Empowering Women In Conversations

Fixing What Isn’t Broken: People Pleasing, ADHD, Autism, and the Gift of Difference with Christine Molina, LCSW

• Anita Sandoval • Season 3 • Episode 26

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Fixing What Isn’t Broken: People Pleasing, ADHD, Autism, and the Gift of Difference with Christine Molina, LCSW

Have you ever felt like you’re broken because you struggle with people pleasing, ADHD, or Autism? In this powerful episode of Empowering Women in Conversations, Anita Sandoval, LPC-S, sits down with Christine Molina, LCSW, EMDRIA-Approved Consultant, trainer, and neurodiversity advocate, to challenge the medical model myths and reframe how we see our brains.

Christine shares:

  • 🔎 Why ADHD and Autism aren’t “disorders to fix” but unique wiring that holds incredible gifts.
  • 💡 How people pleasing often develops as a survival response — and how to unlearn it.
  • 🧠 Why understanding your brain is the first step to healing shame, trauma, and negative self-beliefs.
  • 💪 The strengths neurodivergent partners bring into relationships — and why every brain has value.

My takeaway from this conversation:
Neurodivergence is not a flaw — it’s a gift. It’s like speaking a different language or coming from a different culture. Once we stop trying to “translate” everyone into the same way of thinking, we can embrace the richness of those differences. Every brain brings its own wisdom, its own rhythm, and its own strengths. The real empowerment comes from seeing those differences not as barriers, but as bridges to understanding and connection.

This conversation will change the way you see yourself. You’re not broken—you’re becoming.

🌐 Connect with Christine Molina:

🌐 Connect with Anita Sandoval:

Website: www.anitasandoval.com

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Ready to stop people pleasing and step into your power? Join Anita’s free masterclass: 5 Days to Start Saying No

👉 Continue your journey: Watch the last episode — Running on Empty: How to Reclaim Your Energy and Stop People Pleasing

[00:00:00] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I'm so honored to welcome today's guest. Christine Molina, a licensed clinical social worker, EMDRIA approved consultant and EMDR certified therapist based in Austin, Texas. Christine is not only a. Deeply compassionate counselor, but also a skilled consultant and trainer whose work centers around EMDR therapy, neurodiversity attachment and trauma.

[00:00:27] And she facilitated neuro affirming trainings across the country in Autism, ADHD, and how we can shift the way we view the incredible range of ways our brains are wired to process. The world. And in addition to providing EMDR basic trainings, she also co-facilitates an advanced EMDR course that integrates polyvagal theory and ego state therapy for complex trauma and bringing cutting edge insights into healing and [00:01:00] nervous system regulation.

[00:01:01] And her therapy toolkit is wide ranging. Deeply integrative alongside EMDR. Christine incorporates A-E-D-P-I-F-S, ego State Therapy. Somatic Experiencing Clinical Hypnosis. do you say DARE or DARE? 

[00:01:20] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: I say DARE. It stands for, rewiring Attachment Systems. 

[00:01:24] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Awesome. DARE and DBT, all with the goal of helping her clients not to only heal, but also to thrive and love their brain.

[00:01:36] Christine, welcome to the show. I'm so grateful to have you here with us today. I'm so excited to have you to be here Anita and see you again. I know. Oh my gosh. I've been meaning to reach out to you because when I became first trained in EMDR, we have to go and practice with other therapists.

[00:01:57] And we had to use a memory [00:02:00] that was something small, nothing big and, and I remember going, okay, we'll do this one little memory. And I remember that when we tried doing it, the other person was telling me. What's your scale of how you feel? The distress? And I would tell her, and she's like, are you sure?

[00:02:18] Just with something like that. I got discombobulated from zero to to a hundred and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I can't work with her. 'cause I was feeling my body and I turned to you 'cause you were the one facilitating. And right away you grounded me by throwing tissue box back and forth. And then we settled the memory and it was so quick and I was like.

[00:02:40] Whoa, how did I go from zero to a hundred to calming and processing in an instant? And I never got it until I became certified as an ADHD provider. And then I said, whoa, there was nothing wrong with me because all these years I thought maybe that trauma was more than I thought. Is there something wrong with my brain?

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] Yeah, and these are common thoughts for Neurodivergents and that's why I wanted to bring you in because I wanted you to help our community. The neurodivergent ones that also are people pleasers, that there's nothing wrong with them. They're not broken. 

[00:03:15] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: No, they're not. They're very gifted. There's a lovely book that I really adore.

[00:03:21] It's called The Power of Different, the Link between Genius and Disorder. Okay. I think it's by Gail Saltz and I remember I was doing laundry one day and I heard her talking on some talk show and I'm like, there is someone else who looks at brains like I do, where it's really a gift. And she has this one phrase that I love is, our weaknesses are just the flip side of our strengths.

[00:03:46] There are so many gifts with neurodivergents. But what you're describing happens all the time, Anita, is when you don't know how your brain works, you feel broken. Sometimes people say, oh, I feel like there's a [00:04:00] million things wrong with me, because other people can do things that just seem elusive to me. Or sometimes I can do it and sometimes I can't, and I don't know when my abilities are gonna show up.

[00:04:12] So maybe you wait till the last minute to write a paper. Yes, you're trying to write an email at work and you can't get your brain to get the words out. learning about how your brain works is incredibly empowering and exciting. 'cause then you can play to your strengths. Oh, and you can not get tripped up by the things that are harder and your challenges.

[00:04:32] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. I love how you said that. And before we delve in into the main discussion, I would love for you to share a little bit about your background and what led you to specialize with working with neurodivergent individuals in trauma therapy. 

[00:04:48] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Some people pick a specialty and some people the specialty picks them.

[00:04:53] So I fall into the latter bucket. a lot of neurodivergent [00:05:00] folks, after they run, go through the pipeline of high school, college, you get into your twenties and you have this wide open field. And with lax structure, and it can be hard to figure out with all the structure and possibilities, how you can find your next step.

