Empowering Women In Conversations

Stop Calling It Love: The 7 Toxic Traps That Keep Women Stuck

• Anita Sandoval • Season 3 • Episode 34

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🎙️ Stop Calling It Love: The 7 Toxic Traps That Keep Women Stuck

How to Know When to Mend a Relationship — or Walk Away

Guest: Kate King, MA, LPC, ATR-BC
Licensed Professional Counselor | Board-Certified Art Therapist
Founder of The Radiant Life Project

🌿 Episode Overview

In this powerful episode of Empowering Women in Conversations, Anita Sandoval sits down with therapist and author Kate King to explore why so many women stay in unhealthy relationships — and how to know when it’s time to mend or move on.

Kate breaks down the 7 Toxic Traps that keep women stuck, including people-pleasing, trauma bonding, codependency, and emotional avoidance. Together, they explore how to recognize misalignment vs. toxicity, why “being nice” isn’t the same as being healthy, and how to reclaim your voice and autonomy.

This episode is especially meaningful for women who feel exhausted, emotionally overextended, or unsure why they keep repeating the same relationship patterns.

📘 Featured Book

Mend or Move On: A Guide to Healing or Leaving Toxic Relationships
By Kate King, MA, LPC, ATR-BC

👉 Order here:
🔗 Mend or Move On: A Guide to Healing or Leaving Toxic Relationships

(Affiliate link — thank you for supporting the show.)

🌐 Connect with Kate King

🔹 Website: https://www.TheRadiantLifeProject.com

🔹 Email: kate@theradiantlifeproject.com

🔹 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theradiantlifeproject/

🔹 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/theradiantlifeproject/

🔹 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheRadiantLifeProject/

🔹 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChxGCo2H8iWIReg8X6ADubg

🔹 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theradiantlifeproject

💬 Final Thought

If you’ve ever asked yourself, “Why do I stay?” — this episode will help you find clarity, courage, and compassion for your next step.

🎧 Listen now and start choosing yourself.

🌸 Join the EmpowerHer Community

If this episode resonated with you and you’re ready to stop people-pleasing, set healthier boundaries, and build empowered relationships, come join us inside the EmpowerHer Community.

✨ A supportive space for women healing from toxic patterns
 ✨ Weekly guidance, tools, and conversations
 ✨ A place to grow, reflect, and reconnect with yourself

👉 Join the EmpowerHer Community

🎙️ Stop Calling It Love: The 7 Toxic Traps That Keep Women Stuck

Subtitle: How to Know When to Mend a Relationship — or Walk Away

Guest: Kate King, MA, LPC, ATR-BC
Licensed Professional Counselor | Board-Certified Art Therapist
Founder of The Radiant Life Project



[00:00:00] Cedric: “What if the reason you feel stuck… isn’t weakness… but familiarity?”

[00:00:04] Dolores: “What if it’s not love… but a trauma bond?” 

[00:00:08] Kate King LPC: you're never stuck. It might seem like it at times, and it might feel like. Impossible to imagine how there could actually be movement or choices.

[00:00:18] Sarah: How do you know when a relationship is misaligned… or truly toxic?

[00:00:23] Kate King LPC: Sometimes kindness actually looks like boundaries. Sometimes it says, I'm not gonna participate in something that hurts everyone. And in, in my kindness, I'm protecting everyone by saying no to this.

[00:00:35] Paula: If you’ve ever wondered whether to stay… or finally walk away…

[00:00:39] MEND OR MOVE ON

[00:00:41] Stop Calling It Love: The 7 Toxic Traps That Keep Women Stuck

[00:00:45] Listen now. Watch now.

[00:00:47] 

[00:01:37] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: I want to introduce you all to someone whose work has touched thousands of lives today, and whose heart for healing is truly extraordinary. My guest today, Kat King, a licensed professional counselor. A board certified art therapist and the founder of the Radiant Life Project.

[00:01:59] Kate brings more [00:02:00] than 17 years of experience helping individuals heal the emotional wound patterns and inherited beliefs that keep them stuck. She's a four-time first place winning author, a radiant life coach, and an inspired teacher who walks alongside others on their healing journey. With compassion, clarity, and depth, and her newest book published by John Hopkins University titled, mend or Move On.

[00:02:31] A guide to healing or leaving toxic relationships, and this book is powerful and that's what we will be talking today. It's deeply validating this guide for anyone navigating toxic misaligned. Painful relationships. And for the women in our community, especially our people pleasers, who have spent years, people pleasing over-functioning, losing their identity, their voice, their power, trying to hold [00:03:00] unhealthy relationships together, this works, speaks directly to you all.

[00:03:05] So Kate, I'm truly honored to have you here today. Thank you for making the time to join us and welcome to Empowering Women in Conversations. 

[00:03:14] Kate King LPC: Thank you. What a nice introduction. 

[00:03:18] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: I just can't say enough how amazing your work is, and I just resonated so much with it. what I wanted to know and just wanted to let my audience know.

[00:03:31] Can you share a little bit on what brought you into this path with the Radiant Life Project Movement? 

[00:03:40] Kate King LPC: Yeah, so I've been a therapist for almost 20 years now and studied all different aspects of clinical populations and had lots of different trainings, and of course, continue doing my inner work, my personal therapy, the entire time walking this talk, not just.

[00:03:58] talking it and recommending [00:04:00] others do it, but really integrating it myself. And when I was writing my last book called The Radiant Life Project, it's a masterclass, self-help manual for people that I wrote during the pandemic because I felt so many people needed those therapeutic tools and they weren't accessible for everyone.

