The one with the human experience - NYT Bestseller Joseph Michelli CEO The Michelli Experience E144

🎤🎞️“The one with the human experience” with NYT Bestseller Joseph Michelli CEO The Michelli Experience in CX Passport Episode 144🎧 What’s in the episode?...

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction

2:09 Airbnb and Mercedes’ customer experience strategies

8:14 Balancing operational incentives with customer experience

11:38 Prioritizing human interaction in customer service

15:50 Solving for gamification in customer feedback

19:00 Joseph’s radio career influencing CX today

20:08 1st Class Lounge

23:40 What is human experience?

26:22 Mental wellness and Bonfire Digital Wellness

30:16 Contact info and closing

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I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport

Episode resources:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephmichelli/

Website: https://www.josephmichelli.com/

Transcript

Joseph Michelli: 0:00

With increased automation more and more self serve is going to be happening between brands and customers. So when you get a chance, when a customer actually raises their hand and says I opt human, the humans need to really do something more than just expedite calls.

Rick Denton: 0:17

You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. Today's guest is a true leader in the realm of customer experience. I am excited to bring Dr. Joseph Michelli to CX password today. Joseph has been a key player in the industry for over two decades currently serving as the CEO of the Michelli Experience, a full service human experience delivery company with a mission to quote serve those who have a passion to serve well. He's been a guiding force for leaders aiming to design and deliver loyalty building human experiences. It's not often I have the opportunity to address a guest as Dr. And honor today's guest certainly achieved having earned a PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Southern California. If you're an avid reader in the CX space, you might recognize his name Joseph authored several New York Times best selling books, including titles like stronger through adversity, the Airbnb way, and driven to delight the story about delivering CX in the Mercedes way. He's also written books about Starbucks, Zappos, UCLA and Ritz Carlton quite the brand list and a wealth of customer experience stories to share. Something I didn't know before I dug a little bit deeper into Josef's LinkedIn profile. Somebody puts my little High School radio internship and one semester college radio gig to shame with this over 30 years of radio experience that we find to hear those dulcet tones on today's show. Joseph, welcome to CX passport.

Joseph Michelli: 2:09

Hey, Rick, I am so excited to be here. I love your show. Thanks for having me.

Rick Denton: 2:12

Really appreciate that. Thanks for the kind words to get us startups got me all energized already. Let's start with those iconic brands, one of them Airbnb, as a platform, they've got a unique position because they sit between multiple parties. A customer can be both a traveler, or the property owner. And sometimes they can actually be both. They're also the cities and communities with a significant interest in Airbnb, how does Airbnb listen to all those customers, and balance what the parties say they need out of there customer experience?

Joseph Michelli: 2:43

Well, they brought in a great consultant Chip Conley came in and really helped them focus on what they called enlightened hospitality or kind of elevated hospitality and chip, if you'll remember rope drive kind of have met how Maslow gets us our mojo in business. And I think what they tried to do is realize that they don't actually control anything other than a platform. And that that platform enables them to bring together buyers and sellers, they have to kind of work within communities, there's a lot of pushback and resistance to short term rentals within communities. Their goal was to influence to the greatest degree possible the way in which people felt belonging while traveling. So if you look at the logo of Airbnb, that kind of paperclip looking thing, it's actually called the bay low. And it in its own right is approachable by virtue of the fact that you should be able to create that Veilleux with your toe in the sand. I mean, it's really designed to say from the onset, everything is about belonging, people should be able to travel everywhere they want, without prejudice. And so that's the underlying hospitality, what you want every single person to feel in the interaction and transactions associated with Airbnb, obviously, they don't control that there's pernicious behavior on the site. They tried to manage it with technology that used, you know, reveal rating systems between hosts and guests as ways to get greater transparency. But ultimately, it's an effort to say, well, we don't control the experience or the people who distribute it. We are responsible for setting what we want the Airbnb experience to be known for.

