Episode 12 The Data behind The Great Resignation

Ian Cook
As the VP of People Analytics at Visier Ian is responsible for overall direction and growth of Visier's People Analytics solutions.
Focus is internally on opportunities for developments to Visier's own set of products. And externally on identifying the right GTM partners.
Visier is currently the market leader in the People Analytics industry and the purpose of his role is to extend this position and drive growth for the business.


What you'll learn about in this episode
  As the pandemic wears on, a new challenge has emerged on the business front. A shift in a contract between companies and their most precious resource, people.  “The Great Resignation” as it’s been called.  Employees are rethinking what they want from their job and the number of people willing to make a change has been on the increase for months.   Will this awakening, reset and Resignation impact the Debt collection space? 

What’s causing this shift?
How can companies adapt to these changes?
Who is most at risk, and what does the future look like?   

In this episode we’ll dive into these questions with Ian Cook, a recognized and capable people leader with broad experience in driving organizational growth using employee metrics, and  machine learning,  to provide insight and understanding to lead transformational change.


Resources:

    Websites: https://www.visier.com/

 Company LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/visier-analytics/

 LinkedIn: Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianjcook/

Twitter https://twitter.com/visier?s=20

Additional Resources:

Fair Debt Episode Link

https://hbr.org/2021/09/who-is-driving-the-great-resignation

Aristotle Project
The Great Reshuffle LinkedIn CEO Ryan Roslansky
Atlantic Magazine The Great Resignation is Accelerating
Was The Great Resignation Inevitable
Zippia Collector Demographics
The impact of collective trust on company performance study - Sandra Robinson
Edelman Trust Research
How to Mitigate Employee Burnout
McKinsey Report Women in the Workplace

Transcript

Lex Patterson: 0:11

kindred force media employees are rethinking what they want from their job. And the number of people willing to make a change has been on the increase for months. Why is this happening? How will this impact the debt collection space? Who is at risk? What can be done about it? And what opportunities for growth does this create? In this episode, we'll explore these questions and the data behind the phenomenon with Ian Cook, a recognized and capable people leader with broad experience in driving organizational growth, using employee metrics and machine learning to provide insight and understanding and lead transformational organizational change. settle in for some timely and impactful information. Here we go. Welcome, Ian. How you doing? My friend?

Ian Cook: 1:14

I am doing well. Lex has yourself. I'm doing great.

Lex Patterson: 1:19

And where does this podcast find you?

Unknown: 1:21

Today it finds me in sunny Vancouver after about a week of rain and record breaking volumes of water. So everybody is smiling today.

Lex Patterson: 1:32

Yeah. And you had a great weekend. Watching some racing. It sounds like

Unknown: 1:37

I'm a Formula One fan. And it's been a pretty good season in 2021. Lots of lots of back and forth. It's good stuff.

Lex Patterson: 1:43

Yeah. A lot of drama going on. Pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. Do you watch that Netflix special at all on?

Unknown: 1:49

I haven't yet. I put it on my list. Actually, a few people have recommended it.

Lex Patterson: 1:54

It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Yeah, I've been following it myself on there. So yeah, well, I appreciate you joining. And you're the VP of people analytics at Visier. And I love that title. That's a great title. Tell us a little bit about the idea of using people analytics to help companies improve insight and better decision making in regards to their workforce.

Unknown: 2:17

Now, sure, and then that's vizier, a specialty that the company was set up around that whole notion that we've got a lot of data about people sitting in, you know, the, the HRIS system that keeps records or the Talent Acquisition System, or the payroll system, basically know a lot about people, very few HR organizations had thought about, how do we access it? How do we use it? Increasingly, and especially as we've seen through the pandemic, you know, businesses are reliant on people, you know, at the base level, just having enough but more crucially, having the right people doing the right things. And we've known for some time, and I've kind of invested the last almost 20 years of my career in, in understanding what data can we use? How do we use it doesn't help us informed decisions. We don't think the main data makes the decision, but how do we use the data to inform decisions about people, so the business functions better? Again, we got a whole host of prefer and how that understanding the data leads to better HR programs leads to better business outcomes. We're going to join that link up in our work and and so the practice of people on like, is that like, how do you use what we knew about people, and about how the influence and affect the business to try and help the business do better to better people strategy type piece. It often lives in the HR domain, but it's not HR, as people would classically understand it in terms of, you know, contracting or some of the more administrative tasks. It is actually really about how do we enliven the people we have, and how do we optimize the way things work? It's a fun space emerging. It's going through a massive growth mode right now. Lots and lots of people are tapping into the capability that's been established here.

Lex Patterson: 4:01

Yeah. And and I'm so excited to talk with you about this phenomenon that's going on in our world today, known as the Great resignation. But let's bust right into it. I mean, what's happening from your perspective?

Unknown: 4:15

Yeah, lots of things are happening. So the great resignation, it's the it's the employer perspective. No, every night let's just say 95% of the organization's I'm talking to other leaders, I'm talking to have seen rates of people leaving their business, unprecedented. 2019 was already a hot job market. Clearly 2020 shrunk but 2021 As it's even more so there's a whole host of change. And there's a bunch of different dynamics in there that there's no sort of one thing but the pandemic the experience of living from living and working from home all of those different forces and stress CES have led to lots more people choosing to change jobs than ever in the past. And so employers are seeing lots of resignations, employees are choosing to do different things. There's this massive reset in the labor market, which is, which is causing everybody to scratch their heads, nobody necessarily expected this to happen. Typically, after a session, labor markets rebuild slowly, people are desperate to get back to work. So I think a lot of people were hoping things would just settled back down again. And actually what we're experiencing is even further disruption in the way that work is happening.

Lex Patterson: 5:39

Yeah, yes, we're seeing this shift happening, where people are changing their jobs at this elevated rate. And I read recently in a Time magazine article, where chief, LinkedIn chief executive Ryan or Lansky, whose teams have been tracking this phenomenon among their professional network of nearly 800 million global members. And he indicated in the article that it's more like a grand re shuffle. He said, they started noticing an interesting trend probably six months ago, where they track the percentage of all members on LinkedIn that changed their jobs in their LinkedIn profile. And looking at that data at the end of September, that number was up, according to him 54 54% year over year, what are you seeing at the data you're looking at?

