The Inner Game of Change
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change podcast, where we dive deep into the complexities of managing organisational change. Tailored for leaders, change practitioners, and anyone driving transformation, our episodes explore key topics like leadership, communication, change capability, and process design. Expert guests share practical strategies and insights to help you navigate and lead successful change initiatives. Listen in to learn fresh ideas and perspectives from a variety of industries, and gain the tools and knowledge you need to lead transformation with confidence. Explore our episodes at www.theinnergameofchange.com.au, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Youtube or anywhere you listen to your podcasts.
The Inner Game of Change
E91 - The Change Maker Who Started a University! - Podcast With Sasha Thackaberry-Voinovich
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast where we explore the unseen forces that shape how we lead, adapt, and thrive in the face of change and transformation.
On today’s episode, I am speaking with someone who is not just talking about fixing higher education; she is building a new one from the ground up.
Sasha Thackaberry-Voinovich is a change maker in every sense of the word. As Founder and President of Newstate University, a skills-first, competency-based online university, she is on a mission to lift people into the middle class without burying them in debt.
Sasha has spent her career leading innovation at some of the biggest names in higher ed, but when she saw the limits of tweaking the old system, she chose a different path; AI-first, student-centred, and free of the red tape that stops too many learners at the door.
In our conversation, Sasha opens up about decision making under uncertainty, the courage and risk appetite needed to lead big change, and the execution discipline that turns vision into results. She is candid, she is bold, and she is relentlessly focused on impact.
I am grateful to have Sasha chatting with me today.
About Sasha
Sasha Thackaberry (@sashatberr) is a higher education leader in innovative learning models and the effective use of eLearning systems. She is currently the Founder and President of Newstate University, a skills-first, competency-based, online university with fully stackable certificates and degrees. www.newstateu.com
She previously served as the President of SkillsWave, a rollout of a company from D2L when she was Senior Vice President of Wave at D2L, an upskilling platform that serves as a matchmaker between corporations needing upskilling, and education partners delivering excellence in learning.
She has supported teams and grown enrollments across a range of institutions, including as the Vice President of Student and Partner Services at Pearson, as Vice President for Online and Continuing Education at Louisiana State University, and as Assistant Vice President for Academic Technology and New Learning Models at Southern New Hampshire University. She was previously the District Director of eLearning Technologies for the Office of eLearning and Innovation (eLi) at Cuyahoga Community College, responsible for both operational support for eLearning technologies and for innovative learning projects. In that role she led the administration and front end support for Blackboard Learn, as well as other academic technologies. She also led Quality Matters initiatives at Tri-C, including serving as the QM Coordinator. She has consulted for higher education organizations, for corporations in their eLearning efforts, and in the K-12 sector.
Presentations include local, state, and national conferences, general sessions and keynotes, and enjoys writing in the field. Her PhD in Educational Administration - Higher Education is from Kent State University, as is her Masters in the Art of Teaching.
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heading in the right direction. A series of incremental changes. That's just. That's really hard, I think, even at really fantastic innovative institutions, and part of it is because of the structure right. The structure of higher ed evolved over, you know, a long period of time and we're still having some significant growing pains. It has to do with a lot of it not all of it, but a lot of it has to do with the economics behind how higher ed is funded and incentivized and it prevents wholesale change from happening. I think people like me, who are truly privileged to be able to step outside and make and take a big risk Right, there are a lot of people who are doing really innovative things and taking big risks in higher education and in K-12 education, and I think we need more of that we need more of that.
Ali:Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast where we explore the unseen forces that shape how we lead, adapt and thrive in the face of change and transformation. I am Ali Jimar. On today's episode, I'm speaking with someone who is not just talking about fixing higher education. She's building a new one from the ground up.
Ali:Sasha Takerbury-Vojnovich is a changemaker in every sense of the word. As founder and president of New State University, a skills-first, competency-based online university, she's on a mission to lift people into the middle class without burying them in debt. Sasha has spent her career leading innovation as some of the biggest names in higher education, but when she saw the limits of tweaking the old system, she chose a different path AI first, student-centered and free of the red tape that stops too many learners at the door. In our conversation, sasha opens up about decision-making under uncertainty, the courage and risk appetite needed to lead big change, and the execution discipline that turns vision into results. She is candid, she is bold and she is relentlessly focused on impact. I am grateful to have Sasha chatting with me today. Well, sasha, thank you so much for joining me in the Inner Game of Change podcast. I am eternally grateful for your time.
Sasha:Thank you for having me. I very much appreciate it.
Ali:Sasha, it will be fantastic to tell my audience about who you are, what you do and maybe what drives you nuts in this world.
