[00:00:00] Kate: [00:01:08] How many women leading change are there in your organization right now? If it's not in the range of 40 to 60 percent or if you would like to elevate your career yourself, You're going to love today's episode. I'm excited to have Gillian Fox on the show. Now, in case you haven't heard of her, Gill is the founder of Your Brilliant Career and the Gillian Fox group.
[00:01:30] She is an author, moderator, keynote speaker, and senior executive coach leading gender diversity programs for some of the largest businesses in Australia. And through her work, Gill helps executive leaders in major organizations. Elevate women into leadership positions. she has been designing and delivering leadership programs for over 10 years.
[00:01:51] And today she's recognized as the leading business educator, in this space, as well as. think an expert in all areas of women's career advancement. She's the program lead and managing director of the Gillian Fox group. And she's passionate about showing emerging female leaders, the steps and strategies that are required to forge their own paths.
[00:02:12] I got to say straight away. Even though I just said all of that, and there was a lot of focus on women, this episode isn't just for women. This is a fascinating conversation that's packed with practical tips for anyone who wants to advance their career. Gil and I talk about the link between fostering diverse leadership, now specifically advancing women in leadership roles is what we focus on.
[00:02:35] But like I said, This is for everyone. we talk about the link between that and creating a more high performing, change ready organisational culture. We really get into it. We cover so much stuff. We talk about what Gill calls the missing women. Oh, terrifying term. And why this can be a big problem for organisations.
[00:02:55] How to articulate the value that you're contributing. The difference between mentoring and sponsoring and Gil explains this so clearly it was a lightbulb moment for me She made it really practical how to get a sponsor or more additional sponsors and exactly what sponsors are looking for in potential sponsees and the simple strategy for senior leaders who want to advance women in leadership roles within their organisations.
[00:03:22] Oh gosh, I loved this conversation. And in fact, I've already actioned one of the practical tips that Gil shares. I know that you're going to find some golden nuggets too. So let's dive in.
[00:03:33] Gill, hello. Thank you for joining me on today's episode. I'm so happy that we're chatting.
[00:03:39] Gillian: Oh, Kate, it is a pleasure to be here. I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.
[00:03:43] Kate: Oh, me too, me too. you know, I'm always so curious about a day in the life of an executive coach, a career coach. Can you tell me about what does a normal day look like for you? Is there a normal day?
[00:03:58] Gillian: there isn't for me anymore because you know, I, I coach and I'm training and we're doing marketing. You know, it is the life of a small business owner. You're, you're a jack of all trades and more multidimensional than you ever envisaged. But I think with coaching and I love coaching a little bit more selective as the years have transpired and do a little bit less.
[00:04:20] But coaching does require you to. Be well prepped and you have to follow up and then you have to have high energy in between. And when I'm prepping a new client for an executive coaching program, I often say to them, I'm going to come in with great energy and I want you to do the same. So be organised, and get ready to rock and roll.
[00:04:42] We're not going to shoot the breeze for ages about personal life, but we're actually going to get to work. And I love that mentality of, you know, really diving in and having that attitude of, well, let's, let's do some good work together in this session.
[00:04:57] Kate: Oh, how powerful to set the scene in advance so people know, you know, what's expected from them, the energy that's expected from them straight up. That's cool.
[00:05:07] Gillian: Well, I think the other thing sometimes, you know, if people haven't been coached and a lot of people that I've coached over the years, haven't had a coach. So it's an unfamiliar experience. The expectation can be, Oh, well, they're going to do all the talking. It's going to be like a workshop, but it's not like that at all.
[00:05:25] And I actually think, you know, when I think about my best coaching sessions in terms of driving results with people in the corporate sector, it's actually a combo of coaching and mentoring, Kate.
[00:05:36] They actually need a different perspective on something. And that's where I think good coaches have the business and strategic acumen that you acquire from being a leader in the business environment, having that lived experience and perspective of the plane and the pleasure
[00:05:55] Kate: Yes.