Rick Denton: 4:18

Yeah, so that you use the word control. And that's the one that actually was coming to mind when I was thinking about Airbnb. There's another example in that same space that I'd like to tease out a little bit as well. When these brands are, I guess the customer I can hear what you're saying. In still in my mind I'm thinking though No, Airbnb is responsible for the roaches that were in the house or the bad pictures that were in the house or that sort of thing. Another brand is similar but slightly different approach to Mercedes, for example, and at least in the US, the experience is controlled to the dealership network, which is not Mercedes your dealers. that are part of Mercedes but not the company itself. So in the Mercedes case and even expand even further in the air b&b, when the customer recognizes that brand, as the responsible party for customer experience, how are they navigating that when the execution of that experience is done through other parties, like the homeowners or like the dealership network, or through through other elements? Well, I

Joseph Michelli: 5:25

think they're two very different examples. But they're very similar in some ways. So let me give you the difference at Airbnb, what they control is access to the listing and or your ability to book rooms. So they're gonna control that by if you get enough Roach complaints in your property, you're gonna be hard pressed to ever find you when people search for a property in your neighborhood, right, so they're gonna control it through the algorithms on search. The same is true with a guest guest who's unruly on tour is going to banned from the platform at the extremes. But certainly, it's gonna be more difficult for them for host to accept their their booking on the Mercedes example, much more interesting in the sense that there's a lot of skin in the game for these dealers, they get all the brand equity of Mercedes Benz, there's limited regional territory, they're the dealer in that territory. So there's a lot more of a partnership between those two, but you're right, it's still all of an influence play. So in real quick terms, and Mercedes, we got a giant change in behavior at the at the dealership level, when we negotiated with the dealer body and said, Look, you get a certain amount of money fixed revenue from every car sold, and you get a certain percentage of revenue based on variable factors. We'd like for you to give up some of your fixed income and increase your variable factor. Now that's a hard sell right up, whoa, let that variable factor to be linked to customer experience. So you think initially, they'd say no, but we then went in and said a little bit further. By the way, in the old days, whenever we give you a variable, we would keep anything that you didn't earn, right? So we hold it back. We went to them said no, not this time, we will give everything of that fixed back to those who meritoriously deliver an incredible customer experience. Now this took buy in at Daimler in Germany, it to buy into the dealer body. But interestingly enough, as soon as that got linked up, as soon as there was real skin in the game that said, look, I can actually make a whole bunch more money against the laggards among the dealer community. If I really focus on customer experience. Suddenly, you saw everyone improving their customer experience in order to capture that variable margin which was at stake within the within the system. So there are ways to influence and a lot of it links to profitability.

Your CX Passport Captain: 7:47

This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. <ding> While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.

Rick Denton: 8:14

Yeah, so I often have talked about when I've been in customer experience influence where either like my prior before my consulting days, when I was embedded inside of a company or with clients today, it's a lot about incentives, capital I incentives, dollars actual tangible, and then a lowercase die incentives, culture, celebration, those sorts of things. You're talking about the capitalized, you're talking about the hard dollar one. Now, this is gonna

Joseph Michelli: 8:40

be really quick. But there's some great Forrester research that shows that people intend to do the right thing for customers. If you ask people, it's like, yes, my kids have a great sense of humor, and they're incredibly attractive. The same is true with customer experience. We want to do the right thing. But oftentimes in organizations, the incentives work against us, you know, our bonuses are driven not by delivering great customer experiences, but by churn and burn. So if you look at it from that vantage point, incentives, whether they're financial or cultural, are really where you have to work in the customer experience space. It's not just a feel good. People want to care about others. Yeah.

Rick Denton: 9:16

Actually, let's talk about that for a second because it's not an example that we had in the Mercedes in the Airbnb, but where I see that a lot is in the contact center, that the the incentives are tied to operational metrics that are frequently in direct opposition to the customer experience. And one of the classic ones is call handling time, like how long a call takes place. And yes, as a customer, I want the call to be done as quickly as possible. There's gaming to be had though, if I'm an agent that realizes that this because column may not may be taking a little bit longer, how can I just get it wrapped up? How can I get it moved on and not deliver that great customer experience? How have you helped companies balance that operational incentive because Yeah, there's there's a reason that operational metrics exist with customer experience, metrics, and assigning incentives correctly, let's just use that term, assigning incentives correctly between that blend, well,

Joseph Michelli: 10:14

and I had the good fortune of working with the late Tony Shea, who was in charge of Zappos, Zappos has really created a great contact center where they've changed the metrics around, you know, what you're really looking for is did we create a personal emotional connection? Do we resolve the problem with in our policies? And then we go one step beyond? What are the metrics that we measure on the back end, we measure Net Promoter Score, we measure resolution and we measure whether or not somebody would be willing to steal you if they ran a customer service business. So in a zero to 10 scale, how likely am I to want Rick to work with me, if I were running a customer service business, so those are very different metrics return to call is a metric. So you know, I can't lag a lot between calls, but time in cold not so much as long as resolution personal emotional connection, and, and the output was something that the customer felt was was right, I think it is understanding that this is one of those great moments in a relationship with a customer with increased automation, more and more self serve is going to be happening between brands and customers. So when you get a chance, when a customer actually raises their hand and says I opt human, the humans need to really do something more than just expedite calls. So I say that lovingly knowing that there's less and less humans available to provide care. But when people do have to have a human solve a problem that can't solve a technology, that human had better be compassionate, as well as knowledgeable. Well, you