Sasha:Oh yeah, that's a very long list, but first of all, I love the overall fields that you have expertise in, because I feel like I've been doing sort of a version of that in my career in higher ed. What animates me really is we have to do better in terms of lifting people into the middle class. It's a real challenge in the US, but it's also a challenge globally right. But we've had, in developed countries in particular, there are some challenges in terms of folks' skills staying up to speed with the changes that are happening in business. The last decade has been great for a lot of people, but also it has been very challenging for a lot of people and we need to find ways to support people to get really awesome skills without a ton of debt.
Sasha:Like, debt is a huge problem in the US and educational debt is enormous. I think it's up to one point seven trillion dollars, which you know other developed countries. I don't think always understand the scope of that, because higher ed is funded so differently in different places. Yes, but people have had to make like massive life decisions based on having one hundred thousand dollars in student loans, $100,000 in student loans or $30,000 in student loans. You know it's. It's something that doesn't need to happen. We can make higher education more affordable and and right now that is like the sole focus is how do we get people the right skills so that they can have an upward trajectory for their families. Then we can do some real community building out of that. But people are worried, right, and we have to solve the problem at hand.
Ali:Solving the problem can be a tricky business. Sasha, I'm keen to go into a rabbit hole around. When do we decide that we need to make some changes, and when do we decide that we need to even change the whole system?
Sasha:Yes, that's so interesting because you know Clayton Christensen and this sort of model of disruptive innovation. That's not ultimately the goal right. The goal is more continual innovation, change that can happen productively and with everyone sort of heading in the right direction, a series of incremental changes. That's just. That's really hard, I think, even at really fantastic innovative institutions, and part of it is because of the structure right. The structure of higher ed evolved over, you know, a long period of time and we're still having some significant growing pains. It has to do with a lot of it not all of it, but a lot of it has to do with the economics behind how higher ed is funded and incentivized and it prevents wholesale change from happening.
Sasha:And that's where I think people like me who are truly privileged to be able to step outside and take a big risk right, there are a lot of people who are doing really innovative things and taking big risks in higher education and in K-12 education, and I think we need more of that. On a fundamental level, what we're building, the institution that we're building, is going to be disruptive in two ways. In two ways one in what we build ourselves and two in what we sort of push the edges of the center on right. So there's a typical bell curve in terms of like, where people are, innovation, cost, curriculum, faculty models, disruptors on the edge sort of shift the middle. I mean you even look at what's happened because of some of the large institutions that have a large online presence. It has moved the middle. So I think wholesale change absolutely is necessary because it'll create something new, but also because it'll push the middle.
Ali:And that will be very challenging for a lot of well-established organizations, especially in the education sector. They've got their traditions, their norms. How do we inspire change in these organizations? Let me put this question this way Do we get dragged into making the changes, meaning the market will demand what the education system would need to do? Or is it the other way, which is an education system still a business in many ways and then they try to push for their agenda because they are the thinkers and the researchers? Or is it a combination of the two? Or is it technology? In our situation, Artificial intelligence is asking some big questions from all businesses. What's your sense of that?
Sasha:Yeah, I think it's really an all of the above, but in different, varying amounts, right? So, in order to be effective at change from within an organization, you absolutely have to have a coalition, right. You have to have your first movers. You've got to have innovative faculty. If you don't have faculty who are willing to take risks, that doesn't happen. In terms of the disruption that's coming from AI, I think it is going to be. I think it's going to be demand focused change, as opposed to like supply side change. Right, Like educational institutions are comfortable. It's just. It's the way it's been for decades.
Sasha:And yes, things have changed over the past 25 years. Absolutely, they have, but if you look at the overall structure, not actually that much, right, and so that's where I think we have an opportunity. But there is so much risk involved right now at this moment, I think even more so than historically and in the US at least, we have some very interesting regional demographic patterns that are really going to be influencing this. So I do think that we're going to see more disruptors in the Northeast and Midwest and some areas out West, because of the demographics that are changing. They're going to be pushing the edge in terms of what they're willing to do for adult learners, simply because we're going to have less traditionally aged learners, but also because what so many businesses are clamoring for is people who can learn, who can learn fast, who can pick up new things. It's a different world and humans are actually not well suited to this world.
Sasha:Yes, Because we're so comfortable, we get into these. You know, our brain takes shortcuts all the time, which is, of course, also one of the dangers of working with AI is that you just reinforce the same patterns over and over, Whereas learning true learning like you need to reform the brain, Whereas learning true learning like you need to reform the brain right. And so those tensions are going to just continue to play out, but most people are going to just have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. That's the biggest change. That's exactly what your podcast is called the Inner Game of Change. That's going to be like. The biggest cultural change is internal.
