What is Southwest Thinking?! - LinkedIn live replay with Sam Stern E214

🎤🎞️“What is Southwest Thinking?!” REPLAY of earlier LinkedIn live with Sam Stern - CX Passport Episode 214🎧 What’s in the episode?...

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction: Replay of LinkedIn Live with Sam Stern

1:25 Southwest changes course: Bags no longer fly free

3:37 Customer reactions: Loyalty, emotion, and betrayal

9:31 Lost loyalty and long-term CX consequences

13:45 Firing customers to attract premium flyers?

17:44 JC Penney déjà vu: Misunderstanding your base

22:24 The goodwill tradeoff and operational ripple effects

24:08 What was Southwest really thinking?

32:21 Could Southwest lose its identity—or disappear?

33:14 Final thoughts: The employee impact

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I'm Rick Denton and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport

Transcript

Rick Denton: 0:00

Hey there. CX, passport travelers, this week is going to be a little different. A few weeks ago, I had the opportunity to record a LinkedIn live with Sam stern where we talked about what is southwest thinking with all the changes that they have done to their overall experience. So this week, enjoy the replay of that LinkedIn, live customer experience wisdom, a dash of travel talk, we've been cleared for takeoff. The best meals are

CX Passport Band: 0:24

served outside and require passport. Thank

Rick Denton: 0:28

you, everybody for joining this improv. As you can tell, incredibly improv, impromptu. What the heck is southwest thinking? And all of this stems from the announcement yesterday that Southwest nearlines has, amongst many other recent changes, one of the biggest was now you got to pay for your bags. They have to pay for bags. And I, along with the venting that I wanted to do inside my own house, I thought, Who better to bring into a conversation than to bring Sam Stern, one of the customer experience people that I value the most, value his reasoned thinking, as opposed to perhaps my emotional hot headedness, as we go through really, across three dimensions, I wanted to consider this is how we think of this as customers, how we think of this as CX people, and maybe try to get into the head of those who are making the actual decisions for folks. Can't explain that, but maybe we'll try first. Sam, for those I can't imagine, but for those who don't know you, who are you?

Sam Stern: 1:26

Yeah, thanks. Rick, so I work at LinkedIn. We're on. Have

Rick Denton: 1:29

gone silent on, oh, user user error. Hear me, I can user error on my side to carry on. Okay, great.

Sam Stern: 1:39

So for those don't know me, I lead the service design team at LinkedIn, so we're on LinkedIn, this LinkedIn live, and I work at LinkedIn, and we are creating better experiences for our 1 billion members and customers, and also for our colleagues, for Employees at LinkedIn, and I've been doing customer experience for 20 years or so. I was at New Balance before this, and at Forrester Research before that, in their customer experience practice, and that's where Rick and I met long ago. So sort of been off and on in touch since then. And yes, I have flown southwest. I have covered southwest. I have written about how they stand out and are unique within the airline industry. So you know, if I have to go back now and redo some of the things I've written in the past, is like the most selfish reaction I have to this news, because it's like they're no longer unique and differentiated in their industry the way they were. No,

Rick Denton: 2:37

no, no. I definitely Now one thing you didn't mention, though, Sam, unless I missed it when you were on when I was glitching, you've got a brilliant podcast as well I want to hear but thank you.

Sam Stern: 2:47

We're both podcasters, so CX patterns and is my weekly podcast, and potentially this, this conversation will be dropping in the feed at some point

Rick Denton: 2:58

with a highly, highly edited beginning of this, we're going to be able to do that. Yeah, Sam, I do. I It is funny to think how many decades, decades ago it was that you and I met. And just for those that don't know me, I'm Rick Denton. I'm the host of CX password. I too have a podcast. I also co host a podcast with my wife about empty nest life. But that probably well, actually, that is relevant here. But that podcast is called the loud quiet, if you wanted to, if you live or living that empty nest life as well. Sam, let's do that. Let's start your thoughts as a customer you started talking about as a CX professional, I would definitely want to hear about that. But just as a customer of Southwest, what do you have? Neil, when you first heard this news, yeah,