[00:05:18] we live today in a pretty mental health savvy society. Yeah, and I was blessed in my twenties. That was 20 years ago. But back then it was the same way people knew about therapy. And so I've always loved the phrase that successful people work on themselves. And so I started therapy and I started some career exploration and you know, like most neurodivergent folks, I had anxiety.

[00:05:42] and I was so lucky 'cause I had more of a less obvious. presentation of ADHD with accountability. Yeah. And did really well at projects and focus, but I would have the anxiety of not knowing why I can't, I can right now and not at this other time. And I was so [00:06:00] excited that I, when learning about ADHD from my therapist at the time, because I discovered I wasn't stupid when a little kid doesn't know how their brain works at.

[00:06:12] And how to, why can I do it then? And I don't do it and I can't do it now? the, what gets laid down is I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. Yeah. And also, and so for me to learn about my brain, it was so empowering. It helped me in the business world. And so when I became a therapist years later, going through a long, exploration process of what I wanted to do, I made that part of how I did therapy because.

[00:06:37] Neurodiversity is really common, much more common than people realize. And so when someone would come in with ADHD or Autism, I start teaching them in addition to working on all the other therapy stuff we need with emotion regulation, relationships, anxiety and depression. I mean, that's just so common in our society.

[00:06:56] I would also start helping them learn about their brain. So [00:07:00] they could have the same experience I did, realizing, oh my goodness, I can, I don't have to shut down, I can succeed. And they start to believe in themselves. It's life changing. 

[00:07:11] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Oh, that's beautiful. I love that you shared your story, because I want the audience to know that you're not alone, that even therapists or other successful people.

[00:07:22] Are neurodivergent and we can be successful. And it's very common to say, oh my gosh, what's wrong with me? I'm not good enough, which are common negative beliefs that we carry if we're people pleasers as well. you did mention the work with Neurodivergence, but also with trauma.

[00:07:40] I know they tend to overlap in certain ways and they often get missed, especially in women. What are your thoughts on , how they are missed? 

[00:07:54] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, so in women, they're missed because sometimes, they have a less standard [00:08:00] presentation. Okay. Than what we are stereotypes. in the eighties they had this idea that there was the hyperactive boy who can't sit still, and everyone thought that's ADHD.

[00:08:13] and then, we came about these diagnoses and brains from the medical model. And so, the medical model in physical health is, something's wrong with you. Let's fix it. Yeah. Right. And so with mental health coming about it, I mean there's some stuff like depression, anxiety, there are things that go away, but a brain setup like ADHD or Autism or some of these other brains, that are wired differently, that doesn't go away.

[00:08:39] That's how you're wired. It's part of who you are. Yes. Right. And it doesn't have to be a fix. Yeah, so I think some of our perceptions were skewed because of this, how this developed and how the mental health field developed. So then in the eighties and early nineties, there was a real reaction among therapists and clients to this medical model.[00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] And so Judy Singer, she founded the term neurodiversity, and that just meant, we had different ways of socializing, regulating emotions, how our brain works. And it also included not only the struggles, but the strengths. Oh. And so that was a a big thing because if you hear about your brain and all you hear is that it's a problem that you're sick and that there are these challenges that come with it.

[00:09:26] It's like you have a glass floor, you can't, it's like a death sentence to some people. So, and then in the nineties what happened is a lot of therapists and mental health professionals and psychiatrists discovered that either they had ADHD or their children had ADHD and Dr. Amen is a really well-known one.

[00:09:47] Discovered his daughter had ADHD. And before that, he thought different, when kids were acting out or struggling, it was the parent's fault for how they raised him. You know, trauma says it's how you were raised and [00:10:00] that's why you're struggling. And that was the kind of the going, thought then.

[00:10:03] But then he had a kid that was really easy to raise. And the second kid was completely different and the parents were the same. And so he realized, oh, it's not that. And he started doing research. He does brain scans, on the brain and he started realizing, no, this is kind of how the brain's wired is why she's struggling.

[00:10:22] And so he, he really focuses on helping neurodivergent folks, get what they need with their body physically, and then medication through brain scans. And then I think he does some coaching too. So there's lots of ways to work with it. And so he and a number of other people started putting out stuff about Hey, it's not just the struggles or strengths.

[00:10:42] when we go to therapy, we want help with our challenges because we're doing great with our strengths. Yeah. Yeah. They're easy to us. Yeah. We don't wanna, we don't want extra support with them. Yeah. But that, that leaves this false impression that if all you see is an ADHD or struggling in [00:11:00] therapy once a week or twice every other week, and you're gonna think that that's the only thing that goes with the brain.

[00:11:06] Yeah. But if you have it in your personal life. You realize how many things you can do well because of that brain, and that's not the whole story. So there's a lot of books that came out in the nineties called You're Not Sick, Lazy, and Crazy, and stuff like that about the gifts of ADHD. and unfortunately the Autism world is like 30 years behind or a couple decades behind.

[00:11:30] Yeah. And so we just in the last couple years started coming out with less obvious Autism. Okay. And what that looks like, because we've had all these stereotypes and myths. What there's like one way Autism presents when it's so multifaceted. Yes. So there's also a lot of autistic people, so as they're talking about their lived experience, it's, also becoming more , normalized in our population.

[00:11:52] Yeah. just like ADHD is now. Yeah. And so, a lot of us are working on that. I give trainings, I've given [00:12:00] trainings to the general public and to therapists to really normalize Autism. Yeah. Because I think that's really important. And, both ADHD and autistic brains are wonderful brains.

[00:12:11] Yeah, they tend to be, have a very high percentage of them who are very successful entrepreneurs, doctors, entertainment, corporate. There's a joke, there's an article I read on Forbes called Executive ADHD. Oh, wow. Because as you climb the corporate ladder. You know that the gift of ADHD of being a visionary is highly sought after, so you're gonna have more ADHDers, as you go up the corporate chain because the gifts of ADHD are really valued and highly sought after.

