[00:00:00] Kate: Do you ever feel like you're driving your organisation's change program all alone? If you do, don't worry, it's not just you. Change leaders need to live in the future a lot of the time, but going against the grain and the way that things are done in the organisation right now, Well, that takes a toll, doesn't it?
[00:01:26] And that's just one of the challenges that folks working in the change space encounter, but rarely talk about. My guest on the show today, Dr. Jess Tayel, joins me in a really honest conversation about tricky challenges that change leaders at all levels face and how to overcome them. This is such a juicy spill the beans kind of conversation.
[00:01:49] But before we get stuck in, let me introduce Jess so I don't get ahead of myself. Dr. Jess Tayel has 25 years of experience in business transformation and change. She has mentored leaders, delivered programs and built change and transformation practices in 15 countries across five continents. She is super passionate about creating enterprise level change that really propels people and organisations forward without the rework, doing it over and over, getting it wrong the first time, doing it again, and the guesswork around that.
[00:02:23] She is a coach, a consultant, and a leader who delivers change and transformation programs, as well as executive coach and mentoring people. And she's also the founder of the People of Transformation Community. Jess and I cover so much in this conversation. We talked about the biggest misconceptions about leading change.
[00:02:42] We dive into the most common challenges that Jess sees coming up for change leaders. And... What to do about them, how leaders can accelerate their career progression in change and transformation and the most important skills and qualities that change managers really must possess these days if you are serious about delivering change and that conversation, it's not about which certifications to get. We go way beyond that. If you're really interested in mastering your craft and intentionally shaping the way that you practice change management, this episode is for you. Here we go. My conversation with Dr. Jess Tayel.
[00:03:25] Jess, I'm so thrilled that we're chatting today. Thank you for joining me.
[00:03:30] Jess: Thank you for having me. It's a, it's a pleasure.
[00:03:33] Kate: it's my pleasure too. I'm, I'm so excited for us to chat. I know you've had a big career Is there a particular memorable experience that sticks out for you that's had an impact, maybe a profound or a big impact on the way that you work now or the way that you think about change now?
[00:03:49] Jess: I think probably the one that really made the, probably the biggest difference. Was when I was working, in a transformation program with the world cup, the men's world cup , last year it was such a very difficult transformation and there was a lot of things to do, very complex environment.
[00:04:13] And there was a lot of people joining and they weren't really sure what to do. And some would be asking questions about, okay, what is the next thing to do? And some would be like, just following it. And you can see that the team is not at ease. And that's when it kind of hits me that of the work that I would love to do for my client depends a lot on how people feel about being in that transformation program and get the clarity that they need so that they're able to shine and spread their wings. some people speak up, most people don't speak up. And that's when I decided, okay, one day that day has come one day there will be This is how we do transformation.
[00:04:59] This is the best the tools, the techniques, the practicalities of how to do it. These are the questions to ask so that I can empower those leaders and change catalysts to actually do what they're supposed to do. And not have to spend half of their energies just trying to either pretend or try to figure out the answers on their own.
[00:05:19] Kate: Hmm. What an insight. Yes, that so much of it has to do with how people feel about being part of the change. Yeah. Ooh, that's a goodie. Thank you. Thank you. I know that these days. You work with lots of people as a coach and a mentor to people in the change and transformation space. What are some of the biggest misconceptions that you hear from people, maybe about leadership in change or transformation or about change itself?
[00:05:50] Jess: There's a few that come to mind and probably the one that I'd start with is as a leader, we think we need to know everything and we have to have all the answers and it is never the case. It's actually such a burden that it will burn out, the leaders really quickly.
[00:06:06] You don't have to have all the answers. You just need to know how to ask the right questions and be authentic in your. communication. I know this word is used and over and over used about being authentic. What it really is for me, the way I see it is just to speak from the heart, let people know that you can see them, you understand them and you're also seen and heard.
[00:06:27] So that we can remove those invisible barriers of how we're being perceived by each other. So I think that's the first one for sure. The second is hard work. I'm just going to soldier on. We're going to do it. The tasks, the Gantt charts, the work streams, and specifically talking about change and transformation, I'm not talking about the very clear cut projects facelift of something. I'm talking about things that you're actually going against the grain and the fabric or the organisation, the status quo and actually trying to change it, which can be a very lonely place. It requires a little bit more than just the logical side of, these are the tasks, these are the work streams, just hire the people, get the army and off you go.
[00:07:14] There's a lot to do with how to think from the end state. How what success looks like, what's the outcome. How do you want people to feel about this? And you see me talking a lot about feeling, cause I feel like this is a lot of, there's a lot of truth in emotions and bringing emotions into the table.
