Myths, Mastitis, And Milk: We’re Unclogging More Than Ducts

Ever wish someone would tell you the truth about breastfeeding without the guilt or the gadgets? We bring on Samantha, a seasoned NICU nurse and International Board Certified Lactation Consultant, to cut through the noise and give you a clear path forward—whether you’re nursing, pumping, combo feeding, or bottle feeding from day one.

We start with the realities most classes skip: colostrum is enough for many newborns, full milk often takes five to seven days, and supply typically regulates around six to eight weeks. Samantha shares what successful latch actually looks like, why positioning changes everything, and how to listen for swallows so you know milk is moving. She explains how inconsistent pumping, poorly fitted flanges, or relying on wearables without proper setup can invite clogs and mastitis—and how to avoid those traps with simple, consistent routines.

Funding cuts and mixed hospital advice make support feel out of reach, so we break down practical, affordable ways to get help. You’ll hear why a single, trusted guide can beat a dozen conflicting opinions, why prenatal education is the highest ROI investment you can make, and how to advocate for your plan when policies or timelines get in the way. We also tackle the hot topics: oversupply isn’t the goal, pumping is breastfeeding, nipple confusion is often overstated, and having donor milk or a small formula backup can protect both intake and your mental health. Hydration, nutrition, and rest matter more than your app’s timer—and any amount of your milk is a win.

Leave with five grounded basics that move the needle: get support early, prioritise positioning, master an effective latch, follow baby-led cues over rigid timing, and simplify your tools. If you’re ready to trade stress for support and perfectionism for progress, this conversation will help you build a feeding plan that fits your life.

If this episode helps you breathe a little easier, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more parents can find real, judgement-free support.

Chapters

• 0:12 Meet Samantha, NICU Nurse Turned IBCLC
• 2:14 Why Certification And Hours Matter
• 3:10 The Cost Barrier To Lactation Support
• 4:14 What A Lactation Consultant Actually Does
• 6:10 Confidence, Troubleshooting, And Early Postpartum
• 6:17 Low Local Breastfeeding Rates And Funding Cuts
• 7:50 Free Vs Paid Resources And Awareness Gaps
• 8:44 Prenatal Education Plans And Classes
• 8:58 Mindset Shifts: One Size Does Not Fit All
• 10:29 Milk Coming In, Regulation, And Timelines
• 12:08 Pumps, Oversupply, And Mastitis Risks
• 14:10 Flange Sizing And Wearable Pump Pitfalls
• 16:16 Expressing, Haakaa Myths, And Collection Cups
• 17:52 Hospital Variability And Consistent Advice
• 19:20 Teaching Parents To Do It Themselves
• 20:38 Realistic Prenatal Expectations That Help
• 22:07 Top Five Tips For Early Success
• 24:10 Social Media Noise And Comparison Traps
• 25:20 Mental Health First: Fed Is Best
• 27:00 Nutrition, Hydration, And Gassy Babies
• 28:12 Donor Milk, Formula, And Advocacy
• 30:36 Nipple Confusion, Bottles, And Flexibility
• 32:05 Pumping Counts As Breastfeeding
• 33:08 You’re Not Alone: Getting Support And Contact Info

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:12

Hi, Mamas. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Attend Be Friend. I'm so excited today to welcome Samantha, who is an IBCLC, which means an international board-certified lactation consultant. Samantha has over a decade of experience as a NICU nurse. Her work in neonatal care gave her a deep understanding of the real challenges families face when it comes to feeding their babies. As an IBCLC, Samantha supports parents through every stage of their feeding journey, whether that's breastfeeding, bottle feeding, or finding the approach that works best for their family. She believes that there's no one size-fits-all way to feed a baby and focuses on helping parents feel supported, confident, and understood in their choices. Let's get into this first interview with a lactation consultant. Join us. Hi, Samantha. Thank you so much for being with me today. I'm really excited. This is my first interview with an IBC L C or even a lactation consultant. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17

Thank you, Deborah. I'm so excited to do this with you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20

Great. I want to dive right in. The first time I met you, I really felt like a little bit of an energy connection, and I've been holding on to when I was ready to hire a lactation consultant to come into I love that. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what inspired you to become a lactation consultant.

SPEAKER_04: 1:40

Honestly, I've had such a passion for so many years now. I've been a NICU nurse for the last 11 years. So I've always been helping moms in the NICU setting with breastfeeding and the challenges they face with that. And then outside, I've just been a big help with friends and family. And it just made me realize the lack of support in our community and the need for people to support moms through this journey. So I finally took the plunge and got my IBCLC. And it's honestly been a dream come true since. Tell me a little bit about the certification.

SPEAKER_00: 2:16

What does that look like?

SPEAKER_04: 2:17

So I did an online course through Ann Arbor Breastfeeding Group. It's a self-study course that I had to do over a couple months. And then there's a big exam after that, which I will say was harder than my nursing exam.

SPEAKER_00: 2:33

Nice. That means you're highly qualified. Yes. So I have heard a little bit about the task, the exam. And did you have to do a placement or were you able to get like your hours at the NICU?

SPEAKER_04: 2:46

Yeah, because I work in the NICU, it included in my hours. So that worked out well. And because I had been there for 10 years, um, I had enough of the hours already.

SPEAKER_00: 2:57

That's awesome. I love that. So you've been an IBCLC, which is short for International Board Certified Lactation Consultant for a little over a year. Yes, a little over a year. Awesome. And what are you feeling is the largest or biggest barricade to women? Money. Money.

SPEAKER_04: 3:21

I feel like honestly, there's no funding and no support financially for women in Ontario and Canada for breastfeeding, um, which creates a huge barrier to getting that support for moms because I would love to support everyone out there, but in reality, like it is still my job. And so when moms come to me and they're looking for support and they say they can't afford it, it just kills me. So I try and help them any way I can. And then there's definitely other resources out there. Um, but definitely the financial barrier is a huge one.

SPEAKER_00: 4:01

Yeah, I think I agree. I think that is definitely the biggest barrier for success in breastfeeding. Tell me a little bit about what a day as a lactation consultant looks like for you. I know we we have to consider, first of all, that Samantha also has a full-time job as a NICU nurse, but on the days that you're doing lactation consulting, what would that look like? Would it look like home visits?

SPEAKER_04: 4:26

Majority, so there is the home visits. I offer prenatal consultations, which is my favorite thing to do because if I can get to moms beforehand and teach them and give them realistic expectations, I feel like it sets them up for success after postpartum. So my prenatal education is an in-home education. I go to their house and teach them all the things. And then after that, I do the in-home postnatal visits, which is a lot of the latching issues, positioning when mom's milk starts to come in. Um, but I would say the majority of my days are the like two weeks of phone support that I give the moms after. So after I leave the visit is when the other questions come in and other concerns that they don't think about right when I'm there. And it's a lot of day-to-day just encouraging and troubleshooting little things over the phone is yeah, that's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00: 5:20

I love that you use the word troubleshooting because that's one of the biggest things that I find is that after we have the baby or side, that the first two weeks is not that they a hundred percent need you to teach them everything, it's the troubleshooting. Exactly. Another thing that I see here in the clinic a lot is that women second guess themselves so much. Oh my goodness. And then add to that the stress of healing your body, lack of sleep, and then your judgment is hormones. Your hormones is just going off. Yeah, I feel like the majority of my clients that are looking for breastfeeding support need to be troubleshooted, but also they need to be told, you got this normal. This is common.

