[00:00:00] Kate: I bet you know that managing people through change, especially when it's really fast or really significant change that impacts them, it's no joke. Change can be really exciting, but it can also bring up a whole set of problems, all of its own. And that's why today I'm stoked to be delving into the practical side of managing people through change with an HR expert, but not any kind of.
[00:01:33] Old school boring HR expert. I just wanna say that upfront. My guest is Shelley Johnson and she's led human resources teams for over a decade coaching executives and business owners to become the leader they wish they had. Build a dream team and create a culture that has got people talking and people.
[00:01:53] Walking their talk. Applying Shell is the founder of Bold Side. That's her consultancy practice that's focused on HR and leadership development. And when she's not doing that, you're gonna find her behind the microphone on the My Millennial podcast, which is so cool. It's an Australian podcast towards finalist where she has helped.
[00:02:12] Thousands of people build a career they love via the airwaves. And in this episode, I asked Shelley to help troubleshoot some of the trickiest HR related challenges that can emerge during organisational change. And man does she deliver. We dive into how to balance the need for frag agility and flexibility while still maintaining that sense of stability and security for employees.
[00:02:40] And if you manage people, you will know how tricky that can be. See, I told you that we were getting stuck into some of the trickiest challenges that we face in organisational change. I wasn't joking. We also cover how to retain top talent. During rapid change and how people, managers can keep their teams engaged throughout the change.
[00:03:02] I love Shelley's take on the practical side of managing people in this way, and I know that you will too. She really does get super practical. She um, Also mentions a bunch of specific tools and resources that she likes to use and that she finds most helpful. Don't worry, we've linked to all of them in the show notes for you, so they're gonna be really, really easy to find so you can pick them up and use them too. Alright, that's enough from me. Let's take a listen now. Enjoy.
[00:03:29] Shelley. Hello. Hello. I'm so excited that we are chatting. I'm gonna tell you straight away, I stalk you on Instagram and so I know that you facilitate a lot of workshops that you are like all over the place facilitating workshops with everyone. And I have heard that you are an icebreaker enthusiast. Is that true?
[00:03:51] Shelley: Okay. A thousand percent true. Like I'm obsessed with icebreakers
[00:03:55] Kate: This is so interesting.
[00:03:57] Shelley: Like, you know what? I run so many like leadership and culture workshops, and I find that people come in and they're just like, oh, this is gonna be the worst. And they're like, I'm gonna get someone who's pointing at PowerPoint slides and there'll be 250 PowerPoint slides that we have to cover, and I'm gonna sit here and be bought outta my brain.
[00:04:15] So part of my thing has been I'm just going to do some really good icebreakers and not like bad icebreakers, like good ones.
[00:04:21] Kate: is there an icebreaker that comes to mind that we could do just now? The two of us? I've just put you on the spot.
[00:04:27] Shelley: Well, you have, and because what most of my workshops are in person, but I'll tell you one that you could do and any of your listeners will be able to do this outside of this, they need to Google the Nick Cage gauge, and you might've seen this. The Nick Cage gauge is my favorite, all time favorite icebreaker.
[00:04:44] And so what I do in every workshop, I get the team together and I get them to draw. The Nick Cage gauge, which is various cartoon drawings of Nick Cage from certain movies, and they need to kind of say how they're feeling based on Nick Cage, which is facial expressions, and they draw it. But the key, the key part of this icebreaker is you have to draw your version of Nick Cage in your non-dominant hand.
[00:05:09] And so they draw it and they, they get really uncomfortable. So the first part of the workshop is get people outta their comfort zone. Get people kind of thinking and creative into that creative mode. And then the rest of the day they have heaps of fun and they're like, it's so awkward about it. But then it sets them up for the rest of the day where we start talking about things like culture or things like team dynamics.
[00:05:31] What are the behaviors that we do and don't wanna be known for, which can be uncomfortable, but those conversations can be awkward. But we start off with this like uncomfortable slash hilarious moment where everyone's like, okay, cool. Now I've got that outta my system, and I'm ready to show up and talk about some of the tough issues on teams and say that's, that's my fa icebreaker, Nick Cage gage. Look it up.
[00:05:52] Kate: Okay. I love it. So after work today, I will Google that. I'll try to do that. I'm left-handed, so I'll try to scribble that down. I'll send it to you.
[00:06:02] Shelley: Please do. I'd love to see your, your version of it.