[00:04:17] And so this, the book, the Radiant Life Project, really has a lot of those. Embedded. And then I kept looking for a place to put a relationship chapter into the Radiant Life Project, and it was so full of other tools that I didn't have room and my editor told me I had enough words. And so it was a blessing because I actually needed an entire book for the relationship conversation, not just a chapter.

[00:04:41] So that is how I chose to write, mend, or Move On, which is. A deep dive into relationships of all kinds, romantic, platonic, friendships, family dynamics, professional dynamics, those relationships in your life that are ultra challenging, that [00:05:00] feel really toxic, dysfunctional, maybe even abusive or dangerous.

[00:05:04] And so this is the deep dive for people who are kind of on that teeter-totter of, should I? Day or should I go? And it's informed by my clinical practice and all the clients who I work with. It's also informed by my personal experiences of having dysfunction in my own family and even going no contact with select family members who I could not find repair with after decades of efforts.

[00:05:27] I. Just scoured the research and I found so much incredible research to support how to really cultivate healthy relationships and how to recognize when a relationship is unhealthy and either repair it and do the work it takes to grow something new and healthy together, or to walk away with dignity and respect for all involved.

[00:05:49] It doesn't even require hatred or negativity. It's just movement toward peace and freedom. 

[00:05:55] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Oh, I love how you said that because people assume when we go no contact, [00:06:00] oh, but you have to forgive. And what makes them think that we don't forgive? Because I also decided to go no contact with certain family members and I forgive and I'm at peace. 

[00:06:12] And there's a difference between forgiveness and tolerance. This happened to me last week. Well, than Thanksgiving week. I go out and about Costco, right? And I'm in the book section. We're book nerds in my family, and I remember I was talking I said a word and the person behind me just passes going, oh, I've never heard someone say that word in a while.

[00:06:36] And I turn around and I'm like, really? And she's like, oh my gosh. And she mentions my name and gives me a big hug, and I'm like. I realized it was my sister and she doesn't, she lives, oh my gosh. I know. I hadn't seen her in over 10 years. That's how long, because I'm in no contact with my family members and with her, I know, I think she has me on social media, but [00:07:00] I'm just no contact.

[00:07:01] Like she has her journey. I have mine. No, ill will. It is just, it was so dysfunctional and so. How are you doing? these are my kids, and oh, this is your son, and how is your, and then on your merry way. And I was just like, oh my gosh. And I remember running into, we had a Friendsgiving, and I was telling my friend, and I was like, oh, yeah, I, ran into my sister.

[00:07:25] And they're like, you're, you're no contact. And I'm like, well, yeah. They couldn't conceive of it, and it was well, why, why don't you even, maybe it's a sign if you run into them to get back together. Let's, I know. Let's blame Hallmark and Disney. How, what is your response to that?

[00:07:46] Kate King LPC: Yeah, it's sort of a romantic notion. It's idyllic to believe that. families can always be Hallmark and Disney and that because you were born into these people, that there's some type of [00:08:00] protective bubble around that system that will always be happy and joyful. And I think it feels good for people to believe that and to believe in the signs for repair and for returning and fixing and family never giving up.

[00:08:13] we even have these truisms people say family's family no matter what or. Blood is thicker than water, right? 

[00:08:20] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes, yes. I literally said that. 

[00:08:22] Kate King LPC: So it feels people are attached to this idea of family always working out and having a happy ending, and so they might unconsciously nudge you toward that for their own peace of mind without getting curious about, huh?

[00:08:38] If you're no contact with this person. There must be a really good reason for that. I'm so curious. Tell me more how is that for you, getting into those types of questions help me understand, is so much more intimacy providing than just making assumptions or having the hallmark perspective of families.

[00:08:58] And it really can help you bond [00:09:00] with people if you start to say, wow, that's really interesting. Can I. Can I ask more about that or would you share more and then before you know it, you know more about someone who you maybe wouldn't have before. You might find, find common interests together. There might be potential for deeper conversation or, or new rabbit holes you could explore together and conversation.

[00:09:20] I think it's always beautiful to approach people with curiosity rather than assumption. 

[00:09:25] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. Because then it makes the other person, it's like that judgment and. And just because somebody else's family was not dysfunctional doesn't mean it doesn't apply to everybody else's family because, there's a thing in Spanish, like the fingers in our hands we're all different.

[00:09:45] So just offering that space of difference and, and you're right about that belief that, oh, everything's Hallmark and Disney. And one of the songs from Garth Brooks that I love. Is he says, yes. [00:10:00] blood is thicker than water, but love, love is thicker than blood. Yeah. I love that. And so, and that's how I responded.

[00:10:09] Oh, you may believe that blood is thicker than water, but for me, love is thicker than blood. 

[00:10:15] And I love, the best way I can love my mother is by doing no contact. Yeah. And that's me showing love. 

[00:10:23] Kate King LPC: Right. So 

[00:10:24] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: yeah. Right. 

[00:10:25] Kate King LPC: What you're speaking to is the difference between being nice and being kind, right?

[00:10:30] being nice is a trauma response. In some cases it's the nervous system trying to people please and make people happy, and make people like you, and so you do what's the nice thing to do, but sometimes it's not actually the kindest thing to do. The kindest thing to do, which comes from.

[00:10:45] The true generosity in your heart. Sometimes that doesn't look nice at all. Sometimes kindness actually looks like boundaries. Sometimes it says, I'm not gonna participate in something that hurts everyone. And in, in my kindness, I'm protecting [00:11:00] everyone by saying no to this. So that's what do I, what I hear when you talk about that is that that's a kind response to your mother to be able to be, I can love you best from over here.