SPEAKER_04: 6:09

A lot of therapy, honestly. I do. I feel like I'm more of a therapist sometimes. I definitely agree with that.

SPEAKER_00: 6:16

Yeah. How are you feeling about our breastfeeding rate here in Windsor and Essex County, which is at 16%?

SPEAKER_04: 6:24

Yes, I know. When you told me that, I was shocked. That to me seems very low, but I'm also coming from working in Detroit, um, which I originally worked in London. And I feel like when I was in London, everybody breastfed. It was very high. I don't know exactly what the rates are, but coming from working in Detroit and now supporting women in Windsor, I feel like as it is low, it is almost a little bit higher than from what I'm used to. But I do there's tons of barriers from the sociodical aspect of it and just the lack of support that we have to that number is so low. Like it could be and should be much higher.

SPEAKER_00: 7:06

Yeah. I heard something from one of my patients yesterday who delivered her baby last week, and she asked for a lactation consultant at our hospital, and there was no one on staff.

SPEAKER_04: 7:18

Yeah, I've heard that a lot of funding has been cut um in the lactation sport world, especially through the health unit. Um, it pains me because they're cutting all that kind of funding, and women still have no other resources to help get support.

SPEAKER_00: 7:35

Yeah. I think the lack of support is really devastating, first of all. And I feel like women are not like the majority of the population don't even know about the resources that are available. Not only paid support, but the free support, like the La Lache League, Andrea Cassidy, who's a midwife in Windsor and Essex County, who has a grant. Like those are all free resources that are available for anyone. I'm not saying that everybody's going to be comfortable with those resources, but those are the free resources. Plus all the paid lactation consultants that we have a decent amount for a town of this size. It's just that people are not aware of them. The majority of the population that I speak to and we discuss prenatal education and we talk about postpartum success, they've never looked into anything that supports.

SPEAKER_04: 8:28

And I think it's because it almost becomes a little too late. If we can do the prenatal part of it and educate prior to having a baby, then it would be more they would realize that they have the support and would they be more likely to reach out to people after baby comes.

SPEAKER_00: 8:44

So, what are we gonna do about that, Sam? Are we gonna start teaching classes?

SPEAKER_04: 8:49

Teaching classes, yes. Yes, prenatal classes, I think that's education.

SPEAKER_00: 8:54

Yes. Let's make that happen. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about some myths and misunderstandings about breastfeeding. And let's start with the question: what do you wish that most families really understood about breastfeeding before they actually begin?

SPEAKER_04: 9:11

I think coming from the NICU, this is my biggest way of teaching breastfeeding, is that it's not a one size fits all. It doesn't have to be one way or the highway. You can want to breastfeed, but you can also introduce a bottle, supplement, and it doesn't have to be right off the get-go of this is it has to be this way. Because I find when families are in that mentality, that's when it becomes stressful, they give up and it just doesn't work out for them.

SPEAKER_00: 9:41

So the mindset of I'm gonna try my best with breastfeeding, I'm gonna educate myself on it. And then when the struggle starts to happen, I'm gonna be okay with pivoting.

SPEAKER_04: 9:56

Exactly. Yes. Like we all want to have a plan, but we all have to realize plans always don't work out and we need to have backups, and that's okay. And especially what I teach parents too is that breastfeeding doesn't have to be completely established within those first few days. It's a learning process and it's something you have to work at. And in order for it to be successful, you need to be able to compromise and do different things. And as long as your baby's being fed and you're taking care of mom and baby, then it can, there's different paths you guys can take.

SPEAKER_00: 10:30

Yeah. I love that you said that you're learning because I think that's really important to talk about how breastfeeding is a learned skill.

SPEAKER_04: 10:38

Big time, yes, for mom and baby.

SPEAKER_00: 10:40

Yeah, we talk a lot about oh, breastfeeding is so natural.

SPEAKER_04: 10:43

Oh my gosh, that is something I want to debunk.

SPEAKER_00: 10:46

Yeah, exactly. Oh, sure, sure. Feeding your baby with your breast is natural, right?

SPEAKER_04: 10:51

That doesn't not everyone is supposed to be able to breastfeed. Not every woman can produce breast milk. And I think that's a mentality that we have to um people realize. Like it's such a hormonal factor, and there's a lot of things that need to align to have that perfect situation.

SPEAKER_00: 11:08

I heard you say a little bit in the question before this one that a lot of things can happen when your milk supply is being established. Talk about that a little bit because I don't think women fully understand that it can take weeks.

SPEAKER_04: 11:23

It can take so long. And that's what we can touch on later about like your newborn follow-up clinic appointment. It just boggles my mind that it takes at least five to seven days for your milk to come in. Whether it can change if you've had a C-section, it can change if your baby's early, it can change with there's so many factors that it may take longer. So when people think, oh, I'm my milk supply is not in yet, and then they stress, and then they're like, okay, I need to switch to this and that, it's just takes a long time to realize. And if they had the understanding that, okay, what is there, it can provide for my baby. Then once your milk comes in, it all falls in place.

SPEAKER_00: 12:07

So what you're saying is that it can take five to seven days. Some women are early, some women are a little bit later, but what you are producing in the beginning, the first few days, is sometimes enough for the baby.

SPEAKER_04: 12:20

Exactly. Like that colostrum has so many benefits, and truly that's all baby needs. Yes, there's different circumstances that you might need. It might not be enough if your baby is very small, if your baby is John, like there's so many other factors, but ultimately that little bit of colostrum goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00: 12:40

Yes. And I want you to talk about something that I like to teach my moms is that your milk supply sometimes doesn't get fully established where your body is, okay, I'm feeding one baby of this size. I always say six to eight weeks. Is that correct? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 13:00

Yes, totally. I just had a mom recently who was combo feeding, so breastfeeding and pumping, and she was getting so much milk in those first couple weeks. And then all of a sudden, month in, she's not pumping as much. My supply is dropping. I don't know what to do. And I said, No, your body's regulating. You're only supposed to be making that certain amount. You don't want such a big supply. So it's not that you're losing your supply, it's that your body is regulating and it just takes that long for it to so that's really important.

SPEAKER_00: 13:31

I like the word regulating. I think that's really important to talk about, right? Because these women often get told to pump right away to establish their milk supply, right? Yeah, and then what happens is exactly what you said. So now the body thinks that they're feeding two babies because the breast stimulates the body to make milk, and the pump being put to the breast stimulates the body. Exactly. And then they got their milk supply established, and then they stop pumping, and then mastitis happens.