[00:07:32] How do I connect all the dots? All landscapes now are probably complex and full of busyness and noise. How do we cut through and actually create an impact straight away by having that kind of an x ray vision into the organisation so you can get to see what's that golden thread that I need to hold onto to make sure that my change and transformation actually works.
[00:07:54] Kate: Mm. Yes. Oh, my gosh. You've just shed so much gold on that golden thread. You just made me reflect about how long I held on to that heaviness of needing certainty. I was like, oh, shit, people are going to come to me and ask me questions and I'm always going to need to have the answer. And when I was able to, get over that and realize that it's not about me knowing all the answers, no matter what role you're in, no matter how senior you are in the organisation, or perhaps you've been hired as a specialist for this particular project, you don't need to know all the answers.
[00:08:28] You need to know how to facilitate, engage like you said, help people feel seen and heard and coordinate those kinds of words, those bringing together kinds of words way more than you need to know all of the answers. Way more effective. Thank you. And I agree you mentioned it can be a very lonely place when you're going against the fabric of the organisation, when you're trying to introduce the change, when you are either by yourself or part of a very small team that is introducing that change that can feel really tricky, particularly if you think you need to know all the answers.
[00:09:06] Those going together. That's a terrible place to be. I love your focus on emotions. In fact, I recently had a conversation with Jeremy Dean, who's the founder of the emotional culture deck, and we can link to that episode for folks to check out. Sounds like we're very aligned.
[00:09:24] What other kinds of skills and qualities do change managers or change leaders need these days, when they are introducing transformation beyond the step by step process of change, you know, beyond the theory.
[00:09:39] Okay.
[00:09:39] theory
[00:09:39] Jess: I think the two things I would focus on, everybody is a leader. You don't have to have the title of executive director, senior manager to actually be leading your part of the change and transformation. And the reason why I mentioned that is, I think there is a big shift from being directive and again, back to the point about knowing the answers to moving into a coaching space. So from boss to coach. How can I create the right space, the right environment for everyone to shine and bring their strengths to the table? Ask the right question, genuine curiosity about what's really going on for you. That's probably one of the biggest most critical skills that I think is a focus. I definitely focus on that when I'm mentoring and coaching others to build that kind of capability.
[00:10:33] The other skill that I think is very important, and it's kind of a n invisible, but a superpower at the same time which goes to what I said before about almost every landscape now is complex. A lot of busyness, a lot of noise, and there's also the need for speed. There's a lot of trends out there. We want to catch the AI train and we want to do this with our data and we want to do this and that. However, I think one of the most important things, which success or the failure of change and transformation programs is the ability to connect the dots.
[00:11:07] You might be an expert in your one area, which is great, but I think we're moving from an era where I'm a specialist and that's all I know to, that's my area. I love it. That's what I do. But I also know, I see the bigger picture. I see where that fits in. I see how I can enable the ones that depend on me and the ones that need my work to continue to do their work.
[00:11:31] So being able to see that bigger picture, connect the dots, ask the right questions. Meet the organisation and the people where they're at and match the language and the maturity is a critical skill.
[00:11:45] Kate: Good ones. Yes, I completely agree. Tell me more about the organisation and the people where they're at. Well, elaborate on that for me a little bit.
[00:11:54] Jess: Yeah, that's an area that's very close to my heart. And I think that realization that this is one of the things that are absolutely needed came from working with a lot of organisations globally and seeing the whole organisation consultant tension dynamics uh, where people come in with the answer. We've done it before, this is how we've done it. That's what good looks like. Take it. And we're kind of doing a mega copy based exercise from what they know and what they've done in other places to the existing place. So that whole tension dynamics between internal organisation versus consultants who are seen to have the answer and we're going to work together collaboratively to do it, I think where I took notice about meeting people where they're at is at that point in time where I feel like some consultants would come in.
[00:12:49] That's what you need to do and people would logically agree like, yeah, we definitely want that. I mean, they can't say no to that, you know, nice shiny object thing that we want to do. However, the organisation maturity, when I say organisation maturity, I mean their capability, their ability to, not just capability of the people, but capability of the actual organisation, their ability to change how structured they are, how agile they are, does not match, does not give the right space, environment, foundation for that thing to happen. However, we still kind of go and do the thing, but it does not sustain. It falls into the cracks because we were not ready for it. That was that first time I realized meeting organisations where they're at and taking them on a journey, a journey of change adoption, not just, here's the thing, install it, is it good to go? And then I leave.
[00:13:44] The same thing actually goes with leaders and change catalysts are working in their own change and transformation program. They might come in from an organisation and they've got the level of, you know, educational qualifications and experience that might be a little bit higher than where the rest of the team is where the organisation is at.
