0:05

Hello, and thank you for joining the Private Investigator Experience Podcast. I'm your host, Phil Little. On this channel, we talk about the life and cases of a private investigator, what it's really like, some of the things we do, the techniques we use, the little secrets that we don't want to share everything, but we'll share some things with you. And also, because of my background in international work, I started out in Lebanon, and Israel back in the 70s. That's where I was exposed to terrorism and and all the issues around that. So that prompted my international work. And from that, my first book hostile intent talks about the story of my search for terrorism. And today we have a guest on that's someone I know pretty well. And from time to time, we have guests that are in the law enforcement, legal field or private investigative field. And this man today is unique, he started out real young fact. He started going with out with me on cases when he was. I don't know, 9 years old or so, and we have some good stories about that. He went on to become quite an investigator at his teens and into college. I remember the old timers that wanted to come to me one day and ask if he could go out. With an investigator, they went out and these old timers would tell me later, Hey, Wayne could go out with us anytime. You know, he's, he's an asset to have with us. Then he went on to a law school at George Washington university and worked during the summer at the Senate foreign relations committee and at the justice department, tracking terrorist money, traveled out around the world. And he has a passion for people and helping people. Maybe we'll talk about some of his journeys into Russia and out in other parts of the world. Today I welcome my son, Wayne Little, my oldest son. Wayne, thank you for joining me.

Wayne: 1:59

My pleasure. Thank you,

Philip: 2:01

I thought a lot about, as we get older, we start thinking about memories and down that lane that we went on a long time ago. I kind of forget when was your first real memory? Of me being a private. I remember when I was thinking about this. I remember one time I can vividly remember right now We were going I was in the trucking business. I had a trucking business After law enforcement the purple mac truck And I think that was it and we were going down cajon pass and I was going really slow because I didn't want to Get fired up and you were with me. I think you were maybe seven, eight. I, but I remember that I was going down to take a load to Los Angeles. Do you remember that Ride I

Wayne: 2:46

don't remember that ride. I remember I have memories of ride with You. I don't remember if that's, I have a memory of that, but my first memory of you doing investigative work. was before you were officially an investigator. And this was when you had the trucking company what was the name of that highway that you had it off of? It's 66, but I forgot the official name of it was something else. But anyways but someone, someone broke into the shop. someone stole a bunch of stuff for you. And I remember you took me. I think Wade was with me and mom on a Sunday because you got a lead because you found tracks of an unusual vehicle. That had had obviously been used as part of this heist. It was like a jeep vehicle or something. And somehow you would match those tracks or trace that to a potential suspect. It was out in Hesperia or out in that kind of area. So that would be south of where we were. And I remember it might even been on a Sunday. But I remember a day you said, hey, Hey, We're gonna go check this out and you went out to do a little surveillance and a little check on that. You're looking for that truck to find it. I was just fascinated by it. I remember being so aware I was as I was sitting in the car. It wasn't like, I mean, I was aware that we were doing something that was you know, trying to find out who the criminal was. And rather than being like, Oh my gosh, what's going to happen, I was, I was excited. It was like, Oh, I, it seemed like all my senses were, were a lit and, and I was, I was just soaking it in and was looking at everything and, and I'll never forget that. So that, I had to have been, I don't know maybe seven during that period that I said, eight, maybe. Yeah. Well, at least, well, maybe six, seven or eight, because. It was a 10 when we moved to L. A.

Philip: 4:28

Yeah, because I had my suspicions on that. And who did the break in, and who maybe was connected to it. And I didn't really, because this was a young black guy that worked for me. I was, he was really close. He was like a family. And I got my suspicion that was somebody that knew him, something came up and I don't know what it was, but and then those tracks. Yeah. But we never did solve that one. That's one we didn't solve. But I remember out on those though, but I had my three 57 Magnum six inch service revolver with me just, you know, just in case. But yeah, I'd forgotten.

Wayne: 5:03

I think it's maybe time to open up the cold cases. Maybe we need to go back to that and you know, and, and, and reinvestigate it.

Philip: 5:11

Yeah, we'll go up there. Maybe those tracks are still outside that big old building. It might still be sitting there. Yeah, the last time I was by there some years ago, it was still standing there, you know, so yeah, those were some days that I prefer not to go back to the trucking business. So, but yeah, I, I remember I don't you probably do remember some of these, but during that time we had a Repo license that was big. And in that day, you could do a lot of things that you couldn't do today. And so we did a lot of repossession as part of our detective agency. And there were some times I took you out with me. One of the times we were in South Los Angeles and we were looking, I can't remember, it was I think it was a Volkswagen. I can't remember what it was we were looking for. Somehow we discovered that it was under a clothesline in the back of the house. And I remember we got that thing out on the street, and I guess I had a tow truck there, and about the time that we started hooking stuff, crowds started coming from everywhere, and people, what's going on? And I remember driving away from there, the truck, and you were in the car with me, and I thought, What am I doing taking a kid out on something like this, but there were there were some interesting times with with Repo, so you have any memories of any of those?

