ASEF Podcast
The American Slovenian Education Foundation (ASEF) is the leading foundation fostering talented individuals and higher education of deserving Slovenians worldwide through its exchange Fellowship programs and promotion of Slovenian culture and language. In the ASEF Podcast, we interview professors about their research, best practices in their field, and their vision for the development of the field in Slovenia as well as collaboration amongst Slovenians worldwide.
Visit us at https://www.asef.net/ or reach us at podcast@asef.net.
The podcast's introductory theme is the "C Minor Jazz Blues Backing Track" by Quist.
ASEF Podcast
Episode #44 (EN): Animal Dreams with David Peña-Guzmán: World of Animal Consciousness
Do animals dream? And if they do, what does it reveal about their minds, and our moral responsibilities toward them?
In this episode of the ASF Podcast, host Tanja Janko speaks with philosopher and author David Peña-Guzmán, whose book When Animals Dream explores the emotional, cognitive, and ethical dimensions of animal dreaming.
In this conversation, we unpack why dreaming is not just a human phenomenon, how animals’ dreams challenge our definitions of consciousness, and why dreams might be a powerful argument for animal rights.
Topics include:
- The SAM model of consciousness: Subjective, Affective, Metacognitive
- Wittgenstein’s lion and the limits of human-centered thinking
- Lucid dreams in animals (and why that might change everything)
- Why dreaming is a sufficient condition for consciousness
- The deep ethical implications for how we treat non-human animals
Time stamps:
00:00 Intro
01:20 How David Became Interested in Animal Dreaming
06:10 Challenges of Studying Dreams (Especially in Animals)
- Why dream research is difficult even in humans
- Methodological limits
13:30 Zebra Finches Dreaming of Songs
- Rats dream of mazes, but zebra finches rehearse their songs during REM sleep
- Challenged the view that dreaming is exclusive to mammals
- These birds move their throats as if silently singing while activating auditory + motor brain regions, suggests conscious rehearsal, not just unconscious memory consolidation
22:02 Dreams Require an Ego
- All dreams are subjectively anchored, there is always a “dream ego”
- Even if your dream body morphs (tentacles, flying, shrinking), you still have a perspective
- This implies animals who dream likely have a subjective point of view, or a self
28:50 The SAM Model of Consciousness
- Subjective: Ego/self-awareness
- Affective: Emotional experiences
- Metacognitive: Thinking about one’s own thoughts
39:50 Is thought fundamentally linguistic?
- Dreaming joins language, emotion, tool-use as once “unique” human traits
46:25 Wittgenstein’s Lion & “Philosophical Monsters”
- The idea of a non-conscious dreamer is a contradiction
- Dreaming is a lived, subjective experience = proof of consciousness
- Dreaming = sufficient (but not necessary) condition for consciousness
52:00 Dreams and Moral Status
- Consciousness is the foundation of moral concern, therefore animals who dream are conscious → they matter morally
1:09:00 Outro - Book recommendations
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