc. So the idea of the founders was, can we find a way to pay the talent 20 instead of 10. And just add a little bit of a take rate for our software platform, maybe 40%. So that will get us to 28, which is still 20% cheaper than the 35 that the BPO or cost at the time, that whatever was the volume day formula. And we're still basically operating according to that formula today.

Your CX Passport Captain: 8:06

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Rick Denton: 8:32

I shouldn't make an assumption like this. But I'm gonna go and said I don't think a lot of folks would you know naturally say that they thought that the BPO industry was one that needed its own sort of cost reevaluation because the inherent nature of BPO, at least those of us outside of that industry think, hey, it's already a cost play, like a company chooses to outsource because it's cheaper. And so that, and BPO can do it with a better margin and all that. And so I hear that that part of the inspiration was absolutely the margin, the economics of it. And there's also the the the the talent element of it as well. I know you're gonna get into that, as we talk about talent experience. I just wasn't expecting to think that the industry itself needed to be disrupted. Well, here we are. And it is. Now this is this is a podcast about customer experience. It's not just about BPOs, even though we've talked to a lot of BPOS. I think that's a key element of the delivery of customer experience. Now, I'm curious about how this approach to it how this models approach to it actually improves the customer experience. When when you think of the yoummday platform. I know I said we're talking about talent and employee experience here and a little bit, but what about the customer experience? Why is this approach better for the customer?

Claas van Delden: 9:45

So at yoummday, we are a firm believer in the mantra that happy talents make for happy customer interactions.

Rick Denton: 9:57

Amen.

Claas van Delden: 9:57

And customers can really tell if they're talking to somebody that loves her job, and likes doing what they do and is engaged. And that's why we're extremely focused on talent, happiness and talent, happy satisfaction on the platform, talent. Net Promoter Score is one of our most important KPIs. And by the way, it ranks consistently above 60, which is a value that at least over here in Europe is pretty much unheard of in the industry.

Rick Denton: 10:31

We get into a side discussion about the difference in scoring about experience between Europe and the West. We won't do that. But that could be a whole nother topics.

Claas van Delden: 10:42

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that, you know, customer experiences on average in Germany are not greater than in the US or anywhere else in the Western world, I'm pretty sure that

Rick Denton: 10:53

from a perception perspective, you're absolutely right.

Claas van Delden: 10:55

So for the customers, that's the most important part, they talk to people who love what they do. And you can also measure it in terms of KPIs in terms of CSAT, in terms of first time resolution rates, we, we aim to be among the top three in our benchmark categories with our clients all the time. And we typically can get two to the top three position pretty soon. So that's, that's what we aim for. And then for the clients, one of the things we see in all of the markets in which we operate is that they face a tough labor market. Labor markets are tight, basically everywhere in the western hemisphere. And it's hard to find, and when and retain talent. And therefore, we we have a very interesting value proposition to the clients. We have a talent pool with about 9000 quality check people currently, they are located across the globe, you could say it's 60 different countries. So basically, we give clients access to a global talent pool. And that's, that's pretty interesting.

Rick Denton: 12:18

That that idea of a happy talent. Yeah, it's almost cliche at this point, the idea of, you can't create a better customer experience. And we provide an employee experience yet many companies still get it wrong, we can we can say it out the wazoo. But if we don't actually do something about it, that's that company, that's the customer, or I guess it's really sort of your customers customers experience that you're describing. And I know that that's something that's it's the epicenter of a lot of what my consulting practices that I work with clients around that voice, the customer, there's a total Voice of the Customer approach and how that brings business growth. And that first step is listening to the customer and then acting upon it, of course, and it's those talent, the talent at the BPOS that are closest to the customer, they're co creating this experience with the customer with every contact. And so I can see how that because the talent is in a great space, they deliver a great customer experience for that customer. I'm curious, though, how can the BPO How can you de use the insights that they're getting? Because the frontlines right, they're gathering it co creating it with the customer? To provide better insights to your customer to their client? What's the best way to capture the insights that you're gleaning right there at the front lines? And then sharing those insights with your customer?

Claas van Delden: 13:36

Yes, that's that's a great question. And I think total voice of the customer is a great concept. Quite frankly, I see a lot of untapped value there still, by really listening to the customer and acting on the customer feedback. One important part of that is technology, of course. And with the human day platform, we can record all of the conversations that are happening, we can you know, analyze them for positive and negative keywords for sentiment for Share of Voice in a certain conversation does the does the customer get to tell his story is and we can run AI software over that to immediately give the client an overview of what's going on in their customers conversations. But that is only one part of the story. Even more important from our point of view is the empathy of the talent because they only they can create this human interaction, right? And then we need to find a way to structure the customer feedback and feed it back to the client and there's a lot of different actions samples, how we do it actually, for example, we have a live shopping client. And with a live shopping client, one of the things that frequently happens is customers calling in saying, Hey, I found this product somewhere else, and it's actually cheaper. And so what we do is we feed that back immediately. And even while this the show is still going on, that can change the price tags for these products, or other example is sizes, so they ship the products, people would unwrap it and find out where this comes in a little bit of a bigger size than anticipated or smaller size, they would call Customer Care. And we can immediately feed that back to the client and tell them you know, in the next show, please tell them that they should, if in doubt, get a larger size in order to avoid having to return the product. That's some of the things that we actually do.