[00:11:11] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes, exactly. Thank you for sharing. And so now let's talk about this relationships and part of your book. There's the three types of relationships, because I mentioned how everybody has their own type of family dynamics. And you mentioned what I usually tell my patients a relationship is anything between two people, be it a stranger, the postman, and you defined even in more clarity.

[00:11:39] The three different types of relationships. And before we get into the three, I want them to know how you define relationships. 

[00:11:51] Kate King LPC: Being an author, I'm a word nerd. I like etymology and sometimes I like to look into where words came [00:12:00] from and how they became. And sometimes they're inspiring.

[00:12:02] So I looked up relationship and it was. Sorely lacking. It was the most boring. I don't even remember. It was just so boring. I couldn't even put it in my book. So I decided I'd just make up my own ish etymology of how I think of relationships. And so I break the word into two parts relation. Which is a meaningful connection between people and ship, which is a vessel that holds it afloat and weathers the storm together.

[00:12:29] And so that relationship is the how you weather the storm and float and ride the waves with the people that you really love and care about. I 

[00:12:38] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: love that. And then in the book you discuss the three types of relationships, which is utility relationships. Pleasure relationships and appreciation relationships.

[00:12:52] And I want you to, let's deep dive first on the utility relationships that you see [00:13:00] transactional. So for people pleasers that would be being needed often feels like being loved and them learning how they can tell the difference. Can you please explain utility relationships? 

[00:13:14] Kate King LPC: Yeah, so the reason why there are three different types of relationships is because it's too much for everyone in your life to be the most meaningful and important and intimate with you.

[00:13:26] You'll burn out too quickly. You don't have capacity to love everyone in your life equally. So there are different tiers of connection, and so the relationship appreciation is the deepest, truest, most generous love. Those are your closest people. Mm-hmm. Relationships of pleasure are the people you do fun things with.

[00:13:45] Maybe you see them often. You have a football party together, or you go on a walk together, but they're not really the people you call for chicken soup when you're sick, right? they're not your closest. Closest. And then the relationships of utility are the people who surf some kind of [00:14:00] function in your life, right?

[00:14:01] your mail person delivers your mail. So it's appropriate for you to be small talk with that person. How's your holiday? What's going on with your day? But it's not really appropriate for you to deep dive with them and tell them about your family trauma or tell them about what's going on in your marriage.

[00:14:15] Right? So different levels of intimacy have different. prerequisites of how close you should be, how much you should share, and each of these three types of relationships, there's what I like to call the shadow side and the sunny side, which is there's a healthy version of each of these, and then there's a more unhealthy, dysfunctional version of each of these.

[00:14:36] And so knowing when to sort of toe the line between each is important because you could have a relationship of utility with, say, your favorite waitress. And every time you go to her restaurant, you have small talk. It feels great. You look forward to seeing each other. Or you could have a really toxic relationship of utility with someone where you're giving something that you don't really wanna give.

[00:14:59] maybe you're showing up [00:15:00] to your kids' school and you're volunteering, but you don't wanna be volunteering, you don't wanna be there. You don't actually like that group of people. You're not showing up authentically. And so those are examples of how that relationship of utility. Can look, there's that continuum from being dysfunctional to being healthy and everywhere in between.

[00:15:19] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Oh yes, exactly. Let's speak about pleasure relationships. And these are the ones for my people pleasers that bring excitement, chemistry. They don't have the emotional intimacy. And this is where women stay even when they know it's not reciprocal and or I notice where. They may give some of their, if I give them a little bit of me, be it their, a sexual intimacy, they'll stay.

[00:15:51] And then it doesn't work. Can you please explain pleasure relationships for my audience? 

[00:15:57] Kate King LPC: Yeah, so we all, we're human [00:16:00] beings. We can't get too serious. We have to have aspects of our life that we just have for fun, whether it's going out and socializing at a happy hour, or maybe there's a group event or a sporting event, things like that.

[00:16:12] Maybe this is the group that you see at. A wedding, right? Where there's 150 people and you all have fun together, right? And so you know enough about each other to have connection. These are also the relationships that tend to result in dopamine hit or serotonin in your brain. they feel good, they feel pleasurable.

[00:16:30] The key to relationships of pleasure. Is letting them be just that. Don't expect your relationships of pleasure to be the ones that check in on you when you're having a bad week, or the person who shows up for you right in the middle of your divorce to support you. Right? that's not the relationship of Pleasure's role. 

[00:16:49] And so you don't wanna be resentful of people when they can't fulfill that role because that's not really. Possible for them, because that's not what the dynamic has built. So just [00:17:00] like the relationships of utility, you can have the dysfunctional aspect or the healthy aspect of relationships of pleasure.

[00:17:07] So if you really honor the relationship for what it is, you have fun with these people. You don't put too much pressure on it, you let them sort of be free and light. That's a healthy relationship of pleasure. But an unhealthy relationship of pleasure would be say if you have a friends with benefit situation.

[00:17:23] Yeah. You're using sexual intimacy to make you feel good after a bad day, and you find that it's almost like a drug that you keep using because it's the only thing that makes you happy. It can also have this with substance use. If you have a group that you always go out drinking with, that can have a shadow element to it where it's not really about pleasure, it's about numbing pain.

[00:17:44] And so being mindful about these relationships of pleasure is important. 

[00:17:49] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes, definitely. And I feel like here's where a little bit of the codependency lies. a little more on, on this aspect of making me feel good. [00:18:00] And it's your job 'cause you're my partner to do this for me, so I could feel good and just, yes.