Sam Stern: 3:37

so it's been coming, I would say, even though they denied it months ago, that they would ever get rid of the bags fly free policy, right, that you get free checked bags. And let me give you my perspective from someone who is not their target market. I live in Boston. They don't have a lot of routes. From here, delta and Jet Blue have the most. And I like delta and Jet Blue, and I fly mostly on those two airlines, and don't love southwest. So for me, I was looking at it thinking, hey, they're introducing features like, I never check bags, so I don't care about check bags free. I like getting an assigned seat. So they're doing things that make them more in line for me to be their customer, and I still think it's a huge mistake, because I still won't prefer them to Delta when I fly out of Boston, because delta, I think, still has a better passenger experience for me as the target customer. And so I think that is a good example of where they are so muddling who they're for and what their differentiation is that they're doing things that make them more appealing to someone like me, and yet making me and people like me, I would guess, no more likely to fly with Southwest, to choose southwest. Yeah,

Rick Denton: 4:52

yeah, that. And that's that differentiation thing is something that I think we're going to talk a little bit more about the the. See for me, I am a target southwest, yeah, I live in Dallas. It is a part of the Dallas heritage, right? That's part of our lore. It's part that it was an employer of choice for the longest time. In fact, they were well known for paying below market salaries because they were viewed as an employer of choice. People wanted that brand associated with their career history and as a customer. I felt betrayed. Yeah, I just it was, it was on a moat when I saw that it, I actually felt that same sort of betrayal that I might have felt from the spurning of a high school girlfriend it. I mean, it really was that kind of at the emotion layer, there's a lot of functional things, but when a brand has touted itself as bag fly free, brand has said, this is, this is who we are, and why we're different, and why you should be a part of us. I bought in, and I for the longest time, there are a lot of folks that I fired another Dallas based airline from my domestic business, and I was mocked, yeah, I think I'll say that I was mocked by many of my other business colleagues for doing so because of things that were perhaps not as business we're in. There was no first class, no upgrades, open seating, that sort of thing. But I bought into the brand, the friendliness, the bags fly free. I loved that aspect of it. And when they changed it, it was like they said, Rick, we don't care about you. And they said that to millions of Ricks around the country, 100%

Sam Stern: 6:31

and that's why I was framing it like I was, is there's they're breaking up with Rick times, and, you know, millions, and they're not making their themselves more appealing to Sam and the millions like me who have preferences with other airlines, as you're talking about the other Dallas based airline, American Airlines, I assume, is who it is we're talking about,

Rick Denton: 6:55

right? They try not to say their name out loud, but yes, but just to,

Sam Stern: 6:59

just to be specific, it they're, they're not quaking in their boots here, because Southwest is going to, you know, have assigned seats and not to check bags. I just don't see what purpose this serves, other than to remove what's differentiating about them. And, you know, you see a lot of people talking about it, generate a lot of bad press, and for days now, I think it's going to go on. I think this story is going to run for days, because there won't be an explanation. And without a close to the story, it remains open people trying to understand what has happened here.

Rick Denton: 7:32

I think I like that you said that, that there's not a close the story. I am going to bring us back to that at the end of this, there's something that's sitting in my head that you just triggered with me. I think a lot of us feel like we know what that story is, and in the absence of any direct information, we assume that it is the active investor and their horde of business analysts that have come in and said that you can make a billion dollars on extra revenue through this. And that might be true. And I know this is where then people look at CX ers and say, well, uh huh, oh, see, y'all just care about the fuzzies, but we care actually about making profit. I don't know how well they took into account what the backlash and the lack of differentiation will be. I, for me, I'm an A list preferred I get I get better seating, I get that sort of thing. In fact, I think in the new model, I'll even get at least one bag free, great, but my kids don't, yeah, my spouse doesn't, and my kids, who are one used to be in one still is away at college. There would be times that we actually chose a less convenient flight option with Southwest because we knew that she would get her bags free, and we knew that, at least in theory, that legacy southwest service approach would be offered to her. Now 100% I'm going to take a more convenient fight.