Rick Denton: 11:38

are like I could just stop down on this because you are hitting my heart and where I really care the most. The episode has, I guess, by the time yours comes out, it will have come out with speaking with Rajiv Elodie at Spotify. And he talked about Yeah, we are absolutely trying to create as many self serve options as many digital solutions for the customer as possible. Yet, when they do get to a human, we want it to be the most human experience the most effective, we want it to be something that is what that human wants. And what I liked that you were saying there is it's, it's so many companies look at that as a failure, oh, gosh, they had to take it to a human. And I get the idea of trying to optimize, you're saying no, no, no embrace the opportunity to seek that deeper connection. And a company like Zappos has demonstrated that classic, like all, so many, many of us in this world have heard that example, and definitely embrace it. I'd like to see more and more companies embracing that and viewing that contact center, that human part of it is actually an opportunity to gain great insights and build that ongoing loyalty, as well, as

Joseph Michelli: 12:45

so much of what you said, Rick, that I absolutely love to I mean, one of the things that I think of is how much money we spend trying to get customers to come to us, like, please come to me, I'm gonna be really good for you, right? And then they come to us. And whenever we have a human interaction, that's our chance to take and really live the commercial that we have sold them on, right? Like, this is your walking, talking commercial, when you walk into my store, when you interact with one of our people. That's where you get the true experience that we promised you in the brand messaging. And so I think sometimes you get it in the technology. But frequently, the technology is just parody. I mean, everybody is trying to find the best self service options, the minimizing any kind of human contact options. Everybody's trying to do that, because customers don't want to have to reach out to human right when they do get to you. That's the coolest part of our business is helping those people understand their unique value proposition relative to artificial intelligence.

Rick Denton: 13:40

Yeah. Joseph, I'm going to ask you a question that is so incredibly open ended, that I'm not sure there is an answer. But that's why I like talking to folks like you, you may have the answer. Okay. You and I agree on this. We know it's right. And we know that it's going to create actual tangible business results in the idea of increased revenue, increased loyalty, whatever. Why? Why are companies continuing to treat the human as perhaps the area that isn't focused? That is the area of cutting, whether it's the frontline at a retail store, or the contact center agent, that frontline often is diminished as the lesser role, when that's such a great opportunity? I'll just stop there. Why is doing that?

Joseph Michelli: 14:22

The answer is C. Whenever I was in doubt, in a multiple choice exam, I always chose C. So I'm going to choose C now.

Rick Denton: 14:29

Right? Okay, good.

Joseph Michelli: 14:30

Next question. But, in seriousness, I think what happens here is we understand humans cost a lot. And attracting talented humans is challenging, and developing human talent is challenging. It is easier to perfect algorithms with more data than it is to help people become more nuanced in the way they serve other human beings. The other thing is I don't think we spend enough time understanding what do we want people to feel when they leave our business? So for me, I've created this concept called a you know a way we first statement in every brand should identify what they want every customer to feel every single time, no excuses. And once you've done that, and so a Mercedes that was still like, for example, example, that's the title of my book driven to delight. Once you define that, then you can measure you can say to customers on a zero to 10 scale. how delighted were you today with your service that Mercedes and early on those scores were pretty pathetic. But we aspire to teach people that they got raw material walking in the door, not like a manufacturing plant, where you get uniform material and you impose a process on it, you get point 0001 defects. Now we have raw material with such variability, we're going to impose some processes on it, but your nuanced service levels are going to be the difference between whether or not that person walks out delighted or not. And so yes, we have to take the raw material and pose our processes nuance it, and then we're still going to measure against outcome.

Rick Denton: 15:50

That's good. That's good. Joseph. I like that a lot i You can tell that the brain is steeping in that a bit. Let's let's go back to that Mercedes example, for an example. And maybe let me not pick on Mercedes specifically, because maybe they have solved for this. But the the auto dealership industry is widely viewed as one of the worst offenders at what I'm about to bring up. And I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about. And it's the gamification of this. I'll use the term survey but just soliciting that feedback from the customer. And it's the classic stories of you know, my kids won't get to eat tonight, if you don't give me a 10 Don't turn in the survey, if you don't have a 10. Talk to me first, those kinds of things. Because of the incentives we talked about earlier, it's easy to see how that then puts that pressure on that dealership employee, how are you helping companies still get that input from the customers still focus on measuring, it's still trying to drive success, while extracting the gamification from it.

