Ep 60: Anita George – In praise of the sponge

Sponges are not only a great help in the shower, but some of the oldest, simplest animals on earth. If you haven’t yet discovered how fascinating and vitally important to a healthy planet they are, Dr Anita George is about to blow your mind.

Anita only learned to swim when she did her masters in marine biology and as the first female scientist in India to get a diving certificate, she has now carried out over 300 research dives. With a particular focus on taxonomy, she has personally named 30 sponges new to science. This is an enlightening, educational and hopeful conversation with a passionate expert in her field which we are sure will gain some new supporters for the cause of the humble sponge.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the Field Notes Podcast from Arosha. I'm Joe Swinney, and I'm Director of Communications for Orosha International.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

And I'm Rick Fah, and I've been with Arosha for 20 years as part of the Orosha Canada team.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

For many of us, the rapid loss of our planet, biodiversity, increasing inequality and poverty, and the changing climate can feel overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

So it's our hope that in this podcast you will hear some remarkable and original perspectives from people we know who are working to care for creation around the world.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Sponges are interestingly very sturdy. Unlike many other corals that strive to survive in spite of all the pressures. They host a lot of other animals. The sponges are the best hotels underwater. Anybody can come in and live peacefully and go. So it teaches a lot of things. So keep on studying them.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Welcome back to Field Notes Podcast, where today we've had a really interesting conversation with Dr. Anita George. Anita is a pioneer in the field of marine biology as a woman in India and a passionate advocate for sponges. Rick, what did you notice or what would you like to highlight for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yes, well, sponges are not what first come to my mind when I think of marine biology, and yet I think it epitomizes a little bit of what stood out to me in this interview. Anita is giving voice to the voiceless, or is giving is kind of putting her finger on something that what other otherwise wouldn't be noticed, uh kind of calling our attention to a corner of God's creation that's that's wonderful in its own way. And I see that uh her her kind of her her ability to bring us into that is one of the things I most appreciate today. How about you, Joe?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

I I love I love hearing from people who are passionate about anything and hearing them um describe what it is that has caught caught their affection. Um I also was delighted to hear that sponges are doing well in today's today's world. It's not often that you hear that that things are actually, you know, given all the pressures, not doing so badly.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yeah, they're robust.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Well, let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Um, Anita, we're really excited to have time with you today. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Thank you, John. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I'm happy to have later. We always start with asking our guests to give us a bit of a flavour of where they are because we're fortunate enough to have conversations with people from lots of different places around the world, and it gives us a little chance to try and visualize, experience a little bit of what you do. So could you tell us about one of your favorite places outdoors near where you live that you're often visiting?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Um, I live in uh Trivandrum, India. So it's like the Western Ghats. So it's uh close to the sea. So I love the places around Kovalum. Um that's Hawaii Beach, um, which is very nice to go and sit, have a nice time, and also Virinium, that's also nearby to Kobulum. So these are all beaches I love.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Now I understand I don't know you very well, Anita. We've only just met, but my understanding is that you spent a lot of time in the ocean uh as a marine biologist, but I also learned that you couldn't always swim. And so it was only in the middle of your studies. I would have thought for a marine biologist, swimming would be a bit of a uh necessary skill to acquire, but it sounds like you acquired that relatively late. I'm curious, tell us a little bit about that, and in particular, I can imagine if I've only encountered the ocean from the shore for most of my life. What's it like to suddenly be in it? And and what do you discover? Uh, how do how do your how does your view of the world change once you're actually in this thing, not just like looking at the the water?

SPEAKER_02 4:51

That's a very good question. Thank you for asking that. Say, uh, as you said, I was not another um ocean person and I don't know swimming till I got into masters. Initially it was uh scary, um but but the learning is like the curiosity and the interesting thing is I need to swim, then only I can go for diving. So my interest is like to get into uh you know learning the new skill um during my master's. So within 12 days I need to go for learn the swimming, but I was comforta comfortable um after drinking a lot of water in the first few uh days. Then by on the fifth day or something, I was cool and I started floating. So that was the uh best thing to overcome that fear, to you know, uh to come out of the fear, then my focus was more into yes, I need to clear this, then only I can uh learn diving.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I've heard it said that the ocean to humans in some ways is more foreign than the moon. Like it's just a place that we don't typically as a species go. So I can imagine breaking that threshold. Like that's the thing I look at, and now I'm now I'm in it would be quite uh would open up a whole world. Um yeah, and to do that as an adult, it's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

