[00:00:00] Kate: Hello. Hello. I'm stoked that you're here, friend. Now, you would have already seen the title of this episode, but I want to tell you straight away, whether you're working on a reconciliation action plan right now or not, whether you're a senior leader, maybe you've been tasked with that responsibility, or you might be a change leader who's involved in any other significant transformation program, this episode is for you.
[00:01:34] Today I'm talking with Dixie Crawford about how reconciliation action plans can drive meaningful positive change in organisations. Dixie is a Barkindji woman who lives and works on Ngunnawal country. She's the founder and managing director of Naganya, specialising in cross cultural leadership and the development and implementation of reconciliation plans, which you're going to hear us call them RAPs throughout this episode.
[00:02:00] And she does that work with corporate Australian and government agencies. Dixie is an Aboriginal engagement consultant who uses her lived experiences to challenge ideas and the way it's always been done. She's committed to making a difference in how Aboriginal people are heard and understood. Her passion is helping others to understand the cause of barriers that impact thinking and doing when it comes to engaging with and creating opportunities for First Nations people and communities to thrive.
[00:02:29] In this conversation, Dixie shares a number of really powerful insights and practical tips on how you can engage with First Nations people in a meaningful way and how a RAP can be a vehicle to genuinely support reconciliation in a really meaningful way through your organisation. Oh, this was such a fun conversation.
[00:02:50] Gosh, we covered a bunch. We talked about the four pillars of reconciliation plans. We talked about how to have uncomfortable conversations. That was a biggie. We covered the first step change leaders must take before, before facilitating any conversations with others. And we also talked about Dixie's advice on the three steps that you must take to start driving positive change through your RAP.
[00:03:17] Here's what else you need to know. As well as dropping a whole lot of gold specifically about developing meaningful reconciliation action plans, the insights that Dixie shares in this episode are relevant to any change program that you might be supporting right now. I can guarantee it. During this conversation, I was reminded of the saying, "how you do anything is how you do everything."
[00:03:40] The way that we engage our stakeholders with intention, Including First Nations people and communities, the stories that we tell ourselves at the outset of any transformation program, the questions that we need to ask ourselves first, the steps that you've got to take. They are all at their core, very similar. I know that you're going to get so much out of this chat. So let's dive in.
[00:04:05] Dixie. Hi, welcome to the show. I am very, very excited that you're here.
[00:04:10] Dixie: Thank you. Thanks Kate for having me. I am a long time listener and so it's great to be a guest on your show.
[00:04:15] Kate: Oh, I'm thrilled, I'm thrilled. Now, I know there's a lot of stuff I want to talk about, serious kinds of things, but I, want to ask you a question first. It's kind of more of a personal question. I hope it's okay. Just tell me to shut up. If it's not, I'm so inspired by what I see you doing online and the way that you use your voice online. And I'm really curious, is there kind of a lineage of strong women who have been vocal in your family?
[00:04:43] Dixie: Short answer. Absolutely. Long answer. How could they not be right? I'm a First Nations woman. How could you not survive and be thriving in 2023 if you do not come from a long, long lineage of incredibly strong, powerful, unwavering, unapologetic black women. Absolutely.
[00:05:03] Kate: Oh, I had an inkling. I've always wanted to ask you that because the way that you turn up and show up, the energy behind it is so inspiring. Obviously, we're going to link to everything in the show notes, but if you're listening to this straight away and you don't know who Dixie is, you are not connected with her on LinkedIn, we will link to it, uh, link to her profile so that you can go check it out for yourself and be just as impressed as I am. but thank you for showing up and using your voice in the way that you do. It reminds me to try to be a little bit braver. Myself as well.
[00:05:40] Dixie: thanks Kate for saying that. And, you know, to be honest, I haven't always been like that. Like most women in a modern day world, we get told what to do, how we should be, how we should turn up, what we shouldn't do, more than what it is that we should do. And... I just no longer subscribe to the notion of who I should be for somebody else's comfort.