[00:14:03] And we don't want to wear that consultant suit where, you know what guys, I know the all the answers. I want to drop down and I'm saying drop down, not dumb it down because I don't think we need to dump down anything. We just need to drop it down to a level where I'm taking people on a journey to that thinking space. To seeing what I'm seeing so we can have proper conversations. I think what trips this process up is that need for speed. It's like enough conversations. Where's the thing that we were doing? Where's the code? Where's the system? Where's the document? Where is that new org chart? Where's the operating model?
[00:14:38] And it doesn't give enough time for this to kind of simmer. Takes it time. And I always come at it from a perspective of sharpen the saw before cutting the tree. Take your time to sharpen the saw before cutting the tree. We might be under the impression that we're actually delivering because there's tangibles that we're delivering. However, those tangibles don't really work and we ended up doing a lot of rework, which could have been avoided if we focused more time on, on the design and the thinking space.
[00:15:10] Kate: Yes, that's very insightful. I agree that there's something so tempting about consultants coming in with a silver bullet solution. it's so attractive. We do want solutions. We do want to change. We want it to be sustainable and we want it to feel easy along the way.
[00:15:27] And I agree that the truth or the reality of what it takes to build capability and build, consensus in an organisation can take a little bit of time. There is a tension there. In your conversations with clients. Tell me about some of the other really common challenges that you see change managers or leaders kind of coming up against in this space.
[00:15:52] Jess: well, some of those challenges are related to speed wanting to do something and we'll do it quickly. The focus on execution versus design, design, understanding what the problem is, and then designing a solution. I think that the one thing I want to, to bring up and bring to the table which was an interesting conversation that I had yesterday in an event that I attended, it's the mastery side of things. I think this is one underpinning challenge across a lot of organisations and people where their skills and experience comes from certifications, which is great. I do certifications to o. Education courses, all of that stuff out there and it's coming from a good intention to, to build their own capabilities.
[00:16:40] However when the rubber meets the road, those things may not be as practical and you tend under stress and pressure of delivery to just go and solutionize. And that's where I kind of looked at what trips transformation leaders and change managers a lot is that they're reacting to what's happening.
[00:17:03] They're not being proactive and it's not that they don't want to it's just that ability to have that mastery of the practice. So you can have a very interesting, integrated, holistic but also practical toolkit that allows you to be two three steps ahead of everybody else. Change and transformation is a different ballgame altogether because you need to live in the future for a bit.
[00:17:30] You cannot be at the same level of thinking that everybody is on because you're basically going against the status quo. If you are in that status quo, how can you change it? You have to be, you have to have a vision of What is the next, what's that next vision is going to look like. What's the outcome.
[00:17:46] So mastery is one challenge that I find to underpin, not just the organisational efforts to do change and transformation, but also the actual leaders, the individuals who are sitting there. As we mentioned before, it can be a very lonely place thinking about what is the right next thing to do here and before they know it, somebody comes in with, that's what we're going to do. Didn't get the chance to talk about it. Didn't get a chance to think how can I be proactive when I'm constantly being bombarded with all these things? It takes a level of mastery and up leveling the thinking of those individual leaders to be able to master the present, but also have a very good handle on how we're going to get there, that bridge into the future. I call it mastery.
[00:18:36] Kate: Oh, I love that. mastery is something I'm very, very interested in. I agree. I think that learning about the process, the step by step of a model of change management is probably useful in terms of getting a shared language as a foundational kind of understanding the theory around certain things but may not be as useful in real life when the shit is hitting the fan. And even if it's not hitting the fan when you are dealing with humans and emotions and culture and things that aren't written down, aren't kind of official types of things that really weave an organisation together and that join people together. Yeah, I, I agree. Let's go back to that kind of lonely place I'm lonely in the organisation, because, because you're right, I'm living in the future. I'm not where the mainstream is. People might be thinking I'm a bit strange. What can I do in that space? Okay.
[00:19:38] Jess: That's a great question. And that's really what was a driver for me in my own business. to move from being in a one to one coaching space to group, to community. If I can give it a word to reduce that loneliness, it would be community. People need to speak to each other that have similar problems so they know that it's not unique. I think one of the burdens of being lonely is that you're thinking, Oh, is just my program. It is about, it's me. This is how it is. It doesn't exist anywhere else. And that kind of uniqueness in, in that sense is not a good thing. Other people have been through that or are going through that.
[00:20:19] Having this conversation, knowing that you're supported, knowing that yes, we see you, that's common, it's not you, there are other things at play, but also not just community, but empowerment. Okay, you've got that, we see you, we hear you, we've got, we're having a conversation. How can I help you in that community format to that?
[00:20:40] Sometimes we are in situations where We know what needs to happen, but our hands are tied. We can't do much about it. I think that for people who want to spread their wings and want to have an impact, that's not a good place to be. And they always beat themselves up.