Sam Stern: 8:56

Yeah, and honestly, like, I think that's such a good example of where short term focus on that incremental revenue you get from the bag fee. You lose that differentiation that would get you college students who are flying away from home to college and where the two bags free means a lot to them and establishes them at a point where they're just starting to make, you know, purchasing decisions on their own, especially around something like who they fly with, that would cement loyalty that could last for 30 or 40 years. Yeah and yeah, growing that away right now. Oh, what

Rick Denton: 9:32

a great point like and I think we're weaving into, you know, how do we think of this from a customer experience perspective? You know, those of us that have been in that world for a while, but that's a great point. There's a reason why banks spend, or probably use college checking accounts as a loss leader, but they know that hooking in a college kid who for that might be their very first bank for credit cards, that may be their very first credit card, tends. To cement a loyalty. I am still with a legacy bank that I signed up for when I was in college, and it's not the best option for me, but you too, we're at Mercy. I'm not leaving them way too hard, way too sticky, no,

Sam Stern: 10:13

100% and now be easier to switch who you fly with. But I think the point still stands if create that value proposition that's appealing to you at that age when you're looking for your first airline that you would actually fly with, that can be persuasive long past the time when it's still every you know every $20 increment of savings to you is worth everything because you're you're pinching pennies to have enough money for late night ramen in college, right?

Rick Denton: 10:42

Well, I'm glad to hear that yours is focused on ramen. There were plenty of time that perhaps I used a different sort of nutrition that might have been a different, a lower grade level of nutrition when we're

Sam Stern: 10:54

both carbo loading, right? Yeah, it just happened to have hops instead of noodles. So Well,

Rick Denton: 11:01

let's talk about that. Let's talk about this, more deeper, from a customer experience perspective, that that lack of differentiation. I actually want to ask you this, and I'm asking myself this, but I'm asking you first, so I have time to think about it. I'm cheating. What about the people that would say to you and me, Look, guys, I get it, but this is what the US airline industry is. This is what customers are voting for. They're going that direction so they don't really care. You guys are going to be all tempest in a teapot, but come talk to me nine months from now. What do you say to those folks?

Sam Stern: 11:39

I hear that right, that they that you're seeing. So the trend since the pandemic really abated was everyone wanted to get back to being to traveling, and there was much more of this premium leisure market. And I'm no travel expert, so this is just me observing or reading about what was happening, that people were willing to pay for first class out of their own pockets, rather than only being a corporate traveler who would do that, which, when you're at Southwest and you probably aren't winning that much on the corporate business, could be an appealing target. The problem is, when you go into that space, instead of owning the low cost space that in the way that Southwest did, you're now competing against very well established brands that are your few peers, at least in terms of customer experience in the airline industry. So I'm talking about delta and Jet Blue, who are usually right up there with Southwest in terms of customer scores, and have better premium product than Southwest does. So how you're playing on their turf, rather than on your own turf. And I think Southwest is one of those great examples where you turn a niche into the whole thing, right? They started out as you were alluding to just flying within Texas, because that was a way to skirt the regulations on discounting, on prices, right? Then they expanded in this sort of like flying bus way, where they made all these stops along the country, but then they kept a lot of the things that allowed them to be low cost, the open boarding, that they could turn planes faster, the bags flying free, was something for people who were really on a budget, to fly with them and pick them, and they were the biggest domestic airline by people flown. So to say that they didn't have a market, I think really is, is not. It's just not true. And so to say, now you're abandoning what was the biggest niche in the market, at least in the US, for something else that is going to be certainly as fewer passengers and now maybe more revenue for each of them, and maybe there's more profit there. But not you have to win that market, because it's already hotly contested by several, I would say, pretty strong airline brands, the

Rick Denton: 13:47

the lack of exactly Sam and that legacy aspect of it, and it just had that sort of that culture, that view, that that's who I'm going to be. Now, Andrews asked a pretty good question in the chat. And I don't know what kind of visibility you've got in your end there, but the idea of maybe southwest said, hey, if somebody cares that much about 2530 $40 for a bag, we don't want them around. And, yeah, and what does that look like in that idea of maybe they have an opportunity for an elevated experience? I've got some views here, but I'm gonna cheat a little, and I'll ask you

Sam Stern: 14:23

so if someone, is that, if we don't want them, are they?