Unknown: 6:27

So what we have is slightly different data, probably showing similar trends, we have data that's sourced directly from our clients. So they they have a, what's called an HR is HR information system. That's where the employee records are kept. So if you are an active employee, and you need to be paid, you'll have a record in that system. When you join the business, there's a record when you leave the business as a record. So we gather that from close to 11,000 organizations represents about 10 million employees, a large proportion of those across North America. And so we are counting the actual proportion of people who are leaving. So it's not just job change. It's actually somebody's saying, I'm resigning and resigning as meaning I'm choosing to go work somewhere else. So we've got categorization that says, choose to go work somewhere else. So we've had that data, we got it over seven or eight years. Back in sort of February of this year, we were looking at the rates, just just to see, I knew that was from the 2001 time window and a little around 2007, there was a lot of internal market mobility. So based on that hunch, I went to look at our data to say, what are we seeing? And so what we, what we forecast back then was that the summer of 2021 would be an elevated Ray, we, we did some forecasting, and it was like it's looking like it's going to be bigger than we expect. What we know now is we were correct. And we it's actually unprecedented. So we we measure resignation as a rate. So what percent of the total population has actually left their employer. As of the end of August this year, we were looking at that as a 25% rate for the whole year to benchmark that 2019 was around 22%, using the same time window for calculation, and then, you know, a traditional year would be more like 18 to 20%. But so baseline 2020 was less lots of reasons why a lot of you know, the the labor market kind of slows down when there's uncertainty and that shock phase for COVID. But we've seen 2019 was already one of the higher years in our in the last 520 21 has been substantially above that. In terms of tau Alexis. So we're we're actually seeing similar to LinkedIn again, you know, there's always there's always this, where are you getting your data from? And what does it mean, somebody's changing jobs. Another thing we detect in our data is job titles, changing people not leaving the business, but the business, giving people different jobs internally. So job title change can be just my job title, it changed. I stayed with vizier, but my title changed. So you know, I changed it in LinkedIn is that that's not me leaving an employer that's me staying just doing something different, that has an effect. That's a big reshuffles. Or it's certainly seeing that what we focus specifically on is people, you know, choosing to leave their employer to go do something else. And that's at that 25% rate. So you always have to be careful in making assumptions around these things. Like, where's the data source from? What's it actually detecting? Because the other piece on that Lexa is relevant to listeners to understand is, people like Gallup and other survey groups have been putting out you know, 50% of people are changing jobs, and they're detecting it from surveys. And a survey is an intent to leave like, you asked me a question like, are you going to stay with your employer like, no, depending how I feel on that day, I'll be more or less committed to that answer. So we know that surveys will overstate the volume of change. So you know, Gallup was looking at 50%, we are actually counting 25% of people who follow through on that intent. So there's always a difference in terms of what the data source is what that means. We like ours, because we're coming from actual behavior. It's just historically what has happened. Not some sense of what might happen. We think that's more instructive, because we know, you know, you said 50%, and 25%, left, and half of the people you thought might leave heaven. And then how do you know which half mistaken which you're gonna leave? Like, you end up with a better guessing or it's a we know that 25% that have left? We can use that information to guide and understand where businesses need to go?

Lex Patterson: 10:43

Yeah, that's really cool. And, you know, maybe an interesting note to interject here. I learned on another podcast recently that Peter Drucker, the influential management thinker, once said, that every major trend in society can be reverse engineered with demographics. And so it's interesting that you're using, and you're actually using eon machine learning, right? So your algorithms are constantly learning and refining on the data that you're looking at, too. And so you mentioned in your comment there that you actually forecast the event, which is so intriguing that you've got that data at your fingertips, you're forecasting it, you're able to predict in a way, tell us a little bit more about you know, so employee behavior, like tell us a little bit what you can tell us anyway about how you guys do that, and what's going on there.

Unknown: 11:35

So on the predictive side, we we use a thing called machine learning and machine learning is it's it's supervised learning, and again, it, it comes down to the fact that we've got true event you we have a real thing that happened. And that means we can look at train our algorithm and say, look at what's happening, build a statistical model, then test that model on future events? How well did it work? Did it work well enough that it worked badly. And let me do that 1000s of times, because the computer can do that really fast, you know, you and I with a calculator could do it. But it would just take us a day or two days to do all these iterations. And me personally, I have trouble doing the same thing twice. So I would kind of tend to get lost really great. Doesn't care, it will just show in the math. So what our machine learning does is it looks at the historical patterns and applies them to the future and decides how likely is this so that that was that allowed us to do some interpolation, like out into the future, like what's this going to look like. And that said, you know, given, given the trends, given where we are, the the trajectory is upward, it's not going to give us this pure number, say, oh, you know, August will be 25%, it's going to give us a band. So there's a probability that in this amount of time, it's going to be at a higher rate. And that's what we used to do the forecasting. What we're reporting now is what we've actually measured as of August. And then what we also saw in terms of that notion of demographics is some really interesting trends, like lots of people rightly assume that a bunch of the movement is the younger, early stage professionals trying to accelerate their career. You know, every year, there's a certain population of people who move on because they're looking for more pay more responsibility, more challenge, that they're often in that sub 30 age group, often have zero to three years of tenure, like being in the business, but short timeframe. What surprised us when we looked at our data is it was you know, it was a 35, plus age buckets that were actually had the highest rate of change, not the overall highest rate of movement, but much, much accelerated rate of change. And it was also people with longer tenure. And this is where that notion of reshuffle reset, like why is this different, really started to hit home for us because it's not just catch up. It's a large number of people choosing to do something different, when they may have been stable for quite some time. And if I think about the people in my business who've been with us for five years, you know, they are incredibly valuable. They know their relationships, they know their customers, they know the history of how we got to where we got to, like their knowledge base takes a long time to build and is rich and deep. So losing that population can be very hard to replace, you know, you get in some instances 18 to 24 months just to rebuild the knowledge base. So, you know, what we saw was the people who are further on in their career, established professionals taking the choice to move at much, much higher rates and a couple of different things going on in that some is the remote, not remote option. Now some of those professionals would have been based where there was one or two employers locally, they could only work locally. That was the choice. They can now work remote, so their opportunities have opened up. Other people are adjusting their their work life balance, making different choices as a family or whatever. So looking to access gig work or different things, women's resignation rates are elevated a whole host of reasons why that is. Some of them, I've already covered in some of them, just the the pressure and stresses that have been women have born through this phase are well documented that they're kind of extreme. So, you know, there's there's an element of that showing up in the data as well. So there's a bunch of different segments within the population that are actually leading this to be a mass event. It's not like there's one thing that's happening and everybody's reacting to it. different populations have different reasons, but they're all elevated. And that's really quite some substantive and disruptive change. That's going Yeah, yeah. So