Joseph Michelli: 16:49

First off, I don't think Mercedes has solved completely for it, nor has any car dealer. Unfortunately, the entire industry is still working against a benchmark JD Power really matters. It's significant to the dealer community, a lot of incentives have been built around it. I think, wrongly, anytime you link incentives to customer experience, and view it as an outcome as opposed to a developmental opportunity, you're really missing out. But unfortunately, we do it all the time. What I think you can do, though, is give people some intel earlier on. So they're not waiting for a lagging metric, like net promoter score, as evidenced by JD Power. So you start giving them real time data, ongoing flow of data, instead of some retrospective look back from a customer. And you start to have them understand what it takes to be here really move the needle on the customer experience, that I think the focus is a smidge from it. But you know, Fred Reichheld, who created the net promoter scores is a friend of mine. And he would tell you the biggest problem he's had with his metric is how people have taken it and made it into the be all end all truth of whether or not you're delivering and then putting performance metrics around it. So I'm a I'm a big fan of saying, Hey, this is telling us something. What do we need to learn? Not this is telling us something? How much can you earn?

Rick Denton: 18:09

Please, absolutely. Preacher. So yes, again, hitting my heart with that, and I appreciate you coming here. Even Mercedes is still on that journey. I've experienced in luxury brands I've experienced in an economy brands. And so pushing that industry forward, the IOU describing the

Joseph Michelli: 18:26

irony is that we really need to tell this story, the more you try to do that with customers, the more they punish you. So this whole idea, the idea that it's somehow going to enhance your score is absolutely backfiring for for brands and there's research.

Rick Denton: 18:40

Well, it good. I'm glad to hear that there's scientific research because I can tell you unscientifically, this guy resents it so badly, that is sometimes okay, if I like the person, maybe I'll just ignore the survey. But yeah, it definitely is gonna knock it down in my eyes. Joseph, I want to take a totally different path. Because I'm always fascinated by people who have come to customer experience, leadership, customer experience, understanding who didn't come up in a quote, traditional CX path. I want to know about your radio experience, because I'm assuming that it's better than my little Wednesday 2am to 6am college radio shift, how did you take that radio experience, and then evolve into the CX leader you are today?

Joseph Michelli: 19:20

I think being on radio is just a form of communicating with people. It's a verbal format, it's just in the radio, you know, the imagination, but I There it is, for me, going from there into what I do today is a lot more about listening than it was about talking. And I think shifting that idea of not trying to be so interesting to captivate the listener while they're in their garage to stay around, you know, as they're parking their car to stay for the next segment. But but more now to be interested in people at an incredible level. That's how the shift happened for me, is it's not about me and about entertaining people. It's more about understanding People and solving their problems

Rick Denton: 20:08

Joseph I love that that shift now at some point I'd love to get deeper into what it was like to have three decades of radio experience and all that but we don't have time the show however even with the limited time we have I do want to take a little break with you here and I want to invite you into the first class lounge we'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun what is a dream travel location from your past

Joseph Michelli: 20:29

spend a month in Tuscany unbelievable Lots of wine, lots of food. Tell

Rick Denton: 20:34

me okay, I said we will move quickly and yet when you say Tuscany and a month, I want to stop down because that actually fits my fantasy travel really strongly where that's a place in the world that I'd want to just stop. What was it like to be there for a month?

Joseph Michelli: 20:48

Well, I speak a little Italian so I would savor the experience get up in the morning hang out with a bunch of other Italian guys standing up at an espresso bar chit chatting about things the slow life the slow eating the slow cooking to the kind of just appreciating that I wasn't on my cell phone and wasn't doing any business really was one of the first times in a long time where I completely recreated and got the energy I needed to come back strong. Oh man.

Rick Denton: 21:16

Oh man what of what an absolute fantasy but it was reality for you. I think that may need to be a future reality for me as being a future what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet? Well, in my

Joseph Michelli: 21:27

youth it was gonna be you know, hike, Machu Picchu. But given my advancing age, I doubt that's gonna happen. I think I'm gonna go with with a little more savoring the aisles of grease. How about that?