Ali:Internal change. For the outer, a new world. Basically, you are, in my eyes, a decision maker. I'm just really curious about what sort of internal compass that you have to actually guide you through whether you're going to make this decision or this decision. Some of us rely a lot on data. Some of us rely a lot on observations. Some of us get dragged into making decisions. Talk to me about your decision-making process.
Sasha:Yeah, sure. So I like to start with my own fallibility. Yes, so I think it is actually very healthy to to not believe that you are right all of the time, so that when those moments come, when you have true clarity about the path ahead, you know to trust them because they're based on the data that you have gathered from the world Right. So, for instance, to trust them because they're based on the data that you have gathered from the world right. So, for instance, in launching New State University, there is an immense amount of data about demand that's out there. There's no lack of indications. But when you filter through all of it, getting rid of the noise and focusing on the signal like that, that then becomes your North Star. But there's so many pivots in between, like already with New State we've seen. We've gotten feedback on the courses. We're changing things, iterating things as we go, so you have to listen to the feedback.
Sasha:But I think where most decision makers? I think there's two main things that decision makers sort of get wrong traditionally. One is really like sunk cost right. People will just keep going in a direction that they've committed to long after. It looks like it's a good idea, instead of pivoting when you have the chance to pivot Right, and that's been well documented.
Sasha:Leaders make terrible decisions because they've said them publicly Right. And then the second thing actually sort of in my decision making process is to sort of interrogate yourself, which really I guess goes back to the first thing in my process, which is, in any situation, in any given situation, first check yourself. It is like that ceaseless inquiry into why are you making that decision and to give yourself a little space. People make decisions too fast. I did this so often in my career as I would have a hallway conversation, I would be trying to get stuff done fast and I would make a fast decision without complete information. Now, you're never going to get 100% of information. A lot of leaders do the opposite to. They wait too long, they're trying to gather too much data, they don't get the thing like. They don't make the decision in time for the decision to have impact. So I realize that's a bit of a balance, but for me, that sort of like ceaseless inquiry as to why you are making that call.
Sasha:Is it really data based? Are you really reading the signs correctly? Are you making that decision based out of ego? You know, even in this like it sort of sounds.
Sasha:People have said like, oh, you're so confident or you know it's. It's a big thing to do, sort of to step out of something and try to build something big and bold and new that you're convinced is going to help a lot of people. And so you do have to make sure that that's not just an ego thing. I can confidently tell you it's not, because leading something that's little and that's really not yet secure or locked in is a humbling thing. You know you got it Like I was building courses earlier today. I was configuring something in HubSpot. We're figuring out stuff in QuickBooks like we are leader doers. This team is leader doers like next level, and I have to rely on them too. I think good decision making starts absolutely with data, but you can follow data down a path to hell. You know data can tell you so many different things. You've got to continually check yourself because you can interpret that data any number of ways.
Ali:What is the role of the advisors that usually work with the leaders? Because everybody looks up to the leader to make a decision and it's a tragedy sometimes that you've got leaders that they just want more data and more data, and more data. And we are driven by the desire to see leaders who do not procrastinate and then wait for data, who do not procrastinate and then wait for data. In their eyes, in the leader's eye, they think they are being considerate. In our eyes, we think they are being paralyzed by the weight of data and whether they're going to make a decision to go left or right or continue. How do you carry that weight of decision-making responsibility?
Sasha:Wow, yeah. So from an advisor perspective, well, first of all, I think people do this wrong all the time. It's very instructive to watch it fall apart, just as it is instructive to watch it happen really well. But I think the smartest leaders surround themselves with people that they trust but they don't always agree with, and they don't always agree with in a way in which it almost cuts to the bone, right when someone can really say, no, we need to make this call, we need to follow this direction. Or, sasha, how come you're changing something? Because we all thought that this was the thing. And really, if you can't trust your advisors to not just be your Jiminy Cricket but really to interrogate you very trust driven way, I don't think you get there, and the data that you get should be sized to the weight of the decision. Right, like what's the worst.
Sasha:This is one of the things that's great about higher ed, especially online higher ed is you make a mistake. Typically nobody dies like. We are not dealing with life or death situations. I mean, I haven't yet heard of one in online higher education. I'm sure there haven't yet heard of one in online higher education. I'm sure there's been some sort of something at some point.