Lex Patterson: 15:47

there was an article in The Atlantic about the accelerating great resignation, and it said, you may have heard the story of golden age of American labor, 20th century workers stayed in one job for 40 years and retired with a gold watch. But according to this article, that's a total myth. And they say the truth is, people in the 60s and 70s quit their jobs more often than they have in the past 20 years, and the economy was better off for it. Since the 80s, Americans have quit less many have clung on to jobs, for fear that the safety net wouldn't support them while they look for a new one. But Americans seem to be done with sticking it out. And they're being rewarded for their lack of patience. According to this article, wages for the low income workers in particular are rising their fastest rate since the great recession. So let's talk about like the data in terms of like, trends through the decades and stuff because I think you've you've got some data going back. Right. Tell. Tell us maybe a little bit about that. And what employers should be paying attention to like right now. Yeah. So.

Unknown: 16:53

So one of the can, goes back as well to what you're highlighting around demographics, Lex, when there was a couple of core trends that were underway before the pandemic. And many people have pointed out that the pandemic just accelerated these trends and potentially caused a tipping point. So one of the key trends was the intergenerational mix. There's a population described as the boomers, they are postwar babies, there was a lot of them. And it created a created this habit of sticking with your employer, because there was more people than jobs. And so if you had an employer wouldn't necessarily be easy to find another job. And so there's the habit of forming communities stabilizing. Sticking with employers, that population had been staying in employment for quite a long time, again, the Conference Board have that attract participation by different age groups. And we'd seen a radical increase in the 65 to 7070 to 74 year olds staying that's reversed that there's, again, a market number of people have who are delaying retirement have now retired, I think it was, No, it was sort of forecast like a million and a half to 2 million retirements. It's three, three plus. So you know, 50 60% of more people retiring. So that takes people out of the labor market, like people that you thought were going to show up for work, or actually, you know, what I am finally going to take myself to the golf course to the, you know, book club to the music, event, whatever that might be that they want to do. So that's one piece. That then means that the predominant working generation is, it's not Gen Xers like me, it's the Zeds and millennials, and they've grown up with a computer in their bedroom, they've grown up, mediating, getting work done with tools with technology, instant access, instant process. And so many of them are then bumping into these very habituated work environments that don't really look like the modern world to them. And so that's one of the things that employers need to pay attention to be very vocal on this. If you think you're going back to that habitual way of work that you had, you're mistaken, because the people who were comfortable with it probably aren't there to work anymore. The people that you need to work to replace them don't want to work in that kind of environment. And so, you know, this, this process of demographics, the long term trend of who's in the labor market who's working, what are the expectations and interests of those people have really shifted. And then the third piece which goes to that, your hourly paid population, a lot of those individuals have taken advantage of the time during the pandemic, to educate and grow and learn that that notion of a threat to security is amazing him physically motivating in terms of people taking ownership for how do I keep myself employable? How do I get into a career that isn't as fragile as what I'm in? and the sort of re orientation of art swathes of the population had are there. And that's led to scarcity, which then leads to, you know, the only way to the main way to draw people back to hourly workers to then that increase hourly pay. And you've seen all the stats there that that, yeah, baseline of hourly, hourly rates is accelerating the fastest and a long time. You know, all kinds of reasons for that. But it's also a very difficult, it's very difficult to compete just on money, which, again, where we think employers need to take a more balanced views like money is Nessus. necessary, absolutely necessary at that level in the labor market? But how do you distinguish your offering? And how do you actually rethink what your business is trying to do? How do you offer flexibility alongside the money that then aligns to different interests? How do you provide opportunities for learning? Again, we're seeing a lot more conversation around keeping employees employable, as opposed to keeping them in a job and keeping them safe. People understand that's a false promise. Now, there's nothing that a business can do to make sure it keeps going like the pandemic prove that external events can radically change things. So people are like, you know, what, I need to stay employable. Any my skills relevant, I need to be in a sector of the economy that is is the future, not the past? And so all of those things? Yeah. Big Questions for employers. Yeah. So.

Lex Patterson: 21:43

So I guess what I'm thinking about is, you know, you mentioned and I think you've seen trends like this before, right? Where the rates went up a little bit. But in this case, it seems like it's different this time. And you mentioned a lot of reasons why that is, I also heard the idea that there was a great awakening, they called the Great Awakening preceding the great resignation, where during the months of the pandemic, the things you know, there was a lot slowed down. People who had been soldiering in their jobs had time to think, is this really what I want? And I think you mentioned that, especially with some of the boomers, the the older generation, maybe took that time to say, you know, what I'm done. And then a lot of a lot of it, too, is, you know, for 18 months now, employees have been, who were on the treadmill of work. They were in the routine, they've experienced this unprecedented agency control, flexibility, trust, and accountability. And people don't want to go back to the way it was. I mean, I've talked to quite a few people that have mentioned in particular, the commute, you know, with that, so tell me, I'm sure this resonates with what you're seeing? And do you believe there's something else at play or two, or is that pretty much kind of encapsulate what's going on?