Wayne: 6:37

Well, well, listen, it's a good thing children's services wasn't active as active back then as they are today Because I think I would have been taken but but I do remember I do remember like I remember one time We went to the beach. I thought what a cool thing We were going to the beach and was I don't know if it was newport or it was someplace I hadn't been to I thought was really cool folks And then I realized, I found out we were really out there because you were looking for a parakeet yellow Porsche that had been stolen and you were after that car. And so we decided, you decided to make it a family day that we were going to go hang out in this area. And part of the fun was, let's see if we can find this car. And I don't remember, I don't remember if you ever did, but I remember that was part of it. I remember one time. I was super happy because you repoed a, a Mustang, like a gt. It was white and blue and it was like the newest model. So this is probably back in, in, I don't know, 78 or something. And I remember you said, Hey, let's go for a ride. So I hopped in with you and we went down this neighborhood across the, the area where I didn't spend much time, but as you drove around there, I saw some friends and we stopped and I said hi to'em. And Becky, Becky Hill, who had a crush on saw me. And then later on, I heard that Oh, Wayne stopped by with his dad and their Porsche Carrera, or, you know, their, their, their Lamborghini or some, some fancy car they thought it was. And I was, I was, I was more popular with Becky for a few days after that. Not much longer, but at least for those few days, she thought I was something special. So I, I'll never forget the Mustang. That was a Lamborghini for a day. That was fun.

Philip: 8:06

Well, a couple of, I remember the one I remember vividly. I can't I don't remember if you were with me on that. I think you were We picked up a car up in silmar and we were south of silmar there san fernando And the, it was, a woman, I think, right? Jumped in. The tow truck was taken off. She jumped in her car as they were going down the street with us behind him. She went out the window, up on the hood, down on the hitch and tried, was trying to disconnect the car. And I called the police in San Fernando and, and they came out and met us and we got her off, but that was a wild one. that woman was pretty, gutsy. And then a couple others, we were had two or three Mercedes. And a couple other cars they were down in the san fernando valley there down off of ventura someplace. They were in a building, but it was a mafia deal And they had them down two or three stories down underground parking and there was always guys around there and whatever So our job we was we got him out. I but that was harry because We we found the time when there wasn't anybody around and we were able to get him out But, you know, those were the days that were, like a Wild West because you could do so many things that, we had all kinds of scams we would do, you know, to people and, and some would were gullible and others wanted to take you on. So that was a good old days.

Wayne: 9:44

Well, yeah. And I remember even when I did process serving and. and nowadays you see it all the time on TV shows or whatever where they, they deliver flowers or whatever. They have cute little ways of doing it, I remember always trying to come up with cute little ways of trying to, get to where you can get to the person, but then also making it where you could, at least they got some flowers or chocolates out of the deal. I remember too, I enjoyed the undercover stuff because as a kid, I remember a couple of times you had undercover operations at large companies, and I remember a trucking company once and because I was young, I could just go out in a pair of jeans and a T shirt and hang out and sit on a corner somewhere. And just kind of watch or take a ball and throw it against the thing. and I guess actually drug cartels probably do this now better than anyone, but because I was a young kid, I could kind of see things and kind of get information over and and just hang out and even talk to people. That the older, more experienced agents couldn't do. And I remember that was kind of a, a thing I enjoyed about being a being who I was at the age I was doing what I was doing. And listen for me, I don't know if it's because of this or it's just part of my personality, but I love the puzzle. I love to find it wasn't that I wanted to, you know, I didn't want to take someone's car. I didn't want to get someone in trouble. I didn't want to bust somebody, but for me, it was about solving the puzzle of, trying to do that, do the right thing in a way that was creative and finding the answers, and that's what I always enjoyed. So for me, when I was a teenager, getting more involved in some of those cases, it became really fascinating. I

Philip: 11:16

was looking somehow I came across some film here recently and I was looking at things and it was the one we We were doing part of a pilot on on hollywood boulevard. Ollie was there. He was playing this, you know, snitch guy that was going to whatever and we were out on hollywood boulevard and talking to people and doing the high five and And all that but what was it that you were a really good investigator at your in your teams in some of those cases You And you had a, I guess a natural instinct, but what was it made you have those? Was it something that you were born with or just thought process? But the old timers guys with a lot of years experience and police or federal work or whatever, you know, they would have just been, okay, I'll just let's go home. But you, somehow you had a, something about you that you came up with very creative things.

Wayne: 12:12

I just had a conversation with Nikki not too long ago. Nikki my sister and, she's a very much younger than I, but very, successful business. She's doing all kinds of great things, but she was talking to me about, The difficulty with taking a good employee or an employee and trying to make them a manager and with an employee, you kind of tell the employee what to do. And they do it with a manager. You need to be able to look ahead. You need to be able to think about even if something's going well, how can it go better? What are the problems that are going to happen because of what's going on here? So it was that it was that mindset. It is. It's a little different that you need to be thinking ahead and creatively. So, for me. As I mentioned, I'm all about the puzzle. I love the puzzles. I still to this day love puzzles. So that motivates me. But then what I love about puzzles is thinking out of the box of thinking creatively. And I see that. For me, even the other day, I was playing pickleball, like, 100 million other people were and a ranger came over. It was early in the morning. There were only, there were 4 of us there, but 1 of the young ladies had a dog and the ranger came over to say, and it's kind of a new park. And she was a younger person and kind of seemed like she enjoyed her authority, but she informed us. And this dog was just a beautiful dog just sat there the whole time was lovely that we couldn't have the dog on the pickleball courts. And oh, by the way, you've got to have a leash and a leash has got to be in someone's hand the whole time. Well, the young lady whose dog it was became a little bit obstinate. It was like, what's your problem? But I was like, ma'am, I understand. I understand there are rules, man. That's what that's kind of a tough job you have and I understand it. Let's talk. And so I came up with all kinds of scenarios. I asked for leniency. I just, worked it where, to me, it was like the puzzle. It was like, okay, how can I take this person who wants to exert authority. And kind of show her, badge to where I can get her on my side. I can get her. So that in itself became kind of a puzzle. So I think in some ways, it may have something to do with wiring, but I find it interesting to get down to the nitty gritty of something, try to solve it. And then try to figure out how to take it somewhere else, how to move it into another box or another category.