Rick Denton: 14:27

Are they firing the customer in the hopes that they can replace it with a new set of customers?

Sam Stern: 14:33

Yeah, I think there's definitely something to that, right? Because to to pair this with the first change they made recently was assigned seating, in terms of a big change the experience, right? And that, to me, is for people like me who want to pick their seat, who do not want that stress of boarding a Southwest flight, which for me is that it, I find it stressful even when I'm in the a group of knowing, not knowing, whether I'll get a good seat. Um. And now it could even be that I get a better seat than I would have gotten with a signed seat, but I know what seat I'm getting, at least in that instance, I think you're firing a set of customers who you built the largest domestic airline brand with for a set of customers who, yes, might be more profitable and less price sensitive, but who you don't know you can win. What is the value proposition? Again, I'll keep saying this, but what is the value proposition to a someone who is less price sensitive to fly southwest? I think of them as a budget brand. I think of them as having fewer perks on board in terms of the quality of the flying experience than delta or JetBlue, who are the dominant carriers in my market. So the ones I always reflexively fly with, they have a better product. So why would I switch to Southwest? What would get me to switch? I can't use what it would be.

Rick Denton: 15:45

You know, it's sticking in my head here. There's a story. And for those that are Dallas based, you're gonna know this story. You and many of us lived it, and it's very similar. It's when an activist investor came into JC Penney and completely gutted. No, I'll say it this way, chose to fire the JC Penney customer, and they were going to elevate JC Penney to a brand experience that was not just, and perhaps stories and buildings above what JC Penney's brand promise had been for. Well, actually, technically, over a century. Yeah, and in doing so, they did not know their customer well enough and fired her when they said, Hey, we're going to give you straight line pricing. We're getting rid of discounting. We're getting rid of that. We're being honest, we're being transparent. They're using all of these great words without understanding that that customer cared about the game, they wanted to feel like they got a deal. They knew it was a game. These aren't dummies, they knew. And so they fired the customer didn't have the cash able to then elevate the brand, and actually, here locally, they had to sell off a bunch of really high value property just to be able to make the business operate. And that, to me, is what I worry about Southwest is they think, hey, we can get rid of our herb killer, her styled customer who loves the fun, the spirit, the the energy of the Southwest culture and the perception of value, and let's be honest, Southwest flights aren't always the cheapest, but the perception that I'm getting a better value in the hopes that they're going to like an experience that's similar to what the other US carriers are, I don't think that's happening to me. What I think has happened is Southwest is in the race to the bottom of what US airline experiences. They've strapped on cinder block tennis shoes and are racing as quickly as to that bottom of the lake as they can.

Sam Stern: 17:45

Yeah, and honestly, what would, I think it's a great analogy to the JC Penney example, right? Because they tried to be, you know, they've even brought in Ron Johnson from Apple and tried to emulate Apple Stores. Well, I mean, what I think would take two decades for their brand perception to change, enough for that to happen. And as you said, they didn't have the cash on hand. They couldn't play that long game to let perceptions catch up with their new reality. It was never going to work. They couldn't play in that market the way they had played in the discount market. And I think the other thing that's striking to me about that example to to this one is, I think they misunderstood their customers in a way that is just inexcusable, if from a customer experience perspective, but like to just just think they were interested in low prices, rather than in that thrill of the hunt for the bargain. As you were alluding to you misunderstood what they care about. Yes, they want a low price. They want to think though that they they earned that low price by finding this great item on this great deal. And to me, there's something about Southwest where it's like you were alluding to this too. Is it? Is? It isn't actually the lowest cost airline, and it's not the airline with the fewest frills we have spirit, we have frontier, right? It is the airline, where they have just gotten the mix right of charging you for things you want to pay for and not charging you for things you don't want to pay for, and making it feel like you're getting a good deal in that value equation that's gone Yes, and