Unknown: 23:05

I think it encapsulates it, like how it shows up and how it plays out for different people is sort of different in different ways. But there is a some pretty good stats on the number of individuals who have incorporated as a business. And that's one of the precursors to then accessing gig work. So that there's, you know, two or three platforms now. And there used to be the, just the preserve of the technology space where, you know, you'd put out a project, somebody would bid on it, they would deliver the project and give it back to you. But now more and more organizations are understanding how to put out work packets, and more and more people are going to go like, you know, I can make as much money in a way where I fit work around the other things I want to do. Through these technologies. In the past, there were massive transactional costs to being an independent worker, that you had to find the work I've been in that world like, No, everything's being as an independent consultants, amazing, because you just work when you want, it's like no, no, you work all the time, because you either delivering work to the customer, or you're finding your next piece of work in, in, in the sort of pre gig world, in the gig world, that stuff is coming into your inbox daily. And if you can build a portfolio and you can, you know, have skills, then that's a whole different way to access work. And that's, I think that's really come of age. And so that's a whole set of different choices. And again, driven by this, you know, I can work and I can make a decent living, and I can do it in ways that the pandemic gave me the window and the motivation to get good at I probably wouldn't stop and then try and build that myself over six months, but you know what? I was forced to stop so I had nothing else to do but build it up. Yeah. So you know, and that's, that's a, that's one of the pieces. The other piece is some of the, the, the overall dynamics in the labor market have shifted whereby employees now understand they have they hold more of the balance of the power than they did. And, again, numerous instances in the press of leaders wanting to go back to the office, and employees kind of going like, why would I? Why would I do that? Why would I do that without you engaging and asking and kind of working this through with me, as opposed to just forcing me back into the grind of the commute and forcing me back into my gray Cubby, I saw a meme on LinkedIn, which was that it just described the soulless nature of the Office experience where it's, it's those gray cloth walls with a little entry slot, and there's nothing on your walls and you have your desk. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, for 1000s of people that epitomized work, not for the executive sitting in the corner office, but for the majority of people and like, we've kept the business going. Business has been profitable, everything's worked. Why are you taking me back to my cubby, other than you can stand there and look at me, like, why would I? What's in that for me? So, you know, that's, that's a big part of what's was changed. And again, that that awakening to the opportunities that awakening to the the differences, not available to everybody, but lots of people have reflected on what's the what's the work I really want to do? Yeah, no, code was a very, very material threat. That it it's not, it's not like a recession, where there's a financial threat, it was a health threat. So it has a for me, more emotional, more deep, like, wow, this this, the world can really end kind of experience. Yeah, yeah. First time for many of us.

Lex Patterson: 26:53

Yeah, for sure. Let's talk about possible root causes and who's at risk? And you mentioned, the last time we talked that one of the first questions you always get asked is what's the one thing employers should do to deal with a great resignation? Yeah. What's your answer to that? Yeah.

Unknown: 27:11

But my answer is, don't assume there's one thing. I mean, it's the it's the it's the tricky piece about people is they rarely does everybody respond the same way to the same input? No, that's actually one of the fun parts of my world is often frustrating for people with an operations background is like, so what do we do? It's like, Well, depends who and depends where and depends, sort of what outcome you want. And it's all probabilistic? Because not everybody reacts the same way. So, you know, the first thing is to actually break down into segments, who are your, you know, young, upwardly mobile population? Who are your core, in that mid midlife, mid phase, mid career population? Who are your sort of legacy, you know, thought leader brain trust, building the future type population? You know, those are three basic segments, you're likely to have more. And so the first is to understand which one of those segments is most critical to our business, you know, maybe needs a flow through have young energetic talent. But is that the most critical? Is it the core group that is actually keeping your existing business going and knowing how to change your existing business? Or is it again, that that legacy population that if you lose them, nobody will know what's going on and your business will not be able to adapt to the changing world? So, you know, the first thing is, don't assume there's one thing, understand that you have different populations, each of those has a different effect on your business, each of those needs to be addressed. And you may, again, I'm giving very, very high level segmentation. So, again, one of the first jobs may even to be to understand what, what what segments are meaningful inside our business, because whilst they fall into broad categories, you you may have further segments within their women versus men, you know, in office versus out of office, customer facing versus back in a whole host of other breakpoints. So there is no one one thing and that's where we advocate for the use of data. That's where what our clients are doing. It's what we advocate is, that's where understanding the specific patterns for your business is absolutely critical. And tying that back to what's your business trying to do. Are you trying to preserve business operations? Are you trying to change and do something different? What of our financial services clients are are responding to the digitization of banking? No, they went from like 45% of transactions happening online to 85% of transactions happening online. They have digital upstarts or digital stuff Startups know, nipping around their traditional business all over the place. So there they've been see a bit in our data that they're doing a really, really material pivot. And so what do you need, you need the people who know, compliance and process and all of that banking, Legal Foundation, as well as some talented individuals who understand how to make the world digital, and what good feels like and how to put the UX behind that. And so you have to start to put those two pieces together, which is a different population from what your traditional bank had been. And so that, you know, it's an example of having to reshape, understand to what do we need to do we need to hold on to B, do we need to add? Or who do we build around that so that our business stays secure successful in the future. And these things are often not, you know, they don't happen in a month or two months, they are right, quarter by quarter, you know, Mac macro level shifts. So, you know, those kinds of responses are important.

Lex Patterson: 31:09

It's really fascinating when you talk about the different segments, you know, and you mentioned three in particular there. So you've got these categories, and then overlaying on top of that your business type your strategy, how that can Interplay into the whole thing. And so are there other than those segments, and you in particular mentioned women, I'll get into that in a minute, which I think is real fascinating, in particular, for the collection industry. But are there other segments of data that we should be paying attention to that have spiked,

Unknown: 31:43

that the piece is paying attention to that I would also say is it's it's general labor market availability. One of the one of the things that we've seen through it, a partner of ours, we work with called MZ Burning Glass. They look at labor market data. And they were tracking the number of jobs, remote jobs that were available. And they've seen a very, again, a very big shift in terms of remote availability. So if I was looking at these segments within my population, I would also be looking to understand the labor market around me and how many of those jobs that weren't remote are now remote and how that might actually impact my work, and how that might impact my ability to build the population I need maintain the population and because you depending if where you are, you may know be competing with Amazon for talent, you may now be competing with some of the California based organizations that weren't on your doorstep, and whenever they are, so there's a there's a key piece to it sort of looking around you at your labor market. And in depending on the business, you're looking at some of the demographics where the working population you were tapping into has gone away. Britten's Britain's a kind of key example of that night now where we're all aware of the chaos that happened because they ran out a lorry drivers. It sounds really simple. Like surely there's enough people to drive the lorries but there wasn't. Yeah. So you know, what is it about your business where you might need a lot of people, but they may not be there anymore, just just assuming that they're going to be there because they were there is not not a safe approach anymore.

Lex Patterson: 33:23

Okay. Well, let's circle back on the segment. You mentioned a minute ago of women seeking change being higher than that of men. And this really perked my attention for our audience. Because in the research I've done based upon demographic statistics from zippia.com, specifically around the debt collector in the US their data indicates that 66% of debt collectors are women over 40, which lands on to at least two, I think of the who could be at higher risk categories you mentioned. So do you see this as a risk, therefore, or maybe a potential opportunity for the debt collection? People?