Philip: 14:21

because there were a lot of cases you did some things on, but one that we've talked about before, it's the surveilance once we want to next was back in the day before the security lines and all security stuff at the airports, but we would always go with a bag ready to travel and cash or going to use really credit cards that much back then. And you, and Ollie were on that surveillance. Take us through that and and where you wound up and what happened. well, Ollie, who's my best friend and, I, had several great interesting times. And then one time we were following a, guy through Los Angeles, and I, I realized I couldn't make the turn. And so I just said, Ollie, get out. He goes, what? Get out, run after that car. And, and I had a Trans Am at the time, and Ollie looks at me like I'm crazy, but he gets out. Fortunately, he was a track athlete. He runs after the car. I, meanwhile, go up the street, I make a right, I make another right, and I see the car, it was a BMW, going right by me. And so I stopped in the street, I kind of pulled a little bit of a skid, and I just counted down from ten. Ten. Because I knew if I took longer than 10 seconds, I was going to have to go and catch him later. And I had the door open. And Ollie, right when I got to like three, he pops in. And then I spun the car around. We caught up to him. So Ollie was used to kind of being creative. So on this case you're talking about, it was a business owner. It was a husband and wife. The wife is sure that something's going wrong. And So she said, Hey, listen, I need to find out for the sake of my family. My business was happening. So the thought was, is that he was going to Palm Springs and something was going on there. That's what he was telling her. So we had planned on maybe being gone for the night, but we didn't know really what was what was really happening. We thought it might be local as well. He was just making making up the story. Well, when we when we we follow it was 5 in the morning. We set up our surveillance. And so we rolled out. It was probably maybe about 530 or six and we start going down the 405. I thought, well, if he's going to Palm Springs, he should have taken another route. And then we passed the one on one, we passed the, 10 and it's like, wow, where's he going? And away goes the airport. And you're right, at that time we had little PSA tickets where you pre filled, where you just fill them in, they were already bought, and you just filled it in. So fortunately, I don't, I had those, I, had them. And he takes us right into into the LAX. And it's funny because meanwhile, Ollie and I are trying to coordinate what we're gonna do and how we're doing it, and, and when we get up, we have to be near him to find out where he's flying to. So we were literally, like, right behind him at the ticket counter, and we hear him say Las Vegas, So when he leaves, we're right there. We say Las Vegas and I remember he kind of, you know, he looked around some of you may have seen this. So anyways, but we're still following him. We get up there and and then we're we're behind him a little bit. I go to the phone because I got to call you to say or somebody at the office to say, hey, listen, it turns out we're going to Vegas. He comes to the phone right next to me. I remember being turned at him like this, and then I just turned like this, so he wouldn't even be able to see my face, and I kind of ended the call. And then later He he, oh, we get on the plane and he's, he's literally sitting in the row in front of us and catted corners. So it's like we have this vision there. So it's like, oh, great. Well, you know, great investigators we are. We're constantly being seen by him. And then when you get to Las Vegas airport, we're getting off. And as we're getting off, we, for some reason, I guess we checked back for, I don't know why we had to do that or we did. It was stupid. But meanwhile, I'm saying to Ollie, Hey, listen, Ollie, listen, you get the bag. I'm going to where he's going to, and I'll come back and get you. And and of course you didn't have cell phones then, so you had to do this kind of stuff. And so as I'm talking to Oli like this, I look and he, the guy turns around and looks right at us. And so immediately Oli and I just go like this, we're just going, you know, just like, like the biggest tell ever that something's wrong. And so he goes He goes out to the cab circle. He looks behind him. So I know I can't go out there. So he gets into a cab. As soon as I can see that he got in the cab, I kind of, I run out so I can see the cab number. But as the cab is going around, it goes, it went in a circle. So he came back by me again and he's looking right at me. He's just looking at me, but I'm just standing there like, okay, I'm just getting a cab. And he goes. But I got the cab Here's what happened. I jump into the cab, I jump into the cab that I'm in front of, and I did that famous line that all PIs dream of saying at least once in their life, follow that cab. And the guy, the guy was, he just turned off his car. The guy looked at me and was like, that cab? Okay. The car wouldn't start. The car wouldn't start. It was like, great. And then, and I found out later, I ended up leaving my camera in that car that the guy was super honest and I didn't find him get the camera. So, I get out of the car. But remember, I got the cab number. So, I went back to get Ollie. I said, Ollie, we're stuck. So, I wait for the cab to come back. I remember the old guy. He was an older guy, like from Chicago, back east or something. He had that feel. He pulls up and I said, oh, thank goodness you're back. Hey, listen, I was supposed to follow my friend with him, with me to, to where he's going. He gave me the address, but I realized I don't have the address on me, and he thinks I do, and I have no way of getting a hold of him. He was the one you took in the cabbie, a bigger guy, black shirt, black hair, and then he said, ah, no, I think you got the wrong guy. I think you got the wrong guy. Well, I knew I didn't. So I took out from my pocket some money. I don't know what I had, 40 or 50 bucks, which back then it was something, I guess. I don't know. And I said, Are you sure? Because I was positive. It was, Oh, you big guy, black shirt, black, black pants. Oh, yeah, I'll take you there. So he jumped in the gap and he takes us to where he's at. And it turned out he had a, I don't know if he had another wife, but he had this woman and some kids, this whole little family he was taking care of there that was unknown to his wife. And he was taking business proceeds from it. So I was happy to uncover that. And then Ollie and I ended up renting a little car. And so for three days, we were on surveillance on him there, or two days, at least two days, maybe three days, maybe the whole weekend. And Ollie and I were sweating like a dog. This was summer. So we were sweating like a dog in this little compact car, the AC trying to run as long as we can. And I remember on the way back to the airport, we got everything done. We got pictures. We got all the information. We got statements, all that stuff. We rushed back to get a flight. And I remember we pulled into 7 Eleven near the airport to get something to drink. And the car wouldn't start because that poor little car had been through everything. So we just, we managed to somehow get the car rental company to say, Hey, we're leaving it here. The keys are here. And we, we ended up getting a ride to the airport and came home. So that was, that was our story of, of the unexpected flights on that case.