Rick Denton: 15:56

I'm curious if I can interrupt the flow there for a second? How because that's awesome, right? That that kind of real time insight is probably what every brand craves, whether it's from an internal source or an external source, whatever that is. How are you gathering that from your frontline so vibrantly, and actively to be able to pass it back to the brand and allow the brand and or aka your customer to give that customer that insight so that they can act on it.

Claas van Delden: 16:23

Well, in this case, it's about well trained team of talents, they know what okay, what feedback to capture. And then we basically have a direct communication with the the producer that runs the show. So they want that direct feedback channel because they know that whatever feedback they get, it will help them to sell the product while while the show is still on. And this is the most immediate feedback we give. Sometimes we're also trying to anticipate customer feedback. So for example, for one of our telco clients, we run the technical hotline. And we know that the technical hotline or the volume in the technical hotline is heavily related to weather incidents. So if you have for example, thunderstorms coming up, you can immediately tell that the day after there will be a lot of calls coming in because the internet is not working because got it yeah. And we use that information to kind of predict volumes and adapt our our shift planning and capacity planning in order to be able to listen to the customers once they have something to tell.

Rick Denton: 17:41

Claas, I love that I love the idea of being ahead of the curve. Now I'm going to take you on a little bit of a change here. But for you to join me here in the first class lounge. It's great. You actually you know what I'm sitting here thinking about when you said thunderstorms, and the telco absolutely right. You know, the internet service kind of gets glitchy or something else like that goes awry. But I was thinking about thunderstorms, because that's had such an impact on air travel in the US, particularly recently. And I'm sure globally it affects folks. And so when that happens when a thunderstorm passes through and your flight gets canceled, or you're delayed by six hours, Isn't it nice to step in the first class lounge so I would love for you to join me here today. In the first class lounge, we'll move quickly here and have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?

Claas van Delden: 18:27

That's not an easy one to answer because there are so many. I love this question. Actually. One of the places that our family really likes is a place in northern Italy. It's called Piedmont. It plays the landscape was rolling hills. It's less known than Tuscany, but it's gotten better wine and better food. Actually when a small food movement was invented. So I can remain Piedmont to everybody who's interested in food and why

Rick Denton: 19:00

oooh throwing it down a little Tuscany shade being thrown there. Okay, this could be an interesting battle, I'll have to have someone from from Tuscany come and represent itself. So what is a dream travel occasion you've not been to yet.

Claas van Delden: 19:17

Also quite a number. I haven't been to Australia, because it's so far away. I haven't been to Hawaii for the same reason. And I have not yet been to Texas, and they definitely want to go there. So it might be a chance to meet in person. For 2023 that's on the agenda.

Rick Denton: 19:36

Excellent. Well, I'll tell you this out of those three and I love my state. I certainly love the city not where I live now but the city where I grew up Austin, Texas, a beautiful place. I totally recommend visiting there. But I would prioritize Australia or Hawaii over both of them over Texas with no lack of love for where I am and the food here is great. And there's some beautiful things to see as well. But I would prioritize this Maybe I'm biased because I don't know. But I still welcome you heartily, we will lift a Texas brew and we will enjoy some barbecue as well. In that vein clause, what is a favorite thing to eat?

Claas van Delden: 20:12

So we didn't connect on that answer. But what I wanted to actually at home currently, I'm being put more and more on a vegan diet, because most of the healthier and I must admit, I do enjoy a good barbecue from time to time. So and maybe in Texas sometime later this year, but also at home. Yeah.

Rick Denton: 20:38

Well, Vegas already has the phrase what stays in Vegas stays in Vegas. But from a meal perspective Claas, if you come here, we just won't report what you had to eat while you were traveling the state. Let's go the other direction. What is the thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hate it as a kid?

Claas van Delden: 20:55

Yeah, and I hope that our two daughters are not listening to that podcast. But I must admit, there was quite a number of things. Among them very high scoring on the list was broccoli, which even today is not my favorite vegetable. But I've learned to cope. You know, nowadays, I can live with it. Yeah.