Unknown: 34:02

Totally, it's, it's a bit of both legs, I think you put it well, if you're going to continue business as usual, and just sort of running your business, the way you've run your business. And there's there's every likelihood that those women may choose to exit, whatever is going on for that population that mean, work. Isn't Nestle fitting in with a life site style, then that may impact them. But the flipside is also true. If you can really dig in and listen to like, what is it that makes work accessible? What is it that makes work meaningful? What are the adjustments that we could make, that would help bring them into work? Then there's an opportunity there's a there's a workforce and a great bunch of people to tap into. I mean, we've had some of our customers doing that not necessarily a debt collection space, but in other spaces, understanding how to reshape shift work, so that it's not the classic nine to five If there I mean, there is, there is nothing that sort of published in the world that says work has to happen between nine to five, we've all fallen into the habit. And you know, that habit fell out of the industrial era. Now the pandemic has broken that habit, and people have had experience of not having to work that way. So, you know, those, that's one of the many other things but those are some of the simple things to say, we can turn this into an opportunity for our business to engage more women in engagement in ways that work. And that I think that's a great way to look at it a risk, but there's an opportunity in every risk.

Lex Patterson: 35:34

Yes, yes, for sure. So another excerpt from an article in The Atlantic said quits, as the Bureau of Labor Statistics call them a rising in almost every industry. So first of all, would you agree? And then I'm wondering if there are some industries that are more impacted? For instance, do you have any data on the financial or specifically the accounts receivable management or debt collection industries that you could share with us?

Unknown: 36:03

Yeah, I don't have anything right then at that debt collection level, that's a pretty specific slice. And

Lex Patterson: 36:09

that's very niche market.

Unknown: 36:12

Yeah, we definitely have data on the sort of the general hourly population, and we're seeing a lot of mobility, and that's retail warehousing hospitality, that sector, they're seeing it, that's one of the highest volume areas, you'll see it in the BLS data, we see it in our own data. You know, a lot of what's happening, there is some level of scarcity escalation in prices, there's definitely high high high rates there. And then we also track the finance sector, predominantly, banks, insurance, some fintech. They're also seeing rates rising like it's it. If anybody kind of thinks, Oh, we're immune, then I urge them to look at their data and question their assumptions. You know, right. There's different reasons in different places. And I think that's sometimes what puts people off is like, Oh, well, I read this because of such and such. Now, that's not about my business. And it's like, well, that might be for this population. But you should check into the data, make sure you understand it for your own organization. Definitely seeing increases in those hourly rates hourly Orient, sort of hourly paid jobs, for sure. And finance sector for

Lex Patterson: 37:25

sure. Okay, yeah. So if I understand at one very large differentiator in terms of the difference in this shift or trend from those previously, back in time, it's that we were thrown into the shakeup right on brought on by COVID, which may have led to higher productivity expectations on the worker, and also the need for balance, and then maybe some worker burnout. Yeah. Okay, so, and I read, I recently read, there are many factors of employee burnout. But a leading researcher, Christina Maslach, is identified three major factors. And she coined the triple C's, which were the lack of control, compensation, and connection. Yeah, so I'd like to dive in here a bit. Because I've read that you, we could sum this whole phenomenon up into four words, feedback, that goes unheard. And we've all heard that people don't quit companies, they quit managers. So what are your thoughts here? Let's dive into this for a minute. Yeah,

Unknown: 38:30

no, that is a great, great comment. Lexan. Early, nice summary. So if we start with the feedback that goes on heard, because I think that is, it's one of the one of the answers. And it's something that I, myself and a couple of other colleagues have spent some time talking about. Or what's different about this pandemic is the is the change in the labor market, and people's experiences of being isolated, being, you know, challenged by work, and then realizing that they have some really important choices to make. And so coming out of the pandemic, that they are being activated as different choices. And that's where employers have been listening for a long time, like, you know, engagement surveys have been around forever. But probably the single biggest complaint about engagement surveys from the employees perspective is like, you asked me all these questions, and you do nothing like why are you asking me if you don't care. And so, you know, lots of employers focus on that survey, let survey, what they focus less on is, but let's change let's act, let's tell people what we heard, and how we're acting differently from it. And that is where that connection gets broken. That is where employees choose to as I'm fed up to tell this business, how to be successful. I'm going to go and do that somewhere else are going to find somebody who listens to me, we all like to be listened to. So it's not just the listening. It's the the processing and action of the feedback. It's actually one of it's actually part of how we recommend people handle the retention piece, identify which segments of your population are leaving, listen to them, and then act on what you hear. And probably more importantly, let them know that's what's going on. And then the other piece around burnout is definitely key. Because what we are seeing, don't have exact stats, but there is a, there's a definite shift from people looking to work for employee ers that will give them control. So, you know, a number of clients I've talked to there, they've already switched it to. That's quite managed flexibility. We're not advocating for just let people choose when they want to work, that that doesn't work. Like that's chaos. But manage flexibility means here's the work, here's what it takes to get it done. Here's the flexibility you have within those confines, to manage how you work, so you're giving control to the employee, within limits to the ways they get work done. Those limits can mean we need to come together to talk together, they can mean you know, so many hours within a window, it doesn't have to be absolute flexibility. We've seen employers putting those in place. And that starts to help in terms of retention and help in terms of attraction. And we, again, anecdotally hear the stories of people, leaving employers who like quick, everybody back to the office, let's just do it, how we were doing it, to moving to employers like Well, I'm just looking for a little bit more control over my own destiny, in terms of learning, or time, in terms of the other things I want to do with my life. I think that control and who has control as is a real key insight. And you know, a lot of terms around that.