Phil: 21:05

Well, and most of my old timers would have probably, when they lost him at the airport, would have probably said, Oh, well, Phil, man, we had a problem. You know, the guy shook us at the airport. I don't know what to do. But that little creative thing. Now, I think a lot of that, it's probably personality. And instinct but also wanting to do a good job and like you say thinking out of the box How can we solve this situation? Even though it looks impossible and for so many as investigators Anyone those of you watching and I want to thank we've had a whole bunch of subscribers and people added to the channel Thank you. And if you are want to be investigator please do Take these traits that Wayne's talking about. be smart, think, get creative, be bold, and think out of the box. And you will, have some good investigative skills that can be put to use.

Wayne: 22:03

Well, one of the important things I learned, and that was, and it was really the tone you set in the business, and this goes for any kind of service business, particularly, heck, any, any business. is that your focus was on, on pleasing the customer, not just doing the job, but doing the job in a way where, where our obligation was to make the customer Satisfied or maybe even happy. I don't know. I'm trying to distinguish between the two, but there was certainly the sense of not just doing the job, not just justifying your time sheet, but it was like, I have an obligation to my customer to really do something well here. And it was amazing to me. I mean, I caught on to this. I probably went to high school, the more I was around you guys and especially you about the obligation you felt that almost that solemn trust and we call it legally a fiduciary duty almost that you have to a client to say, I'm going to do it. And the other good thing about you is you knew about a bill properly where for me, I was always wanting to do too much. It was part of my. You know, I can get obsessive when it comes to solving the puzzle. So, I'll put in 100 hours on a case I can only build 10 for, and that's not a good way to keep a business going, but that's another story. The second thing we were talking about investigators. So, listen, I used to train some investigators at the L. A. Sheriff's Department, and I did some classes. We also had a training session at at West Coast for investigators. One thing I would always focus on, and this is where a lot of people make mistakes in their own investigations, whether it's for their own Use or for or professional, they solve for the solution. They either believe or they want to believe. In other words, when you go into a case, I used to call this the John just I and I used to say to the detectives, listen, the worst thing you can do for me. And I was speaking as a prosecutor. The worst thing you can do for me is to investigate a case and investigate it in a way that you think is going to help me. I just need to know the facts. Because if you, if you look at it and say, oh, this is going to help Wayne, let me do this, or no, this won't help Wayne, this isn't important. Then what's going to happen is, when I get in a trial, the other side has their own investigators. And believe me, they're not going to miss those things that you're going to miss because you're thinking through the prism of how, what do I want? What's going to help me? So, being clear eyed and, and I do this now, I have a client right now and sometimes he hates it when I bring in the other side, but I have to say, listen, if you don't understand the facts that are exist, you won't be able to contend with the reality of what it is. And the worst thing you can have for an attorney is to be in trial or in court. And you think that you know the answers to something and especially across examination and it turns out there's a whole other set of facts that your investigative team thought, well, that's not going to help us. That's not important. We don't want to hear it.

Phil: 25:07

My, my theory point of it was to the investigators look for every question and not only just raise a question, but answer it, give a, give an answer to it. And that will, help us find the right solution because sometimes the solutions what the client would want, but you have to go with the fact and those of you that might be watching or listening After law school, Wayne spent about six years at L. A. D. A.'s office as a prosecutor and did very well there with trying cases and that was a great, great experience. And, as you went from high school Now, was it between high school and the first year of law school that you went to England when you were in England? Or was that after the first year of law school?

Wayne: 25:51

it was after the first year of law school, I think. Was that before? No, that was before law school. that was before law school. And was the summer from college to the law school. And it was an amazing, It was with an organization called Youth of the Mission. And which is an amazing group, which is going out and just loving on people, spreading the gospel, letting people know about how God can impact their lives and their communities. it was a wonderful experience. We literally went around the world got to smuggle Bibles into Russia. It was Russia at the time Soviet Union, actually. And got to be in Berlin. That was the summer that the wall fell. And also in Korea, just before the Olympics, I was there the week before the Olympics started and, it was an amazing time. And I really recommend parents, young people encourage your kids, young people, try to find ways to travel. And I don't mean travel where you're going to resort. People tell me they go to Mexico all the time. I say, where have you been? They say, oh, Cancun, Mazatlan. I said, no, you haven't been to Mexico. You took a nice vacation in a place called Mexico, but you haven't been to Mexico. And so I really encourage you to try to find ways to travel and to experience the people and the culture. I, many Europeans, especially the Australians, they're, they really have this down. And I think it is good because not only does it give you a sense of others, but it helps. To give you a sense of yourself. And you see yourself in different contexts. I, went to law school in DC. That's the only school I applied to out of California, simply because, well, my uncle went there. And so that's kind of why I initially applied. But the reason why I chose it was I realized being in Washington, DC, away from everything that I was grounded in. And I was a pretty good kid. I was a leader in my youth group. I was doing all this stuff. I seemed to be a really responsible kid. But you know what? A lot of that I did because I thought I was supposed to. I was one of those guys that wanted to make people happy and to fulfill what I thought was a pressure that was on me, which was enormous because I was supposed to be this, this great guy with all this potential. Well, going away which I did in England and I did in law school, I did on this trip. It was great because I went to places people didn't know who Wayne Little was. Quite frankly, I didn't care. And I got to experience and test and just live in a way to really determine who am I, who do I want to be? What am I about? And so guys, I really recommend that if you could do it, do it.