[00:06:00] And so, when I talk about sovereignty as a woman, I talk about being comfortable and proud of who it is that I am and how it is that I represent my voice. How it is that I am an extension and representation of my family and my community and where it is that I come from. So, I'm not for everyone, let's be honest.
[00:06:20] And that's okay. my nickname. Has been cyclone since I was a little girl and that's, that's, you know, for a reason. And the older that I've gotten and the more independent I have become, the more unapologetic I am in who I am and how it is that I want to be perceived and present to the world.
[00:06:41] And I guess I'm in this era of being an autonomous, sovereign woman who makes no apologies for who she is and how she wants to contribute to the change in this country for First Nations people, but also for First Nations women and women in general. I just no longer subscribe to the notion of who I should be for somebody else's comfort.
[00:07:01] Kate: yeah. Amazing. I'm sure you've probably been told this before, but in case you need a reminder, your turning up like that is contagious and inspires others. it is a very powerful, infectious in the best possible way energy that you bring.
[00:07:18] Dixie: Thank you. Thank you so much.
[00:07:20] Kate: I just, I had to get it off my chest straight up early.
[00:07:23] But I know that you do a lot of work with reconciliation action plans and that can represent for an organisation, change, a significant change. So, I'd love to know your take on how can an action reconciliation plan drive positive change Towards reconciliation.
[00:07:46] Dixie: so I've been, I've been working on Reconciliation Action Plans probably for the last three and a half years. Prior to then I was doing a lot of different stakeholder engagement work. And the stakeholder engagement work that I was doing with Corporate Australia and also government was an extension of their Reconciliation Action Plans.
[00:08:05] And I was often engaged to do these engagement plans that, to be honest, I could just pick apart like a hem on a pair of pants because there were just so many holes in what people were trying to do and why they were trying to do it. That it made me realise, in fact, I think the fundamental strategic direction or document that's driving engagement with First Nations people in this organisation, being their RAP, is flawed.
[00:08:30] And there is much more focus on it being a transaction versus it being a transformational piece of strategic leadership within a business that can enable long term social change in terms of diversity and inclusion, recognition of First Nations lived experiences, and understanding of the social and political landscape that black people live in in this country.
[00:08:51] But also, what does an understanding and perception of First Nations culture look like and how culture is diverse in different parts of this country because it is, it is very diverse. We are not one set of people with, you know, particular cultural processes and protocols. There's a lot of diversity that sits within that.
[00:09:11] So, I transitioned from doing stakeholder engagement projects to working with organisations on RAPs because I see a RAP as being a fundamental document that can inform your practice, which needs to be informed by the principles that you demonstrate on a day to day basis. So, I transitioned out of that to make those engagement projects much more meaningful and impactful for First Nations people and to create a stronger link between Corporate Australia and First Nations communities. Because I just saw there was a big gap there that really lacked critical self reflection. But also recognition that there is something better or different that we can be doing here to be more I guess courageous leaders and to have an impact on what it is that we say we want to have an impact. Like there's no point talking about wanting to be, as an example, an employer of choice of First Nations people when in fact you've got no black staff working in your business.
[00:10:04] Like I could just come along and just critique that really, really quickly. And so I wanted to work on the foundational pillars of a business, which is what really attracted me to working on RAPS, pillars in a RAPR relationships, respect, governance, and opportunities. And I really wanted to build the capability and the intentional leadership of organisations around those pillars.
[00:10:25] Kate: Amazing. You just mentioned, you saw there was kind of a lack of critical self reflection and perhaps a lack of courage. Can we talk more about that? Because I imagine in this work that critical self reflection is probably really key and it could make people uncomfortable in themselves when they're reflecting.
[00:10:46] And also as part of conversations. Tell me about your experience with uncomfortable conversations. Is that something that comes up a lot for you?
[00:10:55] Dixie: of course. And I guess we need to look contextually at what it is that we, if you grew up in this country and you went to school here or even university, you know there was a particular narrative that was sold to us or told to us about what happened from the first fleet arriving to the opportunities or the handouts that Aboriginal people get.