Rick Denton: 21:38

I like that as as my knees continue to age a little too much cross country when I was younger. Yes, I can appreciate that as well. You mentioned slow eating. I imagined foods important you because I know it's important to me. What is a favorite thing of yours to eat? Oh,

Joseph Michelli: 21:54

you know I eat everything but I think lots of pasta just because I was raised on pasta. So it doesn't matter what kind of pasta as long as it's got lots of carbs.

Rick Denton: 22:03

Brilliant love that now. Let's talk about that being raised Arab What is something while you were growing up that you absolutely hated and were forced to eat as a kid.

Joseph Michelli: 22:11

I'm not quite sure why my parents thought liver and onions was an essential but they had like not only was it bad and you had to eat it, but they had all these kind of healthy justifications on how it's going to you know grow my brain. I think I fed so much of it to the dog that the dog was incredibly intelligent by the time it was all done.

Rick Denton: 22:30

You wonder why the family pet was that incredibly intelligent? I've heard liver and onions a couple times and it it's not what I answered with that question. But my mom as well would put liver and onions in front I don't know if it's a generational thing I don't hear as much about it now but my gosh, it just was not

Joseph Michelli: 22:51

good. I refuse to do that to our children. We loved our children unlike my parents. I'm kidding.

Rick Denton: 22:57

Sorry mom. Sorry Dad. Don't listen to this part of the episode. Joseph what is one travel item not including your phone not including your passport that you will not leave home without?

Joseph Michelli: 23:06

Well I think your underwear is an important one to put in there probably but you know my computer I live on my computer I could probably do without my phone almost compared to my computer because I just am working all the time while I'm on the road. I also carry headphones with me earbuds with me because hotel rooms can get really loud across the world. So I sometimes sleep with my iPad and my earbuds

Rick Denton: 23:34

Joseph I'm a big fan of I don't put my earbuds in. But I it is one of my items is earplugs that that goes with me wherever it's sitting in my travel kit. It's just an automatic grab that it goes you never know which noisy road you're going to be next to and a good sleep is so important to travel. I want to talk about your company because I liked that tagline that I saw a full service human experience delivery company. That's the description I see for Miceli experience on LinkedIn and elsewhere human experience. I know that's not an accidental word choice. Tell me what you mean by human experience? And how do you work with companies to deliver that great human experience? Yeah, I'm

Joseph Michelli: 24:11

working on a new book about one medical which was purchased by Amazon last year for like $4 billion in the healthcare space. And they consider themselves human centered and textile technology powered. For me it is about understanding that we are here to take care of human beings and not necessarily people labeled customers or people labeled employees or stakeholder or shareholders for that matter. To me it is thinking about the universally human elements of us and leveraging our humanity to connect with other people.

Rick Denton: 24:42

How does that how does that resonate? Because like in a branding perspective, you know, it hits me it's warm, it's it and very few humans would say Oh, I don't want to focus on other humans. When you get into the kind of the nuts and bolts though, are you finding that companies might find that to sell oft How do you help them go from? No, this isn't just a tagline. It isn't just a, a, a soft thought. But actually no, this is actually driving towards real honest, get to God tangible results. If you focus on human experience, you know, just

Joseph Michelli: 25:15

human beings are incredibly complex, we need all the technology, we can't understand them, we need AI to look at preferences and patterns. And we need to look at sentiment through AI, we need to use all kinds of heavy duty technology to get into the inner workings of the human brain. Once we understand that we can position our services, some of which are self serve, but the ones that are not self serve have to really connecting humanity, I would also suggest to you that, you know, on the less human side of it, we can talk about personalization and making sure that I present to you the things that are relevant to you. On the more personal side, I can talk about all businesses personal and what matters most to you at the deepest parts of your life are the things that will connect you to a brand and make an experience memorable.

Rick Denton: 25:59

I'm, again, you've caught me, the challenge of being a host of CX passport is that a lot of times the guests will say something I just want to chew on like, I just want to steep inside my brain. So that may have to be edited out while I'm just sitting here staring at you because it

Joseph Michelli: 26:13

was so good. I think the reality is your show has covered all these topics. They're all inside of you, you're just kind enough to let us rant on about our own perspective on similar