Rick Denton: 21:20

I like that, uh, I've had that with guests before where they've said, you know, my kids aren't listening, but I hate whatever. So it looks like we continue to force our kids to eat the things that we know are healthy clauses, you think about the travels, that you've done the travels that you intend to do, what is one travel item, not including your phone, not including a passport that you will not leave home without?

Claas van Delden: 21:40

So there's got to be some sort of music? And if it's not on the phone, maybe it's in the form of a Walkman like back in the 80s. Or I don't know how couple of CDs I could still bring but there's got to be a little bit of music when I travel.

Rick Denton: 22:00

Claas I love that the Walkman makes an appearance in the episode that is fantastic. Thankfully, I still remember my Walkman that we have moved well, those days, I still don't know how I actually went running with a portable CD player on my hip. It doesn't even make sense. I've been promising that we were going to talk about employee experience or in the human day phrasing talent experience. And we've talked about how it's good for your customer and for the customers customers. Let's talk about the talent. you've alluded to it a bit. But the BPO stereotype is that you you pay less, because there's this talent arbitrage this cost arbitrage by choosing a cheaper country or something along those lines. And it may not be as great for the talent experience. And so this model is different. It's not about paying less necessarily. So why is this model a benefit for talent? How does this improve talent experience?

Claas van Delden: 22:59

Yeah, so what we hear from talents is that basically, we're giving them their lives back, we're giving them authority over what they do, because in our model, they get to choose the client and the program that they want to work for, they get to choose the shifts that they want to be on. They, the job is 100% work from home, so there is no more commuting ever, which saves them a lot of time. Plus, they get better pay, which is also important, funnily enough, a lot of the talents are not using the better pay in order to really increase their income significantly, but they're also interested in reducing the working hours. So the rich, they work about 20 to 25 hours a week, which means that still where they're most important, the primary source of income, but nevertheless, they have more spare time to do other things in their lives. However, having said that, if there is a peak volume coming up in their clients programs, for example, and if there is a good earnings opportunity for them, they are willing to put in more hours so we can easily increase flexibility, increase capacity by 50%, if need be, which then again is great for clients. And we have one operations manager that used to work for traditional BPO. And he always kind of summarizes it. He says back in the day when I was responsible for shifts in traditional setting. I was the most popular guy with my team if there was not so much work, because that man got to you know, they had time for a coffee and a chat and a cigarette maybe here at Hume Bay I'm the most popular guy with my team if there's plenty of work, because then there's plenty of earnings opportunity. I see. That's how it actually, if there's not enough work, that's the most important driver for a low talent net promoter score. So we're trying to provide the town's with enough work. So they can make a decent, decent pay.

Rick Denton: 25:21

Yeah, yeah, interesting. And it is, if people are clamoring for more work than it sounds like that's a place that they want to be in a place that they would want to, to spend their time I do find it interesting that it's also the time trade off as well, that you can earn a similar percentage of your former income. And perform less, it seems like that would open this up to an additional talent base, maybe a talent base that has been excluded by other things, maybe childcare needs, or caregiver needs, or just simple whatever it is inside of their life that prevents them from working a traditional 40 hour week or whatever it looks like in the country in which they work. I imagine that this is opened up opportunities for other categories of talent, to be able to find a place to work, and really use a platform.

Claas van Delden: 26:15

Yes, absolutely. So we have a lot of working moms, we have people who take care of elderly persons in their household, we have people who are handicapped, and they find this works really well for them because they don't have to commute. Which depth. So it's exactly that it's opening the market up and including more people in the talent pool. That's, that's absolutely correct.

Rick Denton: 26:41

Awesome. And the more opportunities that are made available to more communities, all the better. Now, on the flip side of that, I imagine that they're your customers have a BPO, they're going to want to make sure that the folks that are picking up the phone, answering the chats, resolving whatever issue that is handling whatever business element that they've outsourced, is well equipped to do that. Now, I've got imagine that's a bit of a challenge in your model, that you're having to do this fully remotely. So how do you solve that challenge of tech support remote training, coaching growth, when you're talking about a completely 100% work from home setting?

Claas van Delden: 27:21

Yeah, that's a very important topic. And actually, if, you know, during the pandemic, more or less, everybody moved to work from home model. And you could tell that a lot of a lot of providers didn't really embrace it, they didn't really like it, because they felt that they lost control in that whole situation. Now, human there has been 100% work from home since the beginning. And we've really had a steep learning curve in the early years, because with the 1% work from home and working with self employed people, training, for example, needs to be a little bit different, it needs to be much more interactive, it needs to be a little bit more playful, we would like to, for it to be, we call it snackable. So that the talents can actually choose which courses they want to take a shorter, shorter modules, videos, etc. And we also find that training needs to be practice oriented. So if, for example, we have a four week training for a client, we would typically do one week of training, and then they can start listening to calls another week of training, and then they can take their own calls with a coach at their side. Because it helps them to just lose that fear of what's going to happen if I do that first customer conversation. And we actually had tremendous experience with that and found that if you do it like that, you can you can have 100% of the people who have joined the training in the beginning actually then doing calls in the program, which which is pretty strong, I guess. And the same goes for coaching and support. Even though these are remote teams, they need to feel that they are part of a team. So there is constant chat activity. There are contests, there are social events, like you know, they cook together, there's a wine tasting, they do escape room activities, that kind of stuff. Yeah, that really makes them feel part of the team and identify also with a with a customer brand.