[00:18:07] Yeah. And so the last part, and we're gonna get more, more in detail, but I just want to discuss the three. and the third one is appreciation relationships. And this is the deepest, healthiest connection, but many women. Usually don't experience this. And what are the key signs of an appreciation relationship?

[00:18:32] How do you define that? 

[00:18:33] Kate King LPC: Yeah, so relationships of appreciation have the deepest intimacy and the healthiest form of that. Deep intimacy is when it runs both ways, and I think that's where a lot of women get kind of snagged, is sometimes they will give a lot more than they receive. This happens in friendships too, where you have 

[00:18:51] A dynamic where one friend is sort of the supportive person and maybe the same person's always reaching out and the other one's never really reaching [00:19:00] out or not really showing up. That creates imbalance in these relationships of appreciation, and it's a sign that maybe this relationship. It doesn't belong in the appreciation bucket.

[00:19:11] Maybe this relationship is more pleasure or more utility, and you've been calling it appreciation because you've wanted that. You've wanted it to become that, but it doesn't have the ingredients to really become that. So reciprocity is really important when it comes to relationships of appreciation. And another aspect that's just essential is safety on the psychological, emotional and physical level, you want to feel.

[00:19:35] Safe to be yourself. You wanna feel like you can express yourself emotionally, like you can show up authentically when you're in these relationships because if you show up to a relationship of appreciation wearing a mask or shape shifting or in some type of triggered pattern. It's not gonna have the capacity for that level of intimacy because that requires authenticity.

[00:19:58] So that's a sign that [00:20:00] either the relationship needs to be repaired if it's going to stay in the appreciation bucket, or it needs to be shifted to one of the other types. 

[00:20:08] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yeah, and I feel communication skills is huge here because I know for me and my marriage, we have the administrative part.

[00:20:18] Which in in the household, doctor's appointments and pickups and drop offs, and at times we turn into utility relationship. Then at times we can go out and have fun. It could be a pleasure relationships, but then at time it could be appreciation. But you know, you also discussed, 'cause I wanna bring this up with the three different types of relationships, the misaligned and the toxic or dysfunctional relationships.

[00:20:46] And if you can just describe or explain those two differences. 

[00:20:52] Kate King LPC: So the misaligned versus toxic, do you mean how can you tell the difference? Yes. 'cause I know 

[00:20:58] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: sometimes with with me and my [00:21:00] husband, right now, oh my God, I know you hear me moaning people 'cause the holidays. I feel yes, it's the wonderful time of the year, but let me tell you my.

[00:21:12] My protector part comes out mostly here and our relationship tends to be more utility than pleasure. always have appreciation, but man, utility or appreciation and pleasure's not there. 'cause we're just so busy, especially being a mom of three girls. Yeah. and, and so I wanna make sure my husband's aligned.

[00:21:30] Where I'm aligned because if I'm in the utility, we gotta, do a, B, c, type A personality and he's in the appreciation or let's have fun. we have a misalignment. Right? And, and so, and that doesn't 

[00:21:44] Kate King LPC: mean it's necessarily toxic, right? So yeah, I wanna explain the difference here because especially with social media these days, there's a lot of these pop psychology buzz words toxic or narcissist or gaslighting.

[00:21:56] Right. These are overused to the point [00:22:00] where so many people, they don't even look they see the word and they're like, Ugh, I'm soaked. Sick of this, but the truth is, is that these are actually psychological terms that have real clinical meaning if they're used correctly. And so the word toxic has become overused, and I think many people use it to describe a relationship that just doesn't feel good, or people just aren't behaving how you want them to.

[00:22:23] You're really irritated with someone that's not a toxic relationship. Yeah, that's a misaligned relationship. That's when somebody bugs you. Maybe you're in a season where you're not feeling as close to them. Maybe you don't want a relationship with them, and that's okay, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic.

[00:22:39] So I have three indicators. To help you when you're not sure if a relationship is actually toxic or if it's just misaligned and here they are. So the first one is that it's consistent and persistent in the negativity, the aggression, the abuse, the manipulation. It's not just a one-off experience. It's not [00:23:00] a one-time thing where you're like, wow, that person's being really irritable today, but it's actually something you experience on repeat with this person. 

[00:23:08] I know with my experience in my toxic family, I had. Decades where I would leave gatherings with this person in tears. Yes. And it would take my husband days to help me regulate. I'd have therapy set up the next week. Yeah. he was so consistent and so persistent that my nervous system was actually prepared for it and bracing for it.

[00:23:28] That is an indication for toxicity. 

[00:23:30] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. 

[00:23:31] Kate King LPC: Yeah. And then the second thing is that the relationship is truly abusive and harmful. It hurts you on a very real level, and this doesn't always show blood or bruises or broken bones. Sometimes it does if it's physically abusive, but emotional and psychological abuse, those are invisible scars that you feel deeply, but other people can't see.

[00:23:53] And so sometimes it's hard to really own how damaging the relationship is because it's. It's not [00:24:00] like objectively obvious to everyone. So on this level, psycho-emotional trauma is very subjective. You get to discern how much you let someone hurt you, and at what point it becomes. Too much to tolerate anymore. 

[00:24:14] But if a relationship feels truly harmful, you are in tears. You feel broken down, you feel depleted. You have to do damage control. You have to go to therapy. That's an indication that it's toxic. And then the third measure for toxic relationships. As a therapist, I always like to bring people into the body for that somatic and visceral experience.