Rick Denton: 19:16

that feel is what I think is at the root of all this. And I think they are going to find that they misjudged the feel aspect of it. I think we're starting to see some, some signs of that. I want to see if I can pull this off. I'm thinking of this from a customer experience, right? You and I are talking about, perhaps the pricing, the service experience inside the plane itself, but the brand is part of the entire customer experience. Yes, I thought it was odd that I received this email today, and I'm going to see if I can talk and present at the same time. It is I'm getting all sorts of tips that are telling me what not to show this. Yeah. Southwest is inviting me. The day after that, they have told me that they don't give a fly and flip about me as a customer. They are inviting me to refer my friends to the southwest co branded credit card. Now, is this actually, technically Chase banks customer journey? Is it southwest? Who's driving this? But this, to me, is another example of how I'm worried about the overall understanding of the the Southwest customer experience when a promotion like this would be released the day after such incredibly negative news, there's no way. There aren't enough bonus points to get me to want to refer a friend to southwest right now, this

Sam Stern: 20:43

will be their worst performing credit card promotion. And I really hope, I really hope they don't wonder why it would be my only thing right, I could guarantee it will be their lowest performer. And they better think, okay, we kind of knew the timing of that was going to be. Make it hard. The other thing I'll tell you so you think about the larger brand perception and some perception and something like that, right where it's like, well, suddenly people who were loyal happy to recommend you. Love the points, but happy to recommend, hey, get a Southwest credit card. Get you get you get the perks. You know, you get to a list faster. Like this is worth it. It's a great airline. You want to fly with them. Now, wouldn't recommend that? I'll tell you. Another one that I always found so striking is when I was at Forrester. One of the things we did a lot of customer research, and we we saw that customers believed that Southwest and Jet Blue had the best on time performance of the air among the airlines, interesting and they don't. And what it was, a good will benefit to save you operational costs. You don't actually have to be as operationally efficient if customers like you and will give you the benefit of the doubt, Southwest is throwing away that kind of goodwill that earns them the benefit of the doubt, and so suddenly they will actually have to be better with on time performance, which requires more maintenance costs, requires potentially more backup airplanes when when one is down, things that they were saving money on because they had this goodwill, I would expect the reality of their not great, not horrible, but not great on time performance to come closer To matching the perception which was imbued with that customer goodwill that will no longer be there. That

Rick Denton: 22:25

is, I want to take what you just said there and go and kind of link it back to something that I mentioned or failed to mention when I was thinking about what I experienced as a customer. I'm going to go back to the open seating policy. I'm actually one of those customers that wanted the open seating policy, because with a legacy carrier, and yes, I understand it's kind of nice. I used to know that on the MD 80 an American back in the 90s, I wanted C 22 a, and I always wanted C 22 a, all right, so I get that part, but a lot of my flights are bought at the last minute, right? The ability to for me to reserve a seat actually doesn't help me, because there's only middle seats next to the lab available. The open seating policy allowed me, as an a list, preferred to at least be in the front of the line, and that so I was one of those that didn't. And the second thing that you mentioned, kind of operationally, about the bags part, I don't know that they have. It's very naive of me to say that, but now more people are going to be carrying bags onto the plane. Yes. Can you imagine how that's going to improve operational efficiency that you're describing? It's not and so the Southwest famous 25 minute turns of the past have been long gone. Now I don't know that they'll be able to pull off the hour turns as they their planes still have the older bins that don't store the same amount of bags like there's a lot of things that weren't coordinated here. And it leads me to go to the question that I want to kind of close us with here, and that is, let's try to think of this from the perspective of those who are making this decision. How can we get into their heads what was going on in their minds. When you put yourself in that boardroom, in that conference room that the decision is being made, what did that look like?