I've got quite a paralyzing fear of live fish. And um, for the first time in my life last year, I'm 48 years old. I went snorkeling, and I was so overwhelmed by the beauty and this this place I hadn't accessed before that I was in bits, I was very tearful and overwhelmed by my own emotions being able to see and experience. It was like flying over this, yeah, because like you say, you can't see it from the surface, and suddenly it's it's there and you're in and among it.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

So same thing, it's uh uh seeing the coral reef ecosystem or the the whole uh coral reefs is uh interesting. It's really because you always hear about that and learn uh in marine biology what is it, how it is formed, and then once you get closer and see that, you will see that it is uh interesting habitat, and it is uh all these different fish, sea cucumbers, many other things, uh all associated all animals, how they are linked together.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Have there been particular challenges related to the fact that you are a woman in a scientific field and a particularly adventurous scientific field?

SPEAKER_02 7:57

It was it was not uh you know a normal thing that a female uh researcher to get into the water and learn swimming and do some adventurous kind of thing. It was not that very normal in India. Um did anyone tell you it was inappropriate or try and stop you? No, that is uh that is a general uh um kind of statement that uh even at home or in in in the university or anywhere they say, oh, it is dangerous and it is not safe, not safe for women. Women couldn't, you know, they couldn't do that. It's very, very hard uh to carry the cylinder and going into the water. It's not that easy. You cannot, you know, so they it's it was there in the mindset all all along, but luckily everything came into place when my eagerness and passion uh when I saw Bob getting into and uh water, and he said, like, are you interested in diving? So it all came and my uh uh uh PhD supervisor, he was very helpful, very uh motivating, and he said, like, why not? Why why can't you go? And uh so without a second thought, without even consulting with my family, I said like yes, I'm doing this. And um people people always took it as a motivating thing, and they said, like, oh, please come to our c you know uh college and talk to the women uh students, you know, girl students and uh motivate them. So then uh that was a breaking uh thing. So now after that it became so common that many students, after that, I hear that they used to go for diving and they want to do diving, at least like a discovered scuba, just to just to snorkel. Everything became so frequent. Before that, I never hear that very common in India.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

So you're the first, but definitely not the last.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

The you were you were already trained as a marine biologist back in uh well over 20 years ago now, in 2004, when the big Asian tsunami hit. I'm curious. I mean, I I assume you were not in the water in the middle of the tsunami, but but uh my understanding is you were able to do some studies following that, like in the aftermath. And I'm wondering what what that was like. What did you discover? What did you see that the I mean it's obviously a huge event for us humans, but what about the marine creatures and the marine ecosystem? Did it what did you see after such a such a big event?

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Yeah, yeah. The coral reef ecosystem that we ran are like patchy, beautiful colored corals, like orange, um, you know, red and black, and different kinds of corals uh on rocky areas. But after tsunami, you can see that the all the colored corals were totally gone and that places look totally barren. So some places you can see only rubles, so it's like full of rocks covered in that area. Same place we can we could see the difference, like what we have surveyed before.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Anita, I'm picturing here, like I live in a place that's got mountains, and what I'm picturing is a landslide. So the side of the mountain had you know forested trees, a landslide comes and suddenly it's like a it's just a bunch of rocky rubble. It would be kind of like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

It's totally heartbreaking to see that it's the the color place, like beautiful, bright colored place with full of sediments, a lot of sand, and it's completely dried, only rocks on that and no colors. So you can has it recovered. It's not has it recovered something. Um the thing is if it is if there is a tiny bit of animals living alive, then that place can come back to normalcy when the temperature and the water call water everything come back to come back to normalcy. But if there is no animal living alive, and if everything is washed off, that place is the end of the story.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

So yeah, that's a very hateful twist on the story that even if there is a small remnant of surviving ecology of an area, that's enough.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

But um, now and then there'll be a disaster so great, like that 2004 tsunami where sat an area is a just yeah, yes, the 2004 tsunami in several places it washed off completely, but in several places, like in the south, like wherever we survived different different locations, in some places, even a tiny bit of it, if it is nice. After 2000, um in 2005, we were diving, 2006, and we could see there is uh you know more animals and fish and other uh you know living uh animal, you know, uh coral reef ecosystem slowly coming back to normalcy.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

So and how long does it take to get back to how long does it take to get back to normalcy after that? Like if there was a remnant that survived, so it has a chance, does it take like two years, 10 years, 20 years to get back?