[00:24:36] So. My term is kind of silly, not so eloquent. It's called that pushy pully, twisty burny feeling in your body. It's like you're tense, but you're also nauseous. You're, you're wired, but you're also tired. You have this feeling of leaning in but revolting back, like you have a knot in your stomach and in your throat.

[00:24:55] It's just. Really uncomfortable inner experience [00:25:00] when you're with that person or when you're about to go see that person or after you've been with that person. So I would say those are your top three reasons for really knowing that it's not just misaligned. It's toxic, it's twisty, turny, pushy, pully.

[00:25:14] Yeah. It's truly hurtful and harmful to you. And it's consistent and persistent. 

[00:25:19] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. And then, well, we're gonna get now into the, the seven traps, only because this is where we talk about , the seven traps of toxic relationships. This is where, okay. What happens that if we are in.

[00:25:38] Toxic relationship. We get stuck there. But before we deep dive in there, I wanna kind of roll it back here. What happens when your relationship is just misaligned? What can, what can you do to kind of get that alignment back on track? 

[00:25:52] Kate King LPC: Yeah. So even if your relationship is not toxic, if it's just misaligned, you might still be at that mend or move [00:26:00] on choice point.

[00:26:00] Like for you in your marriage, you might be yeah, we are gonna repair this. We're committed partners. We're in this together. For someone who's mend or move on with this friend who I don't feel that connected to anymore, and we never see each other. Maybe you don't try to mend it, maybe you just let it go.

[00:26:16] So it's okay for a misaligned relationship to be in the repair stage or to be in the ending stage. I just wanna kind of put that out. You don't have to wait for something to be toxic for it to end. Yes. But if you are in a misaligned relationship and you wanna get it back on track, I would say. The first and most important thing is just your own awareness of it.

[00:26:37] Like, wow, this feels, this feels not so great to me. I'm not feeling supported. I'm not feeling connected. I miss you. I don't have the intimacy with you that we normally do. And noticing in yourself because so often with misalignment. It happens because we click into autopilot and we just get busy with the holidays or our kids, we're distracted.

[00:26:57] We're not paying attention, and we're not really [00:27:00] nurturing that bond as much as we do when we're more intentional. So bringing awareness to, it's the first step. And then I would invite you to have. Really clear communication from a place of love and curiosity. With your counterpart, I would invite you to say Hey, let's set aside a little bit of time if this is your spouse.

[00:27:18] You know, maybe after the kids go to bed, let's have a cup of tea together and let's talk about something that's been on my mind. Or if it's a friend Hey, you wanna grab a cup of coffee with me sometime? Or maybe we can go for a walk. I've had something laying heavy on my heart that I wanna share with you.

[00:27:32] And then meet them and meet them authentically. Start with how much you care, how much you love them, right? And say, I, you are such an important person. I appreciate you so deeply. And it's felt like lately we're misaligned. Are you feeling that too? And see, and I'm sure that they probably feel it too. And if not, that is an indication to them that they're on cruise control and they're not paying attention. 

[00:27:57] And so I would express [00:28:00] needs. I wouldn't have a blame perspective of these are the things you're doing wrong. Instead, I would say, these are the things I'm taking ownership of. I realize that maybe there's accountability for me here. I've been really checked out, or I've been really irritable lately, and I'm sorry that I've taken some of that out on you.

[00:28:19] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: I didn't mean to, it's not about you. I have these needs that are not being met presently in our relationship and I'm wondering if we can work on this together. Now this is the question that I get asked sometimes with some, with some friends and, and for me it's easy 'cause I already know the misalignment, right?

[00:28:38] But I've noticed also in some of my patients too, where they want to be the one to speak up and say, Hey, I noticed a misalignment. And maybe the other person's like, well, I mean, I think we're good now and they're in a utility relationship, and maybe the other one. wants to have more of the appreciation relationship, and they really [00:29:00] want the other person to be where they're at and go, oh yes, we'll do this and that.

[00:29:04] And sometimes mindsets are different. Growth mindsets are different. You're not gonna hear it from them, what do you do? And then they wanna think, oh, they're the bad person. They're just narcissists. Thinking about themselves throwing all those buzz words but it's not that they're bad people, it's just you're misaligned.

[00:29:22] Right. And they don't want to be the one to just. They're stubborn. What do, how can they, what can you say? 

[00:29:30] Kate King LPC: So often we tend to give what we hope to receive Yes. From others. So if you're a physical touch person and you really want somebody to hug you and rub your back, you're probably more likely to do that for other people as an unconscious invitation for them to reciprocate.

[00:29:48] That's not really clear communication, right? That's modeling. But if you actually need something, let's use the hug example, and you're look, I really just need a hug. every day I need it to last [00:30:00] 10 seconds. Can you do that for me? Then you give the other person the chance to be Of course I can do that for you.

[00:30:06] No problem. But they also might say no. they probably, not with a hug, but if this is a different type of need that they cannot do. I need you to call me every day at three o'clock. They'll be I can't do that for you. 

[00:30:17] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yeah. 

[00:30:18] Kate King LPC: But then you know the answer because you've asked the clear question.

[00:30:21] And so rather than blaming them for being honest about the limits of their capacity and their willingness, you can instead be grateful that they were honest with you and ask yourself, is this a need that I can meet for myself internally? Or is this a need that I truly need someone else to fill for me?

[00:30:38] And most of the time they're internal needs. It's okay, I better go back to therapy and work on that level. why do I need a phone call at 3:00 PM every day? It's my anxious hour. That's my responsibility, right? Yes. It truly is something you need from another person. I really need to be able to I need a hug.