SPEAKER_04: 14:05

Oh, yes. With that being said, too, like everyone and I totally get it. Everyone wants to have extra milk so dad can feed a bottle or their support person can feed the bottle. I'll be down for that too. But I need moms to understand consistency. So a lot of the times moms will be putting baby to breasts and then pumping, but they're pumping all willy-nilly. They're not really pumping after a feed. So then that's when I do see the mastitis come in and clog ducks come in because they'll pump once a day or they'll pump three times another day, and then your body is just doesn't understand what it's doing.

SPEAKER_00: 14:41

Interesting. I love that. So being consistent with your pumping, same as your breastfeeding. Yes, exactly. That helps me understand that a little bit more. All right, let's go on to the next question. And then we talked a little bit about myths and pieces of information that that we constantly have to explain the difference between and or debunk. Talk about a few of those. One of the things that we talked about is that breastfeeding is natural. We know that's we have to correct that every day. What else?

SPEAKER_04: 15:16

The I think what we talked about too is having that oversupply. Like everyone wants to have an oversupply, but that's not natural, and that's not what you want. You want to be able to produce just what your baby's taking. So if your baby's taking two ounces, when you pump, you want to have two ounces removed.

SPEAKER_02: 15:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 15:35

So I think everyone wants to like pump and have, oh, I would need the six to eight ounces or whatever, but your baby's only taking two ounces. So now your body is way overproducing. Yes. And then when it doesn't do that, people get upset because they think, oh, I'm losing my supply and what's wrong with me, and I'm an undersupplier.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

So you're saying that it's great if you get six to eight ounces, but also it can lead to feeling disappointed when you don't get six to eight ounces.

SPEAKER_04: 16:04

Exactly. And the comparison. Yes. People like to compare, right? To everybody. And we'll probably hit on this later social media.

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:13

But you gotta look everybody's journeys different, and everybody has their own, like they need to set themselves up for what they're doing. So if your baby is only eating two to three ounces, that's how much milk you should be producing. You can't really, it's not a textbook thing, right? Like it's more individually based. And I think people need to realize that it's individually based. And as much as we can teach you what the norms are and what you should be doing, it changes for every single person.

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

Yes, and it changes as your baby grows. Totally. Yes, yeah. One of the things that I like to debunk is that I have to pump to get my milk supply in.

SPEAKER_04: 16:55

Oh, yes, I know. And I've been trying to tell women too like when your milk does come in, they want to pump right because you're so engorged, but realistically you don't want to. So I encourage women to take their Tylenol and ibuprofen and ice and kind of get through those first few days of feeling uncomfortable before you start pumping off. Cause like you said, then you put baby on, then you pump, and now you're telling your body to produce way more. Yes. And then down the line, you're gonna have way more issues.

SPEAKER_00: 17:25

And then once you create that, once you tell your body that this engorged breast is what you need to feed your baby, that engorged breast is going to continue to come. Exactly. Yes. So engorging or engorgement is something too that people like there's so much different advice.

SPEAKER_04: 17:42

Oh, it is honestly, that's a great topic because yes, things have changed drastically in the lactation world with that. Mastitis and clogged ducts, everyone, I think there's a misconception with it. Ultimately, you're gonna get a clogged doctor mastitis from ineffective milk removal.

SPEAKER_02: 17:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 18:00

So it's not because you're producing too much or other things, but it's because that milk is not being removed. Okay. So realistically, you can treat your mastitis, you can pump, and everyone wants to unclog that duct, but it all stems down from why is the milk not being removed effectively, whether it's from the baby or whether it's from your pump. So you really need to look into okay, is my latch okay or is my pumping okay? Are my flanges the right size? Is my pump doing what it's supposed to be doing? Um, where I think a lot of people don't they want to treat it with the medication, which is great. Yes, but then you also need to go back and say, okay, why is this happening?

SPEAKER_00: 18:38

Yeah, and why does it continue to happen? Right. I find that if a mom has it once, you know, that it's possible that she's going to have it again. Yes. Yeah. So the other thing that I would like to debunk is that every single woman needs a breast pump. Oh. And you need not necessarily that every woman needs a breast pump, but don't even get me started on the hands-free breast pumps.

SPEAKER_04: 19:06

I literally wish those were never invented. I breastfed both of my children.

SPEAKER_00: 19:11

I loved my pump. I used a handheld manual pump, and I went back to work eight weeks with Lily Faye. And I breastfed her until she was 18 months. She got a bottle, and I pumped at work one breast at a time with a hand belt, and she slowly breastfed. So for me, it's not that I disagree with the hands-free or the double electric pump. Um I don't care. Whatever works for you, but yeah, women put these six and seven, eight hundred dollars for a pump. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_04: 19:44

Is that the pricing that I they can get up there? I don't know towards 800, but I definitely know it's hundreds of dollars. Yes. Yeah. And that's and then nowadays, too, they want more than one.

SPEAKER_00: 19:55

Yeah. And that sets moms who can't afford that. I can't afford that pump, so I can't breastfeed. Not every woman needs a breast pump. Also, you can release milk without a pump.

SPEAKER_04: 20:05

Totally, yes. I am on that page too. I will say I like moms to prepare to have the backup if they need it. But like you said, a handheld pump and that helps in a pinch, right? You don't need the whole bells and whistles. It is just something to have as a backup if you need it right away. But yes, not everyone needs to pump. And I encourage moms, especially in Canada with our maternity leaves, there's no reason to pump, of course. But like in hindsight, if your breastfeeding is going well, you don't need to pump. And that's a lot of added stress and time on your hands to set yourself up for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:47

In the first six weeks, technically, you shouldn't be pumping.

SPEAKER_04: 20:50

Totally. And everyone I touched on earlier, they're in the mindset, I want to have milk for my partner to help with a bottle. And I'm like, that's great, sure. But let's get your body established first.

SPEAKER_01: 21:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 21:01

And then we can talk about pumping once you're regulated.

SPEAKER_02: 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 21:05

And then once again, too, yeah, like I think social media has brought this in where everyone thinks they need to have the top line of a breast pump. And the wearable ones for me, they just, I just, you can't assess a mom's breast with them. You can't see if the flange is a right fit. Um, a lot of women just like putting them in their bras and calling it a day, which then their suction's not on, they're not lined up, and they're just forgot about, which just like breastfeeding, there's so many things that need to align to make sure that everything's working properly. And you need to be, I feel like hands-on and like supporting yourself through it in order for things to work out well. Um, so there is a lot of mastitis and clogduxine with those kind of pumps because it's not effectively removing the milk.

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

Oh, okay. That helps me. Like, I don't know a lot about them because obviously I am not a lactation consultant. So I can troubleshoot a lot of things, but I'm always more comfortable like saying when it comes to the pumping, guys.

SPEAKER_04: 22:21

So it's a lot of putting the pieces together to make sure everything works well. Um, and then a new thing too is which when I was breastfeeding, I had no idea, but your phalange size.

SPEAKER_01: 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 22:32

So these pumps come with these huge phalanges, which is usually a 21 and 24. But I'm finding when I'm measuring moms, we're getting like more the 17 to 19 range, even 15. So then that's an added price. So then you have to buy different phalanges, or a lot of pumps don't come with those phalanges and you have to buy inserts. Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 22:52

So then it's just more things you have to buy. So I did hear that that one brand of pump, when you buy it, you get a flange of a specific size, and that's the universal size that the company provides, and that it's almost never the right size. Right. Yeah. So I think that's really important to talk about. Talk about that a little bit more. When you're talking about the flange, you're talking about the piece that actually goes onto the breast.