SPEAKER_02 13:56

No, uh even like you can see that within seven months or eight months, oh wow slowly when the temperature is fine slowly, it's like the growth is very slow, but we can see that uh life is coming back over there.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Um, I know that one of your big research focuses being sponges. And my only experience of sponges is using them to make soap really, really bubbly in the shower. So forgive me for my ignorance, but what do you love about the sponge and what is there to a sponge other than sort of squishy, a squishy thing?

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Sponges are the very primitive, primitive, the oldest animals on earth. Like they are and the studies from Massachusetts uh have revealed that scientifically they are the living fossils, so they are the oldest animals, very simple, they don't have brain, no circulatory system, no digestive system, nothing, no organs. Very, very simple. As you said, as you see, the squishy thing that you have in the um uh for shower is just the skeleton. What makes it an animal? Yeah, sponges comes in different shapes, different colors, and different sizes, so it can be a size of a pinhead small sponge encrusting or like uh attached on a coral tree or uh on a rocky or on a rock. It can be uh a thin surface, and also it comes under uh um like a massive barrel sponge. It's like a baby, a small baby can be put inside, and and they that's the oldest and the biggest sponge where if they people use that use the sponge as a butter, you know, that size.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Like a human baby can fit inside one sponge.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yes, yes. So that is one one whole sponge, so that is uh one colony and one species you can call, but that sponge will have hundreds and hundreds of microorganisms. So we can we can call one sponge means it is one colony, it is like a so even interestingly, I can say once you uh tear the sponge, put them in a water, they all can aggregate together very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Oh wow, they'll gather in like clump together and then become one again. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

What function do sponges serve in the ecosystem? Like what do they filter?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

They filter what they first thing they filter because they are simple, they they are good in um, you know, because of the filtering, the water gets nicely circulated, and the okay tiny tiny food particles will go up, come back, and all the fish and other uh animals living in the ocean can have a very good um you know new food. So it is like nutrients recycling. So it's like uh circulating the water. Then the second thing they have very good mic uh biotic compounds, they are sources of bioctic compounds, which is very help for medicines. So a lot of drugs are being taken from the uh from marine sponges. So the important thing is they have anti-cancer properties, anti-malarial, antifungal, anti whatnot, and anti uh antioxidant. So many interesting, you know, um features that they have, and the medicines from that is being extracted from sponges are already in the market. And now the major research happening is to control cancer.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Now I understand part of your study of sponges. I mean, it sounds like different people are studying all sorts of things from sponges, way more than I realized. Um, but I understand part of what you are you do is what's called taxonomy, which is I uh from a very novice perspective. I think of taxonomy as like sorting, cataloging, uh, helping us to see, you know, oh, wait a minute, there's a whole bunch of something, but to to help us understand, oh no, this is not just something, like there are actually kind of like individuals in there or um specifics, different species, and so on. In the case of sponges, why why is this sorting, this taxonomy, why is that important or helpful? What is it, what does it what does it do for us?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Simple, straightforward, quick answer is naming them, naming each sponge with a name. That is important because it has many species, many things. People do different research, they say, Oh, it has anti-cancer property. This is very good in my uh you know, micro microorganisms, but they don't know the name of the sponge. So, as a taxonomist, giving names is important, so we need to uh understand that how many how many sponges have you named? Um from India, uh it's about 250 sponges are already being uh sorted, and the thing is still more, it's like thousands of sponges are there, so wow. I need it's a whole big job that is uh lying ahead ahead of me.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Like my lab is full of yeah, you're like Adam in the Garden of Eden. You're giving names to the creatures. Do you where do you go? Is there a system for naming, or do you just come up with names? You like you're called Abigail or John.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

No, no. So interestingly, that's the thing. So we need to when we find a sponge, we need to check whether it has a matching thing with anywhere in the world, something similar to that, or is it completely new in India? So we need to see whether it is unique. So once it is unique, then I can name them based on who gave it. So I can name after the person who gave uh you know found that sponge, or if it is something uh uh from a new place, I can name it after that location if it is from that place, otherwise completely uh brand new name. It is if it is completely new to science, name it with a completely new name.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