[00:30:54] I can't hug myself I need this. Then you can look elsewhere if you have other [00:31:00] relationships of appreciation. You might have a sibling who shows up for you that, or someone at your kid's school who gives the greatest hugs, or maybe there's somebody in the periphery of your friend group that you can reach.

[00:31:12] Too. So it doesn't all have to fall on the same people because we're allowed to have our limits and we're allowed to say no. And I think the healthiest relationships are those that communicate their boundaries. Yes. So you know where each other's edges are, and you're not obligated to fill everybody's needs you can the ones that feel right to you.

[00:31:30] That feel aligned, and you can say no to those that don't. 

[00:31:34] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. What do you do to the people who are passive? I mean, I know what they mean, but others, not that they know, they want them to say it, but they're not, they're not authentic. They're not at that journey yet. And that's okay.

[00:31:46] But for some it's not. If they're passive, and they're not saying what they're wanting to be honest about, what is a quick phrase or something they can tell themselves to know, this is how it's gonna be. 

[00:31:59] Kate King LPC: No, I think [00:32:00] if you wanted to, if you feel you wanna push back a little on that passivity 

[00:32:03] In a gentle way you could say. I'm not clear on what you're expressing. I'm not clear on what your needs are. Can you please say that a little more clearly for me so that I understand better? 

[00:32:14] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. 

[00:32:15] Kate King LPC: Just ask for more clarity. or you could make a reflection and you could say that seems a really ambiguous answer.

[00:32:21] Do you have more clarity or do you actually feel ambiguous about that? 

[00:32:24] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. It's don't avoid it either for the people pleasers and stay with the passivity. Be clear and just say, yeah, I, I am not getting it. And yes, thank you so much. 

[00:32:38] Kate King LPC: It'll empowering to say things that because yes, actually meeting your own need for clarity by just being.

[00:32:45] Curious about other people and asking for information. It's not a breach of boundaries. It's not you're forcing them into anything. You're just saying I care about you and I'm trying to get information, but I'm, I'm not hearing this clearly. can you help me understand? 

[00:32:58] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yeah. And it's okay to [00:33:00] ask those questions 'cause you want to get to that alignment better.

[00:33:05] Kate King LPC: Right. And if, if people are unable to reach clarity, even after you ask for it, then you have to let that go as their work. That is not your responsibility, that's their comfort level. It's the layer that they're at in their own process, and you have to let that be okay, because not everyone is going to be open or willing to do the healing work that you are willing to do.

[00:33:25] And that has to be okay too. 

[00:33:26] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Oh yeah. You know, with my, me and my sister, just misaligned. That's okay. We're at peace with that. Very at peace. And I love her and she loves me, and this is where we're at. And if it's not okay with others, then that's something that they need to reflect on. So, yes. Yeah.

[00:33:44] And so the other part of your book, which is huge, powerful, and by the way guys, there's a lot more. But we only have time for these two. So you can imagine what more golden nuggets there is in this book. And she talks about the [00:34:00] seven. You talk about the seven traps of toxic relationships and these invisible forces that keep women stuck.

[00:34:07] A relationship that is painful, draining, clearly unhealthy. And again, this book is, is gender neutral, but for the sake of of my audience, more so women, but let's, can we walk through each one? 

[00:34:21] Kate King LPC: Yes. Yeah. So I have designed these seven traps because they have shown up. Over and over, across so many different populations and age groups and socioeconomics, this is very consistent depending on really anyone.

[00:34:36] So, and maybe there are more than seven, but it felt this was the, the right amount. Yeah. So the first trap that people get stuck in is. Buy-in where they're buying into a certain type of belief system or narrative or way of thinking that is really rooted in the toxicity or the dysfunction.

[00:34:55] They're not challenging it. They're not rethinking it. They're just taking it at [00:35:00] face value and going along with the dominant narrative of what the system says is right and doable and appropriate. 

[00:35:08] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes, I know that for me, I would do this buy-in in the beginning because I figured, well, me being neurodivergent, I didn't know social skills as much.

[00:35:18] And I thought, well, maybe this is how it's supposed to be. I don't know. Am I wrong? Am I not supposed to mention the white elephant in the room? am I not supposed to ask questions? 'cause there's a saying in, in, for women, the quieter you are, the more prettier you look. And so. I would buy into that.

[00:35:37] ' cause women have to be appeasing and pleasing and you shouldn't be disagreeable. Right. And, and so I would buy into that, but it would, it would hurt me emotionally and psychologically, and not until I challenged it, but, yeah, usually here's where the buy-in on why they stay. It's they. [00:36:00] They, they don't question it, but deep inside, there's something there.

[00:36:05] what's one way they can get out of that trap? 

[00:36:09] Kate King LPC: Rethink what you think, even if it's something that's really obvious to you. we always go to Christmas together. That's just what our family does. Bought into that idea. 

[00:36:18] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Okay. 

[00:36:18] Kate King LPC: Rethinking it would be Hmm, do we have to, what would happen if I didn't go to Christmas this year?

[00:36:24] Huh, you think I would survive? Would it be okay just rethinking what you think you know and starting to loosen up some of the structure around those rigid beliefs that you're suddenly not buying into so automatically. 

[00:36:37] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Oh, yes. Now, trap number two, the comfort trap. This is my favorite one because this is where the nervous system prefers familiar pain over the unknown freedom.