Phil: 28:17

Well, and you also spent some months in England and you work what with a barrister? Was it at where you went to old Bailey?

Wayne: 28:25

I was assigned to a solicitor actually in the East end, but I was working. I would then interface with the barristers. Because that's who the solicitors deal essentially with, the clients and the, the different needs. The barristers are the ones who come to, we'll go to the court. They're the ones with the wigs, the black robes. Yeah. And and it was fascinating. I also got to school. I went to school there at the LSE for a bit and, and London school of economics. And was an amazing time. Wow. I mean, again, the chance to, especially as a student to be able to grow or go abroad and to be in an atmosphere. Where your job is to learn and you're with other students who are equally anxious, nervous, wondering what's going on, but also open to getting to know each other. I remember 1 night. It was 2 in the morning. I ended up in the dorm room of there are several people there, but I remember there are 2 women in particular. Once father had been killed by Idi Amin because he was a general. And then the other one had led a coup in her African country or something. And these aren't people I meet in Northridge, in the San Francisco Valley. You know, and so, and to be able to talk to them and have conversations and to hear their perspective on stuff. That was a wonderful, wonderful experience.

Phil: 29:38

Well, just the experience of looking at really where our laws came from, it came out of out of England and, and having that experience at a court system. I also, I remember you had maybe a little leisure time once in a while over weekends down through Switzerland, up in the Alps and riding the train. And yeah, you found time to hit those slopes. I think too, did you?

Wayne: 30:01

Actually, I owe that to you guys because I remember I had, I think it was spring break coming up and I thought, Oh man, what am I going to do? I, what's going on, what should I do? I didn't know for sure. And you guys said, well, Wayne, you like to ski. Why don't you go ski? I was like, what? Where do you ski in England? And, I don't know if you guys suggested it or whatever, but it's like, well, Switzerland, you're in Europe. And when you think about it, it took, I don't know, it was an hour and a half flight or whatever. And I, yet you're passing over three countries and an ocean and it's just, it's just in our American mind. We don't think of, of that proximity to all these different kinds of places. And I ended up going, I landed in Geneva. Made my way to a train that was going to take me to Verbier and then Zermatt. But I remember I got on this train and it went well until about nine o'clock at night or eight o'clock at night, whatever it was, and then it just stopped. And I, I heard the engines go off, but I was, and all I could see, I looked around, we were in this little village, and it appeared to only have like one hotel, one maybe restaurant, and one church. up in the hills and I'm like, excuse me, what's going on? And, and, and they managed to tell me in broken English, we're done. See you tomorrow morning. So they were taking the night off. So I guess the train stops and the next morning I'm supposed to come. But I'm like, okay, what do I do now? And so I just, I walked out of the station and I see this, what appeared to be a hotel. I walk in, I remember it was, it was very nice, a nice little hotel. I remember the person behind The counter I start talking to and and they were speaking French, I believe, and I didn't know French well enough to communicate at all. And but I don't know why it was complicated because obviously it's a hotel. Obviously, the train just came in and stopped and obviously I need a place to stay. But maybe, maybe that wasn't making sense, but we were going nowhere in terms of finding me a place to stay. I mean, there was no, I just, I was, it was frustrating trying to communicate. And then down the stairs comes a guy and he comes around and he speaks English. He says, hey, do you need some help? I said, yeah, please. I'm trying to, i just, I don't know, please help. And he said, I gotcha. So he said, he translated it. I said, we, we, we, we he gives him a room, I paid for it. And the guy says, oh, so where are you from? He said California. He goes, Oh me too. Well, where from California? Oh, from a Northridge. Oh, I'm from Burbank. Let's go have dinner. So it was, it was kind of cool that even you know, halfway around the world, you're meeting people that that are from your neighborhood. And he actually treated me to dinner and it was a wonderful time. I got good night's sleep. I woke up in the morning and made my rest of the way to just a fantastic wonderful trip. We got to Zermatt and memorable, times there. It was wonderful.

Phil: 32:44

Well, I I remember early on you were four or five, you decided you were going to be an attorney and you followed through on that. What, do you have some vivid memories that pop up of law school that were, you know, Maybe transitional moments for you or were important, more important than others. Of course, the whole thing of you went there to learn, get a law degree, which you got. But what was law school like for you?

Wayne: 33:17

Well the first thing about law school, it is voluminous. It is a lot of work. It's not a I tell people all the time, it's not a matter of being smart, it's a matter of being organized and able to process work, and one thing I found was, is that students from the East Coast seem to be better prepared for that than myself, certainly, and then some of us on the West Coast, where, like, we were more interested in learning. They were more interested in, how do I prepare for the final? In fact, I had some of my friends, they took off the last 10 days of classes, because they were just going over old exams, old finals. I didn't even know those were, and it turns out they were in the library. What are you talking about? You can go over old exams. I mean, they were much more strategic. So the first thing I learned is that in class, I mean, I'm a verbal guy. I'm answering the questions. Oh, professor, let me you know, Socratic method. I love let's dig into this. But what I found was it was a quiet, young lady that was over there that never say anything. There was in a library every day, organizing her material, working hard looking at different aspects, listening to all of us big talkers that they were the ones who were excelling because they managed to find the secret. So sometimes I tell people all the time, don't be impressed by people that seem to have it together and all the answers are big talkers because we all have our strengths and weaknesses. The key is. to find out what your strength is and to go with it and then to try to minimize your weaknesses and such that they don't hurt you. So that was a, that was an interesting lesson. I think for me it's interesting. I had Rudy Giuliani came to give a talk at our school at the time. I think, I don't even know if he'd been mayor yet. I, I think he was U. S., he was a U. S. attorney.