Sasha:But typically the decisions that we make are can we make something better? Now I will tell you, academics always assume that interventions which is funny because they're so smart Academics assume that additional interventions will have a positive effect or a neutral effect. They typically don't think what if this positive educational intervention is actually going to have a negative effect. So we need to I guess we need to specifically look more critically at data, but we shouldn't wait for all of the data and we need the people that we work with to bring us their opinions along with that data. But yeah, I mean, if you can't make the call with like what do they say, 70 or 80% of the data, it better be like a momentous decision, right?
Sasha:Like it has to be, it has to be really big to pause.
Ali:Yeah, I like the idea that I've seen leaders asking their advisors to behave that way, meaning they've got the permission and the green light to scrutinize opinions and decisions before they go public. That's their job and that's their responsibility. I can't see this happening all the time in the higher ed, knowing that's a very hierarchical structure and therefore, unless you are chief of staff or something, I think it will be very hard for somebody to say, well, I'm not sure you're actually right in this situation. So that's how I'm imagining the conversation and I'm not a stranger to those conversations and those settings, and so I've seen it. But I've also seen the majority of leaders, regardless of where they come from or their style. They do appreciate an honest piece of feedback or a piece of reflection, because they now, I think, every regardless, as I mentioned, of whether somebody is driven by ego or not, they still want to succeed and sometimes they have their inner circle of people to actually give them advice.
Sasha:Yeah, I do think that, depending on the structure of the organization, it can be harder or easier to do that Because, to your point on the hierarchy, in many cases in higher ed you're not actually hiring your team unless you're at a very senior level and you can like literally bring in your team, but a lot of times you inherit a team.
Sasha:If you're on the provost side, if you're on the academic side, you could have people working for you who you'll be working for one day, or if you're both at the same institution and you're tenured, people will stay for literally decades. It complicates things because nobody wants to, I don't think, rock the boat too much, right, like you don't want to be ostracized in your own field if you're really at home in an institution, and that. I do think that the academic structure of provosts and deans and program directors and how sort of weirdly fluid that can be at the same time as it like sits in a very rigid structure. I think that that is also a challenge because if you can't, if folks have independent agendas surrounding the leader as opposed to like getting on board with a clear vision, it can be really complicated. I've seen it done well only a couple of times.
Ali:I want to ask you a question around designing education for equity and impact. If you're thinking about the higher education sector now, like deep inside of you, what do you think we need to stop immediately doing?
Sasha:So the first thing I would do, if I could do one one thing in higher ed, it would be to pull off the red tape. It would. It wouldn't even be the teaching and learning part, which we absolutely also need to evolve. But we cannot serve people if we cannot get them through the front door and unfortunately, at least at least in the US, that system has not one front door, but like 15 ante rooms. You come into and there's a hallway and then there's another door at the end of it in the hallway and then likes like nobody at the institutions that are working in these horrible processes enjoy that, but these processes are so sticky and frustrating and if you don't have enough tenacity to get through having all of the paperwork on time to start on a specific day because it's cohort based, or oh, if you miss this, or oh if your mom gets sick or if your kids get sick, like you have to reschedule.
Sasha:All of that red tape is stuff that prevents people from moving ahead, and when you're from a family that has support or that has means you're from a family that has support or that has means you can figure those things out more easily.
Sasha:When you're from a family that has less support, less flexibility. Maybe you're working more jobs, maybe you don't have backup babysitters, you do not have time to put one more piece of paperwork on something, or when you reschedule something and you have to push your course out six months instead of two weeks, which is what you need. That's a fundamental barrier. When people look at like higher education and they think, oh, we don't have the right completion rates, you know what do we need to do? The first answer is never. Fundamentally restructure how people start education. Fundamentally restructure how they started and how they continue, because course schedules are a huge barrier and that's not a sexy answer and that's not a fun, but that's what I would rip off. Rip the heck off that bandaid Because it's it's not serving students, it's not serving institutions, it's expensive, it's dead weight, it's like soul crushing.
Ali:You're talking about the admission process here for students. Is that right?
Sasha:Admissions and also continued like registration. I think both of those things I mean, if you get into the curricular side of it, because it is very tightly connected, like looking at course sequences, what actually has to be a prerequisite, like what level of objective math is needed for something. I know that sounds like a silly question, but like people, people stop their degrees because of math, because of math, right, sometimes because of english too. I'm not trying to pick on math, I'm just saying like the relevance matters, the sequence of courses matters, are there hidden courses? Like just all of that can go away, it absolutely can go away. We're just unwilling to do it.
Ali:And you think these shackles are actually imposed internally and not by external bodies?