[00:12:41] And same with Autism in many, many professions. 

[00:12:44] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: When women go to the doctors, and let's say they're misdiagnosed with bipolar, or maybe they're, there's a hormonal imbalance, what would be like a best tip to give them to see? do [00:13:00] I have ADHD and, do I have Autism and ADHD or is it really bipolar or hormonal deficiency?

[00:13:07] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Well, what you can do on your own is screeners and self-education. Okay. that's not gonna give you the whole story. you just, for anything in therapy, you wanna rule out anything physical because hormones can really affect things, right? 

[00:13:21] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. 

[00:13:21] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: and you know, there's so, like you have low thyroid.

[00:13:25] That's gonna cause depression. So you wanna rule out anything physical. you wanna, get neuropsychological testing if you want something official, but there's a lot of screeners out there that are really helpful. Okay. My favorite is the DIVA is the 5.0 you pay for, but the DIVA 2.0 is free online. It goes through every category of ADHD criteria in the DSM, and they have a click box for the less obvious presentations.

[00:13:51] Wow. Like if you can't sustain a focus, if you just do that one criteria in the DSM, you might think, well, no, I focus fine. But [00:14:00] the clarifier for less obvious is, you have to try really hard and go really slow so you don't miss the detail. Oh, yes. And so I then I ask questions of how it would've presented in childhood, because you need to have it in childhood and adulthood for both ADHD, and Autism.

[00:14:16] For Autism, www.embraceautism.com Okay. has a bunch of wonderful screeners, for folks to see if they're autistic. And so if you have AUDHD, which is ADHD and Autism, then you'll qualify both for an ADHD diagnosis and an autistic diagnosis. 

[00:14:35] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Wow, that's so good for I love that you're giving all the websites because that way, I, I'm gonna write 'em down, put 'em in the show notes because it's good to be self-aware that the first step for any change is just awareness.

[00:14:47] And I love the internet because you can look for information just to become aware. I'm not saying to self-diagnose. 'cause you can't you have to go to the doctor and then they'll give you a formal diagnosis. 'cause that's what happened to [00:15:00] me. I'm like, oh yeah, I know I'm ADHD, but I never got a.

[00:15:03] Formal diagnosis until I went to the doctor. And you know, within age I've noticed that my symptoms presented even more. Mm-hmm. And I don't know if it has to do with my healing because I know I have PTSD in remission. And so once I healed from the trauma. I now notice the symptoms of ADHD little bit more and was able to discern, oh wait, but this isn't the trauma, this is, this is something else.

[00:15:32] What is that? And of course, when I get older in age, I was like, okay, something's going on. So we checked the hormones, everything was fine. And that's when I said, okay, I'm gonna have to go to a psychiatrist and see what's going on. And yeah. Lo and behold, she gave me my formal diagnosis with ADHD, and it's amazing.

[00:15:51] And medication may not be for you, but it, is for me, and it's like putting on rose colored. The glasses and going, oh my gosh, I can [00:16:00] see, crazy. It's just amazing what I missed out on all this stuff, these past years. But this is why we do what we do. and so another big thing for me, 'cause 

[00:16:11] my little niche that I like to do is people pleasing and appeasing as a survival skill. And I noticed that there's certain demographics that it appears more aside from women, but how do you see that showing up in your neurodivergent clients? 

[00:16:29] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, absolutely. So, I think that can show up a lot with neurodivergent clients.

[00:16:34] So when you grow up and you don't how your brain works, and maybe if you have ADHD with the executive functioning challenges, it's hard to do your homework or keep your room clean or the clutter. And then how do parents respond? They get mad. And instead of, because they might not know, instead of teaching you how to work with your brain and use strategies to get it done, they'll just yell at you.[00:17:00] 

[00:17:00] Or if they have undiagnosed ADHD and emotions go from zero to a hundred with some of their frustrations of parenting, that might come out like really loud and scary for a little kid. Yeah. And then a little kid who has a sensitive nervous system is gonna feel those emotions even more intensely. Right.

[00:17:18] So that they just might just shut down. Yeah. Yeah. And so, when you try to do things and you can't do it, , and people are always getting mad, of course you're gonna, people please 'cause that's a survival response. I just have to make them happy. . Or the message is, I can't do it. So you don't rely on your own sense of what to do.

[00:17:37] You actually just defer to others. 

[00:17:40] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Oh wow. That makes sense. That makes sense. You defer to others and , it's more of seeking their validation. 'cause , you don't know how to function. You wanna function and compare to a neurotypical and so you just, people pleasing go with the flow. someone like masking.

[00:17:57] Mm-hmm. Yeah. . I [00:18:00] remember I, I said the story to a friend of mine, 'cause I, was like, how do I know if I'm masking or people pleasing? And I was reflecting on that. And I remembered an incident when, when my friend was telling me a joke and, we work out together. And I laugh and she goes, no, no, no, no.

[00:18:20] And she told me the joke again and I'm telling you again, she said, because I know you tend to laugh just because, and I know you don't get it. So I'm telling you again so you can get it, and I had no idea I was masking. And then I said, okay, if I was people pleasing, I would've known and processed a joke, knew it wasn't funny, and I would've laughed.

[00:18:43] So I could belong, but if me jokes for me, it's just something that I just, it takes a while for me to process. I'm very literal. And so the fact that she told me again, and then I got it, she was patient with me to make sure I understood it [00:19:00] and what it meant. See, that was masking. That's how I saw the difference and it's just amazing.

[00:19:08] You know how people pleasing and masking can tend to overlap as well? 

[00:19:13] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: They do. They do. Yeah. It doesn't even matter. Figuring out the difference, the journey is learning to figure out what you need. Hmm. And to trust yourself. Both of those things are outside of you. Masking or people pleasing. And so that's part of the journey as a neurodivergent person to figure out what you need.