Phil: 34:59

He was U. S. attorney, I think.

Wayne: 35:01

He came and gave a talk and I remember going up to him. I remember saying to him a question that a typical wide eyed young, student is going to say, and again, I, was certainly, the reason why I was attracted to law as early as I was is because word Two reasons. One, I'd somehow adopted this idea that attorneys were for the downtrod, that, you could help people. And that has always been something, I think it's in our family, quite frankly. I think that both sides of my family, you and mom, you both had a, a lineage and a heritage. A legacy of giving and serving, whether it was in ministry or, grandpa little, just doing people's lawns when they needed it or, or always there to help or, helping build a church or all that stuff. both sides of the family definitely have that. So I said something to'em, the fact of I said something about how public service was something I really appreciated because because of the sense of worth. I don't mean to say anything negative about but the response he gave me was almost a little bit like, Hey, wake up, kid, you know, you need to get your head out of the clouds and I don't know if it was quite even that constructive, but I kind of, that's what I took away from the message that. that it's good to have your dreams. It's good to want to help people. And it's good to have this sense of, of, wow, I can use this to, to benefit, but you know what? There's the reality of, you gotta take care of business. You've got to pay the bills. And but also I think, unfortunately with, with Rudy, who had done, who obviously is a mayor, certainly as a U S attorney, he did some great things as mayor, he was America's mayor. But I think at some point, you have to be careful that you don't start chasing down the wrong roads or valuing things out of whack because things can happen and I'm not here to say yay or nay to his legacy, but obviously his life hasn't kind of progressed in a way that I'm sure he's happy with. But, I'll never forget that. Made some great friends in law school. I think, I think I tell people all the time, college and postgraduate work should be about. experience and mentorship and relationships. And and so, grab as much experience as you can. And I got to, like you said, work with you with Justice Department. I got to work on Capitol Hill and the Center for Relations Committee. I got to do some amazing things, which to this day still impact me and I still draw on.

Phil: 37:25

we were talking earlier about wanting to do the best for a client. Part of it for me was, I really enjoyed and maybe that was because I grew up with a lot of praise in my family because I was a good little kid and was doing all kinds of stuff. I appreciated more a client saying, wow, what a fabulous job you guys did. Or We had a strike force in, up in San Francisco. We did lots of strikes, but and one of'em was a big beat Elli or oh, the sausage company now, what's the name there? Yeah. And he decided to go over about two or three o'clock in the morning and check on things was going on. And we had a command post there with about a hundred people. And he called me the next day and say, Phil, I'm really impressed. All your people were doing everything they were supposed to be doing, in the middle of the night. Well, that meant more to me. Our client is saying, wow, you gave me such peace of mind. Did the money. and I didn't like to hear a negative thing. I didn't like to hear complaints and that's what drove me a lot. I didn't want to have to try to answer your guys screwed up. And of course we had some things along. We weren't perfect, but man, we really worked hard. And I think. If anyone's wanting to enter the investigative field, you need personal integrity that service to the client is more important than the fees you make. Yes, you need the fees. You need to know how to collect them to stay in business. But if you do the rest of really serving the client, you're going to be doing something that most aren't doing. So you're going to stand out. And everybody are going to think you're really something and good at what you do. And the, the other thing that I have found, and I found this out early on with my biblical worldview. And yes, I happen to believe in the Bible. I happen to believe in God. And I happen to believe that he cares about me and he takes care of me. There was so many times as a young investigator. I didn't have the answers. I didn't have many answers even though I knew some things about a case but time and time again when I would be up a stump on an interrogation not knowing what to ask or I would just be stumped and I learned that I would just silently say God help me I I don't know what to say And then it was always really good to sit there in silence and let the suspect kind of vibrate their throat and get a little nervous and whatever. But invariably it would drop in, why don't you ask this? And time and time again, that would break the case wide open. So as I've gone out around the world and I'm trying to use my biblical worldview, as I look at situations that are going on in the Middle East, I have a great affinity for that. Area, because that's where I started in my first visit there in 1976. I think it was and getting exposed to the PLO and terrorism in Southern Lebanon and seeing what the Israelis were up against and seeing I was there when I saw biblical type situations with a few Israelis, you know, stopping an onslaught or an overwhelming enemy. So I learned that God was still alive and well, and. I we haven't really probably talked about this much, Wayne, but I believe that with what we see happening in the Middle East right now, what we see going on and the violence and the reason I talk about International crime and events because they ultimately spin back here and as you saw from the Israeli disaster attacked and massacre in October the 7th. Well, it wasn't long before it was here on the streets and demonstration and crime and violence and, and antisemitism exploding. So what happens in other parts of the world does affect us here in the U. S. and we need to be aware. And our viewers and listeners need to become their own investigator. And if I could leave anything with people that watch our channel is Find out the facts for yourself big amount. Don't accept what anybody says Well take what I say check it out. See if i'm see if i'm saying and telling the truth. I see In time events and others. What's smarter than I am are saying the same thing as we look at what's going on right now in the Middle East and how that could affect us here at home. What do you see, Wayne, as you look out around the world now with what's going on and and even what's happened in the United States here over the last 4 years. Of course, we got to change coming up now, but.