Sasha:I would say both, and I think that some of the regulatory components, things having to also do with accreditation it's not always the regulation and it's not always the accreditation. It's the internal policies and procedures that institutions put in place to comply with those. A lot of times, institutions can actually make decisions, as long as they consistently apply them, as long as they have the policies and procedures, as long as they follow their own playbook. If they are clear and consistent and it meets the standards, there's actually quite a lot of flexibility. The problem right now is so many people have this technical debt and you know, infrastructure debt and their entire people. How people interact is based on quote unquote. The way things are. It's so many people want these things to evolve, but they're trying to do it from within. It's really hard.
Sasha:I actually think now is the time to build a parallel structure, whatever that is any institution, build a parallel structure. Start from scratch, start with modern technology, start AI first, build up new policies, new procedures, make it easy for the student and then you can transit once it's stable. Once it's stable, once it's systemized, once you know that it works, you can start transitioning your existing students over. But there's such an emphasis in these institutions on oh, we have to change, like our entire CRM or our entire SIS, our entire LMS, all of our data stuff, stuff that we use for reporting on, you know, whatever you don't have to. You don't have to try to rip out one giant system at a time and stick it back in because the rest of that stuff is still mucky. You just gotta. You gotta start with a blank sheet, and that's what we did at New State University and I'm loving it. But it's not like we're not extra special. Anybody could do it. You just have to do it.
Ali:You've decided that trying to fix something internally is too messy, is going to take a lot of time and you might not get the results. So you've decided lot of time and you might not get the results. So you've decided I'm going to go aside and actually start from scratch, and knowing what you know, I'm always curious about how leaders make the big decisions and the importance of previous knowledge. I strongly believe that good change makers and the heaps of them around the world they all have something in common around wisdom, knowledge, experience, maybe good people having around them, but I haven't seen a good changemaker or an impactful one that doesn't have all of these qualities.
Sasha:So that's super interesting because I do think. I really do think experience matters. But when I said about this endeavor, I very much doubted myself because I am not 22 years old creating a startup. I did not go to an Ivy League institution, I do not have a pedigree, I have no rich uncle writing million dollar checks. But if you actually look at the data again back to the data if you look at the data behind people who successfully start businesses, I am the profile and the team that I have created is literally the profile for statistically the most likely to be successful People who have deep experience in their field, people who have started businesses that have made a lot of money before, which I've not done that outside of institutions, but I have very well built entrepreneurial businesses within institutions.
Sasha:People who have advanced degrees are actually masters and PhDs are actually overly represented in the group of successful business founders. People in their mid 40s, I mean there are a lot of if you look at the actual data of women founded businesses perform better over time than men founded business. I don't have anything wrong with men, by the way, I'm a big fan married to one but I do think when you talk about, like previous knowledge. It's interesting because you have, like, all the knowledge at your fingertips. I actually think there's a fundamental sort of shift going on in how we think about knowledge and expertise. I really believe there's a fundamental sort of shift going on in how we think about knowledge and expertise. I really believe that expertise is collective now, not individual.
Sasha:But knowledge matters because, even though any sort of AI can get you an answer and it can sound great, you have to be able to call BS, and you only know when and how to call BS if you actually know your content area right.
Sasha:Even well-informed people make bad decisions all the time, but you're certainly going to make a bad decision if you're basing it on factually incorrect information. So I think experience has a lot to do with it. The other thing that you know there's a lot of research around creativity. I definitely think that change makers embrace creativity right, and some of that research shows that you actually have to have a broad base of knowledge to pull from in order to be successfully creative. I guess and I do have a bit of an advantage there because I grew up in what I like to call the creative class my parents are actors. They ran professional theaters. I started actually as a dancer back in the day and I think that the ability to execute on something is really important, because change isn't just about the ideas, it isn't just about the decisions, but it's about getting the thing done. I think that's where a lot of initiatives fail is even once everything is together, it fails in execution, like you've got to be able to execute.
Ali:The execution piece is really an important piece because everybody's got, most people have got ideas and anybody can talk till the cows come home. Society does need those people who are doers and that's why sometimes we say we do change, we don't make it. We actually there's a lot of doing in the change and I suppose that's one of the what I call the courage gaps in leaders and professionals to actually make the change, because we are not naive to the risk and to the difficulties we're going to face in implementing the change. Everybody wants, so lots of people want to travel, but to travel you need to have a budget, you need to have time, you need to have means. Everybody wants to be fit, but the price is to apply the plan, to go to the gym or to work on your diet. So, can you see, any change requires the courage to continue with that. And I suppose, when you talked about execution, I am a strong believer that changemakers focus on the details of the execution as well and not just the launch.