[00:19:34] So for example, when sometimes when neurodivergent peoples go to restaurants, you know, nowadays the dinner is very loud 'cause they want you in and out. Right. But if you have sensitive sensory sensitivities, it can be really hard to follow a group conversation in the flow with all that, noise.

[00:19:51] And so unmasking would be realizing, oh, I don't like that. Mm-hmm. Let me eat outside with you so I can focus. Okay. [00:20:00] Yeah. I love that. You know, people pleasing would be, I'm going to eat inside 'cause I want everyone else to be happy. But I'm asking that something you don't even realize because it's been the way things should be done your whole life.

[00:20:13] You're just trying to function how you think it people should function. Yeah. And you don't realize that you need to do it differently. 

[00:20:20] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. I love how you said that. I've had some patients that are ADHD, they know their ADHD. But then let's say they're entering a relationship and they go, well, I'm neurodivergent and this thing bothers me that you do so you need to not do it.

[00:20:37] And I'm just like, okay, you are the one with the ADHD, not them. And telling them to. To be in control of your ADHD symptoms is, is different than having accountability if they want, giving them the choice. what are your thoughts on when somebody has ADHD and they [00:21:00] want the environment to accommodate to them?

[00:21:03] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, well. So I think that's a great conversation. So I don't have this graphic on me, but I, created a training on EMDR and Autism okay. 'cause historically you need a lot of adaptions for EMDR with autistic folks, more so than ADHD. Okay. Um, and, but I think this applies to both ADHD and autism and any kind of neurodivergent brain is, we can go to one extreme.

[00:21:27] We don't want to lose who we are in a relationship. So those who tend to go to people pleasing tend to ignore their own needs. Okay. And because of the interception issues like sensing into your body, sometimes they don't even realize . 'cause you can't connect with your emotions. Okay. So that's part of the journey in therapy.

[00:21:44] Yeah. Right. So uncovering your own needs and preferences and bringing them into relationship and communicating them, um, is part of it. But there's, and there's also. The part of taking self responsibility because we impact each other [00:22:00] as people. Yes. Yes. And my neurodivergence is gonna impact you and just people in general.

[00:22:05] That's why big corporate businesses, they give these tests on how your brain works, how you manage conflict and projects so people can work together. Okay. And I think that applies to the whole society, no matter what kind of brain you have. Yeah. And so some people Donna Henderson, she talks about how autistic folks tend to manage conflict.

[00:22:24] Of course, everyone's an individual, but these are different categories. It's either my way or the highway. Yeah, because it's flexibility is, flexibility is hard. Yeah. Or go along to get along, which is your people pleasing? Oh. Or just exit the relationship because conflict's hard. Yes. It rely relies on a lot of different skills.

[00:22:42] there's this piece of uncovering your own needs and preferences and learning to bring it into the relationship. There's this self accountability piece that when you impact someone else, you know, the part that falls on your side. to take responsibility. So if your emotions go to zero in a hundred, it doesn't mean you can [00:23:00] go scream at someone.

[00:23:01] Yeah. If I wanna calm yourself down first and then figure out the words and have a discussion. Yeah. 'cause it's abusive to have that as your conflict resolution style is just to scream at someone. Yeah. Then if you shut down as your conflict resolution style, you know you're gonna be learning to take care of yourself.

[00:23:19] And figure out what your needs are and bring 'em into the relationship. And then there's also your strengths. Every brain has strengths. The reason Neurodivergent folks are wonderful partners is they're compassionate. They tend to be very honest. They tend to be very hardworking. They tend to be very loyal.

[00:23:36] I mean, these are qualities you want in partners. So you can't just look at the struggles and just blame the neurodivergent brain. Yeah. Every brain has strengths and weaknesses in relationship. We're all trying to work together. And then there's this accommodation piece. We accommodate each other. Yeah.

[00:23:53] Yeah. Right. And, , it's kind of this give and take. So relational conflict is something everyone works on in [00:24:00] therapy, no matter what kind of brain you have, it's one of the hardest things Yeah. That humans can deal with. 

[00:24:06] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. Yes, definitely. And it's finding the balance to not be codependent with one another, but just to work with one another to be the best versions of ourselves and keeping each other accountable

[00:24:18] oh my gosh. It's, it's quite a balance and it's hard. Yes. It's for everyone. So hard, and I don't know for other neurodivergents but I know for me, I take on a lot of this. Silent labor, which is the administrative tasks. Now I'm realizing that, so now I'm like, Hmm, I'm not taking that. And so I'm, giving it off to my husband and trying to, to be able to work with each other when it comes to these.

[00:24:47] , something new that you're doing with your partner, it's gonna take time. There's gonna be some, misses but before. Pretty, it's gonna be messy,

[00:24:56] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: that phrase, successful people work on themself in [00:25:00] relationships at work. You know it, anything worthwhile requires some work.

[00:25:05] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. Yes, yes. practice makes progress. That's what I say, so I love it. Yeah. I had mentioned to . Dr. Christie Sprowls and, I had told her, something about EMDR and ADHD and she mentioned that the protocol, that there was some, issues with progress with EMDR and the neurodivergents.

[00:25:28] I wanted to explore that a little bit more since you do EMDR with Autism and neurodivergents. What was the obstacle when it comes to EMDR and your neurodivergent people? 

[00:25:42] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Well, I think what happens with these trauma therapies they're set up to resolve, like stuff that gets locked in the brain.

[00:25:51] That doesn't resolve naturally. So we have these negative beliefs and negative emotions and they get triggered in the present and they're highly charged. Right? But with [00:26:00] neurodivergent folks, that's not the whole story of why they're struggling. And so if we only do a trauma therapy working with trauma, you're going to cause a lot of shame for neurodivergent folks.