Sam Stern: 24:08

Yeah, no, and I think you hit on some of the factors throughout this conversation. If I was going to put myself in their minds, it was one we can calculate very specifically how much incremental revenue this will deliver to start charging for bags. And that money is money that we can potentially say goes directly back to the shareholders, some of whom are these activist shareholders right to their shares so they can see a return on that immediately. From there, from that standpoint, an activist investor is often not in it for the long term, and so they're there to turn whatever they purchased in at into a higher share price that they're willing to then sell at, so they can see that return on what they were planning to do, if they can have this operationally return revenue to the business. And you want the other part of it that you said that I think would be appealing if you were looking. This at a narrow way and not playing out the second and third order effects is there's this higher end leisure market that we don't necessarily get first crack at. We want more of their travel dollars. What do they care about? They care about assigned seating. They care about they often are going on weekend trips. They are traveling light. They don't care about checked bags. They care about some of the niceties the other airlines offer that we don't. Let's go after that customer and give them what they want. But to me, what you know you and I are talking here as a focus group of two. I am not a you know, preferent. I do not prefer southwest today, nothing they have done to change their experience makes me more likely to fly with them. You do prefer southwest, right? Everything they've done in the recent changes makes you less likely to want to fly with them in the future. What are you doing? Like, that's that's crazy, and

Rick Denton: 25:52

what are you doing? And I know it's dangerous for us to get in their heads. I think you're right. I think this is, this is solely a team of business analyst driven Excel sheet approach, which, if, for those listening that are of the financial mindset, they're going, Yeah, Rick, that's what business is. You're in the business to to to make profit. And I get that. I think what is not being taken into account is exactly that, that the loyalty, the lifetime spend all the phrases that we Bandy about, I feel like this is an incredibly short term look without understanding what the brand goodwill number in that assessment needs to be and what that calculation will do going forward, and I hadn't even thought about before. We're talking about the multi generational aspect of this. Now here's I could go off on another soapbox here. Well exactly, because the executive knows they're going to be there for less than five years, so they don't really care. They just hope that they get the pop in the share price and that time frame and all of that, it, it, it makes me feel that they spent too much time on folks focus groups that were brought into the building, whether that's virtual or not, as opposed to really understanding their customer. And I'd mentioned this to you earlier, it reminds me, Dallas has had its heart stabbed twice now by two major brands of this area, and for those who are tied into the NBA will know what I'm about to talk about, one of the best generational players in the NBA is Luca doncic, and he was the heart and soul of the Dallas Mavericks team. And Nico Harris decides and from all reports somewhat independently, without consulting people who might have said, Hey, you shouldn't do this. Trades him to Los Angeles for a bag of peanuts. Sorry, ad, but it's not the same as Luca and the Mavericks have been shocked by the backlash that has come, even to the point that they've made even further PR decision failures, where, when, if somebody was wearing a fire Nico t shirt in the stadium, they would actually kick them out of the stadium, going Gestapo style, trying to get people to just co toe the maverick line. Yeah. Well, I think southwest made a similar mistake here, and that is really under undervaluing, or perhaps just improperly understanding the emotional tie that travelers have to Southwest. I don't know that that same emotional tie exists with United, with American, with Delta. I think there's still loyalty. I don't know that there's that it's my airline that loyalists of Southwest feel. And I don't know that that would have shown up in a spreadsheet. And that, to me, is something different, that they that in the minds, they didn't understand. They didn't speak to the southwest loyalists. For all I know, there's all sorts of Southwest forums. Were they looking there? Were they really getting a sense of who the Southwest loyalist was, is, was, and make their decisions based off of that. I think they missed that. Yeah,

Sam Stern: 29:07

no. And I think it's hard not to draw those parallels right with two Dallas based institutions making what were almost immediately panned by universally panned decisions, and then they're trying to justify it and explain it, and it just makes it worse. Everyone's like, your explanation sounds like you really didn't know what you were doing. You really didn't do your due diligence. You really didn't understand what Luca meant to Dallas, what the Southwest brand means to Dallas, but to your passengers around the country, right? You just didn't understand. Yeah,

Rick Denton: 29:42

yeah, it, um, it will be interesting to see say, what's your what do you think six months from now, is this going to be we're going to look back in this and kind of chuckle at you and me being so upset about this, or maybe I'm more upset because of, you know, my passion towards the brand, and you just looking at it as a foolish. Decision, or is this just going to pass by?