Sasha:Absolutely.
Sasha:I think you have to be able to zoom in and zoom out right. You have to be able to get granular. You have to be able to work on a workflow and HubSpot and make sure something's working Like you have to. You have to get into the weeds sometimes to be able to zoom out and see the whole forest right. There were two things that that you hit on there that I think really are important for changemakers. The first is risk appetite for risk right.
Sasha:So when I was, when I graduated from college this was before there's been a lot of legislation in the US since then when I graduated from college, I was kicked off of my parents healthcare plan right. I knew that I was 21. I knew this was gonna happen. That's how it works in the US and I knew I needed healthcare right. A lot of kids my age I'm so 21, a lot of kids my age didn't right, like they just sort of started pursuing other paths. I knew I needed that security and so you choose things based on your risk assessment of what's important to you at that time. I've never been risk averse. I have been risk stupid before you take an unnecessary and stupid risk at the same time. But I think I've learned from that to take smarter risks. But you're right, it absolutely does take courage, because success when you're the changemaker and you do it right, if you're doing it right, success is collective, but failure is individual. If you, I'll never forget, I was at an institution doing a really, really big project and it was not. It was either going to be embraced or it wasn't. And it could have, it could have not gone well. And one of the most senior people at the institution took me to the side and said Sasha, if this goes wrong, I'm going to be fine for this, but I'm worried for you, right? If this goes wrong, you know it's coming back on you and I appreciated the acknowledgement of that because that's like, if we can call it courage, I think more people will have it. And that ended up working out very well, that project, and it became a huge collective success and it was truly collective. It wasn't me that did it, there was a whole group of people. I mean like everybody was doing this thing. It was amazing.
Sasha:But you have to acknowledge that your individual failure may need a life change for you, right, like it may mean a career change, it may mean whatever. So you do have to have people who are changemakers, who are willing to, I guess, trust themselves, and the risk has to be worth it to them. But I also think that there is, I think, impatience is underrated, and here's why Because people who are good at change are typically also really good at communication. But you also have to be intensely dissatisfied with the status quo to be willing to take the risk and I do think that is a personality trait is people who are inherently impatient, frustrated, don't like the way things are. I see that as a very important profile for a society to have, because if people are happy with the way things are, I see that as a very important profile for a society to have, because if people are happy with the way things are, and maybe they're sort of in trouble here and there, you're not going to change.
Sasha:One other thing that you had talked about was like there are a lot of people who want to do stuff but they're not willing to put in the work for execution. Maybe they don't even know what the work for execution is Like half the time. You don't know what it is until you get into it. So you have to be committed to seeing it through, right, but I think it goes to delay of gratification. So this is something like with my kids that I've done before and then I know a lot of parents do. Is you actually create delay of gratification tasks, right? You're like, okay, well, if you do these hard things then we can do this other thing, or you only get this through this other amount of effort. Fitness is based on delay of gratification. Higher ed is based on delay of gratification.
Sasha:My PhD was brutal, not because the classes were brutal, it was brutal because I had two babies while I was doing it and consulting. I paid my way through my own PhD, moved halfway across the country. That was like an exercise in delay of gratification. You have to be a stubborn SOB sometimes to get something done, and if people are not prepared for the incremental sacrifices and you can call it pain, I mean I feel like as a society we should embrace pain a little bit more. Like life is not fluffy. There is no cloud of cotton candy there to you know, insulate you from the world. Pain is instructive, right, and so incremental pain to get to a big success totally worth it, right, like, absolutely worth it. Put in the work, go to the gym make it happen, but it's I mean, it's hard.
Sasha:I remember one of these lifestyle things that I was involved in used to say that, like character trumps willpower, any day of the week you have to decide who it is you want to be and act like that person. It becomes part of your character. You don't have to have willpower, it is who you are. They call this in fitness. They call it like oh, it's your lifestyle. I don't know, that seems sort of, I don't know. It feels frivolous to me to just say oh, it's your lifestyle, it's your character, it's who you want to be in the world every single day. And like I, am a straight up daily failure at so many things, but you got to push it. You got to push it every single day. You got to do the work.
Ali:I've made the decision ages ago in my life that and you call it a character that doing the uncomfortable things is just part of it and going to the gym. I no longer negotiate with myself. I actually do it Just part of my day, not even a lifestyle. Just it is what it is Like doing work, it's what it is and therefore I actually eliminated any decision-making process. I do not negotiate with myself and all of these. I've already decided the value of it and then I moved on. Talking about the value, how important is it for change makers to keep the momentum of change going? Because you can spark a change. But you and I know that you can start a marathon in the first five kilometers and the excitement around it, but the marathon is not really there.