SPEAKER_04: 23:19

So the piece that actually goes onto the breast, that I guess essentially would be mimicking a baby's mouth.

SPEAKER_02: 23:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 23:25

Um, so when with breastfeeding and latching, you want that baby to have that whole nipple in their mouth, which the whole nipple is not the areola, it's just your base of the nipple.

SPEAKER_01: 23:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 23:36

So when it comes to so just like breastfeeding, that whole baby needs to have that nipple in the mouth. So when it comes to the flange, you only want that nipple in the flange. So if it's too big, then the whole flange is carrying your areola and breast tissue in there and it's damaging all your breast tissue.

SPEAKER_02: 23:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 23:56

Or if it's too small, then your nipple is going to be squeezed into that phalange and it's just gonna get damaged and cracked, and then you're not effectively pulling out that milk.

SPEAKER_00: 24:07

So tell me about your favorite handheld pump.

SPEAKER_04: 24:11

To be honest, the only one I really do know of is the Medella one. And up until recently, I wasn't not that I wasn't a big fan of them, but I never really encouraged them. Because to me, it just, if you are on a pumping journey, um, to me, a double electric pump is what I would recommend just for time's sake. But I feel like maybe because of social media, the handheld pump is becoming one of the new standards. And it's just it is a quick, easy way to release that milk. But once again, too, it only comes with the one size. So you have to make sure that you get your proper sizing. And there's something a lot of women say that the suction is just a lot better that they find versus the um electric pumps.

SPEAKER_00: 24:58

So the handheld is a little more suction than the electric.

SPEAKER_04: 25:04

Like I said before, everyone is different. Yes. Um, but I've been hearing that some women find that it is more effective and has a stronger suction. You said with the double electric breast pumps, they're essentially the wall pumps, the ones you put into the wall, are gonna have a greater suction than ones that are like battery operated.

SPEAKER_00: 25:26

So I want to clear a little bit of that up. So you're saying that you do love the double pumps for anyone that's on a pumping journey. We're not talking about a woman who's at home for six months to a year. We're talking about a woman who is on a pumping journey for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_04: 25:44

Yeah, and is exclusively pumping. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 25:47

Then the double electric plug-in is what you favor. Yes. Yes, but that you're getting some feedback from the community that a handheld manual pump is providing a little more suction than the electric pumps in specific clients of yours.

SPEAKER_04: 26:05

Yes. And that's in the incidence where I guess a thing I've learned is if a baby's having trouble latching and the mom is very engorged, that's a reason why. When we're very engorged, the nipple protrudes too much and the baby has a hard time latching, which it's because I have too much milk. So I always encourage moms, if your baby's not latching and they've been latching perfectly for the last little bit, and you're engorged, then you might need to pump some off. So in that circumstance, just a handheld pump, because you're only looking to pump off just a little bit to feel that relief, and then relatch baby.

SPEAKER_00: 26:39

Um, so in those circumstances, so clear that up. The area is too firm. There's too much milk.

SPEAKER_04: 26:45

Too much milk, so you're too hard. Yeah. Essentially, he has a hard time latching onto your nipple. Yes. Because, say you've baby had a nice five-hour stretch at night and you wake up and you're really hard, and you're so now you're trying to put your baby on for relief. They're just losing their mind because they can't get on. Yeah. Think back to being like, okay, maybe I'm too engorged and I need to release a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:08

Which, like you said, you don't always need a pump to release. There's other ways of doing it. You can manually express.

SPEAKER_00: 27:14

Talk about that a little bit because I think that there's so much confusion. The haka is suggested, and then just like having those little shields, I don't even know what they're called. You just place it on one breast while you're feeding on the other and it collects.

SPEAKER_04: 27:30

So the haka essentially, and everyone loves it because they're like, oh, I'm getting more supply and stuff. But then you're tricking your body to thinking like a baby's on your breast. Yeah. And then you're just going to start overproducing. Now, the collection cups, those I can get with and are okay because you're not putting suction on your breast. And a lot of people will, if they have a great supply, they'll just leak continuously while baby's on the other side. So the collection, yeah, the collection ones are good. And then that can give you a little bit of a backup to have. Um, but the hawka essentially, you that creates that suction. So now you're just tricking your body into producing more than you actually need.

SPEAKER_00: 28:11

Yeah, you're triggering your body. Yes. Thinking that you have a baby latch.

SPEAKER_04: 28:15

Right. To needing to relieve yourself. Sure. You can put the hawka on and get like a couple MLs released so that you can latch your baby. But other than that, yeah, I don't recommend them.

SPEAKER_00: 28:27

Okay. And what about the silver nipple shields? How are you feeling about those?

SPEAKER_04: 28:32

A lot of controversy. They're new to me in my world of lactation. Okay. And from what I have in my research, I've found they've done more harm than good.

SPEAKER_02: 28:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 28:44

I don't honestly know a whole lot about them. Haven't used them enough to really give 100% feedback on them. Okay. But I know that from what I've done in my education, that they can be actually more harmful than good.

SPEAKER_02: 29:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 29:02

So if so they are something that everyone wants to get right now. And I think maybe that's a social media thing. Um, and I always warn moms like, let's not do that yet. Let's see if you eventually even need them and then try other ways of healing your nipples first before we go there. Because they are expensive too.

SPEAKER_00: 29:21

Yeah. I do think that happens a lot. I remember when I was pregnant with my daughter, a friend of mine who had already had three children. She's okay, let's go to Toys R Us or Babies R Us at that time, because remember, there was no boutique, right?

SPEAKER_04: 29:35

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:36

Four years ago. And she took me to, and she's, I'm like, what about this? You don't need that. You don't need that. Take that off. You don't need that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:43

It was there's so many things nowadays that everyone wants to have on hand. And then you're like, but why?

SPEAKER_00: 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:50

It's almost like you buy those thinking, okay, my nipples are going to be damaged. You don't know that's gonna happen. No.

SPEAKER_00: 29:56

Yeah. And also it stopped manifesting.

SPEAKER_04: 29:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 29:59

Right. Yeah.

unknown: 30:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 30:01

See, like you said though, you could spend money on a lactation consultant versus buying all these things to help yourself because of the damage.

SPEAKER_00: 30:08

Instead of buying all these things that are to prevent like damage and or troubleshoot damage, invest in a lactation consultant. Exactly. I tell people all the time, you can put my service on your registry.

SPEAKER_04: 30:22

I know what I made a post about that on my Instagram and I didn't get any poll from it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:28

Sometimes it's about who's seeing it, right? I definitely ask them. Okay. So if you could design the perfect support system for new parents from pregnancy to postpartum for breastfeeding, what would that look like?

SPEAKER_04: 30:44

Oh, so much more support than there is. So definitely a prenatal education session.