[00:11:15] And, you know, we're told a particular narrative and it's not even just from school, but I guess it's more broadly in the community. There's just common myths and ideas about, you know, what blackfellas get and what it is that they don't get. So I think for me, I've spent a lot of time demystifying some of those perceptions and ideas that people have and I don't ever go into a conversation to say to someone, you are fundamentally wrong, even though I might think that. I try to be the best catalyst for change that I possibly can. And so the way that I do my work is that operate from a place of curiosity and I present alternative ideas for people to think about at another time.
[00:11:55] I think communication is really, really important and the way that you frame questions and the way that you deliver messages is the difference, but is when you align people's heads, heart and their gut in order to make their feet go in a particular direction. So for me, I'm very much about asking uncomfortable questions and allowing people to sit in that moment to do their own critical self reflection within their own time. I don't ever tell people what it is that they have to do. I present options to people and the intention about that is for people to build their own skill set, their capability and their confidence to be able to do the work in a way that they see as what they can contribute to is the most effective, right?
[00:12:39] Because we're all different. We're all got different ideas, different experiences, different strengths, different values. And the point that I try to make is that everyone can contribute to the solutions that we're trying to achieve here in this country around race relations, equitable outcomes for Aboriginal people, and just better relationships.
[00:12:56] Kate: Yeah. Amazing. there were a couple of things that you just said then that. Gives me the impression that, there may be a bit of a process to these uncomfortable conversations and uncomfortable feelings that people may have when they are reflecting. It sounds like one of the first steps is that leaders reflect themselves before kind of trying to facilitate a conversation. Is that something that you'd recommend? I just wanted to make sure I'm picking up what you're putting down.
[00:13:27] Dixie: One hundred percent. What I talk about a lot with leaders in businesses, most people are very nervous when they start a reconciliation action plan or they've been identified as the sponsor or the champion of the document within a business and they're so afraid of getting it wrong.
[00:13:42] Inherently, we're all people pleasers, like let's reconcile with that to start with, right? We all know that we want to do our best and we don't want to be judged. That's natural. That's humanistic behavior. I get it. I understand it. But what's important to remember and what I encourage all of my clients to do is know that you don't have to know all the answers when you are a champion or you are the sponsor that is leading the implementation of the RAP, your job is not to have all the answers. Your job is to be an effective leader that facilitates effective conversations around racism, reconciliation and diversity and inclusion. That's not to say that you can cut the corners and just be a project manager and point the finger and say people do this and people do that.
[00:14:23] Your job is always to ask once again the right questions and to build the capability and confidence of your staff to also do the work. But, you have to lead by example with that. So if encouraging people to do an acknowledgement of country, guess what? You have to lead by writing and delivering a meaningful and impactful acknowledgement of country.
[00:14:44] the leadership that you demonstrate is what people will see. And every time you demonstrate and you set a leadership around a particular piece of work, guess what? You raise a standard. You start demonstrating to people, this is how we do business here in our organisation. This is what our people culture is reflective of.
[00:15:00] So, I guess what it comes down to is when you do that critical self reflection, it's about, okay, cool, you might know this new information about yourself. You might know new information about the world that you're connected to, but it's not enough just to know it. You've got to start demonstrating. You've got to start leading into that work in the right way for yourself as a business.
[00:15:19] Kate: Yeah. Amazing. Yes. So it starts with you. I love what you just said. I wrote it down. You raise the standard. When you're the leader, it starts with you. You raise the standard. And thank you for also saying you don't need to have all the answers. It's about facilitating the process.
[00:15:36] Dixie: And sharing information, sharing information is also critical, right? So if you're learning a new piece of information, share it and be excited and be, you know, engaging with your staff and find the enjoyment of it because to be honest, and it's something that's really critical that organisations and leaders be mindful of is that fear that turns up in terms of are we going to get it wrong in the conversations that we have with First Nations people?
[00:16:01] We're worried that we might offend someone, that we might come across as being rude or as though we're being racist or, we don't want to make mistakes. I get it. I understand it. But also, sometimes if you present new information and you present it in a way that's exciting and enthusiastic, people will usually buy into that.