[00:36:50] Kate King LPC: Yes. So trap number two, comfort. We can be so much more comfortable with something that's familiar to us, even [00:37:00] if it's really unhealthy for us. And that's sort of paradoxical and counterintuitive. But really if you think about it. It's scary to do something that's new or unknown, and for your nervous system, it might have found a way to predict the dysfunction and play the game and just be all right, I figured out how to stay comfortable within this discomfort, I've got this dialed.

[00:37:22] So that's the comfort trap. And so if people are going to shift that dynamic in themselves, it requires a spark of bravery to activate. Willingness to step into the unknown, do things differently. Yes, don't just be comfortable in the dysfunction, but show up in a new way that maybe. Doesn't allow the dysfunction or calls it out in a different way, or doesn't give space to it in a different way.

[00:37:48] And notice how your nervous system is ah, this is uncomfortable. But uncomfortable isn't always the same as unsafe. Sometimes uncomfortable just means you're in new territory and you're teaching your nervous system something [00:38:00] different. 

[00:38:00] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes, and this is where I tell people, okay, people assume that bravery, you're not gonna be scared and no, Brenda Brown says it best.

[00:38:11] In order to be vulnerable, you need to have the courage and you're going to be scared. And that's what bravery is. Bravery to be vulnerable, bravery to be scared enough. To still do it anyways. I'm still scared, but it's enough for me to just do it anyways because there's no other way for me. So, totally.

[00:38:33] Kate King LPC: Yeah. I like the quote from the author Susan David, who wrote the book Emotional Agility. Her quote is, courage is Fear Walking. I love that. Yes, of course. You're afraid, keep going. Don't stop. Just keep walking even if fear is with you. 

[00:38:51] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. Yes. Make friends with it. Using internal family systems. My fear part with the bravery part, I love that.[00:39:00] 

[00:39:00] Yeah. Okay. Trap number three. This is where many women believe I can't leave. I have no control. What creates that learned helplessness? 

[00:39:09] Kate King LPC: Yes, this trap number three is powerlessness. So people get stuck in the powerlessness trap. When they surrender autonomy, they surrender independence. They give up control of their own life, and they kind of, they kind of settle into the idea that this is just how it's gonna be.

[00:39:28] I have no choice. They're really embedded in victim consciousness and they feel small and collapsed and powerless, which is usually. What the abuser wants them to feel because it keeps them easy to control and easy to sort of have power over. And so to break out of the powerlessness trap again requires courage, bravery, and that activation to stand up tall and to say, I have choice.

[00:39:53] I have autonomy. Maybe I don't really see what my choices are right now, but I believe they're there and I'm gonna [00:40:00] go investigate what they might be. 

[00:40:01] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. And I highly believe this one is huge for support systems because if you don't have a family support system, a friend support system, well, I don't have anyone or anything.

[00:40:15] Then we find a support system. There's so many online support system. I know with mine, I have the 12 step people pleasing group. I have the community. So know that you're not alone, but support systems here helps because one of the common. phrases I hear is, well, I don't have anyone. 

[00:40:31] Kate King LPC: Yeah. And there are always, if you exist in the world, there are others like you who are looking for you too.

[00:40:38] And when you find each other and you have that kind of supportive reciprocity where it feels like you're being seen and validated and empowered together in connection, that can be so strengthening in terms of getting outta these traps. 

[00:40:51] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. And trap number four also. So super common. Oh my goodness. We take all the blame [00:41:00] people pleasers immediately.

[00:41:01] Assume it must be me. I'm the one in the problem. Please mention trap number four. 

[00:41:07] Kate King LPC: Okay. Trap number four, I call false ownership, and this means that you are taking responsibility for everything that is not working. You're taking it all upon your shoulders, and this is in some level because you feel that if it's all your fault, then maybe there's some way that you can fix it.

[00:41:23] You're in control. But really. How could it all be your fault? How could it all be because of you? It's not. That's not how relationships work. They don't work in a vacuum like that where there's only one person at play in the dysfunction. It's a systemic problem, but by taking false ownership, you're either putting yourself or you're letting others put you into the role of the scapegoat where you're carrying all of that negative shadow energy and it's allowing everyone else.

[00:41:52] To avoid accountability, and that's a really sticky trap for systems that have manipulation and personality disorder [00:42:00] traits because they don't wanna take accountability and they love that you're gonna take that false ownership. So the way to break out of the false ownership trap is to really do your own inner work to realize.

[00:42:11] This is mine. This is not mine. This is the thing that I did that I can make amends for, that I can repair, and this is the thing that you did that I'm gonna let you have responsibility for, and I'm not gonna enable you to avoid your own accountability. 

[00:42:25] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes, at best you're responsible of a hundred percent of 50% of the relationship.

[00:42:33] And that's it, guys. Oh, yes. And trap number five. This is where childhood trauma shapes the kind of relationships we tolerate. 

[00:42:43] Kate King LPC: Right. So trap number five is unhealed trauma. When you are relating to other people from the perspective of your wounds and your trauma that has yet to be healed, it's like you're looking through a lens and you're not seeing things clearly.

[00:42:57] You're seeing things. Through that unhealed part [00:43:00] of you that's grasping for safety or has really low self-worth or feels really confused, might feel a lot younger than you actually are. So in order to break free from that. Go to therapy, read my book. Listen to this podcast. Yes. do the work to heal your own trauma, and you'll find that your trauma healing will happen in layers.

[00:43:22] And so you might have to revisit some of the most really ingrained and profound trauma in your life. And that's okay because every time you revisit and you work on it and you have insight into another layer, you're getting closer and closer to the light of really, yeah. That part? 