Lex Patterson: 41:47

So So do you think then, you know, and I'd made the statement there, you know that people don't quit company companies, they quit managers. But do you think if I'm hearing, if I'm kind of hearing, what I think I'm hearing from you is that it might be deeper than that the disconnect surrounding a sense of belonging, trust, feeling valued. And those can all be a manager, right? But but it might be deeper cultural concerns, the sense of mission, I think comes into here, which is maybe perhaps deeper than just a management problem. Yes. So maybe talk to us a little more about proper listening and maybe some tips on you know, how can how can we send, especially responding

Unknown: 42:30

is, I think that the key with listening is to ask less and answer more. Okay, one of the good one of the one of the habits, we've seen changes, like we we asked you once a year, and we asked you, you know, 40 questions. And then we spent three months trying to work out what North was told, because we just we gather all at once it was kind of the classic way that engagement was done. Yeah. What we're seeing coming through from mine, our clients is like, Okay, we changed this policy, what do you think we've changed this approach? What do you think we want to ask you about a XYZ practice? What do you think? And so it's bite sized chunks. And then you quickly process that information, say, we asked, here's what you told us back. Here's what we're gonna do about it. fortunate to work in a business with a really amazing HR team, and I'd say an enlightened Chief People Officer. They've been fantastic around. No, we asked you what you would like in terms of office support, you told us that you're not really ready to come back full time. But some of you would like to come back full time, you're happy to mask up and you're happy to, you know, manage inside a safety protocol. So that's what we've put in place. We know it's not for everybody. We're not setting expectation you come back. But from the survey, this was the spread of insight we got this is the action we've taken. You know, please continue to give us feedback. So that's a really, you know, back and forth listening approach where gather a bunch of data show that different opinions that are being expressed action, the ones that you can acknowledge the ones you can't, yeah, because again, I think that's where people get trapped in this listing things like, oh, that means I got to do that. Everybody asked for a sec. No, you don't. You actually just have to acknowledge that you heard the request and can't handle it. Yeah. Reasonable people are okay with that. Yeah. What they hate is just not acknowledgement that they were hurt.

Lex Patterson: 44:25

Yeah. So well, and you know, it reminds me too, of that. I think we talked about this before, in, you know, the Google Aristotle project. And, you know, that the really the crux of that study came down to trust, trusting the employee. Right. And I think you met some some other research too.

Unknown: 44:47

Yeah. As a researcher at a University of British Columbia called Sandra Robinson. Okay. She published a paper very similar she studied the performance in a retail sector. business based on the ploy ease perception of being trusted. So were employees believed that their management trusted them, performance was high. And so it's it's it's not do I trust the management but do I think management trusts me is that that whole notion of management giving control to others, it's uncomfortable for a lot of managers because they feel like they need to control. It's a little, you know, it's really hard to control other people, we always feel like we can, but it's not that too easy. So this was a similar kind of study that looked at the effect of trust on performance. And similar to Google, it found very strongly that that, that notion that I'm, I'm trusted to get done, what I need to get done doesn't lead to people slacking off, it actually leads to people doing more, because they believe they're being supported. And often we vote we build systems to protect the 5%, who are a bad actor, and we ignore all the capacity of the 95%, who really wanted to do a good job. Yeah, I'm kind of more than that, let's support the 95% and try and reduce or mitigate the 5%, as opposed to vice versa. So. And I think something you mentioned earlier, I think is really at the heart of this, like, we wanted work, where we find purpose. We want to work where we find connection, you know, being able to do that, in a genuine way requires trust. And I think, again, organizations are kind of going back into that, how do we rebuild trust? How do we establish a different relationship with trust? As we build our working practices going forward?

Lex Patterson: 46:37

Yeah. Because it's really a challenge, you know, in terms of we're remote, right? So we've got this autonomy, we've got this freedom in a way. But, and I think you and I talked about this too, before, like productivity, in some ways may have gone up during this pandemic, right. But but then you've got this situation where people are working longer maybe to make that happen. And so the check ins with managers, how do they, you know, the struggle would be how do you check in without checking up? But you know, you got to feel the support, right? So, yeah, there's a challenge there. And maybe we could talk about some cultural checkpoints and tips to help companies deal with the shift, which comes out of your Harvard Business Review article, which is called who is driving the great resignation, which will include in the show notes for this episode on kindred force calm. But in in that article, you mentioned keeping retention Top of Mind monthly. So tell us more. Tell it, let's, let's talk about that. And some cultural tips here.

Unknown: 47:43

It's so cool. Cultural tips are to try not to gauge productivity on hours worked. Some some jobs, you know, the number of hours put in are is important. But I work with software developers, we have developers who can get something done in two hours that other people will take four hours. So it's not really about the hours. So I think a lot of it is very much being very, very clear on what performance expectations are. Making sure that that's negotiated and fair and clear up front. I've seen a lot of the burnout surveys that are being done is like I have an increased workload, I have an expectation to do things faster. For a lot of people that have never worked from home before there is a personal discipline required to actually switch off from work. Like I suspect all of us have found ourselves wandering back to our computer, because we kind of had nothing to do we were kind of trapped in the house. Right? So we might as well work, right? Yeah. And, you know, some of that's personal, but also having the you know, there's where the management conversations come in to kind of go like, are you taking your wrist? Are you are you not always clear on mandating time off but but just really making sure that people are resting. Any athlete that constantly trains always ends up, falling off in terms of performance, because the overtrain work is the same thing. So, you know, a lot of that is, is understanding that this is an ongoing situation. It's not like you fix trust once and you're done. Or you fix productivity once and you're done. Like this is this whole practice of leading, managing, engaging people in work, and it has to be a constant back and forth conversation with the right tools. And try again, finding the balance point. Finding Win Win does work best for certain people. certain jobs are going to require you to be customer facing and therefore you're in a environment for a certain time, but increasingly more jobs have the chances to work when it suits you. as opposed to having have been done, but I think it's quite an important piece. And I think it's also another part of the kind of, potentially the employee backlash is like, I've been working my tail off for the last 18 months to keep this business safe. I kind of had some thanks. But now you're just trying to make everything go back to how it was without engaging me in the process and whether that's good. If I have an alternative? Option, I'll take it. I certainly heard a bunch of anecdotal stories of people just being, like, blown away by the lack of respect, shown by their employer.

Lex Patterson: 50:34

Yeah, yeah. So trust is a big piece in that. So tell us about. So on the retention part of it, though, you know, and I think what's shifted there is we used to do maybe surveys, or even even reviews and stuff, maybe once a quarter, or once a year or something like that. And, and there's, there's this shift now. So talk a little bit about that. What are your thoughts on that.