[00:06:06] Kate: Well, I'm sure. I'm sure it'll be amazing. That's an interesting twist, the drawing in your other hand, but I love that. Yes. a little doorway into vulnerability and authenticity to start the rest of the session. Amazing. So one of the reasons why I'm so stoked we're chatting today is because. You know, change at work brings stuff up for people in the same way that you said, conversations about culture and leadership and who we are at work and our behaviors. All of that can be very difficult to talk about.
[00:06:39] Change can also bring up, Some big emotions and emotions that people aren't necessarily expecting. You know, stuff like feeling really insecure or anxious or even angry sometimes, or maybe very, very excited. It can be this whole A rollercoaster of emotions for people, including the leadership team when an organization doesn't matter what size, and it almost doesn't matter what kind of change it is.
[00:07:07] Either introducing new values and behaviors, or a restructure or a merger, or your role's gonna change, or everyone needs to know how to do this particular. Task or activity, a whole new part of your work. There's a lot of people stuff that comes up and I'm curious, how can great people, processes, help organizations navigate and embrace some of these big things that can come up in change?
[00:07:35] Shelley: Yeah, what a big question.
[00:07:38] Kate: it's huge.
[00:07:39] Shelley: I'd say it's less about people, processes and more about understanding human behavior. let's say we're rolling out a big change, actually. Let's look at something that's really alive for people right now. Changes that we're seeing across so many organizations.
[00:07:54] So like AI obviously is this whole thing of, okay, how do we adapt to this new way of working? How do we get ahead of the curve and change the way that we work so that we can capitalize on AI and actually do the things we love doing and do less of the things we don't like doing. But when we talk about ai.
[00:08:15] A lot of what I've heard and seen in people is natural. It's that fear response. So what does this mean for my job? What does this mean for my future? How is this going to impact the way that I work? Will this lead to me not having jobs? So all these questions that come up, and a lot of them are fear driven.
[00:08:35] And I think when it comes, and you know this better than me, Kate, when it comes to change, We need to look at how do we build desire for that change. But one of the things that happens I and I see on teams and see leaders struggle with is when fear is a primary motivator for change. and we see this on LinkedIn, like, oh my gosh, there's so many cringey like posts about AI on LinkedIn.
[00:09:02] If you don't get on the AI train, you are gonna be left behind and you will blah, blah, blah. And I'm like,
[00:09:07] Kate: I've seen those two.
[00:09:09] Shelley: Oh, they drive me mental because I'm just like, fear is not a good motivator. It's not a good motivator. There's so many other. Motivators that get a better outcome. And so if we understand human behavior, and we also understand that each individual on our team is going to have slightly different internal motivators.
[00:09:31] So for one of your team members, they'll be driven by achievement and they'll see the challenge of ai and they'll be like, cool, let me add it. Whereas one of your individuals on your team is driven by a sense of acceptance, and they'll be like, I, I need to feel accepted and safe here. In order to make a change.
[00:09:49] If we know that about the people in our team, if we understand human behavior enough, we can lead each person through the change journey in a way that's relevant to them. But if we don't know that and we don't understand what makes our people tick, what makes them buy, buy-in, we just have this one size fits all approach.
[00:10:10] And that's where we get pushback. That's where we get roadblocks, and I think that's what a lot of leaders struggle with.
[00:10:16] Kate: That's very well said. I've seen that play out quite a few times. underpinning what you just shared is this idea of being very intentional and caring when you are a people manager. Really considering and tailoring your strategies to your team, your branch, your division, the culture of your organization, rather than kind of simply driving through and something else that for me really underpins your perspective is, The people manager playing an active role stepping up and taking an active role in kind of leading that change process in a way that makes sense for their team, for their people.
[00:11:00] Amazing. I, I love it and completely, I. You hit the nail on the head and there were some great examples about achievement or acceptance or connection or whatever may be most important. Something that I've seen over and over when we go through big, really significant changes is that. There are some challenges or roadblocks that come up over and over again, and I've got a couple of them and I would love us if you are down for it, for us to kind of have a little troubleshooting time together where I share the general idea and then get your take.
[00:11:34] From an HR people leadership culture kind of perspective on things.
[00:11:40] Shelley: Let's do it. I'm totally.
[00:11:42] Kate: Yay. Okay. Okay. So the first one I'm really interested in is something I see over and over is this need for balancing for change managers, change leaders, people, managers, needing to balance The need for agility and flexibility and speed in change, and at the same time maintaining a sense of stability and security for employees.
[00:12:07] And that's a really tough one. Do you have any tips or advice or insights, suggestions to help people with that?