[00:43:39] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. Yes. The only way to get over the the wound and the trauma is to get through it.

[00:43:45] Yes. Get through the pain. The only way to get over the pain is to get through the pain. Yes. And trap number six. You talk about avoidance as a powerful trap, and I see it a lot avoiding conflict. Truth change. How can women [00:44:00] break this pattern? Please talk about trap number six. 

[00:44:03] Kate King LPC: trap number six is avoidance.

[00:44:04] This can happen in a couple different ways. So it can be avoidance of the problem. That there's a problem at all. we're fine, or like all families are dysfunctional, this is okay. That's avoiding that there's a problem. Another way that this shows up is avoiding the role that you play in co-creating the problem.

[00:44:21] And this means not taking accountability for the way that you participate, you enable, you allow this dynamic, you perpetuate this dynamic so you can break out of the avoidance trap. By looking at the problem and being honest with yourself about what the problem is and the role that you play, and then doing your inner work once again, to be able to extricate yourself from that tendency to avoid and just be really honest that something's not okay.

[00:44:49] Something needs to change. This is what I can apologize for. This is what I'm gonna start working on, and. This is not working for me. 

[00:44:57] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. I remember this famous person, [00:45:00] and he said, do the hard stuff. The only way to be successful is.

[00:45:06] Do the hard stuff. The only way to go through healing is do the hard stuff. Right. So yes, 

[00:45:13] Kate King LPC: lean in. Yeah, lean in. And it's never really good for anyone to avoid the truth. 

[00:45:18] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yeah. Yes. And finally, this one is huge. I feel they're all huge, but this one can be infinite. This is the deepest root.

[00:45:28] Take out the weeds. We don't just cut the grass, is what I tell my patients.. The codependent bond. Let's, let's talk about trap number seven. 

[00:45:35] Kate King LPC: Okay, so trap number seven. The last one is codependency. So I define codependency as having a blurry line between where you end and they begin 

[00:45:44] I am not okay until you're okay. And if you're okay, then I'm okay. But I can't be okay until you're okay because we're the same unit. Yeah. That's codependent. It doesn't allow you to have your independence, your freedom, and to see yourself as a separate being. So to break outta the [00:46:00] codependency trap, I try to move people to a perspective of interdependence, which is a term from Dr.

[00:46:06] Dan Siegel. So interdependence is essentially where. You relate, you connect, you lean on each other. You help each other, but you remain autonomous and separate individuals. And that's the difference between codependency and interdependency. And it could take a lot of therapy to get there because that codependent wound can be really sticky, but it's worth it to move out of that and towards inter Oh 

[00:46:29] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: yes.

[00:46:30] This is where you find your voice regain your power and your authenticity. If you just. Go through this. Oh, this has been amazing. Kate, before we wrap up our conversation, thank you so much, Kate, for all this knowledge. And again, this has only been like a third of the book, so I can imagine what more golden nuggets we're gonna get and for anyone wanting to connect with Kate, where can we find you in your work?

[00:46:56] Kate King LPC: So my hub for all of my work is my website, the Radiant [00:47:00] life project.com. You can also find me on socials at the Radiant Life Project. That's my handle. and you can find my books anywhere. Books are sold? 

[00:47:08] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. Right now. She has a new book. Please show them 'cause we're wearing the colors. I didn't plan this.

[00:47:14] I know. It's my favorite colors. Pink and purple. Oh, so good. And I love the yellow highlights. It's an accent color and it's on pre-order and available by January. So I'll be sending the, putting the links in the show notes for everybody. And it's, and so before we wrap up our conversation, I normally ask two questions just to kind of get a little bit more insight 

[00:47:39] And reflection for my audience. So in your own words, what is your definition of an empowered woman? 

[00:47:49] Kate King LPC: I think an empowered woman is really grounded and rooted in herself and in her self worth, and she doesn't settle for less than what [00:48:00] feels like the absolute highest integrity. Oh 

[00:48:04] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: yes. I love that.

[00:48:07] And for the last question, I want you to imagine that far into the future, everything about who you are, your work, your legacy, your teachings were lost due to some unforeseen circumstance and generations pass. I know generations past three generations later, through the women in your lineage, a single handwritten letter is discovered.

[00:48:33] If you had that chance through that letter, what message would you want her to carry forward about empowerment or healing or becoming themselves, or what truth would you bestow unto her? 

[00:48:47] Kate King LPC: Wow. This is not a fair question because there's so many.

[00:48:53] I'm thinking of my daughter right now and sort of what I would wanna bestow unto her if she were three generations. I think I would, I think [00:49:00] I would really remind them that you're never stuck. It might seem like it at times, and it might feel like. Impossible to imagine how there could actually be movement or choices.

[00:49:12] But there are always movements, there are always choices. You just have to keep looking and you have to give up the belief that you're stuck and then you'll start to move. 

[00:49:22] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Oh, I love that. Yes. Just keep going. And I like the dory from, finding Nemo. Just keep swimming. 

[00:49:30] Kate King LPC: Yeah, and just always believe that you're not stuck.

[00:49:34] You just have to find, find that little open door, the open window, the wiggle room, because it's always there. 

[00:49:41] Anita Sandoval MA, LPC-S: Yes. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your passion, your legacy here, your words. I am sure resonated with me and with my audience. So to everyone listening, you deserve relationships that honor your worth, reflect your truth, support you in becoming [00:50:00] that authentic woman that you are.

[00:50:01] And thank you for joining us in this powerful conversation. Kate, thank you for being here. 

[00:50:06] Kate King LPC: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:50:08] 

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