[00:05:55] Gillian: that kind of journey.
[00:05:57] Kate: Yeah. Being in the trenches. I agree. love that there is a blend of coaching and mentoring that's required. Of course it is. That makes complete sense. I know that you, these days, focus a lot on career development for women who are moving into more leadership or even senior leadership kinds of roles.
[00:06:19] And I'm just going to ask the question come out straight away. Other than meeting, diversity quotas in your organisation Is it actually important for women to be in leadership positions?
[00:06:32] Gillian: it's a good question to put out there because I think sometimes we just blanket these things, you know what I mean? And, you know, one thing I've learned over the years, and it was such an interesting insight for me. It was probably about 15 years ago, to be honest with you, um, as a leadership developer back then, probably not as much focus on women's career advancement, but as a leadership developer, I had to realise That not everyone wants to keep climbing up Cape
[00:07:02] Kate: Yeah.
[00:07:02] Gillian: I actually learned that lesson through my husband who had a leadership role and was incredibly unhappy and he reverted back after a lot of thinking and reconciliation around it to an individual contributor style role.
[00:07:17] He is enormously valued and as happy as can be and watching that whole process. unfold made me realise that, you know what I mean? Both are good. There's no right or wrong. Success is different for all of us. so I don't think that should be, what makes someone talented or successful in a corporation.
[00:07:39] I think the limitation though is. For those that do have an appetite to be ambitious and maybe strive for that C suite, we've still got to get some more enablers within the organisation to support that journey. but there are still a lot of limitations that hinder that progress.
[00:07:59] Kate: tell me more about that. Tell me about the limitations
[00:08:03] Gillian: Well, you see, when you look at a lot of the data and we know the top-line data around the pay gap and the lack of women on boards and, you know, 19 per cent female CEOs, like we have all of that, but then in the organisations, you know, we have I call them the missing women, where they, they kind of opt out of going to that next level of senior leadership.
[00:08:28] And so the question is, why are they opting out? why aren't they choosing to pursue that? And one reason might be it's just personal. they don't want to make any more sacrifices. Maybe they want to spend more time with their family or personal interests or whatever, which is absolutely fine.
[00:08:44] Maybe in the organisation they look up, they see other female leaders. They don't like the style of those female leaders. like the rest of the blokes up there. And there's no diversity in that, right? When everyone acts the same and they're like, well, that's not inspiring. I don't think I want to become that.
[00:09:03] I think other limitations are around sponsorship. So we know from the research that people sponsor. People like them with careers like them. So if you do have a senior top level, that are men, they're more likely subconsciously to sponsor people like them. And we need sponsors to get promoted. Like we all need someone in our corner to advocate for us and say, actually.
[00:09:31] She would be excellent for that role just to get the chance. So I think there's, I really do think there's a lot of things that we can do to enable it. when you have that support from the top level, it just makes a world of difference.
[00:09:46] Okay. And I'm talking from the CEO, you know what I mean? Like they, they have to own it. Otherwise, it's an entity that sits over there and you hope that it has an impact, but it's not going to be the kind of impact that drives long term change in the way that you want.
[00:10:03] Kate: I have an interest, obviously, in developing kind of future ready organisations and I have conversations with people about what they can do inside their organisation to prepare their organisations for what's coming next. Things outside in the world are changing, so their business needs to change, their company needs to change and I'm curious, do you think there's a link between Introducing more diversity at senior levels and having that greater resilience for change or the performance of the organisation in the future.
[00:10:41] Gillian: Yeah, I do. I planning for that, anticipating that, how you're going to do that, how you're going to own that as a result for your organisation.
[00:10:50] I just think it's the smart thing to do. Okay. And, we know that it produces. better financial results for organisations. There was a study done. It was with the EY and one of the universities. And it showed that when they had leaders of female leaders of 30% Or more. they earn 6 per cent more to their net profit. It's big. So, you know, when you talk about like, you know, navigating change and anticipating, is this an important component? Yeah. I think it's an important component.