[00:26:10] So they're gonna think all their struggle struggles are due to trauma. So with what I have found with, Autistic folks and ADHD'ers, you need to also before you know, as you're doing trauma treatment, when you're starting with the challenges in daily life, when we start with the present with more complex, presentations and you have to also help them understand their brain.

[00:26:31] Yeah. Because the shame is never going to lift. The anxiety is never gonna lift, and that depression's never gonna lift if you can't figure out how your brain works. And that negative belief I'm broken is never gonna shift. If in the present you still can't figure out how to work with your brain and not shut down.

[00:26:50] Yeah. And how to normalize it and how to communicate. You need to make progress with these things. Yeah. And then another area that you need to pull out for ADHD and Autism [00:27:00] is that emotion regulation piece. So we all read the, the term highly sensitive people. Yeah. Right and that's with, with the neurodivergent folks, you have a more sensitive nervous system.

[00:27:11] And, that's true for ADHD and even more so for autism. I forget who told me this, but one person gave me a statistic people taking 30 to 50% more information through their senses. And so, you know, sometimes they have a theory called intense world theory, like this supercharged brain that's highly perceptive.

[00:27:29] It can be like an assault on your senses. Mm-hmm. and so you need to help the brain. Learn to regulate. 'cause emotions are like hit or miss sometimes you can access them, sometimes you can't. They go from zero to a hundred really fast. and so to work with emotion regulation in the beginning is really important too.

[00:27:48] Not only because of trauma, which can affect emotion regulation, but also because of how the brain's wired. And so doing EMDR, one of the theories of why it works is called interhemispheric, [00:28:00] communication. It helps the different areas of the brain communicate. So with emotion regulation, that's huge. You need the frontal lobe and the limbic system to communicate a little bit.

[00:28:08] Yeah. So the bilateral stimulation, which is a, a key component in the EMDR is just using a stimulus, a sensory stimulus to process . with the trauma work, it can, it can, kind of have the brain connect with emotions a little deeper. Yeah. So you need to add those pieces in in addition to working with those negative self-belief that get laid down in the nervous system.

[00:28:31] And so when you just do EMDR focusing on trauma, but you're leaving out these brain pieces, yeah, it doesn't work. And another thing that happens with Autistic folks, so both a ADHDers and Autistic folks might have, challenges in relationships. As well as strengths. We talked about some of the strengths, right?

[00:28:49] So some of the challenges for ADHD'ers is, is they have a really intuitive understanding of the social world, and they tend to be very great leaders. but sometimes when their [00:29:00] attention shuts down for a second or their mind wanders somewhere else, they miss something. Yeah. And then they're like, why is everyone mad?

[00:29:07] So they lose attention and they check in, but they understand how it works. So with an Autistic brain, what I have found, and I haven't really seen this published, but I found it to be true in my practice, is they have a real intuitive sense of how things work in efficiency. Okay. I think that's the real gift they give to our society.

[00:29:24] There are so many people who have, the reason we have things that were invented or important is because of this gift. And for some, for, autistic folks, it's not all the social world. You know, they're very concrete thinkers. They process social information differently. Yeah. So that has to be part of the work you do.

[00:29:44] You know, oh, I forget his, his last name, but, Milton, let me see if I can even find it. Milton, 

[00:29:52] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: that sounds so familiar. Oh, Dr. 

[00:29:53] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Milton. Dr. Damian Milton. Right. So he came up with the double empathy theory. 

[00:29:58] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Okay. 

[00:29:58] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: And what it is, it's like you [00:30:00] have two cultures. When you have two cultures get together, sometimes there's a culture clash.

[00:30:04] Mm-hmm. And it's not that one culture is wrong and another culture, they're just different. Yeah. There's a really great example, by Catherine Crompton, she did a little, experiment. She had, I don't know if you ever played the telephone game. Yes. Where one person at one end, he says a sentence and they pass it down through these different people and at the end they have the last person say what the sentence was and is completely different.

[00:30:26] , they had three groups. One group was with all autistic people. One group was all non-autistic people. and one group was a mixed group, and what they found is that the non-autistic group did about the same as the autistic group in the telephone game about like the amount of, at times the information changed, but where they really struggled with a totally different answer was in the mixed group.

[00:30:52] Wow. So a lot of the communication stuff, when your brain processes social information differently, like for the autistic brains, they're more [00:31:00] thinking through interactions. whereas, in our ADHD brain, , they're just doing it intuitively, they're not even thinking about it. So a lot of conflict or misunderstandings happens by just, you know, storing and processing information differently.

[00:31:12] So you have to make space for that. Yeah, because you can imagine what happens as the autistic folks are in the minority. And so the messages they get are real negative when they're not doing anything wrong, different preferences. And so that has to also be part of, because the conflict is not always going to be about what got laid down in the past.

[00:31:32] Certainly that affects our default and the messages we receive, but part of it is learning to work with your brain and understand other brains who work differently. And so, the protocol I developed for EMDR and Autism pulls out those pieces and I'm teaching therapists, How to recognize what's happening in the brain.

[00:31:49] Wow. and then also with, if you take in 30 to 50% more information, right, it's not gonna generalize as well. When you process the past, you just have more detail. Yeah, which is the [00:32:00] gift of the Autistic brain. But with trauma processing, it means it's gonna take longer. And then I have some ways to help with the, generalization with EMDR.

[00:32:08] So I give a whole 14 a hour training on EMDR and Autism to therapists, because I feel like if I can train more therapists to do it, I'm one person. And we can, normalize it for others. and more clients are gonna get relief and get the help they need. And also I wanna change perceptions.

[00:32:26] Mm-hmm. So, because it's just recently in the last couple years that more autistic folks are coming out with their experience. It's not as normalized yet as ADHD. Yeah. Yeah. So there's some stigma there that shouldn't even be there. Yeah. And so in this EMDR training I give is for, I call it Subtle Autism, although it doesn't feel subtle, but it's against the stereotypes, it's less obvious.