[00:20:59] What could I have done better? Having that community support, but also gives you that enough tension to grow and know what to do next time. And that constant growth and evolution of your practice and the way you think and your maturity and how you, how people perceive you, what you do, your language, how you show up, is all goodness when it comes to reducing that loneliness, empowering you and allowing you to even spread your wings even more.
[00:21:32] Kate: you've just said something so interesting in the I agree. Community is a great pathway for that. And you just used the words enough tension for growth. I think that's a really interesting point. I just wanted to pull it out for people. So if you're listening to this, you can kind of chew that over and reflect on whether or not there is enough tension for your growth going on at the moment in your practice, in the way that you're working. Tell me about, so we've mentioned community, we've talked about mastery. For people that are kind of coming into this space of change and transformation, if they're interested in accelerating their careers in this space, what, what recommendations do you make for people?
[00:22:14] Jess: I think the first thing it comes from the leader, the person themselves, that realization that I'm not happy with my own status quo. And I want to do more. I want to be more and do more here. And I follow it up with be more straight away because it's not about, you know, working 16 hours a day. It's not about that.
[00:22:34] It's about having an impact with the least amount of effort that you can do. And, and obviously maximize your, your impact. So it has to come from you that you're not content with your status quo. Being open as well to being challenged, have that healthy tension for growth is, is absolutely important.
[00:22:54] Once you've made that decision in you that you know what? I think I need to open up my perspectives, see what else I can do. Once you've made that decision. As we've, we've mentioned, of course, and I will not discard certifications to kind of get that structure and language, at least to know what's going on in this industry, what's out there which is a good start. But as we've mentioned, when the rubber meets the road, they may not be as practical to actually do them and that inspired me to move to offering the community, people of change and transformation, mastery. What is that playbook look like, but not the playbook that you would just look at and saying, yeah, seems logical.
[00:23:39] It resonates and that's it because that's not good enough. Actually have the tools, the techniques, the questions, the perspectives, the mindsets that allows you to have that mastery, have that toolkit. Ability to be able to be proactive and two, three steps ahead. Also having that community of people who share the same experiences with you. They're willing to have their give and take way of doing things. They want to see everybody succeed because we know that the tide raises all boats. And at the same time allow you with the tools and techniques and the conversations and as you grow into your own career to be able to influence.
[00:24:20] So it's good to have mastery, it's good to be supported, but if you can't influence your way through, you're going to be stuck into that role for 20 years. And you're just going to be moving to more of the same, which is easy to do. Moving from project manager, another project, man, another project, man, another project manager for 25 years.
[00:24:36] And that might be fine for people, for some, some of the leaders and some of the people, which is amazing and great. However, I'm talking to the people who just want to do a little bit more. They want to be that executive in the future. I want to drive that change and transformation. How do I get to that level and do it faster and better?
[00:24:54] So having that community mastery having that ability to influence and also playing to your strengths, I cannot stress enough. Yes, you might have the title of a change manager transformation leader, great. But there are things that comes natural to you, and if you're not harnessing that you're just making things a lot harder for yourself.
[00:25:16] So how do you play to your strengths and change and transformation is such a big domain that you can always create your own niche within that domain. But knowing what the domain is, knowing what your strengths are and what are the niches out there? So you can have a proper positioning within your change and transformation that allows you to grow is definitely something I focus a lot on, on my upcoming people of transformation community and program.
[00:25:40] Kate: Yeah, I love that take. That is such a great piece of advice for people to shape your practice, your signature practice around your strength. That's amazing. Now, just tell me, how can people connect with you and keep the conversation going? We'll link to everything in the show notes for folks. Is LinkedIn the best place for people to connect with you?
[00:26:02] Jess: definitely LinkedIn. I practically live in LinkedIn. So people can reach out to me, Jess Tayel there's only one of me, which is good, you'll, you'll see me there. Connect with me send me a message, ask questions, follow my newsletter. I post three times a week information about, that would help you accelerate your career, your influence, and your mastery in the change and transformation space.
[00:26:26] Also, I'm launching People of Transformation, which I just talked about, which talks about mastery, influence, and growth. That it has all these three elements there as the foundational pillars of, of People of Transformation. And they can check that out at peopleoftransformation. com. Couldn't be simpler.
[00:26:43] I'm also, I'm doing the launch for people of transformation on the 23rd of October. So now enrollment is open for founding members and would be great to see people joining in and turn that into a movement.
[00:26:56] Kate: thank you so much for joining me today, Jess, I've loved this conversation. So many nuggets for folks in there who are thinking about their career, how they move through an organisation and work with an organisation through change. Thank you.
[00:27:08] Jess: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
[00:27:10]