[00:11:22] Kate: A 6 per cent difference to net profit is really significant. We're not just talking about kind of the warm fuzzy stuff. that's serious stuff. other particular leadership traits that women are more likely to possess or more comfortable what differences does that introduce
[00:11:41] Gillian: I think women are very intuitive. I think we're good listeners and joining the dots. and I think that can count for A lot as well.
[00:11:49] You know, there's a lot of research that says that we value the relationship, we're more emotional. I think there are a lot of different traits that can't be. Made as generic, but there are nuances there and it's just not about gender really when you think about it.
[00:12:05] It's just that variety of human styles that when you bring it to the table, together it produces innovation and bigger results. that's the magic we need to be chasing.
[00:12:19] Kate: Hmm. So if I'm, I'm convinced I'm a senior leader, I would like there to be more diversity and more women in senior leadership roles in my organisation. What can I do about it?
[00:12:32] Gillian: Well, I think one of the lowest hanging fruit in it all is making sure that your female talent are recognised. So going back to that earlier point around sponsorship, because you've got this unconscious bias piece where Let's say we're two guys, okay, and we ride together every Tuesday and Thursday and I'm the more senior one, and we're having all these organic conversations every week, like there's got to be some advantages to you in having that, and you're going to be on my radar so much more, right.
[00:13:04] Women will kind of whinge a little bit about this around, well, how do I get access? You know, I want to have the visibility and opportunity to connect and showcase my value to senior leaders, but I haven't got that advantage. my response to that is to get good at showcasing how you can contribute to the business.
[00:13:26] And, and having the right conversations, like don't, don't just whinge about that. Do stuff that is in your control. And you know, when you know how to demonstrate that contribution effectively, of course, you're going to get noticed more.
[00:13:41] Kate: let's talk about that some more. How can I better demonstrate and showcase my value to the organisation?
[00:13:47] Gillian: think it comes down to a couple of things while making sure that you're working on the right stuff, being very clear that what you're doing, and you might have your head down tail up working like a complete lunatic, but you want to make sure what you're doing is aligned with what's important in the organisation and the long term results of that organisation.
[00:14:05] So you want to be value adding in the right way. And sometimes you need to do a bit of research around that before you dive in. And I think the other component And I think women struggle a lot here is how you articulate it, Kate, you know, because I think we're so conditioned to be very humble and, you know, socialise not to make a big deal of things.
[00:14:26] And I don't think you need to turn into this. bragette to showcase your value. I think it is about learning the business skills in how to articulate what you're contributing. it's just so important for women to own that as a skill to take them through that next part of their career.
[00:14:44] Cause you think about careers and you will know this from your own experience, Kate, like there is a chunk of your career. and it just takes care of itself. people look up to you. They give you a nice feedback. It feels so lovely. You get promoted. Everything feels good.
[00:14:58] And then you kind of enter the next phase and it feels a little bit more political. The stakeholders are trickier. You get less feedback, even though you're working harder, producing bigger results. And. If you don't have the right people around you and that self leadership piece, right, it can make you wobble it's kind of that old adage, isn't it?
[00:15:20] What got you here? Won't get you there. And so you need this new skillset and part of that new skillset is being able to demonstrate and communicate your strategic and business acumen and your contribution to the business. And I think when women realise that and then get an appetite for it, they've got a much better chance of not only feeling more confident in themselves, but elevating themselves in the organisation in the way that they want.
[00:15:48] Kate: Ooh, such good tips. Thank you. Can you give me some practical examples of how someone might better articulate their contribution? I'm thinking about in meetings or what other kinds of channels or opportunities that women could be thinking about opportunities for them to better articulate their contribution.
[00:16:10] Gillian: like, imagine you're going to work really early and you've got lots to do and you get in the elevator that morning or by your lonesome. And then at the last second, someone very senior that you would love to impress steps in the elevator and you've got this time in the elevator together to.