[00:32:48] So in my training, I have a lot of therapists self-identify. They feel like they can understand their family and friends better. So they say it's been personally healing. Yes. Healing for their clients, yes. so I've [00:33:00] gotten a lot of feedback. I think it's so important to understand brain differences. 

[00:33:05] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Oh, I love it.

[00:33:06] I know I'm waiting for your next workshop so I could attend. I've, I've been, it'll be in the 

[00:33:10] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: summer. We have finally set up. Oh, yay. 

[00:33:12] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep bothering you until I can be able to get onto that one, because here in South Texas, in the RGV, I know that we have more predisposed, children, adults with, with neurodivergence.

[00:33:27] I know there was some theory from another doctor that had told me, and this is just theory, that whenever. People have trauma, are displaced in generations. There's an overlap also with ADHD, but also when people from another country, let's say Mexico, and they come over here to another country, I mean, that's a characteristic of ADHD.

[00:33:48] 'cause you have to be impulsive to be able to just drop everything that you know within your culture and go to another one. And so here in South Texas, I know that this used to be Mexico, not even what, 150 years ago. [00:34:00] And so there was a lot of families that went back and forth. And so it just makes sense that generations after and we're stuck in this border town with Mexican American culture where they're like, oh, ADHD that doesn't exist.

[00:34:18] And. So that's why as well for me, I try to, be able to communicate what ADHD also is. And, oh, everybody has ADHD. No, not everybody, but it just so happens that the population in a certain demographic in a certain place may have more than others, and that's okay. So, yeah. And. I wanna talk about IFS too, 'cause I know we have EMDR.

[00:34:43] Okay. But I wanna talk about IFS. Can you, can you explain how IFS and for me, I've noticed it's been amazing for the neurodivergent population and, and my theory is because we see so many things and we absorb so many things and [00:35:00] we love to just categorize everything and see everything in details. IFS is just like a godsend.

[00:35:07] Put them where we want to and we have more control. But what 

[00:35:10] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: are your thoughts? Oh, I love it. well, I think for all brains, IFS is life changing. Yeah. And so in the EMDR world, when you're working with, not simple, PTSD, simple, PTSD is a single incident, complex PTSD where it got laid down over a lifetime or developmental PTSD. 

[00:35:28] Right. You know, IFS is a way to work with the protective system. Okay. And so with that, so in the EMDR world, a lot of, for, for trauma, a lot of, people combined EMDR with some kind of parts work, whether it's ego state or IFS because it's very, very helpful. So it's very, very helpful for everyone. And then for neurodivergent folks, like you said, you like the categories.

[00:35:54] So you know, ADHD and autism have some differences. I think it's helpful for both of them because [00:36:00] when you grow up not understanding how your brain works, it can be feel like a very unsafe space. Yeah. And we have to have a protective system to protect us. And so that's gonna be a part of the work of identifying that.

[00:36:14] Yeah. And then for the autistic brain. Or the AUDHD, the ADHD Autism that has a lot more detail. You know, I think that works with this detail oriented processing style. Mm. So what happens with Autism they default to the details first, which actually some people say sometimes you get a more accurate perception of what's going on because they don't always, kind of draw meaning first they go to the details.

[00:36:40] Right. And they might store things more discreetly, like from one context to the next. They might not put 'em in the same category, they might say No, that's really different. Yeah. so then IFS where you have these different categories, it's a way to get an overview and work with them together. Oh, I love it.

[00:36:57] So it's really, really helpful. [00:37:00] And then the thing with parts work, whether it's IFS or ego state therapy, it give, it gets into the implicit memory system. So, EMDR, it works with explicit memory, concrete memories that you remember. Where IFS, it kind of rolls up. The different neuronal bundles in our brain according to how they're functioning.

[00:37:22] combining it with EMDR can be very powerful and have a higher generalization effect for all brains. Wow. 

[00:37:29] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I love that. It's like you're touching base on how their brain works and they're making those meanings in their own way with how they process in their own manner. 

[00:37:38] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Yeah. 

[00:37:39] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. I love that.

[00:37:41] And polyvagal, it's new to me. I recently became certified, but you mentioned that, and I really want the population to know about polyvagal. 'cause it's huge. I've noticed big differences with polyvagal strategies. Can you talk about how we incorporate that? 

[00:37:56] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: I think that's really huge for neurodivergent folks [00:38:00] because we tend to not connect as easily with our body.

[00:38:03] You know, alexithymia with Neurodivergent folks, up to 65% of folks have alexithymia and that says it's hard to contact check in your body. So polyvagal theory is huge 'cause it starts to teach you to self monitor and take care of your nervous system. Yeah, that's an area if you're used to masking, if it's harder to self-reflect and self monitor, which is one of the executive function challenges for neurodiverse brains, we need to practice that.

[00:38:31] Yeah. And start integrating it. We kind of tend to run outta steam because we have like an on off switch. We're either off or we're on. so polyvagal theory is great 'cause it helps us track the nervous system. When am I in like shutdown or feeling hopeless or depressed? And what can I do to regulate and get out of that state?

[00:38:53] Wow. And then when am I feeling like scared or panicky or, you know, [00:39:00] rage, when we need to protect ourself, we can learn to, what to do with that state. Wow. Sometimes what we do with the state is we kind of work out, maybe we speak up, so that can process. Sometimes the danger's not really there.

[00:39:15] It's like, you know, you think there's your, your nervous system learned to protect yourself from a tiger, and in this situation there's no tiger. So, you know, when learning what to do and how to regulate and how to get back to a state of connection and calm with yourself and others. Wow, it's so healing.

[00:39:31] Because healing can't only happen in therapy. We need things we can also do outside of therapy to amplify the work. So we have choices and control. Yeah. And so, and then you also learn that what state you're in, it's not about you. Like if you're in that, dorsal shutdown state, then you might, you might have beliefs about, it's hopeless.