[00:16:19] And so the conversations that we have, think about how you're framing them, think about your body language, think about your tone of voice, think about the language that you're speaking about. Are we saying should or are we saying we can? Are we talking about being fearful or are we talking about being excited or are we talking about learning as well as leading? Like there's just lots of different ways that you can reframe and demonstrate your leadership around this work.
[00:16:44] Kate: yes. Thank you. This is very, very helpful practical advice for people. it comes back to some of that energy, doesn't it? The energy behind the communication And it reminds me of some of the stuff we talked about at the beginning of this conversation in terms of how you're showing up online and the energy you bring and how you're presenting it. And you're walking the talk there in terms of raising the standard and checking in with yourself. Amazing.
[00:17:11] Dixie: you know that old saying you can't be what you can't see. And I think that if we want to talk about demonstrating or having compassion, understanding, empathy, Courageous leadership around advocacy, around reconciliation. You can't just talk about that stuff, right?
[00:17:29] You've got to show it. I often say to people, you can tell me what's important to you, or you can show me and I will know, right? Like, there's no point telling me that you are an organisation that is deeply connected to First Nations people and communities, and yet there is no Black fella that has proximity or connection to your business. I will 100 percent critique and question the legitimacy of that statement and your outcomes will speak for themselves, right?
[00:17:58] Kate: Yeah. That's such an interesting point. I'm now I'm wondering if I'm an organisation maybe there aren't any First Nations people in my team but I'm looking to build a RAP. what would you recommend in terms of some first steps around that
[00:18:16] Dixie: So this is really interesting and I want to talk about this because we need to understand why it is that we are doing something, right? So what is the actual purpose here? In 2021, there were a ton of organisations that went out and got Reconciliation Action Plans. I mean a ton of them.
[00:18:33] those of you who don't know this, the Reconciliation Australia Framework, there's four levels to it. there's Reflect, Innovate, Stretch and Elevate. And so Elevate is the top end of the framework you know, level four, and Reflect is the beginning level.
[00:18:49] And so a lot of organisations, from my perspective, went out and got Reconciliation Action Plans and they started at Reflect. Now Reflect goes for 12 months. Sometimes it'll stay for a little bit longer, maybe 18 months, depending on how it is that you're progressing with the deliverables within the Action Plan.
[00:19:05] But what I saw, and definitely what I've noticed as a trend now, is that people are coming to me saying, Hey, can you help us fix up our Reflect RAP deliverables because we aren't transitioning to innovate because we've got things left over and so when I go in and I talk to businesses about what it is that they've done, what I recognise is that they didn't actually know why they were starting.
[00:19:27] And so there wasn't really a purpose and I'm sorry to be very transparent, but here's the facts. Most of the organisations that have reconciliation action plans that sit at Reflect went out and got RAPS because they didn't want to be called out as though they didn't have a RAP, right?
[00:19:44] Because 2020 and Black Lives Matter had a huge, huge impact on that. That was a critical point in this country where corporate Australia decided we've got to level up even more here. And so I saw organisations getting RAPs, wanting to have them, but not knowing why. And so when you build a house on And not so strong foundation, it's going to fall apart and that's definitely what I've seen.
[00:20:11] So where it is that you need to start is knowing what it is that you are doing and why it is that you want to do it. And I'm telling you, you better be prepared to die on the hill for that because everyone can start a RAP, not everyone will finish one. And so you're needing to have tough conversations about unconscious bias.
[00:20:27] And guess what? Racism. And white supremacy and all of these other things, they lurk in the shadows of your businesses. And if you aren't prepared to rumble with those conversations and address that culture that is inherently a part of this country, your RAP is going nowhere real quick. And the risk with that is that if you've had a RAP that's been sitting there for such a long time and you've done sweet FA with it, let me tell you, your reputation as an organisation, your reputation as a leadership team, is going to be called into question. So let's really be clear about what you're doing, why it is that you're doing it, and let's make sure we've got strong integrity about that.