[00:16:27] Connect, I don't know, maybe impress a little bit, but this is normally what happens. Kate, you know, busy day, cold morning, isn't it? And then you just with this long, horrible pause waiting for the lift to open. And then thank God it opens and you get out, have a nice day and it's all over. And, you're very forgettable in that moment.
[00:16:46] Like you're just very forgettable. You know, a lot of the CEOs that I work with, one in particular comes to mind. He is the CEO of TAL, which is a life insurance company. Brilliant CEO. We've done some great work there for the last three years, if he bumps heads with someone, he'll say, what are you working on right now? and my point is you need to have some stuff up your sleeve for this. Because a lot of the moments are not going to be constructed by you. They're going to be the impromptu moments that happen in the business. So you've got to have that thing up your sleeve of what you're working.
[00:17:17] It's like having an elevator pitch up your sleeve around what you're, you're working on. And then in the meetings and stuff, of course you have that opportunity. And I think people look at it in such extreme ways that they have to. Talk about it in a way that feels inauthentic for them. But I think you need to find your own style. I've just written the guide it's coming out soon and it it's got scripts
[00:17:42] on how you can basically do that self-promotion piece in a way that is congruent with who you are. And some of the scripts in a are little bite-sized pieces, like little throwaway lines, like little drops of influence, Kate, that showcase your value. And are those a more deeper dive? You know what I mean? You're in the meeting and you really want to demonstrate the deep value that, that you've contributed. I do a lot of scripts with my free stuff because scripts. Scripts are helpful,
[00:18:14] Kate: Yeah, I agree. I have a lot of Success sharing scripts with change leaders and, it is very helpful for people because they can still shape it to make it their own. But it's a roadmap. It's a very clear roadmap for people. That's exciting. We will definitely link to those scripts that you mentioned for folks.
[00:18:34] And I love. that idea of being ready for these impromptu moments, that it doesn't need to be a high stress, formal, in your business suit, you've prepared for three weeks kind of moment it's not an interview
[00:18:47] Gillian: And I love the idea of women bringing enthusiasm to that communication process. So, you know, if the question is thrown at them, you know, what are you working on now? It's like, Oh my goodness, I'm working on X and, you know, what I'm really loving is blah. And, you know, or it's been so exciting to see the progress of blah.
[00:19:03] Or, you know, in two months we're doing this. And I think that enthusiasm is such a beautiful thing, you know, it's the energy that comes off that as well conveys a message to that other person too.
[00:19:16] Kate: Conveys your personal investment in the work. Yes. Thank you. That's such wonderful tips and I understand that implicitly through what you've said there is the idea of being able to and seeing the linkage between what you're working on and the bigger picture, the goals for the organisation and really kind of framing whatever it is you're excited about in those terms So Is there a difference between these ideas of the concept of mentorship and sponsorship?
[00:19:47] Gillian: Yes. They're very different.And I always, always try to make that point because mentors, you know, they'll give you perspective. They're great at sharing advice and experience and knowledge. And then sponsors are the people who will open the doors in the decision making room. Maybe they'll protect you, you know, for in a meeting. And they said, well, Kate's project's not doing too well. And then someone jumps in and says, well, actually, I don't think you have the whole context for that. That project is absolutely where it needs to be right now.
[00:20:18] So they can protect you. And of course I can say she would be awesome for that step up opportunity or stretch opportunity. And my favorite expression, Kate is mentors skill you up. But sponsors, they move you up.
[00:20:32] Kate: Oh, that's a good distinction. Yes.
[00:20:35] Gillian: So, you know, if you want to get promoted, then you need sponsors. And I think sponsors, regardless of that, to be quite honest, even though that's pretty helpful they're handy if you are in an environment that is prone to a lot of change because you, when there's a lot of change and restructure and all of that, so many of us are vulnerable in that moment, you know, maybe the people that looked out for you are on the move and everyone's looking inward. worried about their own existence and future.