[00:12:15] Shelley: It's a really good call out, and I think one of the things we struggle with as, people, managers, and leaders, is when we have to live in the tension between two competing things, so agility and speed and stability, or other tensions that we commonly see would be challenge and acceptance or. Responsibility and ownership and autonomy. So if you think about all these tensions that you have to live in as a, people manager or a change manager, they're uncomfortable and they're just, they're just uncomfortable. It's like, I want people to feel a sense of stability, and I want them to move quickly and adapt to the change.
[00:13:01] How do I do both? How do I do both things? Well, I think it starts by acknowledging. That we can have both of those things at the same time. So living in that paradox of, okay, how do we find the tension point between stability and agility? So one way I would frame that to, to your team members or to, or maybe it's like stakeholders who are struggling to get on board.
[00:13:28] I'd be saying to them, our end goal, what I'm hearing is that you want that sense of stability. One of the challenges for us at the moment is that if we don't move forward on this thing, we are going to ultimately lose that stability because this particular process or way of working is going to become so outdated that we can't deliver on that anymore.
[00:13:55] So you kind of calling out if to get to stability and to have a sense of stability. We have to keep moving forward and adapting and changing because if we don't do that, ultimately our team member I was running a workshop with the other day said, well, if we're not growing, we're dying. So it's this idea of stability is a byproduct of forward momentum, but if you don't have that momentum and change, you can't have the stability that you're after anyway.
[00:14:22] So we need to be able to let people know that. The thing that you actually want can be found through this process of change. But we have to allow ourselves to be uncomfortable, to live in the tension, which is not like the nicest place to be. And I think that's such, that's a challenge for so many leaders on so many levels, right?
[00:14:44] We, it's not just in, in change management, it's in every domain of leadership that we live in. This tension.
[00:14:50] Kate: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's really tough. thank you for sharing that recommendation. I really love the advice of. Articulating the tension rather than if you are in this situation right now, don't hold onto it by yourself. Just because you are the leader or the manager doesn't mean you have to carry that alone.
[00:15:11] articulate it,
[00:15:13] Shelley: Yeah.
[00:15:14] Kate: it with your team, and then seek contribution and partnership about it. So I love that. That is super smart.
[00:15:22] Shelley: And I think to your point of getting contribution, that's probably the key thing is you don't have to have the answers to it. You could simply sit down with the team and go, okay, here's our problem. We've got a problem here. We want this sense of stability. And we also want to be forward thinking. We wanna be ahead of the curve.
[00:15:44] Let's brainstorm together, how might we have that future-focused way of working and still maintain this sense of security that we're after and get the team to brainstorm their ideas. And it was Dom Price I did a podcast with on my podcast just last week. And he said that question of one of the things when you're countering problems with teams, you ask them.
[00:16:06] How might we solve this? And it changes the way that your brain looks at that. Instead of going into blocking mode, we actually go into problem solving mode. It's a, it's an optimistic statement, and it can change the way your team respond to some of this stuff.
[00:16:22] Kate: Yeah. Ask the question and invite people in. Yeah. Amazing. Another challenge that comes up a lot of the time, particularly when organizations through the change, The change is either very significant, perhaps culturally, very significant or is moving very, very rapidly can be around retaining talent and you know, that can be tough during times of change.
[00:16:48] And there's a few reasons why. And from a change management perspective, I think there are things that change managers can do strategically to prepare in advance, but often. That's kind of missed and it, it doesn't happen. And I'm wondering, are there any strategies, retention strategies, anything like that that you can recommend or insights you might have to help people keep their employees engaged and committed through those really big transitions?
[00:17:17] Shelley: Yeah, so we talk about in my business, This idea of having retention hooks. So what, if you think about the idea of fishing, you need hooks, you need things that hook people in and keep them there. And often we think about this after the fact. We think about it when we get the resignation letter and we're like, oh shit, I should have thought about that.
[00:17:41] Three months ago that this person might have been impacted. So what I want you to do is under, and again, it comes back to what I said up front, if you understand the motivators of the individuals and know that they're gonna be very different, one person might be interested in like status and money, but the other person is, like you said, interested in connection and relatedness and feeling heard.
[00:18:04] But if you, you don't know that you have the wrong retention hook. So I see leaders typically go to what is the easiest thing, what is the most simple thing? And they, they think, well, what am I interested in? What are my drivers? And so for me, I'm motivated by challenge and achievement.
[00:18:24] I really love a challenge. So then I look at my employees and I think, well, they're gonna like that too, but some of them will. But some of them won't. Like some of them are motivated. And I learned this through the absolute hard way, Kate, really early on as a, as a leader. And it was like a really painful lesson, right?