Unknown: 50:58

But there's a there's a very different shift. HR practices used to be very much about volume of work done and that kind of slow reporting cadence. So people would look at turnover once a year and go, is our turnover better or worse than it was last year? Doesn't mean it's a problem, does it not? Businesses moving too fast for that now? I can't really imagine a CFO doing the same thing. So oh, you know, we're gonna look at where we are against budget, or the end of the end of the year. Yeah, it's like, did we do better than we did last year? Did we do worse? As we think about people, there's two inputs, primary inputs into business, there is money. And there is people, we spent a lot of time studying, understanding using that information about money. We're, we're seeing the same trend, the same pickup in terms of using that information about people. So we don't think turnover is a score at the end of the year. It's it's something you monitor month by month, that the technologies are available, that it's way easier to do than it used to be you don't need specialist people. You can track that. And it's also about having the conversation regularly saying, Where are we at relative to where we were, you know, same time last year. So, you know, March to March, April to April? What does that mean? Is that a problem? Because half of the reason to look at that retention isn't isn't just to score, keep, it's actually to make sure you're understanding what your go forward position is, like, a lot of the challenges that the Operations Group see in terms of retention, like, well, if we keep losing people this fast, and we can't replace them fast enough, we're not going to make revenue, we're not going to keep up with production targets. And so we we see from the clients that we work with this, this constant ability to understand and monitor key measures, like changes in headcount diversity across the organization retention, and building a cadence around that. So it's monthly, there is the what are the numbers and a conversation about what do these numbers mean? becomes as important as the whole review of the budget. For us, those two things go together. Because those people dynamics often actually shape what comes out in the budget. And if you just look at the budget, you're kind of missing half of the picture. So yeah, we see that as a, as a best as an emerging best practice and one that has played our customers to navigate the pandemic, well be more successful coming out of

Lex Patterson: 53:25

it. Yeah. And for sure, I think COVID has brought to the forefront the need to be data driven. And you've got that kind of data that you can like you say, overlay on maybe historical HR data, which really helps make decision but let's talk about the the people that maybe are smaller waist smaller and and maybe are to that level yet where they can pull that data and what would you say to them?

Unknown: 53:49

To them, I think if you're not large enough to look at the statistics, just have the conversation. You know, I think in those smaller organizations like, Okay, did we have any significant leaves in the last month? Like, who were they? What do we learn from them? Did we talk to them to understand why is that is that going to be a problem for us. And even if it's just a list or a count of the two or three people that may be left, then that just starts to raise it, you're not looking at a rate because the rate can, you know, be 50 people. It can be very noisy in terms of how it jumps around. And so that starts to detract from the conversation. The key piece for us is like, you know, here's the two or three names of the people that we wish we kept. We talked to them. These are things they told us. These are the things that we think are important to the business to understand. Maybe we can change it, maybe we can so if we can change it that'll help us keep people. If we can't change it, then as we hire, we need to bear this in mind. So we don't hire people for whom lack of flexibility or, you know, certain aspects of our job are going to be a problem. Do you just starting to process and continue to use the information, bringing it into the conversation about how are we running the business? Yeah. And just making that a habit so that people are always on the radar. And what you find is people get better, you'd get a common perspective. One of the things that's going on right now is bunch of leaders are reading the press. And the press is saying, everybody wants flexible work. And so there's the conversation in the business, like, do we do flexible work? Do we know? Should we shouldn't we, everybody says they want it? Nobody says they want it. And it's all based on anecdote and estimation, from whoever you talk to whatever. I'm building a shared picture, like, but what does that mean for us? How many employees are saying this? How, which employees are saying this? So what should we do to start to actually really work on that people part or the business from a strategic approach, as opposed to this other anecdotal watercooler last person talk to which is kind of gonna be in the traditional for the classic way that it's happened? Yeah, it's not the watercooler site is not. It's not that effective. Yeah, often leads to the last voice or louder voice. And that's not always the true picture.

Lex Patterson: 56:09

Yeah. So if I'm hearing what you're saying, you know, maybe breaking that down. Smaller companies have the ability to be more agile, and, for instance, so they could ask maybe one important question. And then the main thing, I guess, would be to respond to that in some way, right. So you can break away from the, the 10, the 10 point scale and ask him 20 questions on a 10 point scale, he loved this, you hate it? Where do you see it? Too? Breaking that down? Right? Am I Am I getting that? Right?

Unknown: 56:42

It totally. Yeah. And also, yeah, doing that in such a way that you you share the information back? Again, I have a colleague that I work with the client, but work closely together. And, you know, his moment of pride was when his CEO is talking to the business, about retention, and what it means and what they've learned and what the business is going to do about it. It's not an HR issue that somehow outside of the business, there's a business conversation in HRM conversation, like, because he has this regular cadence, where the leadership team, the CEO is the one that's representing the people impacts the business, though, it's fewer questions, for sure. So So then making sure that it's that all the stakeholders are having that. Yeah, right. conversation. Yeah.

Lex Patterson: 57:33

And last time we talked, you had a really cool metaphor, or actually more than metaphor was an example of coffee. Tell the listeners about that?

Unknown: 57:43

Yeah, no, you're right. So something very simple. That happened in Visio. We were growing and we changed offices. And we're looking at things that were detractors or whatever, and something again, just asking around it. And as we changed offices, when we in a small office, we had this really nice espresso machine, you press the button that grown the beans and created steam and produce these wonderful cups of coffee. When we shifted offices, I got pumped in a cupboard and kind of forgotten about because then all the rush, and we got the, you know, large scale industrial coffee producing machines, and instead, because the furor, and we didn't, didn't really know, it wasn't until we asked like, you know, what is it? Or what's about the new office? Do you like, do you hate, and it just came back is like the coffee machine, the coffee machine, the coffee machine? Like, you know, a large portion of coding runs on caffeine. I think.

Lex Patterson: 58:42

I hear you jet fuel. Yeah, exactly.

Unknown: 58:44

And so just the really simple thing about supporting that espresso machine versus the mass produced coffee, you know, in the big scheme of things, we might have thought, Oh, well, we need to pay more or whatever. Just that simple piece of insight. allowed the machines to be brought back in, we actually got to so we could cover people better. Yeah. So you know, we sort of double down having heard the field double, then we don't want to just respond, we want to kind of elevate, and so we end up with two machines, and I have always appreciated the great coffee.

Lex Patterson: 59:20

Yeah. Well, it's the action of that. Right. So you listened, you did the active Listen, listening that was there and then came back with an action that was noticeable to the employees. And I think that's really what the key is with that. Yeah. So let's talk a minute about what do you think about as we move forward into this new normal? Do you think vision of purpose in a company is going to play a bigger part in the new normal and maybe speak to that a little bit?