[00:21:08] So the first place to start is to know why it is that you're doing something. The second place to start is to recognise Do you actually have the leadership capability and people culture within the business to sustain the tough conversations that need to occur here? If the answer is yes, great. If the answer is no, also great.
[00:21:29] Because then you know what cards you're playing with, right? You can't start doing this work with assuming that everything is going to be pretty colors and butterflies. Because let me tell you, it's not. These are tough yarns that need to occur. But also you're not going to die if you feel uncomfortable in a conversation, right?
[00:21:47] however, there are serious ramifications for us as First Nations people if you go out and do such a mediocre transactional, tokenistic approach to engagement and designing and delivering services to Aboriginal people that are critical to our lives, right? There's serious issues there if you are doing this stuff surface level when there are serious Long term issues that you need to understand around First Nations communities.
[00:22:12] And the third point that I just want to make is, you have to effectively resource the RAP. That's coming from a people perspective as well as money, right? Organisations tend to believe, they do position a RAP as being a nice to have rather than a must. However, you do have a must around corporate and social responsibility and this is where a RAP will sit.
[00:22:33] You do have a must around being a diverse and inclusive workplace, and this is where a RAP will sit. So, don't make the mistake of putting your RAP within the responsibility of people who are passionate and committed. They might buy from Clothing The Gap, or they might go to a march, or they listen to Thelma Plum, right?
[00:22:51] Like, they're proper people who are immersed in First Nations culture and people. Don't put this additional work onto them, because you're taking advantage of your people. If you are really committed to this as an organisation, pull up, right? Pull up means that you financially, you put the right finances behind it and the right people resources behind it as well for it to actually be impactful within the organisation.
[00:23:13] So the top three things, just to recap there, make sure you know why you're doing something, make sure that you demonstrate the commitment, and the third thing is make sure you resource this effectively. Otherwise your RAP is going nowhere.
[00:23:26] Kate: amazing amazing practical steps for people thank you that is a pathway That is clearly, easily actionable. that is great advice. I want to talk about vulnerability a little bit in terms of the why. Each of those steps, there's vulnerability. There's vulnerability in identifying why.
[00:23:48] What is the purpose of this and kind of getting really clear and very specific and kind of cutting the crap and, you know, pulling back the layers to something really meaningful. And there's also vulnerability in determining what your capability, your current leadership capability and people capability what you have.
[00:24:06] Or what you don't have in that space and of course there's vulnerability in terms of committing resources to stuff as well. That very first part about drilling down to get to a purposeful why what are some tips that you can share about helping to create a space for vulnerability for the leadership team , or. Whomever needs to be involved in those conversations to kind of help get to a clear understanding of the why.
[00:24:38] Dixie: one of the points that I think is really important is that we reframe the word of vulnerability and reconciliation work. I get why it makes sense to talk about vulnerability, but I'm also really mindful about the language that we associate RAPs with and leadership around engaging with First Nations communities because it's not that you can't do it. The reality is, is that sometimes you just won't do it. Right? And vulnerability is something that sometimes people just can't do, right? They're just like, I can't be vulnerable because my people might think I'm weak.
[00:25:12] Or I can't be vulnerable because I don't know how to handle my emotions. Whatever the reason might be. I do tend to just ask people, why can't we do this? Literally, that 4 year old, you know, 3 year old all the time. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Right? Just go on and on and dig, dig down into the detail. And once you get down to all those levels of all that, all those excuses, the reality is that you just don't know how to start or where to start. it's anything about learning a new skill. No one knows how to do something until they start doing it. I didn't know how to run a business until I started running a business.
[00:25:51] Kate: Oh, no, Dixie. You're so right. I've read something just on the weekend that was about why we get distracted, why we distract ourselves from things and Distraction is because there is some kind of pain or discomfort that a human is experiencing and so we distract ourselves to get away from that discomfort, from that pain and so, all that external stuff, that's just an excuse, that's a nice, easy kind of reason. But it's actually, Anything that there's been a distraction for, if you think back about your emotion around it, it's to do with discomfort.
[00:26:25] This
[00:26:26] Dixie: it's the truth though. No one dies from being uncomfortable.