Rick Denton: 26:22

things. Well, I appreciate that it is nice, Joseph to be able to hear it and just have this opportunity to have a chat about it. And that's why I actually like asking questions where I want to take you next and probably from a time perspective, I bet this closes out the episode we'll see there's so much more that I'd want to ask you. But that human experience, there's something else I noticed in your background that really caught my eye. And it's that that part of human experience is mental wellness. And I know that we're doing a much better job of recognizing and acknowledging that this is a real issue now to be discussed, actually talked about not that hidden away, and handled. I do though recognize we have a long ways to go and I saw that you serve on the Board of bonfire digital wellness, which is an I'm quoting here a virtual gym for youth mental fitness, I got a daughter that is so focused on. She's a freshman in university, she really wants to focus on youth mental fitness, especially in the competitive sport space. I'm really intrigued by this, what drew you to bonfire? And how are they addressing this growing challenge and youth mental wellness? Well,

Joseph Michelli: 27:28

there's a decrease in the number of school counselors available, it's hard to get mental health services through a psychologist these days or social worker. So clearly, there's a need to create opportunities, kids are on their phones anyway, can we leverage the digital platform as a way of doing good? So we know that kids are going to have a steady diet of digital streams and social media content? The question is how do we help them become discerning community consumers of that content and really be well in the way they use that content? On a broader level, we have a society of people who feel very alone, we have high anxiety and high pressure in our culture. So I think figuring out you know that many brands right now, there's a whole study out there, that's kind of interesting, the number of contacts that contact centers, from people who are just wanting to talk to somebody is going up. Yeah, right. I mean, it has nothing to do with the product array. They don't want self serve, they want a human that they can actually have a few minutes with. So I think we as a society have to come to grips with how do we build community and connections in a world that's largely mediated by digital technology? And how do we make sure that people have opportunities to understand how to leverage technology for the good, while also seeking out relationships in the human space?

Rick Denton: 28:42

That's going to be so vital. And I think those of us just I think you and I are at least in a similar age category, you look a lot younger than me. So it

Joseph Michelli: 28:52

but you obviously did research by background, I'm so older than

Rick Denton: 28:57

you and I though experienced, I would imagine our lives were part of that transitional generation where we know in the era where it was drinking out of the faucet on the side of the house, that there was not a digital experience. And now we live in that world, those that are native digital. Sorry, I said it backwards. But digital natives have a completely different experience and hearing what bonfire digital wellness is doing to help. I like what you said not resist it, but rather equip us to be able to live in that environment. This is such an important part. And yeah, I'd actually heard that about that. We're seeing more customer contact calls just simply for the human touch. There's a lot that oddly enough customer experience customer service can do to help.

Joseph Michelli: 29:43

I will just end by saying you know, we are what we write like if we eat a lot of carbs and pasta, we become more looking like a piece of pasta. But the same is true with our digital content consumption. Right? So figuring out how to help people make wise choices and and discipline choices about how they engage across the digital platform is pretty important. And I think that's part of why I'm involved with digital wellness and the bonfire community. So, but I am so honored to be a part of this digital experience, which felt incredibly humane. Well,

Rick Denton: 30:16

I appreciate that Joseph as well. And that, folks, as you've listened to Joseph, you probably are thinking, Well, I'd like to get to know more about his approach to human experience or learn more from the brands that he's developed, the experiences and the stories from and the like. So Joseph of folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about you a little bit more about the Michelli Experience, about the books that you've written, or the speeches that you give, where should they turn to learn more,

Joseph Michelli: 30:39

I am mercilessly all over the internet. So you can find me easily just put my name in, you'll find me. I'm at Joseph De Chelly. On LinkedIn, for example, and my website is just majority.com. Awesome. I

Rick Denton: 30:51

will get all that into the show notes and listeners, you just scroll down there as always, and just click the link you don't have to hit pause, you have to get a pen a pad or pull out your phone, you can just click right there. Joseph, it's been exactly what I want out of an episode of CX password. And that is I don't exactly know where the journey is gonna go. I may have put a map in place for us. But then we went wide ranging and I appreciate that learning from Airbnb for Mercedes, talking about bonfire, digital wellness, and even hearing about your radio experience. All of that has informed me and I know has informed the listeners it has been a very enjoyable episode for sure, Joseph, thank you for being on CX passport.

Joseph Michelli: 31:28

Thank you, Rick.

Rick Denton: 31:35

Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. If you liked today’s episode I have 3 quick next steps for you Click subscribe on the CX Passport youtube channel or your favorite podcast app Next leave a comment below the video or a review in your favorite podcast app so others can find and and enjoy CX Passport too Then, head over to cxpassport.com website for show notes and resources that can help you create tangible business results by delivering great customer experience. Until next time, I’m Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.