[00:39:53] Yeah, I can't handle it. Right. Yeah. And that's not really about it being hopeless and you can't handle it. It's about being in that dorsal [00:40:00] shutdown state. Mm-hmm. So it can be so empowering, oh, I just need to regulate and take a break and use my skills so that I can get in a different state where I have resources and I can handle it.

[00:40:11] Because we all have, ability to handle it. It's just finding our way back there. Wow. 

[00:40:16] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: What's a quick polyvagal strategy? 'cause I don't want them to think it's like, oh, breathing in and out. But polyvagal has a different body, mind strategy. What's a quick one? So they could know the difference.

[00:40:30] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: well breathing can help. Mm-hmm. sometimes if you, you're really activated and panicky, well, nothing's gonna, like, that's in the fight flight zone. Nothing's gonna calm you down like some breath. Okay. Now for some neurodivergent folks, maybe if you're not connected to the body, it can feel like, it doesn't, not as helpful.

[00:40:46] Yeah. Maybe later on in therapy. Would that be helpful? you know, if you're, in the red and shutdown, you wanna get active. Okay? Okay. Because, when you're in dorsal shutdown, your whole body's slowing down, so you wanna do the opposite of that. Got 

[00:40:59] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: it. [00:41:00] So depending what state you're in. Mm-hmm. because if they're in the red, they wanna do breathing and there's no way that's gonna work.

[00:41:06] 'cause you actually have to do more, active. Yes. 

[00:41:09] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Okay. Okay. I love that. And social engagement helps with all of the. States. That's like the, the bottom, ventral, vagal system. Yeah. Or, it's helping to regulate. That's what helps get us through things. If we can have support in it, red or yellow, or dorsal vagal, or the dorsal shutdown or the fight flight, it can get a lot better when we can talk through it with someone or take a break, build up positives in our life and things we like.

[00:41:37] Yeah. So learning to read and work with your nervous system's 

[00:41:40] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: huge. Yes. I know that there are new, there is a new term for neurodivergent people for the ADHD when, recently, I'm talking months ago, maybe like six to nine months, heard about . Rejection sensitive dysphoria.

[00:41:55] Mm-hmm. RSD and how it impacts self-worth and relationships. What are [00:42:00] your thoughts on RSD with neurodivergence? 

[00:42:03] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: That, I think William Dawson coined that term. Yes. I'm not sure when. 

[00:42:07] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I have it here 'cause I spoke about it, but it was in 2000. It's recent.

[00:42:11] But yes, Dawson did come up with it. 

[00:42:13] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: So, so what he says with it is that people who have ADHD or Neurodiverse Divergent they have, they're more sensitive to criticism and teasing. They just have a more sense of they can't, their body doesn't handle it as well and they tend to shut down and spiral and get anxious and overwhelmed more easily than other brains.

[00:42:34] and so, knowing how the brain works with trauma. you have to take in past history with the sensitive nervous system. And so I think it's really a combination of things. it is having a more sensitive nervous system. you feel things more intensely with ADHD, there's more, and autism, there's a lot of bottom up processing, okay?

[00:42:56] And so they're gonna feel the energy of that negativity and [00:43:00] it's gonna hit their system harder. Okay. And then if you've also, like we talked about, got all these negative messages that how your brain's wired biologically to work is wrong. You're gonna have encoded a lot of anxiety and shame when people are upset.

[00:43:15] And that what got locked in the brain and never resolved is gonna get triggered in the present. So it's gonna be an intensity of whatever the default was To get mad and explode, or often for folks is to shut down and do a shame spiral. And so, part of it is learning about your brain and learning to work with your sensitivity.

[00:43:33] So you have some grace, but there's a huge part with healing and trauma therapies where you can actually rewire the shutdown response and the shame spiral and it takes time. I have one AUDHD client. I've been working with her for a long time and we've been working on when she was criticized and people got upset and she was so excited a few weeks ago in therapy, she's like, Christine, this thing happened and I was dysregulated and didn't know what to do and I was gonna go in [00:44:00] my shame spiral for for days.

[00:44:02] And she's like, and I took a break. I went to the bathroom and washed my face and then I was able to talk about it with my partner and I didn't go into that shame spiral. So this has taken a lot of work for us to re rework some of those memories to kind of, undo the default of shutdown. Yeah. To do something else.

[00:44:19] it's helpful. 

[00:44:21] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And yeah, he, he coined it and started in the early two thousands and started growing attention soon after. So it's super recent. it's not even in the DSM, but it's really recognized with the emotional regulation. And I can see how you mentioned we absorb a lot of things and ADHD, neurodivergence and anxiety and or depression.

[00:44:44] Kind of go hand in hand because of the prefrontal cortex and disinhibition with it. And so HSP people, highly sensitive people would also have the RSD and just seeing, okay, This is for me, I've. That [00:45:00] given to me all the time. Like, oh my gosh, you're so sensitive, we can't tell you anything.

[00:45:04] And growing up as a little kid, I was like, oh my gosh, there's something wrong with me. 'cause I'm crying. And tears would just come out. And I hated that tears would come out and, and now I, I don't mind it. You know what, this is my body. This is how it is. Right. Sometimes there's, they're happy tears, sometimes they're not.

[00:45:20] And, and I'm not sensitive. I'm neurodivergent. And that's okay. I take in that's, yeah. And so it's just recognizing how you said and doing the strategies to make sure that it doesn't overwhelm you, so, yeah. Yes. I love how you blend all of these approaches. What are some things though, that you've learned that don't work in therapy with this type of population?

[00:45:45] And, how have you adapted? 

[00:45:47] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Not addressing, not addressing the brain functioning? That anxiety and depression, it's never, ever, ever gonna shift if you just try to work on the memory networks where those negative messages got [00:46:00] down, but the client never learns to work with their brain. Yeah, well then you're always gonna feel like you're inadequate because you don't understand how to work with your brain and how to get yourself to succeed.