[00:18:42] I lost someone on my team. They um, moved on and one of the things that we talked about in the exit interview was
[00:18:49] I wasn't encouraging enough. So I'm very um, Driven and my, the way that I lead, and I know a lot of your leaders who are managers will relate to this, is I love solving problems. So I'll look at a problem and be like, there's a problem, there's a problem, and I'm inspired by solving those. But what that did for that particular team member is they just felt like the continual vibe was quite, negative.
[00:19:14] There wasn't enough positive feedback, and I was like, oh, I didn't realize that you needed that. That's my ignorance. Like I was just completely ignorant to the fact that this person who is amazing, needed more regular encouragement. So what I want your listeners to be thinking about is, do I know the retention hooks for each individual team member? Do I know my top? I know my top performers, but do I know what their primary motivators are? Not like the carrot of like I throw a bonus at them or I give them a pay rise. It's what are the deeper drivers? And if we can uncover that, we then need to get really intentional about communicating those things and inviting them into shaping some of those retention strategies.
[00:20:05] So it's not just my ideas over here, it's like how do I get them to input? And a lot of your people on your team will be interested in growth and development. They'll be interested in what career opportunities do I have, what mentoring and learning opportunities do I have? And those are really simple ways of keeping people. If they were easy, everyone would do them. But if you wanna retain great talent and it at the moment, Is one of the biggest challenges I see across organizations, small and large, all over Australia. If you wanna retain your talent, you need to understand first what motivates people and why they want to work for you, why they wanna stay, and then second, you need to engage with them around how do you create those opportunities to keep them engaged.
[00:20:55] Kate: Ooh, such good insights. Because you've mentioned that a few times. I'm wondering are there any tools or resources that you recommend that might help people uncover the motivations from, the individuals in their teams? It sounds, some of the words you've used remind me of strengths finder, Gallup stuff.
[00:21:16] But I'm so curious. Is that where. You are heading or have you got some other tools and resources?
[00:21:21] Shelley: obsessed with StrengthsFinder, like I do it with all of my leaders in, in my coaching programs.
[00:21:28] Kate: Same. It's amazing. Same? Yeah.
[00:21:30] Shelley: it's the best. So StrengthsFinder, absolutely. But actually it was a friend of mine, uh, Rob Hicks, who runs Funny Business podcast with Lock Bradford. He was the one who told me about moving motivators.
[00:21:44] And he showed me this idea of moving motivators. What are the internal drivers for people? So, I think it's based on Dan Pink's book Drive, which a lot of your listeners probably have heard of or have read. And the idea is we have these deep level motivators or wise, and they're categorized into 10 different, different categories.
[00:22:05] And then what you can do with your team is you can line them up. And get them to order their motivators in order of importance. And so he showed me that and it was a really helpful process. And so since I've learned that from him, I've been doing that with my teams as well. And I think it's a very practical and easy way.
[00:22:24] We can add it into the show notes. I'll send you the link. It's just called Moving Motivators, and you can do this activity with your teams. Super easy. Take 15 minutes, do it in your next team meeting won't cost you a cent, but you will walk away and you'll be like, oh my gosh. I did not understand this about my team.
[00:22:42] I didn't know this.
[00:22:44] Kate: amazing. We definitely will link to those resources. We'll also, add a link to the Gallup website for strengths, finders for people, strengths finder, I should say. If you haven't heard of that or if you'd like to refresh yourself on that, 'cause that is an amazing resource as well. Very insightful, just to do yourself.
[00:23:01] And amazing to get your team to do, Even for the shared language that it can create with your team, I think is, game changing in many ways. Oh my gosh. I've got so many more questions for you, but I'm gonna wrap up 'cause I know that we're at time. How can people who would like to keep the conversation going get in touch with you?
[00:23:22] Shelley: Yeah, the best way to get in touch with me is on LinkedIn, so Shelley Johnson, just search me up, message me on LinkedIn, or you can find me on Instagram, at bold side.
[00:23:31] Kate: we're gonna link to everything. We'll link to your website as well. I'm gonna continue stalking you on Instagram 'cause I love seeing all the workshops that you're running and where you're off to. Especially when I'm having a week where I'm not traveling, I'm like, oh, there she goes.
[00:23:46] She's off again. Busy, busy. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. This was great and I know it's gonna be so helpful to. Many people.
[00:23:57] Shelley: thank you so much for having me, Kate.
[00:23:59] Kate: Thanks. Have a great day.
[00:24:01]