[00:21:07] And if you don't have sponsors that are vouching for you, it doesn't matter how good your performance reviews have been for the last two years, you may not survive. So sponsors are very important. And I think there's something that all of us need to attract for the rest of our career.
[00:21:24] Kate: Is there a particular approach or a tip that you can share about how we can attract more sponsors?
[00:21:30] Gillian: Yeah. It's a great question. So there's an equation to, there's a fantastic book by Sylvia Ann Hewlett. She's written a couple of books. One is called Forget a Mentor, Find a Sponsor. Such a cool
[00:21:42] title.
[00:21:43] but she talks about this formula she calls them, the protege, which is the sponsee versus the sponsor.
[00:21:49] So we know as the sponsee, we get. someone vouching for us, someone who's willing to take some collateral risk really to their reputation. Cause if I vouch for, Sally over here and Sally doesn't rise to the occasion, well, that's actually going to damage my reputation. So, you know, it's, it's much easier to say, will you mentor me.
[00:22:12] You can say yes or no, but you can't ask someone to sponsor you. You actually have to earn it. So it's a much more high risk state. But what did they want? They want three things, according to Sylvia Ann Hewlett. First of all, they want you to be good at your job. Yep. So produce good work, have that quality.
[00:22:29] And most of the women I work with, they can just put a big juicy tick next to that immediately. Cause they're, they're great. The next one is. They want loyalty, which I found so interesting and, and loyalty is, you know, engagement, being interested staying focused on not just the relationship, but the input and work around it.
[00:22:50] And the last one I would probably say is the most important thing and it is the value add. So you think of anyone that has sponsored you in your career and you will have had sponsors, people who have given you opportunities. That relationship was probably one where you added a lot of value to them along the way you, you did things that contributed to the things that were important to them. And you need to be a little bit strategic around that. You need to understand, well, what is important to them? And then am I in a position to do that? And the other thing I often say to women, like don't try and cultivate a sponsorship relationship if they don't have a reputation for supporting others.
[00:23:33] Because if they haven't got a track record of putting themselves out there and supporting others, if you've got a choice, don't invest in that.
[00:23:42] Kate: Yeah. Direct your time and effort and resources somewhere more fruitful. Be strategic. Yeah. As
[00:23:48] you said. Thank you. They're great tips. that loyalty piece is interesting because that sounds like there's an investment in the long term in this relationship. When, when a sponsor is vouching for you, they're anticipating Good things for a long time.
[00:24:05] Gillian: Yeah. Well, when I think of some of the sponsors in my world today, Kate, they are people that I met in business 10, 15 years ago. and they recommend me and I think they're, they are people that see my potential where sometimes I don't as well. And they have been instrumental in, in helping me grow in my business and supporting me, but they are very enduring long relationships.
[00:24:31] Kate: Yes, when I reflect on sponsors I have, I notice the same thing, just now as I think about it. How very long term those relationships are. You know, people that I might have met 12 or more years ago and worked with them in kind of a very different capacity than I would now.
[00:24:52] Gillian: on the flip side of that, I started my career at News Corp and I remember one day my boss saying to me, Gillian, I want you to spend some time with, was the head of magazines at the time. They need some ideas on blah, blah, blah. So I didn't think anything of it.
[00:25:07] Sat down with this woman and her two AC, maybe for about 90 minutes, shared some ideas. It was a lovely. Conversation, but kind of walked away, forgot about it completely. Okay. You never know how those unexpected meetings are going to turn out. And then five months later, that same woman, she left News Corp to head up the second largest magazine publisher in Australia.
[00:25:31] And she invited me to be her commercial director.
[00:25:34] Kate: Wow.
[00:25:35] Gillian: it was a really great opportunity for me. And the whole point of that is she became a sponsor in that one. Meeting. And this could happen to anyone. So sometimes it is a long build of credibility. And then sometimes, you know, there are these moments in business where you just get to build your credibility fast and that's the right situation and everything meets.