SPEAKER_02: 30:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 30:50

Um, definitely one, more the merrier. That would ultimately be great. Um, I do the one-on-one. Breastfeeding classes are great, but I find just when I'm one-on-one with clients, there's questions that they might not ask in a breastfeeding group. We can get out the pump, we can actually put it on them and use it. And it's just a little more personable. So definitely that prenatal education is huge. And then the follow-up appointments, I would love to see them more than just one. Typically, they have me come right when baby's born, their milk's not in yet. So we're working on a lot of just latching and positioning. And I get there, and for some people, not everybody, everything goes great. They get on and everything is great when I get there, even though like it might have been two days of they're like, their baby's not latching, I don't know what's wrong. I get there. And I honestly, sometimes with the positioning, I just tweak a couple little things, and baby is able to get on and latches perfectly. And they're like, they weren't doing this before. Thank you so much. But then I leave and then they fall into the same kind of troubles. So I would love to have like where you have a package of say five visits. So you have your prenatal visit. I could come see you after birth, either in the hospital or at home. And then again, once your milk is in, and then it's it doesn't have to be like a barrier of, oh, I have to pay you again, or I don't know when should I come because I want to see you three weeks from now when we're dealing with other things. Um, so yeah, so in hindsight or in the grand scheme of it all, it would be amazing if they had like a five visit package that they'd be able to use me whenever, and it's not like a strict timeline of when I could see them.

SPEAKER_00: 32:38

It's a one and done visit.

SPEAKER_04: 32:40

Yes, and yeah, that's hard. It ultimately you can't totally help someone on a breastfeeding journey just by seeing them one time.

SPEAKER_00: 32:47

Yeah, it's definitely something that needs a little more support than that. I love the idea of a package because then they're not concerned about okay, I don't know if I should text her. Like when we do a doula contract, they don't care how many times they message me. Exactly. They don't care how many times they visit, they send me a text message post-part on my says it in your contract. So pay for the service up front or when payment plans, whatever we've decided on. And then no one's afraid to send a message. Dad's not afraid to send a message, grandma's not afraid to send a message. They know that it's covered. I really like that idea. I really think we should work on that. Okay, I want to talk a little bit more about hospital policies and the discharge timelines, first of all, and what we're seeing in the hospitals that are causing some difficulty. Like we talked about earlier, there's not a lot of funding for lactation consultants at the hospital. Another thing that I have noticed as well is that moms say to me, when they're breastfeeding, like when the baby comes, if they don't have a doula, then they're being taught by one nurse, then they go to the postpartum floor and they're being taught by another nurse or maybe two, and then they go back to the maternal newborn clinic, and then they're being taught something else. And and how is that kind of impacting the breastfeeding success?

SPEAKER_04: 34:10

That is honestly, it's huge because and it is, and I always tell my clients this too is like I'm teaching you based off what I've been educated, but also what I feel works best. You're gonna hear something from somebody else that might be different, but you have to stay true to what you want to do and decide for yourself what works best for you. And it breastfeeding is hard because, like I said, it's not a one size fits all. So there's different ways of doing things, which does make it hard when you're looking for support and looking for someone to teach you because there's people do things differently. So it is, you have to take it as you want and do what fits for you. Um, as for the support in the hospital, I wish nurses would get more training in breastfeeding, um, because a lot of times they come in as a nurse and they might have no breastfeeding um knowledge at all. Um, so I think if we started with our main line of nurses having more support, then obviously they could help the moms. And then when lactation is available, they could obviously come see them too.

SPEAKER_01: 35:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 35:19

Um yeah, it's a little, I not too sure because I'm in the states how it is in Canada. It's just based off what I've heard. And I hear both sides. I hear, oh my God, I had a fabulous experience, but more times not. It's the other side of the spectrum where um I didn't know what I was doing, no one told me what I had to do, I had no support. And it really infuriates me because, like these women, and that's where I try and promote the prenatal so that they can have an understanding of what to do before they get into these situations. Um, but we expect, right? When we're in the hospital, you expect that you're gonna have that support and have someone to help you.

SPEAKER_00: 36:05

Yeah. One of the things I've really seen over the 20 years of being a doula is that when we first started doula care and there was breastfeeding support classes that I did, we were taught to latch baby, like actually handle the breasts. It felt fine for some moms. One of the girls that I used to work with at my old clinic, I found pictures of her birth the other day. I have more pictures of her birth than I have of my own second kid. In one of the first pictures of them with the baby, I'm holding the baby and I'm like, why was I holding the baby? I asked her, I sent her a text and she's because I couldn't hold the baby. There's other pictures where I'm handling her breast and the baby's head, and I'm doing all of the latching, can be really beneficial for moms who have had a cesarean section and don't have full control over their bodies. But a lot of times that ends up with disappointment because when they go to do it themselves next time, they can't. And I am learning that a lot of doulas are still being taught that. And I'm like, wait a second. Yeah, we can't be a part of the problem here. Right.

SPEAKER_04: 37:10

We need to teach them and to be able to do it themselves. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 37:14

So I still do that. I still will say, listen, this is you know what I'm doing. I'm gonna unlatch and now you're gonna try.

SPEAKER_04: 37:22

Yeah. Then I also feel like the time to teach them is not in those first few hours after baby's born because there's so much going on, and your mind is just not in the mindset of learning and being taught how to do something. Yeah. So, like we said, if we can do the prenatal teaching and educate them on how to do it, and then troubleshoot after when everyone's settled in and things are in a much more comfortable environment.

SPEAKER_00: 37:52

I love that, Sam. I'm gonna add that to my doula package, but you have to do prenatal education, breastfeeding support in your prenatal education class or in your prenatal education stuff with me. So adding either an early visit andor adding you to that early visit.

SPEAKER_04: 38:09

Because then it's I've heard from some other people that I work with that these moms are coming to them in the dual earned therapy world and they're like so upset because breastfeeding's not working. And she'll be like, Did you reach out to prenatal support? And they'd be like, No. It's like, okay, then you can't get upset that these things are happening if you're not going to be proactive.

SPEAKER_00: 38:31

Yes. Yeah, I think that is the problem. So all feelings are valid. They're upset because they didn't know, right? Because I get that on my table all the time. A lot of the clients that come to me for doula services are second-time moms. I actually don't see a lot of first-time moms. 100%, me too. The second time moms are like, I've learned so much and I know that this is a village kind of thing. Yeah. So I feel like it's okay to be upset, but fully understanding that if you didn't set yourself up for success, the biggest contributor to breastfeeding success is actually being educated.

SPEAKER_01: 39:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 39:10

Yes. What kind of prenatal education do you believe makes the biggest difference in helping families meet their feeding goals?

SPEAKER_04: 39:19

Realistic expectations. I feel like you can take a prenatal breastfeeding class and be taught textbook how to do it, but you need to be given realistic expectations of this may happen. And if this happens, then you can do this. And if it's not working out right away, then you have other alternatives to get you through. And we can work at it on a later when you're out of the hospital and you're not in so much pain or your hormones aren't going crazy. Um, that you have other options.