[00:46:11] it just seems like a hit or miss thing, it seems. so people, what gets laid down a lot is I'm a fraud. Yeah. 'cause they don't know how they're doing it. They don't have that understanding. So I think, you know, you do use trauma. Treatments are life changing for everyone and they're essential for neurodivergent folks.

[00:46:29] But without incorporating how your brain works, it's gonna fail. And then people can get frustrated 'cause they're doing the trauma work and things aren't shifting. 

[00:46:37] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. Yes. Yes. And then they'll, then they'll think, oh my gosh, I'm broken because here we're doing the work. Yes. Must be my fault. Yes. There's something wrong with me.

[00:46:46] I'm broken. Oh my gosh. Yes. And this whole imposter syndrome makes so much sense with when Neurodivergents. If you don't know how your brain's working, you don't know how your processing and doing these things, of course you're gonna think, [00:47:00] oh, it wasn't me. It was a fluke. 

[00:47:01] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Yeah. A lot of very successful people feel like an imposter because, not because, 

[00:47:06] They are doing anything wrong, it's because they don't understand. How it works. So they feel like, oh my goodness, it's not, I'm not advancing and succeeding because of my abilities. It's random. When it's not random, they're doing wonderful work. But when you understand what's happening, you have choices as opposing to this random thing.

[00:47:26] Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work. Yeah. 

[00:47:29] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. I love that. You know? What would you want to tell the women who feel too much or are believe that they're broken to know about themselves? 

[00:47:38] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, that they have a wonderful brain. Yeah. You know, I really, most of my clients, I always talk about the gift of our brains.

[00:47:46] Yeah. and so I think, that there's so much to learn. I mean, nobody's broken. Yeah. But it's so important to learn about how your brain. And the gifts of your brain. I've never worked with anyone [00:48:00] who doesn't have amazing talents, but sometimes if you're neurodivergent, 'cause we have trouble self-assessing and self-monitoring, it's hard to see what they are.

[00:48:10] And that can be such a wonderful discovery in therapy, not only to mitigate the challenges, but to enter into your strengths. Yeah, and they absolutely have them. Oh, and a wonderful way even to begin, there's so many books out there and podcasts to even start. I mean, I'm always a fan of therapy as you are Anita.

[00:48:31] 'cause we're therapists. Yeah. And we know how life changing it can be. Yeah. But people have all different, things they're juggling. So if they can't get into therapy, then maybe they can read a book. There's so many wonderful books out there or that are so normalizing or listen to a podcast like this or some of the other ones out there.

[00:48:49] The more you learn about the brain, it takes away the broken messages. Yeah. 'cause I think so many amazing, things are happening because of [00:49:00] Neurodivergence. Wow. 

[00:49:01] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Christine, this conversation has been so powerful and before we wrap up, I'd love for you to share with our listeners where they can find you, where they can connect with your work or learn more about your services and trainings. 

[00:49:12] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, perfect. So, I am in Austin, Texas, but my practice is entirely online after COVID.

[00:49:21] Oh. I found out that, only how three people wanted to come back in person. Everyone else wanted to stay online 'cause it's so convenient and practical. And the results of therapy are actually the same as in person. So I decided just for three people it made more sense to just be, have an online practice.

[00:49:36] So, I can see people in Texas for individual therapy 'cause that's where I'm licensed for, for a consultation for therapists who wanna learn about EMDR healing or neurodivergence. I have people that who come see me from all over the country. And my website is Christine Molina counseling.com. and I can't think of anything else.

[00:49:57] LinkedIn. I know you're on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn as [00:50:00] well, Christine Molina, but I really recommend my website if you wanna find out more information. I have some free resources for clients. on the resources tab, I have some resources for therapists on EMDR, on, therapist tab. and then I think I also have a link to my EMDR and autism training on there as well.

[00:50:17] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I missed where, was that because I was enjoying our conversation. I've enjoyed you so much, Anita. Get it. I know. Got it about it. So Christine, I always like to close each episode with two reflective power questions that speak to the heart of what this podcast is about, legacy, empowerment, and healing across generations.

[00:50:39] And these are questions I ask every guest and they often reveals. So much truths. So, take a moment to answer from the heart. Christine, what is your definition of an empowered woman? 

[00:50:54] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, I think an empowered woman is one who knows [00:51:00] themself, right both their strengths and weaknesses because we're all in the same boat and get, it has, has support.

[00:51:08] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Can know where to find support, can, you know, kind of make some space for what they're needing and their goals and figure out how to get there. yeah. 

[00:51:19] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: That's beautiful. 

[00:51:20] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I love that. And the second question. Imagine that everything about your work, your story, who you are, was somehow lost over time, completely erased from memory due to unforeseen events and generations later, three generations down the line in the future, a single handwritten letter of yours is found by your great, great granddaughter.

[00:51:46] What truth would you want to pass on to her? Something that would inspire her and help further empower more women in within the generation? 

[00:51:58] Christina Molina LCSW EMDR Certified/Consultant/Trainer: Oh, I wanna say believe in [00:52:00] yourself. I really believe we all have gifts within. Yeah. And as we learn to, tap into that inner strength and understand our wisdom, we will get led to what we need.

[00:52:12] Oh, and so, when we can believe in ourself, find people who can believe it, we surround us with those who believe in us. There is a well of strength within each person. 

[00:52:23] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your warmth, your heart with us today.

[00:52:31] You're doing so much important work, and I know our listeners are walking away feeling more seen and supported because of you, and to everyone listening, you're not broken. You may be carrying pain, masking your needs or living in survival mode. You're also capable and worthy and wired for healing. And if this episode resonated, please share with a friend, a loved one, and you can find all the links to Christine's work and her work in the show notes.

[00:52:57] And don't forget to subscribe. Until next [00:53:00] time, I'm Anita Sandoval stay grounded, stay compassionate, and remember, you're not broken. You are becoming 

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