Sasha:The marathon is always won when you cross the line. So how do you keep that change momentum in, there need to celebrate your incremental victories? You've got to do it. You have to, you have to, you know, have the opening night put, get the performance up. You have to have, you have to have moments. This is just a human thing, like, as humans, we have to have those moments where we were like we did this thing, whatever this thing is. You have to acknowledge and celebrate those accomplishments as you go. You have to recognize you're a badass, like if, if, if you're truly executing, then you are doing something right and you've got to reinforce that right. It all goes back to essentially, if you go, if you go to the core of everything, it's about right, like neuroscience and how we're wired as humans, right, novelty is something that all of us crave at different variations, right, different levels, but those moments, I think, really, really matter. And then the second thing I would say is the concept of the cookie jar. So are you familiar with that one?
Ali:Have a go.
Sasha:If you're into like a healthy lifestyle. Maybe it's called the cookie jar, but the concept of a cookie jar is really that you actually write out for yourself all of the accomplishments. Like here are the things I actually did. Right, because we get caught up in the busyness of the day to day and we don't reflect on ourselves as extraordinary, like each of us is the hero in our own journey. Each of us has a path and each of us has has accomplished things. There are things that I have worked my ass off on, that I got done, and those are things that you have to remind yourself of. So it was. I think it was like this what do you call it when people do like multiple marathons at a time? It's like the length of like multiple marathons.
Ali:Well, there are quite a few events. There are quite a few events in the world where they do multiple marathons at the same time. I did one in Moroccan desert. It was six days, six marathons. I wake up every day and run a marathon in the desert and then go back and sleep.
Sasha:That is impressive, yeah, but talking about the idea of pain, yes, yes, I think that people who can do that, like there is that sort of well and this fellow just happened to call it a cookie jar where you put sort of all of your accomplishments and you think to yourself, well, I did that thing and that was terrible, like that was difficult, that was painful, that was terrible. I can take this next step, okay. So the next step is painful, okay, but I did this other thing. You know, like, have your cookie jar of the things you've accomplished. That goes back to experience too. Right, if you have accomplished other things, you know you can do. The next thing doesn't mean it'll be easy. It'll probably be painful, it'll be hard, you'll have to rely on the people that you're with. It'll be painful and hard for them at points too, but you know you can do it because you've done other hard things.
Ali:There's a principle that I was not a principle, but a thought in my head that when we fail, we fail honestly, meaning we look at our failure and then we learn from that and we have to be good at that. I've learned a lot from the sports people and how they reflect on their success and failure at the same time. Some people don't want to call it failure. It doesn't matter for me. What do you think of that?
Sasha:Absolutely. It's something that I think good leaders need to do. I've been a person that journals for years and years and years, right, and so, again, it's just part of your practice, whatever your practice is. But my daughter's in jujitsu she's kind of amazing and she's this tiny little thing and it's all about like right, leverage and strength. But you are constantly. You're constantly like fighting and grappling, and there's this saying you either you either win or you learn, right, and the learn part is is the super important piece you have to go through. You have to, you have to, monday morning, quarterback yourself, right, you have to go through the whole. What happened, what was good, what was that? What would I do again? And also, I also think you have to acknowledge things that are out of your control, right, so you have to pivot. You have to do you may have to pivot more than you thought you did because of macro forces.
Sasha:The other thing that I think successful people do is they don't. They don't hang on to failure either. Right, you have to be the goldfish. This is what my son also plays, plays random sports, and when something goes wrong, it's so tempting to hold on to that for the whole game. Right, like I did this thing, that was wrong, I'm going to do it again, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have to be the goldfish in those moments, so you have to be able to sit back, reflect, analyze. Try to do it without getting your ego involved, though we all know that's impossible, so try to minimize your ego's involvement in what happened. But then you have to be the goldfish right, and you have to make sure that. You have to make sure that how you feel about a temporary failure does not impact how you perform long term.
Ali:I want to shift gear and I want to ask you about. We are in the business of change management. We work with a lot of stakeholders. What would be your advice for us when it comes to helping leaders manage change?
Sasha:So I think the first thing is you, especially in higher education, you have to understand who you're working with.
Sasha:It's not just do you need a stakeholder from the appropriate office, and it's truly who is that person? What seems to motivate them? What are their relationships with other parts of the institution? What's in it for them? You know, when we talk about risk, there are a lot of people who would be willing to take a risk if it was collective. So how do you do that as a to get your stakeholders to truly be able to walk that with you? And the problem is is sometimes they just won't right. Sometimes there are animating factors that that stakeholders have that you're never going to get them there.