[00:26:03] And I think it's such a great reminder that we're always on the radar.
[00:26:08] Kate: Yes, that's, that is a very powerful reminder that every connection point you have today, this week, this month, every meeting, every engagement is an opportunity for a relationship like that to develop.
[00:26:25] So if I am a board member, what are the things that I should 12 months when I'm thinking about. How we're directing our investment in the full sense of that, not just money, but our time and our focus in building up women leaders in the organisation. Are there some kind of big trends that you see in the industry that I should be mindful of coming, knocking in 2024, 2025?
[00:26:56] Gillian: Well, you know, the Albanese government introduced, I think it was last year, this opportunity to be transparent with pay increase. I think they're the sort of conversations that should be happening at board level. Should we be doing that? I think the board's responsibility is to be asking the probing questions to see what's right for their organisation at that time, but to be actioned, and orientated about it.
[00:27:21] And organisations are at different levels. of their progress around this, you know, you look at construction or, you know, the science industry, like there's a under representation of women and they need to work really hard. I, I think a lot of the law firms have done quite well in that regard. You know, they have a very clear recruitment strategy at the front end.
[00:27:41] And even though they don't have the ideal representation of women at the partnership level, they're still very committed to improving it. And I think boards need to be open to what's happening in the market and not to inwardly focus on the organisation to get their ideas and insights because if you've got a low benchmark.
[00:28:04] You're not going to be ambitious. Are you like every little micro improvement is going to be valued, but maybe you should be being a bit more audacious in that organisation and setting some bigger goals to really support you. And to answer the other part of your question, Kate, like what's, what sort of trends are really working for, for people?
[00:28:26] I think the biggest thing that works to be quite honest, and there's so many. Different ways to drive gender diversity and organisation is actually the leaders owning it. Like to me, that's the biggest thing that it comes down to. Whatever your strategy is, it's having everyone believe and be aligned in that, in the top half.
[00:28:46] Yeah. So they can role model and communicate it and advocate for it all the way through.
[00:28:52] Kate: yes. So if you're a leader in an organisation and this is something that you are interested, you see the benefits of which is undeniable. It sounds like there's hard evidence. I'm going back to the stuff we talked about earlier with the net profit. If you're serious about increasing diversity and inclusion and making the way for more women to step into more senior leadership roles than it is about walking the talk on that and keeping that top of mind and sharing that that is top of mind for you. Is that what you're saying?
[00:29:23] Gillian: Absolutely. I think they need to be just as responsible, you know, as the diversity and inclusion team sitting over there driving the plan. I think the leaders really need to, to own it too.
[00:29:36] Kate: Yeah, you can't, it's not something that you can outsource. Thank you. Well, Gil, how can people keep this conversation going with you? I feel like I could just keep asking questions all day. what's the best way to get in contact with you?
[00:29:49] Gillian: well, the best way we've spoken a lot today about the corporate programs that we do, and we actually have two websites, not to confuse things. The Gillian Fox group is the corporate stuff, and then we also have your brilliant career, which is where we run two really fantastic women's career advancement programs, their public programs.
[00:30:07] I'll also include the link to the free guide on how to get better at self promoting and including the scripts and the other free guide that might be interesting to people just talking about all of these things. Like I think women are notorious people pleasers too, Kate, and we find it really hard to say no sometimes.
[00:30:25] So I've recently written a guide on that as well on how to say no, and it's got some scripts. So let's pop that into, and it might be a good resource for people.
[00:30:34] Kate: We will link to everything in the show notes so it's really easy for people to get to and find will link to all of your contact details as well. Gil, thank you so much for joining me today for this fascinating conversation.
[00:30:45] Gillian: Oh, it's been a pleasure. I love your energy and I love what you're doing, Kate. And thank you so
[00:30:50] Kate: Oh, likewise. Likewise. Oh my gosh, what a compliments party.