SPEAKER_00: 39:53

So when you say realistic expectations, are we talking about realistic expectations for this family specifically? Because I recently had a mom who did not breastfeed her first two children. And then her third time she wanted to try breastfeeding. But when she got home, she realized how much work it was. And then she had these two toddlers. Is that what you're talking about? Looking at their picture and saying, Hey, I just want to educate you on the amount of work that it takes to establish your supply.

SPEAKER_04: 40:30

Totally. I warn moms that this is the hardest thing that they're gonna have to do. Like being pregnant and delivering your baby is hard, but breastfeeding is very hard.

SPEAKER_01: 40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 40:39

So you have to be in that mindset that it's gonna be hard. You're gonna have to work for it, and it's a learning curve. Yeah. Um, so giving them that to begin with, hopefully they're not going to give up when it gets hard.

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 40:53

Um, but also the real expectation of okay, my baby might might not latch right away on day one. So what am I supposed to do? So I encourage as long as your baby's fed, we can work at latching at any point.

SPEAKER_03: 41:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 41:06

But then I once again, too, if your baby's not latching, then of course, yes, you need to pump because you need to get your breast stimulated for your milk to come in. So just that expectation that it's not all rainbows and sunshines, and you're not sometimes the baby's not going to come out and just breast crawl all the way to the breast, which they teach is the natural way of doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

And that's okay because that doesn't happen all the time. I want to talk a little bit about when Samantha's saying that breastfeeding is hard. She's not saying that everybody finds it hard. She's saying that it can be hard. It can be hard. And it's a learning curve. So, not that everybody's going to have breastfeeding challenges. Some people don't have any. Some people don't have slides and they don't have lat tissues, and it happens and it's beautiful and it's perfect. That is the exception to the rule. The majority of us have some form of difficulty with one and or two of three of those things, whether that's learning how to pump, a milk supply, latching, tongue tie, fatigue, any of those things.

SPEAKER_04: 42:12

And what's what one person might not have trouble with, and another person might not. Everyone's journey is so different that we can't just, it's not a one thing for everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 42:23

Let's talk about a few things that moms can troubleshoot. Let's talk about the top five things that can set them up for success. Number one being find support.

SPEAKER_04: 42:35

Yes, definitely. Have your support, have your education.

SPEAKER_00: 42:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 42:39

And then positioning. Positioning is my biggest. If I could give you one piece of advice or teach you one thing to do, it'd be positioning with baby. And that is that I find will put like the pieces of the puzzle with your latching together. Um, so learning that, and it's not, you don't have to be in one position. So the baby can be, there's several different positions, and then making sure you're comfortable before you bring baby to breast. So you need to make sure that you are comfortable, you are set up with all your pillows, and then you're gonna go to space before starting that process.

SPEAKER_00: 43:15

So that's number two. Also, I want to point out there that I have women who can do one position on one side, and then they absolutely cannot do that. 100%, yes.

SPEAKER_04: 43:26

And babies too, though. Babies love one side more than another. So it's there's so many different variables to it.

SPEAKER_00: 43:33

Yes, they have a favor, they have a favorite side. So number two is positioning. What would you say is number three? The latch?

SPEAKER_04: 43:41

The latch is, yes, because that is gonna be your greatest success into breastfeeding. And a lot of the times, because when I breastfed my daughter, I had already been teaching and stuff, but I didn't realize my daughter was not latched on properly and I had no support because everyone thought I knew what I was doing, which in hindsight, you look back, and when it comes to you, you're like so. Knowing about the perfect latch, I shouldn't say perfect because it doesn't have to be latch, but an effective latch is huge. Let's talk about it in regards. Really, like I said earlier, that baby needs to have their whole mouth on that nipple.

SPEAKER_01: 44:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 44:17

So you do not the biggest thing I see is women want to put the nipple into the baby's mouth. You always want to bring baby to you.

SPEAKER_02: 44:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 44:25

And you want to make sure baby has that big open mouth before bringing them to your nipple. Okay. Because a lot of the times they'll just put the nipple in the mouth and it'll just suckle on it. Yep. So making sure baby has a big open mouth and getting that whole nipple in their mouth is a good latch. And then also making sure that their lips are flanged up and lip is flange down. So that would be your ultimate perfect latch.

SPEAKER_00: 44:49

Yeah. So another word for flange up and flange down is curled up and curled down like ducked lips. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so we talked about the latch, and we're talking about that the whole nipple is in, and we're talking about the curled lips down and up. What about a sound and or something like that?

SPEAKER_04: 45:09

So a lot of the times mom wants to know how much baby's getting, which isn't realistic because you can't measure that. So what I say is you need to be watching baby's kind of chin and neck area to look for those swallows and then listening because you'll hear the noise of when a baby swallows.

SPEAKER_01: 45:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 45:29

So when a baby's just pacifying and suckling on your breast, you can just see a motion of like a slow suck. But when they're actually transferring that milk, it's an elongated suck. And you can really see them pulling that milk out and swallowing it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:44

Yeah. So it's more you got to watch for the swallowing, is what I say. Yes. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 45:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:49

So that was number three, the latch. What would be number four? Top five tips. Top five tips. Positioning, get support, latch.

SPEAKER_04: 45:58

Latch. Honestly, letting go of the timing things and recording things and just focusing on your baby and you, not being not timing how long baby was on each. We didn't really go over that, but that's a huge one. Yes. Um, and just really looking at your baby and letting your baby guide you.

SPEAKER_00: 46:20

Yes. Let baby tell you everything that you need to know. Yes. Yes. I love that. I do think that women get caught up in the timing.

SPEAKER_04: 46:28

And I I am the apps nowadays. Everyone wants to be on an app and record how long they're doing things. And then I guess my fifth one would be not being so scheduled. Yeah. That's the other thing. So we tell moms, like, hey, you need to feed every two to three hours. But go based off your baby. Don't look at the time and be like, oh, it's been two hours. We need to wake baby up and feed them. Mind you, there's circumstances where yes, you need to do that. Yes. But really watch your baby and go off the cues of your baby.

SPEAKER_00: 46:58

Yeah. I like to tell my new parents until your milk supply comes in, if you want to follow a schedule, go ahead because you're learning about the baby. If you want to do that, and especially during daylight hours where there's two of you caring for baby, but during nighttime, that's really challenging and difficult to do. So really watching what your baby is telling you. Exactly. Besides for medical reasons. We want to make that very clear that for medical reasons, we're following your primary care physicians or your midwife's.

SPEAKER_04: 47:30

It's just like I said, every situation is different. So you can't compare yourself to your friends and your family on what they did for breastfeeding. It all has to be your own journey, your own path, and what makes you happy.

SPEAKER_00: 47:44

And what works for your baby. Your baby is peeing and pooping and is sleeping and doing well. Chances are your breastfeeding is going okay.

SPEAKER_04: 47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:54

Or that the baby's getting enough milk, but that baby is getting enough.

SPEAKER_04: 47:57

Getting what they need. Yes. Yep. Always go off your cues. So if your baby has their wet diapers and their output, there's no signs of dehydration and they're on like the right, like I guess you wouldn't know that they're gaining weight yet, but they're doing all those signs and you are hearing that milk transfer.