You said there's been something like 250 that have been named, but thousands more yet to be named. How many have you named? Like, I want to get some sense of like, is this something I don't understand? Like, I want to get a sense of the scale of the task. It sounds like a big job.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

So, so this is like see, I'm focusing from the entire Indian coast completely. Uh so wherever I get collections of sponges, even the students or somebody doing any kind of research, they can send it to me, and I need to keep records of like from uh a Gulf of Kush to Gulf of uh uh you know Orisha, the whole entire stretch of India. So each location I have named like pockets. So my I during my PhD, I got a total number of like 250 uh sponges totally that has been you know finished and after that I keep getting samples so from different different locations.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

But I understand that to be like identified, like you've identified these ones. Okay, these are already on record, but how many sponges have you given the name to? Like if the history will say I need a I need to name this one.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Um yeah, that is unique. Like you mean that traditionally new records. The the new the new records are around like uh 31 is unique to uh like science, uh especially uh brand new. The that is in uh name 30. Yeah, you know, new to science.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Um Anita, how how are your sponges doing? Um a lot of things at the moment are not thriving, that's putting it mildly, because of um all of the different pressures we're aware of pollution, overconsumption, biodiversity, collapse generally, climate change. How are how are your little sponges doing?

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Sponges are interestingly very sturdy. So, unlike many other corals or anything, they strive to survive in spite of that. Is the best thing I learned from sponges. So, how uh simple animals thriving uh in spite of all the pressures?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

What what can be done to to help them? Like what do what can we do or what can humans do somewhere uh to actually encourage them?

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Less pollution. We should treat as you know, that's a different environment, different world underwater. This is like uh what I feel that is uh it's a unique world that has been given by God, nature, whatever people in different ways they say. So we uh human beings think that we take everything for granted. So all the uh industrial waste, all the oceans, everything are getting into that. And sponges are very simple uh animals, they keep filtering, so they keep gathering all these plastics and pollutions, metals, heavy metals, and uh even now the scary thing is the microplastics, so everything is there, so less pollution if we think uh and live mindful, most of the problems will be solved, and we can allow these guys to go and live peacefully.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

It's good to see you still smiling. There's obviously you've had moments of heartbreak and some challenges in working as a marine biologist and in the field of conservation, and we always like to end by gleaning from our guests what keeps them living hopefully, not not living with an attitude or a feeling of optimism necessarily, but a life that embodies hope. Do you have any practices or wisdom to share with us and encourage us in the various places that we live and work?

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Oh, I I I'm in love with this uh not only sponges with all the out-of-water animals. Like, so I it's like with with all these uh different pressures and everything, these guys live and try to uh you know grow and come up. So I think that naming them and studying them and uh to give uh updating these species from different different locations is uh is important to study and understand them more because people, many of them, they highly uh overlook these species because uh sometimes they just you know think, oh, it's just a sponge, what what it does, you know, what it what they do, because only when you know, when you understand them, we will take care of them. So once you understand, once you um see that behavior, each and every animal has their their own different different uh behaviors. So sometimes a simple example that I can say is like why a shrimp and a gobi and a and a fish are having an association because the shrimp is blind and the fish is just helping the shrimp, so that is a different family, two different family of or two different groups, and having a very good or loving association. So even even the sponges do the same thing, they host a lot of other animals, many, many fish, many tiny, tiny organisms that live inside the sponge. And I have published one paper that the sponges are the best hotels, best hotels underwater, because they don't charge anything, and anybody can come in and live peacefully and go, and uh so it teaches a lot of things. So only when you know what species, what's what uh conditions in in different different locations, keep on keep on studying them. So and it will enlighten you with many things. So that's what I feel that uh it's it's it's a very small, tiny thing that I have touched.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Niti, you are a great sponge evangelist and you have completely converted me. Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

I will look at I will never look at them the same again. My goodness.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Oh, thank you so much. At least, yeah, people always say, oh, it's just a sponge. No, it does a lot of interesting, it teaches a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

No one's gonna think, oh, that's just a sponge. I'll be like, wow, that is a sponge. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Fear the Nights podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

And there's more information about this podcast and Arasha at Arasha.org. So do join us next time.