Unknown: 59:51

Yeah, absolutely. I've been tracking this story quite carefully. There As a group called Edelman, they produce a Trust Barometer. Okay. And they, they kind of track the sentiment on income consumers around. What do you think about corporations? What do you think about government, etc. And one of the interesting components and what they track is this, the shift from trusting government to trust in the corporation. And then the shift from a focus on no corporations should make money to corporations should do good. There's a dynamic as well, from the the Gen, the younger generations have grown up in a world that's more compelled by corporations should do good, they shouldn't just make profit. And so there's been a steady shift. So we now have majority of millennials and Gen Z in the workforce. And so employees are making choices around, I want to work for something where it's not just about its paycheck, it's not just about showing up, this is not I do work, and I do my life. If I can do something through work that makes my life meaningful, then I'm going to choose that. So understanding, communicating, creating purpose around the work you do, is is really, really important. Even more, depending on the demographics in your business, but even more so as you're looking to attract a younger generation to work for you. It's, it's always been there. And there's always been a certain portion of companies that work that way, five, or 10%, who were very standout, that's becoming more and more prevalent, more and more important piece of it. So yeah, people are looking for purpose, they always have, but the opportunity to kind of access it is way higher now.

Lex Patterson: 1:01:46

Yeah. And I feel like in the discussions, I've had to like the the authenticity of brand promise, you know, which really correlates back to the customer, of course, obviously, your brand with the customer, but it also really is about the brand promise to your, to your employees to right,

Unknown: 1:02:04

but teach the I think that's a, there's a large focus on diversity, equity and inclusion, as a number of companies that have been making public facing statements around, you know, the level of diversity they wish to achieve, that, in the past, a lot of people have been like, Great, fantastic. Now, with the internet, and the availability and the transparency of data, a lot of activist employees are going like, well, we set this well. What are we what are we doing about it? What's progress about it? Like they have a, they are holding leaders far more accountable for their statements, they're the balance of available information and requirement to be, you know, to follow through on those those commitments. And, you know, the embarrassment if you're proven not to it's, it's in the media, there's a there's a very different world, a much more transparent, much more open much more much higher expectations from from others that you will do what you say, and the ability to kind of track that through. So yeah, the the alignment and authenticity of what you do with what you say you're going to do. It's absolutely, absolutely essential.

Lex Patterson: 1:03:21

Yeah, well, and also the transparency issue. And, you know, I think what happens a lot of times that I've noticed lately in this is all the way down big companies are making this mistake as much as little companies are but the transparency of purpose. Beyond profit. Yes. You know, they get into this court, go go ahead. Yeah. I mean,

Unknown: 1:03:45

profit as an outcome of pursuing your purpose. So purpose first, leading to profit as as the profit as the sole motive? Yeah, I know, I think that that's a that's a pivot that many, many organizations are going

Lex Patterson: 1:03:59

through. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, people get behind the why. And we all know that we need to make the money, you know, to be a successful business. That's why, but, but friend of mine always says, you know, value precedes, you know, profits. And so really focusing on what that brand promise is and what the value that you're providing is and locking into that right.

Unknown: 1:04:22

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's one of the key ways that organizations will navigate their way through the great resignation. Yeah, sort of no closing loop. But it's also it's not a quick fix, fix you. You got to kind of work at the core of what your business is about. Get alignment, get communication, get consistency. Yeah. To establish that as a change. Yeah,

Lex Patterson: 1:04:45

for sure. Yeah. Well, Ian, if you could give our listeners permission. In other words, you could write a permission slip for one thing, what would it be?

Unknown: 1:04:58

Yeah, so I think But the one thing that I always feel people need permission for is this is this notion of reflection, that we often get busy. We feel like we're only effective when we're, you know, sitting doing things. And so, you know, I think the the permission, slip is his time off to make sure you're reflecting on how the business is working, how people are working, how we need to work to go forward. So that you're you're working smarter, not necessarily harder.

Lex Patterson: 1:05:33

Yeah, that's a great one that's very, very insightful. Reminds me Do you know, Cal Newport, though. So Cal, Newports, professors written a couple books, one that I read was called deep work. And I listened to him on a podcast recently, and he was talking about the importance of segmenting the activity that we're doing in our jobs versus our purpose of it, you know, and so many times he was pointing out that we get caught up in the activity of work versus what our purpose really is. And his example, one of his main examples was email, you know, constantly checking email. But yet, in reality for a lot of thought, jobs, you know, where you're having to do deep thinking and really get into programmers are a great example of that, because, you know, they have to focus on something that's actually counterproductive to have to be reacting to email all the time. And so, segment that set that aside, put autoresponders try and, you know, if you're on the front end line of a call center, or whatever, you can't necessarily ignore the incoming calls that but but again, that's your purpose, you know, so it really kind of dovetails into that. So it's it's kind of an interesting thought with that. But I love that. Yeah, that's that's a great. And I think the that's one of the things that's the the pandemic's really brought to light too, is that introspection area of things, right, because we've had a little bit of time to do that. We haven't been on that treadmill, just running and running. And we've had a little pause, and it's it's actually quite refreshing. I hope we don't go back to that other way. Yeah, yes,

Unknown: 1:07:14

I'm with you there, Lex. Yeah.

Lex Patterson: 1:07:16

So maybe to sum up our conversation a couple of ways here. Don't be afraid to experiment, and learn and think beyond the schedule. And maybe let's use this opportunity to reshape our work to better fit our lives. Let's work together to eliminate the commute, and endless and meaningless meetings, and the long hours of sitting in that gray cubby that you mentioned. And instead, think about better education, mentoring, coaching, more flexibility, building better connections, and better cultures of trust and balance.

Unknown: 1:07:54

Yeah, thanks a great summary. It we're, we're sort of feel that we are in a enlighten enlightened employers are understanding the need to build a different way of working. And that the only the only way to do that is with employees. But listening, co creation is not doing everything employees want always but actually just trying to find that balance that how do we make this work better for all of us in the future?

Lex Patterson: 1:08:19

Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate you joining me.

Unknown: 1:08:23

It's been a pleasure. Good, fun conversation.

Lex Patterson: 1:08:26

Thank you, and thank you. Have a good day. Thanks for listening everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today. Visit the show notes on the episode page at Kindred force comm. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts on Spotify, on Amazon music, or on Google podcasts. Sharing the show, or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates and the inside scoop, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on any page of our website at Kindred force calm. I appreciate the love and support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you again for listening. See you next time.