Sam Stern: 30:02

Yeah, well, I don't think it will. Here would be my prediction. My prediction will be another airline brand will step in to be the bags fly free brand. That point of differentiation is now available to someone who wants to take it. I used to joke about the fact that not joke as much as sort of like cited as southwest with advertising about bags fly free was the sign that customer expectations do go down. Sometimes, we always used to get all of our bags could fly free like we never imagined, paying for that unless they were hugely oversized, until the airline started charging for them, and only then could southwest say, No, we're different, right? That was, that was a recent thing. And so I do think that is now available to another airline if they want it. I imagine someone will claim it. And I just don't see the string of decisions made by Southwest in the last six months to a year. And I also think like looming over all this too, is there really strong connection to what is not a great piece of hardware right now, the 737, wait for them that, to be fair to them, is not their own fault. You know, they it served them well for decades, until it didn't. I do think, I just think they're in a really, really difficult position now to get to get out of this, and I don't see them having the leadership in place that is making the right decisions even in this difficult context.

Rick Denton: 31:27

I want to take a counterpoint. I want to go opposite from you, but I can't, yeah, well, you know what I you know what I am going to take a slightly counterpoint to you, other than I agree with you conceptually, that I think you're going to see a brand fall off. I think you're going to see it's going to become just another bad us airline. I wonder about Southwest survivability as a separate airline entity. Now I realize that gets in all sorts of antitrust conversations. JetBlue and American tried to get together, and that didn't work. But in the sense of, if it were just an unfettered choice, I don't know that there'd be enough differentiation for someone to say, yeah, there, there, there needs to be a Southwest out there. There needs to be that kind of brand. And I don't know, and I could absolutely seeing it be absorbed into another carrier at some time. Wow.

Sam Stern: 32:22

I mean, that would be seismic, but it would, I mean, what it was really

Rick Denton: 32:25

easy for me to say, yeah, totally fascinating. Well, I do, I do like what I saw there in a comment, Yes, Andrew, I would love to wear a fire Elliot Investment Management t shirt. I thought you kicked off the plane. Probably, you might right, because they have that ability. I wonder if there's a this is my last Southwest flight t shirt or hat that you could wear, or something like that. But we'll see. I, like a lot of other folks, if I got the ticket, I do want to kind of finish the flight, so maybe I'll just have that in my undershirt.

Sam Stern: 33:01

Plane off, the word off the plane, like open, you know, open it up as you're walking off.

Rick Denton: 33:06

Well, in love field here in Dallas is 98% southwest, so I could wander around the terminal with it for sure. Sam, any other final thoughts? No,

Sam Stern: 33:14

I think we covered it. Yeah. Oh, I do have one final thought. I you know, Sparrow, spare a thought for the Southwest employees, yeah, you referenced it earlier. They're willing to join this company where they weren't necessarily paid market rate to start because of its brand and also because for a long time, one of the other things that made them stood out was they didn't do layoffs, which is another thing that they changed recently. I think to me, if I'm one of those wonderful flight attendants and pilots who we think are such create, are part of creating such a great culture. I think they have to be questioning where this brand is headed now, because it doesn't seem like it's, it's what they signed up for anymore. Yeah, I'm

Rick Denton: 33:52

glad you brought that in there. I'm really glad you brought that employee experience aspect into it, because that I just it that is that has been broken, and I did, just like the activist investors behind JCPenney, and now, as we see it in southwest, that part just it isn't a concern. And I don't think if they were listening to this right now, that they'd say they care, and that's the part that kind of hurts some of us that know that employee experience does actually matter when it comes to a brand. Sam, I'm glad that you were willing to pull off this experiment. I recognize now that there's been a little bit of a glitch that somehow, when we restreamed to LinkedIn, it pulled created a whole nother event, but that whole other event allows us to be able to use this in the future. But I do, I appreciate someone like you who has the wisdom, the intelligence, the experience to be able to say, yeah, in four hours, I'm going to talk about one of the hottest customer experience topics and talk about it in an intelligent way. Well, we'll

Sam Stern: 34:49

see how intelligent it is in six months. Rick, right, but, but it was, it's always a pleasure speaking with you behind the microphones, and thank you for suggesting this. Thought was a great idea, so I was happy to jump on with you. I.