SPEAKER_00: 48:15

Yes. Um, then you know things are going well. Yeah, that baby is getting nourishment. We touched on social media a little bit, and we talked about it more than one time actually, but I do want to emphasize that social media is devastating for women who have a problem postpartum, and that's where they go for their one of the things I see in my clinic is that women go to social media for troubleshooting, and then all of a sudden you've tricked the algorithm into sending you everything on that. I promise you, you can Google anything and you will find proof of it on social media. Totally. So it just feeds that insecurity. And instead choose an expert, and it doesn't have to be someone who you're paying, but a friend who successfully breastfed or an expert that you're paying if you want to, and just forget the extra noise. Right. I see the biggest struggle with breastfeeding in my clinic and practice with type A moms. 100% want to control everything, and no controlling.

SPEAKER_04: 49:30

Sometimes I will straight up tell a mom, I'm like, if you cannot let this go or let so and this and that, I don't think this is the best path for you. And I'll be straight up with them because it's just gonna drive you into insanity and it's not worth it.

SPEAKER_00: 49:44

No, I think some of those moms need to be reminded like here, your baby's okay. If we want to find uh one plus one equals two, we can figure that out for you, but that is not going to show up in every single way. So you can count the poops, you can count the peas, you can count the feeds all you want, but if you're not able to let like those things tell you everything that you need if you are a type A person, then what is the point? Exactly. Able to let your baby tell you that's the whole point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 50:17

And my biggest thing too, I don't think I brought this up yet. Mom's mental health, my biggest concern with baby being fed. So mom's mental health and baby being fed are my two biggest concerns. Whether it happens one way or the other, that's what I tell them to focus on. Because if you are not in a good mental health space, you cannot take care of your baby.

SPEAKER_03: 50:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 50:38

So if breastfeeding or if pumping or whatever bottle feeding becomes too stressful, then you need to create your own journey of what's going to make you happy. Do what's good for you, not what you think is the norm or think you're supposed to be doing social media and what people are saying.

SPEAKER_00: 50:56

Yeah, exactly. I want to touch on a little bit how women don't fully understand that what goes in your mouth is so impactful for your breastfeeding. Oh, your mouth. When I I will challenge them sometimes, I'll say, Oh, do you think you're drinking the water? They're like, I drink so much water. I'm like, okay, I want you to calculate it for three days and send me a screenshot. Yes. And then when I tell them they need half their body weight, they're like, oh wait, I changed my mind. I'm like, okay, we're gonna fix that first and we're gonna fix your nutrition.

SPEAKER_01: 51:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 51:28

And then we're gonna talk about what's going on with your milk stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 51:31

Now a lot of the complaints I get is my baby is fussy, my baby is gassy. And then we dive into, okay, what are you eating? And all these things are like, oh, I didn't even think of that.

SPEAKER_00: 51:41

Yes. So would you go diving into that a little bit deeper? Do you really feel that certain foods bother certain children?

SPEAKER_04: 51:50

Oh, a hundred percent. I do. I do, but I also on the other side of that, I think it's everyone wants to cut out dairy right away.

SPEAKER_01: 51:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 51:58

Because of babies being gassy and fussy, which yes, there's circumstances where that is true, but I don't necessarily think every gassy, fussy baby needs to cut out dairy. Like everyone's really quick to do that. Yeah, a lot of the times I tell moms they're babies, they're gonna be fussy, they're gonna be gassy. That's just the natural process of having a baby. So we can eliminate all these things, but in hindsight, in the end of it all, it's your baby's being a baby. And I think we've gotten away from that as well. And I don't know what it's contributed to, but they're babies. Yeah, I love babies are gonna cry, babies are gonna be fussy, they're babies.

SPEAKER_00: 52:40

Babies are gonna your baby is being a baby, right? They're being totally normal, yeah. Like they're being a baby, also, their digestive systems never worked before. This is right, right? Like 100%. Their body is figuring it out. I really love that. Your baby being a baby. So, would you say with social media that we're living in a time where too much information?

SPEAKER_04: 53:04

Oh, too much information and too many cooks in the kitchen almost sometimes, right? It's like I said, you're hearing all these things from different people. And I shouldn't say too many cooks in the kitchen because all the support is great, but when you seek out support from too many different people, then everyone's different opinions, it just gets more frustrating.

SPEAKER_00: 53:24

Yes, this worked for me. This is don't go to Facebook. This is my promise, do not go to the Facebook mama's group for breastfeeding. Oh, yes, no. Do it. Nobody's allowed to do it. Call me first. Right. Okay. Are there any must-have tools that you do recommend when it comes to breastfeeding?

SPEAKER_04: 53:45

Like we touched on before, is less is more. I feel like don't go overhand with buying all these gizmos and gadgets right away because you don't know what's going to end up happening. If you had to buy something, your prenatal education, that is something I would say is a must versus going out and buying all the pumps and bottles and this and that. Um, I would say having, which might be controversial, is having some bottles and formula on hand just for that first little bit, because I find if you have that backup of allowing your baby to get a bottle and a little bit of formula supplement, it takes the pressure on establishing everything right away.

SPEAKER_00: 54:29

So I'm gonna challenge you so much on that.

SPEAKER_04: 54:32

Yeah, I knew it was coming because this is and this I have to explain myself, but go.

SPEAKER_00: 54:37

No, I'm not challenging in that way. I feel that women are they do that a lot of times, and I think that can ease that fear, which I do agree with. But I really like to set women up with their colostrum storage if it's possible, which we haven't talked about. And I think that's one of the things that your OBGYN, they don't tell you that you can do it at as early as you want. I have women who are having milk at 30, like colostrum at 30.

SPEAKER_04: 55:08

Totally. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:09

I am very pro start pumping or not pumping, expressing the colostrum as early as you can, and then not pumping because we don't want to stimulate labor contractions, which Samantha just said, but then the OBGYN doesn't tell you until 38, and then we're that you're allowed to, and I'm like, no way, 37 weeks, go for it. Right, totally, yeah, go for it. And if a baby comes early at 37 weeks, that's permissible. Right. Chances are it's not going to put you into labor, although it can. It can, yeah. Yeah. So another thing that I have been really doing with my clients recently is if they are too stressed andor they're not able to get any colostrum, they're like, what do I do? I'm like, okay, first of all, just take a breath. We do not need to have extra colostrum. But if that is something that you feel that you need, then we can talk about having a couple of bottles of formula. And/or are you comfortable asking a friend for donor milk? For donor milk. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 56:14

I am all about everyone thinks I get so many people saying, oh, it's so gross. And I'm like, I am a fanatic when it comes to milk, breast milk. Like, you spill breast milk, you clean that up with a towel and make use of it some other way. So I feel like no milk should go unused in any aspect. So I am a big promoter for reaching out to people and asking. There's a lot of milk bank um options out there.