Wayne: 42:15

wow, there's a lot, a lot to talk about there. Well, I do want to say relative to the, the Middle East. I was you know, it's, it's well, let me, let me go back to this. But what I see happening now, it's interesting because I think that the worst thing that could happen to any civilization, Any community, any family is for there to be dissension and a lack of communication. And I think that sometimes, And I believe there's an enemy. I believe the enemy is at work, and I believe the enemy specializes in dissension and miscommunication. Has he miscommunicated with Eve, God's character and intent? Has he brought dissension even, I'm sure, between Eve and Adam, and Adam decided he'd just better get along with the program with Eve and go ahead and eat the apple. Those are classic traits. I I think that while the arguments. To me that I see go on now in the United States are very clear and and I see the dangers in certain in certain political theories and thoughts and and actions and I see this whole idea. you can see the lack of a transcription. Of a, a kind of a godless nature in some of the political viewpoints of some of the people, particularly, I'll just say, on the left is I'm not saying that they are godless or the right is, necessarily God fearing. And what I'm saying is, that the political theory is godless because it doesn't value people. it values the collective consciousness of right and wrong, as opposed to the idea that there is right and wrong, and there's a God of love, and there, are repercussions for sin. I mean, all that stuff, which is what we were built on, the Judeo Christian ethic, is contrary to that. So I see that, but here's what I also see, and I encourage my Christian brothers and sisters. To remember that this is not just a battle for the political shifting in America. It's, it's a battle for America. And it's a battle, not just for America, but for the world. We're called to the world. We're called to be a light and to be life and to be a resource to the world. And I would just, I would just one thing I was going to say earlier about the Middle East. I think sometimes we need to admit. We need to be okay with not knowing for sure. We need to be okay with just saying, wow, I don't have all the information. I'm going to sit this way. I'm going to sit back and just take it in and try to learn more. I think in our culture, we become obsessed with our gut instinct being right and obsessed with having to know the answer and acting on that before really having a sense of what the answer is. And I would encourage the church. All I know is one thing we serve. The master and Lord Jesus Christ and and we are about the father's plan of redemption and we may win a political argument, but if we have failed to be a light and a point of love to a world that is so desperately in need of that, and it is dying because of the lack of it, then we have lost the war. And so I personally find it a struggle to balance this sense of, keeping the avenues of communication and love open and still figuring out where to fight and how to fight for those things. that keep America strong. If someone attacked my family, I wouldn't say simply, Oh God, it must be your will. I'm just going to sit back and let it happen. Of course not. I'm going to protect and fight for my family. And as it goes with this country, we do need to stand up and fight for it. However, the way that we're going to fight and the way we're going to stand up is not the way the world is not the way that the world would stand up and fight. We need to be able to be people that move in wisdom and in prayer and in love. One thing I've tried to do with my kids. Especially since they become older teenagers and adults. Because by then they know everything anyways. You're not going to really teach them anything too. but what I, and I've been fortunate in this I wanted to make sure that I'm the guy they turn to when they have a problem. That I'm the guy that they think, man, what am I going to do? Listen, I can go to dad. I know dad will be, he may not be happy with what I got myself into, but I know he won't judge me. I know he loves me and I'm there for him. How would it be? If these radical, zealot, crazy people on the left. Woke up one day and realized they'd been wrong and thought, Oh my gosh, I need to go talk to somebody. I'm going to go talk to Wayne Little. I know he's a, he doesn't think politically of me, but you know what? I know he loves me. I know he's someone I can talk to. And, and, and quite frankly, I don't know how, I don't know what the balance is in every life. I know that I admire some guys who are out there who are fighting the fight, who are standing up and who are wise politically and articulate in espousing certain, I'm more conservative, my ideology, but I'm a lover of people. I'm a, I want to solve problems. I want to make things right for all people. But I also know that there's some people that even out of their sense of wanting to help and, and to bring God's justice. can sometimes make it more difficult for God to reach them because of how they're coming across. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I think it's, I think it's a key time for the church to determine, are we Republicans, Democrats, or are we lovers and followers of Jesus Christ and the Father? And, and I think that I think that I opt for the latter and I'll let him figure out all that other stuff as we, as we move along.

Phil: 48:01

I listened to several powerful voices that I've come to Admire and trust and learn from him. One of the pastor back in Tennessee, Alan Jackson, it's interesting. I was sharing this the other night. I was leading a men's group here and churches today. The world has invaded the churches. That's what's happened. Not the church invading the world. And so many pastors of large churches, large organizations say, well I don't want to offend anyone. You know, half of my people here, I might think they'll leave me if I tell the truth, if I preach the word, really the whole word of God. Well, and there's several examples I can make, but this one, you know, Pastor Alan relate to him because he grew up on a farm in Missouri and, and I grew up on a farm. He talks about being raised in a barn, taking care of animals and all that. So he's just a down to earth guy and he calls his church just this little, my little church here, but it's like 20, 000 members now, but he calls it like it is. He's calling people out. He talks about politics. He talks about the purpose of a Christ follower and what they should be living out. They should be standing up against the evil, not just saying, well, no, we'll just stay here in our little church and whatever happens out there happens. We can't do anything about it. And, and he's made the statement, which I think is like, he said, guys. It's not who we elect somebody different and get more politicians in he said our country isn't going to change Until we get our dinner tables back in order. We get our homes back in order Of godly principles teaching our children teaching and living out the gospel in front of them Then he said we're going to find we're going to have different people. We're putting in office that and he talks about this What you said he said this is not a republican or democrat They said look at the, look at the the party platforms. What is a party platform? Which is the one, none of them are perfect, but which is the one that's closest to biblical principles that follow the biblical things as well as this things like close borders and, and respecting people and not using Law enforcement as a vehicle.