Sasha:But there are certain tools and techniques you can use. So, if you understand who you're working with, there are like consensus tools, getting people on the record, sometimes like the endless committee decision making. There's this book called I think it's called Never Split the Difference. It's written by an FBI hostage negotiator about negotiation and it's super fascinating. But part of like one of the central components of it is you have to get someone to know right, which sounds strange, but you have to get them committed to what their no is in order to sort of find the the yes, that's going to work. But so often people, especially in higher education, they'll try to split the difference, but you never know where someone really stands. And so there are tools like consensus tools I've used before. Does it bring you perfect consensus? Absolutely not. Does it give you a framework for making decisions Like?
Sasha:A lot of times people don't even know what the decision is that they're making, right? So you first you have to make sure your stakeholder group defines the decision Like are we deciding to do this thing or this thing? This is what both of those alternatives look like. And then you need to ultimately get people to say yes or no or why. And there are tools. There's this one really nifty consensus tool where it's like one through six and one is I am enthusiastically in support of this plan and number six is the polite equivalent of over my dead body, right, and the goal is to get everyone to like a four or above. And a four is like the four is. I don't believe in this decision, but I'm going to do everything to support it because I believe in the wisdom of the group.
Sasha:And how those things are even worded is important right, because everybody wants to do something that's wise right, like how we use language with people. To get people on the same page is important, and I think frameworks and tools help you do that, because they help people define what their own no is. A lot of times, people aren't maybe mentally clear on why they're even doing what they're doing, so you have to give them a map to walk through that with you. It doesn't mean they're going to agree, but you have to get them on record at some point in your initiative. You have to get people on record as to how they're going to support it Right. Even if it's reluctant, you have to get the vote. You have to get someone nailed down.
Ali:Talking about never split the difference, and I've read the book and I've listened to Chris multiple times. I think he said something around negotiating is not an act of battle, it's a process of discovery, of discovery, and and I love that because then it changes our mindset when we start talking about influence, and I really love that about them.
Sasha:That influence piece, that sphere of of like influence that you have is powerful. Like even if you go to literature, like would Macbeth have killed the king had it not been for his wife, for the witches, for the influence right, I mean the examples. These are stories that like resonate with us. If we can activate that in other people not the Macbeth part, like avoid the killing of the king, killing of the king but if we can activate in people their role in this bigger thing that we're doing together, I think that is the most powerful thing. And it does take curiosity and people do have their own motivations and everybody's lives are incredibly complex. But if you can see those people, like sometimes you're the hero in your own journey, sometimes you're a side character in someone else's journey and you have to inhabit both those spaces if you want to get anything done.
Ali:Absolutely, and I always say anybody working in the business of change I mean everybody in my eyes is a changemaker in their own ways. I always say at work, we are in the business of building relationships and influence. That is it. Influence is not a dirty word or anything, it's just a matter of can we discover something together. But I'm making an effort and actually coming to the table and I love that, and we are coming to the end of the podcast. I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation, and how would people connect with you, sasha, to the end of the podcast? I'm already enjoying this conversation.
Sasha:And how would people connect with you? Sasha, they can absolutely find us online at newstateu, the letter ucom, and you can find me. You can just email me, sasha, at newstateucom. Feel free, love it. Love the ideas. We want to build something really special to help a lot of people and do it in a way that makes financial sense. So that's what we're going to do.
Ali:And we're going to put all your information in the podcast. Sasha, I want to leave you with something that I thought about over the last couple of days when I was thinking about our conversation. In my eyes, you're already successful, but I think it's important to mention something, and I want to read you so I can give it the integrity it deserves. And Albert Einstein said something like try not to become a person of success, but rather try to become a person of value, and I think that's where you are, sasha. I think you are a person of value and I'm really grateful to have this conversation with you.
Sasha:Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on. I could just keep talking about this stuff. It's so much fun, thank you.
Ali:I will look for another time and space and have another conversation at some stage, Sasha. Until then, stay well and stay safe.
Sasha:Thank you.
Ali:Thank you. Thank you for listening. If you found this episode valuable, remember to subscribe to stay updated on upcoming episodes. Your support is truly appreciated and, by sharing this podcast with your colleagues, friends and fellow change practitioners, it can help me reach even more individuals and professionals who can benefit from these discussions. Remember, and in my opinion, change is an enduring force and you will only have a measure of certainty and control when you embrace it. Until next time, thank you for being part of the Inner Game of Change community. I am Ali Jammah and this is the Inner Game of Change podcast.
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