[00:26:29] sure, there's the death of the ego, But, we know what we know and we know what we don't know, and when we get to that line of knowing what it is that we don't know, oh my goodness, you have to push through that, right? Because guess what, on the other side of that is Narnia, that's the growth zone, right? So,
[00:26:45] What I would say to you is that when you feel the knots in your gut turning up, or you feel like you don't know how to say something, or you're not sure, ask yourself in that moment, not why is this happening to me, what is this teaching me?
[00:27:01] Because they are teaching moments, right? They're teaching moments, and they're moments for you to do critical self reflection. But more importantly, they are growth moments for you that you get to do something different. Something that you haven't done before. And so, if we haven't really been an organisation with a RAP that's done meaningful stuff, let's start being an organisation that now has an impact, that now is greatly connected to First Nations community where First Nations community will say, Yeah, that mob over there from that organisation, they're deadly people to hang out with because they really care about us as communities. They turn up when they say they're going to turn up.
[00:27:40] They deliver when they say they're going to deliver. Don't be focused on why is this happening to me? But think about what is the impact that you can make when you decide to get out of your own way?
[00:27:50] Kate: Yes, incredible advice. I know that we have been talking about RAPS today and genuine and meaningful engagement about your reconciliation action plan. But a lot of what you have said, is very, very helpful advice, no matter what the change or transformation inside your organisation that you are seeking to, you know, that might be challenging.
[00:28:12] You might've tried it before and you screwed it up, there's so much transferable gold in what you've shared. I have no doubt that through this conversation, people are going to want to get in contact with you to find out more and have conversations about their Reconsiliation Action Plans. How can people in contact with you?
[00:28:32] Dixie: You can track me down on LinkedIn. That's the place where I usually play, so Dixie Crawford over at LinkedIn, and I also have a mailing list, so check out my website, which is https://nganya.com.au/. But all of this information is on my LinkedIn, but, On LinkedIn is where I play the most and I do share a lot of Reconciliation Action Plans in terms of Tips, video, I share some checklists on there.
[00:28:58] I also have a mailing list, which I would really encourage you to To jump on to and subscribe to because every week we share some really practical information About what it is that you can do around implementation, but on Mondays, we send a critical self reflection Email where we frame up one question for you to go into your leadership,
[00:29:17] Kate: Oh, that's
[00:29:18] Dixie: Yeah, and I give you some examples about, you know, the way that you might be able to think about this, but I love the RA framework, the Reconciliation Action Plan framework, I'm very committed to that, and I want to make sure that organisations really this work properly, because love them or hate them, RAPs are the only strategic, or can be the only strategic document in an organisation that is relevant to First Nations people, depending on what industry you're working in. But it can be the only and the key strategic direction that is driving considerations around Aboriginal people, needs and aspirations.
[00:29:53] So, check me out on LinkedIn subscribe to our mailing list, and also my podcast is launching in October, so you can check that out
[00:30:00] Kate: we'll link to everything in the show notes so that it's super easy for people to get to. I am thrilled that you're doing this work. It is really important and it is such a huge opportunity for organisations interested in genuinely supporting meaningful reconciliation action, that there is a way, there is a channel in your organisation that you can kind of proactively step up and take action
[00:30:24] Dixie: yeah. Thank you. I just want to say on one final note before we go, team, this stuff, this work, it gets to be fun. Have fun with it, right? Like, please don't be dragging your feet in the sand or thinking that no one cares about it. Your energy and your enthusiasm will be infectious with this if you find your most authentic, fun, Vibrant leadership style people will eventually get on board with it, right?
[00:30:54] It's it's a hard slog sometimes. I just want to give a shout out to that and acknowledge that it can be tricky From time to time and I'm not being naive about that. But just remember this gets to be fun and have fun in this work It
[00:31:08] Kate: Incredible. It gets to be fun. A great reminder. Thank you so much. I'm excited for us to continue talking, but thank you so much for today.
[00:31:16] Dixie: Thanks for having me Kate
[00:31:17]