Rick Denton: 29:42

Okay, so that actually i i like that. It reminds me of something that I did. Well, years ago with a consulting client. I didn't do it but I was part of this where they had a fully work from home model and they've created this this regional sort of gathering model. I'm grossly simplifying but it sounds very similar that yes, where we might be a work from home workforce, and we might even be a self employed workforce. But there's a lot of us in this one city or that city or this community. So let's gather out Oh, okay, so that actually makes some sense there that it is remote, but it's not intended to be lonely. It's not a lone wolf. It just may not necessarily be at some brick and mortar office. Rather, I like the idea I'd rather meet at a wine tasting than the office anyway.

Claas van Delden: 30:28

And it can be a virtual wine tasting, if you have people from different countries, they can still try the same. Yeah,

Rick Denton: 30:38

that's right. I like that. That's I wasn't even thinking about that, which of course, we've had many virtual happy hours, if we've been a part of your. Claas, I do want to close out on a global perspective, at a CX passport, we've got our passports out, you've mentioned already that your talent locations are across the globe, and they're gonna continue to expand as you keep expanding globally. So you're gonna have a spectrum of cultures, you're gonna have a spectrum of experiences amongst that talent base. So I'm curious, how do you address those different expectations, and different cultures, but then that's addressing it. But then on the flip side of it, how do you benefit and learn from that wide diversity of the talent base.

Claas van Delden: 31:17

So one very important part of it is the respect for the broad variety of people and cultures that was on the platform. And it starts with simple things like holidays. So if you do the shift planning, the people can choose themselves, which are the important days that they want to have, that they don't want to work and all of that. So it's about this respect, and it's about meeting people eye to eye, basically, also, the team leaders need to have a cultural understanding. And then one of the great things we can provide, because talents are located in 60 Different countries across the globe is we can provide cultural affinity. So for example, we have a client that's in the hospitality business, they're doing vacation rentals, and they want talents to talk to their landlords and the home owners will come from the same culture. And and I can provide that, you know, if somebody from southern Spain should talk to somebody who at least knows what it's like being a homeowner in southern Spain, in southern Spain, and what the seasonality looks like, etc, etc. And that's what we can provide there. And this idea of, you know, a decentralized structure, which can be really close to the needs of the client and the end customer. This is something we really embrace at UMD. And I must say, we are really proud of the diversity that we've built on the platform. And it's still early days, you know, it's still it's only 60 countries. So hopefully one day it's gonna be the whole 210 or whatever.

Rick Denton: 33:06

Sometimes increasing, yes, yes. Well, Claas, I, I, there's a bit of a chuckle, as you said the number there because I think I have listeners in 61 countries. And so maybe I've got a listener from each of your talent bases. Great, I share that ambition of growing the countries as well. I like that idea I can, I can be trained to attempt to understand what it means to be from the south region of Spain, it's a lot different. If I grew up there, you could I could tell you all about what it's like to grow up in Austin, Texas. But it's not the same as me telling you or me being there, and having grown up in Austin, Texas, so I can see how that would be a great benefit. And something that would be nice to leverage. Both inside the yoummday community, hey, here's all the things we can learn from each other. And then also out to your clients class. I really enjoyed this conversation. How can people if they want to learn more about you your approach to customer experience or learn more about the yoummday platform? How can they get in touch.

Claas van Delden: 34:06

So our website is yoummday.com. With a double M, I think I hope we might be able to display the contact details.

Rick Denton: 34:15

I'll get it right down there in the show notes. Just scroll down everybody, and you'll be able to get there and click directly.

Claas van Delden: 34:20

Exactly. And then I'm happy to take your emails and even calls and it'd be great to get in touch.

Rick Denton: 34:27

Awesome. Again, I'll get all of that into the shownotes class. I love this conversation I do. I really appreciate you getting to understand what it meant to have this idea of the Uber of BPOS and how it affects not just the customer and the customers customers experience but the talent experience and I love even at the very beginning how you lead with how it improves the talent experience and yes, I won't tell anybody what you eat, but I do welcome you to my state of Texas and I will feed you very well Claas. Thank you for being on CX passport today.

Claas van Delden: 34:57

Thank you very much for having me Rick. It was a great pleasure

Rick Denton: 35:03

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.