SPEAKER_00: 56:41

Okay. I see I that's something that I am not sure of. Like I don't usually promote that. I ask them to do their research, but I always ask them to ask a friend, ask a sister if they have an extra bag of milk. And even at the hospital, a couple of my clients have found donor milk in the community from friends, whatever. And interesting enough, when they go to the hospital, it gives them a hard time. They can't not let you. You have no choice, they won't help you do it. Devastating. And one of my C-section mamas, she got it from actually somebody in the community whose mom, I think the baby might have been two months old. And the nurses said, We can't help you with that because we don't know where the milk came from. Which in hindsight, I fully respect that part of it. They're protecting their license. Right. They created doubt in the mom that was in the room. Right. And the mom was confident enough where she said, Okay, so you're telling me that I should trust this can more than this bag of donor milk. Right. And I love that the mom said that because I felt like that is one of the biggest things when it comes to something that we probably should move into is advocacy.

SPEAKER_04: 57:53

Yes. Like you touched on that, because I try and tell parents, you need to speak up and you need to be your voice. A lot of moms, which I feel so bad, they don't know any better. They don't so once again, with getting the education you need, and we can help you and tell you like you are allowed to ask for this, you're allowed to do this and speak up for yourself. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 58:15

And also, this is your baby. This is the nurse's baby. When you go home, she don't give a shit about you. Right. She's not worried about if you got your milk supply in, andor I'm not saying all nurses are like that. Some of them are very adamant about they do take their jobs home, but the majority of them just move on to the next patient. 100%.

SPEAKER_04: 58:35

That's where I think the there's the lack of support there, right? Because they don't care if you get your baby latched on right away, or they don't, it's they are there for, and I hate to say this because I'm a nurse as well, but I get it. It's you are you got to get all your stuff done in a certain amount of time, and you don't always have time to lend out that extra set of hands to help um get mom set up.

SPEAKER_00: 58:57

I agree. I feel like they have their job that they have to do and it's right in a checklist. And I totally agree with that, they don't have enough time and they don't have extra time for breastfeeding. And it's not shame on them, it's shame on the hospital one. Totally. But I feel like when it comes to making sure if you really want to be able to take a breath for breastfeeding, try as hard as you can to find a supply of milk, whether that's your own colostrum, someone else's donor milk, or having a couple bottles of formula on hand. And that will take that pressure off of there's no other choice.

SPEAKER_04: 59:35

And I don't want moms to think just because you gave your baby five ml, 10 mls of formula here, that they're not gonna want to take your breast milk or they're not gonna be able to latch. That's the other thing we didn't really touch on is like nipple confusion. I do not believe coming from my NICU world of nipple confusion, there's a lot of moms will be like, I don't want them to get a bottle because then they're not gonna take my breasts. And a lot of the times is do you want your baby fed or do you want your baby to not take what they're taking? And if a baby takes a bottle, they will take a nipple. It might be harder, yes, and something you have to work on. Right. But it's you really have to outweigh your, you know, what you really want. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:23

So you're saying that yes, giving a bottle before the six weeks can create difficulty with solely breastfeeding. But in that moment, doing that is something that you can fix.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:36

Yes, totally. And you got to outweigh your options. Are you going to become so stressed because your baby's not nippling and where it's just in hindsight going to cause more issues? Or are you going to give your baby what they need? And then we can work on bringing baby back to breasts and making sure they take your nipple. Okay. I love that you clarified that because right away I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:59

If you that I do preach that at the hospital though, do whatever they want you to do at the hospital. When you get home, I can help you figure out a whole different ballgame.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:08

Yeah. And a lot of controversy too. For me, you might not agree with me, but Fed is best. Please just your baby needs to get fed, whether it's one way or the highway, it doesn't matter. Making sure your baby is getting what they need and being fed. We can work on everything after that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:26

I do agree with Fed is best. Yeah. Because I see too many moms who are not willing to pivot from I only want to breastfeed. And then they have all of the interventions.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:38

Fed is absolutely the best. My job is to support whatever works for you. Exactly. I don't care if you don't choose the breastfeed. I have lots of moms that don't breastfeed at all, babies born, bottle in the mouth, and we're tying down the breasts, right? Whatever she needs, whatever. So I definitely feel that every situation brings a problem and or a situation where bottle feeding is the right answer. And I think every situation needs to be addressed in a way exactly the mother.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:15

And just to touch on, too, I want to make point that pumping is breastfeeding. If you are giving your baby breast milk, you are still breastfeeding. A lot of women don't see it like that. It doesn't matter. So they'll be like, I'm not breastfeeding, I'm just pumping. Pumping is a full-time job, everything's a full-time job, but pumping is hard. Pumping is so hard.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:34

I think pumping is harder than breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:37

It is a lot of work and it's exhausting. So I kudos to those moms who pump for their whole journey. And it's amazing that they withstand that and continue to do that for them.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:49

Yeah, I think that it's very hard. And yeah, kudos to any mom that tries it for two days or two. Exactly. Yeah. I hear that in the clinic yesterday, even. They're like, I'm two months in. This is the longest that I've ever breastfed. I know it's not enough. But I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:04

Why are we saying it's not enough? Any little bit that you do, any drop that you give your baby is benefiting them. And you need to be proud of yourself for every little bit that you do. Yeah. I've had so many friends and stuff that are having babies lately and they're like, oh, I don't think I'm gonna breastfeed, or I don't think I'm gonna pump. I just not me. And I just I educate them and I talk with them. And literally nine times out of 10, they surprise themselves and they're just like, oh my God, I am so happy. I can't believe we did this. And look at me. And even if it is only for six weeks, six months, it doesn't matter how long you do it. It's just that you have accomplished something and that you really surprised yourself because you didn't think you were gonna be able to do it and look at it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:49

Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. Okay, I want to finish up with tell me one message that you wish every expecting parent listening today, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:04

This is a good one. I feel like there's so many things I could say, but you're not alone. There's support out there for everybody. And whether you can afford it or not, still reach out to us. There's ways around things that we can help you, whether it's just message of affirmation, whether it's encouraging to keep going. There's a lot of support out there and we can help you. And taking care of yourself, doing what you want to do and what makes you happy, not what a textbook tells you or social media is telling you or family and friends are telling you, what you want to do and what's going to make you happy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:42

I love that. So I want to make sure that everybody heard Sam. She said that you're not alone and that a lot of times if you just reach out to an expert in our field, that you might be able to get access to their resources andor their education in a way that works for you. It's never one size fits all when it comes to finances. We have a few ways to make it work for you. And the picture that you're seeing in everybody else's world is not your world. It is not your world. So we want to paint the picture that works for you. And that's really important to remember. Sam, tell everyone how they can get in touch with you, how they can find out more about you, what's your social media, your website.

SPEAKER_04: 1:05:34

So I have my Instagram, which is and my own business, which is Sweet Beginnings Lactation. Um, you can find me on Instagram there and you can contact me. And then I will be working with Deborah soon. Yes. So if you want to reach out to her, we can also get in contact.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:52

That's Samantha Pinsino, the NICU nurse who is now an international board certified lactation consultant. You can find her at Sweet Beginnings and you can find her now at Pelvic Love. Yay!

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:04

Yay! Awesome. Thank you, Deborah. This was so fun. Talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:10

Okay, let's talk soon.