Wayne: 50:21

it's exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's where demagoguery really starts is by its personality driven. And let, let me just say to dad. I still agree with that. let me say this, that if you want to end abortions, start affecting the situation. If those women are in so that they see it in the same moral sense as you, that's a sure way. I mean, yeah, we can elect judges. We can do politicians, but you really want to read. You want to change a society and reach people, figure out how to take women who are getting pregnant at a young age and figure out a way to help them learn to live their life. In a way where it can still be fruitful to not feel like that they can't go on if their only options is if you want to end that. Let's figure out ways to bring, and I, you and I have talked about this before. I think the church in the 80s and 90s made a huge mistake with the gay lesbian lifestyle. Not a lifestyle, but how to communicate with gay lesbians. Because the whole message was hate the sin, love the sinner. But you know what? The only thing that came out was we hated the sin. and now I just heard a message two weeks ago last week. Two weeks ago, from a person who had been an atheist, he hated Christians because of the perception that they hated him. He was an atheist. It was that, could argue was so articulate. And you know what? God saved him and now he is a celibate, single person that God is working through and having impact. and this gets back to, again, being the person that people turn to. If you tell somebody, Hey, listen, I love you, but I hate your sin. And by the way, don't bother coming to my church. And listen, if you're going to, if you're going to dress like that, you're going to talk like that. I don't want you around my children because it may infect my children. If that's your attitude towards people, how do you expect to be the one that they come to, to say, Oh my God, please, I'm lost. I need help. How is that going to happen? So I, I'm excited to be in a church in a place and to have a sense in my life where, listen, I'm a sinner. Make no mistake about it. I'm not looking down my nose at anybody and I need people that I can turn to for help, but I want to be a person. that regardless of what situation you're in, you're going, listen, I need to go. and listen, this happened to me. One of the biggest choice of my life was I was on a a triathlon team and it was mainly kids from the west people from the west side. I was in my forties. All these guys were in their twenties and thirties from the west side. A quarter of them were gay lesbian. I don't know if there was a Christian among them, maybe one or two. But it was amazing for me to be part of this group and I love the leader of this group who was a leader of the gay lesbian club in West LA. And I just thought the world of him as a person and we would disagree. We would have great discussions about God. He was an atheist and we'd have discussions. But, you know what, he sent me two, three years later, and I just saw this card two weeks ago. I found it in a thing. He sent me a handwritten note. He said, Wayne, he was in Hawaii at the time, he goes, I'm in Hawaii. I've been going through a tough time. I've been asking myself, what would Wayne do? Thank you for the impact you have on my life. I just sent him a note last weekend because I said, listen, I just read your note again. I want you to know how privileged I feel to be in your life. I love you, and I'm here for you, and I hope we get to meet again soon. Now, he hasn't changed his lifestyle. he hasn't confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, but you know what? If he ever thinks about it, I'm gonna be the guy. I would, I think I would be one of those guys that he's gonna talk to, and I prize that. I value it. I hunger for that. in the people that I, I come in contact with.

Phil: 54:05

Well, the fact that backs up what you're saying when Roe versus Wade was set aside, abortions have gone up. So that didn't change that. That didn't change that. And well, the organization that I sent you the name of you know, a couple of weeks ago, that organization is doing exactly what you are doing. Are talking about they're taking that young woman, given her options that she doesn't have to go through with the abortion because you, you talked to so many in here for so many women that they were young and they were pressured. They felt pressured into doing abortion. That's that was the only answer. But anyway. You know, Wayne, we've talked for an hour. You know that? Oh my goodness. Well, you're right. And it's, it's good. We could talk for several about all these subjects, but, we do have to, I guess, wind things down and go on with life. I, I hope our listeners and viewers have found some interest in this and some benefit in this. And please leave us a comment. Let us know what you think your thoughts about any of these issues or something you would like to hear about. As you help us by becoming one of those now in getting up into the thousands of our subscribers, that would help us make this channel better. We want to improve on what we're doing, how we're doing it and make it more effective for you. So you could leave the comments on any of the platforms, or you can email me directly at P little P I seven, seven, seven. At gmail dot com. And also, maybe if you've got a situation in your life or family or business that you say, I wonder if a private investigator could help me solve this because so many people that come to us are looking for solutions, but they're also looking for peace of mind. Well, then me that information. Let me know what the facts are around it. The P little p I 777 gmail dot com and I will get back to you and let you know. What solutions might be well, Wayne, it's been great. I'm glad we have this time to talk and, and catch up and we'll have to do this more often.

Wayne: 56:15

I really enjoyed it quick hour. And I just want to say too, that there is anyone that maybe you've heard this and you thought, Oh, these guys are all talk or whatever. Just, if there's any way that, that anyone wants to talk to me about any these subject, particularly if you're in a place in life and you say, man, I wanna somebody who maybe isn't interested in, or has a self-interest in my situation to talk. I'm available for that. Just reach out through my father and, and I'd love to, would you want to give your email? Sure. WLittle@gmail.com is my personal email that you can reach me at. And again, I'm not interested necessarily in giving free legal advice, although I do that all the time. But I mean, if you're facing something in life and you're, and something struck you with what I shared that I would love to be able to be somebody that you can turn to and talk to. And I guarantee you, can trust Wayne for a truthfulness and honesty and integrity. That's wlittle at gmail. com. Well, until next time and Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah to everyone coming up in this season. I just pray great blessings on you and your families and may you experience this joy. And exhilaration at this season that there are great things ahead as we look forward to 2025. So until next time, be safe. May God bless you. May God bless your family. And may God bless America.=